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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

mousethief 09 Jan 11 - 05:31 PM
olddude 09 Jan 11 - 05:22 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM
Slag 09 Jan 11 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,Old Timer 09 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 03:40 PM
olddude 09 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM
Jeri 09 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 02:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM
bobad 09 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 09 Jan 11 - 02:21 PM
Greg F. 09 Jan 11 - 02:20 PM
bobad 09 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 02:06 PM
pdq 09 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM
EBarnacle 09 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM
olddude 09 Jan 11 - 01:47 PM
josepp 09 Jan 11 - 01:37 PM
Desert Dancer 09 Jan 11 - 01:14 PM
pdq 09 Jan 11 - 01:08 PM
Desert Dancer 09 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM
pdq 09 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM
artbrooks 09 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Jan 11 - 12:21 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM
josepp 09 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM
Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 11:07 AM
pdq 09 Jan 11 - 11:06 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM
Bat Goddess 09 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,number 6 09 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 09 Jan 11 - 09:36 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM
kendall 09 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM
Bobert 09 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM
akenaton 09 Jan 11 - 06:59 AM
VirginiaTam 09 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM
Smedley 09 Jan 11 - 06:26 AM
Genie 09 Jan 11 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Big Norman Voice 09 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM
Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM
Slag 09 Jan 11 - 05:20 AM
Ed T 09 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM
Slag 09 Jan 11 - 04:37 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:31 PM

This isn't the end but the beginning, apparently:

There was a Facebook page, now apparently removed, that said: Jared Lee Loughner American Hero, with a comment: Jared Lee Loughner: The man who fired the first shot in the 2011 US Civil War. Mark today in history and let the revolution begin!

Spin that, right-wing apologists.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:22 PM

don't really know the stats bobster, you are most likely right. I think it has a lot to do with the culture where you were brought up. Guns in my area is like tractors, they are respected and not abused. However I can't help thinking if one law abiding armed citizen was there, something less than 18 people would have been shot. Oh you won't be able to stop the first few rounds, but someone trained would have stopped him before so many were hit (I think anyway)

Police can't be everywhere all the time, we really do need to look after out own safety. I respect those that say they would never carry so do something else to protect yourself, take a marshal arts course something. Too many innocent victims anymore from crazies, people need to start thinking self defense and awareness. I am thinking of opening up my dojo again. Something I said I would never do.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM

The point is, Slag, that this was an assassination attempt of a federally elected congressman... Not some whack job in the tower in Dallas... Major difference... She was his target...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM

Would a couple of aides carrying have taken the guy out before he did any damage?

A politician must rub shoulders with the crowd; danger can't be wholly avoided, but some protection should be provided.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:45 PM

Genie, right. Bobertz, the point is thi is not a political event. The guy is a whack job. His rant could have been about the CIA or Martians contolling his mind. This is about mental illness and it is wrong for anyone of any political stripe to take off on their favorite opponent. The need is to reign in the political and focus positive support for the victims and loved ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Old Timer
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM

Very likely this young man has been on the path to disaster for years. At some point he was rewired to explode and someone was going to be hurt. The gun was a tool of convenience and the Congress woman was a target of choice. The Judge and the little girl and the others where targets by virtue of their being there. Nobody but the demons in Laugher's mind told him to do this. How and who he perceived the demons to be had nothing to do with who Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh are or their own brand of aberrant politics.

Timothy McVeigh's weapon of choice was a rental truck, diesel fuel, and fertilizer. Trucks, fuel, and fertilizer in that part of Arizona are as easy to obtain as is an auto loading pistol. The point is the depth of murder and mayhem is limited only by imagination and not the availability of weapons. Imagine the carnage that a tractor trailer
loaded with nothing at all could have done to that crowd of people.

I don't like Glenn, Sarah, and Rush even a little bit. They are guilty of a few things but not this crime. I believe his was the work of a mentally ill man and perhaps another, nobody else.

Old Timer


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:40 PM

Statistics don't back that up, Ol'ster... More people are killed in houses where there are guns than in ones without...

We are already the most heavily armed developed nation in the world and we have, by far, the highest per capita murder rates... Gettin' even more guns into the population is not an answer but a prescription for even more murders...

I agree, Jeri... We do need to dial it back... Speech that is bigoted needs to be called... Speech that advocates using violence needs to be called... Speech at inappropriate places such as Rep. W@ildon yellin' "You lie" during the State of the Union address needs to be dialed back... Speech from the minority leader in Congress that you wouldn't wnat your children to use as in "Hell no, we won't" needs to be dialed back...

I'd challenge anyone on the right to post examples of the kinds of speech that Dems and those of us on the left think needs to be dialed back...

(They just don't want to hear anything outta ya'll, Boberdz... What don't you get about that???)

Okay, I understand that, Anon, but in a democracy aren't we permitted to to have opinions and believe in them with any level of passion as long as we aren't promoting violence???

(See, Boberdz... It's this way... The right has been bullyin' so long that it no longer thinks you are a right to say a thing so just "Shut the fuck up"...)

What if I don't???

(Then it's got a bullet with yer name on it...)

Hmmmmmmmmmm???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM

Give every law abiding reasonable and legally licensed person allowed to carry one .. yup it does work. Heck crime in my area by gun violence and home invasion. Virtually doesn't exist. Good chance that 80 year old grandma is packing and knows how to use it


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM

That whole "dial it back" Jon Stewart thing makes even more sense now.

The problem with the mentally ill folks like Loughner is that nearly none of them actually kill people, and mental illness often isolates people so no one might notice anyway. Just opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:41 PM

Exactly, Alan...

That is my greatest fear... The right has been bullyin' and threatening the left for a long time now and there will come a time when the left has had enough of the right's boorish bullyin' and shoot back...

No, bILL,

We did not kill the Kennedies... The right wing did... Just as they have and continue to do... There are people out there in America who consider this shooter a "patriot"??? Okay, maybe the4y are sorry that the 9 year girl got killed but in their thinkin', "Hey, that girl shouldn't have been there to talk with that Democratic congresswoman..."

*********************************************************************

So, back to the discussion and sincere hopes that we won't have any other posters making excuses for the shooter...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM

olddude, a lot of garbage in this thread. As you say, absolutely nothing has pointed to any party or group influencing the mind of the shooter.

Many of these crazies, including this one, give out signals of their sickness, but little is done to control or treat them.

Arizona is a divided state politically, as much of the country, but most of us are satisfied with rhetoric and political action.

The shooter's twisted mind (and possibly that of others- police are looking for another) will be exposed as investigations progress.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM

Palin aide, Rebecca Mansour, attempting to spin the gunsights on the map as surveyor's symbols.

http://www.slate.com/BLOGS/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/01/09/palin-spox-targets-on-sarahpac-map-were-actually.aspx


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:21 PM

'The very subject of this thread and from reading through these posts disturbs me ... and convinces more that the U.S. is a nation of very frightened, extremely paranoid people ... a nation that has lost all reason, a polarized nation where right and wrong is defined by republican, or democrat, right or left and humanity is pretty well all but forgotten.'

To be honest, you've got plenty to be paranoid about. As we found to our cost in Northern Ireland, with political violence - the genie is a damn tricky thing to get back in the bottle. You see nutcase groups will give it a push, politicians will use it, other parties will see a business opportunity.

Without the efforts of Bill Clinton we'd probably still be in a hell of a mess over here. And we had gun control over here.

It all starts with immoderate language and abuse of political debate by firebrands. In NI we had Paisley, Thatcher and the young Gerry Adams (he got older and wiser). Over there you have Palin - don't worry someone will see an opportunity and start giving it back in the other direction. Then the shit will really hit the fan.

So take a stand - it means ordinary decent people have got to stand up and be counted, and demand change.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:20 PM

Need a new bumper sticker:

Guns Don't Kill People
The TEA PARTY Kills People

Loughner doesn't seem to have exhibited any behavior more bizzare than the Weeper Of The House does.

justices of the Supreme Court... shouting fire

That was Justice Holmes - not even CLOSE to being "left wing"- who also said that taxes are the price we pay for civilized society.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM

Hmmm.....yeah, great solution, give everyone a gun....that should do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:06 PM

Well, gol danged, folks... Lets just line up every Democrat or progressive and shoot 'um all 'cause pdq is pissed off about the shit goin' on on the Mexican border???

Not!!!

I absolutely do not get yer logic here, pdq... Are you actually making excuses for what happened yesterday???

And if you are then are your Taliban dues paid up because that is the kinda of thinking that permeates Taliban thinking...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

Thanks, oldude. It's nice to hear from a grownup occasionally.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM

I believe that one of the justices of the Supreme Court of the United States said it best: "Freedom of speech does not extend to yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater." The issue here is incitement...and the responsibilities which go with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:47 PM

No party is responsible, there is a rise in crazies an nothing more. Back in Teddy Roosevelt's day the party bantering was every bit as bad as today. The issue is the nut balls we have . I am so sick of the innocent people that continue to be victims of such insanity. Maybe it is time for all good people to figure out how to defend themselves, get some training and get an eye for security threats where ever they go. It is a sad world we live in. Get a concealed carry permit.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:37 PM

///That is the difference here, josz, that the right pretends not to get... It's one thing to argue politics... That is part of one's civic responsibility... It's quite another to use language that promotes violence... Sarah Palin is very much responsible for what happened yesterday... The entire Republican Party which until this happened was silent on threats of violence is responsible... They cannot hide from that...///

Yes, the republican party bears responsibility on this one. They let this kids of shenanigans go on for years--the violent shoot-em-up rhetoric, the hatespeech, the veiled and not-so-veiled racist comments directed at Obama--they allowed it, they nurtured it, they encouraged it. So let them reap what they have sown. They can't say this is not what they wanted. If it wasn't then why all the violent 2nd amendment remedies, reload rhetoric? It's exactly what they were bucking for and consequences be damned so I say they should be castigated in public, have their careers ruined and possibly face charges if anything can be proven.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:14 PM

Tucson is not in Mexico.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:08 PM

There have been about 10,000 murders along the border with Mexico in the last few years. Yes, mostly on the other side, but not all.

I was alway told that every life has the same value, no matter what station that person has in life.

There is justifiable anger at this sensless act of violence against a elected official, but where is the outrage at the slaughter that goes on every day? Perhaps some lives are considered more valuable by some fools?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM

pdq - shut up until you actually have a clue.

~ Becky from Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM

Tucson is about 70 miles north of the Mexican border. Essentially, it is part of the "war zone". The young shooter spent over half of his years attending violent public schools, doing drugs and listeneng to violent lyrics coming from radios and lowrider cars. No wonder he is "damaged goods".


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

It is over 300 miles from Tucson to Juarez.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:21 PM

O don't think it's bullshit Bobert.

"I shouted out
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM

That is the difference here, josz, that the right pretends not to get... It's one thing to argue politics... That is part of one's civic responsibility... It's quite another to use language that promotes violence... Sarah Palin is very much responsible for what happened yesterday... The entire Republican Party which until this happened was silent on threats of violence is responsible... They cannot hide from that...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM

Yeah, it's the public's favorite gripe: "You never see these politicians out here in the community until election time then they're shaking everybody's hand like he's their best friend."

Now you can't launch that accusation. They are now justified not to come out and meet you.

But my blaming Palin has nothing to do with politics. I'm not particularly left-leaning. I have to call it the way I see it. If you publicly target people exhortng the public to "reload" and "take em out" you are engaging in a dangerous tactic. I would call it irresponsible but only if you never expected anything to happen. If you were trying to get something to happen and something does then you weren't irresponsible but you are guilty of murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

So, pdq, are you blaming Democrats or progressives for that??? If so, you are delusional...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:07 AM

I suspect many government representatives (especially left leaning)are reconsidering unsecured discussions with citizens in the community, and revamping their security provisions.
Hopefully, this does not signal an end to local community discussions of this type...but, maybe they will become a rarer thing someday?

It only takes one nut, with an axe to grind. Nuts can easily be encouraged or provokes. I suspect they can always find a victim, no matter what the age.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:06 AM

Bad behavior? Here is what it's like on the border with Mexico, which is not that far from Tucson...


7:15am 10/14/09 -- Decapitated Woman Marks Disturbing Turn in Juarez Violence: As of last week, 100 girls and women had been killed this year in border city.

"Violence against women in the Mexican border city of Juarez is unfortunately nothing new, but the discovery of a decapitated woman in a public place last Sunday marks a disturbing new development in the violence-ravaged city, two experts told the El Paso Times.

'This is the first time a woman has been decapitated and her body displayed in this manner," Julia Monarrez Fragoso, a professor at the Colegio de la Frontera in Juarez who has spent 15 years researching the murder of women in that city, told the Times. 'It is frightening ... the civil society cannot and should not become accustomed to this kind of violence.'

The woman whose body was discovered Sunday next to a plastic bag containing her severed head still hadn't been identified late Tuesday, and authorities were waiting for relatives to show up at the morgue to identify the body, the Times said.

Monarrez said that as of last week, 100 girls and women had been killed in Juarez since the beginning of the year, a record for the violence-wracked border city, and more than 600 women's deaths have been reported since 1993, the paper reported.

'Decapitations of women are rare,' Sergio Gonzalez Rodriguez, an editor of the Reforma newspaper in Mexico City who has studied the phenomenon of decapitation in Mexico's ongoing drug cartel wars, told the Times.

'Beheadings are associated with the Zetas, enforcers for the Gulf drug cartel, who aligned themselves with the (Carrillo Fuentes) drug cartel in Jaurez. Officials have found evidence that some Zetas carry out human sacrifices and beheadings in honor of the 'santa muerte,' Gonzalez told the paper.

The woman who was found Sunday had a tattoo of 'santa muerte' (holy death) on her lower back, as well as a tattoo of the name 'Claudia', the Times said.

The santa muerte cult mixes the worship of ancient Mexican pagan deities, variations of santeria and the reported visions of a witch doctor in Orizaba in the state of Vera Cruz and appears to glorify criminal behavior, according to the Times.

'These horrifying crimes represent a disturbing degree of human degradation that has spread throughout Juarez and other parts of Mexico, and which contradict the authorities' claims that everything is under control,' Gonzalez told the Times."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM

Bullshit, bILL...

This bad behavior is 99.9% on the right side of the divide...

That is reality!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

This past Tuesday in the New Hampshire House, Republicans lifted the ban on firearms in Representatives Hall and surrounding areas. Firearms have been banned in the chamber since 1971. And they repealed a year old ban on weapons in the State House area.

Guns Welcomed Back

Back in the late '60s when I regularly came home from work (in downtown Milwaukee to a west 'burb) very late via two city buses with a layover on a deserted street corner in the middle, I carried a .25 Browning because, if I was going to be headlines, it wasn't going to be because I was found in a field someplace. I haven't carried one since.

I cannot think of a reason why state legislators need to carry weapons in the State House. I don't want to see all gun ownership illegal, but I certainly don't want everyone to be armed, either, and I don't want weapons in public places.

Ach!

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM

The very subject of this thread and from reading through these posts disturbs me ... and convinces more that the U.S. is a nation of very frightened, extremely paranoid people ... a nation that has lost all reason, a polarized nation where right and wrong is defined by republican, or democrat, right or left and humanity is pretty well all but forgotten.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM

Well, Alan, one thing is fir sure... There are way too many Americans who are not ready for a black president... Or a Jewish president... Or a gay president... Or a woman president... Or anyone who is left handed president... Or people who wear flannel shirts president...

I mean, what we have is a sub-species of Epsilons who have no ability to think critically, are vastly uneducated and seem to think that they have all the answers are ready to impose their answers on everyone else regardless of the means...

I, for one, am not ready to turn our *govern*ment over to these people just because they have guns... I mean, I have guns, too, but I also have critical thinking skills and an education...

I mean, let's get real... America has it's own Taliban...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:36 AM

Perhaps America just isn't ready for a black president.

You're not going to get a secular, industry friendly leader who cares about human rights elected in Iran or Iraq.

Given the composition of your country's population, perhaps its just a step too far for America - a black president who wants to sort out your healthcare system.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

Yeah, Capt'n, but never have so many whackos had so much cover from a major political party...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM

Re. gun laws - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#100


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM

There have been many incidents like this in countries that ban hand guns. The poor will always be with us, and so will the whackos.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM

What Genie said, Slag...

There is a world of difference between the "argumments" that the left makes and the "tactics" of the right...

The left owes no one an apology... We may make impassioned "arguments" for policies we believe in but we haven't been the one's using *terrorism* as a political tactic...

This is alot like an unarmed Rodney King sayin' "Can't we all just get along" while being brutally beaten by armed men...

No sir... If you think that the left is the problem here then I'd suggest reality therapy...

(Oh, Boberdz... That sounds like, ahhhh, mean words...)

Oh really???

Want some mean words, check out the calls to violence that is comin' outta the FOX Terrorism Network...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM

Forgive me if I state the obvious, but the US emphasis on the use of firearms these days comes almost entirely from the lunatic right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:59 AM

The US government's "drone warfare" kills thousands of innocents.
The US has a history of political assasination like no other country on earth, not just of its own politicians, but covert assasination attempts on the leaders of other nations and political systems....all this before the "Tea Party" was even thought of.

This seems like the action of a deranged young man, the likes of which are to be found in any society.
Considering the nature of US politics and the lack of political understanding in supporters of Both US political Parties, It is a miracle that events like this are more commonplace.

That being said, the folks directly affected by this tragedy deserve all our sympathy and good wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM

9 year old Christina Taylor Green (killed) had been invited by her neighbour to attend the event, because she had just been elected to her student council. Christina was born on 9/11 and was included in the book Faces of Hope, babies born on 9/11.

My heart is breaking for her family and friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Smedley
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:26 AM

Well said, Genie.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:10 AM

Slag, yes, it's true that people across the political spectrum, and usually without intending to incite violence, use metaphors such as "taking aim at" an opponent or "annihilating" them or "taking them down" - even "burying" or "destroying" them. Such metaphors are common both in sports and in politics.

But wasn't it Tea Party darling Sharron Angle who recently advised that if "we" didn't achieve our aims via the ballot, "we" should consider "second-Amendment remedies?"   And the charts that Palin has posted on her website, I think, go beyond the common usage of "destroy your opponent" metaphor.    There ARE websites that pretty much do call for the assassination of abortion providers, Muslim leaders, gays, and various other groups or individuals, and there are people who cheer when such people are actually gunned down.   No, it's not always people on a particular 'end' of the political spectrum, but today, anyway, the loud advocacy of gun ownership and usage and the opposition to any sort of regulation of such does come pretty much from the "conservatives" or libertarians.   And the vast majority of rhetoric I read or hear today that paints the opposition as some sort of demons or vermin also seems to be coming from the "right."   

Anyway, I think it's important to realize that if/when you announce that you think "somebody should take out" or "get rid of" some politician via "revolution" or "second Amendment remedies," you're baiting some nut to take that literally.

Oh, and I don't consider condemnation of violent rhetoric to be "launch[ing] into inflammatory vitriol," either.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM

Yeah well that's what happens when you think guns are clever.
The right to bear arms ! What a crock of shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM

""How about, let's all wait until we have a trial of the facts and learn what this young man had in mind before we launch into inflamatory vitriol of our own.""

Sounds good with me, from both sides of the issue. I am merely posting related information (what little exists at this point), and people are free to consider and discuss it or not.

And, note that I have not launched into "inflamatory vitriol" on this unfortunate circumstance, nor the broader issues raised by some.

IMO, posting news items. and related comments, and observations from these sources, and people closer to the situation than folks here contributes to just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:20 AM

Ok, Ed T, Sheriff Dupnik, was obviously emotionally impacted by the event and that is wholly understandable. He was trying to communicate as much as he could without compromising the ongoing investigation. He expressed a personal opinion, which I will grant is probably a considered opinion but he is not an expert in mental health.

As for vitriol, neither side has a patent on it. Much vitriol is expressed here at the 'cat from time to time but it is not recognized or owned by those various members as it is "their" vitriol and therefore, somehow, exempt from criticism.

I cannot help but relate to the elder Mr. Giffords as a fellow human being and I am sure that is exactly how he felt. I also understand that it is a sentiment and not a statement of fact that "the whole Tea Party" was his daughter's enemy. Factually that is incorrect on many levels, would you not agree?

As for Palin's use of a crosshair on the "aims" and goals for the causes she champions, she is not the first (although she may be the last) who has used such a symbol, from either party. Most rational people recognized that figures of speech and common analogies such as "taking aim" or "on target" or "I've got him in my sites" etc. are not meant to be inflamatory nor are such symbols as bullseyes and crosshairs (Target stores for instance). They are part of the culture and language and sane people get that, though they may be opposed to such. How about, let's all wait until we have a trial of the facts and learn what this young man had in mind before we launch into inflamatory vitriol of our own.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM

""Clarence Dupnik, sheriff of Pima county, said Miss Giffords was the target of a gunman whom he described as mentally "unstable" but not "insane".

The sheriff pointed to the vitriolic political rhetoric that has consumed the country as he denounced the shooting that claimed several of his friends as victims, including U.S. District Judge John Roll. The judge attended Mass on Saturday morning like he does every day before stopping by to say hello to his good friend Giffords.

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," the sheriff said. "And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry." ""




"" Her father, Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his daughter had any enemies. "Yeah," he told The New York Post. "The whole Tea Party."

In an interview last year with the MSNBC, Miss Giffords referred to Mrs Palin's target map a map of electoral targets

"When people do that, they've got to realize that there's consequences to that action," she said. ""

Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8248728/Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-Police-searching-for-


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:37 AM

Well, some of you seem to really be on top of it. Without knowing much beyond the newscorps' coverage it's safe to assume that this was a rightwinger 'cause we all know that only rightwingers are nut jobs. Without hearing a word from Beck or O'Reilly we already know that they support the nut job but they will pretned to be against him. The gun did the actual crime as it forced its way into the hand of the nut job and made him pull the trigger. Yup, no prejudice or bias here. With such unbiased and clear thinking as demonstrated in this thread how could anyone stumble over the truth as do those nut job conservatives, murders at the heart, everyone. And we all know that Sarah Palin was somehow manipulating this young man and others like him. She must be at the core of the whole episode. We ought to take them all out, line 'em up against a wall and let 'em have it the way they want to do us. We can start with GW as was discussed in the thread about executing him. We don't need no stinking trials. I'm sure Congrsswoman Giffords will agree with the sentiment expressed in this thread.

Now in a completely different vein (for some who might be slow on the uptake), my prayers and thoughts are and will continue to be with the families affected by this horrendous tragedy. I pray for the Congresswoman's speedy and full recovery and I asked that those who lost loved ones find that peace that passes all understanding and comfort in their terrible losses.


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