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Is Geordie a separate language?

alex s 09 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Eliza 09 Mar 11 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Chris P 09 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Eliza 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM
Herga Kitty 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM
Folkiedave 09 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM
peregrina 09 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM
Dave MacKenzie 09 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM
Darowyn 09 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 09 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Eliza 09 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM
Dave Sutherland 09 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM
Allan Conn 09 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM
Arthur_itus 09 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM
C-flat 10 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,SID 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM
alex s 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM
DMcG 10 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM
DMcG 10 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM
Max Johnson 10 Mar 11 - 05:56 AM
Allan Conn 10 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM
Valmai Goodyear 10 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 10 Mar 11 - 08:04 AM
alex s 10 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM
Allan Conn 10 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM
Wheatman 10 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM
Sailor Ron 10 Mar 11 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,SID 10 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM
Wolfhound person 10 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Chris P 10 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM
Herga Kitty 10 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Eliza 10 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM
Edthefolkie 10 Mar 11 - 03:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM
alex s 10 Mar 11 - 06:39 PM
Geordie-Peorgie 10 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM
Gibb Sahib 10 Mar 11 - 08:58 PM
katlaughing 10 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM
C-flat 11 Mar 11 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 11 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM
BobKnight 11 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 11 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,henryp 11 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
alex s 11 Mar 11 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 11 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM
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Subject: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

Recently at a session I sang a couple of songs from Tyneside (being an authentic Geordie) and a girl asked me in all seriousness what language I was singing in....

[Mind, I feel the same when I listen to the Mighty Sid Calderbank (good luck with the show, Sid)]


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:40 PM

My Grandfather was born and lived all his life in North Shields. When my parents took me up there at the age of five, I couldn't understand a word anybody said. My Grandpa tried to teach me 'The Bladen Races' then took me down to his local, (air thick with baccy smoke) I tried my best but they dissolved into gales of laughter, as seated on the bar I sang 'The Blazing Races'. They called me the bairn, said things like 'Why aye', 'Haway' and discussed bets on the cuddies etc etc. I think Geordie has many Lowland Scots words in it, such as claggy (sticky) nettie (outside toilet) aye (yes) and so on.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Chris P
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Why Lowland Scots? Aye was always normal English too, down to the tip of the Isle of Wight, netty is proper Geordie, (perhaps from the Italian 'gabinetti'!) with no dictionary refs to Scotland, and claggy is straightforward Northern English, from the same word as clay.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

Most interesting Guest Chris P. Have you any idea where geographically Northern English stopped and normal English began? In Phonetics, we were taught that there is a dividing line across England where the 'a' in bath becomes short, but that's pronunciation not language of course.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

According to the CD notes for Jim Mageean's "Gan Canny", the Geordie dialect is a direct descendant of Anglo-Saxon....

And all 20 tracks on Jim's new CD are in Geordie dialect!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

I have always imagined the difference between a language and a dialect is that to be a language it needs separate a separate grammar system.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: peregrina
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM

My daughter's Norwegian boyfriend understands perfectly when a Geordie says he's 'gannin hyem'.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Darowyn
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

"Have you any idea where geographically Northern English stopped and normal English began? In Phonetics, we were taught that there is a dividing line across England where the 'a' in bath becomes short, but that's pronunciation not language of course. "
Normal?
Normal?
How dare you sir?

Northern English is normal! That lot down south with their long "a" copied from Spanish, and all the words slavishly adopted from their Norman masters don't know normal English from demotic Greek. Just because the BBC decide to use a south east midlands dialect, that doesn't make it the norm.

Anyway, you will not find a clear and straight dividing line. Just look at the place names. Some names are clearly Anglo Saxon, Ponders End, Sandy etc. Others are clearly Nordic, Fridaythorpe and Wetwang for example. Yet Rothersthorpe is a long way south on the M1, and Britonic names occur in the west midlands, Malvern being one.
It's just where our ancestors settled, and set about welding together four or five root languages to make our beautiful English Language.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM

I'm a Geordie who gets by in Lancashire though the old plaster / master thing tends to get to people - in Geordie we make the A vowels long, as in ART - but we still shorten them for PLASTIC and most other places, as in Newcastle, where the flatened A carries the stress. Different language? Part of the glorious regional diversity of English, but I had Irish, Scots, Pitmatic, RP and Mackum influences in their too, not to mention an education in Delaval where I freely mixed with kids from Seghill and Seaton Sluice. Is there any Folklore threads here about The Seghill Ring? About as far removed from Wagner as you wish, though my enduring memory of Seghill was the factory where they once made fibreglass minourettes for mosques. A true multi-cultural economy...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

Sorry, Darowyn, I was quoting Guest Chris P with regard to 'normal English'. I think we both meant 'standard RP English'. I think the BBC now try to include regional accents as much as possible for their presenters, which in my view is an excellent idea. Suibhne Astray, my sister traced our ancestors and centuries ago and one of them was the Customs Officer for Seaton Sluice.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

In South Shields it was the p in bath that was silent.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM

"My daughter's Norwegian boyfriend understands perfectly when a Geordie says he's 'gannin hyem'."

So do I! Does this mean Missouri is a province of Norway?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM

I went to YouTube and searched for Georgie dialect.

Wow, you people are serious about this northern-southern stuff, aren't you? It was an eye opener! Makes me proud, of course, that my forefathers came from the north.

Learn here about the Royal Society for the Protection of Northerners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTYNhWoLZ4&feature=related

PS Judging from the rate at which it is spoken, I believe Geordie is the father of Chicagoan.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM

"to be a language it needs separate a separate grammar system."

I think to be a language it just needs to be recognised as such - and as someone pointed out that often equates with having an army and a navy. For instance Scots used to be recognised as a language, then it wasn't, and now it is officially recognised again by the Scottish govt, UK govt and EU. There are various other regional or minority languages recognised in the UK for example Cornish, Scottish Gaelic etc. I think at some of the meetings concerning the European Charter etc there have been representatives from other groups there as onlookers only at this point. For example Romany speakers and folk from the Northumbrian Language Society. I imagine Geordie is really only one of the Northumbrian dialects. Just as there is no single dialect of Scots.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

Nothing like the Black Country Language/Dialect/Accent. I beleive the oldest in England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:If_yowm_saft_enuff.jpg


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: C-flat
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM

Living in Sunderland, I'm learning to distinguish (just about) the slight difference in accent between the Sunderland folk (Mackems) and the Newcastle folk (Geordies) 10 miles further along the road.
At a bakers shop I call into in Sunderland, the owners wife was complaining, in a broad Geordie/Sunderland accent, about how all the workmen, working on the road outside their shop, were Geordies!!!

I'm originally from Middlesbrough, just 30 miles South, and the Teeside accent has more in common with the Scouse/Liverpool accent over 100 miles away.
The Geordie accent seems to stop very close to Newcastle/Gateshead, still evident in Durham, but very much softened.
I think it's wonderful how we have so many completely different regional accents only a few miles apart but I often imagine how difficult it must be for foreign visitors, who must feel like they're crossing international boundaries every 30 miles!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM

Mackem is similar (coarser / urban) to the general Durham Dialect which has much in common with Teeside Dialects too (Vic Reeves is from Darlington / Bob Mortimer frrom Middlesbrough). You're going to hear Geordie dialects north of the Tyne primarily - old Northumberland as was - right up to Berwick (where you get a lot of Scots too, and bi-lingual road signs over the border which is absurd). You'll hear it in North Durham too (the Consett / Stanley axis) though by the time you're getting to Craghead & Sacriston it's sounding very Durham. Not sure about Scouse though, which has even less to do with Mancunian which is still closer. You hear a similar thing to Scouse in Southport, but nothing of that but a few miles away in Preston. As a kid I could hear the differences between Seghill, Backworth, Delaval & Seaton Sluice, but we could still talk to each other. Just goes to show how things develope in isolation. I dare say the old villages were Pitmatic in their day, but that takes real work. You still here an edge of it in rural Rothbury and even in Ashington & Blyth. All is flux though - difficult to pin down hard & fast rules.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,SID
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM

My friends in the Northumbrian Language Society (www.northumbriana.org.uk) reckon it is and I'm comfortable with that. Here's my humble, but considered, opinion. A thousand years ago, the ancient kingdom of Northumbria, as it's name suggests, covered all the land north of the Humber up to and including the Scottish Lowlands. Many scholars believe that this was the dominant language of all England and fragments of it survive in all the northern English dialects. From the 14th century and the establishment of Oxford & Cambridge Universities, the activities of Chaucer and later Shakespeare, the language of Mercia rose to prominence as it was understandable by people north of the Humber and South of the Thames. This "Midlands Dialect" was to become the language of the Empire - leaving us behind as somewhat old fashioned "Quaint Northerners".


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM

Ashington and Bedlington were/are the centre of Pitmatic.

North of there starts to become much more Northumbrian, with the soft rolling "r" sound you don't hear on Tyneside (it supposedly comes from one of the Percys' speech impediment) It's a bit like the French r e.g. in "Robert"

The West End of Newcastle, amazingly as it's only a few streets, also has a recognisable accent - I once surprised a hostess at the Dover ferry terminal by telling her exactly where she came from (and she told me exactly where to go...)

Like Suibhne, I can hear big differences in accents in Lancashire in places just a few miles apart - Blackburn and Burnley for example.
Also the names for the humble bread roll change every few miles! - tea cake, bread bun, bap, batch etc


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM

Out in Newcastle with a southerner and another northerner, we once had occasion to order two "scons" and a "scohne" ....


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM

(To be clear, that's what we asked for. It was not three people each asking for a single item)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:56 AM

Most of the differences in Northern accents (as opposed to North and South), are because after settlement by the Anglo-Saxons there was a later, not always peaceful settlement by the Norse. There was an even greater difference in language of course, and in the Dales (for example) folk in adjacent valleys separated by only a few miles use different words for the same thing. Place-names originated from the two different languages. Most of the North-West was, usually peacefully, invaded by Angles and not Saxons. The Norse arrived here late; not cross-country, but from Ireland and the Isle-of-Man. I've always thought it strange that Europe doesn't have a common language, let alone Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM

"right up to Berwick (where you get a lot of Scots too, and bi-lingual road signs over the border which is absurd)."

I think you may be exaggerating a tad. The Scottish Borders Region (ie the old Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Peeblesshire and Berwickshire)does not in general have bi-lingual road signs like they have in Wales or in parts of the Highlands. What it has is bilingual sings at several of the border crossings only. Basically as well as saying welcome to Scotland etc in English it has it in Gaelic too. As you are entering Scotland and Gaelic is a Scottish language I can't see why that is absurd? Arguably the only slightly absurd thing is that if they are doing it for flavour (that is to make the traveller aware they are entering somewhere different) then they don't also have it in Scots.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM

I'm interested in language as a living thing rather than for cultural / heritage / historical reasons - and whilst I've no problem with that (in general) I recently spent a bewildering hour in a Wesh bi-lingual Morrisons (just west of Chester) trying to fathom the mentality of a supermarket reflecting multi-lingual diversity! Organic diversity and common pragmatic usage intrigues me, but it's about individuals primarily, and individuals determine culture rather than the other way round. I guess that's why I find the bi-lingual road signs over the border north of Berwick absurd, just as I would road signs in dialect. My grandmother had perfect RP but could speak Pitmatic with the best of them - or was it the other way round? Talk about bi-lingual, but she could also talk with thrushes, robins and blackbirds and could put Ronnie Ronalde to shame...

Pitmatic was spoken in the colliery villages of Northumberland and Durham - I think what you hear in Bedlington and Ashington is more akin to rural Northumbrian, though there's bound to be cross overs. Tommy Armstrong was from the Stanley area and as a kid it was something the elderly miners spoke in Cambois and Backworth. Like I say, it was worked upon and pefected with pride, much like RP & many hip dialects are used with pride by people today though I don't think Pitmatic is amongst them!

A lot of Geordies took up Kidda and Though But as a consequence of watching Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads, where James Bolam's native Mackem sarcasm is both hilarious and inspirational, as the best Mackem is - like Scouse, so much of it is about attitude and empowerment, though you don't get the same level of mawkishness in Sunderland as you do in Liverpool. You do get Puro though, and offal, at least you used to in childhood days before refridgeration where as a kid I might turn my nose up at breakfasts of luke-warm puro out of a polystyrene keep-fresh in the scullery and a tea of tripe and trotters. My stomach turns to think of it even now...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

Come to the Lewes Saturday Folk Club in the next few weeks and decide for yourself:

Tom McConville & David Newey, 12th. March

Alistair Anderson, 19th. & 20th. March (yes, really, because he's also directing a performance of Steel Skies on the Sunday night)

Barrie & Ingrid Temple, 2nd. April

The Lewes Royal Oak folk club has just had Jim Bainbridge and will be presenting Jez Lowe on Thursday 21st. April. I think this cluster of bookings may be evidence of some kind of seasonal migration.

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:04 AM

Why Aye man!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM

Wandering Minstrel - is that you, Tom McC?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

"I guess that's why I find the bi-lingual road signs over the border north of Berwick absurd, just as I would road signs in dialect."

I'm really not sure what you are referring to. I live in the area you are talking about and there are basically no bilingual road signs apart from at some of the border crossings themselves where the welcome to Scotland signs etc are displayed in Gaelic too. I still don't really get why you seem to have a problem with those? Apart from those - and in the Borders we're are only actually talking about two situations at Lamberton and Carter Bar - there is no bilingual signing in the area either in Gaelic or Scots.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Wheatman
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

'avebeenawayfrom Chester le Street (known locally as Chesta) since 1972 but never lost the love of my Mid Durham dialect (pitmatic). The trouble is, every song I sing sounds as though it comes from the North East. I would say though, I am not and never been a Geordie even though The Crownsmen thought otherwise. The difference between Tyneside and Wearside is in my view, quite pronounced. Gan Canny (proceed with care and trepidation). Brian


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM

Sorry, Allan - maybe it is just a tourist thing on the border, like the pitwheel monuments erected by the old mining villages of Co. Durham to remind them of their heritage. Does Tradition only equate with Old Fashioned? The only thing to look forward to - the past. Actually, I don't think Quaking Houses gets many tourists these days, despite its prominence in the Stanley Green Corridor; not sure about Marley Hill though - and Chester-le-Street had a Saturday Market worthy of Tommy Armstrong's Stanley Market (though what the machine actually did maybe we'll never know) hopefully it still does - haven't been for years.

Since moving to Lancashire three years ago I've become more conscious of my Geordie roots - born in North Shields to a Mackem mother and a Northumbrian father, I was a fish largely indifferent of the water through which I swam. I've taken to singing a few more of the old songs & Border Ballads from the Minstrelsy (the old Northumbrian melody of Binnorie is one to die for) and Northern Bards etc. My favourite as a kid was always The Collier's Rant, which keeps getting older & older the more I look into it. I think the oldest date we have for it puts it around 1750! A common song in the NE both in Folk circles & out, though I see my wee version is still the only one on YouTube (HERE). Different language? You bet!

Anyone going to the Morpeth Gathering this year? We're doing a wee set of Border Ballads if anyone's interested, sharing the bill with Matt Seattle on Border Pipes.

And still no takers on The Seghill Ring? Well, according to legend Seghill only ever had the one Netty, the oaken orifice of which was thice-daily creosoted by the hasty honey-diggers for reasons of hygiene leaving the villagers indelibly stained.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 11:18 AM

aAl this duiscusion about changes of accent/dialect over very short distances remindes me of Harney Kershaw, the great Lancashire dialect poet. Once when asked how many Lancashire dialects there were, he replied "Four", quite perplexed at this the questioner said " Only four in the whole of Lancashire?". "Ee sorry lad I thowt thi meant in Rochdale"!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,SID
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM

Thanks for pointing me towards your songs sir, interesting interlude in an otherwise mundane day. (And you putting the words up is invaluable!)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM

I'll be at the Morpeth Gathering, Suibhne, in the usual place, but I'll see if I can take in Matt's and your event. Sounds good.

My kids were born to a Geordie father and a south-coast born mother (me)with Cirencester antecedents. When speaking to me as little 'uns they would refer to New CASTLE (long A) but to their dad as Newcassel.

Now I live in a village just north of Ashington (where pitmatic is alive and well) surrounded by mainly local neighbours who are either ex-pitmen or in a minority of families have Romany or traveller forebears.
The Ashington-born families speak with a different accent to those who've moved from more rural Northumberland, which is a softer speech, with a burr. A visit to the post office on pension day soon convinced me that Angle (which is what Northumbrian mainly is) is a separate language, and one to be treasured in all its own diversity.

The kids are all bi-lingual, too, speaking quite differently to adults in authority than they do to each other.

So noo aa "gan and seek" : aa divvent "go shopping". The bridleway at the bottom of the garden is "Jack's Lonnen".

I have friends on the E. side of Newcastle who speak differently to those in the western suburbs.

When the other half worked at Durham Uni he overheard one porter say to another: "Dost thoo not know tha should sign in" - which connects with another thread on the use of thy and thee. It still happens.

Relative to my village, I don't think any of the artistes mentioned have particularly pronounced accents, though they are recognizably North Eastern.

Paws


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Chris P
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

Guest Eliza asks where the dividing line between Northern and Southern English is, which as is evident above, is not so easy to answer as there are many threads to the story. However, Nottingham and Derby are considered to have northern accents.
By aye='normal' I meant that it's not dialect, as there is probably no part of England that doesn't have some historical use of it.
Interesting mention above of Scouse in south west Lancashire. It was always assumed by us kids that it was so different from Mancunian because it was closer to Ireland, which when you think about it a bit is absurd, as almost nobody in the northern industrial areas doesn't have some Irish antecedents.
The answer dawned on me some years ago when I was in a Welsh-speaking shop in North Wales. The rhythm, lilt and accent of the spoken Welsh was very like Scouse. It seems to me that the bedrock of the accent in that area of Lancashire must be Welsh/British, likewise much of the West Midlands.
Romany is an Indo-European language of its own, and can be traced right across Europe even today.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM

I remember Lou Killen, in a Whitby interview, reminiscing about visits to source singers in Northumberland and the difficulty of understanding the local dialect!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM

Guest Chris P, on my visits to Liverpool, I detected as you did a similarity to the Welsh accent among the Scouse speech. But the Irish is easily explained by the enormous influx of Irish immigrants following the Potato Famine. Many many Liverpool surnames are Irish. On the 'divide' between northern and southern pronunciation, I notice that Lincolnshire people have a very slight northern touch to their vowel sounds, but here in Norfolk, it's definitely 'southern'.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:59 PM

I didn't think it was a separate language until two blokes from Prudhoe turned up to do ma in law's gas boiler! I was teurtally lost man.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM

Referring to Alan Conn's first comment snip< - ""What it has is bilingual sings at several of the border crossings only."" - >snip, I rather like the idea of singing in two languages, though both Geordie and Scots Gaelic are way beyond my meagre talent.

Don T


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:39 PM

Edthefolkie - a former chairman of the Magpies was known to all as The Turtle. When he asked why he was told: because you always say - "Kevin Keegan has my turtle support"


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM

Somebody mentioned the fact that the Geordie accent is different on baith sides of Newcassel! Whey man! It's even mair localised than that! When aah wez a bairn we lived in Hampshire Gardens, Holy Cross Waallsend and the people in the next street, Sussex Gardens, spoke a different dialect! If ye went roond the corner intiv Bede Crescent it wez different again! Aah remember me Mam gannin inte wor kitchen (it wez caalled a scullery, then) te mek a cup of tea and when she came back wi' the cups we cuddent understand a bloody word she wez sayin'


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:58 PM

Accent =/= dialect, though it is part of it. But you'll have to do a lot better than that to argue for separate language. "Phonetic" eye-dialect spellings only confuse the issue. If after a little exposure the speech is mutually comprehensible, then its dialect, I'd think. Those what allegedly can't understand likely lack the exposure.

Keep in mind that a lot of American English speakers will claim they can't understand English English (whatever dialect), but who is saying they are different languages?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM

Great thread, folks! Reading and listening with great interest. Is Mark Knoplfer a Geordie? I ask because of his song "Why Aye, Man (sounds more like "Mawn")," which I love.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: C-flat
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 03:03 AM

Knopfler most certainly is a Geordie. As is Sting.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

A Geordie goes into Greggs near closing time, his dismay at the near empty shelves as harsh as his hunger.

"Whit can a hev? Whit can a hev?" quoth the agitated customer to the lass behind the counter, who calmly surveys her remaining wares.

"Well, pet - ye can hev the cheese pasty or a meringue."

"Nah, yer reet - I'll hev the cheese pastie!"

Note to non Geordies, the joke here is in the homophone of or a maringue to or am I wrang (wrong) as pronounced in the Geprdie dialect. In any case the joke was current in Tyneside folk circles about thirty years ago (I suspect c/o George Welsh) and wasn't that funny back then either, unless George told it of course when he'd have us all rolling. There was a lesser one about Bounty chocolate bars along the lines of "It tastes of coconuts!" "Whey, it's bounty!" (bound tee (to)) - but the classic was "I'm not feeling too grand" which requires too much scene setting to be effective here.

*

Once upon a time you could stand in the queue at Greggs (in the Grainger Market) and hear four or five different words for stotties (yeasties, flatties, roundies, moonies and several more I can't recall) depending on what area of Newcastle they were from. Funny how Greggs make the perfect stottie and yet haven't taken it with them on their quest to put a shop on every British high street - especially when you can buy something called a Stotty from Asda in Blackpool. Not bad either, though the North West has its own treasures in the Yeasty White Half-baked Bread class - all of which have been discussed over on the Re-Imagined Village thread.

Does anyone know if the famous Gregg's Seconds Shop is still there? A popular feature of Newcastle's West End (Arthur's Hill) it once featured in Pravda as an illustration of how the English Proletariat were so poverty stricken they were forced to queue for yesterday's bread. Fact is, Gregg's stuff was always better the next day and even sweeter at half-price! Heaven sent for the penny-pinching early risers of Tyneside who'd rather spend their money on fags and beer.

*

Looking forward to Morpeth - note the singaround on the Friday night! Not just singers either - in previous years it's been an open session for musicians, poets, writers, storytellers and wrestlers... Come All Ye!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: BobKnight
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM

Knopfler lived in Glasgow until he was around eight years old.

I noticed a while back that Geordies say "telt," as in "told," the same as us North-East Scots, and "bairns," too of course.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM

Naw Aa's not Tom (but I ken him fine and he's a canny lad, ye knaw) Just an aad folkie from Waalker me.
Ony road, if yer ever in wor fine city you only need to knaa te phrases, "Hoositganninatthematch?" and "gizabroonJack!" and you will be instantly at hyem in any company


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

My parents too - one from Lincolnshire, one from Devon - would argue over the pronunciation of the letter a in words like bath and castle.

Wikipedia, the source of all knowledge, says; "The presence or absence of this [trap-bath] split is one of the most noticeable differences between different accents of English English. An isogloss runs across the Midlands from the Wash to the Welsh border, passing to the south of the cities of Birmingham and Leicester.

North of the isogloss, the vowel in most of the affected words is usually the same short-a as in cat; south of the isogloss, the vowel in the affected words is generally long. (Gupta 2005)"


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 09:29 AM

Gibb Sahib - it was a lighthearted question, not an argument....


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM

But to a speaker of Japanese it's a very different language indeed; in fact, my man in Tokyo who's fluent in English can't make out Geordie only to distinguish it from Scots. But then I've met Welsh speakers who've taken me for Welsh...


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