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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM
josepp 08 Jan 11 - 11:48 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 11:21 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 11:02 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 11 - 10:44 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 10:09 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 11 - 09:16 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM
bobad 08 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM
pdq 08 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM
josepp 08 Jan 11 - 07:06 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM
Greg F. 08 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 06:22 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM
artbrooks 08 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM
katlaughing 08 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 05:51 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 05:48 PM
Bill D 08 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,number 6 08 Jan 11 - 05:39 PM
DougR 08 Jan 11 - 05:30 PM
mousethief 08 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM
bobad 08 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM
EBarnacle 08 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM
josepp 08 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 08 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM
josepp 08 Jan 11 - 04:56 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM
SINSULL 08 Jan 11 - 04:52 PM
alanabit 08 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM
Rapparee 08 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM
bobad 08 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM
Jeri 08 Jan 11 - 04:31 PM
pdq 08 Jan 11 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,DonMeixner 08 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 04:23 PM
Jeri 08 Jan 11 - 04:13 PM
Genie 08 Jan 11 - 04:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Jan 11 - 04:07 PM
josepp 08 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 08 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM

""The intent is hate, violence and death.""

I realize one can only speculate, at this point. But, could the intent also have been to silence someone who has a different vision?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:48 PM

Bobert's right. This will have no effect on the violent rhetoric and tactics that these people are engaging that caused this incident.

For them to say they aren't contributing to any nut's murder fantasy is disingenuous. They are doing the same thing the anti-abortion nuts do by posting a doctor's name, address, workplace and where his kids go to school and then tell the press, "Well, we aren't trying to scare or intimidate anyone." I have had a belly full of that goddamn crap! Goddamn insult to my intelligence.

And I wish certain people here could get it through their heads that politics has nothing to do with it. It's this behavior of targeting people, making vague threats against them and then crying crocodile tears when violence breaks out is what I am condemning. I don't give a damn what the politics are. I'm not blaming Palin because she is a politician, I am blaming her because I feel her tactics and rhetoric are what caused this.

But for the right to tone down this rhetoric is, in their minds, a show of weakness and an admission of culpability. They will decry calls to tone it down as an attack on their constitutional right to free speech and will become even more vitriolic and divisive as ever. These are reactionaries--always remember that. They have little in the way of shame, humility or introspection. They react automatically in the worst possible way to anyone's criticism. The worse the incident, the worse they will react.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:21 PM

The sad thing, mouse, is that I fear that they really don't give a rat's ass... Yeah, they'll do the perfunctory "blah,blah,blah" but they really couldn't care less...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:02 PM

Shout it from the rooftops:

SO, GOP, ARE YOU READY TO TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC YET?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:44 PM

At the EXACT same moment Olbermann on MSNBC was calling for the repudiation of Palin, Beck, and all networks and individuals who advocate murderous political rhetoric, FOX news had an analyst from the FBI stating that the alleged killer was a lone delusional paranoid acting on his own.


As much as I hope we all want this violence to pull back from the edge, it is likely that some will feel emboldened and proud of today's events. The country like the microcosm of this mudcat forum will have those who will defend the state of right wing rhetoric today and on the other side there are people who want the blood threats to stop. When on a razor's edge, people and ideas can get cut down the middle. TOday's events will further a divide, no matter how you slice it.

Today the Pima county Tea Party spokesperson denounced the vilence but refused to make any change to their rhetoric, methods or symbology that they have employed since the health care town hall meetings, which included the display of guns. Gabby Giffords
opponent in the latest election held an event in which you were allowed to fire a real M-16 in celebration to get rid of Gabby Giffords.

We may not want to return to the days of duels or near fatal canings in Congress, or the violence of John Brown or the radical left of the 60's, BUT the current right wing violence is a titanic which will be slow to turn or stop because of all the inertia behind this ill fated ship.

Eventually the right wing violence will ebb but remain a historic monument of a rightious threat to all critics.

This week Glen Beck taught that the first slave owner in America was a black man and that the 3/5's compromise was to enable a slow abolition of slavery. All his lessons are designed to make white people feel proud and unburdoned from any guilt from a history that has been warped by liberals to disrespect the white race. THis week he had a picture of Obama with writing above that said "Ceasar dead in 100 AD" No it may not make any sense, but the intent is as clear as an automatic pistol fired into a political crowd of 34 people today, in which a 9 year old girl, a judge, friends and a Congressperson were shot. The intent is hate, violence and death.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:09 PM

"Special Comment" by Keith Olberman was his best to date... Maybe a little conciliatory for accpetin' any blame on the left (we didn't do the crime and don't deserve to do no time) but...

...as good, and better, than Keith has ever been...

Recommend tryin' to find it on line...

Worth it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:16 PM

I viewed the murder suspect's web posts and found that he demanded a repeal of all of America's recent treasonous laws. The sustained threatsm assaults and vandalism aimed at Congresswoman Giffords is a well known fact.

In my opinion he is among the least informed people but has the essence of a "patriot who is called upon to water the tree of liberty with blood."

Much of the call to kill dmeocrats, Obama and progressives is done in a manner which is by way of attribution, or by an image or direct suggestion of what is honorable. This should not be viewed as making the speaker of such remarks immune from culpability when someone does what they imply.

(I hope my dyslexic affliction that is evident in my unedited writing does not detract from the core meaning and heartfelt sentiments that I share here)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM

My shock, rage, anger, outtrage and profound sadness is surely evident in my intial remarks within the first 20 minutes of this mass assasination.

The Sheriff of Pima County Arizona Clarance Dupnik expressed the very thoguhts I have about this tradjedy by addressing the question of why this tradjecy occured.
Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik says "Arizona has become the capitol for prejudice and bigotry" Certain radio and TV personalities continue to incite fear hatred and violence that requires all people in this nation to engage in soul searching.

-------------

In the 200+ years of this country we have had a fairness doctrine for our media for a brief ten years. After Ronald Reagan abolished this doctrine we have seen certain dedicated radio and TV networks driving a unique form of broadcasting that is formulated to poison the minds of the public with mental pictures of a need for violence and murder in the political arena.

As tragid shock that this incident has cut me to the bone, it is not without an expected antipation of horrible acts by people who are immersed in that world of shock jock conservative rhetoric.


Sneator McCain condemned the acts today but said he did not know why.
Obama condemned the murders today but said he did not know why.
I know why instinctively and so does Sheriff Dupnik. So do you.

My wife argues that the country has never been without vitriolic media yet I say that the advent of Clear Channel and FOX has created a 24/7 platform that is unpredicented.

I monitor our local clear channel station AM 630 WMAL and I will not repeat the horrible ideas accusations and lies they broadcast 24 hours a day. They are not a saturday nite live format of parody. They are mean and mean what they say. They drive a form of white power that goes beyond the propganda of the brown shirts.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM

2000... Repubs lire goons to terrorize poll worker during the Florida recount

2008... Participants yell "Hang him" regarding Obama repeatedly at Palin rallies... Repub reaction: Who cares???

2009... Repub thugs trained to disrupt town hall meeting on health care reform

2009... Don't retreat, reload

2009... "You lie!!!"

2010... Cross hairs on Palin websites

2010... "2nd amendment remedies"

2000-2010 NRA pumps Million$$$ into the Repub Party...

Sorry, folks... What we have here is a systematic assault on the Democratic Party and progressives everywhere using bib Laden terrorist tactics... The US Taliban is here and we had better face up to it... John Chickenshit Beohner ain't gonna take 'um on... He's just a washrag crybabby...

Now I'm not too sure how we are gonna turn this around but if we don't this is gonna be messier than anyone can imagine... Today is a snapshot into our future if we can't stop Redneck Nation and Redneck Nation is poised to fuck US all up... Serious buisness...

Too much tooth paste out of the tube here...

I've already fired off a letter to the Washington Post saying purdy much what I've said here... I mean, fir a bunch of aging folk singers, that's about all we can do... But we all need to do somethin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM

But josepp is right: This horrendous event is far more than just a personal tragedy for a few people and their friends and families. It is more than just another mass murder. It is a frontal attack on our democracy and our freedom to be actively involved in it.   That is a more far-reaching reason for grief - and outrage - than is the death of or injury to 18 people by a lunatic, as sad as that is in itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM

MSNBC talks to Rep. Gabrielle Gifford about the death threats, vandalism and harassments. Aired 3/25/10.

"Sarah Palin has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they've gotta realize there are consequences to that action."

MSNBC Video


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM

For what it's worth, this quote is from a political website...

"Interestingly, The Atlantic picked up on Loughner noting Mein Kampf is one of his favorite books, and that Rep. Giffords is Jewish. Also at The Atlantic, Andrew Sullivan is trying to tie Sarah Palin to this violent act, but has to admit that Loughner isn't exactly the Tea Party type. Especially after finding a twitter feed of one of Loughner's former friends, who describes him as left-wing, a political radical, anti-flag and a pot head. She also said he had met Giffords before and called her stupid. He certainly doesn't sound like a political conservative. It sounds like he's always been kind of weird, and perhaps had some kind of psychotic break. We'll find out soon enough."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Bobert, while most of the violence in this country against public officials has been, as far as we know, done by right-wingers, not all of it has.   Squeaky Fromme and Mary Jane what's-her-name weren't right-wingers, nor was the paranoid Ted Kaczynski.    And The Weathermen, who were planting bombs back in the '60s weren't "conservatives" either.

No one side of the extremes of political views has a lock on assassinations or other politically motivated violence, much less the violence of the insane.

I agree that most of what we've heard in recent years about "watering the tree of liberty with blood" or putting political opponents "in the cross hairs" or resorting "to second-Amendment remedies" if the ballot box doesn't produce the desired outcome have come from the "right," but that doesn't mean it's basically a left-v.-right wing issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM

And I am...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:06 PM

If you find a map with crosshairs drawn on it and a person's name and words like "3 down 17 more to go!" and "Don't retreat, reload!" and that person whose name is on that map is murdered, how can you tell me this had nothing to do with anything??

And her map was NOT taken down, I just looked at the link I gave earlier in the thread and it is still there. People, at this point, have EVERY RIGHT to assume there is a connection--would be crazy not to!

And, no, sorry but I'm not content to sit around mourning over the victims. And stop telling people that if you're not doing this you must be some kind of moral defective--fuck you.

These people who clalm to be for "the people" are turning us against each other to the point where I'm afraid the toothpaste is not going to go back in the tube. We are looking at one more clear sign that our democracy is deteriorating--that we are turning in the terrorist state that we're always pointing a finger at the Muslims about. And that's far more of a serious issue than any of the victims--sorry but that's the truth. This is far bigger than any of them.

This shooting shouldn't just make you sad, it should make you goddamn mad!!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM

What progressives need to do as this act of domestic terrorism is evaluated is not not buy into any bullshit mythology that both sides need to clean up their act...

This is purely bad behavior on one side and one side only and it ain't been on the left or by Dems...

So to my progressive friends: We don't owe the right anything here except a demand that they shut down the terrorism that they, in their silence, condone...

BTW, I am severely pissed off at the Repubs right now... They allowed thugs and goons to intimidate vote counters in Florida in the 2000 "selection" of a looser and they quietly cheered on these same goons and thugs last summer during those town meetings... Terrorism is part of the Republican Party and if they keep it up they will eventually piss off enough folks on the left where the bullets will be going both ways...

The saddest part about this is that there are rednecks out there thinking this guy is some fucking folk hero!!!

The ball is firmly in the Repubs court now!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM

Febrile politics of Giffords shooting Seems it's not just Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Gee, guy was probably a Muslim, eh? They're the only ones would do this sort of thing. Right, Glenn, Sarah, et. al.?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:22 PM

Tea Party and Palin's comin'
They're getting what they asked for
Their rhetoric spoke of gunnin'
Ten shot at the grocery store


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

Kat, I think what most of us are "blaming" is the culture of violence - especially when it interferes with the open practice of our democratic processes. That, and maybe the too-easy access to weapons that can wound or kill a dozen or more people in a matter of a few seconds.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

And that's just what terrorism is: an attempt to change the political workings of a country through fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM

Howard Fineman has expressed, better than I did, the point about the biggest, longest-enduring casualty of today's mass shooting:

The End Of Access (Howard Fineman, 1-8-2011)

Excerpts:
"WASHINGTON -- The shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is a watershed event in many ways, some of which we cannot yet know, but one of the clearest and simplest is this: Congress and its members are about to be permanently quarantined, physically isolated, from the people it and they represent.

Thirty years ago, there was no such thing as security on Capitol Hill or for members. Members of the public were free to roam the halls, and police presence was practically invisible ... and even the leadership rarely had any form of protection.

The Hill was the very model of the People's Place -- and in that respect it was an inspirational symbol of our democracy.

Congress began to close in on itself in 1983. [A bomb explosion in 1993, a shooting in 1998, the 9/11 attacks and an anthrax attack in 2003 each led to tighter security measures & greater restriction of access to public officials & buildings.]

...

New even more restrictive rules are now inevitable. It's even possible that the general public will be banned from the hallways of the Capitol Complex, at least at certain times and under certain circumstances.

As for personal protection, that is likely to be increased substantially. For the last year or two, some House members and senators have had unpublicized but substantial security details dispatched to their side when deemed warranted.

...

But rather than have extensive details for each member, the members are likely to change their behavior -- which means they will stay behind closed doors here in DC and in their home districts and states.

... "

This is especially likely, and especially sad, because today's small, informal "Congress On Your Corner" meeting between Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and a fairly small gathering of her constituents was a continuation of this practice which she began back in 2007.

From the press release from Gifford's office re today's gathering:

"Congress on Your Corner" allows residents of Arizona's 8th Congressional District to meet their congresswoman one-on-one and discuss with her any issue, concern or problem involving the federal government.

Giffords has hosted numerous "Congress on Your Corner" events since taking office in January 2007. As in the past, the congresswoman's staff will be available to assist constituents."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM

I also think that we should all sit back and wait a bit. There will be plenty of time to discuss the facts, when there are facts to discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM

Jeri, well said. I remember when Columbine happened and Mudcatters' first concerns were for the people there...were they okay...send them good thoughts, pray, etc. now it seems most just do drive by/point and stare/spew out some hit air..etc....like looking at a train wreck and putting the blame with no firsthand knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:51 PM

Here is a statement from Steny Hoyer, House Minority Whip:

"My prayers are with Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, her family, her staff, and all the victims of today's shooting in Tucson, Arizona. Congresswoman Giffords is a devoted and insightful public servant, and a passionate advocate for her constituents—but more than that, she is my dear friend. To all those who are privileged to know Gabby Giffords, who know her spirit and graciousness in public life, today's cowardly attack is devastating.

But it is equally devastating to every American—to everyone who cares about our democracy. Our form of government, like all human things, is imperfect and flawed; but one of its greatest virtues is its power to resolve questions of the greatest import without violence. An attack on a member of that government—of whatever party or whatever views—is an attack on that principle, in which every American has a stake."

The second half is very important.

And, to help set the record straight about the casualties, here is Attorney General Eric Holder's statement:

"Today's tragedy in Arizona was a senseless act of violence that has already resulted in devastating loss, including the death of Chief United States District Court Judge John Roll and four other individuals and the wounding of Representative Gabrielle Giffords and a number of others. All of those who were killed or injured and their families are in our thoughts and prayers.

"As the President said, FBI Director Mueller is traveling to Arizona to help coordinate the investigation. The FBI is working jointly with local law enforcement to investigate today's events, and I have directed Department prosecutors and law enforcement officials to use every resource necessary to investigate this tragedy. I want to assure the people of Arizona and every American that we will hold accountable anyone responsible for these heinous acts."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:48 PM

number 6, the left/right politicisation of violent crime didn't start in Tucson. We're just now seeing what the Tea Party has been saying it wanted all along. Watering the tree of liberty with blood. Finding a 2nd Amendment solution. If ballots don't work, turn to bullets. What we're doing here is not politicizing. We're seeing what comes of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

......sadness..... in many ways.... I hope the injured recover.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

josepp, You've stated the points very well.

DougR, forget the "left"/"right" labels. Loughner's bizarre convoluted "logic" ramblings DO cry out against "the government" and seem to be calling for violent resistance to such.

True, some mass murderers do seem to choose their targets 'at random', but it doesn't sound like that's what happened here (regardless of whether he leans "left" or "right" or has ever paid attention to Palin, Beck, etc.).

The rhetoric of calling for fighting political battles and "taking out" opponents or officials via guns too often, understandably, disinhibits the nut cases who otherwise might express their frustrations in less lethal ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:39 PM

I can't believe it ... all this political right wing, left wing bull shit argument bantering when 18 human beings have been tragically shot, 6 of them fatally, 1 of them a 9 year old child.

Shame of it all ....

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:30 PM

There is no evidence that the shooter was either a right-wing extremist, or a left-wing extremist. From what I can gather, so far, he is simply a nut.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

Sarah Palin made it political when she released a map of the US with gun site graphics and the names of politicians that included Gifford's. You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind. In my mind she's accessory to murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

Well, Ms. Palin has pulled the crosshairs graphic from her website, so I guess she gets the connection.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM

First step, let's hope she survives in good enough condition to resume her seat and her life.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM

What bothers me and I can't let it go is that Palin's words were deliberately chosen--"reload". You hear these people saying things as "take aim" or "Let them have it" without any specific appeal to violence but it seems to me that they are, in their own way, recruiting a nut to do what they know sane, reasonable people are not going to do. It's a beauty for them because by doing this, they don't have to accept responsibility. No real connection can be found.

"Hey, I never said to kill someone. This guy was a nut acting on his own! He didn't even have any political leanings!! You can't pin this on me!"

And it's true--we can't. And they know it and that is why they do it. The rhetoric is unmistakable. People like Palin and these other nutjobs are trying to push someone to kill their opponents. If it works--great. If it doesn't--no harm, no foul. And in the end, they are untouchable.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

Jeri, I appreciate your concerns. However, some of us have expressed concern for Ms Gifford and others. In fairness, there has only been blame assigned (to Beck, Boehner, Palin) and to Mr.Laugner, where it properly belongs. Nobody has defended any parties to this act, either directly or indirectly, although, I and a few others have chastised those whose whose prejudices place blame where it ain't.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:56 PM

The shooter's politics don't have to figure in. Somebody who is unbalanced can be induced to kill someone else regardless of the shooter's or the victim's politics. That doesn't let the instigators off the hook. This woman was on rightwing hitlists for some time and it seems unlikely that didn't play a role in pushing this guy to do what he did whether he was politically sympathetic to them or not. That's one resaon you have to be careful what you say in public because someone could take you up on it for ANY reason at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM

I hate for an incident like this to fan the flames of political rivalry.   On the contrary, I would hope that it would have a sobering effect on hate-filled, violent rhetoric.

Both Gabrielle Gifford and Federal Judge John Roll (who, according to official sources' very recent reports, was fatally shot) had not only received death threats for some of their political policies or decisions (par for the course for judges and politicians), but had been targeted by very public calls for gun violence against them. And it's unlikely that this group assembled in front of a strip mall in Arizona just happened to be chosen as the target of a would-be mass murderer.

This is the most distressing trend in political 'warfare' -- when campaigning, reporting, news analysis, town hall meetings, and judicial remedies are tossed aside in favor of violence.

And what died in this attack, beyond the direct human victims, was another piece of our ability to engage in open, free discussion and debate with our political candidates and representatives. The democratic process of "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" sustained yet another grievous wound.

Will our representatives in legislatures and state & local executive offices now fear to hold town hall gatherings unless we're all subjected to TSA-airport-style screening processes? Will they fear to meet their constituents face to face at all?

I know this kind of violence isn't new, but it's very sad to know that it's so alive and well.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:52 PM

Jeri and Don,
I heard you.
This is a shocking tragedy. A child is dead. A mother and elected official has been shot. What a sad and disgraceful event. The family of the young man who shot the gun have a nightmare ahead of them.
I'll be back when the facts are sorted out and leave the rest of you to carry on your interminable conflict.
Mary


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Subject: RE: Ariz. Dem. Gabrielle Giffords shot
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM

A terrible piece of news. I think it will take time to get clear information. One account told of two fatalities and another of six. It appears that Gabrielle Giffords has a head injury too, which is never good news. Like everyone else I will be waiting and hoping for the least tragic outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

Giffords WAS a Republican and now is considered by herself and others as a "blue dog Democrat."

My immediate feelings about the shooter is expressed numerically: 3-7-77. But I'll wait and see before saying more.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

The 22-year-old man accused of the attempted assassination of Gabrielle Giffords has been named as Jared Laughner (or Loughner). Nothing much is known about him although a spooky youtube video has been unearthed attributed to Jared Loughner. The 2:34 mark features a little bit about terrorism. No political affiliation is represented in the video.

VIDEO


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:31 PM

Genie, yep. My complaint is that something this horrible happened, and folks are blaming political parties, or defending them, in an entirely predictable way. People who think aren't so predictable and people who feel don't so easily dismiss the tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:28 PM

For what it's worth, this quote is from an Israeli news site...

"Giffords was elected to Congress in the Democratic sweep in 2006. The first Jewish woman elected to Congress from the state, she made her Jewish identity part of her campaign.

'If you want something done, your best bet is to ask a Jewish woman to do it,' said Giffords, a former state senator, said at the time. 'Jewish women — by our tradition and by the way we were raised — have an ability to cut through all the reasons why something should, shouldn't or can't be done and pull people together to be successful.'

Giffords fought a hard election this year, against the national anti-incumbent, anti-Democratic mood. She tacked to the right of her party on immigration, saying border security was of primary consideration. The election was called in her favor weeks after the vote."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM

I'll come back in a day or two and read this thread. Already I have read somethings that I know we wouldn't have said upon reflection. A horrible crime has been committed by a criminal who apparently has a mental illness. The news isn't complete. The story hasn't been fully told.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:23 PM

Again, the conflicting reports seem to stem from the news media treating reporting as though it was a sprint race of some sort.   There are still conflicting reports as to whether Judge John Roll was killed or not. What is happening is that, as MSNBC is reporting, "the numbers don't add up" when you compare various reports about how many were "shot," how many "injured," and how many have died. But CNN and MSNBC both reported within the last few minutes that Roll had died. It would be a relief to find out that this information too was premature and incorrect.

Jeri, it's not just the Congresswoman. A nine-year-old girl was fatally shot and, apparently Judge Roll too, and there are 8 or 9 others who are still in surgery or in critical condition after surgery. This is a great tragedy for many families and for the people of Arizona. This kind of attack is not going to make their politics or their lives any easier to deal with.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:13 PM

Is it just me, or do other folks feel that when you see someone's name in a thread like this, you don't even have to read what they write, because they've already told you all their opinions?

The congresswoman, wife and mother is in the hospital after being shot. If all you do is talk politics, there's something wrong with your heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:10 PM

MSNBC reported just a few minutes ago, that the judge was not killed but is in critical condition.
A spokesman for the hospital where Gifford and 9 others were taken reported, just now, that only one of those 10 (a child about age 9) has died. A few are still in surgery, most are in the ICU. He is "about as optimistic as you can be in these circumstances" that Gifford will recover, though it's too early to know the nature of that recovery.   He said that she was "responsive to commands" but that she is under anesthesia at present, so I'm guessing he meant she was conscious and responsive to commands before she was anesthetized for the brain surgery.

A total of 18 people were injured in the attack, according to the Pima County Sherriff's broadcast of a few minutes ago, but several of those were apparently not gunshot wounds (probably injuries from the chaos in the crowd).


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:07 PM

Oh my!~ Terrorists!

Misuse of words, chapter two.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM

Well, Sarah, this is what happens when you pal around with terrorists.


The Pallin map on Fox News


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM

As of a few minutes ago, CNN and FOX both were reporting the congresswoman alive. Let us hope this is true and that she makes a full recovery. A Judge has been confirmed killed, as well as perhaps two or three others, which is sad and unfortunate. Nine others may be in hospital with unsaid wounds.

Donuel, CNN had a feed from KVOA (I think those the call letters), Tucson. The reporter noted that several of her supporters at that rally also had guns, and opined as that may have helped put an end to the shooter's rampage. Wondering out loud, but maybe those supporters had heard Glenn Beck support the 2nd Amendment right to own a firearm for protection. I'm pretty sure he didn't say it was to shoot up meetings and speeches.


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