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The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper

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Nigel Parsons 25 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,ChrisP 25 Feb 11 - 03:03 PM
Mick Woods 25 Feb 11 - 08:34 AM
Vin2 21 Feb 11 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Desi C 20 Feb 11 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Jon 20 Feb 11 - 07:05 AM
Brian May 20 Feb 11 - 03:58 AM
Acorn4 19 Feb 11 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Jon 19 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM
Jack Campin 19 Feb 11 - 06:03 PM
olddude 19 Feb 11 - 05:17 PM
Acorn4 19 Feb 11 - 05:03 PM
Acorn4 19 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM
Jack Campin 19 Feb 11 - 01:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 11 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 11 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir 18 Feb 11 - 06:16 PM
autoharpbob 18 Feb 11 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Jon 18 Feb 11 - 03:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 03:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir 18 Feb 11 - 02:05 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 11 - 02:02 PM
Acorn4 18 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 11:01 AM
Spleen Cringe 18 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 18 Feb 11 - 09:10 AM
The Sandman 18 Feb 11 - 07:47 AM
Acorn4 18 Feb 11 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Jon 18 Feb 11 - 12:50 AM
Little Hawk 17 Feb 11 - 06:27 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 11 - 03:59 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM
Little Hawk 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 03:39 PM
The Sandman 17 Feb 11 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Penguin Egg aka 2CheersforTahir 17 Feb 11 - 03:00 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM
Little Hawk 17 Feb 11 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM
Brian May 17 Feb 11 - 01:00 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 11 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Feb 11 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM
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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM

As I said at the start of this discussion, I think this is better suited to BS.
I think the whole discussion (with very few exceptions) is muck-raking of the worst kind.

The thread was moved to BS for a while, and, if it had originaly been posted there would have been deleted as going against the forum rules, as it was started by a 'Guest'.
Do we really need this sort of discussion here?

    You know, does it really make a difference, whether it's in the Music or BS section, or whether it exists or doesn't exist? Is it really important?
    I realize there is a significant cultural difference here. If Europeans find speech distasteful, they firmly believe that something must be done about it, that it must be suppressed or at least significantly contained.
    If Americans find speech distasteful, they firmly believe it must be allowed - but actively ignored.
    The thread was moved to the non-music section by a European moderator whose judgement I admire and respect. Nonetheless, I countermanded his action because there's nothing in our policy or precedents that allows moving threads to non-music simply because they are distasteful. I don't know that we will ever find a middle ground between these two points of view. Such is life.
    All that being said, I must say that I also find the thread distasteful.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,ChrisP
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:03 PM

Well, that would seem to cover it.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Mick Woods
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:34 AM

From Roy's Page

2009 Note. I note with sadness that since the Twin Towers crime in 2001, 'The Black Cloud Of Islam', which of course was written in 1989, has often been used by xenophobes and others in the kind of racial context I warned against originally. I did think about it at the time, and I did say in the original text of these notes (in the original sleeve notes) 'I have asked myself many times whether this song can in any way be construed as racist, as that would be the last thing I should ever want it to be. It isn't.' In 2010, one of our tasks here at this small record company, every day, is to take down the ever-sprouting Youtube and other IT concoctions which use this song's lyric in an inflammatory and racist manner. It will be a permanent job for the foreseeable future to make sure that this song is not used in a racist manner. I also said, in 1989, (in the original sleeve notes), that it was my own belief that if the 'hard-line Islamic states continued to give credence to the same attitudes of fundamentalism, then some kind of a religious war would ensue'. This prediction was correct; which brings me no joy at all. It rather brings me anger, because obviously, if people like me knew at the time, then what the hell were my political contemporaries doing about the problem? In a word, NOTHING.

No attempts were made to reach out, to take context into consideration, and to negotiate at a respectful level with people who were about to become absolutely intractable. In those days, just 20 years ago, the way that religion was allowing itself to be used and abused was becoming dangerous. In the twenty first century, to the obvious delight of its perpetrators, who are seemingly racist themselves, fundamental Islam has become a guerrilla movement. Thousands of 'martyrs' have now been allowed to spawn a movement that's going to be difficult to contain. For lots of convenient little reasons, 'the great and the good' will never agree with this. As I've said before, religion has gone mad, and has been allowed to take most of the gullible, superstitious world population with it. Currently, there is perhaps hope of a little more rapprochement than there has been with Barack Obama as US President, though this is very unlikely to address the underlying feasibility of religion itself.

Though many may turn a blind eye to terrorism because it offers them some kind of platform where once there was none, the great majority of the Muslim people will probably eventually opt for a less tense world. However, I believe that they will only do that from a position of strength and trust that at this moment they neither have nor feel. This will only be achieved with the spread of education, rights and equality. World peace will only ever be achieved with the consensus of the entire population of the world. Leaders can only point and offer advise; in the end it will be purely down to the grass roots to take the necessary steps to own themselves and their own minds. It is only they who can. In my own view, organized religion in its present form has to be almost completely abandoned. Admittedly, it's had its place as a focus for community, but at the same time, it's divisive, oppressive, obstructive, largely dishonest, contentious, manipulative, contemptuous, fictional, locally depraved, a virtual opiate, fallacious, hugely political, often tyrannical and is all too easily abused. Religion used to be the tool of choice for the maintenance of old authority, it's now in danger of being allowed to undermine new authority. The polling booths remain open. Misinform the young at your own future world peril.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Vin2
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 08:53 AM

Now if all those who wish to stone, maim, blow up, disfigure etc etc vented their anger on Mudcat instead, the world be a much safer place eh folks ? Or am i being naive ?

'The only one who knows this ounce of words is just a token is he who has a tongue to tell, but must remain unspoken'...Moondog.

I wonder what he apes are doing on this planet......na, best not go there!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 08:29 AM

Re the Koran and being rewritten etc , well, The Koran, Bible and I'm sure all such religious operating manuals, have been extensively re written uncountable times over the centuries, by numerous people asnd groups. Who'se motives have been to make it say what they want others to believe. Human beings, being 95% sheep minded will believe any old rubbish wrapped up in some 'religeous' cover. In fact the Koran even as recently as the 60's when I looked into, it was very much a book of love, peace, and philosophy. Now, it is a hate filled comic at best, and a homicide instruction book at worst.

But, with all these books, which at various periods in history have been interpreted by those who like to control others, to wage war on their fellow man only for the reason of them 'not being like us' What baffles me constantly is why, IF these boooks urge you to murder, and murder in the most horrific way, ,not just soldiers, but mainly innocent women, men and children, IF that is what you interpret these books to be saying, why do you not check yourself into a good Psychiatrist pronto, because sick as the writers may be, surely your mind it even sicker for believing it! Why not simply do as I do and believe in YOURSELF, it's free and harms no one


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 07:05 AM

Perhaps we need to start getting more pedantic over terminology, Brian. Religion, faith or spirituality are commonly used interchangeably and it can be difficult to know how to respond or to phrase things.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 03:58 AM

Guest 999

The 'racist bigot' bit was on another thread about Muslim Prejudice.

I think Roy Harper's aim is to provoke comment, Islam is not treated specially - and indeed, it highlights how tenets of respect, gentleness and love are manipulated for zealots' own agendas.

Religion has very little to do with God (whatever the flavour).

There was very little point in me repeating my beliefs, so I didn't.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 07:42 PM

"I don't see anything in that comment of Harper's that in any way objects to the Nazis using his song as an anthem or trying to take it back from them."

Jack, Roy Harper hasn't been on the folk scene for donkeys' years.

You've really got to understand this song in the context of his whole output -have we actually established that he's aware the song has been hi-jacked by the BNP?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM

And for the record, olddude, it is personal to me but to me, it being personal and seeking company are not mutually exclusive.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 06:03 PM

I don't see anything in that comment of Harper's that in any way objects to the Nazis using his song as an anthem or trying to take it back from them.

Many other people on the UK folk scene have taken a stand against their work being used as weapon by the fascists.

Harper hasn't.


his lyrics, was, unlike most of the stuff produced at that time, they made you think

I've heard people say that about "Mein Kampf", too.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 05:17 PM

Jon is right, I am neither right or wrong. I can only state what works for me. Everyone has their own path to follow in life. Lots of beautiful churches also, I tend to visit from time to time, but for me it is always personal and only personal. For me it works fine. I like my relationship with God as I see him.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 05:03 PM

...I've just been looking at Roy Harper's blog and this is how he explains the song:-

"I wrote 'the black cloud of islam' when it became obvious to me that islam had evolved into the same instrument of modern mass murder which christianity has been for so long. And in the name of virtually the same tin pot god. I would like to be far more profane at this point than I am being here and now but I feel the need to preserve as much dignity as I can in the present circumstance."


"My real beef with islam is that once the religious fanatics had a real hold on the lives of the people, sometime after the eleventh century, all learning ground to a halt, and the only teachings available were almost all religious. So after some really solid scholarship, there followed the best part of a millennium of total darkness. A form of ignorance akin to the dogmatic foundations of the christian and hebrew faiths. Hence my metaphor 'The Black Cloud Of Islam'. No one should be surprised. I thought that my wording was apt, and after all, my criticism of christianity goes much further than just the one song."

The full entry is at:-http://www.royharper.co.uk/blog/?p=49#more-49


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM

I remember reading an interview with Roy Harper in the "Melody Maker" in the seventies when he said that on some things he was to the left of Trotsky and on others very Right leaning.

The point about his lyrics, was, unlike most of the stuff produced at that time, they made you think.

!And I'm just a social experiment tailored to size,
I've been through the national machine and the welfare surprise
I'm the rich man, the poor man, the peace man the war man, the beast,
The festive consumer who ends up consumed in the feast."

McGoohan's Blues from "Folkjokeopus", 1969

Seven years before punk!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:38 PM

I have had a fairly thorough look through Harper's website and I have found no mention of Folk Against Fascism or any statement dissociating himself from the neo-Nazi use of his song.

Most of his political statements are electionering on behalf of the Liberal Party. Well, we now know all too well what they stand for on a national level, and they've had a pretty appalling record of collaboration with local racists for decades.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 10:02 AM

The symbolic empty shrine bears the words: "Mustafa Mahmoud Mazeh, born Conakry, Guinea. Martyred in London, August 3, 1989. The first martyr to die on a mission to kill Salman Rushdie."

Although the name Mazeh, the alias of an unknown 21-year-old Lebanese, will be familiar to students of Islamic terrorism, the inscription appears to confirm an assassination attempt that has never been admitted by the British security services.
In February 1989, Ayatollah Khomeini, Iran's leader, placed a fatwa on Rushdie and offered $2.5 million to a "zealous Muslim" who would kill him Rushdie went into hiding and was protected by British security forces until 1998 Rushdie's Japanese translator was stabbed to death in 1991, and his Italian translator and Norwegian publisher were also attacked.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article531110.ece

Some publicity stunt Don!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 09:52 AM

Don,
"Of course it is his by right, but are you seriously telling me that you believe he would have made twopence halfpenny if not for the very well publicised "death threat"."

He was appointed a Knight Bachelor by Queen Elizabeth II for "services to literature" in June 2007.[4] He holds the rank Commandeur in the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres of France. He began a five-year term as Distinguished Writer in Residence at Emory University in 2007.[5] In May 2008 he was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Letters. In 2008, The Times ranked Rushdie thirteenth on their list of "The 50 greatest British writers since 1945".
Midnight's Children, catapulted him to literary notability. It significantly shaped the course that Indian writing in English followed over the next decade, and is regarded by many as one of the great books of the last 100 years. This work won the 1981 Booker Prize and, in 1993 and 2008, was awarded the Best of the Bookers as the best novel to have received the prize during its first 25 and 40 years.

I suggest, Don, that he was not that desperate for publicity and stunts.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 06:16 PM

Don T, Of course the Muslim Council did not back the murder of Rushdie, but a cell of fanatical muslims, not answerable to the Council, would only have been too willing to carry it out. Look at the London bombings. The bombers didnt get permission for that from anyone, did they?

Yes, Rushdie kept popping up, but no-one knew where he was popping up from. He had to keep moving location for his own safety. And I am shocked that you think it is just a publicity stunt.

You can keep your bridge. I was the one who sold it to you in the first place.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: autoharpbob
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:49 PM

I just feel rather sorry that someone who wrote such beautiful songs as "East of the Sun" and "Francesca" now comes out with stuff like this, which, at best is open to misinterpretation, and at worst is harmful bigotry.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:30 PM

You and Dan have it exactly right Eliza.

No Don. That they share your view does not make them right or wrong.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:20 PM

""And what is all the "scads of lovely lolly" refer to? Is it the money he made from The Satanic Verses? Well, he is the author. Is it not rightly his?""

Of course it is his by right, but are you seriously telling me that you believe he would have made twopence halfpenny if not for the very well publicised "death threat".

Scenes of Muslims dancing in the streets are two a penny, and isn't it strange that, although his whereabouts were supposed to be secret, he kept popping up here and there and nobody tried to collect on all those Houris.

British Muslim leaders at the time said that the Fatwah was a product of the fundamentalist theocracy of Iran, and that no attempt would be made to carry it out in the UK.

If you believe that it wasn't a stunt I have this nice Bridge for sale, very cheap. It goes up and down to let ships...........

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:06 PM

""And many a holy person (of whatever persuasion) has lived quietly in solitude and become close to their God. As you say, 'a beautiful thing'. I shall have to think some more about your viewpoint, thank you for posting it!""

You and Dan have it exactly right Eliza.

Those of us who believe in a divine being can express our faith without ever entering a Church, Temple, Mosque, or Synagogue.

What fundamentalists don't seem capable of understanding is that we all pray to the same being, no matter what we call him.

Only our Prophets differ, and the religious organisations which have built up around the teachings of those prophets are all about controlling the faithful, and with fear of dire punishment and the promise of possible eternal bliss, keeping them in line.

That is the difference between religion and faith.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM

The silence, and with silence comes tacit approval, from liberals and the Left staggered me


I don't think there was silence. And there wasn't silence when Theo van Gogh was murdered in Amsterdam. You mistake the refusal to apportion collective blame for silence.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:05 PM

I have left my name off it again. I apologise.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:02 PM

Don, the so-called death threat was to my mind very real. Most muslims, of course, would not be able to carry it out, but it just takes one - just one - and one is all that it needs. And what is all the "scads of lovely lolly" refer to? Is it the money he made from The Satanic Verses? Well, he is the author. Is it not rightly his? Do you think he wrote the book just to make money and that the death threat was some sort of publicity stunt? I have to say no on both counts. Rushdie is a serious artist and the death sentence on him was a real threat. What if the Monty Python team had been threatend by Christian fundelmentalists after making The Life of Brian? Would you have felt the same way? There was nothing hyped about Rushdie's death threat. Look how it was cheered by mobs of Muslims all over the world. It was a scary and sobering moment. The silence, and with silence comes tacit approval, from liberals and the Left staggered me. I thought I was a fellow traveller and discovered I wasn't.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM

Roy Harper - I Hate the White Man


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 11:01 AM

""What remarks should I make about The Satanic Verses? Should I stay silent when Salmon Rushdie has to go into hiding because the religious head of Iran has put a contract on his head?""

A crusty old cynic like me isn't too impressed with that so-called threat of death to Salman Rushdie for the following reason.

The Media hyped threat to his life and his apparent disappearance into a "place of safety" converted an inaccurate rant about Islam which might, at best, have sold a couple of dozen copies into an all time best seller.

The world and his wife knew where he was "hiding", and neither his publishers nor the World's journalists had any trouble finding him to deliver the scads of lovely lolly he made.

I only wish I had been so endangered, and so rich!

Don T


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Subject: Lyr Add: I HATE THE WHITE MAN (Roy Harper)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM

Acorn4, this was always one of my favourites. In fact, the entire "Flat, Baroque and Berserk" album was brilliant.

I HATE THE WHITE MAN
by Roy Harper


Far across the ocean in the land of look and see
There once was a time for you and me
Where the winds blow sweetly and the easy seas flow still
And where the barefoot dream of life can laugh and cry its fill
Where slot machine confusion and the plastic universe
Are objects of amusement in the fiction of their curse
And where the crazy white man and his tear-gas happiness
Lies dead and long since buried by his own fantastic mess

For I hate the white man and his plastic excuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned him loose...

And the reins of coloured thunder of the stallion of the dawn
Ride the coal-fire morning on the beach where all is born
Where the emperor of meaning is burning up his fort
And sits to warm his toes around a fire made up of useless thought
And when the children tempt him with the riddles of their trance
He flings the flames of solstice casting laughs into their dance
Where the crazy white man in the desert of his bones
Lies as bleached as the paradise he likes to think he owns

And I hate the white man in his evergreen excuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned him loose...

And far across the reaches of the drifting yellow sands
The living carpet wilderness forever joins its hands
With heaven's hell's attainment in a surging crest of fire
Where more than all is thrown upon the everlasting pyre
And through the countless canticles of Jason's charcoal fleece
Are sung the songs of nothing in the timeless masterpiece
And there stood in the middle - guess who? - It's the everlasting bust
Built by God's very own white man as he tries to rule the dust

And I hate the white man on his doctrinaire refuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned you all loose...

And the bowels of his city have been locked into a safe
Where the spew stains on the sidewalks are defenders of his faith
While back inside his kitchen the bowler-hatted, long-haired saint
Cleans with soap and water but it's really just white paint
While his gorgon-headed scandal sheet presents its daily bite
To give the righteous news-believers drugs to keep them white
While outside in the whitewash where the guns are always, always right
The shooting star has summoned deaths dark angel from his night


And I hate the white man and his evergreen excuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned you all loose
And the man who turned me loose...


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 09:10 AM

I've decided you are all wrong. Mr Harper included.

Cos you are all ignoring the one true religion, so are all heathens.



Sounds bad that, doesn't it? Except that is what I read into most debates around religion. Yes, Islam like all the Abrahamic faiths doesn't like the idea of people not following their flavour. Yes, it is easy to brainwash young fools (and stupid old men) into believing metaphysical answers to temporal problems, usually including destroying anybody who disagrees with you, and yes...

They are all wrong because there is no such thing as ruddy god.

But that doesn't mean people cannot get on with their lives in peace, following a tradition based on a moral code. Lyrics like that just don't help, they really don't. And coming from an otherwise respected songsmith, it's a pity he doesn't use his skill and knowledge to paint with a fine point sable brush instead of a yard brush.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 07:47 AM

the point is that his objections to the religion Muslim is not based on race it is based on religion,some of his points I agree with, it is a religion that discourages womens equality .
During the song he also criticises jehovahs witnesses, he is also factually right when he mentions the death threat to Salman Rushdie[for daring to criticise the religion], where he is wrong is when he gives the impression that all   muslims subscribe to fatwahs and that all muslims interpret the koran in the same way, they do not, however his criticisms have nothing to do with racism , but to do with certain interpretations of the koran, he is not a racist bigot, however he is misinformed when he stereo types all muslims in one way.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 04:54 AM

It's a shame a discussion on Roy Harper's lyrics has just focused on this song. It also seems incredible that he'll be 70 in June!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 04:30 AM

Bono has been getting flak for supporting the song about shooting Boers.
Boers has become a derogatory word for whites in S Africa.
It has been described as a hate song, but he likens it to Irish rebel songs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12444061


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:50 AM

Eliza, to try to explain from my POV,

Olddude, that's a very interesting viewpoint, that a religion is better followed personally rather than in a group directed by a leader. You've made me think. The Christian Church seems to be group-based, and 'led'. Islam has the Imams and prayers in community.

From the Christian side, it is taught in the bible that one should have company with other Christians and it is felt it is best not to go it alone - we need the support of others. Here is one quote from our leader (who we believe is Christ)

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

I am not aware of any requirement to belong to any particular church and at least these days many Christians (including myself) consider themselves to be non denominational, ie. although the church attended may be Roman Catholic, methodist, etc. we are not tied in that way.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:27 PM

Good one about the lake, Olddude. ;-)


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:15 PM

by the way, my take is Islam is a beautiful, loving and peaceful religion as is Christianity ... it is man who distorts it ... not God. It is only man following man who does evil things ..


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM

olddude, very true, there IS a difference between Religion and Faith. Terrorism and hating Muslims have no part in either. And Faith is something which draws us close to our God, whether in church or out among nature, in fact wherever we may be. People are so ready to put God in a box and to label Him. They also sometimes behave as if they have an exclusive personal telephone link to the Almighty. I think God is too immense to be categorised by a particular religion, sect or denomination. But perhaps we need these structures as we are small and limited in our understanding.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:59 PM

Yup, got it in one, Dan.

For me, religion is about control, caused by guilt and fear.

Faith is something you are born with, which needs no walls, no church, no mosque, no rule books, no regulations, no punishments..

It simply is.

Love your story about looking down on the Lake...far closer to God outside, than in.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM

Eliza
my dear friend, I will attend church and enjoy it when it suits me. I have a friend who is a kind and wonderful person. He is a Methodist minister. When I visited him a few years ago in San Diego he took me to his church .. I said it was beautiful. He then visited me a few years later .. wanted to see my church. I took him to the overlook where he could gaze down at the Lake, the farms, the trees. He turned to me and said "You win, You win"

That is the difference between religion and faith I think.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM

On the one hand, Penguin Egg, it is a worthy subject for a debate.

On the other hand, it's likely to draw forth all the various cranks on this forum who have a major chip on their shoulders about this specific issue...an emotional problem, in other words...and bring them together to take potshots at each other and dig themselves deeper into their emotional sinkhole. That's why I say it's marvelous troll bait. I'm not necessarily implying that you are a troll for starting the thread, though.

I'd basically been ignoring this thread for the longest time, because I figure it's usually wiser to avoid getting drawn into such threads. It chews up a lot of one's time and energy to no good purpose, and it frequently leaves a person feeling a lot worse than if they'd done something else instead. But some people enjoy it. For those that do, that's fine...that's what they want.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM

Olddude, that's a very interesting viewpoint, that a religion is better followed personally rather than in a group directed by a leader. You've made me think. The Christian Church seems to be group-based, and 'led'. Islam has the Imams and prayers in community. What then is the role of the leader? Perhaps to exhort, encourage, teach, admonish, make decisions? And can these things be done on an individual basis? I do see that extremism and terrorism can only exist if fed and motivated by the group and the militant leaders. And many a holy person (of whatever persuasion) has lived quietly in solitude and become close to their God. As you say, 'a beautiful thing'. I shall have to think some more about your viewpoint, thank you for posting it!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:39 PM

It's music, all music is designed to create some emotion. Naw I don't like the song at all don't agree with it hence don't want to hear it or discuss it .. but it is just one musicians work. Sometimes people do outlandish things just to get a rise of of people. I never been a big fan of Harper ... I freely admit I like the guitar work on "Same old Rock" or whatever that song was called, pretty cool work. Never paid much attention to the lyrics however. I support his right to his opinions even though they are not mine in anyway and the message is wrong thinking ... political songs don't do much for me in any time frame actually .. even traditional


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:29 PM

there are some things in Harpers song,   that I do agree with, although I agree it is a mistake to lump all Muslims together , just as it is wrong to stereotype all christians.
do people object to this song?

Artist: Donovan lyrics
Title: Poke At The Pope


Have you ever seen a picture of Pope Paul?
Have you ever asked yourself this question,
Would you trust this man with your soul now?
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

His eyes are sunken and his cheeks are hollow
While you dig the poor of the world they follow
He hoarding up their gold in the Vatican
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Ave Maria, Ave Maria...

Do you remember when the floods hit Italy?
How the things they treasured most were destroyed
All the paintings and the worshipped images
'Cos they lost their faith in the real God

He's goin' down and he's goin' down fast
You really didn't think the ignorance could last
All the little children are learning
And the constellation is turning.

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Mumbling by the tumbling tide
The kind of America humbly cried
Save my soul, save it soon!
The king of America fell in swoon

Oh yea, my honey, Oh yea my honey...
Have you ever seen a picture of Pope Paul?
Have you ever asked yourself this question,
Would you trust this man with your soul now?
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

His eyes are sunken and his cheeks are hollow
While you dig the poor of the world they follow
He hoarding up their gold in the Vatican
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Ave Maria, Ave Maria...

Do you remember when the floods hit Italy?
How the things they treasured most were destroyed
All the paintings and the worshipped images
'Cos they lost their faith in the real God

He's goin' down and he's goin' down fast
You really didn't think the ignorance could last
All the little children are learning
And the constellation is turning.

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Mumbling by the tumbling tide
The kind of America humbly cried
Save my soul, save it soon!
The king of America fell in swoon

Oh yea, my honey, Oh yea my honey...


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg aka 2CheersforTahir
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:00 PM

Little Hawk, I posted it to start a debate. It is as simple as that. Why do you think it is Troll-bait?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM

Any faith that is personal only is a beautiful thing. It makes us look at the world and at others as God's masterpiece of creation. Do harm to others you do harm to yourself and God. Religious organization as is, becomes political and then subject to the corruption of leaders and men who hold power. The weak follow leaders, the strong follow God. That is true in all religions. If it is not in the heart of the person to know what is right by God's law instead of listening to some leaders try to tell you or interpret for you, then you by definition, have no faith and hence will do things against the will of God .. all religions. And that includes those with no religious beliefs also. The reverence of life (all forms)is within everyone by birth ... from God .. people know right from wrong but some choose to follow leaders instead. That is the problem


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 01:58 PM

God, what a piece of classic troll-bait this thread is, not to mention the dumbass song that inspired it. ;-D Pretty funny, actually, if you look at the funny side of it (which I do).

Roy Harper has made a spectacular contribution to the fertile field of recreational outrage by writing that song, and with any luck he may yet wangle it into a fulltime career on some American "news" (ha! ha!) and current affairs show, as he is just in the right emotional ballpark for that sort of thing. Way to go, man. Work on that ulcer, sharpen those festering resentments and grievances, and enjoy every minute of it if that's what turns you on.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM

Who called you a racist bigot, Brian?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 01:00 PM

As a racist bigot, I'd best not comment ;o)


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:38 PM

Yup, I'm with you on that, 999.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:35 PM

You are open minded, Eliza.

Frankly, I found all three books to be good in some ways and terrible in others. In the hands of bad interpreters--by that read evil--they are ordnance waiting for a place to happen. imo.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:32 PM

Whether or not the Koran is supposed to be translated (and I have no idea about that) I bought a copy years ago, translated into English, from a Muslim student group while visiting Cambridge. As I don't speak or read Arabic, it's the only way I can understand what it says. I like to try and learn about the source of things before I form a judgment. I also have several books of commentaries and guides about Islam. Before this, I have to admit I was totally ignorant.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM

I was under the impression that the Koran wasn't supposed to be translated.


Acorn, if you google

koran in english, you`ll find lots of translations. I`m afraid your impression is incorrect. I had the book until about fifteen years ago. I gave it--with about a dozen different versions of the bible and a book of morman--to a public library.


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