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BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM
pdq 15 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM
Jack Campin 15 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:18 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 15 Mar 11 - 01:23 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM
Little Hawk 15 Mar 11 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM
SINSULL 15 Mar 11 - 12:45 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM
Little Hawk 15 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM
josepp 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 10:40 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 15 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 09:21 AM
Jack Campin 15 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 15 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
SINSULL 15 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM
bobad 15 Mar 11 - 08:05 AM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 07:45 AM
Jack Campin 15 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 04:49 AM
Naemanson 15 Mar 11 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

Q-

Thanks for the update you've harvested from NHK News. That's more information than I've been able to find today.

I do owe apologies to several Forum members that I've jumped all over in my hurry to present my new information or point of view. Sandy certainly had a valid point to make about the difference between a nuclear bomb and a nuclear explosion at a power plant. Both would be horrible events but the nuclear bomb is designed to be more devastating.

I'm not sure where they store the "spent nuclear fuel" in the CANDO reactors after it is removed. But it has to be some place that is safe and secure because it remains highly radioactive (as is all high-level nuclear waste) for thousands of years. The advantage of "dry cask storage" that is being using at the old Maine Yankee site is that it's a passive system that requires no liquid coolant. That's not true of the "spent fuel pools" at the Fukushima reactors and that's another reason why units 4, 5 and 6 are of increasing concern.

I'll see what I can find out about spent fuel storage at the LePreau Nuclear Power Plant.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM

sIx... I was just out for a mercy run for mum... a large ice cap as she has been ill and her appetite is squat. Long story but I had to go to a Tim's further than 2kms away (There are three closer... fer fuck sake! Why don't they have fail safe redundant ice cap machines???!!!). When I was on the 4 lane a spit from me I realized that I am located just above sea level. My comment about the tsunami was justified but now I realize it's actually very much justified.

I'd rather meet at The Big Stop. Good grub. I expect they have Big Stops in heaven. Surely the Irvings have that franchise sewn up too? After all, KC was God at one time, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM

gnu .... out of curiosity I went to to Shopper's Drug Mart on Saturday ... one pharmacist didn't have a clue what they were ... another knew what they were but said they didn't carry them.

We're out of range of LePreau to be issued any ... so when when the reinforced concrete containment falls apart due to shoddy workmanship we're SOL

shoddy workmanship e.g. every 2 bit huckster contractor in the vicinity has been ripping off N.B power for $millions$ on the never ending refurbishment ... but then again the rate their going on that it will never be completed.

Anyway ... maybe ... hopefully out of this tragedy over in Japan nuclear power will become a thing of the past and other ways of producing bona fide clean power will become a reality ... after all the Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world ... that is power to create power ... and yes, it can be done.

so with that being said I'll stop my babbling gnu ... I'll meet at the Tim Horton's up in Salisbury (right by the Big Stop) when the big tidal wave hits .... :)

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM

sIx... I just heard on CBC NB that people living near LePreau are issued iodide pills fer free. You get any?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM

Sad fact is that there is nothing any of us can do to help.

Appologies to Tom Lehrer, but the Japanese reactor problems are enough to leave all of us "...feeling a bit like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM

I give up, Jack. Where is it stored? As it's non-enriched, what is it's propensity to generate heat and how could this be facilitated by, say, a dry environment, given that a lack of heavy water... well, I am a layman so I will have to leave it to the experts to educate me. Feel free Jack. I would appreciate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM

A tsunami ain't shit against twenty feet of re-con and redundant redundant redundant redundant auto and manual shutdown systems.

Where's the spent fuel stored?

Looks like a large part of the problem at Fukushima is with stuff that's had no fission activity for years. Shutdown systems aren't very relevant there.

North-east North America doesn't have much of a seismic problem, but it is at risk from hurricane damage and storm surges.

On-site waste storage is the predominant way of dealing with it in many countries. We are now seeing the implications.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM

gnu... "The guys at LePreau won't get the chance."

Yeah, I know. Don't make no sense. What I meant to say was... you know... illogical too. Sigh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:18 PM

Charley... "Major earthquakes appear unlikely but either one could be compromised by a terrorist raid from the ground, sea or air."

They would have to have a nuke to mess up LePreau.

sIx... "after all that has happened we are aware it isn't the earthquake that has caused the issues over in Japan but the ensuing 'tidal wave'."

A tsunami ain't shit against twenty feet of re-con and redundant redundant redundant redundant auto and manual shutdown systems. If there is a tsunami big enough to mess with LePreau, say hi to St. Peter for me. The guys at LePreau won't get the chance.

Of course, I live in Moncton and if the tsunami is that big I'll see you at the Tim's about an hour after you get there... hang a left just after the Pearly Gates. And DON'T forget to put in a good word for me with Pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM

SINS... indeed.

Sandy... I knew what you meant. I think Charley was just reading too fsat. He means well, you know. >:-)

LH... two hours by road. Hahahahaa. Good one.

sIx... LePreau is a CANDU built in one of the least active seismic zones in the world on ordovician (440 to 490M years ago) bedrock. The reinforced concrete containment was as thick as yer dick and it's been thickened during the refurbishment. The only seismic event that could fuck up LePreau is if the bedrock sheared vertically AT the reactor building and have more faith in me winning the $50M Lotto Max. CANDUs, as Sandy has pointed out, have redundant automatic and manual shutdown systems augmented by fail-safe, redundant automatic and manual powerless shutdown mechanisms.

If you are concerned about LePreau, a letter to the editor of the Telegraph lauding the actions by our new premier in shelving the study of having the French build a light water reactor instead of a CANDU for LePreau 2 should be a consideration.

Having said all that (which is a brief and partial "summary"), I see someone in Ontario won the $50M. Better get some fresh iodide pills next summer. Let me know if you find a good deal eh buddy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

NHKnews-
Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano states temperatures are rising at reators 5 and 6 due to malfunctioning of cooling systems caused by the quake.
He said workers were trying to prevent possible hydrogen gas explosions similar to that in the number four reactor.

All reactors now seem to be involved. Extent of damage at number 2 not known. The rods were completely exposed for 8 hours.

Injection of water into number 2 reactor is not yet stable. Early on Tuesday, radiation levels as high as 8217 microsieverts per hour were measured around the plant's main entrance, but have since dropped drastically. Detected levels in Tokyo "pose no health danger."
Tuesday, March 15, 18:53+ (0900)JST.

NHK ustream has clear, easily understood broadcasters. No tidal damage is expected from the 6.4 earthquake.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

Hey Charlie ... The point I was trying to make (I didn't cmake myself clear) was that this head guy from NB Power was going on about in the event of the possibility of an earthquake and how we shouldn't be concerned ... after all that has happened we are aware it isn't the earthquake that has caused the issues over in Japan but the ensuing 'tidal wave'.

Of course the odds are there probabbly won't be an earthquke of such magnitude here in N.B. ... but .....

Anyway ... Maine had the sense to close down it's nuke stations.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM

"And a word of praise for the incredibly brave people who have stayed on site to put out the fires and try to stop the meltdown. I could not have done that."

Yes you could, Mary.

Bravery is far more common that we suspect. Even in ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:22 PM

Bill-

Those of us who live in Maine are always aware of the nuclear power plants at Point Lapreau in New Brunswick and Seabrook in New Hampshire. Major earthquakes appear unlikely but either one could be compromised by a terrorist raid from the ground, sea or air.

As these power plants age, there are also concerns about embrittlement of their containment barriers.

We're happy that the owners of Maine Yankee finally say the wisdom of shutting down their nuclear power plant ten years early. Of course we're still left with tons of high level spent fuel in dry cask storage on site for the next ten thousand years or so.

No worthwhile updates from CNN or NSNBC.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM

L.H. ... I live rather close to Lapreau nuke station here on the Bay of Fundy.

Today at lunch the head of N.B. Power was on the CBC reassuring that the safety standards of this nuke power station (even though it is built on a fault line) are so that it can survive an earthquake of great magnitude and that we shouldn't worry. OK, ... there was no mention that the Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world .... so, in the event of an earthquake ... well, ... bottom line we put so much faith in our governments and coporations as such to ensure that our safety is foremost on their agendas. yeah right, everything is ok kids we're in good hands.

What is happening over in Japan is a tragedy that is beyond our comprehension .... the ensuing goat f**k with the nuclear reactors is evidence that our technology is also beyond our comprehnsion ... we can only hope that out of all of this there is something to be learned.

biLL
biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:23 PM

Charley the intent of my postings was not to argue. My point was that it will not create a nuclear explosion but chemical explosions spreading radioactive poison can be totally disastrous. What I see in your posts seems to say much the same thing. I said that U-238 is not fissile and enriched uranium of about 5% U-235 is required in a light water reactor. I also said that enrichment to about 85% U-235 is needed for an atomic blast. If this is incorrect then I stand corrected. I know that some isotopes of plutonium are fissile and can be created from U-238 under some conditions but they would have to be concentrated
before being atomically explosive. In no way am I saying by intent or ignorance that the situation is not critical!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

While we're waiting for further updates, here's a relevant review of Californian nuclear power plants, their design specs and their assumptions about earthquakes and tsunamies: click here for report!

What I find particularly disturbing is the San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant. It's located right on the coastal plain and is designed to survive a 7.0 earthquake and a 25-foot tall tsunami. Those are similar design specs to those that failed at Fukushima.

Someone will be sure to post next that I am comparing "apples with oranges" and I wish I were. Neither apples or oranges are likely to adversely affect the environment.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM

Hello G.E. (I knew it was you!)

Nukes make not only energy but weapons and don't think the Nuke Industry
is developing it's potent ecological disastrous energy policy just to run light bulbs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:04 PM

The Japanese are famous for that sort of altruistic self-sacrifice. It is very heroic indeed. The Russian firemen were similarly heroic at Chernobyl.

Had a look at that last explosion, Donuel. It looks a hell of a lot bigger than a hydrogen explosion, such as was seen earlier at those reactors. I am glad I don't live near any nuclear power plants. I think the nearest one is east of Toronto, along the shore of Lake Ontario, and that's considerably southeast of where I live...about 2 hours from here on the highway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM

I with you on that Sinsull .... they certainly are the unsung heros of this tragedy.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:45 PM

Still stunned at the dedication and bravery of 50 people who have agreed to remain and try to contain events at four (is it four now?) reactors. They are all heroes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

josepp-

"It happened, folks, get over it. Sitting there biting your nails doesn't improve the situation. Get on with your lives. Or at least find lives to get on with."

Hope you're having a very nice day.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM

WHAT???? You're suggesting calm? Acceptance of reality??? Dealing with what we can deal with and not obsessing about things that are way beyond our control?

What are you, some sort of dangerous, antisocial radical?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 PM

"50 millirems/"

"Reading in one location was about 4 Rems/Hour. At the site gate readings have dropped from slightly above 1 Rem/hour at 9:30 am (Tokyo time) to about 50 millirems/hour at 3:30 pm (Tokyo time)."

The plural of rem is rem not rems. Millirem not millirems. Rem is a measurement of biological destruction not a measure of radiation. That would be rads. How much of this stuff can you believe? Sitting there keeping track of every little new tidbit about this disaster seems to me to be highly unproductive and morbidly paranoid. It happened, folks, get over it. Sitting there biting your nails doesn't improve the situation. Get on with your lives. Or at least find lives to get on with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Shifting focus to the "spent fuel pools" at the Fukushima Complex and her is a link to a new graphic at Wikipedia which shows where they are located in this design: click here for update!

Each reactor has its own spent fuel pool and its located rather high up in the building which surrounds the reactor and its primary containment. Given there location they would appear to be highly vulnerable to the kind of explosions that have already taken place at Units 1, 2, and 3. After 40 years of operation they would be packed with still highly radioactive "spent fuel" rods, and if their coolant is lost through a breach or evaporation, they could indeed catch fire.

Evidently the spent fuel in Unit 4 did catch fire earlier today but the company claims that the fire was successfully put out. I'm puzzled why there was such a problem in this unit when it was already in cold-shutdown status, unless no one noticed that the spent fuel pool was no longer being supplied with coolant until it was too late.

There have been a number of human errors that have contributed to the unfolding catastrophe at Fukushima Complex 1. It's understandable that the workers might make errors in such an unprecedented emergency, but such errors have consequences. Evidently the workers at the neighboring Fukushima Complex 2 have been more successful in stabilizing their four reactors.

When this accident is reviewed I predict that its primary causes will be attributed to:

Failure to design the complex to the standards needed to survive a level 9 earthquake and tsunami

Human error in trying to stabilize the reactors after the cooling pumps failed.

Unlike other technologies for producing energy, nuclear energy is intolerant of major design failures and human errors, and the consequences can be catastrophic.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

radiation goes down all is stable and shut down



You see the rhetoric and the reality do not match.
That is because there are two simultaneouss stuggles.
One struggle is to contend with real catastrophic developments
and the other is to fight for the attention of public opinion.

Shaping public opinion is usually done to educate the masses to accept an ideology of big business and political figureheads to take money from the masses and apply it as business sees fit.

The sickening corruption of public opinion regarding this emerging radioactive disaster does not serve to placate and calm people but only serves to create total mistrust and as a result increases panic.

I should not have to explain this to intelligent people.


Academic discussions of how big a ball of PU does it take to create a spontaneous atomic blast is not the point. The point is that the Fukushima disaster is a world sickening event at proportions never even imagined before. The amount of nuclear fuel that has been released and the amount that is left unattended that may be released is near 6 figure metric tons of the most radioactive elements on Earth.

When facts are so grim that they are unbelievable, there are people of greed who will exploit the public for their own selfish profits at the cost of lives, property and the future.


To dismiss these events as a non event in the scheme of things , as some people are reporting on FOX news is worse than criminal, it is being an accomplice to murder...which is my opinion not to be confused with facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM

The summary that Donuel has posted above presents in my opinion an accurate picture of what appears to be happening at the Japan end, and correlates with what the Union of Concerned Scientists say in their morning summary.

Sandy-

You continue to muddy the waters with your basic misunderstanding about the fission process in a normal operating nuclear reactor. Please review some of the links above.

I also don't believe there will be nuclear explosion (equivalent to a nuclear bomb explosion) from a set of runaway reactors and spent fuel pools such as we are observing at the Fukushima 1 complex (with its 6 reactors). But there may be some kind of additional explosion or explosions as the reactors continue to melt down and the spent fuel pools continue to lose coolant which could fill the air with highly radioactive Cesium, Uranium, Plutonium and other isotopes. Do you disagree or do you just fail to comprehend what the potential danger is? I wish I knew a whole lot less about what might happen.

Now experts do disagree of exactly what might happen after a meltdown. The partial meltdown at Three Mile Island (and most people are unaware that there was such a meltdown since the report wasn't issued until a year later) was successfully contained within the containment dome. However, most experts now agree that the primary and secondary containment structures at Unit 2 at Fukushima are ruptured and that we are now in new territory with regard to what will happen next.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:40 AM

A powerful earthquake with a preliminary magnitude of 6.0 jolted central Japan on Tuesday night.

The Japan Meteorological Agency says the quake with an intensity of 6 plus on the Japanese seismic scale zero to 7 hit at 10:31 PM.

The focus of the quake is in the eastern part of Shizuoka Prefecture and is estimated to be at a depth of 10 kilometers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

I tried to post this earlier but it was lost in cyberspace.
Donuel, I am truly sorry about your sister. I do however question the source and accuracy of your postings.
The situation in Japan is truly awful and what may be to come perhaps worse. I claim no expertise in nuclear physics but rely on simpler dumbed down theory that I can comprehend.
The most prevalent fissile isotope of uranium is U-235 which is found in natural uranium at a concentration of between .7 and .8 of 1%. The much larger body of natural uranium is U-238 which is not fissile and is actually an impediment to a chain reaction. Fuel for light water reactors is enriched to a concentration of about 5% U-235.
U-235 of weapons grade must usually be above 85%. I believe that nuclear explosions, including the Hiroshima bomb, were created at about 80% U-235 by using a pressure cone containing neutron reflectors. At the concentration level of power plant fuel an atomic blast is not possible. However fission is attained by reaching a critical mass in a reactor core but the difficulty is as much in keeping the reaction going as regulating it. The byproducts of fission , not the explosive potential is where the danger of human disaster lies! Explosions of a chemical nature can be massive distributing radioactive poison far and wide and that is the real concern.   
Donuel you state "Go ahead and believe Sen Alexander or Bret Baier or even Glen Beck if you think it is the right point of view or the right thing to do."
I must admit in my ignorance that I have never heard of any of them. Who are they?
                                                                            Sandy


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM

segment of status report
stricken reactors at Fukushima nuclear power plants
TOKYO, March 15, Kyodo

The following is the known status as of Tuesday evening for each of the six reactors at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant and the four reactors at the Fukushima No. 2 plant, both in Fukushima Prefecture, crippled by Friday's magnitude 9.0 earthquake and ensuing tsunami.

Fukushima No. 1

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, hydrogen explosion, seawater pumped in.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, seawater pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, damage to containment system, potential meltdown feared.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater pumped in, hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire caused possibly by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, pool water levels feared receding.

-- Reactor No. 5 - Under maintenance when quake struck.

-- Reactor No. 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck.

Fukushima No. 2

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

==Kyodo


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:59 AM

Nuclear fears prompt rush for pills in B.C.


the following is a comment posted by a reader from that CBC news article .......

"Well, once again, we have to ask ourselves - can we believe what the governments and health agencies are telling us? Historically speaking, their reputation for being totally forthcoming is sadly very poor. On top of that, Japanese officials have kept assuring us all that nothing was going to happen, and yet, explosions keep happening and radiation keeps being released. And they have now increased the distance for people to "seal" themselves into their homes from 20 km to 30 km. That entire area should be evacuated, as sealing yourself in (with what I might add) will do nothing, unless they have some sort of bubble they can seal themselves into, with food and water, etc., and we know that is not happening. These people, this country, needs help. They also need to be told that building nuclear power plants in areas that are a high risk for earthquakes puts us all at risk. How much of this will end up in our oceans and our air and our soil? All more reasons for sourcing power from truly clean sources, like wind, tidal, and solar. In fact, clean nuclear power is an oxymoron. If there was never an accident, the waste it produces will destroy life for long after we are gone, and it keeps building up from these plants."

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM

Update of status of reactors at Fukushima, from Kyodo News agency


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:21 AM

Here's a more comprehensive summary of the worsening situation at the Fukushima complex from the Union of Concerned Scientists: click here for update!

There's the assumption here that both the primary and secondary containment structures have been compromised at the Unit 2 reactor.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM

Curies and sieverts measure different things. Curies measure how active a source is, sieverts measure how much damage a human has received.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation_units

Wind is dying down at Fukushima, heavy rain forecast, which will help keep radiation releases localized. Tomorrow the wind will get up and blow out to sea. Bye-bye to the fishing industry in the northern Pacific.

John Weldon appears to be technology's answer to Walkaboutsverse. I guess he has a financial stake in talking bollocks.

Those 50 workers staying behind are up there with the 47 Ronin. Let's hope their families get properly looked after.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM

I assume everyone has seen the hydrogen explosions that took the roof off the reactor buildings along with upper walls. Those hydrogen explosions and a bit higher than the light towers at the plant. Those were hydrogen pops compared to the explosion that has now cleared the plant.

I assume you did not see the new and fateful explosion that changed everything. This explosion was of the only thing left to explode at reactor 2. It is the containment vessel. IT reaches nearly 8,000 feet in seconds and continues to go higher. After this explosion over 700 workers were evacuated.

It is far more impressive in HD where you can see individual components of the vessel wreakage. But here is a quick low quality view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

Fukashima actual radiation readings are censored all this week and are subject to government scrutiny only.
however

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gamma-radiation-fukushima-downwind-ibaraki-disclosed-30-times-above-normal


US reports Tokyp either at slightly above normal to 10 times normal.

I am used to curies as a scale but Japan uses another. by their scale they say the N plant is at 420/hr and that 25/day is normal.

There are now 5 workers per Fukashima reactor who have vowed to stay despite the certainty of radiation sickness. IT is part of the Bushido code to bravely sacrifice oneself to the end no matter what the odds. There are 1- reactors in total at the Fukashima sites which makes a total of 50 workers who will work to the end.

between 700 and 800 other Fukawhima workers have been evacuated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

Here's the 8 am update from NIRS this morning:

"UPDATE 8:15 am, Tuesday, March 15, 2011. The situation at Fukushima is going from bad to worse. There was briefly a fire in the irradiated fuel pool at Unit 4. The fire is said to be extinguished for now.

Most disturbingly, Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) has evacuated all but 50 people from the reactor site. This skeleton crew (of heroic workers) is not likely to be enough to handle simultaneous crises at four reactors and four fuel pools. This may well be a sign that Tepco has given up hope that it can successfully contain this crisis and prevent full meltdowns.

Radiation levels at the site increased overnight (US time) but have dropped a little more recently. Reading in one location was about 4 Rems/Hour. At the site gate readings have dropped from slightly above 1 Rem/hour at 9:30 am (Tokyo time) to about 50 millirems/hour at 3:30 pm (Tokyo time).

Detectable (although still quite low) radiation levels have been recorded in Tokyo, nearly 200 miles to the south.

A 30 kilometer (18.6 miles) exclusion zone has been set up around the site. No one is being allowed inside this zone. However, only residents within 20 kilometers of the site so far have been evacuated; residents from 20-30 kilometers are being told to take shelter indoors.

There is no indication whatsoever that grid power will be available anytime soon. Without power to run safety systems and the clear inability to provide adequate backup power, there is unfortunately little likelihood this crisis can be contained."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM

The updates of what is happening at the neighboring Fukushima 2 complex in Naraha indicate that the situation there has been brought under control (from Wikipedia Fukushima II):

"After the March 11, 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami, Nuclear Engineering International reported that all four units were automatically shut down.[1] Tokyo Electric on March 12 reported that the cooling system for three reactors (numbers 1, 2 and 4) at the plant had topped 100 °C between 05:30 and 06:10 JST. This happened after the emergency core cooling systems had failed and less than one hour after the start of additional cooling with condensate water.[8][9][10] The emergency core coolant systems were repaired and acitivated in Units 1, 2 and 4 in the days following the emergency shutdown.[8] Coolant temperatures below 100°C (cold shutdown) were reached in reactor 2, about 34 hours after the emergency shut down (SCRAM).[8] Reactors 1 and 3 followed at 1:24 and 3:52 on 14 March and Reactor 4 at 7:00 on 15 March.[11]

Officials made preparations for release of pressure from the plant on March 12.[12][13] As of 14 March, however, no pressure release had taken place."

That is the good news this morning.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:29 AM

Please cite sources for follow-up.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

The latest is that radiation levels are now too high for staff to remain in the control rooms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

The general tone of Sandy's post is reassuring with regard to the possibility of a nuclear explosion at the Fukushima complex. That is the conventional wisdom. And we all hope it is correct.

However, Sandy's dead wrong with regard to nuclear fission, which is exactly what nuclear plants are designed to do in a controlled fashion to heat water, produce steam, and run turbines to generate electricity.

I'm not finding any clear information this morning on the details of what happened in the explosion reported last night at Unit 2, just conflicting reports. Evidently the fire was put out at the spent fuel in Unit 4 but unless the water flow is maintained in all six spent fuel pools at the Fukushima complex there will be additional fires and high level nuclear waste escaping into the surrounding downwind environment.

Nothing new at NIRS this morning and very little at Wikipedia Fukushima.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

And a word of praise for the incredibly brave people who have stayed on site to put out the fires and try to stop the meltdown. I could not have done that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:05 AM

This was posted by John Weldon on Facebook, I thought it worthy of being re-posted here:

"The saddest aspect of the Japanese tragedy is that the safest form of energy, nuclear power, will once again get a bad rap. When it goes wrong, it's dramatic and news-worthy. Thousands die. Whereas the millions who die by (and for) fossil fuel are just boring statistics."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:45 AM

I get it using IE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM

The NHK stuff requires some sort of plugin for you to watch it, so I haven't.

Of the sources I've looked at on the web, Russia Today seems to be providing the best combination of timeliness and quality in its coverage at the moment. BBC Live repeats way too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:49 AM

Thanks for the link. Just watched NHK. At 20 to 30km, stay indoors, use masks or wet towels if you have to go outdoors, don't eat things exposed to the air... frightening stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:39 AM

You should know that the news you are getting out of Japan is a little late. If you want up-to-the-minute news you should check out NHK World. That is the Japanese equivalent to PBS in the USA and it is in English. They have other languages for those more comfortable in their first tongue.

NHK World

My wife's family are all safe from the earthquake and the tsunamis(for those who didn't see one of my posts on other threads). Now the radiation may be blowing down over them. I'm going to suggest to Wakana that we invite them to stay with us in Guam for a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 AM

Sandy's post is just what we needed about now, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 AM

Why?
IT may be against treaty regulation but we are still building nuclear weapons. Breeder reactors are and always have been the PU factory that keeps on giving. We refine it at several locations. WAshington COlorado and TeNnesee. War is is racket and you can't have one without weapons.

We have a grand surplus especially from Russian missles we dismantle.
We do have a tritium shirrtage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 AM

U235 or U236 is not as potent as U238 but if you add PU and add certain temps and pressures from say 100 tons, it can cause an atomic like blast. Not well known but even 3 MIle Island faced near detonation levels. My only contention is that it is not true that there is 0% chance of atomic proportion explosions. Maybe it is best to leave that one untested possiblilty to "never say never".

I fully expected that Chicken Little would enter into the conversation. When I speak with unabashed honesty the charge of irresponsible is in my book over the top. But everyone has a different idea what the top is I suppose.

I admit I do not like nuclear plants. I never did even when I did not have a personal reason.


The personal reason I have had a vitriolic attitude toward nuclear power plants and radiation hazards, is the fact my only sister was killed by radioactive poisoning. During the cold war she was a test subject in the Army WAC for radioactive Iodine experiments. The 26 year horror of the slow necrotic death is too savage to tell in detail.

From the video I just saw of reactor #2, I believe my eyes over the polite but tense words of the TEPCO comapany spokesman who said the workers are evacuated, further release of radiation is expected and the levels are now immediately hazardous to human health. Stay indoors. If possible extend the evacuation area to 26 miles.


One last word about irrespondisibility.

In the face of these latest nuclear events, don't you dare direct irrespondsibility charges at me.

All of us will eventually come to know the people and companies who are truely irrespondsible, even if only for the most simple and ignoranat mistake.

Go ahead and believe Sen Alexander or Bret Baier or even Glen Beck if you think it is the right point of view or the right thing to do.

I have been as forth coming and as honest as I know how to be.
In critical matters I continue to believe it is paramount to be critically honest and still try to find the time to laugh when we can.


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