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Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.

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SWEENEY TODD THE BARBER


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Lyr Req: Sweeny Todd the Barber (30)


GUEST,HotFlash 28 Feb 11 - 02:08 PM
Desert Dancer 28 Feb 11 - 01:53 PM
Noreen 28 Feb 11 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 27 Feb 11 - 12:04 PM
Cats 27 Feb 11 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 26 Feb 11 - 06:45 PM
maire-aine 26 Feb 11 - 05:21 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Feb 11 - 03:58 PM
Joe Offer 26 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM
EBarnacle 26 Feb 11 - 02:13 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Feb 11 - 01:37 PM
Cats 26 Feb 11 - 01:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Feb 11 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 26 Feb 11 - 10:54 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Feb 11 - 09:43 AM
Joe Offer 26 Feb 11 - 02:42 AM
Haruo 26 Feb 11 - 02:19 AM
Joe Offer 25 Feb 11 - 11:56 PM
Haruo 25 Feb 11 - 06:45 PM
Dave MacKenzie 25 Feb 11 - 06:29 PM
Mrs.Duck 25 Feb 11 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,henryp 25 Feb 11 - 01:02 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Feb 11 - 05:23 PM
Dave MacKenzie 24 Feb 11 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,HughM 24 Feb 11 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 24 Feb 11 - 11:30 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Feb 11 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Wonderwall 24 Feb 11 - 08:21 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Feb 11 - 07:13 AM
Valmai Goodyear 24 Feb 11 - 02:55 AM
nager 24 Feb 11 - 12:38 AM
Joe Offer 23 Feb 11 - 09:55 PM
Tug the Cox 23 Feb 11 - 08:12 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 11 - 07:59 PM
Joe Offer 23 Feb 11 - 07:59 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 11 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,henryp 23 Feb 11 - 07:49 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 11 - 07:38 PM
Noreen 23 Feb 11 - 07:35 PM
Dave MacKenzie 23 Feb 11 - 07:29 PM
Noreen 23 Feb 11 - 07:27 PM
Joe Offer 23 Feb 11 - 07:11 PM
Bernard 23 Feb 11 - 06:58 PM
Noreen 23 Feb 11 - 05:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Feb 11 - 05:02 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Feb 11 - 04:54 PM
Noreen 23 Feb 11 - 03:49 PM
Van 23 Feb 11 - 03:23 PM
Bo 23 Feb 11 - 02:51 PM
Haruo 23 Feb 11 - 02:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,HotFlash
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 02:08 PM

Best pasty ever: Suomi Cafe in Copper Harbor, in Michigan's UP. The cook came out with a glass of flour and water paste to paint the words 'Hot Pasties' on the window when they were just coming out of the oven. Maybe it was the clear, crisp air (the UP in early June) but 50yrs later I can taste them like it was right now.

PS. Cornish-from-Cornwall neighbour of mine told me that proper pasties had *three* kinds of boiled meat -- mutton, beef and pork -- all fatty ('men like fatty meat') plus diced onion, potato, turnip and (maybe) carrot, moistened with broth and baked in a stiff crust. This is not a short crust,ie, not made with a lot of shortening, so more like a traditional British meat pie crust, which was mainly flour and water. It was intended as a baking pan than an edible, has more in common with pottery than pastry. She told me that miner's wives (such as her mum)would send their husband's off to the mines with a couple of hot pasties wrapped in a towel in their dinnerpaid and they would still be, well, not hot maybe, but warm at dinnertime (ie, noon meal). A hot meal in a cold, damp mine -- a good thing to send with your man underground.

She also told me about working in a little Cornish resort hotel when she was a girl. One of the permanent guests was a titled lady who send her laundry out -- to the south of France, where the laundresses ironed marvelous crystal pleats into her underwear. She also told me that the bootblacks blacked not just the uppers but the soles of gentlemen's shoes, as it wouldn't do for their shoes to look actually *walked in*. Thank you, neighbour Joyce, peace be to you.

--


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 01:53 PM

To clarify on Joe's distinction between pasty, calzone, and pirozhki: the latter two use a yeasted dough for the crust. The calzone's is basically the same as a pizza dough, the pirozhki looks more like a bread dough (not as crusty). A pasty crust is an unlevened short crust, like a plain savory pie dough.

All of these are baked, rather than fried or steamed. It's pretty hard to think of a culture that doesn't have a native filled-dough (or at least bread-wrapped) food item (or items). Maybe the Inuit.

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:11 AM

It is mouth-watering reading this thread isn't it, MaryAnne!

The best pasty I've ever had was in Sidmouth (Devon) last summer- very light pastry and loads of filling : )


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 12:04 PM

People like me, who adore the crust, would have eaten the arsenic impregnated crust - and the thrown away the dodgy looking (and tasting) turnip. That little stall on the beach at Carbis bay used to sell these pasties that had turnips inside that tasted like old newspapers. However there was alot of pepper on the turnip (newspaper) - so with a nice strong cup of tea, you didn't really mind.

It wasn't poison, or anything.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Cats
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:19 AM

Dear Alan,

Arsenic on the outside crust of the pasty, not the inside, which is why they throw the crust away. They hold it by the crust so they don't ingest the arsenic... until they lick their fingers!

Dioxins were only around Camelford and that was years ago, some of us, in fact most of us didn't drink the water.

Radon can be dreadful but I live on the moors and don't have a hint of it in my house and I have been tested [so's the house]and neither do many places in Cornwall

So perhaps we aren't all 3 headed monsters looking for independence or about to commit suicide.. although I do know one or two who would fit that bill!!! :-)
Cats


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 06:45 PM

I'm not really clear on why the arsenic is safer on the crust than on the inside of the pasty.

Mind you, you can see how it might have a distinctive taste.

What a great place Cornwall must be. Radon in the air. Dioxin in the water. Arsenic on the pasties.

Which will they achieve first? independence or mass suicide.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: maire-aine
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:21 PM

I held out as long as I could. But, after watching this thread for four days, I had to pay a visit to Barb's Pasties in Clawson MI for a UP-style beef pasty. Yum!

Maryanne


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 03:58 PM

Haven't tasted that but know of it, Joe, because there was some kind of documentary here a while back where the presenter tried some.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM

WAV asks: What crusty offering did you like with your beer stein in Germany, Joe?

Well, actually I got hooked on Currywurst - cheap sausage sliced up, with something like ketchup on it, and curry powder on top of that. It was served in a paper tray and one used a toothpick to pick up the slices and eat. No bread or bready stuff with it at all.

Schmackhaft!

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:13 PM

For further discussion about pasties, you can read the "Cat Who" series by Lillian Jackson Braun. There is discussion of what makes a good one every three or 4 books in the series.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 01:37 PM

...see, I told you, Alan. ;-)>


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 01:26 PM

Living where I do I wouldn't touch a Ginsters pasty! There are far superior ones available in many of the small bakers all over Cornwall. The Chough in Padstow sells excellent ones but the very best come from the lady at our village Farmers Market.
The reason miners did not eat the crust was because a by product of copper is arsenic. They would take a pasty as snap, eat the pasty, throw the crust away, then lick their fingers!
My recipe is a round of shortcrust pastry, add in a layer of thinly sliced or chopped potato, the same of onion, a touch of turnip [which is the swedish turnip or swede] then skirt, chunks Never minced, top with a teaspoon of clotted cream, salt and pepper fold and crimp along the edge and bake. Eat hot straight out of the oven holding it in a bag or a piece of kitchen roll but never on a plate with a knife and fork.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:04 AM

You forgot the chorus as solution to that problem, Alan!...

Oggie, Oggie, Oggie;
Oi, Oi, Oi!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 10:54 AM

A famous make of Cornish pasty
Caused many a rhinoplasty
Both crust and interior
Were really inferior
And smelled quite incredibly nasty.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 09:43 AM

What crusty offering did you like with your beer stein in Germany, Joe?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:42 AM

I dunno, Haruo. I think of griddlecakes and flapjacks being the same thing. Pasties, pirozhki, calzone, beerocks, Sweeney Todd meat pies, lumpia, and dim sum all have similar definitions, but they are all quite different in the execution.
And they all taste great with beer.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Haruo
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:19 AM

Ah, rather like the distinction betwixt griddlecakes and flapjacks, eh? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 11:56 PM

Hi, Harue-
A pasty has a pie-like crust (folded over and crimped and baked), with beef, onion, and potato filling (sometimes cabbage and other ingredients)

A calzone has a similar crust, but with fillings like what you'd find on top of spaghetti or pizza.

Pirozhki have a breadier crust, with beef, onion, and potato or cabbage filling.

You didn't ask, but click here for information about beerocks.

All of them go well with beer, and I like them all very much.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:45 PM

How does a pasty differ from a calzone or a pirozhok? Aside from being more likely to hail from Kernow, that is?...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:29 PM

I agree with Mrs Duck. I can get Ginsters' or West Cornwall Pasty Co, or if I want a good pasty, I'll go to the Farmers Markets and probably get them from ia Orchard Pigs (just outside Wrexham).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:08 PM

I think it is ridiculous. Cornish pasty refers to the recipe not place of baking just as a Yorkshire pudding refers to a type of baked batter. I wouldn't want a Ginsters pie that's been sitting in a packet for weeks when I can buy something fresh from the bakers. Our baker sells many different sorts of pasty, the Cornish being just one type.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 01:02 PM

Brenda Wootton - see above - naturally had her own recipe for Cornish pasty. A copy comes with the book Pantomime Stew, reminiscences of her life and family photographs. It's available from her daughter - see http://www.brendawootton.com/index.html


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 05:23 PM

Okay, Dave - as I say, it was new to me, but, frankly, the above site does say it's become a well-known rhyme.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 05:16 PM

"Aussie, Aussie, Aussie; Oi, Oi, Oi"

Never heard it. Everywhere I've been it's "Oggie, Oggie, Oggie". Have a listen to the Crusaders v Bradford Bulls on Saturday.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 03:18 PM

leeneia - Glad you liked it!

PeterC - Yes, Cornish means "from Cornwall", but surely in this context most people in the U.K. (and maybe the U.S.A.) would understand that to mean that it was the recipe that came from Cornwall and not necessarily the pasty. Similarly I had Lancashire hot-pot the other day and I don't think it was made in Lancashire. I also suspect that if I were served Black Forest gateau in Hamburg, it wouldn't have been made in the Black Forest.

gnomad - I like the stegosaurus description. Maybe that's the answer to the problem. Mind you, the European Commission would probably complain that they didn't contain any stegosaurus!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 11:30 AM

I `ad that Rick Stein in my cab the other day. I knew `ed just come up from Padstow `cos `e `ad a picture of "Chicko" in "The Golden Lion" sticking out of `is pocket. `e did not look at all `appy.
I said, "Morning Rick. Whassup? Recession getting you down and the customers beginning to baulk at your prices?".
`e said, " Nah Jim. It`s those pratts in Brussels going on about the oggies."
I said, "Well, it`s only right, ennit? Imagine Cornish pasties from Bradford. You wouldn`t know what you`re getting in `em."
`e said, "Nah, it`s not that Jim. I`ve been getting away with flavoured Icelandic cod for ages now they tell me I`ve gotta put beef in `em!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 09:35 AM

Another stanza - in the same, above, metre and abca rhyme scheme...

And, for health or as bad-luck blockers,
    The, leftover, thick crimped crust-base -
Having had mining hands on it -
    Would, by some, be ditched to the "Knockers."


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,Wonderwall
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 08:21 AM

I thought it said Cornish Patsy and my heart sank. Thank heavens it is a food stuff rather than a noisy bird.

WW


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 07:13 AM

Oi!! According to this site, the sports fans' chant "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie; Oi, Oi, Oi" is far from original: tin-miners' wives would call "Oggie, Oggie, Oggie", down the mine, when the pasties were ready; and miners would recognise that with "Oi, Oi, Oi".

With that as a chorus, I could turn my above poem into a song, I suppose..?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 02:55 AM

The regional speciality with meat at one end and sweet at the other is Bedfordshire Clanger , which is made with steamed suet pastry rather than baked shortcrust pastry as the pasty is.

The confusion may arise from the song quoted in this thead.

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: nager
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 12:38 AM

I have a cousin from Cornwall who makes the most delicious Cornish Pasties to the traditional Cornish recipe. She lives in Australia though. Don't try to tell her she can't call them Cornish Pasties!!!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 09:55 PM

Well, Steve, if you're going to talk meat pies, then I'm going to have to link this whole lot to "Sweeney Todd the Barber"....


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 08:12 PM

Everyone knows that the best pasties are made by Moores in Exmouth,,,loads of other good pasties in Devon....why should them Cornish foreiners grab the market!!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:59 PM

If you happen to be in the north-west of England, eschew pasties altogether and consume, instead, Greenhalgh's meat and potato pies. I get mine from the shop next to Bury Market. I can manage two, with one of those little plastic forks, straight from the paper bag, on a cold February afternoon, sittng on the draughty bench just outside the bargain CD shop, letting the starlings have a few crumbs. When in Rome. And someone up there mentioned "ground beef" in relation to pasties. Serve a pasty with ground beef in Kernow and within hours the Cornish Army will have ransacked your house and stolen your daughters. It must be skirt, y'hear?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:59 PM

Now, Garg, I wouldn't say Beerocks and pasties are the same thing. Beerrocks are popular in Fresno, California, brought there by White Russian settlers. They're a mixture of ground beef, onion, cabbage, and black pepper, with a dinner roll baked around the outside. Taste great with beer.
I've noticed that the name "beerock" sounds very similar to the sound of the Russian/Polish work "pierogi," another form of dough baked around meat, cabbage, and onions.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:50 PM

As a long-time denizen of Kernow, my advice apropos of pasties is as follows. If you're in true, deepest Cornwall, seek out Ann's pasties in Lizard village. You need to check her opening times. Failing that, seek out Crantock bakery's pasties. They really understand what meat should be therein and how it should be in the mouth. Further east, in the part of Cornwall I live in, you won't go far wrong with Barnecutt's pasties, made in Rock just round the corner from Sharp's brewery, but disseminated far and wide throughout the county (this end at least). Don't even think of buying a pasty and taking it home for later. You have to eat it hot, straight from the shop, walking through the street, or else it's only fit for giving to the seagulls.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:49 PM

There's something about a pasty, There's something about a pasty
There's something about a pasty that is fine fine fine

It may be the way you make it, It may be the way you bake it
It may be the way you hang it on the line line line

You can keep your fancy dishes, My one and only wish is
To see them pasties marching out in line line line

When you taste that 'ansome crust, You could eat until you bust
There's something about a pasty that is fine fine fine!

Brenda Wootton, La Grande Cornouaillaise


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:38 PM

I have known the similar/same...under the name:
Beer Rocks
Kraut Burgers
Kraut Runzis

Our covering is yeast raised bread rolled thin. (Not the nasty lard infused lead of the UK pubs)

Our insides include ground-beef,onions,and cabbage.

Most of the "pasty" I have consumed in the UK are nasty with stringy meat or organ-bellows-organs ...they invoke visions of "The Mad Barber of Fleet Street."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Some of England's most noted exports ... are music and film ... which present a view ... that is less than inviting to tourists.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:35 PM

At the risk of skewing this into a cookery thread... when as we all know it is a music thread...
Goosnargh cakes!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:29 PM

I suppose I'll just have to stick to 'Traditional Pasties' in future.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:27 PM

Just rename them Corniche pasties- easy! And topsie can claim royalties on the name :)

(Bernard- what's a Goosnargh cake? Can't see it catching on- I picture it as something found in a farmyard... but that could be due to my memories of dancing a ceili in a Goosnargh farmyard...)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:11 PM

So, is the US going to have a trade war with the EU, if we refuse to rename our Cornish pasties?

I remember the Cornish pasties at the Wisconsin State Fair in Milwaukee. Oh, they were heavenly.....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Bernard
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 06:58 PM

Hmmmm... Eccles Cake... Manchester Tart... Chorley Cake... Goosnargh Cake...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 05:56 PM

Thanks WAV- good programme tonight.

Listen again: Mike Harding with June Tabor 23/02/11

June's version of 'Oggie Man' is at 37.40 min.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 05:02 PM

I've never seen one, but I like the idea of meat at one end and apple at the other. Aussie pasties can also be 'vege only' too.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 04:54 PM

June Tabor's recording of Cyril Tawney's "OGGY MAN" was on BBC R2's Mike Harding programme tonight.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 03:49 PM

Where is the note missing, Haruo? It sounds fine to me.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Van
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 03:23 PM

The protectected status is not a result of some beaurocrat in Brussells it was some thing someone in Cornwall wantedd. I suppose the approved mark for a genuine one will be "Ginsters".


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Bo
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 02:51 PM

I'm all in favour of protecting things when they deserve it, there are too many things disappearing year by year. For the time being I will avoid climbing on that high horse.
Nobody has said what you are supposed to do with the pasty crust - the miners used to throw it deep down in the mine to please the knockers. Happy knockers will lead you to the rich lodes. The farm workers throw the crusts out for the birds with the hope that they will stay off the crops.
Bo, in Cornwall thus an expert. Just ask The Barden of England


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cornish Pasty to be a protected species.
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 02:09 PM

Angus' Cornish Meat Pasties [pic] (thread) were very readily available in the Seattle area in the mid-to-late 1970s, from a restaurant, the Unicorn Pub, on the Ave (i.e. University Way) as well as in the refrigerated entree case in supermarkets, but I haven't seen them in recent years, maybe decades. The restaurant eventually became (and may still be) Gargoyles.

Incidentally, it sounds to me like there's a note missing in the Oggy Man tune (either that, or too many syllables in the text).

Haruo


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