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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

mousethief 09 Jan 11 - 10:22 PM
josepp 09 Jan 11 - 10:31 PM
Ron Davies 09 Jan 11 - 11:12 PM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 12:25 AM
Genie 10 Jan 11 - 12:51 AM
Genie 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 AM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 01:28 AM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM
Slag 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM
Ebbie 10 Jan 11 - 03:12 AM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 03:45 AM
GUEST 10 Jan 11 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 10 Jan 11 - 05:36 AM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 06:31 AM
Will Fly 10 Jan 11 - 06:46 AM
artbrooks 10 Jan 11 - 07:01 AM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 07:12 AM
Bobert 10 Jan 11 - 08:44 AM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM
EBarnacle 10 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM
Greg F. 10 Jan 11 - 09:46 AM
mousethief 10 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 11:09 AM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 11:14 AM
number 6 10 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM
Bill D 10 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM
EBarnacle 10 Jan 11 - 12:32 PM
Greg F. 10 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM
Stu 10 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM
Bobert 10 Jan 11 - 12:58 PM
Greg F. 10 Jan 11 - 01:01 PM
olddude 10 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM
Donuel 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 PM
EBarnacle 10 Jan 11 - 01:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Jan 11 - 01:43 PM
pdq 10 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 10 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM
number 6 10 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM
josepp 10 Jan 11 - 05:09 PM
josepp 10 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM
number 6 10 Jan 11 - 05:18 PM
Bobert 10 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:22 PM

"Well, no sane person would take literally the idea that WE were suggesting real violence toward our opponents!"

Actually there might be some truth in this -- what sane person would take ANYTHING they say at face value?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:31 PM

When I first read that they were surveyor's marks I looked up surveying symbols online and never saw anything like that. That doesn't mean there aren't such surveyor's marks but they weren't on the site I looked at so they wouldn't be widely used or known. Who in their right mind would use a symbol that looks too much like crosshairs? Just like the anti-abortion nuts: pull this shit and when violence erupts then deny deny deny. How much longer is the public going to put up with this?

The problem is, when did Palin ever try to clear up the misconception that these marks weren't rifle crosshairs? To my knowledge she never has to this day (that was her spokesperson who said they were surveyor's marks not Palin herself).

How many months was that map posted? She had plenty of time to clear it up but she, to my knowledge, was entirely silent on the matter. Now, it seems to me when you are engaging in something that others are misconstruing as dangerous behavior, you owe it to the public to set the record straight to put people's minds at ease. When you don't, people have every right to assume they were right to make the accusation. Ms. Giffords therefore was totally justified to call them rifle sight crosshairs--something which Palin did not bother to repudiate. I also regard them rifle sight crosshairs.

Palin knew what she was doing, did it deliberately, fanned the flames of lunacy with intent, and I hope she is disgraced and ruined forever because of it. Once again, I don't care if the shooting was connected to Palin's actions or not--doesn't matter. When you choose to go down that road, you own whatever violence erupts whether you like or not, whether you think it's fair or not. Ms. Giffords was right about that also--that kind of BS has consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:12 PM

We don't know everything about this.

However, at this point, perhaps we can ask Slag and any others-- who seem to be right of center. for some reason-- who feel it's unfair to link this to dear Sarah, who the Democrats and members of other parties are who have produced political ads with specific opponents in what seem to a rational person to be crosshairs.

Slag tells us others have done this before.   OK, let's have specifics--including source and date.

Particularly telling, it seems to me, is, as several posters have already noted, the fact that when Sarah came out with her "cross-hairs list", and Giffords was on it, that Giffords herself pointed out that there are consequences to something like the "cross-hairs list."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:25 AM

When Teddy Roosevelt was running for office as an independent, a man came up to him before his speech and shot him right in the chest. The bullet tore through his folded speech and his eyeglass case and lodged in the chest wall. Bleeding with the bullet embedded in his chest he refused to not give his speech. In the speech he said, "it takes more than a bullet to kill a bull moose" hence the name of his party. He carried that bullet the rest of his life. The man that shot him was angry .. there had been a lot of political bickering going on yada yada.   

indeed this is not a new event in history, it is a tragic repeat that again rests with the crazy. They will do this no matter what reason and if there is no reason they will find any reason. Blaming it on a party or politics is a mistake. That is the way Teddy looked at it and the way we all should.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:51 AM

Olddude, if "the class of weapons would not make a difference," why not allow everyone except the certifiably mentally ill & those convicted of violent crimes to walk the streets carrying machine guns?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 AM

Olddude, we - most of us - are not blaming this on politics, as such, or on party affiliation. We are saying that violent rhetoric that calls for "taking out" people via "second-Amendment remedies" to political differences or election outcomes, that demonizes others as the sort of vermin that deserve extermination, that employs graphics that seem to show certain people in the cross-hairs of a rifle, etc., actually can disinhibit or provoke the violent inclinations of the many unstable individuals among us, and often does.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:28 AM

Yes Genie it is terrorism. Even the threat alone is half as powerful as violence itself. The mind becomes less rational and loses focus when engulphed by fear.

Don't forget that we have had people fly SMALL planes into the IRS building and even the White house recently. Desperate people with little information or imagination will do stupid copy cat crimes or terrorism even if their lifewas never about terrorism. Their life only needed to be about repeated messages of hopelessness, fear and despair because of the Liberals, commies, Jews, Blacks, MExicans...fill in the usual suspects and scapegoats. Remember the Hutus and Tutsies? To watch this behavior repeated every year of your life for a lifetime and you may begin to believe it is in our DNA.



We still have to talk about the white hot rhetoric that steers people with fear who have no other attention to information or truth, and act soley upon what they hear.

The alternative is silence where evil implies silence as consent.



..........................

If you have have read this forum for over 10 years you might remember how I spent several years posting as a virtual prophet of doom. People hated and dismessed my remarks. I turned to illustrating them instead and they were more tolerated. Today there are people who have made a profession of doom in the coming water crises, climate crises, nuclear terror crises, cyber war crises, oil crises, bio warfare crises, extinction crises....and rightfully so.

Within 40 years it is concievable that 5 billion people will perish within a single decade.   As a species, we still need whacko survivalists. You can see it in TV programing and elsewhere throughout society. Even the money changers are spooked and feel justified hoarding all that there is to be owned in a greedy and senseless way. ( I assure you they won't digest gold well)
Cognitive dissonence will prevent normal sane people from even wanting to think about the coming global problems, let alone to change their life today to deal with life 30 years later.
The average person is capable of about 15% change to their behavior without an emotional overload diminishing their progress. More change than that, and a sort of grieving depression takes place.

I have said it is better to have an intense short depression than to settle for a 20 year medium depression...when it comes to the economic collapse/inflation/theft. Rebuilding will begin later in the slow scenario. This probably applies to the human psyche as well.

America has chosen the slow path to economic recovery the same way Japan did.
20 years will bring most of us all back to where we began but with very little to show for the changes and painful deprivations.
In such a climate civil wars can happen.

So this was the bad news that makes people nervous.
The truth will help us more than the dirty lies.
It is true some people can't handle the truth but heaven help me,
most of us cherish the truth and draw trust and nourishment from it.
So we all need to keep telling the truth even if yout butt does look big in that dress.

The alternative is silence where evil implies silence is consent.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM

FOX NEWS segments, Clear Channel Radio shock jocks, White Power Websites and similar patriotic bigoted sites, EVEN CANDIDATES...

SHOULD REQUIRE A LABEL just like cigarretes, prescriptions or movies.

Lets get a bi partisian multi faith panel to oversee the rating of the violence , financial harm and other factors that a viewing public may see right off the bat.

If they get the equivalent of an X rating let them squeal until they change their tone.

Hey if npr condones violence give them a red danger label as well, but at least it is some small thing that actually can be done in a 1st ammendment open society.

Get 'er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!













I remember watching Barney Franks (when he had no idea what Glen Beck was teaching people about Obama being a Nazi and having concertration camps etc) , when a women seriously said to him that he should not be supporting a nazi born in Africa etc.

Barney said in amazement, "Are these people from Mars or something?"


IF we can't return the fairness doctrine that Reagan abolished, at least we can get a label system by a federal broadcasting agency, outside group like the FED is not really part of the goverment.

You can't fix stupid or legislate hate away but you can have lables.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM

News alert, not that it make a whole lot of difference: The weapon was NOT an automatic, that is, it was not a machine gun. It was a semi-automatic. That makes a big difference legally. It makes no difference to those injured or to the loved ones of those who were killed. I have a friend whose daughter is in a vegatative state because the bf for whom a restraining order was handed down, knocked at her door and threw sulfuric acid in her face. A whack job. Ban sulfuric acid. I have heard of people having their thoats slit ear to ear with one swipe of a blade, certain and almost instantaneous death. Ban sharp things. etc. If that would only really work. Alas, for the world we live in.

How about identify the nut cases early and do something positive to help or re-direct them before thay go off the deep end. Don't just kick them out of school, refer to mental health and alert the proper authorities. Spot the loners with violent or anti-social tendencies. We could do much more than has been done to date.

The connection between what this guy called politics and what sane folks call politics is lightyears apart. One report is saying that two of his favorite books were The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. This guy was in a party of one. Look, if you insist on making this about politics, what exactly are you doing to the level of rhetoric? How does that help bring much needed unity to this nation? If we can't come together over this tragedy we will never come together at all and a house divided cannot stand. If division is all you know or embrace then war ultimately follows. Is that what you want? More bloodshed, on a massive scale? Just keep up the hard nosed rehtoric, both side and eventually, that's what you will have.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 03:12 AM

Early on- and I believe it was on Fox news, the host - a woman - said that it appears that the killer had obtaned his gun legally and made the remark that it seems odd because of his history of instability. This was on the first day.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 03:45 AM

Only a felony conviction can disqualify a person from a legal gun purchase.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:59 AM

'Look, if you insist on making this about politics, what exactly are you doing to the level of rhetoric?'

I can see that this is a new situation for you. But its old stuff for the UK. For about ten years we had a PM called Thatcher. She used to come on TV every night and say the IRA were nothing but criminals. She disallowed the voice of the people who disagreed with her on this point to be heard. Political debate was stifled. The BBC was constantly being called biassed against her

She was into confrontation and the language she used to was confrontational.

As she turned our streets into battlefields, she was getting all sorts of international plaudits for fighting wars hither and thus.

Try to understand this. You will not like it, if these people get in power. If you are frightened to frequent your city streets because people plant bombs. Because you and your children are drawn into riots and crime.

This is not party political - its about the way you conduct yourself in civilised debate. If someone is flirting with the language of violence - don't be seduced. Blow them a raspberry in the polling booth - its the only language they understand.

And organise yourselves to do it. Its the only effective way to honour your dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:36 AM

Sorry - that was me the last guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:31 AM

We did 10 years ago but their election software ws better than ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:46 AM

A sober comment from the UK Guardian's Michael Tomasky:

Where hate rules at the ballot box


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:01 AM

Laws vary from state to state regarding firearms purchase, but a felony conviction isn't the only common restriction. For example, most states ban firearms possession by the mentally ill (variously defined).

"Automatic" is the term generically used for handguns that cycle a cartridge into the chamber through the force of the previous round, as distinguished from a revolver. A separate pull of the trigger is required for each shot (unless the weapon has been illegally modified), as distinguished from an automatic weapon (usually a long arm), which continues to fire as long as the trigger is held back, until the ammunition supply has been exhausted.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:12 AM

This is what I expect from Glen Beck today.

"This delusional kid is a lefty pot smoking liberal who is a pawn of the progressive national socialists to create an atmosphere to take our guns away"


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:44 AM

Some folks say that the laws are fine... They say that we just need to enforce the laws... This is incorrect... The laws aren't just fine... Anyone can go to Richmond, Virginia for one of their many gun shows and buy whatever the heck they want to buy... No background checks... No nuthin'... You got the cash and the sky is the limit in terms of just how much fire power you wnat to take home... Or back to Mexico...

As for the 9mm Glock not being a machine gun??? Well, that is correct... It is a semi-automatic and can be fired as fast as one can pull the trigger... Look down at your own finger and go thru the motion of pullin' a trigger... How many seconds did it take you to empty a 20 round extended clip??? 6 seconds??? 8??? 10 seconds???

How many of you have fired a 9mm??? What happens to the accuracy when it is fired that quickly??? Well, unless you are highly skilled the accuracy goes to pot with each successive shot because of the recoil... That means that unless you are highly trained and skilled that after the 1st shot then it's Katie-bar-the-door for the rest of them...

Maybe Rap can better explain it but the bottom line is that these weapons in the hands of folks who are not highly trained and smkilled is like tossing the car keys to a drunk teenager...

That is the point here... The NRA quit being an organization that cared about gun safety into one that only care$ about $ales of gun$...

So I would hope over the coming months that we will also examine the general public's needs for guns that should only be in the hands of highly trained and skilled owners... I mean, isn't that reasonable???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

Everyone is correct that many people should not ever even spell the word firearm never the less own one. However, this scene plays out over and over again in the US. Some crazy walks into a College and starts killing teachers and college kids. Walks into McDonald's and starts shooting. The political comments, the we got to stop these people and other statements from people like Beck, I am sure that fuels the fire with the crazy. But I am also sure that those same people will find someone else or some other cause to do the exact same thing ... I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM

FWIW, an automatic weapon is one which keeps firing when you hold the trigger. A semiautomatic weapon resets itself so all the operator has to do is pull the trigger for each shot. Other types of weapon need to be reset in one or another way between shots. These definitions have been around for quite a while.

A semiautomatic with an extended clip in the hands of someone with deadly intent is a very deadly weapon, especially if they are trained in its use.

Just because the Fox propaganda machine, including Glen Beck, calls the shooter something does not make it so.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:46 AM

I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.

Kinda like not blaming Islam for the actions of a few nutters, you mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM

Slag: How about identify the nut cases early and do something positive to help or re-direct them before thay go off the deep end. Don't just kick them out of school, refer to mental health and alert the proper authorities. Spot the loners with violent or anti-social tendencies. We could do much more than has been done to date.

That would require money set aside for that. As in, national mental health medical coverage. Yeah, good luck, try getting that through the "all government spending is evil" House of Representatives. Hahahahahah! Mwahahahahaha!

Dreamer
You know you are a dreamer
Can you put your hands in your head?
Oh, no!

We're not making this about politics. It's about violent, over-the-top, shoot-em-up, death-to-our-enemies rhetoric. That Palin et al. use that kind of rhetoric for political purposes is their fault, not ours.

Donuel: This is what I expect from Glen Beck today.

"This delusional kid is a lefty pot smoking liberal who is a pawn of the progressive national socialists to create an atmosphere to take our guns away"


You got it from Jud Phillips yesterday.

Greg F: I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.

Kinda like not blaming Islam for the actions of a few nutters, you mean?


AWESOME COMMENT. You rock.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM

Greg I do not and never will blame Islam for people who commit terrible acts of terrorism. It is a mistake to do so I think and so do many others. No more that I can say the trouble in Ireland was religious, it was political as in the case of 911.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:09 AM

if you take the thinking on this thread and extend it, then was it the democrats rhetoric that cause Ronald Reagan to be shot. Was it the democrats rhetoric that cause Squeaky Fram to try and shoot Gerald Ford?

The logic doesn't make sense , or was it simply a disturbed person?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:14 AM

A reasonable person does not commit an act of violence because of a Glen Beck, nor a Bill Maher or any other talking head who has a show that does nothing more than promote insanity. A reasonable person doesn't watch Jerry Springer and think that is the way one should live their life either ... we are grasping at straws trying to find an answer to violence when the only real answer is: "as long as there are people , there will be people who commit senseless acts" So figure the odds of running into someone like that, probably small, but be prepared if you do. Not that you need to carry, but think about, what would you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM

Well said Olddude ... well said.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM

I think the Beatles are to blame for Charles Manson. If it were not for that "Helter Skelter" it would not have happened right?

see it is bad logic, I think anyway


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

old dude, I feel you are crossing one bridge too far to equate the rhetoric of the Reagan era to the white hot rhetoric today. I know your point has to do with a twisted mind is to blame rather than a political act of hate. However, the man who shot Reagan was trying to impress Jodi Foster in his delusional love affair.

I disagree with you in the same way that I disagree with Juan Willimas who said that liberals refused to jump to a hate motive for the Ft Hood shooter because he was Muslim, but liberals are hypocrits for immediately saying the Arizona shooter's motive was a political vendetta of hate.

I never felt that the Ft Hood shooter acted for any reason other than hate. If certain people were overly cautious in applying a motive for the Ft Hood killer, it was probably due to trying to avoid mass hysteria and stop a potential backlash directed at all Muslims in this country.

I stand by what Sheriff Dubnik said.

It might be good to hear from some public officials who have not been subject to violent threats recently...but it just may be that they're aren't any.

I monitor right wing radio and as a result I have no doubts the perpetual programing of hate, retribution and fear has brought a third of the people in this country to want to pull a hair trigger of vengence directed primarily at Obama, Democrats, women, gays, liberals, blacks, Jews, Mexicans, immigrants, Muslims and even you old dude.





After the Oklahoma bombing Rush LImbaugh wrote an Op Ed piece title "Why I am not to blame". There was no contrition.
Gretchen Carlson on morning FOX cable station said she understood why Gifford was shot because she voted for Obamacare. Again, no contrition.
These people (there I go again) see nothing fundamentally wrong for even thinking that a vote for National Health care should naturally cause some people to be shot.

The sickness is deeper than rhetoric.

Five years ago my fundamentalist right wing Christian neighbor saw my 4 year old climb into our family car on a hot August day a mere 10 seconds before I came out the front door. I did not see my son so I began searching all around the front and back yard and inside the house. My neighbor stood a mere 30 feet away and never said a word until I finally rechecked the backseat after about 15 minutes of my yelling my son's name. Later the neighbor walked part way across the street and said to me that he new my son was in the car all along.

I knew he hated liberals and atheists amd all the rest of the usual suspects but I had not imagined that his hate would be so great as to allow my son to die in a hot car.

That was an awakening for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM

for those who take "Ban sulfuric acid. ..ban sharp things" metaphor seriously...

It could be extended to "ban bricks and baseball bats" also, but banning many types of guns and SEVERELY restricting who is allowed to own them would not affect most people's lives like suggesting silly 'straw men' would.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

Donuel
there is a odorous element of hate rambling in the media today. I think myself it does much more harm then good. But no amount of hate peddling on the networks would make any reasonable man or woman I know do such acts. When I look at history and read my old magazines about Teddy Roosevelt or about Taft and all the hate messages back then, It doesn't look any worse at all to me. What has changed is TV brings it into our homes where before - one had to buy the paper. I never think that messages of hate are not harmful or dangerous and people should not think hard before they say such things on TV, However nothing will stop a defective human from doing such acts with or without the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM

The reason why Gabby has miraculously survived such a devestating wound is because most of the energy of the bullet traveled outside the exit wound and kept going.
If the bullet had stopped inside her brain the brain would have acted like jello absorbing all the remaining energy of the bullet and smash repeatedly against the inside of her skull in wave after wave until all the energy was dissapated.

She may have some sight remain for her right eye since the bullet that went in the left brain was above the optic nerves. The optic nerve cross to opposite sides just like the nerves for the arms and legs.
The LaBroca region on the left side however controls speech however since she is female this region exists somewhat on the right side as well. Men exclusively only have a speech region in their left brain.
It is funny but true that women talk twice as much as men in a day and speak of their feeling more easily because they do in fact have another speech region in their brain's right hemisphere.

This gives hope that she will recover her ability to speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:32 PM

The key word is "reasonable." If someone has cognitive issues, is more suggestible, is in some sort of psychiatric trouble, they are more likely to take an action which is drummed into their head as a means of solving their/the world's problems.

If the shooter had gotten help, there are at least 6 people who might be alive today. Arizona, of course, has made that more difficult with their budget cuts for mental health.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM

A reasonable person does not commit an act of violence because of a Glen Beck, nor a Bill Maher or any other talking head...

Depends on your definition of "reasonable", dunnit? And perhaps some of the victims of Kristallnacht & The Camps might disagree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

"So figure the odds of running into someone like that, probably small, but be prepared if you do. Not that you need to carry, but think about, what would you do."

Olddude's comment is an illustration of the difference between a gun-obsessed society like the US and places like Europe where although some criminals carry guns, most of the police don't and a miniscule proportion of the population does.

It's about seeing yourself as a victim. It might seem contradictory ("I ain't a victim because I've got a gun") but the truth is people see themselves as victims of crimes which haven't been committed, which may never be committed and that fear, which may or not be irrational (probably the latter though if considered in the cold hard light of day) is what drives gun cultures such as the US. There are other reasons of course, but it's fear and a sense of victimhood which drives intelligent people to arm themselves in this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

Reasonable people do crazy things too. With enough hate programming the behavior of a reasonable person will influence their response to a particular situation. Think of the neighbor who seems reasonable but given a situation where he need only do nothing to kill a child of an evil athiest, his behavior is twisted leaned hate.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM

I try to use the legal definition of reasonable. What a court would determine by way of action. Nothing more. Now of all the people you have ever met in your life, of all the people that watch TV and may even agree with Glen Beck. How many do you know that have done such an act? you see reasonable is a pretty clear cut standard (I think anyway)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:58 PM

This isn't about "reasonable" people, Ol'ster... It's a bout borderline people who also own handguns...

Reasonable people aren't going to do stupid stuff... Borderline people do... Unfortunately, as a former social worker working mostly with folks with mental illnesses, I understand that these folks don't process information like the rest of us... Herein lies the problem with terms like "Don't retreat, reload", or "2nd amendment remedies"... Reasonable people may hear these term and shrug them off as metaphors but borderline people may hear those terms and think of them as "permission" to act...

The other problem is that if we follow attacks on people going back to the 60's there is one thing that stands out... Seems that too many of them have been perpetrated by those on the right against those on the left or by people who have bought into Ronald Reagan's theory that the government is evil... I mean, going back to JFK some 45 years ago one would be hard pressed to find anyone on the right who has been targeted... I'm not talkin' about just politicians either... How about doctors working at women's clinics??? Lotta them been shot, too...

Bottom line, looks like the right kinda owns the violence side of the equation...

(But what about the Unibomber, Boberdz...)

Well, he certainly fell into the "conspiracy theorists"/anit-government category that seems to to be rampant on the right...

No, I don't buy this "both sides" PR stuff that the right is ratcheting up right now... There is a reason why Palin pulled the cross hairs down off her site... They know they are in the wrong but they are going to do everything in their power to try to shift yet another terrorist attack against the left on the left itself...

Normal...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:01 PM

Amen, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM

Bobster

   oh they are indeed wrong. Who the hell puts cross hairs on as a logo. There really is no reason for all of the hate peddling. I agree on that for sure and border line mental cases that get all fired up when listening to this crap. yup, like the guy in the bar with a couple of drinks and then bashes the guy next to him in the head because he said something about Harley motorcycles. A reasonable person would not do that. That is true also. There are border line head cases everywhere today and hate peddling does nothing to help. All the more reason for people to be more security conscience I think. Even the border line hot heads I think would not go this far. Takes a special type of defect that will always exist .. IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 PM

The legal def also applies to using only a minimum effective force for self defense. For example a reasonable man if attacked by a woman with a broom would not defend himself with a knife, but dust pan would be OK/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:31 PM

It depends on what falls to hand, Donuel. You used a bad analogy.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:43 PM

"I've got it in my sights" has been a common expression for a couple or more centuries. My dictionary says 1602.

Now you are asking that it be removed from speech?
I guess " zero in" has to go too.

A lot depends on viewpoint. ".....another attack on the left."
Some here make similar mindless attacks on the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

There are actually three maps that show Congress people as targets, starting with one by the Democratic Leadership Committee in 2004...


                                                                                                      all three are here


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

Interesting bit on the deletion policy of the moderators of the Palin facebook page.

Any negative comment towards SP was immediately deleted, yet a message which said:


"It's ok. Christina Taylor Green was probably going to end up a left wing bleeding heart liberal anyway. Hey, as 'they' say, what would you do if you had the chance to kill Hitler as a kid? Exactly."


Was left.

What to make of that?





Link here to the Obama London Blog that spotted the whole thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM

I looked at the maps. Yes, the targets are there. The difference is therhetoric which came after the map. Search to your heart's content--you will not find any discussion of second amendment solutions or reloading. There is a different between "a targeted approach" and "take them out." If a targeted approach were violent in most cases, business campaigns would be out and would have to learn a whole new language. 'taint what you say, sometimes, it's the way you insight it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM

Exactly Guest ... the slogan on Woody Guthries guitar (this machine kills fascists) comes somewhat to mind regarding this.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:09 PM

"Don't retreat, reload!"
- Sarah Palin, former Governor of Alaska

"If this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies."
- Sharron Angle, former member of the Nevada State Assembly

"If ballots don't work, bullets will."
- Joyce Kaufman, Radio host, Tea Party activist

"I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous . . . The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Currently serving United States Congresswoman from Minnesota Michele Bachmann, leader of the Tea Party Caucus, paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson

Strange too that the most violent rhetoric of the right comes from women who are supposed to be more peaceful than men. Shows you how seriously wrong something is on that side of the fence.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

I think what we will see next is a big schism in the tea party between the Sarah-lovers and the Sarah-haters. If that happens, it is essentially the death of the tea party. You just can't talk that talk for long before it catches up to you and it appears that it did. Palin seems to be in hiding now. Those who worked with her on McCain's campaign said that her bubbly public persona is offset by her private moroseness. When things don't go her way, she becomes very depressed and uncommunicative. I imagine she is a manic depressive right about now and her handlers will not allow her to be seen in public that way. If I'm wrong, where the hell is she?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:18 PM

American rhetoric ... it has been for years ... win at all cost, obliterate the opposition. .... ""Live Free or Die", new Hampshire's motto, hell it's even on their car licence plates ... whew, heavy stuff from a rather Democrat leaning state.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM

Its the testosterone in the water, josz... The liberals did that too, I'm sure...


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