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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

olddude 19 Jan 11 - 10:20 AM
Bobert 18 Jan 11 - 10:04 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM
mousethief 18 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM
olddude 18 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM
Slag 18 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM
Slag 18 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM
EBarnacle 18 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM
mousethief 18 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 11 - 02:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM
josepp 18 Jan 11 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Jan 11 - 12:02 PM
Greg F. 18 Jan 11 - 09:53 AM
Slag 18 Jan 11 - 04:23 AM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 06:37 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM
mousethief 17 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 06:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jan 11 - 05:47 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM
olddude 17 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM
EBarnacle 17 Jan 11 - 04:39 PM
olddude 17 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM
EBarnacle 17 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 11 - 03:14 PM
Bill D 17 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM
josepp 17 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM
EBarnacle 17 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM
josepp 16 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 11 - 09:25 PM
josepp 16 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM
Donuel 16 Jan 11 - 02:10 PM
Bobert 16 Jan 11 - 12:51 PM
pdq 16 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM
olddude 16 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM
EBarnacle 16 Jan 11 - 11:52 AM
artbrooks 16 Jan 11 - 11:16 AM
Greg F. 16 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:20 AM

Well like we said, there needs to be some serious revision in some of the states (especially yours bobster) lets get rid of the gun show loophole. I think every responsible gun owner knows that you cannot let anyone and everyone carry anything without knowing they are stable and not criminals .. and certain types of weapons, I don't think anyone wants to defend that either. Crap, I don't want your crazy shoot at the house neighbor with a fully auto weapon either .. We just need to get to the root of the issue, that is mental health and how we as a nation are going to address it or not address it. Money is a huge factor I agree, I just don't know if we can afford to not do something anymore ... don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:04 PM

No, better yet...

AK-47s in baby's cribs...

Well, someone might break into the house while dad is at work and shoot mommy and then baby become the last line of defense...

Seed how insane this all is???

Can anyone defend arming insane people and letting them into government buildings???

I mean, lets get real here!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM

Yeah, suicide does come from depression... The fact is that with 300,000,000 guns in the US there seems to be one within reach when people suffer from the lows of depression... Throw in the fact that we aren't spending any money on mental health and the abundance of readily available and loaded guns everywhere you look it's no wonder that we are seeing 14,000 suicides a year...

I mean, let's get real here... This shooting in Arizona ain't the first of these and won't be the last.... Just today a couple of kids in school in LA got shot... I mean, WTF??? We have a series of major disconnects with sane policies in this country... Too many guns and too many people with serious mental problems on the street... Throw in the "2nd amenders" and we are in the perfect storm for more and more Tucsons... Used to be that we'd get a postal worker once a year... Now they are comin' in droves...

Do you realize that I can be the most insane person you know, drive to Richmond and buy an AK-47 (with the book on how to make it an automatic weapon) and walk, yes fuckin' walk, to the Virginia General Assembly with it in plain sight and sit in the gallery of the House of Delegates with a fully loaded AK-47 watching the proceedings and I have broken not one law???

That, my friends, is insane policy!!! Check it out!!! Yeah, the Virginia General Assembly is going to take up a repeal of the law they passed allowing people to come to government building packing heat but the NRA values $$$$$$$$$$$$ over life so until some somabich opens fire and kills about 45 General Assembly members in some fit of madness then the NRA is gonna get what it wants... What next??? AK-47s in the US Capitol in the hands of the spectators in the gallery???

I mean, this is insanity... 300 million fucking guns for 318 million people, half of them kids or in nursing homes, and we wonder why the US is the murder capitol of the so-called developed-nations world???

Beam me up, Scotty... There is no sanity left here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

Mouseklepto, I sure get tired of responding to people who read only half of what is posted or in regards to phantom statements which I did not make. Had you continued to read you would have noted that I said, in effect, that your rights end where mine begins. You do not have the right to violate the free exercise of my rights and vice versa, that peers could judge the matter and inflict penalty and remedies. Gee! No wonder there is so much arguement.

Ah, I didn't expect you to contradict yourself. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM

Most if not all suicides are caused by one and only 1 factor. Severe depression caused by mental illness I think. They will take pills, use a gun, jump off a bridge but in short it is a very sad mental illness and the thinking is that no one cares, and usually no one recognizing it before it gets to that point.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM

Yeah, Slag... That is some messed up reasoning on yer part... Sounds like it came right out of a NRA propaganda brochure entitled "101 ways to tell the sane people to shut the *** up"...

I mean, if you can't see the difference between a guy diein' from a heart attack because he is slammed working 50 hours a week, doesn't have time to exercise, yeah, eats the wrong foods and a guy who comes from home from work, walks in the bathroom, sticks a pistol in his mouth and blows the back of his head out to be discovered by his kids then I feel sorry for you... That is the most pathetic rebuttal I think I've read here at Mudcat in a long, long time... Maybe the most!!!

Please don't ever tell me about your Faith again... MY God don't think like you...

BTW, my Faith says confess yer sins and sin no more... Ain't no loopholes where you get to like "buy" forgiveness prior to the sin... Show me anywhere in the Bible that says that God allows us to pre-pay for forgiveness of sin... You can't, because it ain't in there... I'm not saying that you might not still get into Heaven, I am saying that that sin is the only sin for which you cannot be forgiven...

And worse yet... Suicide is not only violent and sinful but it is downright hateful for the family and friends... Good Christians don't stick pistols in their mouths and pull the trigger...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

Mouseklepto, I sure get tired of responding to people who read only half of what is posted or in regards to phantom statements which I did not make. Had you continued to read you would have noted that I said, in effect, that your rights end where mine begins. You do not have the right to violate the free exercise of my rights and vice versa, that peers could judge the matter and inflict penalty and remedies. Gee! No wonder there is so much arguement.

Bobert, some people are like nitro-glycerine. How they get that way can be a story of many pages but they get that way and then they are like a force of nature, like a lightening strike. The big and sad difference is that the explosion is usually directed at someone or something which they preceive as the cause of their mental anguish. Obviously this mental state can be induced in others and used for political purposes as in the case of suicide bombers. In some it is self-induced and in others it perhaps is a force of nature. The means they use might be a Glock 19 or a truckload of fertilizer, a sword a knife or Kung-fu. It is the mental garbage that is at fault, not the insturmentallity.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM

Bobert!!! Unforgiven! Now in how many ways are we killing ourselves? I mean other than guns, bridges and nooses? Let's see, well, the easy ones are smoking, excess drinking, how about sex with partners with potential STDs that are fatal? Too much mayonaise in the diet? Speeding or unsafe lane changes? High school sports with statistically proven fatallity rates? Walking unsafe streets? Drug abuse? making book with ISF? etc. So many of us are killing ourselves slowly so that makes a difference? Do you know the human body's capacity for unrelenting pain of say certain cancers which are going to inevitable end in death? I have nothing but empathy for these folks and total forgiveness. I know that my God is at least as loving and forgiving than I am. In fact much more, infinitely more loving and forgiving than I! I can't judge the actions of folks, the lives of whom I do not know and pains I cannot know. Self murder? or self inflicted death with repentance aforethought? This life IS a living death. The fortunate among us do not have to realize that until the very end but it is a truth that is in play from the very moment of our comceptions. All will die with varying amounts of pleasure and pain dispropartionately scattered throughout the time we walk this planet. Please rethink your statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM

I feel that there ought to be a right to commit suicide.

I also feel that Bobert's analysis above about where the gun violence is coming from is right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

Not many people commit suicide to end a painful, uncurable condition...

The entire de-valuation of life permeates our society... If it's not the 300,000,000 guns, most of which are people-killing handguns it's our graphic movies, video games, music, etc... The 31 round clip sends a loud message that life has little value... People don't hunt with Glocks... They buy them to shoot people... Or target practice so that they will have higher skills at shooting people... Having been in a shoot club as a youngster and military training I am purdy darned good with a gun, one shot at a time... I fired a Glock a couple years ago and once the first round is fired the accuracy goes way down if opne is firing rapidly... Now I'm sure that Rap can handle a Glock a little better but the issue here is that in the average shooter's hands a Glock, especially with 31 rounds and adrenalin pumping is a very dangerous weapon...

Had someone at the Safeway parking lot in Tuscon had a Glock, unless they were ***highly skilled*** then it could have been twice the number of people shot... But like who cares, right Q???

I mean, let's get real here... No, the politics aren't right now but the US will have to face it's anti-human side at some point in time in the future... This isn't just about the "bad guys"... It's about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.... Death = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

I wholeheartedly disagree with yer opinions on guns and the role they play in devaluing life... I also disagree with your opinion that suicide is not violent... Those are, IMO, anti-human opinions...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM

Nothing to do with the shooting of Giffords, but suicide is a good way to end a painful, uncurable condition. One shot between the eyes and goodnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

Note that the rights enumerated in the Declartion of Independence say nothing about guns, even though they do address quartering soldiers in private homes.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM

Slag sez: [b]The thing about rights, our God-given rights according to the Declaration, is that they are your rights! You can't give them up as they are unalienable. They are part and parcel of what you are as a human being. [/b]

So you don't believe the state has the right to incarcerate or to inflict capital punishment?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:27 PM

In my book suicide is murder... It is the one sin that cannot be forgiven...

And one does have to wonder how many suicides would be prevented if there weren't so many guns... Can't be proven one way or another... Yeah, one can make a statement that "Ralph would have just found another way to kill himself"... That is opinion...

So to say that suicide has nothing to do with handgun violence is your opinion, Q... Maybe you haven't personally had to deal with a family member who has committed suicide... Ask folks who have... It most certainly is violence... Like I said, the only sin for which God cannot forgive...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

Bobert, read your own posts- you said 30,000 murders at the end of your post 17 Jan.
I posted a correction.

The U. S. has a suicide rate of 11.1 per 100,000 population, ranking 40th on the list, a relatively low rate, Canucks at 11.6, 35th on the list. The Brits have a low rate, but France, Finland, etc. have a high rate (17 per 100,000).

Suicides have nothing to do with handgun violence; it is largely a mental health problem, plus those choosing a quick way out of life-ending illnesses. For those wanting to depart this scene, a gun is quicker than hanging or poison, and jumping out of a high window leaves a mess to be cleaned up.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM

Forget Sarah Plain, josz... She has completely marginalized herself this time...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:31 PM

Now Palin says that she didn't take the map down from her site nor was it any of her advisers but rather the graphic artist who made the map. Yeah, apparently this guy, whoever he is, can just go on Palin's site and add or remove anything he wants to. Why did he decide to take it down? He felt responsible. Not Palin, the artist. HE felt responsible, she couldn't give half a shit.

I suppose he also had total access to her Facebook page and took down the "Don't retreat instead reload" statement as well.

Kind of makes you wonder who is running things at Palin Central.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM

relief.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:02 PM

Some comic relef:

Hi, I am a Teapartier!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:53 AM

BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct..

Jeez- BlogOPedia WRONG?? Can't be.Say it ain't so! Its posted on the Internet - gotta be true!!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:23 AM

Ebbie, I have re-read my posts and I do not know what you are referring to or where you picked up your obvious misquote. Almost and murder??? Huh?

The thing about rights, our God-given rights according to the Declaration, is that they are your rights! You can't give them up as they are unalienable. They are part and parcel of what you are as a human being. If you abuse your rights at the expense of another person's rights then you have jeopardized your rights and a jury of peers can take various actions to remedy the abuse or abuses. Everyone has the right to defend their life and the lives of the innocent folks in their house and community. And we have the right to be able to meet force with force sufficient to counter whatever force is weilded aganst us, hence we have the right to keep and bear arms. It is the resposiblity of the person to conduct himself or herself in a way that does not threaten or abuse the rights of others and our laws are, or were originally, designed to delineate those responsibilities and to provide penalty and compensation for abuses.

If someone has demonstrated mental illness of the type and to the degree which constitutes a threat, they need to be identified and limited in their personal sovereignty, that is as a free moral agent.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:37 PM

Yer correct, mouse, but if we look back at recent history --- you know, like the last 40 years -- the folks gettin' offed are on the left side of the political divide... Plus, it ain't the left that is pissed off at government, been told it's okay to fuck someone up with "2nd Amendment" remedies and the real biggie here...

... is armed to the teeth... I read recently that there are 9 guns for every 10 people in America... Throw in alot of kids and old people in nursing home and lefties who tend to not buy into that "Obama is going to take yer guns" making folks run to the gun stores to stock up and what we have is one heck of alot of righties packin' lots of heat...

That ain't meant to be "uncivil" thems just the facts...

Yeah, everyone says that both sides should be listening to the other side but the right side has had the mi9crophone so long that it's their side that gets repeated over and over and over... I mean, there is not one issue that I could argue the right's position on right off the top of my head... That's how much the left has had to listen, like it or not, to this drumbeat of rightwinged propaganda... No, this ain't about civility... When is it time for the right to have to listen???

(Never, Boberdz... That's when... We own everything and if you don't like it, go **** yerself...)

Yeah, that's about it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM

30,896 in 2006

library.med.utah


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

EBarnacle sez Regrettably, she has what amounts to forever to recover. What is true today is likely to be invisible tomorrow

And what's truth to a Tea Partier anyway?

Bill D sez I am, though, in favor of some way of doing what this Arizona law seems to be after.... a way of investigating those who appear to their peers as unstable and 'treating' (whatever that might mean) them to lessen the odds of trouble... and in MY opinion, 'treating' would include putting them on a **DO NOT SELL GUNS TO THESE FOLKS** list.

That would involve, um, gun control. And even one gun control law clearly puts us on a slippery slope to a gunless USA. Or so sez the NRA and its minions. Making this a "good effing luck" sort of proposition.

olddude sez: Ok here is the bottom line, we can blame the media, the parties, our society, firearms, we can blame string theory if we want. But one thing I am certain, we are doing little to identify and help those that are truly mentally disturbed, unless we get a workable handle on that... look for more of this stuff and it doesn't have to be with a firearm either ...

But that would require public spending.

Bobert sez: If 20 Congressman were shot nothing would change unless we could get private money out of politics...

If 20 Republican congressmen were shot, something would certainly change. They would find a way to make it the Democrats' fault and haul all their asses to prison -- or something unsavory.

And goes on to say: BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct... There are moderators who struggle with folks trying to get their stuff into it... It's a push pull on a daily basis with folks trying to change the story, which BTW, is changeable...

Particularly the political hot button issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM

Didn't take long...

You are not accounting for the 14,000 or so suicides, Q... They count, too, when we are talking about handguns...

More later...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:12 PM

I'll accept yer numbers until I find the sources who have been using the 30,000 number... BTW, this number has been in the Washington Post several times over the last couple of months... I just don't keep old newspapers...

BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct... There are moderators who struggle with folks trying to get their stuff into it... It's a push pull on a daily basis with folks trying to change the story, which BTW, is changeable...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:47 PM

30,000? Not correct.
Handgun homicides about 8000 in 2004 (peak in 1993 with 14000). Other gun types, in 2004, about 2000.
From Wikipedia, Homicides by weapons type

(Posted in that gn control thread).


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

30,000 people are killed with handguns every year in this country, Ol'ster... I'd say that we are way beyond being on the front edge of the repercussions of defunding our mental health agencies and hospitals... Way beyond...

The problem here is that there are forces that just don't wnat to do anything... The folks on the right who hate taxes, regardless of the fact that they are lower now than they have been in the last 50 years, have planted this "hate taxes and hate government" mindset so it is impossible to even discuss it rationally... Same with reasonable gun regulations... That discussion has been taken off the table, as well...

That's what you get when one side so totally controls the conversation... And guess what??? If 20 Congressman were shot nothing would change unless we could get private money out of politics... We have a broken system... Yeah, we can talk all we want about being civil but until the right loosens up it stranglehold on our democracy nothing will change... It will be the Wild West with most of ther cowboys being fringe loonies... Don't believe me??? Come to Richmond for one of the gun shows and just observe and listen??? You will hear more anti-Obama, anti-government, anti-human, anti-environment, anti-sanity conspiracy theorists ranting mindlessly about anything that comes into their minds...

I mean, we have a very sick society... Very sick...

Yeah, 30,000 murders??? Come on... We've not only crossed over the Loonie River but have burned the bridge behind us...


B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

I don't disagree with ya bob, money is always a factor but somehow we have to make this a priority or just live with these continuing occurrences and that is very sad. Recently on the news here, a troubled teen murdered his whole family with a kitchen knife while they slept. Afterwords the same story, past friends saying he was hearing things and seeing visions ... neighbors saying he was so kind and nice but something changed in the last 4 years and it continues


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

It's not that easy, Ol-ster... States are having a lot of trouble these days balancing their budgets... That is reality... Also real is that none are spending anywhere near what they used to spend on mental health (per capita) back when I got into social work... So the question is is where is the money???

Of course, there are lots of people who just think that government is evil and ineffective and/or that money can't solve problems and unfortunately many of those people have found a safe haven in the, ahhhhh, government... That is a big problem on top of them lack of funds for mental health...

I remember when deinstitutionalization came about in a big way and the state hospitals unloaded their clients on society... Well, more on adult services social workers than anyone else... It was a mess... And not long after that we started seeing the cuts in Title XX funds that we, as scoail workers, used to purchase services such as transportation, adult day care, etc. so what we ended up with was a double whammy in that here we had massive case loads of menatlly ill people and no resources to serve them...

So for people to say that we "ought to" do this or that is all well and good but unless mental health becomes a priority, and this recent shooting won't bring about, we're kinda screwed... I'd love to see the states re-prioritize but it ain't gonna happen because it will have to be paid for... Just like sensible gun controls won't happen... Too much push back from the folks who either profit from the sales of guns or are paranoid...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

Olddude, Good to see you're rising above the crap!

People can sometimes get infantile. A cursory reading of Matthew 5:21-22 shows that Jesus is speaking not so much about murder but of the steps that lead to it. He traces the roots of murder and war to three major sources: 1) anger, 2) hatred, and 3) the spirit of competition and aggression—in short, the self-centeredness of passionate carnality.

Oh, I forgot, some people think Jesus had nothing to say.......

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:39 PM

GfS, I am not putting myself on the same stage you and are referring to. I am talking about feelings and reactions. I am not putting anyone down.

What I left out is how often there was overt or covert support from local officialdom at that time.

At that time, I was one of the people on the receiving end. Even now, that can be a bit anxiety provoking. It did not keep me from working with people on both sides and it won't in the future. It certainly colors my thinking.

How many people of your acquaintance class you with "you damn liberals [and other, less polite names] who do X, Y or Z?"


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM

Ok here is the bottom line, we can blame the media, the parties, our society, firearms, we can blame string theory if we want. But one thing I am certain, we are doing little to identify and help those that are truly mentally disturbed, unless we get a workable handle on that... look for more of this stuff and it doesn't have to be with a firearm either ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM

Come on, let's knock off the fear and loathing shit...you are drinking from the same poison that you condemn the other lunatic with!!!..Jeez, get a clue!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM

I have been listening to the various remembrances of the 60's and the career of Martin Luther King today. What is on the radio brings back memories of the period leading up through the resignation of Nixon. Those were scary times.

The issues have evolved somewhat since then but one thing that is coming back to me is that those were also scary and confusing times. A lot of people were being assaulted and shot by those who were determined to "protect their rights" against alla them others...the Blacks, Yankees, intellectuals, carpetbaggers who wanted to impose their values on "us," and so forth. It is unfortunate how little we have moved in almost 43 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 03:14 PM

Two states already have a program of trying to identify the loonies... Virginia, after Va. Teck, is one... Can't remember the other... So that leaves 48 for the loonies...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM

I STILL don't believe she ever seriously intended to run for president. She has made millions 'hinting' that she 'might'. Being president is WORK and would require her to read boring documents...early in the morning.

As to a wide ranging Arizona law allowing almost anyone to initiate a process of incarcerating people for mental evaluation.
That sure sounds good on paper, but I can imagine why few other states have done it. It opens up things for simple harassment of folks one just 'doesn't like'...and IF they are deemed safe after evaluation, just being harassed may push a few to seek revenge....in some way. (Unless anonymity is offered to complainants.)
If every slightly 'odd' person were subject to screening, it could get out of hand.

   I am, though, in favor of some way of doing what this Arizona law seems to be after.... a way of investigating those who appear to their peers as unstable and 'treating' (whatever that might mean) them to lessen the odds of trouble... and in MY opinion, 'treating' would include putting them on a **DO NOT SELL GUNS TO THESE FOLKS** list.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM

Oh, she won't go away. I'm not saying that but she will never be a viable candidate for the presidency after 2012. By that time, people will start looking for new blood since it will be obvious poor Sarah is just not electable. But she'll a RW Wacko cheerleader on the sidelines--that I'll guarantee.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM

Regrettably, she has what amounts to forever to recover. What is true today is likely to be invisible tomorrow.

No matter how much of a talking head she is presented as, she has a great probablility of shooting herself in the foot on a regular basis. Unfortunately, her faithful followers tend to to be the sort that, if she says manure is chocolate, will tend to eat it up.

Yes, Slag, I am contemptuous of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Yep, she still had wiggle room if she had taken the smart tack during her last announcement and regret the rhetoric and maps and say she is done with that kind of politics. Hell, that might have made her a viable candidate. Instead, it was "I'm the real victim in all this! How dare you blame poor, little me!" Even people who thought she was being picked on turned against her if the various political forums and blogs are any indication. It wasn't the brightest thing to say.

By saying it, she blew it. Totally blew it down the toilet. She is now a spent force with a political career living on borrowed time with an expiration date stamped 2012 when it will no longer pass the smell test for even the dullest of noses.

I expect as 2012 nears, many in the tea party will read the writing on the wall and want to jettison her and others in the party won't allow it and so the tea party will fracture--is already fracturing--and it will also become a spent force. While I do believe some tea partiers have noble enough aspirations, the party as a whole deserves it for ever making room for this stupid woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:25 PM

Righto. Josz...

I mean, they even gave Palin a re-do and she and all her advisers still blew it???

Go figure... The ol' gal is a one-trick pony... Militarism and confrontation for any occasion...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM

///"Concocting connections to advance an argument actually weakens it. The argument for tonal moderation has been done a tremendous disservice by those who sought to score political points in the absence of proof."

New York Times. The Tucson Witch Hunt, Charles M. Blow, Op-Ed, January 14, 2011. ////

Except that no one has to concoct anything. I wouldn't believe a paper that hired Jason Blair and Judith Miller. I am the public and the public does not believe Jared Loughner was tea party member or was trying to carry out their agenda for them. But under no circumstances do I believe Sarah Palin is guiltless.

Here is why Sarah Palin is finished and will never survive running for another office: It doesn't matter a lick about Jared Loughner. It doesn't matter why he did it. Let's just assume he was acting completely on his own and his actions had absolutely nothing to do with the tea party or the RW rhetoric.

That's not what has ruined Palin. What ruined Palin is her actions just after the shooting. Between the time that the shooting occurred and the few hours that elapsed before the shooter was identified, Palin's map with the crosshairs came down and her statement on her FB page "Don't rettreat--instead RELOAD!" was removed. Why did she do that except that she obviously believed that she WAS responsible for the shooting. Then she remained silent for several days to make sure the tea party spin doctors made Loughner into a certifiable looney BEFORE she made any public statement.

In other words, she was destroying the evidence and whitewashing her websites in order to disavow any connection to an incident she feared that she was intimately connected to--that she, in fact, caused. Her actions are as transparent as a glass window. She was already distancing herself from her own rhetoric and tactics to prepare for the possibility that the shooter was, in fact, one of her dedicated followers. THAT is damning.

So if she somehow manages to throw her hat in the race in 2012 (and the tea party has so few candidates with any degree of mass public appeal that this is a possibility), she will be asked that: "Why did you remove your map and your 'reload' statement immediately after the shooting occurred and before anyone knew who the shooter was?"

What can she possibly answer when the only possible answer is that she was afraid that her words and tactics caused it? And why would she fear that except she knew perfectly well that the tactics were at best questionable and at worst capable of pushing a whacko to kill someone on her target list?

Then to get up a few days later and say, "See? He was just a whack job! It had nothing to do with me!" Doesn't hide the truth: she obviously thought right after the shooting that it did have something to do with her. She was acknowledging that the people who were calling for her to take down the map and tone down the rhetoric were right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM

Child protection agencies, and laws enabling involuntary evaluation, as Bobert suggests, sometimes seem to do little. They are hampered by a legal system which requires proof (a witness, etc.). Relatives bring actions to release the person being held responsible. School teachers and others outside the legal system are afraid that they will end up as the victims of suits or school boards who hate 'fuss'. Facilities for evaluation are short of money. Etc. Etc.

Correcting the system is difficult unless the public gets involved in a large way, and many people don't want to be bothered. Then they raise holy hell when they are affected.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 02:10 PM

Glen Beck was young once

Dopplegangers aside,
there are dots we are told we should not connect. Dots like FOX healines saying "Democrats visiously Attack Republican Women" and then 2 days later a democratic women gets her head stommped at a Rand Paul rally. Mindyou these are not a coincidence. Nor were the calls to kill or hang Obama in Sarah Palin campaign crowds, to which Ms. Palin merely smiled.

Birther Muslim death panel rumors did not erupt from a vaccume like some virtual particle. They are murderously intentional. They are openly designed to make Obama a one term president by any means necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:51 PM

Well, Ol'ster, in theory the idea of child and adult protective services is great... Reality??? Much different... Especially among the poorest among us... Believe me, it ain't that easy to get social services all worked up about abuse unless you have an air-tight case to present them...

When I was a social worker I saw too much really bad stuff... Kids you know were being abused... Child protective services people would ask, "Did you witness the abuse???" If not, then go peddle yer papers...

I mean, we all think that these agencies do more than they actually do when the time comes where you need them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM

"...the "dangerous to oneself or others" criterion for involuntary commitment has been around for at least 40 years.

Longer than that. Serious efforts were made in the 1950s to liberate mental patients and prevent them from getting awful things done to them such as electro-shock treatment and lobotomies.

People keep bringing up the name of Reagan when talking about dumping crazy folks out into the stereet, but California's state mental hospitals had 37,000 patients in 1959, at the peak. By the beginning of 1967, when Reagan took office as governor of California, the number was down to 22,000, only about 60% of the 1959 number. That was done under "Pat" Brown, Jerry "Governor Moonbeam" Brown's father.

The California Legislature, a few months after Reagan began his first term, introduced the Lanterman-Short-Petris act which is, essentially, a mental patients "bill of rights".

I believe that L-S-P allows for involuntary commitment for up to 72 hours for the purpose of evaluation. The order to evaluate can come from only three groups of people: law enforcement officer, school teacher or judge.

What Regan did was follow the mandates of L-S-P which resulted in most institutionalised patients going into "halfway houses" by 1970.

The Pima County shariff knew about the Tucson shooter for perhaps 3 years and could have demanded that he be committed temporarily for evaluation. Had he done so, the FBI check probably would not have come back as clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

we need to take that law more serious I think, maybe less of this stuff would occur. This young man was seriously disturbed and fell through the cracks. We do a lot to try and prevent child abuse, to try and get the dangerous drivers off the road, to try and prevent drug deaths. I don't think we do near enough to help the disturbed get help. My opinion ... we blame firearms, and a good case can be made for the easy accessibility via the gun show loophole. But the fact is, so many disturbed people are falling through the cracks of our society and when they lose it, we all lose. That is an area that needs addressed I think


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:52 AM

One of the victims in the shooting has been hospitalized for observation when he said to a founder of the Arizona Tea Party "You're dead." This was in the news this morning.

I wonder whether the same rule would have applied if he had said "you're politically dead."

The "dangerous to oneself or others" criterion for involuntary commitment has been around for at least 40 years. As a psychologist in the 70's and 80's, I had the onus of making these decisions. It is not always easy to decide...at least if you take it seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:16 AM

Not exactly, Greg. It is apparently easier in Arizona. More here.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM

And even if there were a legal option, no- one would be willing to pay for it. Gotta cut taxes, ya know, especially for billionaires & multi-national corporations.


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