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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

olddude 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM
EBarnacle 11 Jan 11 - 11:28 PM
Donuel 12 Jan 11 - 12:16 AM
Ron Davies 12 Jan 11 - 12:28 AM
Donuel 12 Jan 11 - 12:33 AM
Ebbie 12 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM
Slag 12 Jan 11 - 07:52 AM
Slag 12 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM
olddude 12 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM
olddude 12 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM
Stringsinger 12 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jan 11 - 07:43 PM
Donuel 12 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jan 11 - 11:11 PM
EBarnacle 13 Jan 11 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 11 - 12:35 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 13 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM
EBarnacle 13 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM
Wesley S 13 Jan 11 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 11 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,olddude who is out of town today 13 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM
Desert Dancer 13 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,olddude 13 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,oldude 13 Jan 11 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,olddude 13 Jan 11 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM
mousethief 13 Jan 11 - 05:22 PM
josepp 13 Jan 11 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 11 - 05:36 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jan 11 - 05:44 PM
Don Firth 13 Jan 11 - 06:06 PM
Genie 13 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM
josepp 13 Jan 11 - 07:14 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 11 - 08:12 PM
Slag 13 Jan 11 - 08:14 PM
Charley Noble 13 Jan 11 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,number 6 13 Jan 11 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 11 - 09:59 PM
DougR 14 Jan 11 - 12:31 AM
mousethief 14 Jan 11 - 08:41 AM
EBarnacle 14 Jan 11 - 09:26 AM
Stu 14 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM
DougR 14 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM
bobad 14 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM
Wesley S 14 Jan 11 - 05:33 PM
Greg F. 14 Jan 11 - 06:46 PM
Genie 14 Jan 11 - 06:54 PM
pdq 14 Jan 11 - 07:32 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM

I like my glock thank you, but it is not something for reloads unless you know what you are doing. The make the bore just a tad bigger to feed hollow points freely, but that leads to kabooms. A kaboom is a term when the gun blows up. Factory loads are normally always safe but unless you have exact loading skills (I do cause I shoot a lot) not a good idea in that make of gun.

Likewise the trigger is the safety, there is no external safety. It leads to a faster target acquisition but in a hurry with sloppy technique you can put a new dimple in your own arse drawing it out of the holster. Not a good gun at all for a novice.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:28 PM

OK, while it's an extended clip he is reloading, he is not shooting clips of 300 bullets. He is reloading [often clumsily] to get off about 300 shots as quickly as he can.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:16 AM

Barnacle, you did not watch the entire video.

The last clip he uses actually has 293 bullets !

it is shaped like two cyliders instead of a long rectangle.

Frankly I think he was very lucky to not have a jam or worse*.


*a kaboom as old dude says.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:28 AM

So, trying to read between the lines, it seems we may possibly in fact all agree that no private citizen needs to own a semi-automatic pistol. If not, let's have the clear reasons why.


I'm trying to be realistic, if at all possible--therefore not even trying to ban normal citizens from owning handguns--just semi-automatic handguns.



We might even want to suggest that rifles not be restricted in public--if the people of Arizona, for instance, in their infinite wisdom, choose this approach-- but handguns cannot be brought to political events.   Since it doesn't appear that the shooter here actually had a death wish --"my assassination" did not seem to apply to himself--it seems reasonable that if he had seen rifles at this event, he would not have opened fire--since the end would be predictable.

As a deterrent, rifles would probably work. Another argument against concealed handguns--which would not work as a deterrent.

Of course political figures might well decide that rather than have the event look--and possibly act-- like an armed camp, the "town meetings" etc. would be cancelled.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:33 AM

More importantly, a poll claims 2/3s of Americans believe the killer was merely a deranged lone gunman without any political affiliation, intent or knowledge.

HE TARGETTED A CONGRESSWOMAN FOR 3 YEARS
HE WENT TO EVENTS SEVERAL TIMES.

How can anyone think that he lived in a vacuum and never heard the radio, never watched a FOX channel, never surfed the internet and encountered anti goverment sites, blogs, chat rooms or you tubes.

Was he really a bubble boy deaf dumb and blind.
Where do you think he got the idea for his "reading list?


It is highly important for FOX news and all right wing media to paint this man as a complete psychotic who is an extreme liberal yet has no political ties orinterests

do you not see the absurdity in that?
Please think again if you do

Many here have fallen for it. Just because he is deranged does not mean he has not been influenced by the world in which he lives.


IF Two thirds of us really believe that, the hateful race baiting name calling propogandists are actually loving angels from heaven and have proved themselves innocent of ever inciting anyone to say or do anything.

and in turn there is no need to even think about making new gun laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM

A concern to me is the 18 other names on the Palin map.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM

OK, OK..Calm down!!!...First of all, I wasn't going to post at all about this, being as we are all being inundated 'ad nauseum' with politicized accounts of this story....and at this point, who in the hell is going to take common sense into account??
First of all, that dumb-shit sheriff should shut his fat stupid mouth about his OPINION, when the suspect hasn't said shit! It is completely stupid, beyond belief, that this moron, the sheriff, is saying all the stuff he is, and possibly jeopardizing the case against the shooter!!!..he is just speculating, as to a motive, and tainting any jury pool!!!!! The defense will argue that this idiot won't be able to get a fair trial, if everybody forms an OPINION!..RIGHT??
For all we know, being as Giffords just asked for more federal aid for the border, that this guy could have connections for a drug cartel, on this side, of the border! For all we know, he might have had a 'jones' for her, and has been stalking her. YOU DON'T know, as any of us DON'T KNOW..and now the national discussion is only restricted to political blathering!!..and YES, he MIGHT just be a crazy lunatic, with a death wish..WHO KNOWS??? To say he is NOT 'just a loony' is just as stupid, too. Should he be a completely 'sane' mass murderer?????
In any event, the far left and far right are working overtime, to cast blame, or dodge it..and EVERYBODY, into that discussion is just furthering the problem!!
Case in point: Alleged Muslim terrorists fly planes into the twin towers..the left wants them tried as civilians, the right, military tribunals. The left doesn't even want them labeled as 'terrorists'...BUT, they are making political hay over this 'jerk-off' in Arizona! ..as if he is any more or less of a murderer than the 'misguided' religious zealots who crashed planes, into buildings in New York! This is DUMB, beyond rational thinking!!!
Sure, I think he did it, BUT NOBODY KNOWS for sure what twisted screw he has, or really WHY he did it!!..So stop acting like a bunch of vigilantes in a lynch mob, pointing fingers at EVERYONE who you politically disagree with!!!..on either side!!!..or you will ALL share in his lunacy!
The courts are the place for the story to come out. Who knows, we all might learn more, before this is over with..and I'm sure we will..IF he can get a fair trial!
He may have acted alone without help from 'talk radio' of he might have been influenced. Shit, the whole country is berserk over political wrangling..to the point, that you might just MISS the TRUTH!!
..and you can bet your bottom dollar, that the defense, is going to, first request to move the trial, and then argue for a dismissal, on the grounds that he can't get a fair trial!!...only the innocent victims who were killed, would then be the prosecution's strongest case...(which in my humble opinion, would be strong enough!)..in which case, he might just clam up, and we might never know the real reasons WHY!!
Personally, I think the case is air tight against him. That being said, let's not provoke each other to share his deranged frame of mind, out of finding reasons to hate one another over it!! Is this something we really want to partake of??? Let us NOT share in his, hate, political extremism (if that was all that was behind it)or lack of sanity!!!

Thank You,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:52 AM

Well, I was wondering where the heck you were GGfS.Thank goodness you have remained so calm.

Donuel, you saw the rig that guy had in order to keep the piece steady: Stock and he used the clip as a grip. Glocks just don't jam or apparently melt either. I had never seen a double drum set up like that. It was impressive. I really wanted to see whatever he was shooting at too. Obviously this had to take place on some other country's soil as the whole thing would be slightly felonious here in the states.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM

Whoa, I watched that again and it appears that it did jam. That slide did not lock back after the last round, hence his sheepish grin.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM

Well Ron if nothing else, serious training before one can own a semi auto. That I would agree to. And the gun did jam according to the news. The gun is not designed to hold a 30 round magazine. The spring inside the extended aftermarket clip malfunctioned (thank God). And yes the political rambling on the networks is odorous to say the least. A lot of good people died including a young girl for no reason at all. Now disturbed people do things for reasons the clear minds cannot comprehend. For their 15 minutes of fame, because of depression, because of deep routed hate. Who the heck knows. All I know is it keeps happening more and more lately, and sadly it will continue I think. Hate bantering between parties does not push a clear minded person into doing such things. However, it doesn't help the borderline wack job to think clear either as Bob said. I have no solutions, only questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM

Palin responds with accusations of 'Blood Libel'


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM

If you take nothing away from this thread other than, be aware. That would be a good thing. When you are at a shopping mall, the last thing on your mind is running into some maniac with a gun or a knife. However, in this day and age, in this society, you actually do have to think about it, look around and know that in that sea of people some percent of them are disturbed. Then what would you do if the unthinkable occurs. That is a smart thing. It changes behavior not in a bad way, but in a good way. Maybe I won't walk by that row of hedges where the street light is out ... those types of things, a change in normal thinking and behavior to avoid it the best you can. I use to tell people when you are approached by someone you don't know, if you don't feel comfortable then ignore and walk away. It is their feelings vs your safety ... this stuff will continue sadly


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM

It should be mentioned that this type of incident occurs every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:43 PM

Alberta has held the line on funding mental treatments and institutions; with increasing population, more disturbed people are on the street.
The same is true of many states.
Olddude's advice, be aware, should be heeded.


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Subject: Gabby opened her eyes
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM

If she can open her eyes, well then perhaps we all can.
At the end of these 5 sad days I believe I have opened my eyes. Certainly there was no one more partisan than I for saying within minutes of the shooting that the Repbulican shock and hate campaigns were the direct cause of this slaughter.

I was wrong. My cries came from having a 10 year old psychic wound ripped open. All the collected insults to sensibility of contentious words and even worse from a hateful silence, the kind of silence that came from Sarah Palin when people at her rallies said "Hang Obama" or "KILL'EM"...and she stood silent. The pain of having to to defend against a tide of people who wanted to elevate torture as a collective good. All of the real and imagined assaults on sense and sensibility all came flooding down and blamed BEck and talk radio for the rampage. It was not the reason. My partisanship and personal pain blinded me for a time.

Wile I can not go as far as Gov. Brewer and claim the reason why will be an eternal mystery, at least I can let go of a laser thin focus of blaming a roomgul of propoganda preachers.

Though my physical eyes are fading I need to see with better eyes and see through the walls, divisions, lies and partitions in my community, nation and the world to do what can be done for greater understanding and fellowship.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 11:11 PM

Stringsinger: "It should be mentioned that this type of incident occurs every day in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Mexico too!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:08 AM

Donuel, Even if Palin passively accepted her followers screaming hate, even if she had not encouraged them, her denial that she encouraged her followers to violent action is ingenuous. It is possible that, for the sake of popularity with her voters, she allowed the to scream and rage in murderous ways. If she were truly leading them away from violence, she would reasonably have said something simple, like "These threats of violence are not in the true spirit of American political discourse."

Of course, she or her followers may have had problems with the big words.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:35 AM

The more you feed it, the more it grows!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM

A glowing assessment of Obama's speech in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM

Freedland's article says what I have been thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:51 AM

I've also posted this in the gun laws thread too.

From MSN:


Glock Pistol Sales Surge in Aftermath of Arizona Shootings
January 12, 2011 12:01 AM ET
By Michael Riley

Greg Wolff, the owner of two Arizona gun shops, told his manager to get ready for a stampede of new customers after a Glock-wielding gunman killed six people at a Tucson shopping center on Jan. 8.

Wolff was right. Instead of hurting sales, the massacre had the $499 semi-automatic pistols -- popular with police, sport shooters and gangsters -- flying out the doors of his Glockmeister stores in Mesa and Phoenix.

"We're at double our volume over what we usually do," Wolff said two days after the shooting spree that also left 14 wounded, including Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who remains in critical condition.

A national debate over weaknesses in state and federal gun laws stirred by the shooting has stoked fears among gun buyers that stiffer restrictions may be coming from Congress, gun dealers say. The result is that a deadly demonstration of the weapon's effectiveness has also fired up sales of handguns in Arizona and other states, according to federal law enforcement data.

"When something like this happens people get worried that the government is going to ban stuff," Wolff said.

Arizona gun dealers say that among the biggest sellers in the past few days is the Glock 19 made by privately held Glock GmbH, based in Deutsch-Wagram, Austria, the model used in the shootings.

Sales Jump

One-day sales of handguns in Arizona jumped 60 percent to 263 on Jan. 10 compared with 164 the corresponding Monday a year ago, the second-biggest increase of any state in the country, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 02:40 PM

...and Guild no longer makes their phosphor bronze..
Drag!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,olddude who is out of town today
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM

I was watching a show on the history channel. If we think the political rambling and hate words is bad today. In Lincoln's time they would argue, roll up their sleeves and go outside and fist fight. One account a friend of Lincoln was getting clobbered so yup, he left the platform rolled up his sleeves and went at it .. Now I am not saying they should not tone it down. Heck yes they should, but it was even worse in the past history. Then again, Abe got shot also


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM

Yes, physical violence was once more common, including in the halls of government. Here's a NYT OpEd from this week, by a Yale historian, describing the shootings, canings, fisticuffs, etc.. More things than that that have changed since the Civil War, as they should. Idealizing the past is a mistake, especially in discussions of government. The challenge is to continue to move forward in a positive way.

I'm curious what you think of Nicholas Kristoff's suggestions today about gun regulation, olddude? --

>> • Limit gun purchases to one per month per person, to reduce gun trafficking. And just as the government has cracked down on retailers who sell cigarettes to minors, get tough on gun dealers who sell to traffickers.

• Push for more gun safes, and make serial numbers harder to erase.

• Improve background checks and follow Canada in requiring a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun. And ban oversize magazines, such as the 33-bullet magazine allegedly used in Tucson. If the shooter had had to reload after firing 10 bullets, he might have been tackled earlier. And invest in new technologies such as "smart guns," which can be fired only when near a separate wristband or after a fingerprint scan.

We can also learn from Australia, which in 1996 banned assault weapons and began buying back 650,000 of them. The impact is controversial and has sometimes been distorted. But the Journal of Public Health Policy notes that after the ban, the firearm suicide rate dropped by half in Australia over the next seven years, and the firearm homicide rate was almost halved. <<

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM

Desert
I have no problem at all with that proposal .. it is a sane one and anything that is sane gets my support


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,oldude
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:26 PM

by the way, like I said before the glock is NOT the gun for a novice. With the new "rush to buy" there were be more injuries just because of accidental discharge. Like I said, no external safety on that weapon, it take a lot of training to handle a glock


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:52 PM

by the way, I don't think the right to bear arms was designed for the unstable and for those unwilling to get training, or the criminal .. but that is just my 2 cents. It is why me and the NRA parted company. If a sane, non criminal who gets training, I have no issue with them owning a firearm


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

Now that the political discourse has run itself out of credible information (read: unreliable OPINIONS), let's all blame the guns!
As it turns out, the shooter in Tucson, as more background information is being released about him, he was NOT involved with the TEA Party, he wasn't into 'talk radio', he wasn't even very political, according to his interviewed friends. He WAS known for being 'scary', even other students in his school felt uncomfortable with him in the classroom, among other things being revealed about him by people who knew him!

What is really..I mean, REALLY screwed up, is how fast the finger pointing began, followed by 'tit for tat' instances, cited by those on BOTH sides! I guess it all depended on who, or what your favorite 'news' source was.

Those who wrongly jumped on the 'Conservatives' are being thoroughly embarrassed, with every release of new information! Those on the right, are doing the 'tit for tat' rap, and showing how nasty they can be, as well!

My post:GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM....
...was pretty accurate. Starting, as soon as to 'NOW', as you can, after the 'light goes on', isn't it time to begin healing, our fellow brothers and sisters, who are all wound up, with 'fear and loathing'??

I know things are strained, in our country. I know things are being fanned, to play on people emotions, on both sides. I know there are fissures in our society, over things that in everyday life, people don't normally give a rat's ass about!..but I also know that many of us are musicians..some even venture into being perfectionists....why allow 'bullshit' into your filters, to work through???

I'm on YOUR side!!!..but as a musician/composer, lyricist and artist. You just can't let emotions, which are genuine, but fanned by false partisan propaganda, be an anchor to your mediocrity. You might just play a phrase, that would catch someone's heart, and open up a world of common sense, and compassion in them,.......but not if you're all torn up, worried and resentful, about stuff that wasn't even true, about this rather sad enough affair!

On some level, and sooner or later(better sooner than later), those who have the gift, to reach into where great music comes from, and touch other people, with it...soon as they can rise above the fray, and get clean, and free of it...THE BETTER YOU are playing, and focusing!!!...and of course, the more you will have to say!!!(Whether lyrically, or instrumentally,or both!).

Time is getting shorter. Snap now, and avoid the 'rush'!

Regards,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:22 PM

No, olddude, fistfights are NOT worse than shootings. Sorry to have to say this.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:29 PM

/////HE TARGETTED A CONGRESSWOMAN FOR 3 YEARS
HE WENT TO EVENTS SEVERAL TIMES.////

But he didn't shoot her until AFTER she was targeted by Palin so your point is, not surprisingly, pointless. There is no way you can prove Palin's words and others did not push him over the edge.

I am not arguing politics here. The politics have nothing to do with anything. I am arguing actions and intent.

////a poll claims 2/3s of Americans believe the killer was merely a deranged lone gunman without any political affiliation, intent or knowledge.////

Obviously this is true but it has nothing to do with anything. He was strongly anti-govt and there is every reason to believe he would have given ear to the anti-govt rhetoric of extremists as Palin, Bachman and Angle. If he already disliked Giffords and then sees that these people seem think the same way and seem to be urging someone to do her in, then he might have decided to do it himself--not because he knew or cared what these people stand for but because there seemed to him to be a message to do it. Nothing more.

I strongly believe these people played a part in this incident. It is entirely reasonable for me to assume so. It is entirely unreasonable for people like you to disagree. None of our arguments against hold water.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:36 PM

That is IF he even listened to those people, and his close friends who knew him, said he didn't get into politics...and didn't care about that shit! So if he wasn't listening to it, your argument falls down..fair enough???

Play music. Heal!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:44 PM

The rhetoric on both sides apparently had little to do with the Tucson shooting.

The media and agitators love to ride such speculations to death.

In the mid-19th C. Congressmen carried handguns into their chambers.
One incident frequently mentioned in histories of the time, in 1850, Sen. Foote of Miss. pulled a pistol on Sen. Benton of Missouri during a debate.
Fights with canes could be deadly, one congressman was caned so badly that he couldn't participtate again for three years.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 06:06 PM

According to a couple of things I've read about the shooter, his two favorite books were Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler and Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

Not politically motivated? I wouldn't say that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM

First, it's encouraging that Congresswoman Giffords is still hanging in there and conscious and has a chance at recovering perhaps a good deal of her previous functioning, and that most of the other wounded seem to be making progress too.

Second, our hearts go out to the families and friends of all those who were so senselessly killed.

Beyond that, I hope this horrible incident will help bring most of us closer to consensus on a few things or at least engage in serious, responsible dialogue about them:

~ While no one can draw a direct causal relationship between the virulent rhetoric of some politicians and media darlings and the mindset of young Mr. Loughner, when extremely divisive & vitriolic rhetoric dominates our politics & our media, portraying those who differ from us in ethnicity, religion, etc., or in political orientation as inhuman scum or impending dangers to our well-being, it's hard for anyone to escape the impact of such, whether they regularly watch TV or listen to radio or not. The ripples carry far.

~ Weapons that are capable of inuring or killing dozens or people in a matter of seconds probably do need to be less readily available not only to "convicted felons" but to others who have a history of violent outbursts and/or who have not demonstrated the know-how to curb the excesses of their use.

~ No party or political perspective or philosophy has a monopoly on hate speech or on the sensationalist abuses of our political parlance. Still, to assume from the start that "both" or "all" parties are equally in need of reining in their rhetoric" does a disservice to meaningful dialogue. We need to call out the excessive rhetoric itself when it occurs, without a preconceived notion that the 'scorecard" must "turn out' basically even.
It may not.
But no one should be deterred from using rhetoric such as "this bill is an outrage to American justice" or such and such legislation "could have disastrous consequences" or even that such and such actions would be "treasonous" or that someone "is guily of war crimes" if there's some reasonable basis for such judgments and there's no suggestion of dealing with those people or issues by other than lawful means.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 07:14 PM

///That is IF he even listened to those people, and his close friends who knew him, said he didn't get into politics...and didn't care about that shit!////

Didn't get into politics???? Did you read what he wrote? I think you're the one whose shielded from reality. This guy wrote diatribes and posted them all over the internet about how much he distrusted the govt and then he targets a congresswoman BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION FOR 3 YEARS!!! Stop trying to have it both ways. Yes, he was a VERY political person. Obviously. That he was stuck in his own weird little world is completely beside the point. He encountered the rhetoric and it got into his head and became a mission which he carried out. You'll never be able to disprove that. Whether it's true of not, it will always remain a strong possibility and it is a stain Palin and her ilk can never wash off. And they deserve that fate for resorting to that shit.

////So if he wasn't listening to it, your argument falls down..fair enough???////

Well, of course, if he never heard it then my argument fails. Boy, you must have graduated from Harvard! That's the very thing you will never be able to rule out no matter how much you want to believe it. He COULD have encountered this rhetoric--it was all over the internet, TV, newspapers and magazines. You have to wonder how he could possibly have avoided it considering how anti-govt he is. It's frankly highly improbable that he didn't encounter any of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:12 PM

Our current gun laws are insane... No, beyond insane... The would be insane if Congresswoman Giffords was not shot, if Robert Kennedy were no assasinated, if Dwayne Dettman was not shot down by a friend of mine... They are insane all by themselves....

The 2nd amendment in no way gives carte blank permission for anyone to own whatever gun he or she wants... For anyone willing to actually read it as the ****one**** sentence that it is gun ownership is clearly tied to the maintaining of a militia... One person does not make up a militia... Had the amendment been 2 sentences rather than one than the NRA and the gun0nuts would be able to argue their opinions based on the Constitution... Unfortunately for them it is one sentence which, BTW, they never quote in total but quote only part of...

But even if the Founding Fathers had made it two sentences then our gun laws would still be insane...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:14 PM

Sigh, I just wish everyone was the same as I, then it wouldn't matter who owned guns, we'd all be safe. I wish everyone was as intelligent as I, then EBarnacle wouldn't have to worry tendentiously about his sesquipedalian vocabulary being lost on the heathen right. I wish we all had love in our hearts for all God's creatures, not to mention love for God Himself. I wish everyone thought as I did, did as I did and lived as I did, ad nauseum.

On the other side of the planet, I finally heard an Obama speech I could relate to. Masterful, brilliant and caring.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:37 PM

I like the news that Congresswoman Giffords is able to open her eyes, move her hands and is now demonstrating that she can lift both of her legs. That is a major miracle considering what was done to her.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:42 PM

I agree Charley ... it is wonderful news.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:59 PM

Donny First: "According to a couple of things I've read about the shooter, his two favorite books were Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler and Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.
Not politically motivated? I wouldn't say that."

Well, Didn't you post in another thread that you were very 'Bible literate, but weren't really a Christian??

Shit happens, eh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 12:31 AM

Josepp: and you have evidence that remarks by Sarah Palin or anyone else caused that nut to go on his rampage? If so, produce it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 08:41 AM

Way to miss the point, DougR.

Here's a tasty little number:

Tucson tea party founder says Giffords to blame for getting shot


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 09:26 AM

Doublethink at its finest.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM

Shine on. Having read mousethief's link, having seen some of the stuff on Fox over here in the UK and in the papers I've come to the conclusion that conservatives (here and in the US) really are a mean, and sometimes downright nasty bunch of people - especially in a group. I mean, compassion and caring for other people that you might not be related to is NOT some left-wing failing, but a basic human necessity. I'm befuddled some people don't have it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM

Doesn't prove a thing. The co-founder of the Tucson chapter of the Tea Party merely reported what he had said to Rep. Gifford. There is nothing in the article proving that conservative talk caused the killer to take his gun to the politial rally and shoot up the place.

Truth is, there is ample biased political talk from both conservatives and liberals to go around. The Democrats have used the same termonology (tarketing political districts) in previous political campaigns and there have been no loud calls of foul from liberals when they used it.

Sugar Foot: Conservatives in the U.S. do not constitute a danger to folks living here. We are civilized folks who obey our laws.

If you want to get a real clear picture of what vitrolic political talk is like in the U.S., tune in to MSNBC sometime.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM

Armed bystander almost shot hero that disarmed AZ shooter

By David Edwards
Friday, January 14th, 2011 -- 1:12 pm

Maddow destroys GOP fantasy that more guns equals less violence

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/armed-bystander-shot-hero-disarmed-az-shooter/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 05:33 PM

"There is nothing in the article proving that conservative talk caused the killer to take his gun to the politial rally and shoot up the place."

And I would agree. But now that the subject has come up isn't a good idea for BOTH sides to tone it down? It's still a good thing to promote even if it didn't cause this whacko to pull the trigger.

Or we could just wait for "them" to stop first. In which case nothing will happen.

After all - "they" started it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 06:46 PM

Way to miss the point, DougR.

And way to deny reality. But what else did you expect? Ain't the first time and sure as hell won't be the last.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 06:54 PM

Wesley and DougR, ANYONE who uses really vitriolic "annihilate-them" rhetoric needs to turn it down. And, no, it's not always those on "the right" that use it. Back in 1968, a speech was given at the American Psychological Convention in San Francisco by (IIRC) Kathleen Cleaver, wife of Eldridge Cleaver, in which she repeatedly proclaimed "The gun is the answer!"   I found that sort of perspective and rhetoric disturbing even back then, and she was definitely "leftist" in her political leanings.   

But there is an important difference between simply using strong rhetoric to highlight one's opposition to a candidate or policy or law (e.g., calling a policy "atrocious" or even "criminal") and saying things like "I'd like to blow his brains out" or that citizens should "be armed and dangerous" because it's time for a "revolution." There's also a big difference between calling out someone because of something they've actually proposed or done (e.g., initiated the occupation of another country or suspended habeas corpus or authorized unwarranted wiretaps or voted to raise/lower taxes) and spewing hatred towards someone because of false or unfounded allegations (e.g., saying that "Obamacare" involves "death panels" or that Obama "wants to take your guns away" or that today's Democrats are "communists." There's a huge difference between saying that you think so-and-so should be investigated or indicted and tried in legitimate courts and calling for so-and-so's murder or assassination.

Some well-known talk show hosts, bloggers, columnists, and political "strategists" HAVE talked/written of wishing they could kill people they disagree with (e.g., Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, etc.)   I have heard one or two liberal talk show hosts say they "hate" the far right wing or label people like Mitch McConnell or Dick Cheney or Bill O'Reilly "Today's Worst Person In The World" but never heard any of them say they would like to kill them or see them assassinated or. I've never heard any of them suggest that guns or bombs or any sort of violence should be used against people just because their policies and politics differ.   

Let us not make the mistake of lumping all hyperbole & sarcasm & strongly worded allegations or objections together. And, please, let's not propose that everyone refrain from using emotionally charged or blunt, confrontive language when it fits.   We don't need to revert to saying things like "Holding people indefinitely in GITMO without affording them legal counsel or even charging them with any crime isn't a very nice thing to do."

But it's not valid to say that really vitriolic rhetoric, especially when it evokes images of dealing with opponents by bloodshed, does not contribute to things like shooting rampages, just because we can't draw a direct single-causal line between the rhetoric and such a violent attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 07:32 PM

Mark Hemingway 01/11/11 1:15 PM

Ex-Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., pens an op-ed in the New York Times today about the proper political response to this weekend's tragedy. I wholeheartedly support the former Congressman (Kanjorski lost his seat in November) when he argues that, following this weekend's shooting, Congressman need to remain open and accessible to the public. However, Kanjorski is rather hypocritical when he climbs up on his soapbox:

"We all lose an element of freedom when security considerations distance public officials from the people. Therefore, it is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation."

Incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect? Congressman heal thyself! Yesterday, I noted that, according to the Scranton Times, Kanjorski said this about Florida's new Republican Governor Rick Scott on October 23:

"That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a damn crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."

I'll give Kanjorski the benefit of the doubt that he did not literally mean Scott schould be killed. Regardless, Kanjorski's way over the rhetorical line compared to the kinds of statements liberals are pointing to as evidence that Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh are creating a "climate of hate," to borrow Paul Krugman's phrase. And somehow I doubt that there would have been crickets from the national media if a Republican politician called for a Democratic candidate to be shot barely a week before the election.


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