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BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Donuel 04 Apr 11 - 09:32 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM
GUEST 04 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM
Jack Campin 04 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Apr 11 - 05:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,999 04 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 01:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,999 04 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM
SINSULL 04 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 07:36 AM
Ebbie 03 Apr 11 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 10:08 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 08:49 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM
SINSULL 03 Apr 11 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM
SINSULL 03 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 05:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 04:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM
gnu 03 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM
SINSULL 03 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 09:44 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 07:41 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 07:13 PM
Stringsinger 02 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM
gnu 02 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 03:33 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 09:32 PM

About 2000 tons of fuel plus the radioactive water (which is heavy)
probably is close to 10000 tons of deadly mess


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM

that was me above of course committed to saving the planet. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM

THe way I read it the filter (oh maybe just one in all the world) does exist and the nanofibers exist..certainly not in quantity I am pretty sure. But here is a real live test they can do on a few prototypes..measure flow of a small area against how much is trapped.

And everyone in the world had best put their heads together on this..some ideas will be foolish and some will be flops and perhaps one will work. Or is better to be cynical if not nasty to people trying to help?

And something is going to filter this stuff sooner or later..baleen whales? Shellfish? Don't know. mg

from article about ceramic scientist

(Graphic: Zhu)
Water contaminated in nuclear power applications and other situations where radiactive elements used can be a significant problems, especially because of the volume compared to the actual amount of radiactive particles. What if there was a fairly simple way to run the water through a filter and remove those materials? Queensland University of Technology's Zhu Huai Yong says he has just such a filter. ......But Zhu's forté is ceramic filters. Zhu thinks there has to be a better way of storing contaminated fluids like water other than to put them in barrels or lakes. His idea involves ceramic fibers that will capture and "outlive" the decaying material.

"We have created ceramic nanofibres which attract and trap radioactive cations (positively charged ions), possibly forever," Zhu said. "The ceramic material can last a very long time, much longer than the radioactivity of a radioactive ion. The fibres are in very thin layers, less than one nanometre in width, and the radioactive ions are attracted into the space between the layers. Once the ceramic material absorbs a certain amount, the layers collapse to lock the radioactive ions inside."
Zhu's fibers are made from titanium dioxide, and are about 40 microns in length. In an interview with Nanowerk, Zhu explained some of the details behind his filter:

"Natural inorganic cation exchange materials, such as clays and zeolites, have been extensively studied and used in the removal of radioactive ions from water via ion exchange and are subsequently disposed of in a safe way. However, synthetic inorganic cation exchange materials – such as synthetic micas, g-zirconium phosphate, niobate molecular sieves, and titanate – have been found to be far superior to natural materials in terms of selectivity for the removal of radioactive cations from water. Radioactive cations are preferentially exchanged with sodium ions or protons in the synthetic material. More importantly, a structural collapse


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM

If this does not go on for 20 years I for one will be very happy. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

mg - the ceramic filters you are talking about clearly DO NOT EXIST, from what the story says. They are a blue-sky idea that has never yet been tested experimentally, let alone put into production.

The Fukushima workers need to deal with tens of thousands of tons of dangerously radioactive water RIGHT NOW. They can't wait 20 years for the perfect product, nor can they afford to move in shiploads of stuff that has no proven record of doing anything at all (like hemp or volcanic ash).

Your speculations are offensively condescending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:39 PM

General Electric continues to have a team of 1000 engineers (employees and retired) working with TEPCO.
All of the plant's reactors were designed by GE.
GE is sending gas turbines to help deal with the power shortfall of 10 million kilowatts expected this summer.
Associated Press, writers, in Huffington Post, April 4, 2011.

The dye added to the suspected leak did not reach the sea. The leak is not from the crack in the pit.
(Same report)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM

Radiation exposure times for Ibaraki Prefecture, others adjacent, plotted in charts, Japan Times, April 5.

For Ibaraki today, it would be equivalent to 320-360 weeks = sufficient exposure to cause radiation sickness (interactive chart).
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/radiation-visualization.html

Ibaraki


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM

Thanks to both Charlie and the Mod for that link. Much appreciated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM

here is one that attracts strontium through volcanic rock

http://buffalo.ynn.com/content/top_stories/521927/treatment-wall-to-filter-radioactive-waste/

One thing we have here in WA is lots of volcanic ash from Mt. St. Helen's..it has now grown over with weeds and trees and looks like little hills and dikes but underneath is almost solid ash. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM

You can google radioactive waste filter and come up with stuff.

Here is a ceramic one
http://ceramics.org/ceramictechtoday/materials-innovations/quts-zhu-has-ceramic-filter-for-radioactive-waste/

Do you want to put bets on whether IIC (stands for Idiots In Charge) have even contacted him/her or anyone?

Someone on somewhere suggested hemp can filter. There are other filters possible it seems. This is good news. Oh goodness, we will have to go through our regular purchasing department and they are backed up. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/04/japan-nuclear-plant-radiation_n_844436.html

Mentions the dye used. I have wondered for days why they don't pump dye through to find out where cracks are. That is standard practice in some areas...

But why did they not use commercial dyes? It says they used salts used to make bathwater milky white. Why not bright red or pink dye made for some sort of purpose? What are they thinking? How can you tell milky white from regular ocean foam sometimes? At least as well as red dye. Who is in charge? Who did they consult?

Question every single thing they do because it probably needs it. Do not assume they have consulted with anybody, they have experts of their own on hand etc. Do not assume that they will act quickly even to just position supplies should they need them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM

999-

"Ken'ichi Kunisawa and his fellow firefighters braved boiling nuclear reactors for more than 13 hours. He talks to Lennox Samuels about radiation fears and why this wasn't a kamikaze mission."

Here's your link: click here!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:32 PM

Again I wonder why they can't make, or better yet, get someone else to make, a moat of some type to hold the water and then repump it. Someone suggested filtering. Can you filter these particles? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM

The catch-22 situation. Water is needed to cool the pools and reactors, radioactive water reaching the sea is increased. No storage possible except for the most radioactive waters.

It now is evident that melting took place in two reactor cores.
The workmen are limited in some places to as little as two minutes exposure. The examination cannot be examined close up.

The situation rivals Chernobyl.
Many early deaths from cancers in the coming years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-04-03/a-japanese-firefighter-on-surviving-the-nuclear-reactors-and-radiation/2/

Would someone please make a blue clicky from that? neat view from a fellow who was there. Thank you. Yer welcome. --Mod


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

And meantime, half a million people are homeless.
Today's news: it will be months before the cooling system is fully functional and years before the clean up is complete. 15,000 tons of radioactive water will be dumped into the ocean to join the leaking pollution which now is still a mystery.

The sky may not be falling but I for one do not believe that this will not affect fish supplies. I keep seeing a chart in school of a tiny fish eaten by a bigger fish eaten by a bigger fish etc. Each time a little more radiation is concentrated in the bigger fish. Fish move around the ocean and get eaten or die. Then lobsters and crabs feed on them.

Speculation over. I feel better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:36 AM

Ebbie-

Yes, this nuclear disaster is a massive and messy problem.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:48 PM

It seems to me that it should be noted that this whole complex is not the size of a Portland mall. We are speaking of tens of thousands of tons that have to be contained or neutralized, not a thousand pounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:08 PM

The nuclear sites are right on the water. If every road was down there was still the sea and we are talking for the most part about very obtainable supplies..food, water, safety gear, cots, blankets. To say nothing of generators, hoses, etc. There was also the air. Helicopters etc. would be in short supply but this would be extremely high priority. And there are other countries who were trying to provide assistance. They could have walked troops or volunteers over some of the roads, torn up to be sure, but they looked walkable to me. THere are carts, animals, bicycles. Viet Cong could have figured it out. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:49 PM

No, it wasn't TEPCO. According to Wikipedia it was an experimental fast breeder sodium cooled plant called Monju run by a governmental agency called Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation: Click here for report!

"Monju Sodium Leak and Fire

On December 8, 1995, the reactor suffered a serious accident. Intense vibration caused a thermowell inside a pipe carrying sodium coolant to break, possibly at a defective weld point, allowing several hundred kilograms of sodium to leak out onto the floor below the pipe. Upon coming into contact with the air, the liquid sodium reacted with oxygen and moisture in the air, filling the room with caustic fumes and producing temperatures of several hundred degrees Celsius. The heat was so intense that it melted several steel structures in the room. An alarm sounded around 7:30 p.m., switching the system over to manual operations, but a full operational shutdown was not ordered until around 9:00 p.m., after the fumes were spotted. When investigators located the source of the spill they found as much as three tons of solidified sodium.

Fortunately, the leak occurred in the plant's secondary cooling system, so the sodium was not radioactive. However, there was massive public outrage in Japan when it was revealed that Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation (PNC), the semigovernmental agency then in charge of Monju, had tried to cover up the extent of the accident and resulting damage. This coverup included falsifying reports and the editing of a videotape taken immediately after the accident, as well as the issuing of a gag order to employees regarding the existence of the real tapes."

Not a pretty incident and fortunately not a disaster. But certainly a major cover-up.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM

Sinsull-

I also cut TEPCO some slack because of that. The earthquake and tsunami were well above what reasonably might have been expected.

However, TEPCO does have a long record of covering up "incidents" in the nuclear facilities they run and the Japanese media does not aggressively challenge corporations when they do such misdeeds. I also don't have the references for these statements. I suppose I ought to do some more homework, or maybe someone else will track down some relevant articles. I'm probably thinking of a book published by Green Peace some 15 years ago which provided an international overview of what was happening.

Was it also TEPCO who was mismanaging the fast breeder sodium cooled plant in Japan about ten years ago which almost went critical? I remember reading about a group of workers who were sent in with garbage cans to clean up the mess... Maybe it all was a bad dream but just for fun, Q, you might do a Google search and correct my ancient memory.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:09 PM

I wonder if the destruction caused by first an earthquake, then a tsunami and lastly by continuing aftershocks might be playing a role in delays in getting manpower and supplies to the nuclear sites. I believe communications might have been affected as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM

If they die, and as they die, I want them to at least have basic comforts of food and water, and the thanks of a grateful nation/world. I want them to have safety equipment and monitoring.   I want the truth to be extracted from this company and I at the very least want it stripped of its nuclear programs..that should be turned over to some other entity. I want names of who signed off on false safety inspections in the past, and investigations to how recently this has happened...certainly in the 2000s, when executives were forced to retire over this. And now is the time to squawk, because lives are at stake. When all safety issues have been resolved then I will be sweet as sugar candy. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM

Which was not a response to you. I will not be responding to you, although I did have a post that got lost that did give some good links, which are easily found on google. I do not engage personally with people that I believe are unhealthy to me. So last personal response.

I am wondering again why they can not reuse the contaminated water to cool things down. Is it too hot? Too contaminated? Oh goodness all pumps are in Taiwan at the present time? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM

" They are undoubtedly unable to speak up without fear of reprisal in some situations."

Source? THere are and have been protests and outspoken criticism of the placement of these plants for years. There are demonstrations reported daily in Japan against the use of nuclear power since the earthquake. The mayor/governor of the province surrounding the plant has been apoplectic in his criticism and anger at both the government and Tokyo Electric.
The only "reprisals" I have read of are the shunnings of refugees from the affected areas. Old fears of deformed babies and radiation contamination have resurfaced. Even hospitals are refusing to treat children from the fallout area.
And I can find the source for that if I have to.

Right now we have only part of the story. Time will prove out who cut corners, compromised safety or simply made business decisions that appeared viable at the time. Hopefully, the world will have learned enough to prevent this happening again...but I doubt it.

Just a thought - until a few weeks ago, Tokyo Electric was a model citizen enabling Japan to provide a modern, healthy life for its citizens. I do not for one minute believe that anyone in the company played the Hollywood role of the Evil Corporate Monster whose greed put everyone and anyone in jeopardy. Sometimes, shit happens. When it does, we learn and move on. Or not. The executives and workers of Tokyo Electric are making themselves physically ill while trying to contain the damage. Some will die.

We are just finding out that similar nuclear plants exist here in the US on unacceptable sites endangered by earthquake probability. So - have we learned from Japan? Or will we wring our hands, tut tut a lot and forget about it when the baseball season takes over the front page?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM

Which is a review of the leadership of Tepco president Shimizu and his illness-

WSJ also carried two emails from workers on the reactors. Nothing about lack of equipment, numbers affected, etc., but they do indicate that the plant is like a war zone (which it certainly is).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:32 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704559904576231742989493576.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM

Again, source?

Or do you just like to falsify and/or invent reports?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 04:53 PM

More than 2.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 04:34 PM

"Falsifying reports"? Not in the Portland Oregonian.

The report about the two workmen without the protective footware is old and was reported by the company.
A shortage of suits on site was reported by the company, but no one was sent into contaminated areas without them.

The company has been accused of being close-mouthed by the government and news media, but now seems to be reporting more fully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM

I will say corrupt. What is falsifying safety reports other than corrupt? And how did they get them through the system?

And there was a story in today's Oregonian about not only were they short of the booties to wear but the safety suits in general. How could they not get supplies like this in?

I would add so stupid that words do not describe it..I was talking to a journalist yesterday and asking her for words that are beyond inept, incompetent etc. There are no words for this level of incompetence. And the Japanese people, and especially the workers in the complex, need to know that we are watching this and speaking up for their safety and welfare. They are undoubtedly unable to speak up without fear of reprisal in some situations.

Well, I hope the fix that they are trying with newspapers works. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM

The thread should read "Nuclear plant disasters looming" as we look at
the one in New York City, the Diablo plant in Northern California and the
San Onofre in Southern California, with the one also in Detroit.

Obama on the nuclear soapbox may be assigning our country to a dangerous precedent.

Who wants nuclear waste in their back yard?

Who relishes the idea of living within the radius of an active nuclear plant particularly in
an earthquake fault?

Nuclear energy may give a new definition to "blowback".

Who thinks that Chernobyl or Three Mile Island won't happen again?

The argument isn't coal on one hand and nuclear on the other. False choice!

How about investing R and D in alternative energy sources to make them work?

If we can send a man to the moon, we can develop a viable alternative to coal, natural gas and nuclear energy.

Hey, people, it's your tax dollars at work here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM

The word corrupt is still being put forth in ignorance. If miserly is meant, then say so.

However, replacing rather than 'patching' a reactor means construction of a new structure at a cost of near $1 billion.
Patch repairs done at Fukushima? Please quote reference. Are such repairs normally done in maintenance at nuclear plants? Who does them (if done), the installer or the operator? What is the approval route?

'Patch' repairs are normal on many expensive structures. The 'skin' (outer shell of airplanes) are replaced after a time period and many 'patches' are done over the 30 or so year lifetime of a primry service airliner before it is recycled. There are few major costly structures that aren't repaired over time, rather than being replaced.

Of course some regard all companies are corrupt; this implies that their employees and stockholders are complicit- sometimes many tens of thousands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM

NHK...

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says there has been no change in the amount of radioactive water seeping from the Fukushima nuclear plant after a polymer absorbent was injected into a cracked pit.

Tokyo Electric Power Company found on Saturday that contaminated water was leaking into the ocean from the 20-centimeter crack in the concrete pit.

On Sunday, the utility firm used a polymer absorbent to try to stop the leak of radioactive water.

The government's nuclear agency said the injection of the chemical began shortly after 1:40 PM, but it cannot confirm if there has been a decline in the amount of contaminated water leaking into the ocean.

The agency added that sawdust and newspapers were also used, but the absorbent did not reach the pipe. Engineers are now trying to mix the substance with the water.

The agency plans to continue monitoring the situation until Monday to see if there is a positive result.

Sunday, April 03, 2011 19:38 +0900 (JST)


The video also says that the sawdust is "stuck somewhere".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM

Much debris had to be cleared before the two bodies could be found and recovered from the 'basement'.
Cleaning up will be a long-term effort.

This led me to remember the basement complex of a tower complex built here. The basement level consisted of a number of cells, or 'rooms', some of which were open to house elevator bases, air circulation equipment and other appurtenances (such as the turbines in the reactor buildings), some walled off as unneeded, and merely part of the underpinnings of the tower complex.
I wonder if contaminated water could be leaking into something on the order of these 'cells', which would be hard to penetrate, but, if breached, could be culprits in water escape.
I don't have the plans of the Hitachi structure, so these musings have no support- just a passing thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM

Sins-

The summary above linked to the Union of Concerned Scientists is the best overview I've seen.

"No doubt there will be a number of "horror" movies in the making for next year's release."

The movie will be out long before this disaster is cleaned up. I'm sure it's already in production. I wondering if Sheen has a leading role?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM

Thanks, Charley. I check various sources every day for updates but ultimately come here for a concise, well thought out synopsis.

No doubt there will be a number of "horror" movies in the making for next year's release. Probably in time for the end of the world in December.

Maybe, I will finally write a book too.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM

Here's an update on TEPCO's attempts to patch the leak in the cable trench beneath Unit 2 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex (from Al Jazeera):

"Japanese officials grappling to end the nuclear crisis at the earthquake and tsunami-damaged Fukushima plant are focusing on a crack in a concrete pit that is leaking highly radioactive water into the ocean from a crippled reactor.

"There have been two attempts now to stem the flow of water from a pit near reactor No. 2," Al Jazeera's Wayne Hay, reporting from Tokyo, said on Sunday.

"In the first they [power plant workers] tried to use cement but that failed, in the second they tried to use a polymeric material, a kind of powder, but at the moment that is not working either," he said.

"Officials at TEPCO [the company that operates the plant] say they are not giving up yet on this product they will test it again on Monday. If it isn't working then, it is not clear what step 3 will be to try and stem the flow of this water.

"But even if they do stop the water flowing out of this pit, the water shouldn't be there in the first place, this is a pit that contains cables, so how do they stop that, that's the next question."

The water has been leaking into the sea from a 20-centimetre crack detected at a pit in the reactor where power cables are stored. TEPCO said the pit is connected to the No. 2 reactor's turbine building and a tunnel-like underground trench, in which highly radioactive water has been spotted so far."

Of course it will also be important to identify the source of the radioactive water that is filling the trench.

TEPCO has finally acknowledged that two plant workers were killed in the initial earthquake and tsunami. Their bodies were recently recovered and decontaminated.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:44 PM

We should probably withhold judgment on the degree to which TEPCO has mismanaged this unfolding disaster.

I've already outlined what I thought the mistakes were, none of which were of a criminal nature. But I wouldn't rule out deliberate cover-ups by TEPCO officials as well. A lot of information, of course, is missing because instrumentation went off-line along with the control rooms, and evidently the control rooms are still not fully functional (although the overhead lights work).

Hopefully third parties will soon gain access to the plant site and be able to take their own measurements.

The workers at the plant have had enough to do trying desperately to stabilize the melting fuel rods, and the huge volumes of radioactive water. They don't seem to have the training or time to make systematic measurements.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM

Falsified safety inspections.

Probably lots of coverups about this incident..as many as they can get away with.

I would look for financial audits and see what could be discovered, although a company stupid enough not to be able to purchase dosimeters even at black market rates in a disaster might be smart enough to not leave trails of money. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

Corrupt in the sense they covered up accidents and cracked reactors.
Corrupt in the sense that they discovered CRACKS in the reactor containment vessel and chose to weld patch work patches of steel over the cracks instead of replacing the reactor vessel which costs a huge amount of money. Welding patches is never suggested by any company or regulatrs for a cracked reactor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:41 PM

Corrupt private company? Please point out the corruption.
It may be too centered on satisfying its many shareholders, but that is not corruption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:13 PM

Despite all the complaints Japan really does seem to be handling the disaster 100% better than the USSR.

Tons of nuclear fuel doesnt care if the operators are a corrupt private company for profit at any cost or a souless state beauracracy, all it wants to do is burn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

Leave it to the US to offer the "Putzmeister".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM

THe Union of Concerned Scientists has just posted their summary of what has been happening in Japan with regard to this nuclear disaster: click here for report!

It appears an excellent summary to me. It's a pity that it's unlikely to be reprinted in full by the Sunday newspapers tomorrow. There's a lot of people around the world who would like to know a little more about what happened, and what might happen next.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM

The Japanese government has set up a comprehensive plan and system to monitor food from affected areas. The WHO and FAO are keeping track of the situation, and the FAO has praised government efforts to keep the food supply safe.
The fears of radiation have decreased purchases of fresh foods, both agricultural and marine.
Produce from Ibaraki Prefecture, to the northeast, has been hard hit because of the discovery of spinach with unacceptable levels of radiation.

Markets have plenty of fresh fish and vegetables from unaffected areas, despite the devastation of part of the Tohoku area, including farms and small fishing villages.

Food exports from Japan are small, less than 0.5% of total exports (seafood about half of this).

Alarmist blogs are being printed in the U. S. by vehicles such as the Majirox News, staffed by former underground writers, and in UK by their large yellow press.

MSN News, April 3, 2011; "Radiation Discovery Fans Food Fears in Japan."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM

"For the the first month there were no procedures to halt radioactive products in Chernobyl. When there was it was fou that the lumber cut into boards was fine but the brooms were dangerously hot. All but one shipment of brooms had already been shipped."

I was on the commitee to pass or deny requests for food shipments from the Chernobyl area. One field adjacent to another might be unsafe but the other was safe, but the dust was free to blow and the water to flow. I learned how bad we humans are. I learned how bad I was. The rules said we had to dump dangerous dirt in dirt someplace else 6 feet deep and that surveys were to be done to be sure ground water was meters away. In practice the diggers would dig until they hit water and then usually didn't bother with the polyethelene plastic liners at all. etc

quotes from a book read out loud on the npr show THis American life this afternnon.

Its worth looking this show up later. It has the stories of the real people involved including the newly wed wife of a fireman who had radiation sickness within hours of exposure. She held his hand as he slept even though it was against the rules for anyone to touch him. Within days he began to cough up his lungs in large amounts and the rest of his organs were coming out as they were killed and disoloving from the inside out.
The accounts were read by actors in some cases and not the real victims, because some did not survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM

Unicef? The Japanese government told the world early on that $$$ is NO problem. What they need is time and manpower. They have oodles of money and equipment, but money doesn't clear roads and feed people and clean up a nuclear disaster... it takes time and it takes resources that are not available in sufficient quantity. If it was, they could buy it with the coin they said was no problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:33 PM

Sources for these statements, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

As in Chernobyl, there are no procedures to stop selling radioactive products and food in Japan. They did catch some radioactive Spinich but that was grown very near the nuke plants.

20% of Japan Fishing fleet and sea food processing plants are destroyed. So far Tokyo fish auction markets say all the fish are fine.

The fish who have feasted on the 10000 people washed out to sea must effect the psyche of people in Japan on some level. It did at Phuket.

Food shortages and food dangers in Japan will become more evident in the months and years to come.

At northern shelters a cup of noodles meal is common.


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