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BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Charley Noble 01 Jun 11 - 09:07 AM
Donuel 01 Jun 11 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 01 Jun 11 - 07:38 AM
Donuel 01 Jun 11 - 07:20 AM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 08:49 PM
gnu 31 May 11 - 02:01 PM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 07:54 AM
Jack Campin 30 May 11 - 08:15 PM
Charley Noble 30 May 11 - 08:00 PM
gnu 30 May 11 - 05:01 PM
gnu 30 May 11 - 03:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 May 11 - 02:16 PM
Charley Noble 30 May 11 - 10:09 AM
Jim Martin 30 May 11 - 04:32 AM
gnu 28 May 11 - 01:48 PM
gnu 28 May 11 - 01:45 PM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 01:35 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 May 11 - 01:03 PM
Ebbie 28 May 11 - 11:53 AM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 10:03 AM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 May 11 - 07:24 AM
gnu 27 May 11 - 08:59 PM
Charley Noble 27 May 11 - 07:52 PM
Charley Noble 24 May 11 - 06:22 PM
Jack Campin 24 May 11 - 06:12 PM
gnu 24 May 11 - 05:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 May 11 - 08:29 PM
gnu 22 May 11 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,mg 22 May 11 - 07:28 PM
Charley Noble 22 May 11 - 06:28 PM
gnu 22 May 11 - 03:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 May 11 - 02:09 PM
Charley Noble 21 May 11 - 11:36 PM
gnu 21 May 11 - 10:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 May 11 - 07:54 PM
gnu 21 May 11 - 02:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 May 11 - 01:56 PM
Charley Noble 21 May 11 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,mg 20 May 11 - 03:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 May 11 - 02:40 PM
Charley Noble 20 May 11 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 May 11 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,mg 19 May 11 - 09:57 PM
Charley Noble 19 May 11 - 09:37 PM
gnu 18 May 11 - 02:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 May 11 - 02:23 PM
gnu 18 May 11 - 01:49 PM
Charley Noble 18 May 11 - 01:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 May 11 - 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 09:07 AM

"TEPCO spokesman Taichi Okazaki said that (an) explosion at reactor No. 4 was likely to have taken place because of a gas leak, and assured that it did not cause any additional radiation leak."

Donuel-

If you had provided a link or a quote from a news source, your post above might have appeared less alarming, or maybe it was a "gigantic explosion." However, any gas explosion (what kind of gas?) has to be alarming in that it will disrupt attempts to stabilize the damaged reactor units.

There is still no update on the 4 spent fuel pools.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 09:02 AM

npr reports that school playgrounds in Japan are testing 60 times above minimum safe levels of radiation.

Plans to remove 2 inches of dirt are in the works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 07:38 AM

All reports at this moment speak of an oil spill and a small explosion causing minor damage


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 07:20 AM

A new gigantic explosion at Fukushima is being reported today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 08:49 PM

"Some retired nuclear workers are banding together to volunteer for work in the disaster area to replace young workers being exposed to radiation. BBC television news today."

There's some logic to this effort in that it takes some radiation induced cancers 20 to 30 years to kill someone. But they are clearly very dedicated people and I hope TEPCO provides better care for them than they have for their existing work force.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 11 - 02:01 PM

I'll add a hearty second to that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:54 AM

Jack-

Excellent story.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 May 11 - 08:15 PM

Just to show that some people can do mega-engineering projects with informed forethought:

the sea defences of Fudai village


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 May 11 - 08:00 PM

At least the plant complex didn't get a direct hit from the Class 5 typhoon that struck Southern Japan.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 30 May 11 - 05:01 PM

NHK...

Re the brave wo/men...

Japan's Nuclear Safety Commission has expressed concerns about internal radiation exposure for workers at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

High levels of radioactive substances have been detected in the bodies of 2 workers at the plant.

After a meeting on Monday, commission member Shizuyo Kusumi told reporters that the organization had concerns about whether protective masks can fully protect workers from internal exposure.

She added that the commission would study the two cases based on data to be sent from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

Another member, Osamu Oyamada, noted the need for comprehensive management of the work environment, saying a better environment should be in place before the summer.

He also said consideration should be given to the effects of the summer heat on workers' health, while keeping radiation exposure to a minimum.

Monday, May 30, 2011 18:44 +0900 (JST)

A broken pump has been replaced at the Number 5 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, and the temperature inside the reactor has started to decline.

The reactor has been in a state of cold shutdown.

An employee patrolling the facility noticed around 9 PM on Saturday that the pump was not working.

The pump sends sea water to the cooling system of the reactor and the spent fuel storage pool. Its failure caused the water temperature inside the reactor to rise from 68 degrees Celsius at 9 PM on Saturday to 94 degrees at noon on Sunday. The water temperature inside the spent fuel storage pool rose from 41 to 46 degrees.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, which operates the plant, began replacing the failed pump at 8 AM on Sunday, and restored the cooling functions before 1 PM.

The water temperature inside the reactor reached 94.8 degrees before the work was completed. It fell to 76.5 degrees by 2 PM, and the temperature of the spent fuel storage pool has also stabilized.

The utility says it will investigate the cause of the failure, as it continues to monitor the temperatures inside the reactor and the pool.

TEPCO did not release information on the trouble and the repair work until Sunday morning.

TEPCO senior official Junichi Matsumoto said on Sunday the company did not start repair work until Sunday morning due to safety concerns.

He said TEPCO told the government and the prefecture about the problems on Saturday night.

Matsumoto added that the company will make efforts to tell the public about troubles as early as possible.

Monday, May 30, 2011 06:05 +0900 (JST)

And there are more stories but I think I'll stop posting these unless it's sommat "outstanding" on accounta it just is getting "more like the same" as time goes on.

The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant has suspended some of its outdoor work due to heavy rain and strong winds caused by a tropical storm.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it is watching closely to ensure that contaminated water in reactor buildings and elsewhere do not flow outside as the water levels have been rising because of the rain.

It has been raining since Sunday in the areas around the Fukushima plant.

The utility has stopped spraying chemicals to prevent radioactive dust from spreading. It is also considering suspending work to remove debris.

It has piled up sandbags to prevent rain from getting inside electrical facility buildings to ensure the reactor cooling systems continue to function.

TEPCO has also secured a giant storage barge that was deployed to contain contaminated water to a quay.

Monday, May 30, 2011 12:51 +0900 (JST)

Lets hope that barge doesn't have too much crap in it if it gets meesed up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:49 PM

"Some retired nuclear workers are banding together to volunteer for work in the disaster area to replace young workers being exposed to radiation."

Brave and valliant wo/men indeed. Bless them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 May 11 - 02:16 PM

Further comments in Japan Times say cleanup will be prolonged. It may be years before the towns and farms close to Fukushima can be occupied again.

Some retired nuclear workers are banding together to volunteer for work in the disaster area to replace young workers being exposed to radiation. BBC television news today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:09 AM

So are the Swiss.

Meanwhile my MAC G5 has had a meltdown and I'm making do with my travel Notebook, wondering if my major files can be recovered.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jim Martin
Date: 30 May 11 - 04:32 AM

Germany ending all nuclear power:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13592208


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:48 PM

NHK...

Japan's science ministry has detected extraordinarily high levels of radioactive cesium in seafloor samples collected off Miyagi and Ibaraki Prefectures.

Experts say monitoring should be stepped up over a larger area to determine how fish and shell fish are being affected.

The ministry collected samples from 12 locations along a 300-kilometer stretch off Fukushima prefecture's Pacific coast between May 9th and 14th. It hoped to get an idea about the spread of nuclear contamination caused by the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Radioactive substances were found in all locations, including those off Miyagi and Ibaraki Prefectures, which had not been previously investigated.

Radioactive cesium 134, measuring 110 becquerels per kilogram or about 100 times the normal level, was found in samples collected from the seabed 30 kilometers off Sendai City and 45 meters beneath the surface.

Samples collected from the seabed 10 kilometers off Mito City and 49 meters beneath the surface measured 50 becquerels or about 50 times the normal level.

Professor Takashi Ishimaru of the Tokyo University of Marine Science and Technology says plankton most probably absorbed the radioactive substances carried by the current near the sea surface, and then sank to the seabed.

He said monitoring must be stepped up over a larger area, as radioactive materials in the seabed do not dissolve quickly, and can accumulate in the bodies of larger fish that eat shrimp and crabs that live on the seafloor.

Saturday, May 28, 2011 22:21 +0900 (JST)


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:45 PM

"Seawalls"... sorry for the mixup. Contaimnent "walls" would be a better term. A double row of sheet piles with a bentonite mix between them. Big job ringing the site with them.

What about fusing with electricty? Wasn't that done at Chernobyl... or at least considered? With directional drilling, it could be done even underneath but I don't know the logistics of supplying power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:35 PM

Ebbie-

Thanks for the support.

It's all too true that international media, as well as the general public and politicians, grow tired of stories with a very long half-life. All the more reason to outlaw nuclear power!!!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:03 PM

Sea walls, of course, may help protect against tsunami waves, provided that they are not undercut, but do nothing about keeping contaminated water from seeping into the substrate or flowing to the sea.

As nuke workers wait, tainted water climbs
Japan Times, Kazuaki Nagata, May 28, 2011.

Tepco must find a safe place to store the thousands of tons of radioactive water being generated at the Fukushima No. 1 plant before it seeps into the ground or finds its way to the sea.
Compounding the problem are the reactors, which are believed to be riddled with cracks and damaged pipes which allow the water used to cool the reactors to escape. Plugging the leaks is difficult because high radiation levels prevent workers from dealing with the problem.
As the amount of water increases, the problem becomes worse.
The water is interferring with workers attempts to deal with the reactors.
Basements of all six reactors have been flooded with 100,000 tons of radioactive water.
Cracked utility pits were found to be draining into the sea after being filled by trenches linked to the turbine buildings.
Tepco must wait for a water treatment facility.

Most of Tepco's hopes are pinned on a treatment facility being set up by Areva SA (France). The facility removes radioactive substances from water.

Reading further, problems are compounding problems.
The treatment must continue for "some years" so the company must find some other way to secure the reactors.

True, the reactor problems have disappeared from news broadcasts and other media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 11 - 11:53 AM

I have discovered the way to fix the problem at Fukushima: Ignore it. The subject has come up several times in recent days- and I swear, without exception, that most(?) people think it is 'all fixed' and no worries. Not only that, they think everyone has forgotten it, that no one is talking about it any more.

I was proud to say that are several people on the Mudcat who have NOT forgotten it.

Thanks, guys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 11 - 10:03 AM

Here's a current update on "Typhoon Songda": click here for update!

It's now near Taiwan and is predicted to hit Tokyo in a day or so.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 11 - 09:58 AM

Peter-

"Typhoon Songda"?

Agreed, enough is enough!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 May 11 - 07:24 AM

Worries are expressed about typhoon Songda which is due to pass over Fukushima. TEPCO officials have fears about the capacity of the damaged reactor buildings to withstand the windspeeds associated with the category 5 storm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:59 PM

Sweet Jesus! This just keeps getting worse... by leeps and bounds. And now it's "old news". The worst may (appears to) be yet to come, that being the seepage into the groundwater and into the ocean. Seawalls were said to be being put into place a while back but I can assure you that unless they are done properly they will supply little stoppage and even if "proper", they will eventually "leak".

Agreed I don't know the details of the saewalls, but even if sheet piles are driven and bentonite injected the nasty stuff is gonn go somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:52 PM

A couple of more disturbing updates via NIRS:

"Tomio Kawata, a research fellow of the Nuclear Waste Management Organization of Japan, said this week that the soil of a large area of northwest Japan—about 600 square kilometers—is contaminated with Cesium-137 at levels higher than prompted compulsory evacuation orders in the Soviet Union after Chernobyl (1.48 million becquerels per square meter). 700 square kilometers is contaminated with levels from 555,000-1.48 million becquerels per square meter.

Today, Tepco said that some 60 tons of radioactive water in one of its makeshift storage tanks—where it has been putting radioactive water gathered from the reactors and turbine buildings—has leaked out. The leak is apparently continuing."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:22 PM

gnu-

Thanks for the updates on meltdowns at Units 1-3.

I wonder when TEPCO plans to provide an update on what was happening in the spent fuel pools for Units-1-4.

Jack-

Yes, the NRC has been notorious about dragging its feet during this entire disaster period, and before of course. How can "lessons be learned" if they refuse to observe what is going on in the real world?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:12 PM

Meanwhile here's the US nuclear industry sleepwalking its way towards another kind of disaster:

NRC failing to enforce fire safety rules


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 24 May 11 - 05:09 PM

NHK...

The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant says fuel meltdowns are believed to have occurred at the No.2 and No.3 reactors within a few days after the March 11th earthquake and tsunami.

Tokyo Electric Power Company said earlier this month that fuel rods at the plant's No.1 reactor had melted.

The utility said on Tuesday that data analysis shows the No.2 reactor may have lost its cooling system shortly after 1:00 PM on March 14th, 3 days after the quake.

If all the fuel rods were exposed, they would have started melting at around 8:00 PM that day. By 8:00 PM on March 15th --- some 101 hours after the quake --- much of the fuel would have melted and collected at the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel.

The No.3 reactor likely lost its cooling system at around 2:00 AM on March 13th. Fuel would have begun melting at around 9:00 AM that day, and most of it would have dropped to the bottom of the vessel by 3:00 AM on March 14th --- about 60 hours after the quake.

The possibility of a meltdown would have been the same even if the rods were partially submerged in water.
Nearly half the fuel rods at the 2 reactors would have melted down within a week of the March 11th disaster.

Tokyo Electric says it had assumed from the start that the fuel roads were damaged, but had focused on cooling the reactors rather than assessing the extent of damage.

Goshi Hosono, who serves as advisor to the prime minister, said the delay in publicizing the extent of damage may have been inevitable.

But he expressed remorse over the government's overly optimistic response to the crisis.

Masanori Naito of the Institute of Applied Energy says analysis of data on the reactors' conditions is easy, and could have been completed in a day.

He says the analysis should have been done much earlier, as it would have provided important clues to long-term cooling and other measures.

Tuesday, May 24, 2011 19:12 +0900 (JST)


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:29 PM

Charley, don't forget the uranium mines in Saskatchewan, Canada. Canada sources 20-30% of the world's uranium, from rich pitchblende.

And 14% of U. S. uranium comes from the southwestern states, but most is imported. There are many abandoned mining sites in Arizona-New Mexico. According to U.S. gov't figures, 20% of the electrical power in the U. S. comes from nuclear reactors.

Australia, in addition to Canada, is a major world supplier. Kazakhstan, Russia and Brazil are among the other suppliers.
See http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=nuclear_home-basics

The above (except for Canadian data) from the U. S. gov't site for children, "energy kids."


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:47 PM

Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong,


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:28 PM

Another problem is that it can cover for non-commercial, i.e., military uses..which has been ssupected by some in this case. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:28 PM

The other phase of nuclear power which generally escapes public scrutiny is the mining and processing of nuclear fuel. Processing the ore creates mountains of low-level radioactive waste, which typically gets into the workers clothes, lungs, and is brought back to share with their households, and relying on countries such as Niger or Namibia only compounds the problem in someone else's back yard.

But it's safe, clean, energy, with the government providing the insurance! What a deal, until something goes wrong...

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 22 May 11 - 03:39 PM

Q... it seems the life cycle costs may need more study from an ROR POV. Is it all smoke and mirrors when the bottom lineS are tallied?

After all, people with money just want more money and they ignore the "disaster" downside because they can, in whatever way they can, and don't care about leaving farmers, fisherman, workers and the general public behind to deal with radiation after they are safely "away" with their money.

I realize that kinda shit happens every day all over the world in many fashions but when it's "radiation" and all that goes along with it... fuck me! It's sickening.

Sorry... rather simplistic and empiricalistic but... well... fuck me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 11 - 02:09 PM

Currently, only 18 of Japan's 54 reactors are in operation.
Shut down reactors are still expensive to maintain.
The Monju reactor in Fukui Prefecture has been mostly offline since 1995; offline cost is 55 million yen a day (=about $600,000/day U.S.). The Japan Press article says, "let's at least hope that money is making the local residents happy."
Japan Times, May 22, 2011. Article by Phillip Brasor.

Once built, a reactor is a continuing expense, operable or not. Disassembly and removal also is very expensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:36 PM

gnu-

That cap gasket on top of the reactor vessel was indeed the theory put forth by the Union of Concerned Scientists but evidently the venting system may be the primary culprit.

In Units 5 and 6 they were able to get one of the back-up generators back on line which helped stabilize things there.

I'm certain that the spent fuel in Units 1-4 has also partially melted down. The spent fuel pools depended on the same cooling system that was totally knocked off-line. Some day we'll get an update on their status.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:11 PM

"concerned"... The Union of Concerned Scientists... it was linked to by Charley... the gasket at the refuelling cap... no??? The hydrogen explosions were explained quite clearly I thought. Nothing to do with the venting as far as the reactors were concerned. Then, there was the fact that the spent fuel pools were compromised... no???


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 May 11 - 07:54 PM

Dunno who the 'concerned' was, but a lot of speculation has been posted; it is the later posts that are based more on actual findings.
In any case, it is the vents that are supposed to keep the vessel from blowing its top.
As Tepco reported May 18: "Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO) has now finally confirmed that meltdowns occured in reactor No. 1, 2 and 3 all of which suffered hydrogen explosions that blew away their containment buildings-.... thanks to the failed General Electric hydrogen vents." Several news reports indicating that similar vents were on U. S. reactors.
Bellona and bloomberg.com among others discussed the problem.
Entergy Corp. (the second-largest U. S. nuclear operator, and Duke Energy Corp. said the industry may need to retrofit reactors or bolster safety systems after a pressure-relief system failed in Japan, contributing to the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl- report in bloomberg.com.
"The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission is "looking at effectiveness of containment venting strategies," Charlie Miller, head of the post-Fukushima safety review, said at a May 12 agancy meeting.

Entergy "fully expects" the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission to order new equipment installed and new procedures to be adopted as a result of the accident in Japan, said Jim Sheets, a spokesman for the New Orleans-based company that owns 11 reactors. Exelon Corp. owns the largest number of U.S. reactors. Another Entergy executive said there were multiple explanations for the failure of the venting systems.
The U.S. has 104 reactors in 31 states. At least 5 are in areas possibly subject to serious earthquakes. www.worldnuclear.org


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:33 PM

Ahhhh... was not the source of the hydrogen that ignited discussed early on in this thread? Was it not said by the "concerned" that the source of the hydrogen that ignited was from the gasket at the top of the containment vessel being compromised by over-pressure in the reactor, in which case the venting system would not have mattered a whit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:56 PM

The NY Times as noted in an earlier post, discussed the problems with the General Electric venting system as noted by scientists.
Along with this was mentioned the problem of supplying power to this and other functions in a reactor affected by quake, tsunami or other disaster.

Redundant power supply systems are necessary, but all may be disrupted by unforseen disaster.

This leads to the question, is nuclear power engineering not yet capable of insuring safety? I know what Charley's answer would be, and it is also becoming mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:44 AM

We may not have focused closely enough on "hydrogen venting" as it was attempted in the early phase of this disaster. Researchers are now concluding that the venting system as designed by General Electric failed to function triggering the hydrogen explosions which crippled reactor Units 1-3. Here's a report prepared by Bellona (The Bellona Foundation is an international environmental NGO based in Norway. Founded in 1986 as a direct action protest group, Bellona has become a recognised technology and solution-oriented organization with offices in Oslo, Brussels, Washington D.C., St. Petersburg and Murmansk): Click here for report

Many other nuclear reactors around the world, including those in the States, depend on this same venting system.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 May 11 - 03:38 PM

Sure they are. He was in charge of a nuclear disaster. Little atoms were buzzing all over the place, including on me. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 May 11 - 02:40 PM

Top management of Tepco, like other major corporations world-wide, draws its executives from the ranks of MBA, economics, law, government and similar disciplines, not from the engineering and scientific side. Their major function is company expansion and share-holder satisfaction, thus comments about lack of nuclear training on the part of the retiring executive are not pertinent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 11 - 01:23 PM

Peter-

Very graphic photos!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 May 11 - 11:36 AM

TEPCO has released a series of photographs of the moment the tsunami made landfall and overwhelmed the nuclear facility at Fukushima-Daichi

Photoseries in Guardian


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 May 11 - 09:57 PM

Just today I read that the president of TEPCO is finally resigning. Why this long? Oh but he is so needed to run the crisis. Well, he was missing the first week, perhaps with illness or stress. He was hospitalized for some time. He is not a nuclear engineer by training who knows all the secrets, although I am sure he knows some. I am not saying resign to show contrition but resign so someone competent can run the show. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 May 11 - 09:37 PM

Gnu and Q-

I'd missed your last couple of posts.

Alberta sounds nice, a whole lot nicer than Northeast Japan.

Now I generally hate long copy and pastes but NIRS did a nice job summarizing the latest revelations from TEPCO:

"UPDATE, 12:30 pm, Monday, May 16, 2011. On March 27, we reported on a press conference by a Japanese nuclear engineer who believed that the meltdown at Unit 1 was caused by a loss-of-coolant accident initiated by the earthquake itself, which was exacerbated by the ensuing tsunami and loss of power. It now appears that assessment was correct. Tepco said today that radiation levels inside Unit 1 were measured at 300 MilliSieverts/hour within hours of the earthquake—meaning that fuel melting already had begun. For melting to have begun that early, coolant must have been lost almost immediately. It's now believed that fuel melted and dropped to the bottom of the containment—melting a hole into it, within 16 hours. Most likely, a major pipe carrying cooling water to the core was damaged by the earthquake, which should lead to a new evaluation of the ability of key reactor components to withstand seismic events.

Tepco also said today that an Olympic pool sized pond of highly radioactive water—some 3,000 tons of water--was discovered in the basement of Unit 1 over the weekend. This at least answers some of the question about where all the water that has been pumped into the Unit has been going…

Meanwhile, a robot placed on the second floor of Unit 1 measured radiation levels up to 2,000 MilliSieverts/hour—or 200 rems/hour—far too high for people to work in. And Tepco now acknowledges that the containments of Units 2 and 3 also almost certainly have been breached by molten fuel, which indicates a similar scenario to Unit 1—thousands of tons of water that have been pumped in to keep the reactors cool has become highly radioactive water leaking back out. There is likely far less water in the pressure vessels than Tepco previously believed.

All of this means that Tepco's 6-9 month plan to bring the reactors to "stability" will undergo major changes, and likely will be extended much into the future. Their plan has been scheduled for a public revision tomorrow.

Relocation of people in Iitate and other highly contaminated villages to the northwest of the Fukushima Daiichi but outside the original 20 kilometer exclusion zone finally began over the weekend, although it has now been more than a month since the intent of their relocation was announced. Why this necessary step wasn't taken sooner is beyond us…."

There's a bit more detail provided here, plus in the final sentence some sense that actual real caring humans were posting this update.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:34 PM

Q... I covered the reasons earlier in the thread, especially those with regard to fuel type and auto/manual redundant shutdown mechanisisms (although spent fuel is still an obvious problem).

I kinda like the idea of AB. I had a chance to go there upon graduation in 1980. I was the first interviewed by ABDOT and they offered me the job when I sat down, ie, NO interview. $28,800 and all the paid overtime or time off in lieu that I wanted. I did the Masters Degree on an assistantship of $6500 a year instead... fookin idiot! But, when Mum leaves me, I just might visit you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:23 PM

How do you know Candu is a safer design?

Have they been subjected to the tsunami test?

"The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission (the regulator)...warn that it may have to order nuclear power plants to run at less than full power indefinitely to compensate for what it deems less-safe conditions..."
"...document says Canada's seven nuclear stations, which all use Candu technology, have a feature known as "positive reactivity feedback," in which their atomic chain reactions automatically speed up if the water pumped into the reactors to cool them leaks, one of the worst accidents possible at a nuclear station. If reactors aren't immediately shut down during this type of incident, positive reactivity leads to a quick snowballing in the pace of nuclear reactions, which in turn could cause potentially damaging overherating."
"...with a large loss of coolant, such overheatng could put the nuclear facilities' containment features- the concrete domes and other protective mechanisms... around reactors which are the last-ditchdefenses to stop the spread of radioactivity into the environment- to a dangerous test.

Document obtained through freedom of information ruling, 2009, posted in Globe and Mail, June 28, 2009, updated July 23, 2009, Reactor Design puts safety of nuclear plants into question.

The plants are old, pipes, etc., are in need of replacement, etc. etc.
So move to Alberta, and take safe refuge in the tar sands!


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 11 - 01:49 PM

I am glad I stayed with this thread. Youse and the links have taught me a lot.

I am now against nukes although I realize it won't do any good. My only solace (hope?) is that the CANDU 100 miles from me at Point LePreau is a much safer design... for whatever that is worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 May 11 - 01:30 PM

Another verse from an old song from the 1979 march on Midland, Michigan

We'll soon have a Garden of Eden,
We'll live off the fat of the land;
Strontium 90 is dandy,
Plutonium's candy,
And for roaches won't it be grand!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 May 11 - 11:48 AM

New York Times this morning-
In Japan Reactor Failings, Danger Signs to the U. S.
"Emergency vents that American officials have said would prevent devastating hydrogen explosions at nuclear plants in the U. S. were put to the test in Japan- and failed to work....."
Venting was critical to relieving pressure inside reactors after the cooling systems were knocked out. "Without flowing water to cool the reactors' cores, they had begun to dangerously overheat. Tepco said they had upgraded to the new vent systems used in the U. S.

There was a delay of several hours before it was decided to vent- a bad bit of dithering- but when it was decided to vent, the system didn't work. There is evidence of design flaws and mechanical failure of the U. S. designed system (built by G. E.).
The venting system was operated by the same power supply that provided electricity to the rest of the plant. Backup generators are in the basement, thus subject to tsunami waves.

"Japan is going to teach us lessons, said David Lochbaum at the Union of Concerned Scientists."
The hydrogen blasts may have been responsible for breaches in containment vessels, complicating efforts to cool the rods.
High pressure within the reactors also repels efforts to pump in cooling water.
----------------------

Taipei says it is going ahead with construction of their fourth reactor. Taipei, like Japan, relies heavily on nuclear power.
Taipei lies on some of the same fault system that affects Japan, and severe quakes and tsunamis are an ever-present threat.
---------------------------


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