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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

Desert Dancer 13 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,olddude who is out of town today 13 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 11 - 02:40 PM
Wesley S 13 Jan 11 - 11:51 AM
EBarnacle 13 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 13 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 11 - 12:35 AM
EBarnacle 13 Jan 11 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jan 11 - 11:11 PM
Donuel 12 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jan 11 - 07:43 PM
Stringsinger 12 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM
olddude 12 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM
olddude 12 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM
Slag 12 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM
Slag 12 Jan 11 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM
Ebbie 12 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM
Donuel 12 Jan 11 - 12:33 AM
Ron Davies 12 Jan 11 - 12:28 AM
Donuel 12 Jan 11 - 12:16 AM
EBarnacle 11 Jan 11 - 11:28 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 10:50 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 10:48 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 10:28 PM
Genie 11 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM
Genie 11 Jan 11 - 09:20 PM
Greg F. 11 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 07:56 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM
Slag 11 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 11 Jan 11 - 06:32 PM
Greg F. 11 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM
EBarnacle 11 Jan 11 - 03:10 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 03:07 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM
olddude 11 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM
Bettynh 11 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM

Yes, physical violence was once more common, including in the halls of government. Here's a NYT OpEd from this week, by a Yale historian, describing the shootings, canings, fisticuffs, etc.. More things than that that have changed since the Civil War, as they should. Idealizing the past is a mistake, especially in discussions of government. The challenge is to continue to move forward in a positive way.

I'm curious what you think of Nicholas Kristoff's suggestions today about gun regulation, olddude? --

>> • Limit gun purchases to one per month per person, to reduce gun trafficking. And just as the government has cracked down on retailers who sell cigarettes to minors, get tough on gun dealers who sell to traffickers.

• Push for more gun safes, and make serial numbers harder to erase.

• Improve background checks and follow Canada in requiring a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun. And ban oversize magazines, such as the 33-bullet magazine allegedly used in Tucson. If the shooter had had to reload after firing 10 bullets, he might have been tackled earlier. And invest in new technologies such as "smart guns," which can be fired only when near a separate wristband or after a fingerprint scan.

We can also learn from Australia, which in 1996 banned assault weapons and began buying back 650,000 of them. The impact is controversial and has sometimes been distorted. But the Journal of Public Health Policy notes that after the ban, the firearm suicide rate dropped by half in Australia over the next seven years, and the firearm homicide rate was almost halved. <<

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,olddude who is out of town today
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM

I was watching a show on the history channel. If we think the political rambling and hate words is bad today. In Lincoln's time they would argue, roll up their sleeves and go outside and fist fight. One account a friend of Lincoln was getting clobbered so yup, he left the platform rolled up his sleeves and went at it .. Now I am not saying they should not tone it down. Heck yes they should, but it was even worse in the past history. Then again, Abe got shot also


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 02:40 PM

...and Guild no longer makes their phosphor bronze..
Drag!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:51 AM

I've also posted this in the gun laws thread too.

From MSN:


Glock Pistol Sales Surge in Aftermath of Arizona Shootings
January 12, 2011 12:01 AM ET
By Michael Riley

Greg Wolff, the owner of two Arizona gun shops, told his manager to get ready for a stampede of new customers after a Glock-wielding gunman killed six people at a Tucson shopping center on Jan. 8.

Wolff was right. Instead of hurting sales, the massacre had the $499 semi-automatic pistols -- popular with police, sport shooters and gangsters -- flying out the doors of his Glockmeister stores in Mesa and Phoenix.

"We're at double our volume over what we usually do," Wolff said two days after the shooting spree that also left 14 wounded, including Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who remains in critical condition.

A national debate over weaknesses in state and federal gun laws stirred by the shooting has stoked fears among gun buyers that stiffer restrictions may be coming from Congress, gun dealers say. The result is that a deadly demonstration of the weapon's effectiveness has also fired up sales of handguns in Arizona and other states, according to federal law enforcement data.

"When something like this happens people get worried that the government is going to ban stuff," Wolff said.

Arizona gun dealers say that among the biggest sellers in the past few days is the Glock 19 made by privately held Glock GmbH, based in Deutsch-Wagram, Austria, the model used in the shootings.

Sales Jump

One-day sales of handguns in Arizona jumped 60 percent to 263 on Jan. 10 compared with 164 the corresponding Monday a year ago, the second-biggest increase of any state in the country, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM

Freedland's article says what I have been thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM

A glowing assessment of Obama's speech in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:35 AM

The more you feed it, the more it grows!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:08 AM

Donuel, Even if Palin passively accepted her followers screaming hate, even if she had not encouraged them, her denial that she encouraged her followers to violent action is ingenuous. It is possible that, for the sake of popularity with her voters, she allowed the to scream and rage in murderous ways. If she were truly leading them away from violence, she would reasonably have said something simple, like "These threats of violence are not in the true spirit of American political discourse."

Of course, she or her followers may have had problems with the big words.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 11:11 PM

Stringsinger: "It should be mentioned that this type of incident occurs every day in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Mexico too!

GfS


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Subject: Gabby opened her eyes
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM

If she can open her eyes, well then perhaps we all can.
At the end of these 5 sad days I believe I have opened my eyes. Certainly there was no one more partisan than I for saying within minutes of the shooting that the Repbulican shock and hate campaigns were the direct cause of this slaughter.

I was wrong. My cries came from having a 10 year old psychic wound ripped open. All the collected insults to sensibility of contentious words and even worse from a hateful silence, the kind of silence that came from Sarah Palin when people at her rallies said "Hang Obama" or "KILL'EM"...and she stood silent. The pain of having to to defend against a tide of people who wanted to elevate torture as a collective good. All of the real and imagined assaults on sense and sensibility all came flooding down and blamed BEck and talk radio for the rampage. It was not the reason. My partisanship and personal pain blinded me for a time.

Wile I can not go as far as Gov. Brewer and claim the reason why will be an eternal mystery, at least I can let go of a laser thin focus of blaming a roomgul of propoganda preachers.

Though my physical eyes are fading I need to see with better eyes and see through the walls, divisions, lies and partitions in my community, nation and the world to do what can be done for greater understanding and fellowship.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:43 PM

Alberta has held the line on funding mental treatments and institutions; with increasing population, more disturbed people are on the street.
The same is true of many states.
Olddude's advice, be aware, should be heeded.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM

It should be mentioned that this type of incident occurs every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM

If you take nothing away from this thread other than, be aware. That would be a good thing. When you are at a shopping mall, the last thing on your mind is running into some maniac with a gun or a knife. However, in this day and age, in this society, you actually do have to think about it, look around and know that in that sea of people some percent of them are disturbed. Then what would you do if the unthinkable occurs. That is a smart thing. It changes behavior not in a bad way, but in a good way. Maybe I won't walk by that row of hedges where the street light is out ... those types of things, a change in normal thinking and behavior to avoid it the best you can. I use to tell people when you are approached by someone you don't know, if you don't feel comfortable then ignore and walk away. It is their feelings vs your safety ... this stuff will continue sadly


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM

Palin responds with accusations of 'Blood Libel'


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM

Well Ron if nothing else, serious training before one can own a semi auto. That I would agree to. And the gun did jam according to the news. The gun is not designed to hold a 30 round magazine. The spring inside the extended aftermarket clip malfunctioned (thank God). And yes the political rambling on the networks is odorous to say the least. A lot of good people died including a young girl for no reason at all. Now disturbed people do things for reasons the clear minds cannot comprehend. For their 15 minutes of fame, because of depression, because of deep routed hate. Who the heck knows. All I know is it keeps happening more and more lately, and sadly it will continue I think. Hate bantering between parties does not push a clear minded person into doing such things. However, it doesn't help the borderline wack job to think clear either as Bob said. I have no solutions, only questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM

Whoa, I watched that again and it appears that it did jam. That slide did not lock back after the last round, hence his sheepish grin.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:52 AM

Well, I was wondering where the heck you were GGfS.Thank goodness you have remained so calm.

Donuel, you saw the rig that guy had in order to keep the piece steady: Stock and he used the clip as a grip. Glocks just don't jam or apparently melt either. I had never seen a double drum set up like that. It was impressive. I really wanted to see whatever he was shooting at too. Obviously this had to take place on some other country's soil as the whole thing would be slightly felonious here in the states.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM

OK, OK..Calm down!!!...First of all, I wasn't going to post at all about this, being as we are all being inundated 'ad nauseum' with politicized accounts of this story....and at this point, who in the hell is going to take common sense into account??
First of all, that dumb-shit sheriff should shut his fat stupid mouth about his OPINION, when the suspect hasn't said shit! It is completely stupid, beyond belief, that this moron, the sheriff, is saying all the stuff he is, and possibly jeopardizing the case against the shooter!!!..he is just speculating, as to a motive, and tainting any jury pool!!!!! The defense will argue that this idiot won't be able to get a fair trial, if everybody forms an OPINION!..RIGHT??
For all we know, being as Giffords just asked for more federal aid for the border, that this guy could have connections for a drug cartel, on this side, of the border! For all we know, he might have had a 'jones' for her, and has been stalking her. YOU DON'T know, as any of us DON'T KNOW..and now the national discussion is only restricted to political blathering!!..and YES, he MIGHT just be a crazy lunatic, with a death wish..WHO KNOWS??? To say he is NOT 'just a loony' is just as stupid, too. Should he be a completely 'sane' mass murderer?????
In any event, the far left and far right are working overtime, to cast blame, or dodge it..and EVERYBODY, into that discussion is just furthering the problem!!
Case in point: Alleged Muslim terrorists fly planes into the twin towers..the left wants them tried as civilians, the right, military tribunals. The left doesn't even want them labeled as 'terrorists'...BUT, they are making political hay over this 'jerk-off' in Arizona! ..as if he is any more or less of a murderer than the 'misguided' religious zealots who crashed planes, into buildings in New York! This is DUMB, beyond rational thinking!!!
Sure, I think he did it, BUT NOBODY KNOWS for sure what twisted screw he has, or really WHY he did it!!..So stop acting like a bunch of vigilantes in a lynch mob, pointing fingers at EVERYONE who you politically disagree with!!!..on either side!!!..or you will ALL share in his lunacy!
The courts are the place for the story to come out. Who knows, we all might learn more, before this is over with..and I'm sure we will..IF he can get a fair trial!
He may have acted alone without help from 'talk radio' of he might have been influenced. Shit, the whole country is berserk over political wrangling..to the point, that you might just MISS the TRUTH!!
..and you can bet your bottom dollar, that the defense, is going to, first request to move the trial, and then argue for a dismissal, on the grounds that he can't get a fair trial!!...only the innocent victims who were killed, would then be the prosecution's strongest case...(which in my humble opinion, would be strong enough!)..in which case, he might just clam up, and we might never know the real reasons WHY!!
Personally, I think the case is air tight against him. That being said, let's not provoke each other to share his deranged frame of mind, out of finding reasons to hate one another over it!! Is this something we really want to partake of??? Let us NOT share in his, hate, political extremism (if that was all that was behind it)or lack of sanity!!!

Thank You,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM

A concern to me is the 18 other names on the Palin map.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:33 AM

More importantly, a poll claims 2/3s of Americans believe the killer was merely a deranged lone gunman without any political affiliation, intent or knowledge.

HE TARGETTED A CONGRESSWOMAN FOR 3 YEARS
HE WENT TO EVENTS SEVERAL TIMES.

How can anyone think that he lived in a vacuum and never heard the radio, never watched a FOX channel, never surfed the internet and encountered anti goverment sites, blogs, chat rooms or you tubes.

Was he really a bubble boy deaf dumb and blind.
Where do you think he got the idea for his "reading list?


It is highly important for FOX news and all right wing media to paint this man as a complete psychotic who is an extreme liberal yet has no political ties orinterests

do you not see the absurdity in that?
Please think again if you do

Many here have fallen for it. Just because he is deranged does not mean he has not been influenced by the world in which he lives.


IF Two thirds of us really believe that, the hateful race baiting name calling propogandists are actually loving angels from heaven and have proved themselves innocent of ever inciting anyone to say or do anything.

and in turn there is no need to even think about making new gun laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:28 AM

So, trying to read between the lines, it seems we may possibly in fact all agree that no private citizen needs to own a semi-automatic pistol. If not, let's have the clear reasons why.


I'm trying to be realistic, if at all possible--therefore not even trying to ban normal citizens from owning handguns--just semi-automatic handguns.



We might even want to suggest that rifles not be restricted in public--if the people of Arizona, for instance, in their infinite wisdom, choose this approach-- but handguns cannot be brought to political events.   Since it doesn't appear that the shooter here actually had a death wish --"my assassination" did not seem to apply to himself--it seems reasonable that if he had seen rifles at this event, he would not have opened fire--since the end would be predictable.

As a deterrent, rifles would probably work. Another argument against concealed handguns--which would not work as a deterrent.

Of course political figures might well decide that rather than have the event look--and possibly act-- like an armed camp, the "town meetings" etc. would be cancelled.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:16 AM

Barnacle, you did not watch the entire video.

The last clip he uses actually has 293 bullets !

it is shaped like two cyliders instead of a long rectangle.

Frankly I think he was very lucky to not have a jam or worse*.


*a kaboom as old dude says.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:28 PM

OK, while it's an extended clip he is reloading, he is not shooting clips of 300 bullets. He is reloading [often clumsily] to get off about 300 shots as quickly as he can.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM

I like my glock thank you, but it is not something for reloads unless you know what you are doing. The make the bore just a tad bigger to feed hollow points freely, but that leads to kabooms. A kaboom is a term when the gun blows up. Factory loads are normally always safe but unless you have exact loading skills (I do cause I shoot a lot) not a good idea in that make of gun.

Likewise the trigger is the safety, there is no external safety. It leads to a faster target acquisition but in a hurry with sloppy technique you can put a new dimple in your own arse drawing it out of the holster. Not a good gun at all for a novice.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:50 PM

And for the congresswoman...

...300!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:48 PM

I'd say, "Glock this" but I think that would make it into to ***gun-cyber-world*** and some 90+IQr would find me and mess me up...

Meanwhile, good news on the medical front fir the Congresswoman, heh??? I mean, that is better than anything any of us have to say...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM

A Glock 18 can have a 293 clip

Wanna see the you tube of it firing?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:28 PM

Live free or shoot

it has a talk radio feel to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM

NH's motto is "Live free or die," not "Live free or kill," much less "Live free or murder."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:20 PM

Slag, in your focus on the details of gun mechanics, you miss the point. Whether a Glock has a "30-round chamber" or is simply capable of using "clips" that can hold 30 rounds (or more), the result is the same:
Loughner used a hand gun that was capable of his shooting 30 (actually 31) bullets before stopping to reload.

Had the limit of the weapon been, say, 10 rounds before having to reload, it's unlikely he would have hit more 6 to 7 people, instead of 20.

Let's not lose the forest in the trees.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM

C'mon. Bobert!

Government is the PROBLEM!! We gotta cut funding across the board. Nobody needs "nanny government" services, buncha wimps.

They're still singin' the same tune today- only louder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:56 PM

Yer right, Slag...

Until I found myself bombarded with new clients that were being released form Eastern State Hospital (Petersburg, Va.)I had really never given institutionalization any thought... It was off the radar screen for social workers everywhere and then we had this "staff meeting" where we were told about the changes and, unfortunately, not much more... None of us were prepared for it... Our entire agency was not prepared... It was an informational meeting but lacked a lot in specifics... Well, we did the best we could... I remember going to Petersburg in the "welfare car" and bringing 5 new clients back at a time... That was hard... I was having to find housing fir them and getting them into adult day care and hooked up with their out-patient mental health people and meds and food and, and, and...

I mean, 5 at a time!!! My case load grew from 40 clients to 80 in a matter of 2 months... All of us were running ragged... Plus, alot of rooming houses didn't want them... Or didn't want that many of them... One of my best rooming house providers called me about a month into this mess and told me to get all of them out...

Now to make things worse, which BTW any social worker who was there at the time will back up, the federal funds thru Title XX were being reduced?!?!?!?... I mean, those were the funds that we used to buy stuff like bus passes and adult day care and home health and, and, and...

Talk about a nightmare!!!

But what I saw were lots of social workers who just gave the heck up... Janie can tell you about this... She saw it... Yeah, they pushed the paper and quit doing "field work" where you go out and do stuff... They sat in their offices and pulled the blankets over their heads... That still exists today...

And then we wonder why stuff like this shooting happens???? Duhhhhhh...

And the TV says that it's easy to get messed up people evaluated by the mental health people... That is mythology... It is almost impossible... I, as a social worker working with messed up people, would have to lie to get a magistrate to issue a "green warrant" 'cause unless there was some nut holding a gun to his or someone elses head it was impossible to get green warrants...

Was deinstitutionalism good??? Probably in some cases... But, in hindsight, it reminded me of the the last day of the Vietnam War with folks tryin' to get on that last helicopter out... It was chaos!!! And it has left some very deep and serious scars on my soul for the things I, and my clients, went thru... It was a war that no one, other than folks in the field, knew about...

Maybe Janie will add her thoughts... For me??? I've said about all I want to say... It was a very hurtful experience and I ended up not only burned out but in a mental hospital myself... No, let me add that it was bad policy based on trying to cut government expenses while the DoD got everything they wanted...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM

It was required Greg in my county 25 years ago to provide the gun safety certification. My PA and FL permit .. nope


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM

Donuel "This is what I expect from Glen Beck today." Talk about setting up a Strawman! And I notice that others have already run with it as if he has already uttered what you have imagined. Could this be what is wrong with much of the discourse in this country?

Mousethief, Huh? Man, I agree with you! Fund it! Worthwhile programs are always worth the funding. It would be a true benefit to society.

AS for Palin's spin, I am disappointed that she and her company decided to try and spin it instead of owning it. They should bar her from the "No Spin Zone" for that one. Her original approach probably works fine in Alaska and as I said, it's a common figure of speech which could been seen as a sports allusion as in target shooting. For her to try and spin it at this late date smacks of guilt and cover-up and for what? She is light-weight and if she ever had any political asperations beyond Alaska, that's over. Good bye Sarah.

And as for digging up the Democrats' use of targeting symbols someone above has already demonstrated some above. Common knowledge and a big "So-what?" It is part of the language. Personally, I like "Ballots, not Bullets"!

I would not think of answering Sharon Angle's most unfortunate statement. She shot herself in the foot with that one, you might say. It demonstrates not even a basic understanding of what this great country is all about, supremacy of the law and democratic representation which supercedes any individual's viewpoint.

Genie, I hope your ignorance of guns is not indicative of your overall fund of information. Apparently you did not read some of the others' explanations of what constitutes a fully automatic weapon or a "macnine gun". I have a little expertise in the area and you do not. Hint, there is not such thing as a 30 round chamber. Glock 19s come in cal. .22, 9mm, cal. 40 S&W (of which I own one) and .45ACP. 30 round clips are made for these weapons but they are not legal in my state (10 round only, with certain exceptions) and many other states also. A 30 round clip would extend below the grip four or five inches and would all but deny any concealability. Were is truly a "machine pistol" it would be virtually uncontrollable after the first round or two. It is difficult to keep an automatic longarm on target as the recoil makes it want to climb. BTW, he fired 20 rounds according to the news report I heard which would jibe with the NATO version (Beretta) whic holds 19 rounds in the clip and one in the chamber. There are many other points wrong with your argument but as I said in the first place, it is only incidental to the event and dead is dead. If he had thrown a bomb it would have been just as tragic. THE GUY WAS A NUTCASE! He would have found the means to carry out his insane deed regardless of law or avilable means. We need to advance the discussion and move off this point.

Bobert, I'm a California native and lived through the Left's big push to free those being illegally held in mental facilities back in the day. They argued that it was just a means of extending a prison sentence indefinitely. And were they ever surprised when Gov. Reagan agreed with them. I guess they didn't realise that it was going to save the state a ton of money to free those poor unfortunate souls. You might find it odd but I too, was involved in social work or a sort in the 80's myself in SF and Sausalito and had much interaction with folks on the street who had been turned out of the mental institutions. Let's not rewrite history. I say shame on both side for making a political football of these impaired folks and their families and friends. I know personally of two family members in one community who died at the hands of a son who was released.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM

Wow NY is strict.

Between Virginia and SC, funs are as easy as fireworks, but you do need a bear license if you are going to shoot bear in Virginia.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:32 PM

Bobert can you forward me a link to your music?

denise_whittle@yahoo.co.uk


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Greg in your county did you have to supply safety training?

Didn't when I was licensed 30 years ago but you do now.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM

local auctions also ebarn. It is a felony for a convicted criminal to own any firearm but there is no law anywhere that states the private sale of a shotgun or rifle requires background checks ... so if you are a criminal you sure can look at the swap sheet in the paper and buy a deer rifle or shotgun ... not handgun in this state, but in many states yes you can indeed do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:10 PM

Regrettably, it is not only gun shows. I was at a yard sale in Maine not too long ago and there were a couple of rifles available, no questions asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:07 PM

another interesting thing Bob. I went into walmart and bought some .40 cal rounds for my glock. Didn't have time to reload. The first thing the clerk said was "show me your handgun permit" I actually thanked the guy .. But when they come back from your state with an arsenal and 10,000 rounds ... no one can police that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM

There isn't Bob, so correct ... You bet the bad guys go to your state, go to a gun show, come back with an arsenal .. we gotta get rid of that gun show crap .. it is indeed insanity ... that is exactly where the nut cases get them from. The gangs love the gun show AK-47's in your state. Come back here, make them fully auto .. along with the books on building suppressors to deaden the sound etc ... nuts it is all nuts we need a national law for sure. I am with you there


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM

Then I can assume, Ol'ster, that the reason there are so many unregistered guns in New York is because of states like Virginia which require only cash???

If so, then that's exactly what I am talkin' about here...

Sane laws that are uniform... Sounds like New York has sane laws... What good is it doin' ya' if yer ex-con-psycho-neihgbor can come down here with cash, and nothin' more, and bring home an AK47 and a book on how to make it fire automatically???

This is what people are talkin' about when they talk about sane gun control... Where's the control??? Well, there really isn't any, is there???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM

Greg in your county did you have to supply safety training?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM

Just reading it. My county requires safety certification. I am unsure about a couple other counties. Good catch... God I hope they do, that is insane if they don't. I also see now NY does recognize a few other states ... that was never the case 10 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM

In NY you can only carry in public if you have the conceal version of the permit. Not easy to get (I have one) interesting enough NY does not recognize any other states permits because NY is so strict. I am licensed in 26 states but that is because I also have one from PA and Florida. So in those states you get a Florida permit (very easy to get by the way) and you carry all over many other states. That is why we need a federal permit law. But of course none of this applies to the criminal.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM

No bobster, absolutely the opposite in NY. You have to submit your hangun safety course certification with your application. You are fingerprinted, need three references, approval by the local police, the county sheriff and the Judge. You cannot carry the firearm in public unless you have a conceal carry permit like me. That is even harder to get then one for target and hunting ... They do a mental health check and FBI check. If that all comes back clean, then it is up to the judge to decide. Each handgun is registered and the legal weapon is placed on your permit. If you are stopped, the police take your weapon and match the weapon with what is on your permit. If you have one that is not on that permit you will be arrested for an illegal firearm. Very tough laws in NY .. yet our violence from these damn things keeps going up


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bettynh
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM

Jon Stewart's comments


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, Ol'ster... We have too many different laws because we leave it up to the states... If we had one set of laws that governed the entire country then we would see the changes...

Come to Richmond, Va. for one of the dozens of guns shows that are held every year in that city... All you have to do is watch what happens... It is the wild west... If I want an AK 47 and a book to tell me out to turn it into fully automatic all I need is the cash... Mayor Bloomberg has asked Virginia's governor to enact sane gun laws and Virginia's governor has said "Screw you", we like it this way down here... The guns being used to kill people in New York come from Virginia, Ol'ster... This ain't just my opinion... They keep stats on this and Virginia not only arms New York thugs but is also arming the gangs in Mexico...

That's the problem with no uniform laws...

Also, New York, if I understand it does not require gun safety certification, proof of proficiency, ballistic fingerprinting... It also permits semi automatics... And, if I am not mistaken it allows people to take their guns out into the general public...

Here in Virgina we have these cowboys who love to strap on their heat and then all march into a public restaurant in mass to show how fucking brave they are and scare the hell out everyone, including children... I've seen people actually ask for their checks before even finishing their meals when these boorish assholes show up... I haven't done that but I will tell ya' that it will ruin a meal...

No, we do need sane gun regs and just to say they won't work is not correct... How do we know what won't work until we try it... I mean, sanity is all we are looking for here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM

Old dude no need to apologize your suggestion is not far out or unreasonable. There is a trade off though.

Some say if you give attention to the evangelists like Glen Beck you are giving him power. Similarly if you carry guns you are giving attention to the power/problems of a gun society.

The trade off is an omniperesent sense of danger vs. peace of mind.
such as;
is the safety on? is it locked up? is it loaded, is it jamming? Where the F**k is it!, I don;t think a kid could find it here, Should I go for it?! Hmmm they look dangerous, WHAT WAS THAT!!!!?...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM

6. All guns should be registered and have ballistic fingerprints on file...

Bobert, the NRA has long and hard regarding this.

They are against it.

They have not won entirely yet.

What they argued for and got was denying any national data base for gun ownership and registration.

Instead what we are left with are several warehouse locations in which all records are pieces of papers filed in boxes.


The NRA will settle for partial "victories" when they seek total privacty of ownership and total public opness whenit comes to guns sales, gun fairs and gun enhancements.

Fingerprints? having fingerprints is a dream.

This is all part of the no regulation, no goverment interference mantra in which the cry of liberty is still heard by more people than the cries of the victims and family survivors.


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