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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

katlaughing 08 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM
artbrooks 08 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 06:22 PM
Greg F. 08 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM
josepp 08 Jan 11 - 07:06 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM
pdq 08 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM
bobad 08 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 11 - 09:16 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 10:09 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 11 - 10:44 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 11:02 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 11:21 PM
josepp 08 Jan 11 - 11:48 PM
Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM
Slag 09 Jan 11 - 04:37 AM
Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM
Slag 09 Jan 11 - 05:20 AM
Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Big Norman Voice 09 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM
Genie 09 Jan 11 - 06:10 AM
Smedley 09 Jan 11 - 06:26 AM
VirginiaTam 09 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM
akenaton 09 Jan 11 - 06:59 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM
kendall 09 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 09 Jan 11 - 09:36 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,number 6 09 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM
Bat Goddess 09 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM
pdq 09 Jan 11 - 11:06 AM
Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 11:07 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM
josepp 09 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Jan 11 - 12:21 PM
artbrooks 09 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM

Jeri, well said. I remember when Columbine happened and Mudcatters' first concerns were for the people there...were they okay...send them good thoughts, pray, etc. now it seems most just do drive by/point and stare/spew out some hit air..etc....like looking at a train wreck and putting the blame with no firsthand knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM

I also think that we should all sit back and wait a bit. There will be plenty of time to discuss the facts, when there are facts to discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM

Howard Fineman has expressed, better than I did, the point about the biggest, longest-enduring casualty of today's mass shooting:

The End Of Access (Howard Fineman, 1-8-2011)

Excerpts:
"WASHINGTON -- The shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is a watershed event in many ways, some of which we cannot yet know, but one of the clearest and simplest is this: Congress and its members are about to be permanently quarantined, physically isolated, from the people it and they represent.

Thirty years ago, there was no such thing as security on Capitol Hill or for members. Members of the public were free to roam the halls, and police presence was practically invisible ... and even the leadership rarely had any form of protection.

The Hill was the very model of the People's Place -- and in that respect it was an inspirational symbol of our democracy.

Congress began to close in on itself in 1983. [A bomb explosion in 1993, a shooting in 1998, the 9/11 attacks and an anthrax attack in 2003 each led to tighter security measures & greater restriction of access to public officials & buildings.]

...

New even more restrictive rules are now inevitable. It's even possible that the general public will be banned from the hallways of the Capitol Complex, at least at certain times and under certain circumstances.

As for personal protection, that is likely to be increased substantially. For the last year or two, some House members and senators have had unpublicized but substantial security details dispatched to their side when deemed warranted.

...

But rather than have extensive details for each member, the members are likely to change their behavior -- which means they will stay behind closed doors here in DC and in their home districts and states.

... "

This is especially likely, and especially sad, because today's small, informal "Congress On Your Corner" meeting between Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and a fairly small gathering of her constituents was a continuation of this practice which she began back in 2007.

From the press release from Gifford's office re today's gathering:

"Congress on Your Corner" allows residents of Arizona's 8th Congressional District to meet their congresswoman one-on-one and discuss with her any issue, concern or problem involving the federal government.

Giffords has hosted numerous "Congress on Your Corner" events since taking office in January 2007. As in the past, the congresswoman's staff will be available to assist constituents."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

And that's just what terrorism is: an attempt to change the political workings of a country through fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

Kat, I think what most of us are "blaming" is the culture of violence - especially when it interferes with the open practice of our democratic processes. That, and maybe the too-easy access to weapons that can wound or kill a dozen or more people in a matter of a few seconds.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:22 PM

Tea Party and Palin's comin'
They're getting what they asked for
Their rhetoric spoke of gunnin'
Ten shot at the grocery store


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Gee, guy was probably a Muslim, eh? They're the only ones would do this sort of thing. Right, Glenn, Sarah, et. al.?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM

Febrile politics of Giffords shooting Seems it's not just Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM

What progressives need to do as this act of domestic terrorism is evaluated is not not buy into any bullshit mythology that both sides need to clean up their act...

This is purely bad behavior on one side and one side only and it ain't been on the left or by Dems...

So to my progressive friends: We don't owe the right anything here except a demand that they shut down the terrorism that they, in their silence, condone...

BTW, I am severely pissed off at the Repubs right now... They allowed thugs and goons to intimidate vote counters in Florida in the 2000 "selection" of a looser and they quietly cheered on these same goons and thugs last summer during those town meetings... Terrorism is part of the Republican Party and if they keep it up they will eventually piss off enough folks on the left where the bullets will be going both ways...

The saddest part about this is that there are rednecks out there thinking this guy is some fucking folk hero!!!

The ball is firmly in the Repubs court now!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:06 PM

If you find a map with crosshairs drawn on it and a person's name and words like "3 down 17 more to go!" and "Don't retreat, reload!" and that person whose name is on that map is murdered, how can you tell me this had nothing to do with anything??

And her map was NOT taken down, I just looked at the link I gave earlier in the thread and it is still there. People, at this point, have EVERY RIGHT to assume there is a connection--would be crazy not to!

And, no, sorry but I'm not content to sit around mourning over the victims. And stop telling people that if you're not doing this you must be some kind of moral defective--fuck you.

These people who clalm to be for "the people" are turning us against each other to the point where I'm afraid the toothpaste is not going to go back in the tube. We are looking at one more clear sign that our democracy is deteriorating--that we are turning in the terrorist state that we're always pointing a finger at the Muslims about. And that's far more of a serious issue than any of the victims--sorry but that's the truth. This is far bigger than any of them.

This shooting shouldn't just make you sad, it should make you goddamn mad!!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM

And I am...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Bobert, while most of the violence in this country against public officials has been, as far as we know, done by right-wingers, not all of it has.   Squeaky Fromme and Mary Jane what's-her-name weren't right-wingers, nor was the paranoid Ted Kaczynski.    And The Weathermen, who were planting bombs back in the '60s weren't "conservatives" either.

No one side of the extremes of political views has a lock on assassinations or other politically motivated violence, much less the violence of the insane.

I agree that most of what we've heard in recent years about "watering the tree of liberty with blood" or putting political opponents "in the cross hairs" or resorting "to second-Amendment remedies" if the ballot box doesn't produce the desired outcome have come from the "right," but that doesn't mean it's basically a left-v.-right wing issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM

For what it's worth, this quote is from a political website...

"Interestingly, The Atlantic picked up on Loughner noting Mein Kampf is one of his favorite books, and that Rep. Giffords is Jewish. Also at The Atlantic, Andrew Sullivan is trying to tie Sarah Palin to this violent act, but has to admit that Loughner isn't exactly the Tea Party type. Especially after finding a twitter feed of one of Loughner's former friends, who describes him as left-wing, a political radical, anti-flag and a pot head. She also said he had met Giffords before and called her stupid. He certainly doesn't sound like a political conservative. It sounds like he's always been kind of weird, and perhaps had some kind of psychotic break. We'll find out soon enough."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM

MSNBC talks to Rep. Gabrielle Gifford about the death threats, vandalism and harassments. Aired 3/25/10.

"Sarah Palin has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they've gotta realize there are consequences to that action."

MSNBC Video


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM

But josepp is right: This horrendous event is far more than just a personal tragedy for a few people and their friends and families. It is more than just another mass murder. It is a frontal attack on our democracy and our freedom to be actively involved in it.   That is a more far-reaching reason for grief - and outrage - than is the death of or injury to 18 people by a lunatic, as sad as that is in itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM

2000... Repubs lire goons to terrorize poll worker during the Florida recount

2008... Participants yell "Hang him" regarding Obama repeatedly at Palin rallies... Repub reaction: Who cares???

2009... Repub thugs trained to disrupt town hall meeting on health care reform

2009... Don't retreat, reload

2009... "You lie!!!"

2010... Cross hairs on Palin websites

2010... "2nd amendment remedies"

2000-2010 NRA pumps Million$$$ into the Repub Party...

Sorry, folks... What we have here is a systematic assault on the Democratic Party and progressives everywhere using bib Laden terrorist tactics... The US Taliban is here and we had better face up to it... John Chickenshit Beohner ain't gonna take 'um on... He's just a washrag crybabby...

Now I'm not too sure how we are gonna turn this around but if we don't this is gonna be messier than anyone can imagine... Today is a snapshot into our future if we can't stop Redneck Nation and Redneck Nation is poised to fuck US all up... Serious buisness...

Too much tooth paste out of the tube here...

I've already fired off a letter to the Washington Post saying purdy much what I've said here... I mean, fir a bunch of aging folk singers, that's about all we can do... But we all need to do somethin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM

My shock, rage, anger, outtrage and profound sadness is surely evident in my intial remarks within the first 20 minutes of this mass assasination.

The Sheriff of Pima County Arizona Clarance Dupnik expressed the very thoguhts I have about this tradjedy by addressing the question of why this tradjecy occured.
Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik says "Arizona has become the capitol for prejudice and bigotry" Certain radio and TV personalities continue to incite fear hatred and violence that requires all people in this nation to engage in soul searching.

-------------

In the 200+ years of this country we have had a fairness doctrine for our media for a brief ten years. After Ronald Reagan abolished this doctrine we have seen certain dedicated radio and TV networks driving a unique form of broadcasting that is formulated to poison the minds of the public with mental pictures of a need for violence and murder in the political arena.

As tragid shock that this incident has cut me to the bone, it is not without an expected antipation of horrible acts by people who are immersed in that world of shock jock conservative rhetoric.


Sneator McCain condemned the acts today but said he did not know why.
Obama condemned the murders today but said he did not know why.
I know why instinctively and so does Sheriff Dupnik. So do you.

My wife argues that the country has never been without vitriolic media yet I say that the advent of Clear Channel and FOX has created a 24/7 platform that is unpredicented.

I monitor our local clear channel station AM 630 WMAL and I will not repeat the horrible ideas accusations and lies they broadcast 24 hours a day. They are not a saturday nite live format of parody. They are mean and mean what they say. They drive a form of white power that goes beyond the propganda of the brown shirts.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:16 PM

I viewed the murder suspect's web posts and found that he demanded a repeal of all of America's recent treasonous laws. The sustained threatsm assaults and vandalism aimed at Congresswoman Giffords is a well known fact.

In my opinion he is among the least informed people but has the essence of a "patriot who is called upon to water the tree of liberty with blood."

Much of the call to kill dmeocrats, Obama and progressives is done in a manner which is by way of attribution, or by an image or direct suggestion of what is honorable. This should not be viewed as making the speaker of such remarks immune from culpability when someone does what they imply.

(I hope my dyslexic affliction that is evident in my unedited writing does not detract from the core meaning and heartfelt sentiments that I share here)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:09 PM

"Special Comment" by Keith Olberman was his best to date... Maybe a little conciliatory for accpetin' any blame on the left (we didn't do the crime and don't deserve to do no time) but...

...as good, and better, than Keith has ever been...

Recommend tryin' to find it on line...

Worth it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:44 PM

At the EXACT same moment Olbermann on MSNBC was calling for the repudiation of Palin, Beck, and all networks and individuals who advocate murderous political rhetoric, FOX news had an analyst from the FBI stating that the alleged killer was a lone delusional paranoid acting on his own.


As much as I hope we all want this violence to pull back from the edge, it is likely that some will feel emboldened and proud of today's events. The country like the microcosm of this mudcat forum will have those who will defend the state of right wing rhetoric today and on the other side there are people who want the blood threats to stop. When on a razor's edge, people and ideas can get cut down the middle. TOday's events will further a divide, no matter how you slice it.

Today the Pima county Tea Party spokesperson denounced the vilence but refused to make any change to their rhetoric, methods or symbology that they have employed since the health care town hall meetings, which included the display of guns. Gabby Giffords
opponent in the latest election held an event in which you were allowed to fire a real M-16 in celebration to get rid of Gabby Giffords.

We may not want to return to the days of duels or near fatal canings in Congress, or the violence of John Brown or the radical left of the 60's, BUT the current right wing violence is a titanic which will be slow to turn or stop because of all the inertia behind this ill fated ship.

Eventually the right wing violence will ebb but remain a historic monument of a rightious threat to all critics.

This week Glen Beck taught that the first slave owner in America was a black man and that the 3/5's compromise was to enable a slow abolition of slavery. All his lessons are designed to make white people feel proud and unburdoned from any guilt from a history that has been warped by liberals to disrespect the white race. THis week he had a picture of Obama with writing above that said "Ceasar dead in 100 AD" No it may not make any sense, but the intent is as clear as an automatic pistol fired into a political crowd of 34 people today, in which a 9 year old girl, a judge, friends and a Congressperson were shot. The intent is hate, violence and death.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:02 PM

Shout it from the rooftops:

SO, GOP, ARE YOU READY TO TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC YET?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:21 PM

The sad thing, mouse, is that I fear that they really don't give a rat's ass... Yeah, they'll do the perfunctory "blah,blah,blah" but they really couldn't care less...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:48 PM

Bobert's right. This will have no effect on the violent rhetoric and tactics that these people are engaging that caused this incident.

For them to say they aren't contributing to any nut's murder fantasy is disingenuous. They are doing the same thing the anti-abortion nuts do by posting a doctor's name, address, workplace and where his kids go to school and then tell the press, "Well, we aren't trying to scare or intimidate anyone." I have had a belly full of that goddamn crap! Goddamn insult to my intelligence.

And I wish certain people here could get it through their heads that politics has nothing to do with it. It's this behavior of targeting people, making vague threats against them and then crying crocodile tears when violence breaks out is what I am condemning. I don't give a damn what the politics are. I'm not blaming Palin because she is a politician, I am blaming her because I feel her tactics and rhetoric are what caused this.

But for the right to tone down this rhetoric is, in their minds, a show of weakness and an admission of culpability. They will decry calls to tone it down as an attack on their constitutional right to free speech and will become even more vitriolic and divisive as ever. These are reactionaries--always remember that. They have little in the way of shame, humility or introspection. They react automatically in the worst possible way to anyone's criticism. The worse the incident, the worse they will react.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM

""The intent is hate, violence and death.""

I realize one can only speculate, at this point. But, could the intent also have been to silence someone who has a different vision?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:37 AM

Well, some of you seem to really be on top of it. Without knowing much beyond the newscorps' coverage it's safe to assume that this was a rightwinger 'cause we all know that only rightwingers are nut jobs. Without hearing a word from Beck or O'Reilly we already know that they support the nut job but they will pretned to be against him. The gun did the actual crime as it forced its way into the hand of the nut job and made him pull the trigger. Yup, no prejudice or bias here. With such unbiased and clear thinking as demonstrated in this thread how could anyone stumble over the truth as do those nut job conservatives, murders at the heart, everyone. And we all know that Sarah Palin was somehow manipulating this young man and others like him. She must be at the core of the whole episode. We ought to take them all out, line 'em up against a wall and let 'em have it the way they want to do us. We can start with GW as was discussed in the thread about executing him. We don't need no stinking trials. I'm sure Congrsswoman Giffords will agree with the sentiment expressed in this thread.

Now in a completely different vein (for some who might be slow on the uptake), my prayers and thoughts are and will continue to be with the families affected by this horrendous tragedy. I pray for the Congresswoman's speedy and full recovery and I asked that those who lost loved ones find that peace that passes all understanding and comfort in their terrible losses.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM

""Clarence Dupnik, sheriff of Pima county, said Miss Giffords was the target of a gunman whom he described as mentally "unstable" but not "insane".

The sheriff pointed to the vitriolic political rhetoric that has consumed the country as he denounced the shooting that claimed several of his friends as victims, including U.S. District Judge John Roll. The judge attended Mass on Saturday morning like he does every day before stopping by to say hello to his good friend Giffords.

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," the sheriff said. "And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry." ""




"" Her father, Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his daughter had any enemies. "Yeah," he told The New York Post. "The whole Tea Party."

In an interview last year with the MSNBC, Miss Giffords referred to Mrs Palin's target map a map of electoral targets

"When people do that, they've got to realize that there's consequences to that action," she said. ""

Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8248728/Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-Police-searching-for-


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:20 AM

Ok, Ed T, Sheriff Dupnik, was obviously emotionally impacted by the event and that is wholly understandable. He was trying to communicate as much as he could without compromising the ongoing investigation. He expressed a personal opinion, which I will grant is probably a considered opinion but he is not an expert in mental health.

As for vitriol, neither side has a patent on it. Much vitriol is expressed here at the 'cat from time to time but it is not recognized or owned by those various members as it is "their" vitriol and therefore, somehow, exempt from criticism.

I cannot help but relate to the elder Mr. Giffords as a fellow human being and I am sure that is exactly how he felt. I also understand that it is a sentiment and not a statement of fact that "the whole Tea Party" was his daughter's enemy. Factually that is incorrect on many levels, would you not agree?

As for Palin's use of a crosshair on the "aims" and goals for the causes she champions, she is not the first (although she may be the last) who has used such a symbol, from either party. Most rational people recognized that figures of speech and common analogies such as "taking aim" or "on target" or "I've got him in my sites" etc. are not meant to be inflamatory nor are such symbols as bullseyes and crosshairs (Target stores for instance). They are part of the culture and language and sane people get that, though they may be opposed to such. How about, let's all wait until we have a trial of the facts and learn what this young man had in mind before we launch into inflamatory vitriol of our own.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM

""How about, let's all wait until we have a trial of the facts and learn what this young man had in mind before we launch into inflamatory vitriol of our own.""

Sounds good with me, from both sides of the issue. I am merely posting related information (what little exists at this point), and people are free to consider and discuss it or not.

And, note that I have not launched into "inflamatory vitriol" on this unfortunate circumstance, nor the broader issues raised by some.

IMO, posting news items. and related comments, and observations from these sources, and people closer to the situation than folks here contributes to just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM

Yeah well that's what happens when you think guns are clever.
The right to bear arms ! What a crock of shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:10 AM

Slag, yes, it's true that people across the political spectrum, and usually without intending to incite violence, use metaphors such as "taking aim at" an opponent or "annihilating" them or "taking them down" - even "burying" or "destroying" them. Such metaphors are common both in sports and in politics.

But wasn't it Tea Party darling Sharron Angle who recently advised that if "we" didn't achieve our aims via the ballot, "we" should consider "second-Amendment remedies?"   And the charts that Palin has posted on her website, I think, go beyond the common usage of "destroy your opponent" metaphor.    There ARE websites that pretty much do call for the assassination of abortion providers, Muslim leaders, gays, and various other groups or individuals, and there are people who cheer when such people are actually gunned down.   No, it's not always people on a particular 'end' of the political spectrum, but today, anyway, the loud advocacy of gun ownership and usage and the opposition to any sort of regulation of such does come pretty much from the "conservatives" or libertarians.   And the vast majority of rhetoric I read or hear today that paints the opposition as some sort of demons or vermin also seems to be coming from the "right."   

Anyway, I think it's important to realize that if/when you announce that you think "somebody should take out" or "get rid of" some politician via "revolution" or "second Amendment remedies," you're baiting some nut to take that literally.

Oh, and I don't consider condemnation of violent rhetoric to be "launch[ing] into inflammatory vitriol," either.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Smedley
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:26 AM

Well said, Genie.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM

9 year old Christina Taylor Green (killed) had been invited by her neighbour to attend the event, because she had just been elected to her student council. Christina was born on 9/11 and was included in the book Faces of Hope, babies born on 9/11.

My heart is breaking for her family and friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:59 AM

The US government's "drone warfare" kills thousands of innocents.
The US has a history of political assasination like no other country on earth, not just of its own politicians, but covert assasination attempts on the leaders of other nations and political systems....all this before the "Tea Party" was even thought of.

This seems like the action of a deranged young man, the likes of which are to be found in any society.
Considering the nature of US politics and the lack of political understanding in supporters of Both US political Parties, It is a miracle that events like this are more commonplace.

That being said, the folks directly affected by this tragedy deserve all our sympathy and good wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM

Forgive me if I state the obvious, but the US emphasis on the use of firearms these days comes almost entirely from the lunatic right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM

What Genie said, Slag...

There is a world of difference between the "argumments" that the left makes and the "tactics" of the right...

The left owes no one an apology... We may make impassioned "arguments" for policies we believe in but we haven't been the one's using *terrorism* as a political tactic...

This is alot like an unarmed Rodney King sayin' "Can't we all just get along" while being brutally beaten by armed men...

No sir... If you think that the left is the problem here then I'd suggest reality therapy...

(Oh, Boberdz... That sounds like, ahhhh, mean words...)

Oh really???

Want some mean words, check out the calls to violence that is comin' outta the FOX Terrorism Network...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM

There have been many incidents like this in countries that ban hand guns. The poor will always be with us, and so will the whackos.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM

Re. gun laws - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#100


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

Yeah, Capt'n, but never have so many whackos had so much cover from a major political party...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:36 AM

Perhaps America just isn't ready for a black president.

You're not going to get a secular, industry friendly leader who cares about human rights elected in Iran or Iraq.

Given the composition of your country's population, perhaps its just a step too far for America - a black president who wants to sort out your healthcare system.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM

Well, Alan, one thing is fir sure... There are way too many Americans who are not ready for a black president... Or a Jewish president... Or a gay president... Or a woman president... Or anyone who is left handed president... Or people who wear flannel shirts president...

I mean, what we have is a sub-species of Epsilons who have no ability to think critically, are vastly uneducated and seem to think that they have all the answers are ready to impose their answers on everyone else regardless of the means...

I, for one, am not ready to turn our *govern*ment over to these people just because they have guns... I mean, I have guns, too, but I also have critical thinking skills and an education...

I mean, let's get real... America has it's own Taliban...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM

The very subject of this thread and from reading through these posts disturbs me ... and convinces more that the U.S. is a nation of very frightened, extremely paranoid people ... a nation that has lost all reason, a polarized nation where right and wrong is defined by republican, or democrat, right or left and humanity is pretty well all but forgotten.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

This past Tuesday in the New Hampshire House, Republicans lifted the ban on firearms in Representatives Hall and surrounding areas. Firearms have been banned in the chamber since 1971. And they repealed a year old ban on weapons in the State House area.

Guns Welcomed Back

Back in the late '60s when I regularly came home from work (in downtown Milwaukee to a west 'burb) very late via two city buses with a layover on a deserted street corner in the middle, I carried a .25 Browning because, if I was going to be headlines, it wasn't going to be because I was found in a field someplace. I haven't carried one since.

I cannot think of a reason why state legislators need to carry weapons in the State House. I don't want to see all gun ownership illegal, but I certainly don't want everyone to be armed, either, and I don't want weapons in public places.

Ach!

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM

Bullshit, bILL...

This bad behavior is 99.9% on the right side of the divide...

That is reality!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:06 AM

Bad behavior? Here is what it's like on the border with Mexico, which is not that far from Tucson...


7:15am 10/14/09 -- Decapitated Woman Marks Disturbing Turn in Juarez Violence: As of last week, 100 girls and women had been killed this year in border city.

"Violence against women in the Mexican border city of Juarez is unfortunately nothing new, but the discovery of a decapitated woman in a public place last Sunday marks a disturbing new development in the violence-ravaged city, two experts told the El Paso Times.

'This is the first time a woman has been decapitated and her body displayed in this manner," Julia Monarrez Fragoso, a professor at the Colegio de la Frontera in Juarez who has spent 15 years researching the murder of women in that city, told the Times. 'It is frightening ... the civil society cannot and should not become accustomed to this kind of violence.'

The woman whose body was discovered Sunday next to a plastic bag containing her severed head still hadn't been identified late Tuesday, and authorities were waiting for relatives to show up at the morgue to identify the body, the Times said.

Monarrez said that as of last week, 100 girls and women had been killed in Juarez since the beginning of the year, a record for the violence-wracked border city, and more than 600 women's deaths have been reported since 1993, the paper reported.

'Decapitations of women are rare,' Sergio Gonzalez Rodriguez, an editor of the Reforma newspaper in Mexico City who has studied the phenomenon of decapitation in Mexico's ongoing drug cartel wars, told the Times.

'Beheadings are associated with the Zetas, enforcers for the Gulf drug cartel, who aligned themselves with the (Carrillo Fuentes) drug cartel in Jaurez. Officials have found evidence that some Zetas carry out human sacrifices and beheadings in honor of the 'santa muerte,' Gonzalez told the paper.

The woman who was found Sunday had a tattoo of 'santa muerte' (holy death) on her lower back, as well as a tattoo of the name 'Claudia', the Times said.

The santa muerte cult mixes the worship of ancient Mexican pagan deities, variations of santeria and the reported visions of a witch doctor in Orizaba in the state of Vera Cruz and appears to glorify criminal behavior, according to the Times.

'These horrifying crimes represent a disturbing degree of human degradation that has spread throughout Juarez and other parts of Mexico, and which contradict the authorities' claims that everything is under control,' Gonzalez told the Times."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:07 AM

I suspect many government representatives (especially left leaning)are reconsidering unsecured discussions with citizens in the community, and revamping their security provisions.
Hopefully, this does not signal an end to local community discussions of this type...but, maybe they will become a rarer thing someday?

It only takes one nut, with an axe to grind. Nuts can easily be encouraged or provokes. I suspect they can always find a victim, no matter what the age.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

So, pdq, are you blaming Democrats or progressives for that??? If so, you are delusional...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM

Yeah, it's the public's favorite gripe: "You never see these politicians out here in the community until election time then they're shaking everybody's hand like he's their best friend."

Now you can't launch that accusation. They are now justified not to come out and meet you.

But my blaming Palin has nothing to do with politics. I'm not particularly left-leaning. I have to call it the way I see it. If you publicly target people exhortng the public to "reload" and "take em out" you are engaging in a dangerous tactic. I would call it irresponsible but only if you never expected anything to happen. If you were trying to get something to happen and something does then you weren't irresponsible but you are guilty of murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM

That is the difference here, josz, that the right pretends not to get... It's one thing to argue politics... That is part of one's civic responsibility... It's quite another to use language that promotes violence... Sarah Palin is very much responsible for what happened yesterday... The entire Republican Party which until this happened was silent on threats of violence is responsible... They cannot hide from that...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:21 PM

O don't think it's bullshit Bobert.

"I shouted out
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

It is over 300 miles from Tucson to Juarez.


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