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BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM
Donuel 23 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM
Dorothy Parshall 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM
Dorothy Parshall 23 Mar 11 - 01:09 PM
Donuel 23 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 09:54 AM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM
SINSULL 23 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
SINSULL 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM
Donuel 23 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,999--Canadian news source 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM
number 6 22 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 07:54 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM
SINSULL 22 Mar 11 - 05:04 PM
SINSULL 22 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM
gnu 22 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM
gnu 22 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM

These reports are very confusing and disturbing. I'm left wondering if the Utility workers have any idea of what damage has already occurred at these reactors, and what might happen next.

Unfortunately the Union of Concerned Scientist reports always lag a day or so.

But I'll see if NIRS has any update worth mentioning.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM

Coverage on American cable news channels is now spotty.
I did see a FOX reporter in Japan say that they have detected what he called neutron beams which is indicative of Plutonium radiation and that it would point to a release that typically would come from a reactor.

Dark smoke from reactor 3 could suggest a core breach of some kind and prompted a worker withdrawl. For the little info we are given it could just as esily be a lubricant fire.

One FOX reporter speaking of finding neutron beam radiation (which is not a scientific term to my knowledge) does not make it true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM

"sparty ops"? Did you mean spray ops?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM

Good poster.

NHK said a few hours ago... temp of #1 reactor was 400 and double the seawater was pumped in and temp fell to 330 (design temp is 300). The smoke from #3 building cancelled sparty ops today. High radiation at #2 building. #5 and 6 reactor temps at 100 or below.

Tokyo tap water not to be ingested by those under 12 months age due to iodine. Bottled water in short supply beacuse fuel in short supply.

(It's getting more and more difficult to watch... those people must be terrified.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

Those miserable idiots did not have thermometers apparently that worked without electricity. So they are only now measuring certain temperatures. And yes, I hope they lose face and are driven from their positions by the people they put at such risk. Now I am going to send in Chef Ramsey and Star Jones with the goal of cutting through any red tape. And Paula Deen to make people feel better about the whole situation. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company), with some 35,000 employees, has widely held stock, 38% by individuals, 22% by various companies both foreign and Japanese, 10% by insurance companies, 18% by trust banks, 10% by Japanese governments. Dividend yield c. 2.5%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

Pressure pump motors are being replaced in No. 2 Fukushima Daiichi, destroyed or fried by quake and/or electrical malfunction. Contradictory reports about high radiation stopping work at that reactor is now reported as a miscommunication.
Very high temperatures recorded at no. 1 and 3. Very disturbing.

Rebuildng of power lines to the reactors at the complex only the beginning of the repairs which must be made to stabilize the reactors, which probably be permanently closed down once that is done.

Appearance of radioactivity in Tokyo water is disturbing. The sources are the Tonegawa (NE Tokyo), Arakawa and Tama River systems, combined with managed forests in Tokyo and Yamanashi (west of Tokyo) Prefectures. Only 0.2 % of the water is groundwater.
Usage 6.3 million cubic meters/day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM

When Ursula Franklin (google her) tells me it is safe, I will believe it. Until then...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:09 PM

Nice poster, Donuel!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM

My poster for nuclear power

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/levelplayingfield1.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:54 AM

Here's a link to everything you would or would not like to know about the spent fuel pools at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex as gathered by the Union of Concerned Scientists from official sources: click here for update!

Listed are the 6 spent fuel pools associated with Units 1 through 6, plus the larger common pool, and dry cask storage on site. There is also discussion.

Most concern is focused on the spent fuel pools in Unit 3 and Unit 4, both of which were extensively damaged by hydrogen explosions.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM

gnu-

True, rain could also wash radioactive deposits into the sea.

There are troubling reports this morning that black smoke is still being observed from the Unit 3 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. The utility offers no explanation about what part of this Unit 3 damaged building this smoke is coming from and what kind of isotopes are in the plume.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM

The Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, says black smoke was seen rising from the No.3 reactor building at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant at around 4:20 PM on Wednesday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM

Not just the spray, Charley... rain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42219616/ns/business-us_business/

Dry cask storage of nuclear waste (spent fuel). Lots of it to go round. Even in Maine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

More positive reports this morning in the newspapers about restoring power to the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, tempered by how long it might take to safely reactivate the cooling machinery that has not been damaged. Interestingly enough there was also a detailed report on the issue of spent fuel pools.

"Cesium, Plutonium and Uranium pollution last a bit longer than the Iodine threat."

That is a true statement but Plutonium and Uranium pollution should only be found deposited in close proximity to the plant complex. These radioactive isotopes are far too heavy to be suspended long in a vapor plume. Oh, shit! But they could be suspended longer in liquid and drained into the sea with the salt water being used to cool the reactors and spent fuel pools. It's unlikely that the Japanese have contained the sea water for treatment after it drained out of the reactor buildings (see 999 above).

Plutonium and Uranium are deadly for tens of thousands of years, compared with the much shorter half-lives of Iodine and Cesium.

I do confess that after the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant was decommissioned in 1996 or thereabouts, I went into hibernation on this issue. Well, we did stage one final commemorative special event where we invited everyone we knew to show up with their stories and memorabilia to celebrate; Fred Small and Charlie King were also invited in to lead a few songs. It was a wonderful evening in spite of the mini-blizzard that hung just over the City of Portland and dropped a foot of snow.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

According to a news report (radio) this morning Japan has turned down most offers of money and donations choosing to work with only fifteen donors. They claim they do not need financial aid. Maybe they don't.
I would have to dig but I remember reading that Japan covers housing insurance for homeowners. They were explaining why insurance companies would not take a huge hit after this disaster.That was on line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM

Water in Tokyo now unfit for babies to drink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12825342


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM

Sandra Bullock donated one million to Japanese Aid.

Hey George Clooney, whats the deal? Haiti yes, Sudan Yes, Japan ...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM

It is sad but it takes at least 2 weeks to mobilize efforts to an effective degree after a disaster. Early responders and search parties are always out of proportion to the number of those in need.
It is already 12 days old


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:00 PM

Collating the best info on the FUKU situation to a Japanese victim who is soley reliant on NHK TV can be done by putting it on the internet for those who can gain access. The mg suggestion was insightful. Your ideas made real is all it takes.

The thread about using Japan red cross to help and avoiding text donations that take 3 months or more to clear has some more ideas.



Being right and changing the world are two different things...

To make change the legitimate way takes revolution, fortunes and decades.
A differnt approach could be more direct. It is taught that if one really wants to get something resolved, it is best to go to the source or go to the top.

Naturally the most corrupt billionaire owners who feel they need protection have put laws, police states, domestic surveilence, phone recordings, massive internet downloads, patriot acts, private security, gated communities, off shore accounts and homes to insure their domestic tranquillity. But there is a place they all go and that is where persuasion to do the right thing can be properly and politely expedited. "Good evening sir, my name is John, John Galt...?...No sir, no relation"


I already have a CIA and FBI file so I leave it to those who can or already do swim with the whales. The details are in a fictional story of mine called 'The Impertinent Bastards'. Whats it about? Its a band that is free, and a tome for the brave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM

It makes me furious. There is no reason for some of suffering.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110322/wl_time/08599206077300


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM

Tell Branson of Virgin to hurry up with his planes to outer space and hotels on a suitable planet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM

You are right. Now what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM

They only need the survivors to believe their lies.

That phrase or perhaps some derivation of that phrase haunts me and I don't know why. As its stands its not as grand as Lincoln's "you can fool some of the people some of the time" phrase. Maybe it is just not finished...

They only need the survivors to believe their lies,
for the murdered dead can never slay their killers.

hmm, better but not great.




Cesium, Plutonium and Uranium pollution last a bit longer than the Iodine threat. IF the reactors split wide open with an explosion, or if #3 already has...Its a helluva thing to poison a country with radioactivity.
You take away all they have and all that their children could have had for thousands of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999--Canadian news source
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM

"Negligible" radiation from Japan nuclear power plant detected in B.C.


Trace amounts of radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have drifted across the Pacific Ocean.


By Stephen Hui, March 22, 2011
The B.C. Centre for Disease Control is stressing that radiation originating from an earthquake-stricken nuclear power plant in Japan poses "no health risk" to people in British Columbia.

In a Monday (March 21) update on its website, the centre confirmed that it had been told by Health Canada that "minute" amounts of radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi plant were detected by monitoring stations in the province.

"The amounts of radiation from Japan detected over the past few days in BC measure 0.0000005 millisieverts, which is significantly less than those coming from other sources," Monday's update stated.

"Scientists measure exposure to ionizing radiation using a unit of measurement called a sievert. The average Canadian is exposed to between 2 and 3 millisieverts of radiation annually from background radiation."

Today (March 22), the centre said in an update: "Health Canada anticipates that the quantity of radiation reaching Canada, would be negligible and not pose a health risk to Canadians. We are expecting very slight increases in radiation, smaller than the normal day to day fluctuations until a week after the reactors are stabilized."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM

Addenum to last post by Charley-
IAEA monitors say Japanese authorities believe that the cores have been damaged in Daiichi units 1, 2 and 3. This would explain the radioactive iodine 131. Best case scenario- venting.

A rather complete summary, dated 22 March for the last few additions:

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM

I don't think you're taking it too seriously. In fact, I think most people aren't taking it seriously enough. I'm also aware the power is not on in the reactors. In fact one news agency quoted some uppity-up in their nuclear pecking order that it might take weeks or even months to get the coolant machines on-line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM

"I apologize if I'm taking this event too seriously but then I'm been trained by my parents since 1969 not to take the nuclear industry for granted. There's more to be learned from the accident, and I'm well aware that most people will forget the lessons learned in a few short years, as they did with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl."

Exactly .... I fully agree Charley.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM

999-

"Lights back on in reactor three" doesn't mean that the pumps, valves, motors necessary to run what's left of Unit 3 are functional. Yes, it's a positive step but not one that should reassure anyone who is concerned about the safety of the entire complex.

I apologize if I'm taking this event too seriously but then I'm been trained by my parents since 1969 not to take the nuclear industry for granted. There's more to be learned from the accident, and I'm well aware that most people will forget the lessons learned in a few short years, as they did with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

I also share Donuel's respect for the Union of Concerned Scientists. Reviewing what they post every day in their transcripts of the media teleconference is crucial to understanding how this accident happened and what its impact may be. It's a tedious process and I have yet to see a report published anywhere that indicated that a reporter had digested the information provided. They do occasionally ask the right questions.

Case in point: how many people noticed that a high proportion of the radioactivity coming from the stricken reactors at Fukushima 1 nuclear complex is in the form of Iodine 131, instead of cesium 137? That's an important fact. If the radioactivity were coming primarily from the spent fuel pools it would be predominately cesium 137. That's because the iodine 131 has a much shorter half-life and has already dissipated in the spent fuel pool. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that the iodine 131 has come from the reactors, either from venting or primary containment ruptures.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM

We should definitely be sending windup radios and flashlights and solar chargers..or they should be made available somehow. And I am thinking about sending the boys from Kenya who make the windmills out of pop cans to help rebuild their energy grid. And Crocodile Dundee but I am not sure if he is real or not but what the heck. I can see I have a gender imbalance here though except for the Kardashians. I think I will also send the Celtic Women.   mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:54 PM

Someone mentioned that the 4 to 30 billion dollars in economic losses to the owners of TEPCO will be covered by insurance.

What about the millions of people and their homes?
What about the air land sea and rivers?
What about the 7th generation in which the accumlated genetic damage will be at its height?

Will the owners insurance money cover any of that?

nopw.

That my friends is what the Japanese people were sold.



The things I heard the Japanese victims ask for are safe food, gasoline and any credible source of information, particularly about the reactor dangers and consequences.

Of those 3, people here could provide at least some partial information. What you may not have at hand easily are the radiation measurments of food through out Japan but we may be able to at least give them more information thatn Japanese television. Most of their devies have stopped working because they can not charge batteries or use their home computer. It is my hope that we could help provide better information to the disaster victims regarding Fukushima that they currently are getting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM

Other enemies to the billionaire club are Doctors beyond borders, Union of concerned scientists and npr. They are willing to confront power with facts that are not always favorable to Corporate controlers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:28 PM

Outlineing the obvious may seem siphmoric but I have seen proof there are people who do not know the fundamental problems at the heart of past present and future man made disasters in the making.


Japan's agency to monitor and enforce safety concerns is the same agency charged with promoting nuclear energy and international sales of reactor parts.

The US has the Nuclear Regulatory Agency which for legal reasons is called an independent agency. The only time it was even slightly independent of privatizzed nuclear companies was for 3 years following 3 mile Island. After that the 191st (Newt Gingrich COngress) told the NRC that if they didn;t stop fining companies for safety hazards and incidents the Congress would defund them forever.

They behaved well ever since.


The enemies of the ownership society, AKA the Billionaires club, are anyone who supporsts labor rights, social justice, economic justice, democracy, goverment regulations, Product safety laws, EPA, consumer rights and or anything that minimizes profits no matter what the consequences,

Sure it seems irrational to most of us to allow such extreme sacrifices of lives, land and sea for so little profit in the grand scheme of things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

Lights back on in reactor three.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM

Historical data? Do they not consult with geologists? There was a huge earthquake off Washington coast hundreds of years ago..seconds in geological time or dog years..tsunami reached Japan. Again, I say that it was common conversation in Washington State to expect a really big earthquake..certainly not a 7 or 7.5..huge..do they not have the same advice? I would cut them some slack at a 20 point earthquake, but for sure not a 9. Not out of the realm of possibility at all, in fact expected. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM

Digression-
Canadian engineers, iron ring.
The Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer, written by Rudyard Kipling, is administered by the Corporation of the Seven Wardens, to the end of directing newly qualified Canadian engineers towards a consciousness of their profession and its social significance.
http://www.ironring.ca

There are a number of engineering societies in all countries.

TENPES (Thermal and Nuclear Power Engineering Society (Japan)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM

The SHAW Group Inc. is teaming with Toshiba to provide mitigation, remediation and recovery services for the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear complex.

The SHAW Group provided aid at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl. It is a "global provider of engineering, construction, technology, fabrication, remediation and support services for clients in the energy, chemicals, environmental, infrastructure and emergency response industries."
It is a Fortune 500 company with annual revenues in 2010 of $7 billion. It has 27,000 employees worldwide and in a leader in the power and design sectors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM

Each reactor is a separate entity although a complex with 6 reactors (e. g., Fukushima Daiichi) may be serviced with water, etc. from a central source.
Fukushima Daini complex, 7 miles distant, had design differences, including height of tsunami barriers, resistance to tremors, etc.

Somewhere above, I noted that the tsunami provision at the Daini complex was 6.51 meters but wave reached 7 meters, not causing too much damage.
At Daiichi, the severely damaged complex, the provision was 10 meters, but some estimates of the wave were more than 20 meters (from Univ. Tokyo).

The maximum ground acceleration near unit 3 of Daiichi reactor was 507 gal- or 507 centimeters /second squared- well above the plant's design value of 449 gal, according to the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum (20 March report).

Engineers use historical data to aid in design specifications, but the 9.0 quake was unprecedented. Japanese engineers are as good as any in the world; I doubt that engineers anywhere would have made provision for a quake of that magnitude at that location.

Figures released on design---- specs--- reviewed in michelekearneynuclearwire.blogspot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

It is impossible to know yet whether people are overreacting or underreacting. We do not know what will happen. And unless it is independently verified, we do not know what the truth is. It is not going to be volunteered. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:04 PM

One of the more fascinating comments on this nuclear crisis came from a Nagasaki survivor who felt that people were over reacting. If you can find the piece, read it. I will look for a link. An amazing lady with a startling opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for the response, Charley. If time proves that the plant design enabled Plant 2 to survive intact, would you go so far as to say that the others plants could be updated and allowed to continue operating? Not trying to put you on the spot but the reality is that the people of Japan need electricity. It will be provided one way or another. I don't believe that tidal power is doable yet. Just wondering about their options.

Donuel, it is interesting that you immediately took my reference to hysterical diatribes as a personal critism of you. I named no names. Does the shoe fit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM

They were no where near to "worst case expected" scenario in terms of design and building.

They were no where near to minimal competency and public safety in the early days.

It sounds like the government was handcuffed by the electric company and the most commensense reactions were not taken for days due to electric company stonewalling and trying to protects its declining assets rather than the population.   This of course made rescue of tsunami victims more difficult due to radiation factor, evacuations for radiation reasons, fear of responders to go to a hot locale etc.

I am totally unsympathetic to the criminals and nincompoops as this plays out. But it will provide some good lessons for the rest of the world. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM

"Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has restored the electricity supply for the control room of the Number 3 reactor at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant."

Soooo... each reactor building has a control room... again the info is sketchy... does that mean they have to run separate supplies to each control room of each reactor? That seems odd to me if that is actually the case (as the report may indicate).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM

Designers = engineers. The faults lie soley with them EVEN IF they were pressured to cut costs by the owners or politicians.

Canuck engineers wear an iron ring for a reason. That ring can be taken away if they mess up and not only even if they would have had to quit their job because of the "owners or politicians" but also for not fighting against a wrong after they quit their jobs. Here, it is an engineer's duty to uphold the safety of the public. That is not to say any other engineers are less loyal to public safety. Just to say that here, it is enforced under law by the engineers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM

All the Mark IV reactors were designed to have been closed and entombed almost 20 years ago. The decision to keep them open and running beyond their lifespan and operational capacity was made by who? You know who. The owners of this PRIVATE and deadly facility.

The 1958 Mark IV technology still shares one factor with 2010 nuclear plant designs. The common factor is that the waste has no place to go. France reprocesses the fuel pellets but even that process leaves dangerous products that have no proactical solution to keep life away from it for the next 25,000 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:56 PM

Sinsull-

The comparison can be made by you and others readily in this case. Compare what happened between Fukushima-1 nuclear complex with what happened at the newer Fukushima-2 nuclear complex located seven miles away, up or down the coast. Both plants were knocked off- line by the earthquake and were flooded by the tsunami. But operators regained control of Fukushima-2 without hydrogen explosions or having to make use of salt water as an improvised coolant. That's the easy answer to your questions. The details we won't learn for years.

My preliminary conclusion is that the newer technology may well have provided Fukushima-2 the extra edge to survive. But maybe its plant operators made fewer blunders. Or maybe the damage from the earthquake and tsunami was significantly less.

"Irrational diatribes," I agree, add little clarity to the situation but I do believe there is ample blame that can be and should be appropriately focused on the designers, the engineers, the owners, and the politicians in that order.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM

White smoke means a new pope has been elected. Vive la papa. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM

Sinsull

your quote "irrational diatribes" are a hysterical if not very sad example of how people ignore the 'Uber Truth' of a situation and remain mired in the muck of manufactured contrary versions of a story and an ignorance to the divide and conquer methods of lying by the owner class.

Writing from the highest perspective possible of the how and why things like nuclear disasters happen and will continue to happen is lost on you, If stupidity is the cause it may be misunderstood forever, but not to everyone.

I trust someone here does see the scholarship, common sense and perhaps the simple genius in my "diatribes" and "mini scripts" that explain more than an exposition of data. I believe it is important if not imperative to see the big picture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

This may have been posted before. Japan had 55 reactors (before the tsunami), providing 35 percent of Japan's electricity. All are in coastal locations.
Construction of four new complexes has been delayed for one year to allow for study of the Fukushima disaster.


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