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BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 06:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 19 Mar 11 - 01:25 PM
Stringsinger 19 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Mar 11 - 01:15 PM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 12:09 PM
Jack Campin 19 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 11:58 AM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 11:21 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 09:55 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 07:10 AM
Jack Campin 19 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 06:21 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM
Jack Campin 18 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM
Charley Noble 18 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM
Charley Noble 18 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM
Jack Campin 18 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM
Charley Noble 18 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM

Critics of the Fukishima complex pointed out two possible design flaws, and Nishiyama of the nuclear safety committee agreed.
1. Provision for strong earthquake but no provision for tsunami waves. This possibility was considered and provisions made at some other reactor complexes.
(See previous post. At Daini complex, provision was made. The tsunami wave was a little higher, but wet conditions easily corrected).
2. Emergency power generators not placed inside the building complex, and were damaged as a result- apparently they were inside at some other reactor complexes.

Hard to keep one eye on Japan, one on Libya and a third eye on the NCAA basketball tournament. Some good games!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:13 PM

NHK... one of the guys that went in today on the "spray team" was just on video... he said that they were able to direct the spray in the right spot and radiation levels went to zero.

I will watch it again as these broadcasts cycle frequently but that is what I heard the translator say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM

No. Movement of tectonic plates is the cause of disastrous earth movements. These operate regardless of human activity.
Avoid by living on the Canadian shield or similar relatively stabile part of the globe. Of course the Canadian choice goes along with higher probability of freezing to death in our dark and drear winters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM

Thanks for that Q. Good quotes.

Peter... don't discard the global warming/earthquake hypothesis out of hand. Although it seems likely that global warming would have an insignificant influence the fact remains that it is possible.

Raise the ocean level a mm and cause an earthquake??? Not likely. But it's the final straw that breaks the camel's back. No?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM

The comtaminated milk and spinach were found near the Fukushima plant. The levels not inmmediately pose a risk to human health.--

Limits and guidelines have been set by U. S., Japanese, and other agencies. We do not know what long-term exposure to low levels does- too few incidents on which to base data (as if we would want more).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

From Japan Times-
Three experts, from Northwestern Univ.(3), Franciscan Univ.(2), and Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency(1), say it is too early to consider burying the reactors.
(1) Not a realistic option at this time. In the future, after the radiation has cooled, as part of long term strategy.
(2) Structures that confine the radioactivity could be damaged by dumping of sand and other matterials. Such sand dumps were part of the containment at Chernobyl. Fukushima is different, the reactors are surrounded by multiple barriers designed to contain radiation from the reactor cores. If a heavy dumping cracked the inner vessels and exposed the reactor cores, "that would be absurdity." Dr. Alex Sich, nuclear engineer, is an expert on Chernobyl.
(3) Other risks focus on the spent fuel rods. While pouring tons of sand on the rods would block radiation from escaping, it wouls also insulate them and make them heat up faster. The heat could decompose the concrete floor, allowing the rods to fall through, which could complicate efforts to contain the radiation, said Elmer Lewis of Northwestern (he has consulted on reactor issues with U. S. National Labs.
(2) Spraying of dust-supressing materials that was done at Chernobyl is recommended by Sich. This in combination with sprayers to tamp down the dust.
(3)Lewis said the time to entomb the reactors with concrete might come when the radioactive materials have cooled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:25 PM

Earthquakes and tsunamis, New Zealand, Banda Ace, Haiti, and now Japan should be a marker for the global warming deniers

Linking earthquakes to global warming is a few steps beyond credibility I am afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

Advocating nuclear energy is a form of contemporary insanity. There is only one real solution to the problem of energy, research and development on alternative non-destructive methods, solar, wind, and science that helps rather than destroys mankind.

Also, cutting down on the use of energy rather than cutting into budgets and crying poor when it comes to a meaningless "deficit".

Earthquakes and tsunamis, New Zealand, Banda Ace, Haiti, and now Japan should be a marker for the global warming deniers. The water table rises, the earth shakes and
there are those who advocate for new nuclear plants especially on fault lines?
Crazy, crazy and more crazy. Obama now included.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:19 PM

Aerial video is available. NHK has had some.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:15 PM

Would they be shielded from view from an areal ? photo or are they covered? Are there not drones being sent up with cameras? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM

Jack-

"That depends not just on WHAT has been emitted but also on HOW MUCH of it there is."

I entirely agree but I am far more pessimistic than you, perhaps, about what they will eventually be reporting.

Damage assessment of the reactor building via video can detect the most obvious damage, but not cracks in the primary containment or within the spent fuel pools that are still shielded from view.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 12:09 PM

More clear this time... the reactor itself is not damaged... but you can see the exterior of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM

I certainly agree that even if there is no further damage (which seems unlikely to me) it will be ten years or more before the radiation damage at the site and in the downwind area is mitigated. Some areas may need to be permanently classified as a "dead zone."

That depends not just on WHAT has been emitted but also on HOW MUCH of it there is. It doesn't look from what I've read that the emissions to date require measures anywhere near that drastic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM

That video is up again


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 11:58 AM

5 and 6 are fine. 1 and 2 may be fine if they can get the pumps and switchgear in service fast enough. 3 and 4 pools may be stabilized. But 3 and 4 reactors... I saw a video on NHK and it's worth a boo. A prof from a university was commenting on the video and pointed to the damage of the 3 reactor. No assessment of 4 reactor is available. It's difficult to make out on the small screen but it looks bad. NHK cycles these videos quite often.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

There may be some progress in mitigating the fuel meltdown and risk of a fuel fire at some of the reactors at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, after watching the morning news on CNN and NSNBC but it's really hard to judge without having a systematic review, reactor by reactor, and no one is doing that. It's possible that no one is in position to do that.

I expect that even when electricity is available on-site, little of the machinery at reactors 1, 2, 3, and 4, will be functional after being damaged by explosions, irradiated, and sprayed with salt water. But electricity would be very useful for powering new external pumps, and new monitoring equipment. Evidently full power has been restored to reactors 5 and 6 which are at the other end of the complex.

I certainly agree that even if there is no further damage (which seems unlikely to me) it will be ten years or more before the radiation damage at the site and in the downwind area is mitigated. Some areas may need to be permanently classified as a "dead zone."

In addition to radioactive iodide, cesium, plutonium, there are dozens of radioactive isotopes that could be ejected in a smoke plume from the plant complex if there were additional fires, and most of them are harmful to life for longer than 10,000 years.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 11:21 AM

Jakarta Globe...

Tainted milk was found in Fukushima prefecture while contaminated spinach was discovered in neighbouring Ibaraki prefecture, chief government spokesman Yukio Edano told reporters.

The milk was found more than 30 kilometres (20 miles) from the plant, beyond a government exclusion zone.

But Edano urged consumers to remain calm, saying that even if a person were to drink the contaminated milk for a year, the radiation level would be the equivalent of one CT hospital scan.

"The government will do its utmost... to avoid health hazards and to resolve this problem," he said.

Abnormal levels of radioactive iodine were found in the water supply in Tokyo and several prefectures near the power plant, a science ministry official said.

Traces of radioactive caesium were also found in tap water in Tochigi and Gunma prefectures, but the levels of both elements were well below the legal limit, the official said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM

If everything does not get worse than it is today in Fukushima, clean up will take 12 to 15 years for the plant and 25 years for the cesium 137 contaminated soils as far as 50 miles away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM

biLL, Rhetoricly we say a meltdown will continue but the actual dropping of melting uranium into the ground at the shore of the sea has not yet happened as far as we are told. But scientists continueo say the process has begun but as long as workers can continue to try and mitigate the situation there is still hope that it can be contained sometime with the next 2 months to a point where it will not start boring into the sand and rocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 09:55 AM

Right on Donuel.

The current meltdown in Japan is becoming sadly 'old news' now ... Our attention will be diverted away to other events in the world by the commercial news media. The damage to Japan from the meltdown will continue, eating away making this region a complete toxic wasteland affecting the environment and humanity for years to come.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM

Chernobyl took 30,000 tons of concrete to encase and repairs after it continues to crack.

The Uranium is still burning underground and where water comes close to it and peroclates back to the surface you can have one little sq. foot area of very deadly radiation while 6 feet away it is nominal.

The half ife of some of the radioactivity is half the age of the universe while Plutonium is only 25,000 years.

Japan faces the real consequence of being cut in to in terms of a death zonem but worse yet is that the sea will transmit radioactivity with ferocious certainty as much as the wind.

What will it take for a lasting reevaluation of the risks and costs outweighing the benefit? A meltdown in France?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:10 AM

That kinda crane wouldn't work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM

I wonder if they have any cranes in Japan?

Fancy being a tower crane operator in a glass cab 100 feet up in a cloud of radioactive steam?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:21 AM

They have to wash and inspect the pumps in #1,2,4 before they can energize.

44 engines from Tokyo fire department on site. More coming from elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

NHK... Temps of #1,2,3,4 less than 100C. 7 hours of spraying # 3 building today. Getting ready to spray #4 building. Power to be connected to #2 soon, then to #4. #6 is up and running without generator. # 5 is also powered without generator and pump is operational (not clear if it is fully operational). They "believe" the spray is getting to the pool but they just don't know. The pumper vehicles are unmanned due to high radiation. The armed pumper truck (closest) battery died but the pump truck connected to it has enough pressure to feed it.

I wonder if they have any cranes in Japan? Surely they could mount a hose and deliver water more efficiently? If they can't get workers to these unmanned vehicles won't ALL the vehicles eventually go u/s?

In two prefectures milk and spinach are not fit for consumption. Radiation levels are up and down but, from what I could gleen, they are seriously high. The armed pumper truck battery died but the pump truck connected to it has enough pressure to feed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM

That's the biggest selling point for the CANDU... no lid. It can be refueled without shuting it down and it's just plain safer in shutting down. Not that that has anything to do with this discussion. It would just be a good thing if "the world" spent the extra money and used this design in lieu of the other designs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM

The "seals" I was talking about are for the removable lid of the reactor primary containment, and there were seals. They just weren't designed well enough, as shown by the 1970's test in Brunswick, North Carolina, and leaked at a pressure reading before workers would normally vent out hydrogen directly out of the containment. For clarity, please read what the Union of Concerned Scientists had to say this morning. And yes, it's like a leaky head gasket in a forty year old car. The question is whether the seals were upgraded by the Japanese after the North Carolina test. Or if they were upgraded, did they still fail. What we do know is that there were hydrogen explosions in units 1 and 3, which blew out the upper walls and roof of the containment buildings. Unit 4 was decimated evidently from a hydrogen explosion from its spent fuel pool. Unit 2 evidently has an internal explosion which cracked the primary containment of its reactor but the reactor building looks reasonably intact. I think I'm keeping the score correctly but I'm no longer entirely sure.

The lid of the primary containment has to be "removable" so that the fuel rods can be periodically moved in and out of the reactor vessel, in case anyone is wondering why there is a lid at all.

I haven't seen any update on the results of power being restored on site at Fukushima 1 nuclear complex. That's a biggy.

Charley Noble, back from a hard evening's work at the Sidedoor Coffeehouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM

What are the problems with encasement? Long-term radiation in the area I believe I read. Sounds better than some of the alternatives. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM

And another new one reported by the BBC:

2110: AP reports that Greece is urging Turkey to halt plans to build a nuclear power plant. Turkey's first such plant is planned for Akkuyu, in the south, under a deal with Russia. Both Greece and Turkey are earthquake-prone.

The interesting thing about that is that Turkey had previously been planning a reactor at Sinop, on the Black Sea. (There was a sizable local protest about it when I was there a few years ago). Looks like the Russians gave Turkey an incentive to move it into somebody else's backyard. I wonder why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:26 PM

It won't take a lot of sand and crete to begin the process of encasement. And, we are talking days, not hours, as has been the case from the start. It's not like a grenade pin was pulled... more like a time bomb was set ticking. (Sorry for that analogy but that's the situation.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

submarines can be made watertight.

Don't they have tanker trucks there for water? Or whatever...lots of fire trucks standing by in a picture but I don't see tanker trucks. Do they go to the sea and fill from there? WHich is OK..

What about provisions for gas..probably not great in an explosion.

Are there signs of concrete trucks being brought in? Loads of sand? When do they plan to start stockpiling? Or have they? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM

NHK... most of the motors and switchboards were damaged by the tsunami waters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM

Reason for increase to level 5 on scale-

"The provisional evaluation stands at level 5 for the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactors, as their cores are believed to have partially melted and radiation leaks continue, Japan's nuclear safety agency said.
"The agency set the level at 3 for the plant's No. 4 reactor, where an overheating spent fuel pool is also posing risks, and two reactors at the power plant that were undergoing maintenance when the quake struck."
Japan Times, Sat. 19, 2011, "Workers Battle Against Time."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110319a1.html

Two diagrams with the article show routing of reconstructed power cables from the switching station.

I had seen some statements about possible meltdown at three reactors; I had discounted them because of relatively low levels of radiation outside of the plant. Looks like there is still some question, but the paper indicates possible partial meltdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM

Q... huh? You don't think a building can be made watertight? PC chip manufactures build airtight buildings. It ain't rocket science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM

Charlie- that was at Daini, design 6.51 meters, water reached 7 meters. Damage minimal, some flooding to pump rooms as I noted. Cold shutdown carried out without problems.
----------------------

Seal for buildings, etc, why not hang them from a sky hook? Get real!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM

That is 20 feet. We are told all the time here to expect 60 feet on the other side of the ocean. What df's. And it depends on whether it is gently rising like filling a bathtub, or a smash of water that would hit a wall and go over it, or a huge wave of debris smashing. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

Well, if you pour billions of litres of water over a wall for a while it's gonna add up. Might even get in the doors. Maybe the next time they will make the buildings waterproof... or move the generators up in elevation.

They didn't even provide a seal for the buildings!! WTF? Now, I have said I have problems with politicians and accountants pinching pennies but IF this design ommission was caused by skinflints, the engineers who accepted their directives were definitely NOT doing their jobs. This is one of those cases when the engineers have no way out of the blame they deserve.

I know I could go to engineer hell for saying that publically (seriously) but it's the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM

Q-

"Daini was designed to withstand tsunamai of 6.51 meters; the level reached was 7 meters."

It's hard to believe that a tsuanmi that close to design specs could do so much damage. But they should be able to measure what level the tsunami reached with reasonable accuracy.

Of course the entire coast is said to have sunk a bit during the earthquake as well.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

Q... "...and deserve our thanks for their efforts."

Indeed they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

Other nuclear complexes on Sendai coast-

All reactors at Onagawa, Daini and Tokai nuclear complexes now on cold shutdown.
A fire in the turbine bldg. at Onagawa was extinguished.
Daini was designed to withstand tsunamai of 6.51 meters; the level reached was 7 meters. Flooding to pump rooms at 1, 2 and 4 reactors.
Tokai reactors on cold shutdown.

Control is slowly being re-establishd at Daiichi complex; the no. 4 reactor is still not controlled.

The Tepco engineers and workers seem to be doing their best to lessen the dangers, and deserve our thanks for their efforts. Two workers have died and several are in hospital, condition not announced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM

I might have to send Glorious Leader Kim over there. Between him and the Somali Pirates I think we will get her done. I think our universities here, including one I work for, have been noticeably quiet in terms of suggestions etc. Perhaps they are quietly corresponding..I imagine they are..but some suggestions need to be made public.

Glorious Leader not Kim said they are considering moving people from the tsunami hit areas..old people who are dying of cold, lack of medicine, lack of food, into non-hit areas. Now there is a thought. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

mg-

There are large gaps in this narrative, some because of the reports we receive, some because certain options weren't even considered in the early stages of this continuing disaster. We won't know what exactly happened till years from now, if then.

Gnu-

Glad you read through the Union of Concerned Scientists update (above link). That is one of the conclusions. One wonders if there was any attempt by the Japanese to address this evident problem, assuming they were even informed.

The reactor units at Fukushima-2 nuclear complex are newer models and maybe that's why they were able to bring them back to cold shutdown without a hydrogen explosion under similar conditions. Making sense out of this evolving situation is a therapeutic exercises I indulge in; makes me think I have control over chaos. Whatever!!!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM

I read one report that said they could not get close enough to get radiation readings so they took them from a moving car. Do they not have robots that could be sent closer?

And are there hydraulic engineers to be heard from? Pictures do not look like plant is far from sea..as in right on seacoast..say it is 2 miles..I think I read 2 KM or 1.6 miles..but it looks closer on pictures...anyway, we pipe water all the time. If they need to store it closer, bomb a crater and make a big pond. Do I have to go over there and take over?

And now talk of cementing the whole thing. What are issues involved in that? Do you want to bet they don't have a stockpile of cement on hand even though they have had a week to assemble it, as though it should not have been on hand in the first place.

Do they have water to mix in concrete? Are they assembling that? Can seawater be used in cement? I doubt it but maybe.

The whole world needs to chime in here with suggestions and shock. THis is not merely an act of nature. An act of nature would have been a 20 point earthquake. We have been told to expect 9s forever and ever. It is not a surprise.

It is an act of major governmental and industrial incompetence, and great lies and dishonesty, as reports coming out (Reuters) are showing.   mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

According to the BBC today:

1630: Chile and the US have signed a nuclear energy agreement despite the ongoing situation at Japan's Fukushima nuclear power plant. Chile is also on the Pacific Ring of Fire and has its share of powerful earthquakes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM

WHAT? They didn't know the max working pressure? That just fuckin floors me!!!

And they are still in charge... scarey indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

UPDATE ON FUKUSHIMA-1 NUCLEAR MELTDOWN

I just re-checked the Union of Concerned Scientists website and they have an excellent explanation which seems to explain why the hydrogen explosions occurred in the upper portions of the reactor buildings' secondary containment structure: click here for report!

There's also an improved graphic that I find useful for understanding the design of the reactor building and its major components.

In summary, when the back-up pumps failed the temperature began to increase within the reactor vessel and reached a point where hydrogen gas was being produced. At a certain point (at an elevated pressure) the engineers attempted to vent the hydrogen gas to the outside. Evidently before they did that the seals above the reactor vessel began to leak hydrogen gas into the secondary containment structure, which subsequently ignited and exploded (think leaky head gasket).

This type of problem was first identified for this kind of reactor design from tests taken back in the 1970's at a nuclear reactor in Brunswick, North Carolina. It's unclear what if anything the Nuclear Regulatory Commission did with these test results. Damn!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

Just saw another guy... cabinet secretary... steam was observed after spraying water in a building so it got to the pool.

Still kinda sketchy but a bit more precise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM

"The heat... risen 3%... Radioactive substances are being emitted to outside of the plant... raising to Level 5..." misister.

Translation was sketchy and I listened to it twice. AND, if they are only going to measure temps Saturday???

It's difficult to get a true picture as they use the words plant, reactor, building and others in a confusing manner. Now I don't know if steam was coming off the #3 reactor or the spent fuel pool(s) in #3/#4. or all of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

They are going to try to get power to #2 through #1. Hmmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM

BBC... Japan has raised the alert level at its quake-damaged nuclear plant from four to five on a seven-point international scale of atomic incidents.


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Mudcat time: 5 June 7:44 PM EDT

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