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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

DMcG 11 Jan 11 - 10:35 AM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 10:47 AM
Greg F. 11 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 11:08 AM
pdq 11 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM
Ebbie 11 Jan 11 - 11:12 AM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM
pdq 11 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 11:39 AM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 11:41 AM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM
Greg F. 11 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM
Ebbie 11 Jan 11 - 12:05 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,TIA 11 Jan 11 - 12:36 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 01:15 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Jan 11 - 01:39 PM
Greg F. 11 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM
Bettynh 11 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 03:07 PM
EBarnacle 11 Jan 11 - 03:10 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM
Greg F. 11 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 11 Jan 11 - 06:32 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM
Slag 11 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 07:56 PM
Greg F. 11 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM
Genie 11 Jan 11 - 09:20 PM
Genie 11 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 10:28 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 10:48 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 10:50 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:35 AM

No restriction on the weapon could stop this guy intent on doing such a terrible thing
If you mean no restriction could make it impossible, then you are right. On the other hand, we might think making it much harder or less likely would be a good thing, even if we can't achieve perfection.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:47 AM

I agree, I have been pushing for a national carry law for years and that is something that makes sense. Maybe we are talking different things here. What I am saying is a total gun ban, like the total drug ban does nothing. Restricting certain types of weapons, sure we have done that for years. Passing more laws that no one enforces however changes nothing. A consistent handgun ownership law at the national level, you got my support for that. You and I both agree NY sets the bar pretty darn high (as it should be for conceal carry. I actually think NY has a pretty darn good system before allowing a private citizen that much responsibility.

Now as far as some of the characterization I read about gun owners on this thread. It is border line bigot. I can assure you gun owners range from every walk of life. We are not hot headed, simple "country folk" who shoot critters for our meals. We are from every walk of life and I will bet my bottom dollar in your family your dad or grand dad owned guns also. So you characterize yourself when you say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM

What I am saying is a total gun ban, like the total drug ban does nothing.

Agree, absolutely, Oldster. And would be impossible to enforce, as most any law enforcement personnell will admit. We lost the "War On Drugs" before it was declared.

Speaking of enforcement- seems to be an American delusion that all you need to do is pass a law to solve a problem. Eight times out of ten times the resources necessary for adequate enforcement are seldom if ever considered, and nine times out of ten the required personnel, equipment & budget are never allocated.

Then people complain the law isn't being enforced.

Go figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:08 AM

And I am no more safer when someone owns just a shotgun as I am if that same person owns a handgun. With the exception he is less likely to always have the weapon on him, However, A defective person will simply use his shotgun. Take away all the guns, wow, they go to Mexico and come back with an arsenal or they build their own. Yup I know a lot of people who have (very skilled craftsmen I may add). Get rid of all ammo, well I reload my own, most serious shooters do. Unless people change, nothing changes. Hence figure out how you will handle your personal security. Cops cannot be everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM

The Tucson shooter walked into a well-respected sporting goods store when he wanted to but the gun

He showed his ID and filled out the required forms for the FBI background check.

He was cleared and was allowed to purchase the gun and take it home.

About the aftermarket clips, they may be unnecessary but there is no place to draw the line. You may think 6-round clips are OK and 33-round clips are not, but what about the differece between 17-round and 19-round clips.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:12 AM

Interesting bit of history here. It brings to my mind a scene in which armed people in a crowd take care of a problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

For me a gun is a tool of last resort. Last resort means that a billion other choices should come first.

I think a gun is viewed as immediately accesible and neccesary to many people. IF a person ENJOYS their gun being seen, they are already what I call gun sick. IF they have multiple guns the odds of gun sickness grows. Like a drug if they plan ahead to be sure they have some on hand wherever they go, they are in stage five gun sickness.

Gun sickness knows no demographic or socio economic boundary.
IT is often something people catch after they have one.
I don't claim to know a percentage of people who are gun sick but it probably follows the same lines as other dependancy problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM

When you say "no line can be drawn, there is nothing you can do, thats the way it is", you are a failed human being, you are devoid of hope with no imagination or courage to change a single gun attitude. Your thinking is trapped in a box.

Today we can change the numbers of victims. Tommorow we could change a single mind. After that we could change attitudes.
While you can cage a devil for only a short time and evil will never go extinct, lines can be drawn, have been drawn and need to be made indelible.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM

That is the problem PDQ, When the 10 round law was in effect, nothing changed, in fact the violence only continued to climb. Would I get upset if they ban the 30 round clips and go back to the 10 round only. no ... but it won't make any difference in the violence.

When I taught marshal arts, I would tell the students, ya got three choices, you can run (the very best choice of all). You can stand there and be injured or killed, or you can stop them. I think two of the three are very good . The best thing, avoid being in a situation where the odds are trouble will find you. Who walks around a bad area of a city at night, most sane people don't. But in situations like this that should not have occurred, what do you do? that is what I want people to think about as this stuff keeps going on the rise lately


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM

"...Take away all the guns, wow, they go to Mexico and come back with an arsenal"

Are you sure? Ever been to Mexico with a gun?

A gringo can be sentenced to prison time in Mexico for having a few spent cartridges under the the seat of his pickup truck.

Private gun ownership in Mexico is completely banned as it is in Japan and many other countries. Only members of elite families, their security guards and the various police agencies have legal guns in Mexico.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

Don
it is illegal in my state to display a handgun, it MUST be concealed. Like I said in NY you don't get the license without a serious investigation into your background. In fact, you need three recommendations outside of the the FBI and approval of your local police. At least that is the way it is in my county. The permit is not issued by the local Sheriff alone, it is first approved by the county JUDGE and you need a reason that is legit .. not just, gee I am afraid. NY maybe overkill for many, makes sense to me however


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:39 AM

Lets agree to disagree, the sad fact is some defective person killed a lot of innocent people and sadly this seems to be more of the norm lately. We as a society are rolling down hill. WE are losing our sense of morals and decency and that of the value of life that our fathers and grandfathers cherished I think. It all starts in the home and how people raise their kids and what values they assign. Fix that and maybe less of this occurs


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:41 AM

btw

My prediction that this terrible and expected tragedy is creating a deeper divide in this small community and the nation at large is coming true.

All the FOX and shock radio people are doubling down and are yelling that liberals want conservatives dead. Media liberals are saying that conservatives are more strident than ever.

At least all the people at home who have a conscience, have reflected and can share a sense of grief and see the sign ahead is both a reminder and a warning of the future ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM

I sound terrible when I read my words but all I am trying to say is good people need to think about this stuff. At least get some exercise by taking a marshal arts course, what does that hurt. At least you have some sense that should trouble find you maybe you can do something about it. I know I am too close because of my background, but learning stuff doesn't make a bad person. Heck my family is a family of marksmen and blackbelts and have been for generations. No one cares for for others more than my family or does more of others. Learning to be cautious and spotting potential situations doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you a smart person. Learning to defend yourself should the unthinkable occur also doesn't hurt anything. Our society is losing its grip lately for many reasons. We need to change as a people ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM

All the FOX and shock radio people are doubling down and are yelling that liberals want conservatives dead.

HUH???

Can't really blame the shit-spouters, I suppose- that's how they make their money.

However, anyone that would BELIEVE that shit should be incarcerated.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:05 PM

Here's a novel thought: Human beings are strange. We very often do not do the *best* thing, we go with a reaction that, on hindsight, escalates rather than eliminates a problem.

I keep thinking of an incident a couple of months ago in this apartment house I manage. If the 'perpertrator' had done the best thing, the outcome would have been far different.

A tenant here wanted to eject a visitor of his and the visitor refused to leave. Rather than call on neighboring tenants to help or to call the police he elected to beat the visitor into a bloody mess that made the man literally unrecognizable.

End result: the visitor was taken to hospital by ambulance, the perp was taken to jail where he was charged with felony assault (later reduced to a misdemeanor). He now has a record, he lost his tenancy here even though he pleaded abjectly for another chance (As I told him on the telephone, no way would I want to live next to a man who 'loses it' that bad, and if he didn't lose it, he's even more dangerous).

Mind you, the visitor is a known bad ass, a guy with a long history of violence. As the police told me, This time he was a victim but he is often the perpertrator.

My (longwinded) point is that if a gun had been present, there is little doubt in my mind that it would have been used.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

That is a good argument Ebbie my friend for my reasonable comment. A reasonable man or woman would call the police, I would you would, who the heck wants to engage in such action. You can only use the amount of force needed to thwart off an attack. You cannot start the attack, provoke it or anything else. The guy deserved to be in jail. He is part of the problem. I had a guy come to my home ranting about why his daughter wasn't picked as a cheerleader (my wife is the coach) He was aggressive, violent and wanted a confrontation. I asked him to leave he wouldn't. I went in and called the police. Now could I have engaged him with all the years of training ... yea .. why would I want to do that ... a reasonable person does not go looking for such nor engages in stuff like that but walks away. All the time he was ranting at me, I was watching his hands. I didn't heated. My thought was, I really do not want to hurt this man. Talking was going to do no good. The police finally cooled him down. I did not press charges.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:36 PM

Ebbie's link raises a very important point.

Even with specific military training, friendly fire casualties have plagued every armed conflict.

War/Campaign: Percent Casualties (U.S. Military only)*
World War II: 21%
Korea: 18%
Vietnam: 39%
Persian Gulf: 52%
Panama: .08%
Haiti: 0%
Iraq: 41%
Afghanistan: 13%

(http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/ff/ff.htm)

I suspect that with lesser-trained civilians, in a non-war-zone setting, gun battles would involve much much higher rates of innocent casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

Sorry, Ol'ster but if the only guns out there were rifles and shotguns there would indeed be one heck of a lot less murders because they are conspicuously visible... Had this shooter taken a shotgun to that Safeway there wouldn't 6 people dead...

BTW, handguns were rare when the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution... They were used for dueling and not much else...

BTW, Part 2... The Founding Fathers also provided us with a Constitution that could be amended as our country grew and evolved...

BTW, Part 3... If the only way to bring sanity into the mix is to amend it again then so be it if it brings sane gun regulations...

Sane gun regulations:

1. Anyone wanting to own a gun should have to first go thru a certified gun safety course...

2. Anyone wanting to own a gun should have to also prove that they can handle it, aim it and hit a specfied target...

3. Semi-automatics should be for law enforcement only...

4. Automatics should be illegal with the exception of the military... Period...

5. A waiting period sufficient to allow the ATF to conduct a full background check should be in place before the purchaser can take delivery of a gun...

6. All guns should be registered and have ballistic fingerprints on file...

7. No one, other that law enforcement, should be allowed to carry a gun of any kind into any public areas, including resturants and bars, with the exception of shooting ranges...

And that's just for starters...

I mean, let's get real here... There is a reason that 30,000 people are killed every year with guns... 9 guns for every 10 people??? Do the math...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM

But Bobster we already have that in NY state. You can't own a handgun you have to register it and first have a permit from a judge. Most people cannot get one. Hence most people do not have one legally. It is so hard to get and expensive. But our rate of handgun violence keeps going up. I complete agree on the sensible laws .. I just don't think from living in this state it makes much difference is all


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:15 PM

and bobster, a sawed off shotgun, remove the plug, you now have 5 rounds .. each round has 9 .38 cal pellets .. that is 45 rounds into the crowd going straight through at close range .. it would have been far worse my friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM

for many year, no firearm of any type was allowed in Washington DC. I know it has recently been challenged in the court so I do not know the current law. However, the murder rate from gun violence in Washington DC is appalling. No ban of any type works


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:39 PM

Congresswoman Giffords owned a 9 mm Glock and said she was a pretty good shot.
New York Times, Nov. 11.

Doesn't help politicians who have to rub shoulders with the public, but useful to discourage home invaders, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM

I just don't think from living in this state [NY]it makes much difference is all

But it WOULD make a difference, Oldster, if guns weren't freely available in the Jackass States to be brought into NY.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM

6. All guns should be registered and have ballistic fingerprints on file...

Bobert, the NRA has long and hard regarding this.

They are against it.

They have not won entirely yet.

What they argued for and got was denying any national data base for gun ownership and registration.

Instead what we are left with are several warehouse locations in which all records are pieces of papers filed in boxes.


The NRA will settle for partial "victories" when they seek total privacty of ownership and total public opness whenit comes to guns sales, gun fairs and gun enhancements.

Fingerprints? having fingerprints is a dream.

This is all part of the no regulation, no goverment interference mantra in which the cry of liberty is still heard by more people than the cries of the victims and family survivors.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM

Old dude no need to apologize your suggestion is not far out or unreasonable. There is a trade off though.

Some say if you give attention to the evangelists like Glen Beck you are giving him power. Similarly if you carry guns you are giving attention to the power/problems of a gun society.

The trade off is an omniperesent sense of danger vs. peace of mind.
such as;
is the safety on? is it locked up? is it loaded, is it jamming? Where the F**k is it!, I don;t think a kid could find it here, Should I go for it?! Hmmm they look dangerous, WHAT WAS THAT!!!!?...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, Ol'ster... We have too many different laws because we leave it up to the states... If we had one set of laws that governed the entire country then we would see the changes...

Come to Richmond, Va. for one of the dozens of guns shows that are held every year in that city... All you have to do is watch what happens... It is the wild west... If I want an AK 47 and a book to tell me out to turn it into fully automatic all I need is the cash... Mayor Bloomberg has asked Virginia's governor to enact sane gun laws and Virginia's governor has said "Screw you", we like it this way down here... The guns being used to kill people in New York come from Virginia, Ol'ster... This ain't just my opinion... They keep stats on this and Virginia not only arms New York thugs but is also arming the gangs in Mexico...

That's the problem with no uniform laws...

Also, New York, if I understand it does not require gun safety certification, proof of proficiency, ballistic fingerprinting... It also permits semi automatics... And, if I am not mistaken it allows people to take their guns out into the general public...

Here in Virgina we have these cowboys who love to strap on their heat and then all march into a public restaurant in mass to show how fucking brave they are and scare the hell out everyone, including children... I've seen people actually ask for their checks before even finishing their meals when these boorish assholes show up... I haven't done that but I will tell ya' that it will ruin a meal...

No, we do need sane gun regs and just to say they won't work is not correct... How do we know what won't work until we try it... I mean, sanity is all we are looking for here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bettynh
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM

Jon Stewart's comments


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM

No bobster, absolutely the opposite in NY. You have to submit your hangun safety course certification with your application. You are fingerprinted, need three references, approval by the local police, the county sheriff and the Judge. You cannot carry the firearm in public unless you have a conceal carry permit like me. That is even harder to get then one for target and hunting ... They do a mental health check and FBI check. If that all comes back clean, then it is up to the judge to decide. Each handgun is registered and the legal weapon is placed on your permit. If you are stopped, the police take your weapon and match the weapon with what is on your permit. If you have one that is not on that permit you will be arrested for an illegal firearm. Very tough laws in NY .. yet our violence from these damn things keeps going up


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM

In NY you can only carry in public if you have the conceal version of the permit. Not easy to get (I have one) interesting enough NY does not recognize any other states permits because NY is so strict. I am licensed in 26 states but that is because I also have one from PA and Florida. So in those states you get a Florida permit (very easy to get by the way) and you carry all over many other states. That is why we need a federal permit law. But of course none of this applies to the criminal.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM

Just reading it. My county requires safety certification. I am unsure about a couple other counties. Good catch... God I hope they do, that is insane if they don't. I also see now NY does recognize a few other states ... that was never the case 10 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM

Greg in your county did you have to supply safety training?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM

Then I can assume, Ol'ster, that the reason there are so many unregistered guns in New York is because of states like Virginia which require only cash???

If so, then that's exactly what I am talkin' about here...

Sane laws that are uniform... Sounds like New York has sane laws... What good is it doin' ya' if yer ex-con-psycho-neihgbor can come down here with cash, and nothin' more, and bring home an AK47 and a book on how to make it fire automatically???

This is what people are talkin' about when they talk about sane gun control... Where's the control??? Well, there really isn't any, is there???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM

There isn't Bob, so correct ... You bet the bad guys go to your state, go to a gun show, come back with an arsenal .. we gotta get rid of that gun show crap .. it is indeed insanity ... that is exactly where the nut cases get them from. The gangs love the gun show AK-47's in your state. Come back here, make them fully auto .. along with the books on building suppressors to deaden the sound etc ... nuts it is all nuts we need a national law for sure. I am with you there


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:07 PM

another interesting thing Bob. I went into walmart and bought some .40 cal rounds for my glock. Didn't have time to reload. The first thing the clerk said was "show me your handgun permit" I actually thanked the guy .. But when they come back from your state with an arsenal and 10,000 rounds ... no one can police that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:10 PM

Regrettably, it is not only gun shows. I was at a yard sale in Maine not too long ago and there were a couple of rifles available, no questions asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM

local auctions also ebarn. It is a felony for a convicted criminal to own any firearm but there is no law anywhere that states the private sale of a shotgun or rifle requires background checks ... so if you are a criminal you sure can look at the swap sheet in the paper and buy a deer rifle or shotgun ... not handgun in this state, but in many states yes you can indeed do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Greg in your county did you have to supply safety training?

Didn't when I was licensed 30 years ago but you do now.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:32 PM

Bobert can you forward me a link to your music?

denise_whittle@yahoo.co.uk


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM

Wow NY is strict.

Between Virginia and SC, funs are as easy as fireworks, but you do need a bear license if you are going to shoot bear in Virginia.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM

Donuel "This is what I expect from Glen Beck today." Talk about setting up a Strawman! And I notice that others have already run with it as if he has already uttered what you have imagined. Could this be what is wrong with much of the discourse in this country?

Mousethief, Huh? Man, I agree with you! Fund it! Worthwhile programs are always worth the funding. It would be a true benefit to society.

AS for Palin's spin, I am disappointed that she and her company decided to try and spin it instead of owning it. They should bar her from the "No Spin Zone" for that one. Her original approach probably works fine in Alaska and as I said, it's a common figure of speech which could been seen as a sports allusion as in target shooting. For her to try and spin it at this late date smacks of guilt and cover-up and for what? She is light-weight and if she ever had any political asperations beyond Alaska, that's over. Good bye Sarah.

And as for digging up the Democrats' use of targeting symbols someone above has already demonstrated some above. Common knowledge and a big "So-what?" It is part of the language. Personally, I like "Ballots, not Bullets"!

I would not think of answering Sharon Angle's most unfortunate statement. She shot herself in the foot with that one, you might say. It demonstrates not even a basic understanding of what this great country is all about, supremacy of the law and democratic representation which supercedes any individual's viewpoint.

Genie, I hope your ignorance of guns is not indicative of your overall fund of information. Apparently you did not read some of the others' explanations of what constitutes a fully automatic weapon or a "macnine gun". I have a little expertise in the area and you do not. Hint, there is not such thing as a 30 round chamber. Glock 19s come in cal. .22, 9mm, cal. 40 S&W (of which I own one) and .45ACP. 30 round clips are made for these weapons but they are not legal in my state (10 round only, with certain exceptions) and many other states also. A 30 round clip would extend below the grip four or five inches and would all but deny any concealability. Were is truly a "machine pistol" it would be virtually uncontrollable after the first round or two. It is difficult to keep an automatic longarm on target as the recoil makes it want to climb. BTW, he fired 20 rounds according to the news report I heard which would jibe with the NATO version (Beretta) whic holds 19 rounds in the clip and one in the chamber. There are many other points wrong with your argument but as I said in the first place, it is only incidental to the event and dead is dead. If he had thrown a bomb it would have been just as tragic. THE GUY WAS A NUTCASE! He would have found the means to carry out his insane deed regardless of law or avilable means. We need to advance the discussion and move off this point.

Bobert, I'm a California native and lived through the Left's big push to free those being illegally held in mental facilities back in the day. They argued that it was just a means of extending a prison sentence indefinitely. And were they ever surprised when Gov. Reagan agreed with them. I guess they didn't realise that it was going to save the state a ton of money to free those poor unfortunate souls. You might find it odd but I too, was involved in social work or a sort in the 80's myself in SF and Sausalito and had much interaction with folks on the street who had been turned out of the mental institutions. Let's not rewrite history. I say shame on both side for making a political football of these impaired folks and their families and friends. I know personally of two family members in one community who died at the hands of a son who was released.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM

It was required Greg in my county 25 years ago to provide the gun safety certification. My PA and FL permit .. nope


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:56 PM

Yer right, Slag...

Until I found myself bombarded with new clients that were being released form Eastern State Hospital (Petersburg, Va.)I had really never given institutionalization any thought... It was off the radar screen for social workers everywhere and then we had this "staff meeting" where we were told about the changes and, unfortunately, not much more... None of us were prepared for it... Our entire agency was not prepared... It was an informational meeting but lacked a lot in specifics... Well, we did the best we could... I remember going to Petersburg in the "welfare car" and bringing 5 new clients back at a time... That was hard... I was having to find housing fir them and getting them into adult day care and hooked up with their out-patient mental health people and meds and food and, and, and...

I mean, 5 at a time!!! My case load grew from 40 clients to 80 in a matter of 2 months... All of us were running ragged... Plus, alot of rooming houses didn't want them... Or didn't want that many of them... One of my best rooming house providers called me about a month into this mess and told me to get all of them out...

Now to make things worse, which BTW any social worker who was there at the time will back up, the federal funds thru Title XX were being reduced?!?!?!?... I mean, those were the funds that we used to buy stuff like bus passes and adult day care and home health and, and, and...

Talk about a nightmare!!!

But what I saw were lots of social workers who just gave the heck up... Janie can tell you about this... She saw it... Yeah, they pushed the paper and quit doing "field work" where you go out and do stuff... They sat in their offices and pulled the blankets over their heads... That still exists today...

And then we wonder why stuff like this shooting happens???? Duhhhhhh...

And the TV says that it's easy to get messed up people evaluated by the mental health people... That is mythology... It is almost impossible... I, as a social worker working with messed up people, would have to lie to get a magistrate to issue a "green warrant" 'cause unless there was some nut holding a gun to his or someone elses head it was impossible to get green warrants...

Was deinstitutionalism good??? Probably in some cases... But, in hindsight, it reminded me of the the last day of the Vietnam War with folks tryin' to get on that last helicopter out... It was chaos!!! And it has left some very deep and serious scars on my soul for the things I, and my clients, went thru... It was a war that no one, other than folks in the field, knew about...

Maybe Janie will add her thoughts... For me??? I've said about all I want to say... It was a very hurtful experience and I ended up not only burned out but in a mental hospital myself... No, let me add that it was bad policy based on trying to cut government expenses while the DoD got everything they wanted...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM

C'mon. Bobert!

Government is the PROBLEM!! We gotta cut funding across the board. Nobody needs "nanny government" services, buncha wimps.

They're still singin' the same tune today- only louder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:20 PM

Slag, in your focus on the details of gun mechanics, you miss the point. Whether a Glock has a "30-round chamber" or is simply capable of using "clips" that can hold 30 rounds (or more), the result is the same:
Loughner used a hand gun that was capable of his shooting 30 (actually 31) bullets before stopping to reload.

Had the limit of the weapon been, say, 10 rounds before having to reload, it's unlikely he would have hit more 6 to 7 people, instead of 20.

Let's not lose the forest in the trees.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM

NH's motto is "Live free or die," not "Live free or kill," much less "Live free or murder."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:28 PM

Live free or shoot

it has a talk radio feel to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM

A Glock 18 can have a 293 clip

Wanna see the you tube of it firing?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:48 PM

I'd say, "Glock this" but I think that would make it into to ***gun-cyber-world*** and some 90+IQr would find me and mess me up...

Meanwhile, good news on the medical front fir the Congresswoman, heh??? I mean, that is better than anything any of us have to say...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:50 PM

And for the congresswoman...

...300!!!

B~


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