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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

pdq 14 Jan 11 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 11 - 09:58 PM
Slag 15 Jan 11 - 12:55 AM
Genie 15 Jan 11 - 03:41 AM
Ebbie 15 Jan 11 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jan 11 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Bobert in Greensboro, NC 15 Jan 11 - 07:38 AM
Ebbie 15 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM
Greg F. 15 Jan 11 - 10:16 AM
Ebbie 15 Jan 11 - 11:13 AM
akenaton 15 Jan 11 - 02:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM
Donuel 15 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM
mousethief 15 Jan 11 - 03:26 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM
Bobert 15 Jan 11 - 08:10 PM
olddude 15 Jan 11 - 09:07 PM
mousethief 15 Jan 11 - 09:49 PM
LadyJean 15 Jan 11 - 11:14 PM
olddude 15 Jan 11 - 11:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jan 11 - 12:57 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jan 11 - 04:43 AM
olddude 16 Jan 11 - 09:52 AM
Greg F. 16 Jan 11 - 10:46 AM
Greg F. 16 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM
artbrooks 16 Jan 11 - 11:16 AM
EBarnacle 16 Jan 11 - 11:52 AM
olddude 16 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM
pdq 16 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 11 - 12:51 PM
Donuel 16 Jan 11 - 02:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM
josepp 16 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 11 - 09:25 PM
josepp 16 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM
EBarnacle 17 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM
josepp 17 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM
Bill D 17 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 03:14 PM
EBarnacle 17 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM
olddude 17 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM
EBarnacle 17 Jan 11 - 04:39 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM
olddude 17 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jan 11 - 05:47 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 06:12 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 07:52 PM

January 8, 2011, 3:22 pm

          Paul Krugman

Assassination Attempt In Arizona

A Democratic Congresswoman has been shot in the head; another dozen were also shot.

We don't have proof yet that this was political, but the odds are that it was. She's been the target of violence before. And for those wondering why a Blue Dog Democrat, the kind Republicans might be able to work with, might be a target, the answer is that she's a Democrat who survived what was otherwise a GOP sweep in Arizona, precisely because the Republicans nominated a Tea Party activist. (Her father says that "the whole Tea Party" was her enemy.) And yes, she was on Sarah Palin's infamous "crosshairs" list.

Just yesterday, Ezra Klein remarked that opposition to health reform was getting scary. Actually, it's been scary for quite a while, in a way that already reminded many of us of the climate that preceded the Oklahoma City bombing.

You know that Republicans will yell about the evils of partisanship whenever anyone tries to make a connection between the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc. and the violence I fear we're going to see in the months and years ahead. But violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it's long past time for the GOP's leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers.


{note: Krugman said (she, Giffords) "...might be a target...precisely because the Republicans nominated a Tea Party activist...}

{note: Krugman is saying this c**p just hours after the shooting. He is taking the opertunity to bloody his usual enemies at the expense of six dead people. BTW, the judge who died was a Republican.}


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 09:58 PM

The only thing that is politically motivated, is group stupidity!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 12:55 AM

DougR, don't you know by now that if a Democrat does it, it's smart chic, happening and creative. If a Conservative does it it's stupid, inane, mean-spirited and vitriolic. Come on, get with the program.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:41 AM

Moving right along, ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:43 AM

"DougR, don't you know by now that if a Democrat does it, it's smart chic, happening and creative. If a Conservative does it it's stupid, inane, mean-spirited and vitriolic. Come on, get with the program."

Slag, I am almost you are not referring to murder. Are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 04:05 AM

Ebbs: "Slag, I am almost you are not referring to murder. Are you?"

Huh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Bobert in Greensboro, NC
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 07:38 AM

Paul Krugman outta stick with economics...

But sadly, intentional or not, I find it very curious that the folks who have actually been *killed* since 1963, of which there are many for their beliefs, seem to all be on the left side of the political divide..,

Yes, the "Big Three" (JFK, RFK & MLK) are well known... But when one starts Googling up other folks the list gets purdy astounding...

I mean, there members of county and city governments, doctors, security folks and nurses working at womens clinics...

So it's easy for those on the left, when yet another of their political allies is gunned down to think, "Oh, here we go again"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

In my latest post, insert 'sure' into a coherent space.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 10:16 AM

Coherent space, perhaps; coherent correspondents are another story....


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 11:13 AM

Well, since it is that we are discussing I thought that Slag's comment: "...if a Democrat does it, it's smart chic, happening and creative. If a Conservative does it it's stupid, inane, mean-spirited and vitriolic." he might have been referring to it.

(Not really)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 02:22 PM

Slag.....Can a man who sanctions and supplies the funds to increase the use of "killer drones",actually be described as caring?

Dont you mean that he employs rather professional scriptwriters?

The use of drones in Afghanistan has caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people, women,children, old people, blown to pieces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Not much hope for the mutilated either, no teams of doctors, no intensive care facility....just a stinking shitty dirt floor as an operating table.

But who cares? no memorial service for dead Iraqis or Afghanis, there may be a couple of terrorists among them, so that cancels out all the innocents.

In the great scheme of things, life means nothing to us. In our search for "Victory with Honour" the deaths of a few hundred kids are worth it.......so we can drag our sorry arses out of there with "honour"..


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM

Thanks to left-foot-in-mouths, sympathy for Republicans is growing. A couple of the worst examples of vitriolic nonsense can be found posted here.
(Remember 40 percent voted Republican in the last election)

Surveys show that most Americans don't think the political rhetoric was a factor in the shooting, and many said the poisonous comments were an attempt to make Conservatives look bad.
They do agree that the rhetoric on both sides has gone too far.

"Concocting connections to advance an argument actually weakens it. The argument for tonal moderation has been done a tremendous disservice by those who sought to score political points in the absence of proof."

New York Times. The Tucson Witch Hunt, Charles M. Blow, Op-Ed, January 14, 2011.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM

How quickly they forget http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/lashingout.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:26 PM

Good point, Q.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM

I am incredulous.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 08:10 PM

Ya' know... Doesn't much matter who's accusations are worse than the others... At least we are talking about the way we talk...

Personally, I think the right has more cleaning up to do but, hey, if we come outta this less divisive then everyone wins...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 09:07 PM

There is NO honor in war, only death ... The individual soldier doesn't make policy, He goes where he is ordered nothing more. Have an issue with it take it up with the powers who put him or her in harms way ..


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 09:49 PM

There is NO honor in war, only death

Whoa. Are you a Klingon? ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: LadyJean
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 11:14 PM

There were quite a few people in my old neighborhood who had mental health issues. BUT THEY WERE NEVER VIOLENT. There was one old dear who thought she was a nun, who was a bit of a trial to worshippers at the local Catholic church. But she was a peaceful nuisance. Most people with mental health problems aren't violent. Only a tiny minority are dangerous, and they are more so, because they have easy access to firearms.

You know it's a felony to own a ninja throwing star in California. But any nut can buy a gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 11:38 PM

Pretty much mouse LOL yup, but I don't got one of those funny looking swords they use. I think I would hurt myself with that blade


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:57 AM

Richard Bridge: "I am incredulous"

Well, finally we agree on something!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 04:43 AM

The difference, apparently, FFS is that I know what it means.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:52 AM

Here is an idea, for what it is worth. In a school, in a doctors office, if a child shows signs of child abuse, currently they are by law required to notify social services for a follow up investigation. If a mom takes a child to the ER room and the doctor "suspects abuse", he is required to file a report with the authorities to at least check out the home and parents.

Why are we not doing that for the mentally ill or disturbed? The first act would be to remove all firearms from the home, put an NCIC lock to prevent purchase until it is checked out. And maybe just maybe some of these people would get help Would that make sense?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 10:46 AM

Why are we not doing that for the mentally ill or disturbed?

Because it would be pointless since there's no way to legally incarcerate them any longer.

Next time you see Geraldo Rivera (a.k.a. Gerry Rivers) be sure to thank him.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM

And even if there were a legal option, no- one would be willing to pay for it. Gotta cut taxes, ya know, especially for billionaires & multi-national corporations.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:16 AM

Not exactly, Greg. It is apparently easier in Arizona. More here.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:52 AM

One of the victims in the shooting has been hospitalized for observation when he said to a founder of the Arizona Tea Party "You're dead." This was in the news this morning.

I wonder whether the same rule would have applied if he had said "you're politically dead."

The "dangerous to oneself or others" criterion for involuntary commitment has been around for at least 40 years. As a psychologist in the 70's and 80's, I had the onus of making these decisions. It is not always easy to decide...at least if you take it seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

we need to take that law more serious I think, maybe less of this stuff would occur. This young man was seriously disturbed and fell through the cracks. We do a lot to try and prevent child abuse, to try and get the dangerous drivers off the road, to try and prevent drug deaths. I don't think we do near enough to help the disturbed get help. My opinion ... we blame firearms, and a good case can be made for the easy accessibility via the gun show loophole. But the fact is, so many disturbed people are falling through the cracks of our society and when they lose it, we all lose. That is an area that needs addressed I think


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM

"...the "dangerous to oneself or others" criterion for involuntary commitment has been around for at least 40 years.

Longer than that. Serious efforts were made in the 1950s to liberate mental patients and prevent them from getting awful things done to them such as electro-shock treatment and lobotomies.

People keep bringing up the name of Reagan when talking about dumping crazy folks out into the stereet, but California's state mental hospitals had 37,000 patients in 1959, at the peak. By the beginning of 1967, when Reagan took office as governor of California, the number was down to 22,000, only about 60% of the 1959 number. That was done under "Pat" Brown, Jerry "Governor Moonbeam" Brown's father.

The California Legislature, a few months after Reagan began his first term, introduced the Lanterman-Short-Petris act which is, essentially, a mental patients "bill of rights".

I believe that L-S-P allows for involuntary commitment for up to 72 hours for the purpose of evaluation. The order to evaluate can come from only three groups of people: law enforcement officer, school teacher or judge.

What Regan did was follow the mandates of L-S-P which resulted in most institutionalised patients going into "halfway houses" by 1970.

The Pima County shariff knew about the Tucson shooter for perhaps 3 years and could have demanded that he be committed temporarily for evaluation. Had he done so, the FBI check probably would not have come back as clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:51 PM

Well, Ol'ster, in theory the idea of child and adult protective services is great... Reality??? Much different... Especially among the poorest among us... Believe me, it ain't that easy to get social services all worked up about abuse unless you have an air-tight case to present them...

When I was a social worker I saw too much really bad stuff... Kids you know were being abused... Child protective services people would ask, "Did you witness the abuse???" If not, then go peddle yer papers...

I mean, we all think that these agencies do more than they actually do when the time comes where you need them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 02:10 PM

Glen Beck was young once

Dopplegangers aside,
there are dots we are told we should not connect. Dots like FOX healines saying "Democrats visiously Attack Republican Women" and then 2 days later a democratic women gets her head stommped at a Rand Paul rally. Mindyou these are not a coincidence. Nor were the calls to kill or hang Obama in Sarah Palin campaign crowds, to which Ms. Palin merely smiled.

Birther Muslim death panel rumors did not erupt from a vaccume like some virtual particle. They are murderously intentional. They are openly designed to make Obama a one term president by any means necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM

Child protection agencies, and laws enabling involuntary evaluation, as Bobert suggests, sometimes seem to do little. They are hampered by a legal system which requires proof (a witness, etc.). Relatives bring actions to release the person being held responsible. School teachers and others outside the legal system are afraid that they will end up as the victims of suits or school boards who hate 'fuss'. Facilities for evaluation are short of money. Etc. Etc.

Correcting the system is difficult unless the public gets involved in a large way, and many people don't want to be bothered. Then they raise holy hell when they are affected.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM

///"Concocting connections to advance an argument actually weakens it. The argument for tonal moderation has been done a tremendous disservice by those who sought to score political points in the absence of proof."

New York Times. The Tucson Witch Hunt, Charles M. Blow, Op-Ed, January 14, 2011. ////

Except that no one has to concoct anything. I wouldn't believe a paper that hired Jason Blair and Judith Miller. I am the public and the public does not believe Jared Loughner was tea party member or was trying to carry out their agenda for them. But under no circumstances do I believe Sarah Palin is guiltless.

Here is why Sarah Palin is finished and will never survive running for another office: It doesn't matter a lick about Jared Loughner. It doesn't matter why he did it. Let's just assume he was acting completely on his own and his actions had absolutely nothing to do with the tea party or the RW rhetoric.

That's not what has ruined Palin. What ruined Palin is her actions just after the shooting. Between the time that the shooting occurred and the few hours that elapsed before the shooter was identified, Palin's map with the crosshairs came down and her statement on her FB page "Don't rettreat--instead RELOAD!" was removed. Why did she do that except that she obviously believed that she WAS responsible for the shooting. Then she remained silent for several days to make sure the tea party spin doctors made Loughner into a certifiable looney BEFORE she made any public statement.

In other words, she was destroying the evidence and whitewashing her websites in order to disavow any connection to an incident she feared that she was intimately connected to--that she, in fact, caused. Her actions are as transparent as a glass window. She was already distancing herself from her own rhetoric and tactics to prepare for the possibility that the shooter was, in fact, one of her dedicated followers. THAT is damning.

So if she somehow manages to throw her hat in the race in 2012 (and the tea party has so few candidates with any degree of mass public appeal that this is a possibility), she will be asked that: "Why did you remove your map and your 'reload' statement immediately after the shooting occurred and before anyone knew who the shooter was?"

What can she possibly answer when the only possible answer is that she was afraid that her words and tactics caused it? And why would she fear that except she knew perfectly well that the tactics were at best questionable and at worst capable of pushing a whacko to kill someone on her target list?

Then to get up a few days later and say, "See? He was just a whack job! It had nothing to do with me!" Doesn't hide the truth: she obviously thought right after the shooting that it did have something to do with her. She was acknowledging that the people who were calling for her to take down the map and tone down the rhetoric were right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:25 PM

Righto. Josz...

I mean, they even gave Palin a re-do and she and all her advisers still blew it???

Go figure... The ol' gal is a one-trick pony... Militarism and confrontation for any occasion...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Yep, she still had wiggle room if she had taken the smart tack during her last announcement and regret the rhetoric and maps and say she is done with that kind of politics. Hell, that might have made her a viable candidate. Instead, it was "I'm the real victim in all this! How dare you blame poor, little me!" Even people who thought she was being picked on turned against her if the various political forums and blogs are any indication. It wasn't the brightest thing to say.

By saying it, she blew it. Totally blew it down the toilet. She is now a spent force with a political career living on borrowed time with an expiration date stamped 2012 when it will no longer pass the smell test for even the dullest of noses.

I expect as 2012 nears, many in the tea party will read the writing on the wall and want to jettison her and others in the party won't allow it and so the tea party will fracture--is already fracturing--and it will also become a spent force. While I do believe some tea partiers have noble enough aspirations, the party as a whole deserves it for ever making room for this stupid woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM

Regrettably, she has what amounts to forever to recover. What is true today is likely to be invisible tomorrow.

No matter how much of a talking head she is presented as, she has a great probablility of shooting herself in the foot on a regular basis. Unfortunately, her faithful followers tend to to be the sort that, if she says manure is chocolate, will tend to eat it up.

Yes, Slag, I am contemptuous of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM

Oh, she won't go away. I'm not saying that but she will never be a viable candidate for the presidency after 2012. By that time, people will start looking for new blood since it will be obvious poor Sarah is just not electable. But she'll a RW Wacko cheerleader on the sidelines--that I'll guarantee.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM

I STILL don't believe she ever seriously intended to run for president. She has made millions 'hinting' that she 'might'. Being president is WORK and would require her to read boring documents...early in the morning.

As to a wide ranging Arizona law allowing almost anyone to initiate a process of incarcerating people for mental evaluation.
That sure sounds good on paper, but I can imagine why few other states have done it. It opens up things for simple harassment of folks one just 'doesn't like'...and IF they are deemed safe after evaluation, just being harassed may push a few to seek revenge....in some way. (Unless anonymity is offered to complainants.)
If every slightly 'odd' person were subject to screening, it could get out of hand.

   I am, though, in favor of some way of doing what this Arizona law seems to be after.... a way of investigating those who appear to their peers as unstable and 'treating' (whatever that might mean) them to lessen the odds of trouble... and in MY opinion, 'treating' would include putting them on a **DO NOT SELL GUNS TO THESE FOLKS** list.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 03:14 PM

Two states already have a program of trying to identify the loonies... Virginia, after Va. Teck, is one... Can't remember the other... So that leaves 48 for the loonies...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM

I have been listening to the various remembrances of the 60's and the career of Martin Luther King today. What is on the radio brings back memories of the period leading up through the resignation of Nixon. Those were scary times.

The issues have evolved somewhat since then but one thing that is coming back to me is that those were also scary and confusing times. A lot of people were being assaulted and shot by those who were determined to "protect their rights" against alla them others...the Blacks, Yankees, intellectuals, carpetbaggers who wanted to impose their values on "us," and so forth. It is unfortunate how little we have moved in almost 43 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM

Come on, let's knock off the fear and loathing shit...you are drinking from the same poison that you condemn the other lunatic with!!!..Jeez, get a clue!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM

Ok here is the bottom line, we can blame the media, the parties, our society, firearms, we can blame string theory if we want. But one thing I am certain, we are doing little to identify and help those that are truly mentally disturbed, unless we get a workable handle on that... look for more of this stuff and it doesn't have to be with a firearm either ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:39 PM

GfS, I am not putting myself on the same stage you and are referring to. I am talking about feelings and reactions. I am not putting anyone down.

What I left out is how often there was overt or covert support from local officialdom at that time.

At that time, I was one of the people on the receiving end. Even now, that can be a bit anxiety provoking. It did not keep me from working with people on both sides and it won't in the future. It certainly colors my thinking.

How many people of your acquaintance class you with "you damn liberals [and other, less polite names] who do X, Y or Z?"


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

Olddude, Good to see you're rising above the crap!

People can sometimes get infantile. A cursory reading of Matthew 5:21-22 shows that Jesus is speaking not so much about murder but of the steps that lead to it. He traces the roots of murder and war to three major sources: 1) anger, 2) hatred, and 3) the spirit of competition and aggression—in short, the self-centeredness of passionate carnality.

Oh, I forgot, some people think Jesus had nothing to say.......

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

It's not that easy, Ol-ster... States are having a lot of trouble these days balancing their budgets... That is reality... Also real is that none are spending anywhere near what they used to spend on mental health (per capita) back when I got into social work... So the question is is where is the money???

Of course, there are lots of people who just think that government is evil and ineffective and/or that money can't solve problems and unfortunately many of those people have found a safe haven in the, ahhhhh, government... That is a big problem on top of them lack of funds for mental health...

I remember when deinstitutionalization came about in a big way and the state hospitals unloaded their clients on society... Well, more on adult services social workers than anyone else... It was a mess... And not long after that we started seeing the cuts in Title XX funds that we, as scoail workers, used to purchase services such as transportation, adult day care, etc. so what we ended up with was a double whammy in that here we had massive case loads of menatlly ill people and no resources to serve them...

So for people to say that we "ought to" do this or that is all well and good but unless mental health becomes a priority, and this recent shooting won't bring about, we're kinda screwed... I'd love to see the states re-prioritize but it ain't gonna happen because it will have to be paid for... Just like sensible gun controls won't happen... Too much push back from the folks who either profit from the sales of guns or are paranoid...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

I don't disagree with ya bob, money is always a factor but somehow we have to make this a priority or just live with these continuing occurrences and that is very sad. Recently on the news here, a troubled teen murdered his whole family with a kitchen knife while they slept. Afterwords the same story, past friends saying he was hearing things and seeing visions ... neighbors saying he was so kind and nice but something changed in the last 4 years and it continues


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

30,000 people are killed with handguns every year in this country, Ol'ster... I'd say that we are way beyond being on the front edge of the repercussions of defunding our mental health agencies and hospitals... Way beyond...

The problem here is that there are forces that just don't wnat to do anything... The folks on the right who hate taxes, regardless of the fact that they are lower now than they have been in the last 50 years, have planted this "hate taxes and hate government" mindset so it is impossible to even discuss it rationally... Same with reasonable gun regulations... That discussion has been taken off the table, as well...

That's what you get when one side so totally controls the conversation... And guess what??? If 20 Congressman were shot nothing would change unless we could get private money out of politics... We have a broken system... Yeah, we can talk all we want about being civil but until the right loosens up it stranglehold on our democracy nothing will change... It will be the Wild West with most of ther cowboys being fringe loonies... Don't believe me??? Come to Richmond for one of the gun shows and just observe and listen??? You will hear more anti-Obama, anti-government, anti-human, anti-environment, anti-sanity conspiracy theorists ranting mindlessly about anything that comes into their minds...

I mean, we have a very sick society... Very sick...

Yeah, 30,000 murders??? Come on... We've not only crossed over the Loonie River but have burned the bridge behind us...


B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:47 PM

30,000? Not correct.
Handgun homicides about 8000 in 2004 (peak in 1993 with 14000). Other gun types, in 2004, about 2000.
From Wikipedia, Homicides by weapons type

(Posted in that gn control thread).


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:12 PM

I'll accept yer numbers until I find the sources who have been using the 30,000 number... BTW, this number has been in the Washington Post several times over the last couple of months... I just don't keep old newspapers...

BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct... There are moderators who struggle with folks trying to get their stuff into it... It's a push pull on a daily basis with folks trying to change the story, which BTW, is changeable...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM

Didn't take long...

You are not accounting for the 14,000 or so suicides, Q... They count, too, when we are talking about handguns...

More later...

B~


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