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BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

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Subject: Ariz. Dem. Gabrielle Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 01:59 PM

Just a few minutes ago --

NPR: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

>>U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot in the head outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Arizona Public Media reported Saturday.

The 40-year-old Democrat, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting a "Congress on Your Corner" event at a Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

At least nine other people, including members of her staff, were hurt. Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson. Her condition was not immediately known.

Giffords was talking to a couple when the suspect ran up and fired indiscriminately from about four feet away, Michaels said.

The suspect ran off and was tackled by a bystander. He was taken into custody. Witnesses described him as in his late teens or early 20s.

Giffords was first elected to represent Arizona's 8th District in 2006. The "Congress on Your Corner" events allow constituents to present their concerns directly to her.

More details to come.<<

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: BS: 2nd Ammendment
From: saulgoldie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM

----------------------------------------
Breaking News Alert: Reports: Ariz. Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords shot at Tucson public event
January 8, 2011 1:46:15 PM
----------------------------------------

Arizona Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot on Saturday morning while hosting an event outside of a Tucson grocery store, according to local news reports.

National Public Radio reported Saturday that Giffords, who in November narrowly won re-election to a third term, was hosting her first "Congress on Your Corner" event when a gunman ran up and began shooting.

According to a local news report, Giffords was shot in the head at point-blank range. She was taken to University Medical Center in Tucscon; her condition was not immediately known.


And the nutjobs exercise their 2nd ammendment "rights" to thwart elections.

Saul


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Subject: BS: Democratic Ariz. Congresswomen shot dead
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:19 PM

Along with 8 other democrats at a Safeway Parking lot in Tuscon Arizona Congresswoman Gofford was shot by a Glen Beck fanatic with a high velocity semi automatic handgun. Fox news reported that someone had unloaded on the crowd where Ms. Gifford was holding a question answer event.

The number of fatialities is uncertain but at least 8 people have arrived at the hospital at this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Democratic Ariz. Congresswomen shot dead
From: maeve
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:23 PM

http://www.cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2011/01/08/arizona-rep-cornell-alumna-reportedly-shot-tuscon


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Subject: RE: BS: Democratic Ariz. Congresswomen shot dead
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:23 PM

One person is in custody after being tackled to the ground.
His weapon may have had a twenty bullet magazine that allowed for the most effective "unloading" in the least time.

Glen Beck has made no comment at this time. Hand Gun sales are up 700% since Obama was lected and has gworn so fast that most dealers have had the experience of running out of ammunition to sell for extened periods of time.

A second ammendment solution has begun in Arizona.


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Subject: RE: BS: Democratic Ariz. Congresswomen shot dead
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:24 PM

A child has been reported being shot dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Democratic Ariz. Congresswomen shot dead
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:32 PM

The gun man shouted before "unloading" and then began shooting the Congresswoman her family and supporters. A security officer did manage to wound the gunman before the crowd pushed him to the ground.

What he shouted is not yet released but I am assuming it will be a familiar right wing phrase.

No comment from Hannity O'Reilly or Glen Beck who have called for for conservatives to rise up and exercise thier 2nd ammendment rights and water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Democratic Ariz. Congresswomen shot dead
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM

Wonder why this took so long...

I mean, here we have an entire fake-news station airing one loon after another threatening to jihad terrorism on people with who they disagree and no one, not one single Repub congressman, senator, judge, dog catcher has ever said, "Wait a minute"... No, Fox, the Tea Party and the Republican party have their fingerprints all over the trigger...

I have warned here on Mudcat over and over that threatenin' these "second amendment" remedies was going to bring this day...

I think John Beohner should be arrested as an accessory...

B~


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Subject: BS: Gabriele Gifford alive in surgury
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM

Congresswoman Gofford is linginf to live after being shot in the head at a democratic political event in a Saeway parking lot in Tuscon Arizona. Many others have been killed by what some say is a lone gunman.


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Subject: RE: BS: 2nd Ammendment - AZ Congresswoman shot
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:42 PM

Donuel, where the f*** do you get the idea Beck or any conservative had any impact on the killer of these people. Or that Beck knows or has been contacted about this murderous tragedy. Your own hate is showing.

So far the only thing said about the alleged perp is that he is young, late teens or early twenties.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:49 PM

Ahh I see the grouping of threads now, thank you.

Hi John, I know by watching the right wing media machine spin their diatribe of revenge and implied violence for 2 years straight.

If by any stretch of imagination the gun man has never heard of Glen Beck, I would then apologize.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:55 PM

http://giffords.house.gov/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:59 PM

The Web is raging right now with curious references to failed vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin after a speech she gave last September criticizing Giffords, a Democrat, for supporting Obamacare. Months earlier on her website, Palin named Giffords as one of 20 Dems in her "target practice" crosshairs.

According to NPR, six members of Giffords' staff were killed in today's attack. According to the Associated Press, 12 people were shot.

Giffords and astronaut husband Mark Kelly, who served in Desert Storm, have two children.

http://trentonian.com/articles/2011/01/08/news/doc4d28b551cbe8d148239504.txt


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Skivee
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:00 PM

FWIW I just tuned in Fox News. Their coverage was reasonable. They retracted an earlier report that the congresswoman had died, explaining that they had obtained what seemed like 3 reliable sources' confirmation. Now it seems that she is in surgery with very serious injuries.


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Subject: Our sensationalist, trigger-happy media
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM

Our so-called "news media" seem to be tripping all over themselves - and the facts - in the attempt to "scoop" their competitors.

I've just read headlines from a number of "reports" on this incident, ranging from Giffords being a "Republican" to a "Democratic Congresswoman" who "was shot dead" and who "is in surgery" in the ICU.

Then, of course, there are the hair-trigger, knee-jerk attempts at "analysis" of what it was about Giffords or the attacker (or Obama, Palin, the Republicans, Glenn Beck, the Democrats, etc.) that prompted the violence.

Here's a wild idea: How about not reporting "the facts" -- much less, analyzing them -- until we know what they are?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM

Cable FOX news has rebroadcast the local Tuscon FOX TV station KGUN
which stated that Gabrielle GIffords' Local office has been subject to repeated violence in the last two years which includes threats and broken windows and doors.

Right wing web sites have targetted the Congresswoman for over 5 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:19 PM

She is, BTW, a Democrat. But that hasn't stopped hordes of internet message board posters from speculating that Obama's socialist brownshirts were somehow behind the shooting because they oppose Jan Brewer's AZ border security measures.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:23 PM

Palin didn't just name Giffords, she had a graphic on her website with sooting targets on a map of the US, each one signifying a politician deemed worthy of 'attack' - the Palinistas will no doubt say the target thing was a metaphor, but is some dumb young far-Right kid going to work that subtlety out ??


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:29 PM

The news has been all over the place. NPR usually takes the care go get it right, but apparently only got the news out first this time, and the reports of Giffords status (dead or alive) still seems to be in question. The university medical center at U of A reports Giffords is in surgery.

The stuff popping up in Twitter are links to the various stupid things put out by Palin and her ilk. There was a map with gunsights that people frowned upon when it appeared, and now it appears to have been a really poor choice of graphic, mean spirited at the very least, inflammatory at the worst.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:30 PM

Expect within the next week several republicans to issue "Why I am not responsible for this shooting" statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM

.... and Americans are afraid to take a vacation in Mexico.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM

Extremist speech incites extremists.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:40 PM

This message was posted, presumably by someone opposed to Gifford's policies (or just her being a Democrat?), last June.

We don't know what motivated the shootings, but Matt Iglesias reported that an anti-Giffords event was held in June with the billing:
"Get on Target for Victory in November.
Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office.
Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly."

Rep. Giffords was also on Sarah Palin's "target list."

As noted earlier, a gun was dropped at a Giffords event in 2009, and her office was vandalized in March."

At least 5 of those shot have died and several others are in critical condition.

Nice having semi-automatics so readily accessible, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:45 PM

Another kook with a gun.

Nothing known about him as yet.
All the speculation about right-wing, Palin map, etc. is nonsense at this time.

John on SC, I'll echo your post.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM

As of a few minutes ago, CNN and FOX both were reporting the congresswoman alive. Let us hope this is true and that she makes a full recovery. A Judge has been confirmed killed, as well as perhaps two or three others, which is sad and unfortunate. Nine others may be in hospital with unsaid wounds.

Donuel, CNN had a feed from KVOA (I think those the call letters), Tucson. The reporter noted that several of her supporters at that rally also had guns, and opined as that may have helped put an end to the shooter's rampage. Wondering out loud, but maybe those supporters had heard Glenn Beck support the 2nd Amendment right to own a firearm for protection. I'm pretty sure he didn't say it was to shoot up meetings and speeches.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM

Well, Sarah, this is what happens when you pal around with terrorists.


The Pallin map on Fox News


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:07 PM

Oh my!~ Terrorists!

Misuse of words, chapter two.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:10 PM

MSNBC reported just a few minutes ago, that the judge was not killed but is in critical condition.
A spokesman for the hospital where Gifford and 9 others were taken reported, just now, that only one of those 10 (a child about age 9) has died. A few are still in surgery, most are in the ICU. He is "about as optimistic as you can be in these circumstances" that Gifford will recover, though it's too early to know the nature of that recovery.   He said that she was "responsive to commands" but that she is under anesthesia at present, so I'm guessing he meant she was conscious and responsive to commands before she was anesthetized for the brain surgery.

A total of 18 people were injured in the attack, according to the Pima County Sherriff's broadcast of a few minutes ago, but several of those were apparently not gunshot wounds (probably injuries from the chaos in the crowd).


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:13 PM

Is it just me, or do other folks feel that when you see someone's name in a thread like this, you don't even have to read what they write, because they've already told you all their opinions?

The congresswoman, wife and mother is in the hospital after being shot. If all you do is talk politics, there's something wrong with your heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:23 PM

Again, the conflicting reports seem to stem from the news media treating reporting as though it was a sprint race of some sort.   There are still conflicting reports as to whether Judge John Roll was killed or not. What is happening is that, as MSNBC is reporting, "the numbers don't add up" when you compare various reports about how many were "shot," how many "injured," and how many have died. But CNN and MSNBC both reported within the last few minutes that Roll had died. It would be a relief to find out that this information too was premature and incorrect.

Jeri, it's not just the Congresswoman. A nine-year-old girl was fatally shot and, apparently Judge Roll too, and there are 8 or 9 others who are still in surgery or in critical condition after surgery. This is a great tragedy for many families and for the people of Arizona. This kind of attack is not going to make their politics or their lives any easier to deal with.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM

I'll come back in a day or two and read this thread. Already I have read somethings that I know we wouldn't have said upon reflection. A horrible crime has been committed by a criminal who apparently has a mental illness. The news isn't complete. The story hasn't been fully told.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:28 PM

For what it's worth, this quote is from an Israeli news site...

"Giffords was elected to Congress in the Democratic sweep in 2006. The first Jewish woman elected to Congress from the state, she made her Jewish identity part of her campaign.

'If you want something done, your best bet is to ask a Jewish woman to do it,' said Giffords, a former state senator, said at the time. 'Jewish women — by our tradition and by the way we were raised — have an ability to cut through all the reasons why something should, shouldn't or can't be done and pull people together to be successful.'

Giffords fought a hard election this year, against the national anti-incumbent, anti-Democratic mood. She tacked to the right of her party on immigration, saying border security was of primary consideration. The election was called in her favor weeks after the vote."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:31 PM

Genie, yep. My complaint is that something this horrible happened, and folks are blaming political parties, or defending them, in an entirely predictable way. People who think aren't so predictable and people who feel don't so easily dismiss the tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

The 22-year-old man accused of the attempted assassination of Gabrielle Giffords has been named as Jared Laughner (or Loughner). Nothing much is known about him although a spooky youtube video has been unearthed attributed to Jared Loughner. The 2:34 mark features a little bit about terrorism. No political affiliation is represented in the video.

VIDEO


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

Giffords WAS a Republican and now is considered by herself and others as a "blue dog Democrat."

My immediate feelings about the shooter is expressed numerically: 3-7-77. But I'll wait and see before saying more.


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Subject: RE: Ariz. Dem. Gabrielle Giffords shot
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM

A terrible piece of news. I think it will take time to get clear information. One account told of two fatalities and another of six. It appears that Gabrielle Giffords has a head injury too, which is never good news. Like everyone else I will be waiting and hoping for the least tragic outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:52 PM

Jeri and Don,
I heard you.
This is a shocking tragedy. A child is dead. A mother and elected official has been shot. What a sad and disgraceful event. The family of the young man who shot the gun have a nightmare ahead of them.
I'll be back when the facts are sorted out and leave the rest of you to carry on your interminable conflict.
Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM

I hate for an incident like this to fan the flames of political rivalry.   On the contrary, I would hope that it would have a sobering effect on hate-filled, violent rhetoric.

Both Gabrielle Gifford and Federal Judge John Roll (who, according to official sources' very recent reports, was fatally shot) had not only received death threats for some of their political policies or decisions (par for the course for judges and politicians), but had been targeted by very public calls for gun violence against them. And it's unlikely that this group assembled in front of a strip mall in Arizona just happened to be chosen as the target of a would-be mass murderer.

This is the most distressing trend in political 'warfare' -- when campaigning, reporting, news analysis, town hall meetings, and judicial remedies are tossed aside in favor of violence.

And what died in this attack, beyond the direct human victims, was another piece of our ability to engage in open, free discussion and debate with our political candidates and representatives. The democratic process of "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" sustained yet another grievous wound.

Will our representatives in legislatures and state & local executive offices now fear to hold town hall gatherings unless we're all subjected to TSA-airport-style screening processes? Will they fear to meet their constituents face to face at all?

I know this kind of violence isn't new, but it's very sad to know that it's so alive and well.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:56 PM

The shooter's politics don't have to figure in. Somebody who is unbalanced can be induced to kill someone else regardless of the shooter's or the victim's politics. That doesn't let the instigators off the hook. This woman was on rightwing hitlists for some time and it seems unlikely that didn't play a role in pushing this guy to do what he did whether he was politically sympathetic to them or not. That's one resaon you have to be careful what you say in public because someone could take you up on it for ANY reason at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

Jeri, I appreciate your concerns. However, some of us have expressed concern for Ms Gifford and others. In fairness, there has only been blame assigned (to Beck, Boehner, Palin) and to Mr.Laugner, where it properly belongs. Nobody has defended any parties to this act, either directly or indirectly, although, I and a few others have chastised those whose whose prejudices place blame where it ain't.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM

What bothers me and I can't let it go is that Palin's words were deliberately chosen--"reload". You hear these people saying things as "take aim" or "Let them have it" without any specific appeal to violence but it seems to me that they are, in their own way, recruiting a nut to do what they know sane, reasonable people are not going to do. It's a beauty for them because by doing this, they don't have to accept responsibility. No real connection can be found.

"Hey, I never said to kill someone. This guy was a nut acting on his own! He didn't even have any political leanings!! You can't pin this on me!"

And it's true--we can't. And they know it and that is why they do it. The rhetoric is unmistakable. People like Palin and these other nutjobs are trying to push someone to kill their opponents. If it works--great. If it doesn't--no harm, no foul. And in the end, they are untouchable.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM

First step, let's hope she survives in good enough condition to resume her seat and her life.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

Well, Ms. Palin has pulled the crosshairs graphic from her website, so I guess she gets the connection.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

Sarah Palin made it political when she released a map of the US with gun site graphics and the names of politicians that included Gifford's. You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind. In my mind she's accessory to murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:30 PM

There is no evidence that the shooter was either a right-wing extremist, or a left-wing extremist. From what I can gather, so far, he is simply a nut.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:39 PM

I can't believe it ... all this political right wing, left wing bull shit argument bantering when 18 human beings have been tragically shot, 6 of them fatally, 1 of them a 9 year old child.

Shame of it all ....

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

josepp, You've stated the points very well.

DougR, forget the "left"/"right" labels. Loughner's bizarre convoluted "logic" ramblings DO cry out against "the government" and seem to be calling for violent resistance to such.

True, some mass murderers do seem to choose their targets 'at random', but it doesn't sound like that's what happened here (regardless of whether he leans "left" or "right" or has ever paid attention to Palin, Beck, etc.).

The rhetoric of calling for fighting political battles and "taking out" opponents or officials via guns too often, understandably, disinhibits the nut cases who otherwise might express their frustrations in less lethal ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

......sadness..... in many ways.... I hope the injured recover.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:48 PM

number 6, the left/right politicisation of violent crime didn't start in Tucson. We're just now seeing what the Tea Party has been saying it wanted all along. Watering the tree of liberty with blood. Finding a 2nd Amendment solution. If ballots don't work, turn to bullets. What we're doing here is not politicizing. We're seeing what comes of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:51 PM

Here is a statement from Steny Hoyer, House Minority Whip:

"My prayers are with Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, her family, her staff, and all the victims of today's shooting in Tucson, Arizona. Congresswoman Giffords is a devoted and insightful public servant, and a passionate advocate for her constituents—but more than that, she is my dear friend. To all those who are privileged to know Gabby Giffords, who know her spirit and graciousness in public life, today's cowardly attack is devastating.

But it is equally devastating to every American—to everyone who cares about our democracy. Our form of government, like all human things, is imperfect and flawed; but one of its greatest virtues is its power to resolve questions of the greatest import without violence. An attack on a member of that government—of whatever party or whatever views—is an attack on that principle, in which every American has a stake."

The second half is very important.

And, to help set the record straight about the casualties, here is Attorney General Eric Holder's statement:

"Today's tragedy in Arizona was a senseless act of violence that has already resulted in devastating loss, including the death of Chief United States District Court Judge John Roll and four other individuals and the wounding of Representative Gabrielle Giffords and a number of others. All of those who were killed or injured and their families are in our thoughts and prayers.

"As the President said, FBI Director Mueller is traveling to Arizona to help coordinate the investigation. The FBI is working jointly with local law enforcement to investigate today's events, and I have directed Department prosecutors and law enforcement officials to use every resource necessary to investigate this tragedy. I want to assure the people of Arizona and every American that we will hold accountable anyone responsible for these heinous acts."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM

Jeri, well said. I remember when Columbine happened and Mudcatters' first concerns were for the people there...were they okay...send them good thoughts, pray, etc. now it seems most just do drive by/point and stare/spew out some hit air..etc....like looking at a train wreck and putting the blame with no firsthand knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM

I also think that we should all sit back and wait a bit. There will be plenty of time to discuss the facts, when there are facts to discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM

Howard Fineman has expressed, better than I did, the point about the biggest, longest-enduring casualty of today's mass shooting:

The End Of Access (Howard Fineman, 1-8-2011)

Excerpts:
"WASHINGTON -- The shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is a watershed event in many ways, some of which we cannot yet know, but one of the clearest and simplest is this: Congress and its members are about to be permanently quarantined, physically isolated, from the people it and they represent.

Thirty years ago, there was no such thing as security on Capitol Hill or for members. Members of the public were free to roam the halls, and police presence was practically invisible ... and even the leadership rarely had any form of protection.

The Hill was the very model of the People's Place -- and in that respect it was an inspirational symbol of our democracy.

Congress began to close in on itself in 1983. [A bomb explosion in 1993, a shooting in 1998, the 9/11 attacks and an anthrax attack in 2003 each led to tighter security measures & greater restriction of access to public officials & buildings.]

...

New even more restrictive rules are now inevitable. It's even possible that the general public will be banned from the hallways of the Capitol Complex, at least at certain times and under certain circumstances.

As for personal protection, that is likely to be increased substantially. For the last year or two, some House members and senators have had unpublicized but substantial security details dispatched to their side when deemed warranted.

...

But rather than have extensive details for each member, the members are likely to change their behavior -- which means they will stay behind closed doors here in DC and in their home districts and states.

... "

This is especially likely, and especially sad, because today's small, informal "Congress On Your Corner" meeting between Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and a fairly small gathering of her constituents was a continuation of this practice which she began back in 2007.

From the press release from Gifford's office re today's gathering:

"Congress on Your Corner" allows residents of Arizona's 8th Congressional District to meet their congresswoman one-on-one and discuss with her any issue, concern or problem involving the federal government.

Giffords has hosted numerous "Congress on Your Corner" events since taking office in January 2007. As in the past, the congresswoman's staff will be available to assist constituents."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

And that's just what terrorism is: an attempt to change the political workings of a country through fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

Kat, I think what most of us are "blaming" is the culture of violence - especially when it interferes with the open practice of our democratic processes. That, and maybe the too-easy access to weapons that can wound or kill a dozen or more people in a matter of a few seconds.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:22 PM

Tea Party and Palin's comin'
They're getting what they asked for
Their rhetoric spoke of gunnin'
Ten shot at the grocery store


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Gee, guy was probably a Muslim, eh? They're the only ones would do this sort of thing. Right, Glenn, Sarah, et. al.?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM

Febrile politics of Giffords shooting Seems it's not just Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM

What progressives need to do as this act of domestic terrorism is evaluated is not not buy into any bullshit mythology that both sides need to clean up their act...

This is purely bad behavior on one side and one side only and it ain't been on the left or by Dems...

So to my progressive friends: We don't owe the right anything here except a demand that they shut down the terrorism that they, in their silence, condone...

BTW, I am severely pissed off at the Repubs right now... They allowed thugs and goons to intimidate vote counters in Florida in the 2000 "selection" of a looser and they quietly cheered on these same goons and thugs last summer during those town meetings... Terrorism is part of the Republican Party and if they keep it up they will eventually piss off enough folks on the left where the bullets will be going both ways...

The saddest part about this is that there are rednecks out there thinking this guy is some fucking folk hero!!!

The ball is firmly in the Repubs court now!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:06 PM

If you find a map with crosshairs drawn on it and a person's name and words like "3 down 17 more to go!" and "Don't retreat, reload!" and that person whose name is on that map is murdered, how can you tell me this had nothing to do with anything??

And her map was NOT taken down, I just looked at the link I gave earlier in the thread and it is still there. People, at this point, have EVERY RIGHT to assume there is a connection--would be crazy not to!

And, no, sorry but I'm not content to sit around mourning over the victims. And stop telling people that if you're not doing this you must be some kind of moral defective--fuck you.

These people who clalm to be for "the people" are turning us against each other to the point where I'm afraid the toothpaste is not going to go back in the tube. We are looking at one more clear sign that our democracy is deteriorating--that we are turning in the terrorist state that we're always pointing a finger at the Muslims about. And that's far more of a serious issue than any of the victims--sorry but that's the truth. This is far bigger than any of them.

This shooting shouldn't just make you sad, it should make you goddamn mad!!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM

And I am...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Bobert, while most of the violence in this country against public officials has been, as far as we know, done by right-wingers, not all of it has.   Squeaky Fromme and Mary Jane what's-her-name weren't right-wingers, nor was the paranoid Ted Kaczynski.    And The Weathermen, who were planting bombs back in the '60s weren't "conservatives" either.

No one side of the extremes of political views has a lock on assassinations or other politically motivated violence, much less the violence of the insane.

I agree that most of what we've heard in recent years about "watering the tree of liberty with blood" or putting political opponents "in the cross hairs" or resorting "to second-Amendment remedies" if the ballot box doesn't produce the desired outcome have come from the "right," but that doesn't mean it's basically a left-v.-right wing issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM

For what it's worth, this quote is from a political website...

"Interestingly, The Atlantic picked up on Loughner noting Mein Kampf is one of his favorite books, and that Rep. Giffords is Jewish. Also at The Atlantic, Andrew Sullivan is trying to tie Sarah Palin to this violent act, but has to admit that Loughner isn't exactly the Tea Party type. Especially after finding a twitter feed of one of Loughner's former friends, who describes him as left-wing, a political radical, anti-flag and a pot head. She also said he had met Giffords before and called her stupid. He certainly doesn't sound like a political conservative. It sounds like he's always been kind of weird, and perhaps had some kind of psychotic break. We'll find out soon enough."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM

MSNBC talks to Rep. Gabrielle Gifford about the death threats, vandalism and harassments. Aired 3/25/10.

"Sarah Palin has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they've gotta realize there are consequences to that action."

MSNBC Video


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM

But josepp is right: This horrendous event is far more than just a personal tragedy for a few people and their friends and families. It is more than just another mass murder. It is a frontal attack on our democracy and our freedom to be actively involved in it.   That is a more far-reaching reason for grief - and outrage - than is the death of or injury to 18 people by a lunatic, as sad as that is in itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM

2000... Repubs lire goons to terrorize poll worker during the Florida recount

2008... Participants yell "Hang him" regarding Obama repeatedly at Palin rallies... Repub reaction: Who cares???

2009... Repub thugs trained to disrupt town hall meeting on health care reform

2009... Don't retreat, reload

2009... "You lie!!!"

2010... Cross hairs on Palin websites

2010... "2nd amendment remedies"

2000-2010 NRA pumps Million$$$ into the Repub Party...

Sorry, folks... What we have here is a systematic assault on the Democratic Party and progressives everywhere using bib Laden terrorist tactics... The US Taliban is here and we had better face up to it... John Chickenshit Beohner ain't gonna take 'um on... He's just a washrag crybabby...

Now I'm not too sure how we are gonna turn this around but if we don't this is gonna be messier than anyone can imagine... Today is a snapshot into our future if we can't stop Redneck Nation and Redneck Nation is poised to fuck US all up... Serious buisness...

Too much tooth paste out of the tube here...

I've already fired off a letter to the Washington Post saying purdy much what I've said here... I mean, fir a bunch of aging folk singers, that's about all we can do... But we all need to do somethin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM

My shock, rage, anger, outtrage and profound sadness is surely evident in my intial remarks within the first 20 minutes of this mass assasination.

The Sheriff of Pima County Arizona Clarance Dupnik expressed the very thoguhts I have about this tradjedy by addressing the question of why this tradjecy occured.
Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik says "Arizona has become the capitol for prejudice and bigotry" Certain radio and TV personalities continue to incite fear hatred and violence that requires all people in this nation to engage in soul searching.

-------------

In the 200+ years of this country we have had a fairness doctrine for our media for a brief ten years. After Ronald Reagan abolished this doctrine we have seen certain dedicated radio and TV networks driving a unique form of broadcasting that is formulated to poison the minds of the public with mental pictures of a need for violence and murder in the political arena.

As tragid shock that this incident has cut me to the bone, it is not without an expected antipation of horrible acts by people who are immersed in that world of shock jock conservative rhetoric.


Sneator McCain condemned the acts today but said he did not know why.
Obama condemned the murders today but said he did not know why.
I know why instinctively and so does Sheriff Dupnik. So do you.

My wife argues that the country has never been without vitriolic media yet I say that the advent of Clear Channel and FOX has created a 24/7 platform that is unpredicented.

I monitor our local clear channel station AM 630 WMAL and I will not repeat the horrible ideas accusations and lies they broadcast 24 hours a day. They are not a saturday nite live format of parody. They are mean and mean what they say. They drive a form of white power that goes beyond the propganda of the brown shirts.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:16 PM

I viewed the murder suspect's web posts and found that he demanded a repeal of all of America's recent treasonous laws. The sustained threatsm assaults and vandalism aimed at Congresswoman Giffords is a well known fact.

In my opinion he is among the least informed people but has the essence of a "patriot who is called upon to water the tree of liberty with blood."

Much of the call to kill dmeocrats, Obama and progressives is done in a manner which is by way of attribution, or by an image or direct suggestion of what is honorable. This should not be viewed as making the speaker of such remarks immune from culpability when someone does what they imply.

(I hope my dyslexic affliction that is evident in my unedited writing does not detract from the core meaning and heartfelt sentiments that I share here)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:09 PM

"Special Comment" by Keith Olberman was his best to date... Maybe a little conciliatory for accpetin' any blame on the left (we didn't do the crime and don't deserve to do no time) but...

...as good, and better, than Keith has ever been...

Recommend tryin' to find it on line...

Worth it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:44 PM

At the EXACT same moment Olbermann on MSNBC was calling for the repudiation of Palin, Beck, and all networks and individuals who advocate murderous political rhetoric, FOX news had an analyst from the FBI stating that the alleged killer was a lone delusional paranoid acting on his own.


As much as I hope we all want this violence to pull back from the edge, it is likely that some will feel emboldened and proud of today's events. The country like the microcosm of this mudcat forum will have those who will defend the state of right wing rhetoric today and on the other side there are people who want the blood threats to stop. When on a razor's edge, people and ideas can get cut down the middle. TOday's events will further a divide, no matter how you slice it.

Today the Pima county Tea Party spokesperson denounced the vilence but refused to make any change to their rhetoric, methods or symbology that they have employed since the health care town hall meetings, which included the display of guns. Gabby Giffords
opponent in the latest election held an event in which you were allowed to fire a real M-16 in celebration to get rid of Gabby Giffords.

We may not want to return to the days of duels or near fatal canings in Congress, or the violence of John Brown or the radical left of the 60's, BUT the current right wing violence is a titanic which will be slow to turn or stop because of all the inertia behind this ill fated ship.

Eventually the right wing violence will ebb but remain a historic monument of a rightious threat to all critics.

This week Glen Beck taught that the first slave owner in America was a black man and that the 3/5's compromise was to enable a slow abolition of slavery. All his lessons are designed to make white people feel proud and unburdoned from any guilt from a history that has been warped by liberals to disrespect the white race. THis week he had a picture of Obama with writing above that said "Ceasar dead in 100 AD" No it may not make any sense, but the intent is as clear as an automatic pistol fired into a political crowd of 34 people today, in which a 9 year old girl, a judge, friends and a Congressperson were shot. The intent is hate, violence and death.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:02 PM

Shout it from the rooftops:

SO, GOP, ARE YOU READY TO TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC YET?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:21 PM

The sad thing, mouse, is that I fear that they really don't give a rat's ass... Yeah, they'll do the perfunctory "blah,blah,blah" but they really couldn't care less...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:48 PM

Bobert's right. This will have no effect on the violent rhetoric and tactics that these people are engaging that caused this incident.

For them to say they aren't contributing to any nut's murder fantasy is disingenuous. They are doing the same thing the anti-abortion nuts do by posting a doctor's name, address, workplace and where his kids go to school and then tell the press, "Well, we aren't trying to scare or intimidate anyone." I have had a belly full of that goddamn crap! Goddamn insult to my intelligence.

And I wish certain people here could get it through their heads that politics has nothing to do with it. It's this behavior of targeting people, making vague threats against them and then crying crocodile tears when violence breaks out is what I am condemning. I don't give a damn what the politics are. I'm not blaming Palin because she is a politician, I am blaming her because I feel her tactics and rhetoric are what caused this.

But for the right to tone down this rhetoric is, in their minds, a show of weakness and an admission of culpability. They will decry calls to tone it down as an attack on their constitutional right to free speech and will become even more vitriolic and divisive as ever. These are reactionaries--always remember that. They have little in the way of shame, humility or introspection. They react automatically in the worst possible way to anyone's criticism. The worse the incident, the worse they will react.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM

""The intent is hate, violence and death.""

I realize one can only speculate, at this point. But, could the intent also have been to silence someone who has a different vision?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:37 AM

Well, some of you seem to really be on top of it. Without knowing much beyond the newscorps' coverage it's safe to assume that this was a rightwinger 'cause we all know that only rightwingers are nut jobs. Without hearing a word from Beck or O'Reilly we already know that they support the nut job but they will pretned to be against him. The gun did the actual crime as it forced its way into the hand of the nut job and made him pull the trigger. Yup, no prejudice or bias here. With such unbiased and clear thinking as demonstrated in this thread how could anyone stumble over the truth as do those nut job conservatives, murders at the heart, everyone. And we all know that Sarah Palin was somehow manipulating this young man and others like him. She must be at the core of the whole episode. We ought to take them all out, line 'em up against a wall and let 'em have it the way they want to do us. We can start with GW as was discussed in the thread about executing him. We don't need no stinking trials. I'm sure Congrsswoman Giffords will agree with the sentiment expressed in this thread.

Now in a completely different vein (for some who might be slow on the uptake), my prayers and thoughts are and will continue to be with the families affected by this horrendous tragedy. I pray for the Congresswoman's speedy and full recovery and I asked that those who lost loved ones find that peace that passes all understanding and comfort in their terrible losses.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM

""Clarence Dupnik, sheriff of Pima county, said Miss Giffords was the target of a gunman whom he described as mentally "unstable" but not "insane".

The sheriff pointed to the vitriolic political rhetoric that has consumed the country as he denounced the shooting that claimed several of his friends as victims, including U.S. District Judge John Roll. The judge attended Mass on Saturday morning like he does every day before stopping by to say hello to his good friend Giffords.

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," the sheriff said. "And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry." ""




"" Her father, Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his daughter had any enemies. "Yeah," he told The New York Post. "The whole Tea Party."

In an interview last year with the MSNBC, Miss Giffords referred to Mrs Palin's target map a map of electoral targets

"When people do that, they've got to realize that there's consequences to that action," she said. ""

Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8248728/Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-Police-searching-for-


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:20 AM

Ok, Ed T, Sheriff Dupnik, was obviously emotionally impacted by the event and that is wholly understandable. He was trying to communicate as much as he could without compromising the ongoing investigation. He expressed a personal opinion, which I will grant is probably a considered opinion but he is not an expert in mental health.

As for vitriol, neither side has a patent on it. Much vitriol is expressed here at the 'cat from time to time but it is not recognized or owned by those various members as it is "their" vitriol and therefore, somehow, exempt from criticism.

I cannot help but relate to the elder Mr. Giffords as a fellow human being and I am sure that is exactly how he felt. I also understand that it is a sentiment and not a statement of fact that "the whole Tea Party" was his daughter's enemy. Factually that is incorrect on many levels, would you not agree?

As for Palin's use of a crosshair on the "aims" and goals for the causes she champions, she is not the first (although she may be the last) who has used such a symbol, from either party. Most rational people recognized that figures of speech and common analogies such as "taking aim" or "on target" or "I've got him in my sites" etc. are not meant to be inflamatory nor are such symbols as bullseyes and crosshairs (Target stores for instance). They are part of the culture and language and sane people get that, though they may be opposed to such. How about, let's all wait until we have a trial of the facts and learn what this young man had in mind before we launch into inflamatory vitriol of our own.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM

""How about, let's all wait until we have a trial of the facts and learn what this young man had in mind before we launch into inflamatory vitriol of our own.""

Sounds good with me, from both sides of the issue. I am merely posting related information (what little exists at this point), and people are free to consider and discuss it or not.

And, note that I have not launched into "inflamatory vitriol" on this unfortunate circumstance, nor the broader issues raised by some.

IMO, posting news items. and related comments, and observations from these sources, and people closer to the situation than folks here contributes to just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM

Yeah well that's what happens when you think guns are clever.
The right to bear arms ! What a crock of shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:10 AM

Slag, yes, it's true that people across the political spectrum, and usually without intending to incite violence, use metaphors such as "taking aim at" an opponent or "annihilating" them or "taking them down" - even "burying" or "destroying" them. Such metaphors are common both in sports and in politics.

But wasn't it Tea Party darling Sharron Angle who recently advised that if "we" didn't achieve our aims via the ballot, "we" should consider "second-Amendment remedies?"   And the charts that Palin has posted on her website, I think, go beyond the common usage of "destroy your opponent" metaphor.    There ARE websites that pretty much do call for the assassination of abortion providers, Muslim leaders, gays, and various other groups or individuals, and there are people who cheer when such people are actually gunned down.   No, it's not always people on a particular 'end' of the political spectrum, but today, anyway, the loud advocacy of gun ownership and usage and the opposition to any sort of regulation of such does come pretty much from the "conservatives" or libertarians.   And the vast majority of rhetoric I read or hear today that paints the opposition as some sort of demons or vermin also seems to be coming from the "right."   

Anyway, I think it's important to realize that if/when you announce that you think "somebody should take out" or "get rid of" some politician via "revolution" or "second Amendment remedies," you're baiting some nut to take that literally.

Oh, and I don't consider condemnation of violent rhetoric to be "launch[ing] into inflammatory vitriol," either.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Smedley
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:26 AM

Well said, Genie.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM

9 year old Christina Taylor Green (killed) had been invited by her neighbour to attend the event, because she had just been elected to her student council. Christina was born on 9/11 and was included in the book Faces of Hope, babies born on 9/11.

My heart is breaking for her family and friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:59 AM

The US government's "drone warfare" kills thousands of innocents.
The US has a history of political assasination like no other country on earth, not just of its own politicians, but covert assasination attempts on the leaders of other nations and political systems....all this before the "Tea Party" was even thought of.

This seems like the action of a deranged young man, the likes of which are to be found in any society.
Considering the nature of US politics and the lack of political understanding in supporters of Both US political Parties, It is a miracle that events like this are more commonplace.

That being said, the folks directly affected by this tragedy deserve all our sympathy and good wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM

Forgive me if I state the obvious, but the US emphasis on the use of firearms these days comes almost entirely from the lunatic right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM

What Genie said, Slag...

There is a world of difference between the "argumments" that the left makes and the "tactics" of the right...

The left owes no one an apology... We may make impassioned "arguments" for policies we believe in but we haven't been the one's using *terrorism* as a political tactic...

This is alot like an unarmed Rodney King sayin' "Can't we all just get along" while being brutally beaten by armed men...

No sir... If you think that the left is the problem here then I'd suggest reality therapy...

(Oh, Boberdz... That sounds like, ahhhh, mean words...)

Oh really???

Want some mean words, check out the calls to violence that is comin' outta the FOX Terrorism Network...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM

There have been many incidents like this in countries that ban hand guns. The poor will always be with us, and so will the whackos.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM

Re. gun laws - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#100


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

Yeah, Capt'n, but never have so many whackos had so much cover from a major political party...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:36 AM

Perhaps America just isn't ready for a black president.

You're not going to get a secular, industry friendly leader who cares about human rights elected in Iran or Iraq.

Given the composition of your country's population, perhaps its just a step too far for America - a black president who wants to sort out your healthcare system.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM

Well, Alan, one thing is fir sure... There are way too many Americans who are not ready for a black president... Or a Jewish president... Or a gay president... Or a woman president... Or anyone who is left handed president... Or people who wear flannel shirts president...

I mean, what we have is a sub-species of Epsilons who have no ability to think critically, are vastly uneducated and seem to think that they have all the answers are ready to impose their answers on everyone else regardless of the means...

I, for one, am not ready to turn our *govern*ment over to these people just because they have guns... I mean, I have guns, too, but I also have critical thinking skills and an education...

I mean, let's get real... America has it's own Taliban...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM

The very subject of this thread and from reading through these posts disturbs me ... and convinces more that the U.S. is a nation of very frightened, extremely paranoid people ... a nation that has lost all reason, a polarized nation where right and wrong is defined by republican, or democrat, right or left and humanity is pretty well all but forgotten.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

This past Tuesday in the New Hampshire House, Republicans lifted the ban on firearms in Representatives Hall and surrounding areas. Firearms have been banned in the chamber since 1971. And they repealed a year old ban on weapons in the State House area.

Guns Welcomed Back

Back in the late '60s when I regularly came home from work (in downtown Milwaukee to a west 'burb) very late via two city buses with a layover on a deserted street corner in the middle, I carried a .25 Browning because, if I was going to be headlines, it wasn't going to be because I was found in a field someplace. I haven't carried one since.

I cannot think of a reason why state legislators need to carry weapons in the State House. I don't want to see all gun ownership illegal, but I certainly don't want everyone to be armed, either, and I don't want weapons in public places.

Ach!

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM

Bullshit, bILL...

This bad behavior is 99.9% on the right side of the divide...

That is reality!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:06 AM

Bad behavior? Here is what it's like on the border with Mexico, which is not that far from Tucson...


7:15am 10/14/09 -- Decapitated Woman Marks Disturbing Turn in Juarez Violence: As of last week, 100 girls and women had been killed this year in border city.

"Violence against women in the Mexican border city of Juarez is unfortunately nothing new, but the discovery of a decapitated woman in a public place last Sunday marks a disturbing new development in the violence-ravaged city, two experts told the El Paso Times.

'This is the first time a woman has been decapitated and her body displayed in this manner," Julia Monarrez Fragoso, a professor at the Colegio de la Frontera in Juarez who has spent 15 years researching the murder of women in that city, told the Times. 'It is frightening ... the civil society cannot and should not become accustomed to this kind of violence.'

The woman whose body was discovered Sunday next to a plastic bag containing her severed head still hadn't been identified late Tuesday, and authorities were waiting for relatives to show up at the morgue to identify the body, the Times said.

Monarrez said that as of last week, 100 girls and women had been killed in Juarez since the beginning of the year, a record for the violence-wracked border city, and more than 600 women's deaths have been reported since 1993, the paper reported.

'Decapitations of women are rare,' Sergio Gonzalez Rodriguez, an editor of the Reforma newspaper in Mexico City who has studied the phenomenon of decapitation in Mexico's ongoing drug cartel wars, told the Times.

'Beheadings are associated with the Zetas, enforcers for the Gulf drug cartel, who aligned themselves with the (Carrillo Fuentes) drug cartel in Jaurez. Officials have found evidence that some Zetas carry out human sacrifices and beheadings in honor of the 'santa muerte,' Gonzalez told the paper.

The woman who was found Sunday had a tattoo of 'santa muerte' (holy death) on her lower back, as well as a tattoo of the name 'Claudia', the Times said.

The santa muerte cult mixes the worship of ancient Mexican pagan deities, variations of santeria and the reported visions of a witch doctor in Orizaba in the state of Vera Cruz and appears to glorify criminal behavior, according to the Times.

'These horrifying crimes represent a disturbing degree of human degradation that has spread throughout Juarez and other parts of Mexico, and which contradict the authorities' claims that everything is under control,' Gonzalez told the Times."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:07 AM

I suspect many government representatives (especially left leaning)are reconsidering unsecured discussions with citizens in the community, and revamping their security provisions.
Hopefully, this does not signal an end to local community discussions of this type...but, maybe they will become a rarer thing someday?

It only takes one nut, with an axe to grind. Nuts can easily be encouraged or provokes. I suspect they can always find a victim, no matter what the age.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

So, pdq, are you blaming Democrats or progressives for that??? If so, you are delusional...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM

Yeah, it's the public's favorite gripe: "You never see these politicians out here in the community until election time then they're shaking everybody's hand like he's their best friend."

Now you can't launch that accusation. They are now justified not to come out and meet you.

But my blaming Palin has nothing to do with politics. I'm not particularly left-leaning. I have to call it the way I see it. If you publicly target people exhortng the public to "reload" and "take em out" you are engaging in a dangerous tactic. I would call it irresponsible but only if you never expected anything to happen. If you were trying to get something to happen and something does then you weren't irresponsible but you are guilty of murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM

That is the difference here, josz, that the right pretends not to get... It's one thing to argue politics... That is part of one's civic responsibility... It's quite another to use language that promotes violence... Sarah Palin is very much responsible for what happened yesterday... The entire Republican Party which until this happened was silent on threats of violence is responsible... They cannot hide from that...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:21 PM

O don't think it's bullshit Bobert.

"I shouted out
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

It is over 300 miles from Tucson to Juarez.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM

Tucson is about 70 miles north of the Mexican border. Essentially, it is part of the "war zone". The young shooter spent over half of his years attending violent public schools, doing drugs and listeneng to violent lyrics coming from radios and lowrider cars. No wonder he is "damaged goods".


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM

pdq - shut up until you actually have a clue.

~ Becky from Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:08 PM

There have been about 10,000 murders along the border with Mexico in the last few years. Yes, mostly on the other side, but not all.

I was alway told that every life has the same value, no matter what station that person has in life.

There is justifiable anger at this sensless act of violence against a elected official, but where is the outrage at the slaughter that goes on every day? Perhaps some lives are considered more valuable by some fools?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:14 PM

Tucson is not in Mexico.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:37 PM

///That is the difference here, josz, that the right pretends not to get... It's one thing to argue politics... That is part of one's civic responsibility... It's quite another to use language that promotes violence... Sarah Palin is very much responsible for what happened yesterday... The entire Republican Party which until this happened was silent on threats of violence is responsible... They cannot hide from that...///

Yes, the republican party bears responsibility on this one. They let this kids of shenanigans go on for years--the violent shoot-em-up rhetoric, the hatespeech, the veiled and not-so-veiled racist comments directed at Obama--they allowed it, they nurtured it, they encouraged it. So let them reap what they have sown. They can't say this is not what they wanted. If it wasn't then why all the violent 2nd amendment remedies, reload rhetoric? It's exactly what they were bucking for and consequences be damned so I say they should be castigated in public, have their careers ruined and possibly face charges if anything can be proven.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:47 PM

No party is responsible, there is a rise in crazies an nothing more. Back in Teddy Roosevelt's day the party bantering was every bit as bad as today. The issue is the nut balls we have . I am so sick of the innocent people that continue to be victims of such insanity. Maybe it is time for all good people to figure out how to defend themselves, get some training and get an eye for security threats where ever they go. It is a sad world we live in. Get a concealed carry permit.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM

I believe that one of the justices of the Supreme Court of the United States said it best: "Freedom of speech does not extend to yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater." The issue here is incitement...and the responsibilities which go with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

Thanks, oldude. It's nice to hear from a grownup occasionally.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:06 PM

Well, gol danged, folks... Lets just line up every Democrat or progressive and shoot 'um all 'cause pdq is pissed off about the shit goin' on on the Mexican border???

Not!!!

I absolutely do not get yer logic here, pdq... Are you actually making excuses for what happened yesterday???

And if you are then are your Taliban dues paid up because that is the kinda of thinking that permeates Taliban thinking...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM

Hmmm.....yeah, great solution, give everyone a gun....that should do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:20 PM

Need a new bumper sticker:

Guns Don't Kill People
The TEA PARTY Kills People

Loughner doesn't seem to have exhibited any behavior more bizzare than the Weeper Of The House does.

justices of the Supreme Court... shouting fire

That was Justice Holmes - not even CLOSE to being "left wing"- who also said that taxes are the price we pay for civilized society.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:21 PM

'The very subject of this thread and from reading through these posts disturbs me ... and convinces more that the U.S. is a nation of very frightened, extremely paranoid people ... a nation that has lost all reason, a polarized nation where right and wrong is defined by republican, or democrat, right or left and humanity is pretty well all but forgotten.'

To be honest, you've got plenty to be paranoid about. As we found to our cost in Northern Ireland, with political violence - the genie is a damn tricky thing to get back in the bottle. You see nutcase groups will give it a push, politicians will use it, other parties will see a business opportunity.

Without the efforts of Bill Clinton we'd probably still be in a hell of a mess over here. And we had gun control over here.

It all starts with immoderate language and abuse of political debate by firebrands. In NI we had Paisley, Thatcher and the young Gerry Adams (he got older and wiser). Over there you have Palin - don't worry someone will see an opportunity and start giving it back in the other direction. Then the shit will really hit the fan.

So take a stand - it means ordinary decent people have got to stand up and be counted, and demand change.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM

Palin aide, Rebecca Mansour, attempting to spin the gunsights on the map as surveyor's symbols.

http://www.slate.com/BLOGS/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/01/09/palin-spox-targets-on-sarahpac-map-were-actually.aspx


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM

olddude, a lot of garbage in this thread. As you say, absolutely nothing has pointed to any party or group influencing the mind of the shooter.

Many of these crazies, including this one, give out signals of their sickness, but little is done to control or treat them.

Arizona is a divided state politically, as much of the country, but most of us are satisfied with rhetoric and political action.

The shooter's twisted mind (and possibly that of others- police are looking for another) will be exposed as investigations progress.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:41 PM

Exactly, Alan...

That is my greatest fear... The right has been bullyin' and threatening the left for a long time now and there will come a time when the left has had enough of the right's boorish bullyin' and shoot back...

No, bILL,

We did not kill the Kennedies... The right wing did... Just as they have and continue to do... There are people out there in America who consider this shooter a "patriot"??? Okay, maybe the4y are sorry that the 9 year girl got killed but in their thinkin', "Hey, that girl shouldn't have been there to talk with that Democratic congresswoman..."

*********************************************************************

So, back to the discussion and sincere hopes that we won't have any other posters making excuses for the shooter...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM

That whole "dial it back" Jon Stewart thing makes even more sense now.

The problem with the mentally ill folks like Loughner is that nearly none of them actually kill people, and mental illness often isolates people so no one might notice anyway. Just opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM

Give every law abiding reasonable and legally licensed person allowed to carry one .. yup it does work. Heck crime in my area by gun violence and home invasion. Virtually doesn't exist. Good chance that 80 year old grandma is packing and knows how to use it


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:40 PM

Statistics don't back that up, Ol'ster... More people are killed in houses where there are guns than in ones without...

We are already the most heavily armed developed nation in the world and we have, by far, the highest per capita murder rates... Gettin' even more guns into the population is not an answer but a prescription for even more murders...

I agree, Jeri... We do need to dial it back... Speech that is bigoted needs to be called... Speech that advocates using violence needs to be called... Speech at inappropriate places such as Rep. W@ildon yellin' "You lie" during the State of the Union address needs to be dialed back... Speech from the minority leader in Congress that you wouldn't wnat your children to use as in "Hell no, we won't" needs to be dialed back...

I'd challenge anyone on the right to post examples of the kinds of speech that Dems and those of us on the left think needs to be dialed back...

(They just don't want to hear anything outta ya'll, Boberdz... What don't you get about that???)

Okay, I understand that, Anon, but in a democracy aren't we permitted to to have opinions and believe in them with any level of passion as long as we aren't promoting violence???

(See, Boberdz... It's this way... The right has been bullyin' so long that it no longer thinks you are a right to say a thing so just "Shut the fuck up"...)

What if I don't???

(Then it's got a bullet with yer name on it...)

Hmmmmmmmmmm???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Old Timer
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM

Very likely this young man has been on the path to disaster for years. At some point he was rewired to explode and someone was going to be hurt. The gun was a tool of convenience and the Congress woman was a target of choice. The Judge and the little girl and the others where targets by virtue of their being there. Nobody but the demons in Laugher's mind told him to do this. How and who he perceived the demons to be had nothing to do with who Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh are or their own brand of aberrant politics.

Timothy McVeigh's weapon of choice was a rental truck, diesel fuel, and fertilizer. Trucks, fuel, and fertilizer in that part of Arizona are as easy to obtain as is an auto loading pistol. The point is the depth of murder and mayhem is limited only by imagination and not the availability of weapons. Imagine the carnage that a tractor trailer
loaded with nothing at all could have done to that crowd of people.

I don't like Glenn, Sarah, and Rush even a little bit. They are guilty of a few things but not this crime. I believe his was the work of a mentally ill man and perhaps another, nobody else.

Old Timer


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:45 PM

Genie, right. Bobertz, the point is thi is not a political event. The guy is a whack job. His rant could have been about the CIA or Martians contolling his mind. This is about mental illness and it is wrong for anyone of any political stripe to take off on their favorite opponent. The need is to reign in the political and focus positive support for the victims and loved ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM

Would a couple of aides carrying have taken the guy out before he did any damage?

A politician must rub shoulders with the crowd; danger can't be wholly avoided, but some protection should be provided.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM

The point is, Slag, that this was an assassination attempt of a federally elected congressman... Not some whack job in the tower in Dallas... Major difference... She was his target...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:22 PM

don't really know the stats bobster, you are most likely right. I think it has a lot to do with the culture where you were brought up. Guns in my area is like tractors, they are respected and not abused. However I can't help thinking if one law abiding armed citizen was there, something less than 18 people would have been shot. Oh you won't be able to stop the first few rounds, but someone trained would have stopped him before so many were hit (I think anyway)

Police can't be everywhere all the time, we really do need to look after out own safety. I respect those that say they would never carry so do something else to protect yourself, take a marshal arts course something. Too many innocent victims anymore from crazies, people need to start thinking self defense and awareness. I am thinking of opening up my dojo again. Something I said I would never do.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:31 PM

This isn't the end but the beginning, apparently:

There was a Facebook page, now apparently removed, that said: Jared Lee Loughner American Hero, with a comment: Jared Lee Loughner: The man who fired the first shot in the 2011 US Civil War. Mark today in history and let the revolution begin!

Spin that, right-wing apologists.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

What have the crazies to do with right or left wing?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:00 PM

Everybody calls on statistics, but can't quote specifics.

Senator Mike Lee, Utah-
"I don't think we're going to legislate our way out of the risk. To the contrary, there is abundant research suggesting that in cities where more people own guns, the crime rate, espacially the murder rate, goes down."
Canadian Press, January 9, 2011; Lee-Ann Goodman.

I think Senator Lee is correct, at least for the West, but I can't produce reliable statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:04 PM

Q: What have the crazies to do with right or left wing?

Depends. Whose rhetoric are the crazies playing out? Do words have no effects, or at least on the crazies? Or is it possible that crazies see irresponsible words and somehow take them on board?

This is a wake-up call. Painting it like a one-off, having nothing to do with the poisoning, gun-threatening rhetoric in right-wing politics, we will have missed a valuable opportunity. Already it's going that way; look at this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

Kendall, I'm not calling for a ban on hand guns. It's more the semi-automatics (guns that let you get off dozens of shots without reloading) that I'm concerned about.

You're right that kendall armed robbery, murder, and assassination do occur in societies that ban guns, but you're overlooking an important point.   If guns (or certain types of guns) are prohibited or their ownership/carrying strictly regulated, a would-be assassin CAN BE arrested and disarmed BEFORE s/he shoots anyone.   Seems like in the US today, we pretty much allow nearly anyone to carry very deadly weapons (unless, of course, they've been convicted of possession of marijuana, of course) UNTIL they use such weapons in an act such as murder.    I think you'll find that gun-involved homicides are more frequent in the US than in most other democracies that have more restrictive gun-control laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM

"What have the crazies to do with right or left wing?"

Why then, pray tell, is the right scrambling to scrub their public faces of the rhetoric of the wild west?

Oh, look here's another one: GOP senator urges media not to talk about Palin's violent rhetoric


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:30 PM

bobad, I'd say to Palin and Mansour,
"If it looks like shooting-range target, talks like a shootin-range target, and quacks like a shooting-range target, chances are it's a shooting-range target."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM

Genie
it depends on the state, some states it is indeed easier to get a license but even in those states you better not have any convictions of any type. Likewise all require an FBI background check and mental health record it is unlikely but not impossible that a crazy can get a license. It has happened but more rare i think.

The class of weapon would not make a difference, a crazy would just bring multiple wheel guns with him or her instead. If all guns were banned he or she would just cook up a home made pipe bomb .. can't stop crazies no matter what you do, you just have to train yourself to spot them hopefully first. The Secret Service are masters and picking out those with an agenda , they are highly trained as i am also.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:48 PM

Being as how this happened in Arizona, I'd be surprised if there weren't more than a few people in the crowd carrying. I'm glad they demonstrated the good sense to not get into a major firefight in a congested area. I have no personal problem with people carrying for individual self defense, but the idea of one or two - or a dozen - untrained John Waynes all trying to get involved at the same time scares the crap out of me. Concealed carry classes do not teach anyone how to react in this kind of situation. The guys who manhandled the shooter to the ground and took his gun away did exactly the right thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:15 PM

artbrooks: The guys who manhandled the shooter to the ground and took his gun away did exactly the right thing.

At no slight risk to their own safety. They are the true heroes here.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:28 PM

point taken art, hence more training should be required beyond the safety training .. can't speak on it, I only know people who are very highly skilled ex special forces or police .


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM

to GUEST:

I'm sure they meant roadrunners.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:30 PM

However, shots were already taken in a congested area, but only by the killer


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

Sorry, that GUEST post at 7:27 was me - dang it I have a new add on that removes cookies when you leave a site and I'm trying to figure out how to put in exceptions - guess I don't have it figured yet. I apologize. Will repost under my login if you wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:37 PM

yes bobad, repost darn it for heaven sakes none of this guest stuff :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:38 PM

Bullet's path leaves uncertain future for trauma victims


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:06 PM

A brief anecdote from the last time I was in Arizona.

Camping in a remote campground in the Dragoon Mountains one day a car pulls in and an old couple (probably in their eighties) gets out of their car, opens their trunk and proceeds to strap on holsters and six guns.

I asked them what they were going to do with the guns. They replied that they were going up the mountain trail to target practice.

I asked them what they were practicing for, they replied "varmints".

I asked what kind of "varmints"?

They replied,"the two legged kind".

I gave them a wide berth.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:16 PM

to bobad:

I'm sure they meant roadrunners.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:50 PM

Mousy, seeing that we were very close to the Mexican border, I think I got the idea of what "varmints" they were referring to.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM

Like the Tucson sheriff said, "Arizona has become the mecca of bigotry"...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:24 PM

In UK we do have a diffferent set up - but I cant see how ANYBODY needs an Automatic Weapon unless they are Uniformed Military ot Police !!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:32 PM

Ditto, Terry...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Lead,
you are correct, no one needs an automatic weapon. I have a real beef with the semi-AK 47s as they can be altered too easily.   They are illegal here also. Well you can get a machine gun permit but it costs a ton of money with some very serious rules and very specific license restrictions and only a few of those licenses are ever given. I only knew one guy that ever had one. Also who the heck could afford the ammo.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:41 PM

"Apparently Fox News agrees with the senator from Tennessee [Lamar Alexander] because when Palin's name was mentioned at a vigil for Giffords, they cut the video feed.

Palin offered her 'sincere condolences' on her Facebook page Saturday.

'We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights,' Palin aide Rebecca Mansour told conservative talk show host Tammy Bruce.

Mansour agreed with Bruce's suggestion that the crosshairs were simply representing a 'surveyor's symbol.'
"

Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, gimme a break!!!

Don Firth

P. S. (Aren't you supposed to beep when you back up like that?)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:53 PM

And a big ditto to that, Don...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM

Gollee, I didn't know that gun ws loaded....


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:19 PM

a 'surveyor's symbol.'...right...what % of the public interprets crosshairs as 'surveyor's symbol.'?

"Well, no sane person would take literally the idea that WE were suggesting real violence toward our opponents!"
....no need...seems we have plenty of non-sane ones to do the deed...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:22 PM

"Well, no sane person would take literally the idea that WE were suggesting real violence toward our opponents!"

Actually there might be some truth in this -- what sane person would take ANYTHING they say at face value?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:31 PM

When I first read that they were surveyor's marks I looked up surveying symbols online and never saw anything like that. That doesn't mean there aren't such surveyor's marks but they weren't on the site I looked at so they wouldn't be widely used or known. Who in their right mind would use a symbol that looks too much like crosshairs? Just like the anti-abortion nuts: pull this shit and when violence erupts then deny deny deny. How much longer is the public going to put up with this?

The problem is, when did Palin ever try to clear up the misconception that these marks weren't rifle crosshairs? To my knowledge she never has to this day (that was her spokesperson who said they were surveyor's marks not Palin herself).

How many months was that map posted? She had plenty of time to clear it up but she, to my knowledge, was entirely silent on the matter. Now, it seems to me when you are engaging in something that others are misconstruing as dangerous behavior, you owe it to the public to set the record straight to put people's minds at ease. When you don't, people have every right to assume they were right to make the accusation. Ms. Giffords therefore was totally justified to call them rifle sight crosshairs--something which Palin did not bother to repudiate. I also regard them rifle sight crosshairs.

Palin knew what she was doing, did it deliberately, fanned the flames of lunacy with intent, and I hope she is disgraced and ruined forever because of it. Once again, I don't care if the shooting was connected to Palin's actions or not--doesn't matter. When you choose to go down that road, you own whatever violence erupts whether you like or not, whether you think it's fair or not. Ms. Giffords was right about that also--that kind of BS has consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:12 PM

We don't know everything about this.

However, at this point, perhaps we can ask Slag and any others-- who seem to be right of center. for some reason-- who feel it's unfair to link this to dear Sarah, who the Democrats and members of other parties are who have produced political ads with specific opponents in what seem to a rational person to be crosshairs.

Slag tells us others have done this before.   OK, let's have specifics--including source and date.

Particularly telling, it seems to me, is, as several posters have already noted, the fact that when Sarah came out with her "cross-hairs list", and Giffords was on it, that Giffords herself pointed out that there are consequences to something like the "cross-hairs list."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:25 AM

When Teddy Roosevelt was running for office as an independent, a man came up to him before his speech and shot him right in the chest. The bullet tore through his folded speech and his eyeglass case and lodged in the chest wall. Bleeding with the bullet embedded in his chest he refused to not give his speech. In the speech he said, "it takes more than a bullet to kill a bull moose" hence the name of his party. He carried that bullet the rest of his life. The man that shot him was angry .. there had been a lot of political bickering going on yada yada.   

indeed this is not a new event in history, it is a tragic repeat that again rests with the crazy. They will do this no matter what reason and if there is no reason they will find any reason. Blaming it on a party or politics is a mistake. That is the way Teddy looked at it and the way we all should.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:51 AM

Olddude, if "the class of weapons would not make a difference," why not allow everyone except the certifiably mentally ill & those convicted of violent crimes to walk the streets carrying machine guns?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 AM

Olddude, we - most of us - are not blaming this on politics, as such, or on party affiliation. We are saying that violent rhetoric that calls for "taking out" people via "second-Amendment remedies" to political differences or election outcomes, that demonizes others as the sort of vermin that deserve extermination, that employs graphics that seem to show certain people in the cross-hairs of a rifle, etc., actually can disinhibit or provoke the violent inclinations of the many unstable individuals among us, and often does.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:28 AM

Yes Genie it is terrorism. Even the threat alone is half as powerful as violence itself. The mind becomes less rational and loses focus when engulphed by fear.

Don't forget that we have had people fly SMALL planes into the IRS building and even the White house recently. Desperate people with little information or imagination will do stupid copy cat crimes or terrorism even if their lifewas never about terrorism. Their life only needed to be about repeated messages of hopelessness, fear and despair because of the Liberals, commies, Jews, Blacks, MExicans...fill in the usual suspects and scapegoats. Remember the Hutus and Tutsies? To watch this behavior repeated every year of your life for a lifetime and you may begin to believe it is in our DNA.



We still have to talk about the white hot rhetoric that steers people with fear who have no other attention to information or truth, and act soley upon what they hear.

The alternative is silence where evil implies silence as consent.



..........................

If you have have read this forum for over 10 years you might remember how I spent several years posting as a virtual prophet of doom. People hated and dismessed my remarks. I turned to illustrating them instead and they were more tolerated. Today there are people who have made a profession of doom in the coming water crises, climate crises, nuclear terror crises, cyber war crises, oil crises, bio warfare crises, extinction crises....and rightfully so.

Within 40 years it is concievable that 5 billion people will perish within a single decade.   As a species, we still need whacko survivalists. You can see it in TV programing and elsewhere throughout society. Even the money changers are spooked and feel justified hoarding all that there is to be owned in a greedy and senseless way. ( I assure you they won't digest gold well)
Cognitive dissonence will prevent normal sane people from even wanting to think about the coming global problems, let alone to change their life today to deal with life 30 years later.
The average person is capable of about 15% change to their behavior without an emotional overload diminishing their progress. More change than that, and a sort of grieving depression takes place.

I have said it is better to have an intense short depression than to settle for a 20 year medium depression...when it comes to the economic collapse/inflation/theft. Rebuilding will begin later in the slow scenario. This probably applies to the human psyche as well.

America has chosen the slow path to economic recovery the same way Japan did.
20 years will bring most of us all back to where we began but with very little to show for the changes and painful deprivations.
In such a climate civil wars can happen.

So this was the bad news that makes people nervous.
The truth will help us more than the dirty lies.
It is true some people can't handle the truth but heaven help me,
most of us cherish the truth and draw trust and nourishment from it.
So we all need to keep telling the truth even if yout butt does look big in that dress.

The alternative is silence where evil implies silence is consent.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM

FOX NEWS segments, Clear Channel Radio shock jocks, White Power Websites and similar patriotic bigoted sites, EVEN CANDIDATES...

SHOULD REQUIRE A LABEL just like cigarretes, prescriptions or movies.

Lets get a bi partisian multi faith panel to oversee the rating of the violence , financial harm and other factors that a viewing public may see right off the bat.

If they get the equivalent of an X rating let them squeal until they change their tone.

Hey if npr condones violence give them a red danger label as well, but at least it is some small thing that actually can be done in a 1st ammendment open society.

Get 'er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!













I remember watching Barney Franks (when he had no idea what Glen Beck was teaching people about Obama being a Nazi and having concertration camps etc) , when a women seriously said to him that he should not be supporting a nazi born in Africa etc.

Barney said in amazement, "Are these people from Mars or something?"


IF we can't return the fairness doctrine that Reagan abolished, at least we can get a label system by a federal broadcasting agency, outside group like the FED is not really part of the goverment.

You can't fix stupid or legislate hate away but you can have lables.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM

News alert, not that it make a whole lot of difference: The weapon was NOT an automatic, that is, it was not a machine gun. It was a semi-automatic. That makes a big difference legally. It makes no difference to those injured or to the loved ones of those who were killed. I have a friend whose daughter is in a vegatative state because the bf for whom a restraining order was handed down, knocked at her door and threw sulfuric acid in her face. A whack job. Ban sulfuric acid. I have heard of people having their thoats slit ear to ear with one swipe of a blade, certain and almost instantaneous death. Ban sharp things. etc. If that would only really work. Alas, for the world we live in.

How about identify the nut cases early and do something positive to help or re-direct them before thay go off the deep end. Don't just kick them out of school, refer to mental health and alert the proper authorities. Spot the loners with violent or anti-social tendencies. We could do much more than has been done to date.

The connection between what this guy called politics and what sane folks call politics is lightyears apart. One report is saying that two of his favorite books were The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. This guy was in a party of one. Look, if you insist on making this about politics, what exactly are you doing to the level of rhetoric? How does that help bring much needed unity to this nation? If we can't come together over this tragedy we will never come together at all and a house divided cannot stand. If division is all you know or embrace then war ultimately follows. Is that what you want? More bloodshed, on a massive scale? Just keep up the hard nosed rehtoric, both side and eventually, that's what you will have.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 03:12 AM

Early on- and I believe it was on Fox news, the host - a woman - said that it appears that the killer had obtaned his gun legally and made the remark that it seems odd because of his history of instability. This was on the first day.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 03:45 AM

Only a felony conviction can disqualify a person from a legal gun purchase.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:59 AM

'Look, if you insist on making this about politics, what exactly are you doing to the level of rhetoric?'

I can see that this is a new situation for you. But its old stuff for the UK. For about ten years we had a PM called Thatcher. She used to come on TV every night and say the IRA were nothing but criminals. She disallowed the voice of the people who disagreed with her on this point to be heard. Political debate was stifled. The BBC was constantly being called biassed against her

She was into confrontation and the language she used to was confrontational.

As she turned our streets into battlefields, she was getting all sorts of international plaudits for fighting wars hither and thus.

Try to understand this. You will not like it, if these people get in power. If you are frightened to frequent your city streets because people plant bombs. Because you and your children are drawn into riots and crime.

This is not party political - its about the way you conduct yourself in civilised debate. If someone is flirting with the language of violence - don't be seduced. Blow them a raspberry in the polling booth - its the only language they understand.

And organise yourselves to do it. Its the only effective way to honour your dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:36 AM

Sorry - that was me the last guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:31 AM

We did 10 years ago but their election software ws better than ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:46 AM

A sober comment from the UK Guardian's Michael Tomasky:

Where hate rules at the ballot box


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:01 AM

Laws vary from state to state regarding firearms purchase, but a felony conviction isn't the only common restriction. For example, most states ban firearms possession by the mentally ill (variously defined).

"Automatic" is the term generically used for handguns that cycle a cartridge into the chamber through the force of the previous round, as distinguished from a revolver. A separate pull of the trigger is required for each shot (unless the weapon has been illegally modified), as distinguished from an automatic weapon (usually a long arm), which continues to fire as long as the trigger is held back, until the ammunition supply has been exhausted.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:12 AM

This is what I expect from Glen Beck today.

"This delusional kid is a lefty pot smoking liberal who is a pawn of the progressive national socialists to create an atmosphere to take our guns away"


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:44 AM

Some folks say that the laws are fine... They say that we just need to enforce the laws... This is incorrect... The laws aren't just fine... Anyone can go to Richmond, Virginia for one of their many gun shows and buy whatever the heck they want to buy... No background checks... No nuthin'... You got the cash and the sky is the limit in terms of just how much fire power you wnat to take home... Or back to Mexico...

As for the 9mm Glock not being a machine gun??? Well, that is correct... It is a semi-automatic and can be fired as fast as one can pull the trigger... Look down at your own finger and go thru the motion of pullin' a trigger... How many seconds did it take you to empty a 20 round extended clip??? 6 seconds??? 8??? 10 seconds???

How many of you have fired a 9mm??? What happens to the accuracy when it is fired that quickly??? Well, unless you are highly skilled the accuracy goes to pot with each successive shot because of the recoil... That means that unless you are highly trained and skilled that after the 1st shot then it's Katie-bar-the-door for the rest of them...

Maybe Rap can better explain it but the bottom line is that these weapons in the hands of folks who are not highly trained and smkilled is like tossing the car keys to a drunk teenager...

That is the point here... The NRA quit being an organization that cared about gun safety into one that only care$ about $ales of gun$...

So I would hope over the coming months that we will also examine the general public's needs for guns that should only be in the hands of highly trained and skilled owners... I mean, isn't that reasonable???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

Everyone is correct that many people should not ever even spell the word firearm never the less own one. However, this scene plays out over and over again in the US. Some crazy walks into a College and starts killing teachers and college kids. Walks into McDonald's and starts shooting. The political comments, the we got to stop these people and other statements from people like Beck, I am sure that fuels the fire with the crazy. But I am also sure that those same people will find someone else or some other cause to do the exact same thing ... I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM

FWIW, an automatic weapon is one which keeps firing when you hold the trigger. A semiautomatic weapon resets itself so all the operator has to do is pull the trigger for each shot. Other types of weapon need to be reset in one or another way between shots. These definitions have been around for quite a while.

A semiautomatic with an extended clip in the hands of someone with deadly intent is a very deadly weapon, especially if they are trained in its use.

Just because the Fox propaganda machine, including Glen Beck, calls the shooter something does not make it so.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:46 AM

I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.

Kinda like not blaming Islam for the actions of a few nutters, you mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM

Slag: How about identify the nut cases early and do something positive to help or re-direct them before thay go off the deep end. Don't just kick them out of school, refer to mental health and alert the proper authorities. Spot the loners with violent or anti-social tendencies. We could do much more than has been done to date.

That would require money set aside for that. As in, national mental health medical coverage. Yeah, good luck, try getting that through the "all government spending is evil" House of Representatives. Hahahahahah! Mwahahahahaha!

Dreamer
You know you are a dreamer
Can you put your hands in your head?
Oh, no!

We're not making this about politics. It's about violent, over-the-top, shoot-em-up, death-to-our-enemies rhetoric. That Palin et al. use that kind of rhetoric for political purposes is their fault, not ours.

Donuel: This is what I expect from Glen Beck today.

"This delusional kid is a lefty pot smoking liberal who is a pawn of the progressive national socialists to create an atmosphere to take our guns away"


You got it from Jud Phillips yesterday.

Greg F: I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.

Kinda like not blaming Islam for the actions of a few nutters, you mean?


AWESOME COMMENT. You rock.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM

Greg I do not and never will blame Islam for people who commit terrible acts of terrorism. It is a mistake to do so I think and so do many others. No more that I can say the trouble in Ireland was religious, it was political as in the case of 911.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:09 AM

if you take the thinking on this thread and extend it, then was it the democrats rhetoric that cause Ronald Reagan to be shot. Was it the democrats rhetoric that cause Squeaky Fram to try and shoot Gerald Ford?

The logic doesn't make sense , or was it simply a disturbed person?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:14 AM

A reasonable person does not commit an act of violence because of a Glen Beck, nor a Bill Maher or any other talking head who has a show that does nothing more than promote insanity. A reasonable person doesn't watch Jerry Springer and think that is the way one should live their life either ... we are grasping at straws trying to find an answer to violence when the only real answer is: "as long as there are people , there will be people who commit senseless acts" So figure the odds of running into someone like that, probably small, but be prepared if you do. Not that you need to carry, but think about, what would you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM

Well said Olddude ... well said.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM

I think the Beatles are to blame for Charles Manson. If it were not for that "Helter Skelter" it would not have happened right?

see it is bad logic, I think anyway


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

old dude, I feel you are crossing one bridge too far to equate the rhetoric of the Reagan era to the white hot rhetoric today. I know your point has to do with a twisted mind is to blame rather than a political act of hate. However, the man who shot Reagan was trying to impress Jodi Foster in his delusional love affair.

I disagree with you in the same way that I disagree with Juan Willimas who said that liberals refused to jump to a hate motive for the Ft Hood shooter because he was Muslim, but liberals are hypocrits for immediately saying the Arizona shooter's motive was a political vendetta of hate.

I never felt that the Ft Hood shooter acted for any reason other than hate. If certain people were overly cautious in applying a motive for the Ft Hood killer, it was probably due to trying to avoid mass hysteria and stop a potential backlash directed at all Muslims in this country.

I stand by what Sheriff Dubnik said.

It might be good to hear from some public officials who have not been subject to violent threats recently...but it just may be that they're aren't any.

I monitor right wing radio and as a result I have no doubts the perpetual programing of hate, retribution and fear has brought a third of the people in this country to want to pull a hair trigger of vengence directed primarily at Obama, Democrats, women, gays, liberals, blacks, Jews, Mexicans, immigrants, Muslims and even you old dude.





After the Oklahoma bombing Rush LImbaugh wrote an Op Ed piece title "Why I am not to blame". There was no contrition.
Gretchen Carlson on morning FOX cable station said she understood why Gifford was shot because she voted for Obamacare. Again, no contrition.
These people (there I go again) see nothing fundamentally wrong for even thinking that a vote for National Health care should naturally cause some people to be shot.

The sickness is deeper than rhetoric.

Five years ago my fundamentalist right wing Christian neighbor saw my 4 year old climb into our family car on a hot August day a mere 10 seconds before I came out the front door. I did not see my son so I began searching all around the front and back yard and inside the house. My neighbor stood a mere 30 feet away and never said a word until I finally rechecked the backseat after about 15 minutes of my yelling my son's name. Later the neighbor walked part way across the street and said to me that he new my son was in the car all along.

I knew he hated liberals and atheists amd all the rest of the usual suspects but I had not imagined that his hate would be so great as to allow my son to die in a hot car.

That was an awakening for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM

for those who take "Ban sulfuric acid. ..ban sharp things" metaphor seriously...

It could be extended to "ban bricks and baseball bats" also, but banning many types of guns and SEVERELY restricting who is allowed to own them would not affect most people's lives like suggesting silly 'straw men' would.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

Donuel
there is a odorous element of hate rambling in the media today. I think myself it does much more harm then good. But no amount of hate peddling on the networks would make any reasonable man or woman I know do such acts. When I look at history and read my old magazines about Teddy Roosevelt or about Taft and all the hate messages back then, It doesn't look any worse at all to me. What has changed is TV brings it into our homes where before - one had to buy the paper. I never think that messages of hate are not harmful or dangerous and people should not think hard before they say such things on TV, However nothing will stop a defective human from doing such acts with or without the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM

The reason why Gabby has miraculously survived such a devestating wound is because most of the energy of the bullet traveled outside the exit wound and kept going.
If the bullet had stopped inside her brain the brain would have acted like jello absorbing all the remaining energy of the bullet and smash repeatedly against the inside of her skull in wave after wave until all the energy was dissapated.

She may have some sight remain for her right eye since the bullet that went in the left brain was above the optic nerves. The optic nerve cross to opposite sides just like the nerves for the arms and legs.
The LaBroca region on the left side however controls speech however since she is female this region exists somewhat on the right side as well. Men exclusively only have a speech region in their left brain.
It is funny but true that women talk twice as much as men in a day and speak of their feeling more easily because they do in fact have another speech region in their brain's right hemisphere.

This gives hope that she will recover her ability to speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:32 PM

The key word is "reasonable." If someone has cognitive issues, is more suggestible, is in some sort of psychiatric trouble, they are more likely to take an action which is drummed into their head as a means of solving their/the world's problems.

If the shooter had gotten help, there are at least 6 people who might be alive today. Arizona, of course, has made that more difficult with their budget cuts for mental health.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM

A reasonable person does not commit an act of violence because of a Glen Beck, nor a Bill Maher or any other talking head...

Depends on your definition of "reasonable", dunnit? And perhaps some of the victims of Kristallnacht & The Camps might disagree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

"So figure the odds of running into someone like that, probably small, but be prepared if you do. Not that you need to carry, but think about, what would you do."

Olddude's comment is an illustration of the difference between a gun-obsessed society like the US and places like Europe where although some criminals carry guns, most of the police don't and a miniscule proportion of the population does.

It's about seeing yourself as a victim. It might seem contradictory ("I ain't a victim because I've got a gun") but the truth is people see themselves as victims of crimes which haven't been committed, which may never be committed and that fear, which may or not be irrational (probably the latter though if considered in the cold hard light of day) is what drives gun cultures such as the US. There are other reasons of course, but it's fear and a sense of victimhood which drives intelligent people to arm themselves in this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

Reasonable people do crazy things too. With enough hate programming the behavior of a reasonable person will influence their response to a particular situation. Think of the neighbor who seems reasonable but given a situation where he need only do nothing to kill a child of an evil athiest, his behavior is twisted leaned hate.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM

I try to use the legal definition of reasonable. What a court would determine by way of action. Nothing more. Now of all the people you have ever met in your life, of all the people that watch TV and may even agree with Glen Beck. How many do you know that have done such an act? you see reasonable is a pretty clear cut standard (I think anyway)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:58 PM

This isn't about "reasonable" people, Ol'ster... It's a bout borderline people who also own handguns...

Reasonable people aren't going to do stupid stuff... Borderline people do... Unfortunately, as a former social worker working mostly with folks with mental illnesses, I understand that these folks don't process information like the rest of us... Herein lies the problem with terms like "Don't retreat, reload", or "2nd amendment remedies"... Reasonable people may hear these term and shrug them off as metaphors but borderline people may hear those terms and think of them as "permission" to act...

The other problem is that if we follow attacks on people going back to the 60's there is one thing that stands out... Seems that too many of them have been perpetrated by those on the right against those on the left or by people who have bought into Ronald Reagan's theory that the government is evil... I mean, going back to JFK some 45 years ago one would be hard pressed to find anyone on the right who has been targeted... I'm not talkin' about just politicians either... How about doctors working at women's clinics??? Lotta them been shot, too...

Bottom line, looks like the right kinda owns the violence side of the equation...

(But what about the Unibomber, Boberdz...)

Well, he certainly fell into the "conspiracy theorists"/anit-government category that seems to to be rampant on the right...

No, I don't buy this "both sides" PR stuff that the right is ratcheting up right now... There is a reason why Palin pulled the cross hairs down off her site... They know they are in the wrong but they are going to do everything in their power to try to shift yet another terrorist attack against the left on the left itself...

Normal...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:01 PM

Amen, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM

Bobster

   oh they are indeed wrong. Who the hell puts cross hairs on as a logo. There really is no reason for all of the hate peddling. I agree on that for sure and border line mental cases that get all fired up when listening to this crap. yup, like the guy in the bar with a couple of drinks and then bashes the guy next to him in the head because he said something about Harley motorcycles. A reasonable person would not do that. That is true also. There are border line head cases everywhere today and hate peddling does nothing to help. All the more reason for people to be more security conscience I think. Even the border line hot heads I think would not go this far. Takes a special type of defect that will always exist .. IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 PM

The legal def also applies to using only a minimum effective force for self defense. For example a reasonable man if attacked by a woman with a broom would not defend himself with a knife, but dust pan would be OK/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:31 PM

It depends on what falls to hand, Donuel. You used a bad analogy.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:43 PM

"I've got it in my sights" has been a common expression for a couple or more centuries. My dictionary says 1602.

Now you are asking that it be removed from speech?
I guess " zero in" has to go too.

A lot depends on viewpoint. ".....another attack on the left."
Some here make similar mindless attacks on the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

There are actually three maps that show Congress people as targets, starting with one by the Democratic Leadership Committee in 2004...


                                                                                                      all three are here


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

Interesting bit on the deletion policy of the moderators of the Palin facebook page.

Any negative comment towards SP was immediately deleted, yet a message which said:


"It's ok. Christina Taylor Green was probably going to end up a left wing bleeding heart liberal anyway. Hey, as 'they' say, what would you do if you had the chance to kill Hitler as a kid? Exactly."


Was left.

What to make of that?





Link here to the Obama London Blog that spotted the whole thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM

I looked at the maps. Yes, the targets are there. The difference is therhetoric which came after the map. Search to your heart's content--you will not find any discussion of second amendment solutions or reloading. There is a different between "a targeted approach" and "take them out." If a targeted approach were violent in most cases, business campaigns would be out and would have to learn a whole new language. 'taint what you say, sometimes, it's the way you insight it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM

Exactly Guest ... the slogan on Woody Guthries guitar (this machine kills fascists) comes somewhat to mind regarding this.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:09 PM

"Don't retreat, reload!"
- Sarah Palin, former Governor of Alaska

"If this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies."
- Sharron Angle, former member of the Nevada State Assembly

"If ballots don't work, bullets will."
- Joyce Kaufman, Radio host, Tea Party activist

"I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous . . . The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Currently serving United States Congresswoman from Minnesota Michele Bachmann, leader of the Tea Party Caucus, paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson

Strange too that the most violent rhetoric of the right comes from women who are supposed to be more peaceful than men. Shows you how seriously wrong something is on that side of the fence.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

I think what we will see next is a big schism in the tea party between the Sarah-lovers and the Sarah-haters. If that happens, it is essentially the death of the tea party. You just can't talk that talk for long before it catches up to you and it appears that it did. Palin seems to be in hiding now. Those who worked with her on McCain's campaign said that her bubbly public persona is offset by her private moroseness. When things don't go her way, she becomes very depressed and uncommunicative. I imagine she is a manic depressive right about now and her handlers will not allow her to be seen in public that way. If I'm wrong, where the hell is she?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:18 PM

American rhetoric ... it has been for years ... win at all cost, obliterate the opposition. .... ""Live Free or Die", new Hampshire's motto, hell it's even on their car licence plates ... whew, heavy stuff from a rather Democrat leaning state.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM

Its the testosterone in the water, josz... The liberals did that too, I'm sure...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

Cross posted, Josz...

The Tea Party folks that got elected are so far out of their element that it will be interesting to see what happens when they have to deal with reality... I mean, from what I read and heard from them, they are clueless about the constitution they say "must be followed" and now Weeper of the House, Johnny Bonehead says they are going to have to provide constitutional justifications for any bills they propose... This is going to put a monumental hurt on their heads as most of them really don't have much experience and probably would struggle with US Government 101...

Yeah, lotta of them are in way over their head...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:46 PM

Nevertheless, the Dems will have little chance of drawing a bead on Republican candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM

New Hampshire? A "Democrat leaning state"??? Bill Loeb, the Sununu's & etc???

Boy, are YOU confused................


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:51 PM

Bullshit, they'll blow 'em outta the water!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:08 PM

////American rhetoric ... it has been for years ... win at all cost, obliterate the opposition////

And that's fine. But if violence erupts in the wake of it, whoever spoke it last has to own it. That's how it works--talk the talk if you want to but you better pray no one acts on it or even appears to have acted on it and you're going to own it. You're an adult, aren't you? You know this.

. .... ""Live Free or Die", new Hampshire's motto, hell it's even on their car licence plates ... whew, heavy stuff from a rather Democrat leaning state.////

I don't interpret "Live Free or Die" to mean kill people who vote for bills you don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:14 PM

Anyway, that's "Live, Freeze and Die".


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:51 PM

"Boy, are YOU confused................ "

Not that confused .. N.H is not Colorado, and it's part of New England and resides right next door to Vermont.

josepp .. exactly.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM

No rhetoric or interpretation required for one person:

MSNBC Today:

"Meanwhile, the leader of Westboro Baptist Church, an anti-gay Kansas-based church best known for picketing the funerals of slain U.S. soldiers and gay-pride gatherings, said its members will picket the funerals of the 9-year-old girl and five others killed in Saturday's attack. In a video, Fred Phelps says God sent the shooter to avenge the nation's sins.

"Thank God for the violent shooter," Phelps proclaims.

[end quote]

John


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM

This didn't take long, did it?...

Fred Phelps


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:36 PM

Phelps is a monster, didn't someone do a lawsuit against him for his picketing of fallen soldiers. These people should do the same in this case ... only way to stop this guy is to make him bankrupt


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:38 PM

Back when I first became a social worker the most mentally ill were kept longer than 60 days in state mental hospitals and then came Ronnie Reagun ridin' in to change all that... Deregulate the corporations and let them police themselves and deinstitutionalize the mentally ill and let us social workers try to police our messed up clients out in the real world...

Well, both have been miserable failures...

When I left social worfk it took an act of Congress tyo get a "green warrant" on a mentally ill person... I mean, I had quite a few that were as messed up as this guy and I'd make the calls and the magistrate would ask me if he or she had a gun to anyone's head???

Things haven't changed unless it has become even harder for social workers to get folks off the street and into treatment... This is also a story about a failed idea about how to treat our mentally ill...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:45 PM

Phelps is a one-trick pony who only bores me these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:59 PM

The mental patients that were released while Reagan was presinet were the result of lawsuits by the ACLU, which claimed such people were being held against their will.

The court agreed hand they were released.

Why don't you ever have the facts right?

You don't give a shit about facts, that's why.


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Subject: BS: 20 shot at political gathering in AZ
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:11 PM

Slag, no, Loughner's weapon was not a semi-automatic. But it was a Glock with a 30-round chamber, and that allowed him to hit 20 people quickly without carefully taking aim. (I kind of doubt he deliberately shot the child.)   Had he not had to stop to reload, he probably would have shot twice as many. It was when he paused to reload that others in the crowd subdued him.

And, Olddude, if there were a lot of other gun-toters in that crowd, there's a good chance a lot more people might have been caught in the crossfire.   
I've known way too many otherwise "normal" people who behaved like maniacs (e.g., behind the wheel of a car or in violence towards family members) when they became angry, for me to want a lot of non-certifiably-insane non-felons to be "packing" when they're at political rallies, etc.

And, OldTimer, yes, McVeigh's weapon consisted of easily-obtained materials, but it was not at all quick or easy for him to set up the means of employing it and then to employ it. That was a helluva lot harder than carrying a handgun into a parking lot and opening fire on a crowd.


Slag, I don't like to see an event like this used for partisan advantage, but neither is it fair or responsible to assume that "both sides are equally culpable" in the use of "the language of annihilation" or to postulate that just for the sake of being non-biased.
I say we need to call out the individuals — political spokespeople, politicians, pundits, bloggers, talk show hosts, etc. — who are engaging in demonizing of those who disagree with them and whose language seems to call for violence. We need to hold them accountable for the aftermath.    It's not necessarily going to turn out that such people are evenly distributed across political parties or the political spectrum.

Q, it turns out Judge Rolls DID have extra security protection, ever since he'd received so many death threats following his decision to allow a lawsuit on behalf of some undocumented immigrants who claimed their rights were violated.   That didn't keep him from becoming a victim, even if he was not Loughner's intended target.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM

Loughner's weapon was not a semi-automatic

Ahem. The Glock is a semi-automatic handgun.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:21 PM

"It is not MY fault that I never learned to accept responsibility!"
Short Funny Quote by, Unknown.


"A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory."
Short Funny Quote by, Unknown.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."
— P.J. O'Rourke


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM

"...But it was a Glock with a 30-round chamber..." ~ Genie

Must get crowded in there.

Hint: Genie, don't ever discuss guns. You sound like a complete idiot doing so.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:44 PM

Where exactly do you come up with this, pdq??? That is mytholgy... I was there... The reason that Reagan pushed to deinstitutionalize was part of a larger plan to reduce spending... It was about $$$$$.... Not about ACLU... Man, you need to visit Earth now and then...

BTW, the push for deinstitutionalization was at a time when Federal Title XX funds were also being cut... Those federal moneies were for the backup services within the community such as transportation, out patient mental health services, adult day care services and all the things that if we were going to cut mental health spending that would be needed on the "outside " so this became to social workers everywhere the Reagan "double whammy"...

And my friends who are still in social work back in Richmond tell me that its gotten even worse... Les and less money spent on mental health and they are having to be both social workers and mental health workers... This is a recipe for disaster...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM

Here is a reasonable statement on the mental health subject...


"My wife worked for the chief of the psychiatric department at the Brentwood VA in California during the early 80s. From the mid-70s to mid-80s there was a strong 'patients rights' movement generated by the mental health advocate community. Although there were many facets to this movement, one of the primary elements was a re-examination of the criteria for institutionalizing patients.

The point of contention revolved around interpretations of what it meant for a patient to be able to 'take care of himself.' Prior to this the interpretation was rather strict; if a patient could not earn an income and provide shelter and food for himself (and if there were no family members able to care for him), then he would normally be institutionalized.

Begining in the late 70s, the advocacy groups began to demand a lower standard. As long as a patient could merely wash and dress himself, and could perform the mechanical tasks of shovelling food into his mouth, then every effort was made to force the institutions to release them. My wife's boss spent many months both in court and testifying before the state assembly trying to stop this lowering of standards. Unsuccessfully.

Predictably, most of the newly discharged patients were unable to take care of themselves in any meaningful sense of the word, and became the homeless people on the street. It's no coincidence that the decline in California's mental health insitution population closely matched the sharp increase of homeless (in California, at least) during the same period. In fact, for about two years, my wife literally was on a first name basis with every homeless person we ran across in the Westwood/Santa Monica area. They were all former patients who had been 'sprung' from the VA by well meaning advocate groups who then simply walked away and left these guys hanging.

Reagan was not involved in this movement, nor was he a symptom or symbolic of it. Quite the contrary. The people who 'liberated' the inmates tended to be on the opposite end of the political spectum. In fact, it was the ACLU who provided legal representation to force the VA to release these patients."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:10 PM

Exactly, Bobert...and I was working in a VA psychiatric hospital when we got the same directions - vets were "outplaced" into halfway houses or simply discharged who had been institutionalized for decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM

The first important decisions in the patients rights crusade were made in the mid 1960s while Reagan was governor of California. They were the result of lawsuits by the ACLU.

We keep hearing about mental patients being cleared out of institutions while he was president. That was 20 years after the fact. He said many times that he was not happy being forced to release these people but that was what the court said and he had no choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:30 PM

Please provide legal citations.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:37 PM

Laying blame on the outsourcing of the mentally ill to halfway houses can be blamed both on the ALCU and Reagan ... the ALCU has always advocated for the rights of the mentally ill insisting they should not be locked up ... Reagan took note of this and realized yes, this is a good way to save some $money$ signing the bill and opening the gates of the asylums letting the inmates free to roam the streets .... ....Reagan probably also saw the movie "One who Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest" which was a big hit at the box office at that time   which possibly could have reinforced his decision .... so kids, who is to blame?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Come on, pdq... This is absolute mythology... What??? The fuckin' ACLU, which had been buggin' lots of state courts over the issue for years, now makin' an elected president fall to his knees without one single federal judge ruling that a state hospital had to open up the doors???

I mean, no offense pdq, but I'd like some of whatever you been smokin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:48 PM

Ya got that one right, bILL..

I remember when the Title XX money was cut down to nuthin' by Reagan like it was yesterday!!! I still have a cartoon I did depicting the average social worker as a bus driver/maid/nurse/pharmacist/cop/secretary... I still have it... It's not so funny but it sho nuff set social work back 30 years...

BTW, I quit a year later and looked for something else to do with my life...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:49 PM

come on Bobert, put the bong down for a moment and think this out .... he took his clue from a leftist organization as a good excuse to sign the bill and save some $cash$ ... in doing so he feels he has done a lefty act of good deed at the same tiem. And everyone at the time has gone out and seen the flick "Cuckoo's Nest" and are (feel they are) fully aware of the condition of confinment of the mentally ill.

Geez man ... don't you see it .... everyone feeds off of each other ... the left and the right. It's all part of the big machine.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:51 PM

You are on the right track, biLL.

The ACLU wanted people who could dress and feed themselves to be freed from the mental institutions.

In the late 1960 the halfway house industry took over much of the responsibility from the mental institutions.

The ACLU had their victory but they did not really realize the total consequences of their actions.

Reagan never had a Republican majority in the state legislature while he was governor nor in the federal ligislature while he was president. He is hated by the Left because he is the only man who took the country right. The only one of 44 presidents.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:53 PM

Bobert ... "BTW, I quit a year later and looked for something else to do with my life" ... same thing happened with my cousin .... he did just as you did.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 10:10 PM

Hey, bILL... Ya' gotta remember that I was not only a social worker at the time working in "Adult Service" (meaning mental health clients) but also a "liberal"... So maybe my take is a little different from other folks, I donno??? But in spite of movies, I don't recall any "liberal"
push for deinstitutionlism... Might of fact, I don't think that any of my many, many "liberal" friends and band mates ever really brought the subject up until after it happened...

Once it happened it was pure Hell for us social workers... I mean, it killed off quite a few of us... Talk about burn out??? Sheet fire... Sadly, the social workers who I used to work with and are just lookin' to retirement pulled back shortly after I quit... Pulling back is the "operative" word here... People do what they can but when faced with an impossible task they pull back... Human nature...

BTW, I don't buy that everyone feeds off their counterpart... Yes, given the right circumstances, that is correct... They call that war... But war is obsolete... The only folks trying to keep them going are the folks on the right... The reactionaries... The Palins... The Becks... They want endless war because in times of war it is a lot easier to corral the peons... And, after all, corralin' the peons is what ****control**** is all about... See A. Huxley's "Brave New World" for details...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 10:15 PM

A point of interest regarding this subject of outsourcing of the mentally ill ... in the 1970s in Canada the movement towards deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill, that is moving them out of asylums and other facilities, and releasing them into the community was initiated by our federal government while the Liberals where in power under the leadership of Pierre Trudeau ... this left wing government would be considered communist by your U.S. standards. The reason's used where for humane treatment of the mentally ill, but regardless of politcal affiliation the real reason was to save $money$.

right vs left ... in many ways they are not that different.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 10:23 PM

Bobert ... burn out ... my cousin was a phsycologist at that time ... after all that crap he went into home renovations and stuck that out until he retired.

Brave New World ... familiar with that ... both left and right IMHO will use any any control possible to keep the populace under control ... I personally lean far left to the politcal spectrum due to the social well being of society ... but I also do not trust (and I keep my guard up) any government, regardless of their politcal affiliations.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 10:56 PM

I suspect that the ACLU would be very surprised to learn that they were being given credit for this.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:20 PM

According to that flaming leftist rag, the Wall St. Journal, today, the shooter raged against government, and believes that government controls people too much.

Now what group is currently stoking hate and fear of government in their followers, with extremely militant, sometimes military, rhetoric?

Clue:   not the Obama admininistration.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:39 AM

PDQ, that's the info I heard reported on the news -- the 30-round capacity being repeated more than once.   If I sound like an idiot to you, too bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:47 AM

ETA:
Whatever you call Loughner's weapon or how you phrase its capacity, Loughner's weapon allowed him to shoot off 30 - no, 31 - bullets without reloading, and when he paused to reload he was immediately taken down by unarmed people in the crowd.   The point is that had his weapon not had the capacity to shoot so many bullets without reloading, fewer people would have been shot.

Yes, the kind of weapon does make a difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:55 AM

There are a few things we all should be able to agree on.   One should be that no private citizen "needs" a semi-automatic pistol. Given that Arizona, as I understand, allows concealed weapons without a permit--and that won't change any time soon--, it sounds like we should be moving to national laws to restrict the type of weapon available to people outside the police.

If anybody thinks private citizens should in fact be able to buy semi-automatic pistols, let's have the exact reasons.



Also, believe it or not, things have changed in the US since the 2nd Amendment was passed. A "well-regulated militia" was needed in the 18th century since there was a deep fear of a standing army, and it was not clear that Britain would not try to take the colonies back.   We seem to have gotten over both those fears.

And even the Supreme Court makes mistakes--and can change.    How many Mudcatters think the Dred Scott decision was right?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:57 AM

Genie, what apparently got pdq's back up was the point that you said a "30-round chamber" when it should have been 30-round magazine. The chamber is the part of the weapon in which the cartridge actually ignites, propelling the bullet down the barrel, while the magazine (or clip) is the removable item that holds rounds ready to go into the chamber. Everyone know what you meant, and it is of no importance to anyone who wasn't looking for an issue on which to ridicule somebody.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM

"I suspect that the ACLU would be very surprised to learn that they were being given credit for this."

I'd be very surprised if they didn't. In some ways this is an example of democracy at work ... if you are a leftest (or whatever) organization with a mandate that you want signed into law and the current government hears your cause and does the deed (maybe not for the exact reason of your intent) that is democracy at work, regardless.

It was a win win democratic situation .... even if you strongly dislike and disagree the 'win' side of the right wing government. They heard your mandate and it was signed into law.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM

Ron
the reasons, well all guns kill, semi-auto or wheel gun a bullet is a bullet. A wheel gun is safer, you are less likely for an accidental discharge but having no semi-auto's would change nothing. Now before everyone goes off. Most duck hunters and bird hunters today use a seni auto shotgun for very good reasons. They are much faster and more accurate.   A semi auto handgun is more accurate. The wheel gun requires the round to spin and no matter how good the gun the cylinders all have some degree of misalignment and flash- as opposed to eject and load as in a semi. One can hold the target far better with a semi auto. Recoil as bob stated depends on the caliber with any gun but a semi auto is back on target far faster. Now should people be required more training on them ... YUP . In addition the trigger pull of a semi which determines accuracy is much lower, 2-3 lbs vs 10 again providing far more accuracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:03 AM

We circle back to the same point. Not everyone should be allowed to carry a handgun- absolutely agree. Those who can have to be highly trained and a full background check (including mental health) agree. Change the gun show law (agree)

And a person intent on killing will find a way (IE throw a homemade explosive) use whatever means they come up with. That I am sure we will agree. Banning anything won't stop this. Doesn't work with drugs at all. Politics although odorous won't cause this .. defective people who want to kill will continue to kill ... Now what would you do to protect yourself in the unlikely event you get into a situation like this, or you are on the street and attacked. That is my point, forget carry, that is the most personal of all decisions and I respect the people who don't. So think about how you would protect yourself and loved ones if you were confronted by such an act or a single robbery with knife .. etc..


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:17 AM

One other point people are missing. It all depends on caliber of the round. Had he used a .44 mag wheel gun (max load) only 6 shots could indeed hit 18 people. Why, that round goes through and hits the next and the next and the next. No restriction on the weapon could stop this guy intent on doing such a terrible thing


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:28 AM

Well, I certainly hope, but doubt very much, that this incident will lead to a rational discussion/debate on the 2nd amendment... The right skips over the first half of it like it was a radiation pit in order to justify their right to own whatever guns they want to own, regardless of their skills/training in using them safely...

There are plenty of personal protection guns that will do just fine for that home intruder that ain't 31 shot 9mm semi-automatics or AK-47s, which BTW yer gun dealer will be more than happy to sell you a $5 book on how to make fully automatic...

I mean, let's get real here... No one hunts with or sports shoots fully automatic AKs... This is a military weapon used in war... People don't need to be owning these to protect themselves...

But no.... We'll get the same NRA ***NOISE*** blasted at US just like every time these things happen... It will happen right here in the Mud Pit... It is already happening on blogs all over the internet...

Bottom line from the right: We're right, yer wrong so shut the heck up!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:33 AM

I'm talking about semi-automatic pistols. It's hard to believe hunters cannot get along without these.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:42 AM

But to get back on the basic topic, at least in some respects, it now appears that the Westboro "Baptist" Church intends on showing up at Christina Taylor Green's funeral. It is hard to get me angry, but those people (for lack of an uncensorable alternative) manage it every time. Their justification? She was Catholic.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:01 AM

Ron,
If you happen to have 30 hunting buddies who happen to all be feelin poorly in bed cuz of some tainted stew they had at the Rotary new years dinner, and you're out huntin and come across a group of 30 deer down by the crik bend, you're gonna want to have that Gock 9 with an extended 33 shot clip. Its down right neighborly to give a fresh venison to a friend, even if they are feelin really nauseous when they have to go dress the deer in their drive way.

It might take you three trips in yer Ford 350 to deliver all them deer but without that extended clip you would only have got one or two


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM

Completely agree with you Bobart, I hate the things and see no reason for them. I see no reason for a 30 round magazine in a glock either.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM

I find it significant that, although there were apparently many people in the crowd who were armed, not one of them fired at the assailant. He was taken down by "peaceful means."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:20 AM

And that was the very best approach. It all depends on the distance from the shooter.

By the way, had the guy came in with a shotgun instead, the carnage would have been 5 times that. Again, how is a ban going to do anything to stop the mind of a homicidal killer? The problem need to be addressed in some other way, somehow finding these folks and somehow getting them help before hand .. who knows, I sure don't. I hate the fact that his college teacher on TV said she told her office mate, "that guy scares me, he is the kind that walks in with a gun"

Now after hearing that, I cringed .. but then again what does one do.

only questions


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:22 AM

At our Safeway magazine section there are 4 different magazines that are devoted to the semi automatic handgun. Then there are the rifle and assault gun magazines.

I have been known over the years to take these gun magazines and distribute them all over the magazine shelves covering up all the other magazines to make a point of the number of garish gun magazines they carry. The last time I did this all the magazines visible were gun magazines with the exception of one pregnancy magazine. For me it was a carthartic example of conceptual art.
Crazy huh? Not as crazy as those who only feel secure carrying a gun everywhere they go.

There are 9 guns for every 10 Americans. There are 30,000 US citizens shot every year. 3,000 people are shot to death intentionally yearly. Of those, 1000 are suicides and the rest are "accidents". 80 US citizens are shot daily.

Yesterday Mexic only had 50 people shot todeath and of those 15 were beheaded in a macho narco display complete with a written poster.
The US beats them by a mile when it comes to gun deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM

No restriction on the weapon could stop this guy intent on doing such a terrible thing

The restriction that could have stopped him is if Arizona hasd reasonable firearms laws that would have prevented this mentak case from getting a firearm in the first place. A simple, reasonable background check - as done in NY & many other states, for example.

Ron Davies is absolutely correct on this one - (yeah, I know, shock, horror)- its long past time for a NATIONAL law, setting minimum standards & procedures, that State laws could exceed if they wished, that would keep basic controls uniform from state to state (God Forbid! Creeping Communism!!!) - this uniformity ALONE would eliminate many of the loopholes & absurdities of the current system (or non-system).

However..........................ain't gonna happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:35 AM

No restriction on the weapon could stop this guy intent on doing such a terrible thing
If you mean no restriction could make it impossible, then you are right. On the other hand, we might think making it much harder or less likely would be a good thing, even if we can't achieve perfection.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:47 AM

I agree, I have been pushing for a national carry law for years and that is something that makes sense. Maybe we are talking different things here. What I am saying is a total gun ban, like the total drug ban does nothing. Restricting certain types of weapons, sure we have done that for years. Passing more laws that no one enforces however changes nothing. A consistent handgun ownership law at the national level, you got my support for that. You and I both agree NY sets the bar pretty darn high (as it should be for conceal carry. I actually think NY has a pretty darn good system before allowing a private citizen that much responsibility.

Now as far as some of the characterization I read about gun owners on this thread. It is border line bigot. I can assure you gun owners range from every walk of life. We are not hot headed, simple "country folk" who shoot critters for our meals. We are from every walk of life and I will bet my bottom dollar in your family your dad or grand dad owned guns also. So you characterize yourself when you say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM

What I am saying is a total gun ban, like the total drug ban does nothing.

Agree, absolutely, Oldster. And would be impossible to enforce, as most any law enforcement personnell will admit. We lost the "War On Drugs" before it was declared.

Speaking of enforcement- seems to be an American delusion that all you need to do is pass a law to solve a problem. Eight times out of ten times the resources necessary for adequate enforcement are seldom if ever considered, and nine times out of ten the required personnel, equipment & budget are never allocated.

Then people complain the law isn't being enforced.

Go figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:08 AM

And I am no more safer when someone owns just a shotgun as I am if that same person owns a handgun. With the exception he is less likely to always have the weapon on him, However, A defective person will simply use his shotgun. Take away all the guns, wow, they go to Mexico and come back with an arsenal or they build their own. Yup I know a lot of people who have (very skilled craftsmen I may add). Get rid of all ammo, well I reload my own, most serious shooters do. Unless people change, nothing changes. Hence figure out how you will handle your personal security. Cops cannot be everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM

The Tucson shooter walked into a well-respected sporting goods store when he wanted to but the gun

He showed his ID and filled out the required forms for the FBI background check.

He was cleared and was allowed to purchase the gun and take it home.

About the aftermarket clips, they may be unnecessary but there is no place to draw the line. You may think 6-round clips are OK and 33-round clips are not, but what about the differece between 17-round and 19-round clips.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:12 AM

Interesting bit of history here. It brings to my mind a scene in which armed people in a crowd take care of a problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

For me a gun is a tool of last resort. Last resort means that a billion other choices should come first.

I think a gun is viewed as immediately accesible and neccesary to many people. IF a person ENJOYS their gun being seen, they are already what I call gun sick. IF they have multiple guns the odds of gun sickness grows. Like a drug if they plan ahead to be sure they have some on hand wherever they go, they are in stage five gun sickness.

Gun sickness knows no demographic or socio economic boundary.
IT is often something people catch after they have one.
I don't claim to know a percentage of people who are gun sick but it probably follows the same lines as other dependancy problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM

When you say "no line can be drawn, there is nothing you can do, thats the way it is", you are a failed human being, you are devoid of hope with no imagination or courage to change a single gun attitude. Your thinking is trapped in a box.

Today we can change the numbers of victims. Tommorow we could change a single mind. After that we could change attitudes.
While you can cage a devil for only a short time and evil will never go extinct, lines can be drawn, have been drawn and need to be made indelible.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM

That is the problem PDQ, When the 10 round law was in effect, nothing changed, in fact the violence only continued to climb. Would I get upset if they ban the 30 round clips and go back to the 10 round only. no ... but it won't make any difference in the violence.

When I taught marshal arts, I would tell the students, ya got three choices, you can run (the very best choice of all). You can stand there and be injured or killed, or you can stop them. I think two of the three are very good . The best thing, avoid being in a situation where the odds are trouble will find you. Who walks around a bad area of a city at night, most sane people don't. But in situations like this that should not have occurred, what do you do? that is what I want people to think about as this stuff keeps going on the rise lately


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM

"...Take away all the guns, wow, they go to Mexico and come back with an arsenal"

Are you sure? Ever been to Mexico with a gun?

A gringo can be sentenced to prison time in Mexico for having a few spent cartridges under the the seat of his pickup truck.

Private gun ownership in Mexico is completely banned as it is in Japan and many other countries. Only members of elite families, their security guards and the various police agencies have legal guns in Mexico.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

Don
it is illegal in my state to display a handgun, it MUST be concealed. Like I said in NY you don't get the license without a serious investigation into your background. In fact, you need three recommendations outside of the the FBI and approval of your local police. At least that is the way it is in my county. The permit is not issued by the local Sheriff alone, it is first approved by the county JUDGE and you need a reason that is legit .. not just, gee I am afraid. NY maybe overkill for many, makes sense to me however


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:39 AM

Lets agree to disagree, the sad fact is some defective person killed a lot of innocent people and sadly this seems to be more of the norm lately. We as a society are rolling down hill. WE are losing our sense of morals and decency and that of the value of life that our fathers and grandfathers cherished I think. It all starts in the home and how people raise their kids and what values they assign. Fix that and maybe less of this occurs


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:41 AM

btw

My prediction that this terrible and expected tragedy is creating a deeper divide in this small community and the nation at large is coming true.

All the FOX and shock radio people are doubling down and are yelling that liberals want conservatives dead. Media liberals are saying that conservatives are more strident than ever.

At least all the people at home who have a conscience, have reflected and can share a sense of grief and see the sign ahead is both a reminder and a warning of the future ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM

I sound terrible when I read my words but all I am trying to say is good people need to think about this stuff. At least get some exercise by taking a marshal arts course, what does that hurt. At least you have some sense that should trouble find you maybe you can do something about it. I know I am too close because of my background, but learning stuff doesn't make a bad person. Heck my family is a family of marksmen and blackbelts and have been for generations. No one cares for for others more than my family or does more of others. Learning to be cautious and spotting potential situations doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you a smart person. Learning to defend yourself should the unthinkable occur also doesn't hurt anything. Our society is losing its grip lately for many reasons. We need to change as a people ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM

All the FOX and shock radio people are doubling down and are yelling that liberals want conservatives dead.

HUH???

Can't really blame the shit-spouters, I suppose- that's how they make their money.

However, anyone that would BELIEVE that shit should be incarcerated.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:05 PM

Here's a novel thought: Human beings are strange. We very often do not do the *best* thing, we go with a reaction that, on hindsight, escalates rather than eliminates a problem.

I keep thinking of an incident a couple of months ago in this apartment house I manage. If the 'perpertrator' had done the best thing, the outcome would have been far different.

A tenant here wanted to eject a visitor of his and the visitor refused to leave. Rather than call on neighboring tenants to help or to call the police he elected to beat the visitor into a bloody mess that made the man literally unrecognizable.

End result: the visitor was taken to hospital by ambulance, the perp was taken to jail where he was charged with felony assault (later reduced to a misdemeanor). He now has a record, he lost his tenancy here even though he pleaded abjectly for another chance (As I told him on the telephone, no way would I want to live next to a man who 'loses it' that bad, and if he didn't lose it, he's even more dangerous).

Mind you, the visitor is a known bad ass, a guy with a long history of violence. As the police told me, This time he was a victim but he is often the perpertrator.

My (longwinded) point is that if a gun had been present, there is little doubt in my mind that it would have been used.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

That is a good argument Ebbie my friend for my reasonable comment. A reasonable man or woman would call the police, I would you would, who the heck wants to engage in such action. You can only use the amount of force needed to thwart off an attack. You cannot start the attack, provoke it or anything else. The guy deserved to be in jail. He is part of the problem. I had a guy come to my home ranting about why his daughter wasn't picked as a cheerleader (my wife is the coach) He was aggressive, violent and wanted a confrontation. I asked him to leave he wouldn't. I went in and called the police. Now could I have engaged him with all the years of training ... yea .. why would I want to do that ... a reasonable person does not go looking for such nor engages in stuff like that but walks away. All the time he was ranting at me, I was watching his hands. I didn't heated. My thought was, I really do not want to hurt this man. Talking was going to do no good. The police finally cooled him down. I did not press charges.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:36 PM

Ebbie's link raises a very important point.

Even with specific military training, friendly fire casualties have plagued every armed conflict.

War/Campaign: Percent Casualties (U.S. Military only)*
World War II: 21%
Korea: 18%
Vietnam: 39%
Persian Gulf: 52%
Panama: .08%
Haiti: 0%
Iraq: 41%
Afghanistan: 13%

(http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/ff/ff.htm)

I suspect that with lesser-trained civilians, in a non-war-zone setting, gun battles would involve much much higher rates of innocent casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

Sorry, Ol'ster but if the only guns out there were rifles and shotguns there would indeed be one heck of a lot less murders because they are conspicuously visible... Had this shooter taken a shotgun to that Safeway there wouldn't 6 people dead...

BTW, handguns were rare when the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution... They were used for dueling and not much else...

BTW, Part 2... The Founding Fathers also provided us with a Constitution that could be amended as our country grew and evolved...

BTW, Part 3... If the only way to bring sanity into the mix is to amend it again then so be it if it brings sane gun regulations...

Sane gun regulations:

1. Anyone wanting to own a gun should have to first go thru a certified gun safety course...

2. Anyone wanting to own a gun should have to also prove that they can handle it, aim it and hit a specfied target...

3. Semi-automatics should be for law enforcement only...

4. Automatics should be illegal with the exception of the military... Period...

5. A waiting period sufficient to allow the ATF to conduct a full background check should be in place before the purchaser can take delivery of a gun...

6. All guns should be registered and have ballistic fingerprints on file...

7. No one, other that law enforcement, should be allowed to carry a gun of any kind into any public areas, including resturants and bars, with the exception of shooting ranges...

And that's just for starters...

I mean, let's get real here... There is a reason that 30,000 people are killed every year with guns... 9 guns for every 10 people??? Do the math...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM

But Bobster we already have that in NY state. You can't own a handgun you have to register it and first have a permit from a judge. Most people cannot get one. Hence most people do not have one legally. It is so hard to get and expensive. But our rate of handgun violence keeps going up. I complete agree on the sensible laws .. I just don't think from living in this state it makes much difference is all


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:15 PM

and bobster, a sawed off shotgun, remove the plug, you now have 5 rounds .. each round has 9 .38 cal pellets .. that is 45 rounds into the crowd going straight through at close range .. it would have been far worse my friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM

for many year, no firearm of any type was allowed in Washington DC. I know it has recently been challenged in the court so I do not know the current law. However, the murder rate from gun violence in Washington DC is appalling. No ban of any type works


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:39 PM

Congresswoman Giffords owned a 9 mm Glock and said she was a pretty good shot.
New York Times, Nov. 11.

Doesn't help politicians who have to rub shoulders with the public, but useful to discourage home invaders, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM

I just don't think from living in this state [NY]it makes much difference is all

But it WOULD make a difference, Oldster, if guns weren't freely available in the Jackass States to be brought into NY.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM

6. All guns should be registered and have ballistic fingerprints on file...

Bobert, the NRA has long and hard regarding this.

They are against it.

They have not won entirely yet.

What they argued for and got was denying any national data base for gun ownership and registration.

Instead what we are left with are several warehouse locations in which all records are pieces of papers filed in boxes.


The NRA will settle for partial "victories" when they seek total privacty of ownership and total public opness whenit comes to guns sales, gun fairs and gun enhancements.

Fingerprints? having fingerprints is a dream.

This is all part of the no regulation, no goverment interference mantra in which the cry of liberty is still heard by more people than the cries of the victims and family survivors.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM

Old dude no need to apologize your suggestion is not far out or unreasonable. There is a trade off though.

Some say if you give attention to the evangelists like Glen Beck you are giving him power. Similarly if you carry guns you are giving attention to the power/problems of a gun society.

The trade off is an omniperesent sense of danger vs. peace of mind.
such as;
is the safety on? is it locked up? is it loaded, is it jamming? Where the F**k is it!, I don;t think a kid could find it here, Should I go for it?! Hmmm they look dangerous, WHAT WAS THAT!!!!?...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, Ol'ster... We have too many different laws because we leave it up to the states... If we had one set of laws that governed the entire country then we would see the changes...

Come to Richmond, Va. for one of the dozens of guns shows that are held every year in that city... All you have to do is watch what happens... It is the wild west... If I want an AK 47 and a book to tell me out to turn it into fully automatic all I need is the cash... Mayor Bloomberg has asked Virginia's governor to enact sane gun laws and Virginia's governor has said "Screw you", we like it this way down here... The guns being used to kill people in New York come from Virginia, Ol'ster... This ain't just my opinion... They keep stats on this and Virginia not only arms New York thugs but is also arming the gangs in Mexico...

That's the problem with no uniform laws...

Also, New York, if I understand it does not require gun safety certification, proof of proficiency, ballistic fingerprinting... It also permits semi automatics... And, if I am not mistaken it allows people to take their guns out into the general public...

Here in Virgina we have these cowboys who love to strap on their heat and then all march into a public restaurant in mass to show how fucking brave they are and scare the hell out everyone, including children... I've seen people actually ask for their checks before even finishing their meals when these boorish assholes show up... I haven't done that but I will tell ya' that it will ruin a meal...

No, we do need sane gun regs and just to say they won't work is not correct... How do we know what won't work until we try it... I mean, sanity is all we are looking for here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bettynh
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM

Jon Stewart's comments


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:39 PM

No bobster, absolutely the opposite in NY. You have to submit your hangun safety course certification with your application. You are fingerprinted, need three references, approval by the local police, the county sheriff and the Judge. You cannot carry the firearm in public unless you have a conceal carry permit like me. That is even harder to get then one for target and hunting ... They do a mental health check and FBI check. If that all comes back clean, then it is up to the judge to decide. Each handgun is registered and the legal weapon is placed on your permit. If you are stopped, the police take your weapon and match the weapon with what is on your permit. If you have one that is not on that permit you will be arrested for an illegal firearm. Very tough laws in NY .. yet our violence from these damn things keeps going up


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM

In NY you can only carry in public if you have the conceal version of the permit. Not easy to get (I have one) interesting enough NY does not recognize any other states permits because NY is so strict. I am licensed in 26 states but that is because I also have one from PA and Florida. So in those states you get a Florida permit (very easy to get by the way) and you carry all over many other states. That is why we need a federal permit law. But of course none of this applies to the criminal.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM

Just reading it. My county requires safety certification. I am unsure about a couple other counties. Good catch... God I hope they do, that is insane if they don't. I also see now NY does recognize a few other states ... that was never the case 10 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM

Greg in your county did you have to supply safety training?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:56 PM

Then I can assume, Ol'ster, that the reason there are so many unregistered guns in New York is because of states like Virginia which require only cash???

If so, then that's exactly what I am talkin' about here...

Sane laws that are uniform... Sounds like New York has sane laws... What good is it doin' ya' if yer ex-con-psycho-neihgbor can come down here with cash, and nothin' more, and bring home an AK47 and a book on how to make it fire automatically???

This is what people are talkin' about when they talk about sane gun control... Where's the control??? Well, there really isn't any, is there???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:04 PM

There isn't Bob, so correct ... You bet the bad guys go to your state, go to a gun show, come back with an arsenal .. we gotta get rid of that gun show crap .. it is indeed insanity ... that is exactly where the nut cases get them from. The gangs love the gun show AK-47's in your state. Come back here, make them fully auto .. along with the books on building suppressors to deaden the sound etc ... nuts it is all nuts we need a national law for sure. I am with you there


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:07 PM

another interesting thing Bob. I went into walmart and bought some .40 cal rounds for my glock. Didn't have time to reload. The first thing the clerk said was "show me your handgun permit" I actually thanked the guy .. But when they come back from your state with an arsenal and 10,000 rounds ... no one can police that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:10 PM

Regrettably, it is not only gun shows. I was at a yard sale in Maine not too long ago and there were a couple of rifles available, no questions asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM

local auctions also ebarn. It is a felony for a convicted criminal to own any firearm but there is no law anywhere that states the private sale of a shotgun or rifle requires background checks ... so if you are a criminal you sure can look at the swap sheet in the paper and buy a deer rifle or shotgun ... not handgun in this state, but in many states yes you can indeed do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Greg in your county did you have to supply safety training?

Didn't when I was licensed 30 years ago but you do now.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:32 PM

Bobert can you forward me a link to your music?

denise_whittle@yahoo.co.uk


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM

Wow NY is strict.

Between Virginia and SC, funs are as easy as fireworks, but you do need a bear license if you are going to shoot bear in Virginia.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM

Donuel "This is what I expect from Glen Beck today." Talk about setting up a Strawman! And I notice that others have already run with it as if he has already uttered what you have imagined. Could this be what is wrong with much of the discourse in this country?

Mousethief, Huh? Man, I agree with you! Fund it! Worthwhile programs are always worth the funding. It would be a true benefit to society.

AS for Palin's spin, I am disappointed that she and her company decided to try and spin it instead of owning it. They should bar her from the "No Spin Zone" for that one. Her original approach probably works fine in Alaska and as I said, it's a common figure of speech which could been seen as a sports allusion as in target shooting. For her to try and spin it at this late date smacks of guilt and cover-up and for what? She is light-weight and if she ever had any political asperations beyond Alaska, that's over. Good bye Sarah.

And as for digging up the Democrats' use of targeting symbols someone above has already demonstrated some above. Common knowledge and a big "So-what?" It is part of the language. Personally, I like "Ballots, not Bullets"!

I would not think of answering Sharon Angle's most unfortunate statement. She shot herself in the foot with that one, you might say. It demonstrates not even a basic understanding of what this great country is all about, supremacy of the law and democratic representation which supercedes any individual's viewpoint.

Genie, I hope your ignorance of guns is not indicative of your overall fund of information. Apparently you did not read some of the others' explanations of what constitutes a fully automatic weapon or a "macnine gun". I have a little expertise in the area and you do not. Hint, there is not such thing as a 30 round chamber. Glock 19s come in cal. .22, 9mm, cal. 40 S&W (of which I own one) and .45ACP. 30 round clips are made for these weapons but they are not legal in my state (10 round only, with certain exceptions) and many other states also. A 30 round clip would extend below the grip four or five inches and would all but deny any concealability. Were is truly a "machine pistol" it would be virtually uncontrollable after the first round or two. It is difficult to keep an automatic longarm on target as the recoil makes it want to climb. BTW, he fired 20 rounds according to the news report I heard which would jibe with the NATO version (Beretta) whic holds 19 rounds in the clip and one in the chamber. There are many other points wrong with your argument but as I said in the first place, it is only incidental to the event and dead is dead. If he had thrown a bomb it would have been just as tragic. THE GUY WAS A NUTCASE! He would have found the means to carry out his insane deed regardless of law or avilable means. We need to advance the discussion and move off this point.

Bobert, I'm a California native and lived through the Left's big push to free those being illegally held in mental facilities back in the day. They argued that it was just a means of extending a prison sentence indefinitely. And were they ever surprised when Gov. Reagan agreed with them. I guess they didn't realise that it was going to save the state a ton of money to free those poor unfortunate souls. You might find it odd but I too, was involved in social work or a sort in the 80's myself in SF and Sausalito and had much interaction with folks on the street who had been turned out of the mental institutions. Let's not rewrite history. I say shame on both side for making a political football of these impaired folks and their families and friends. I know personally of two family members in one community who died at the hands of a son who was released.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM

It was required Greg in my county 25 years ago to provide the gun safety certification. My PA and FL permit .. nope


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:56 PM

Yer right, Slag...

Until I found myself bombarded with new clients that were being released form Eastern State Hospital (Petersburg, Va.)I had really never given institutionalization any thought... It was off the radar screen for social workers everywhere and then we had this "staff meeting" where we were told about the changes and, unfortunately, not much more... None of us were prepared for it... Our entire agency was not prepared... It was an informational meeting but lacked a lot in specifics... Well, we did the best we could... I remember going to Petersburg in the "welfare car" and bringing 5 new clients back at a time... That was hard... I was having to find housing fir them and getting them into adult day care and hooked up with their out-patient mental health people and meds and food and, and, and...

I mean, 5 at a time!!! My case load grew from 40 clients to 80 in a matter of 2 months... All of us were running ragged... Plus, alot of rooming houses didn't want them... Or didn't want that many of them... One of my best rooming house providers called me about a month into this mess and told me to get all of them out...

Now to make things worse, which BTW any social worker who was there at the time will back up, the federal funds thru Title XX were being reduced?!?!?!?... I mean, those were the funds that we used to buy stuff like bus passes and adult day care and home health and, and, and...

Talk about a nightmare!!!

But what I saw were lots of social workers who just gave the heck up... Janie can tell you about this... She saw it... Yeah, they pushed the paper and quit doing "field work" where you go out and do stuff... They sat in their offices and pulled the blankets over their heads... That still exists today...

And then we wonder why stuff like this shooting happens???? Duhhhhhh...

And the TV says that it's easy to get messed up people evaluated by the mental health people... That is mythology... It is almost impossible... I, as a social worker working with messed up people, would have to lie to get a magistrate to issue a "green warrant" 'cause unless there was some nut holding a gun to his or someone elses head it was impossible to get green warrants...

Was deinstitutionalism good??? Probably in some cases... But, in hindsight, it reminded me of the the last day of the Vietnam War with folks tryin' to get on that last helicopter out... It was chaos!!! And it has left some very deep and serious scars on my soul for the things I, and my clients, went thru... It was a war that no one, other than folks in the field, knew about...

Maybe Janie will add her thoughts... For me??? I've said about all I want to say... It was a very hurtful experience and I ended up not only burned out but in a mental hospital myself... No, let me add that it was bad policy based on trying to cut government expenses while the DoD got everything they wanted...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM

C'mon. Bobert!

Government is the PROBLEM!! We gotta cut funding across the board. Nobody needs "nanny government" services, buncha wimps.

They're still singin' the same tune today- only louder.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:20 PM

Slag, in your focus on the details of gun mechanics, you miss the point. Whether a Glock has a "30-round chamber" or is simply capable of using "clips" that can hold 30 rounds (or more), the result is the same:
Loughner used a hand gun that was capable of his shooting 30 (actually 31) bullets before stopping to reload.

Had the limit of the weapon been, say, 10 rounds before having to reload, it's unlikely he would have hit more 6 to 7 people, instead of 20.

Let's not lose the forest in the trees.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM

NH's motto is "Live free or die," not "Live free or kill," much less "Live free or murder."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:28 PM

Live free or shoot

it has a talk radio feel to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM

A Glock 18 can have a 293 clip

Wanna see the you tube of it firing?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:48 PM

I'd say, "Glock this" but I think that would make it into to ***gun-cyber-world*** and some 90+IQr would find me and mess me up...

Meanwhile, good news on the medical front fir the Congresswoman, heh??? I mean, that is better than anything any of us have to say...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:50 PM

And for the congresswoman...

...300!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM

I like my glock thank you, but it is not something for reloads unless you know what you are doing. The make the bore just a tad bigger to feed hollow points freely, but that leads to kabooms. A kaboom is a term when the gun blows up. Factory loads are normally always safe but unless you have exact loading skills (I do cause I shoot a lot) not a good idea in that make of gun.

Likewise the trigger is the safety, there is no external safety. It leads to a faster target acquisition but in a hurry with sloppy technique you can put a new dimple in your own arse drawing it out of the holster. Not a good gun at all for a novice.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 11:28 PM

OK, while it's an extended clip he is reloading, he is not shooting clips of 300 bullets. He is reloading [often clumsily] to get off about 300 shots as quickly as he can.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:16 AM

Barnacle, you did not watch the entire video.

The last clip he uses actually has 293 bullets !

it is shaped like two cyliders instead of a long rectangle.

Frankly I think he was very lucky to not have a jam or worse*.


*a kaboom as old dude says.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:28 AM

So, trying to read between the lines, it seems we may possibly in fact all agree that no private citizen needs to own a semi-automatic pistol. If not, let's have the clear reasons why.


I'm trying to be realistic, if at all possible--therefore not even trying to ban normal citizens from owning handguns--just semi-automatic handguns.



We might even want to suggest that rifles not be restricted in public--if the people of Arizona, for instance, in their infinite wisdom, choose this approach-- but handguns cannot be brought to political events.   Since it doesn't appear that the shooter here actually had a death wish --"my assassination" did not seem to apply to himself--it seems reasonable that if he had seen rifles at this event, he would not have opened fire--since the end would be predictable.

As a deterrent, rifles would probably work. Another argument against concealed handguns--which would not work as a deterrent.

Of course political figures might well decide that rather than have the event look--and possibly act-- like an armed camp, the "town meetings" etc. would be cancelled.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:33 AM

More importantly, a poll claims 2/3s of Americans believe the killer was merely a deranged lone gunman without any political affiliation, intent or knowledge.

HE TARGETTED A CONGRESSWOMAN FOR 3 YEARS
HE WENT TO EVENTS SEVERAL TIMES.

How can anyone think that he lived in a vacuum and never heard the radio, never watched a FOX channel, never surfed the internet and encountered anti goverment sites, blogs, chat rooms or you tubes.

Was he really a bubble boy deaf dumb and blind.
Where do you think he got the idea for his "reading list?


It is highly important for FOX news and all right wing media to paint this man as a complete psychotic who is an extreme liberal yet has no political ties orinterests

do you not see the absurdity in that?
Please think again if you do

Many here have fallen for it. Just because he is deranged does not mean he has not been influenced by the world in which he lives.


IF Two thirds of us really believe that, the hateful race baiting name calling propogandists are actually loving angels from heaven and have proved themselves innocent of ever inciting anyone to say or do anything.

and in turn there is no need to even think about making new gun laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM

A concern to me is the 18 other names on the Palin map.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM

OK, OK..Calm down!!!...First of all, I wasn't going to post at all about this, being as we are all being inundated 'ad nauseum' with politicized accounts of this story....and at this point, who in the hell is going to take common sense into account??
First of all, that dumb-shit sheriff should shut his fat stupid mouth about his OPINION, when the suspect hasn't said shit! It is completely stupid, beyond belief, that this moron, the sheriff, is saying all the stuff he is, and possibly jeopardizing the case against the shooter!!!..he is just speculating, as to a motive, and tainting any jury pool!!!!! The defense will argue that this idiot won't be able to get a fair trial, if everybody forms an OPINION!..RIGHT??
For all we know, being as Giffords just asked for more federal aid for the border, that this guy could have connections for a drug cartel, on this side, of the border! For all we know, he might have had a 'jones' for her, and has been stalking her. YOU DON'T know, as any of us DON'T KNOW..and now the national discussion is only restricted to political blathering!!..and YES, he MIGHT just be a crazy lunatic, with a death wish..WHO KNOWS??? To say he is NOT 'just a loony' is just as stupid, too. Should he be a completely 'sane' mass murderer?????
In any event, the far left and far right are working overtime, to cast blame, or dodge it..and EVERYBODY, into that discussion is just furthering the problem!!
Case in point: Alleged Muslim terrorists fly planes into the twin towers..the left wants them tried as civilians, the right, military tribunals. The left doesn't even want them labeled as 'terrorists'...BUT, they are making political hay over this 'jerk-off' in Arizona! ..as if he is any more or less of a murderer than the 'misguided' religious zealots who crashed planes, into buildings in New York! This is DUMB, beyond rational thinking!!!
Sure, I think he did it, BUT NOBODY KNOWS for sure what twisted screw he has, or really WHY he did it!!..So stop acting like a bunch of vigilantes in a lynch mob, pointing fingers at EVERYONE who you politically disagree with!!!..on either side!!!..or you will ALL share in his lunacy!
The courts are the place for the story to come out. Who knows, we all might learn more, before this is over with..and I'm sure we will..IF he can get a fair trial!
He may have acted alone without help from 'talk radio' of he might have been influenced. Shit, the whole country is berserk over political wrangling..to the point, that you might just MISS the TRUTH!!
..and you can bet your bottom dollar, that the defense, is going to, first request to move the trial, and then argue for a dismissal, on the grounds that he can't get a fair trial!!...only the innocent victims who were killed, would then be the prosecution's strongest case...(which in my humble opinion, would be strong enough!)..in which case, he might just clam up, and we might never know the real reasons WHY!!
Personally, I think the case is air tight against him. That being said, let's not provoke each other to share his deranged frame of mind, out of finding reasons to hate one another over it!! Is this something we really want to partake of??? Let us NOT share in his, hate, political extremism (if that was all that was behind it)or lack of sanity!!!

Thank You,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:52 AM

Well, I was wondering where the heck you were GGfS.Thank goodness you have remained so calm.

Donuel, you saw the rig that guy had in order to keep the piece steady: Stock and he used the clip as a grip. Glocks just don't jam or apparently melt either. I had never seen a double drum set up like that. It was impressive. I really wanted to see whatever he was shooting at too. Obviously this had to take place on some other country's soil as the whole thing would be slightly felonious here in the states.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM

Whoa, I watched that again and it appears that it did jam. That slide did not lock back after the last round, hence his sheepish grin.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM

Well Ron if nothing else, serious training before one can own a semi auto. That I would agree to. And the gun did jam according to the news. The gun is not designed to hold a 30 round magazine. The spring inside the extended aftermarket clip malfunctioned (thank God). And yes the political rambling on the networks is odorous to say the least. A lot of good people died including a young girl for no reason at all. Now disturbed people do things for reasons the clear minds cannot comprehend. For their 15 minutes of fame, because of depression, because of deep routed hate. Who the heck knows. All I know is it keeps happening more and more lately, and sadly it will continue I think. Hate bantering between parties does not push a clear minded person into doing such things. However, it doesn't help the borderline wack job to think clear either as Bob said. I have no solutions, only questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM

Palin responds with accusations of 'Blood Libel'


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM

If you take nothing away from this thread other than, be aware. That would be a good thing. When you are at a shopping mall, the last thing on your mind is running into some maniac with a gun or a knife. However, in this day and age, in this society, you actually do have to think about it, look around and know that in that sea of people some percent of them are disturbed. Then what would you do if the unthinkable occurs. That is a smart thing. It changes behavior not in a bad way, but in a good way. Maybe I won't walk by that row of hedges where the street light is out ... those types of things, a change in normal thinking and behavior to avoid it the best you can. I use to tell people when you are approached by someone you don't know, if you don't feel comfortable then ignore and walk away. It is their feelings vs your safety ... this stuff will continue sadly


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM

It should be mentioned that this type of incident occurs every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:43 PM

Alberta has held the line on funding mental treatments and institutions; with increasing population, more disturbed people are on the street.
The same is true of many states.
Olddude's advice, be aware, should be heeded.


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Subject: Gabby opened her eyes
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM

If she can open her eyes, well then perhaps we all can.
At the end of these 5 sad days I believe I have opened my eyes. Certainly there was no one more partisan than I for saying within minutes of the shooting that the Repbulican shock and hate campaigns were the direct cause of this slaughter.

I was wrong. My cries came from having a 10 year old psychic wound ripped open. All the collected insults to sensibility of contentious words and even worse from a hateful silence, the kind of silence that came from Sarah Palin when people at her rallies said "Hang Obama" or "KILL'EM"...and she stood silent. The pain of having to to defend against a tide of people who wanted to elevate torture as a collective good. All of the real and imagined assaults on sense and sensibility all came flooding down and blamed BEck and talk radio for the rampage. It was not the reason. My partisanship and personal pain blinded me for a time.

Wile I can not go as far as Gov. Brewer and claim the reason why will be an eternal mystery, at least I can let go of a laser thin focus of blaming a roomgul of propoganda preachers.

Though my physical eyes are fading I need to see with better eyes and see through the walls, divisions, lies and partitions in my community, nation and the world to do what can be done for greater understanding and fellowship.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 11:11 PM

Stringsinger: "It should be mentioned that this type of incident occurs every day in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Mexico too!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:08 AM

Donuel, Even if Palin passively accepted her followers screaming hate, even if she had not encouraged them, her denial that she encouraged her followers to violent action is ingenuous. It is possible that, for the sake of popularity with her voters, she allowed the to scream and rage in murderous ways. If she were truly leading them away from violence, she would reasonably have said something simple, like "These threats of violence are not in the true spirit of American political discourse."

Of course, she or her followers may have had problems with the big words.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:35 AM

The more you feed it, the more it grows!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM

A glowing assessment of Obama's speech in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM

Freedland's article says what I have been thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:51 AM

I've also posted this in the gun laws thread too.

From MSN:


Glock Pistol Sales Surge in Aftermath of Arizona Shootings
January 12, 2011 12:01 AM ET
By Michael Riley

Greg Wolff, the owner of two Arizona gun shops, told his manager to get ready for a stampede of new customers after a Glock-wielding gunman killed six people at a Tucson shopping center on Jan. 8.

Wolff was right. Instead of hurting sales, the massacre had the $499 semi-automatic pistols -- popular with police, sport shooters and gangsters -- flying out the doors of his Glockmeister stores in Mesa and Phoenix.

"We're at double our volume over what we usually do," Wolff said two days after the shooting spree that also left 14 wounded, including Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who remains in critical condition.

A national debate over weaknesses in state and federal gun laws stirred by the shooting has stoked fears among gun buyers that stiffer restrictions may be coming from Congress, gun dealers say. The result is that a deadly demonstration of the weapon's effectiveness has also fired up sales of handguns in Arizona and other states, according to federal law enforcement data.

"When something like this happens people get worried that the government is going to ban stuff," Wolff said.

Arizona gun dealers say that among the biggest sellers in the past few days is the Glock 19 made by privately held Glock GmbH, based in Deutsch-Wagram, Austria, the model used in the shootings.

Sales Jump

One-day sales of handguns in Arizona jumped 60 percent to 263 on Jan. 10 compared with 164 the corresponding Monday a year ago, the second-biggest increase of any state in the country, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 02:40 PM

...and Guild no longer makes their phosphor bronze..
Drag!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,olddude who is out of town today
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM

I was watching a show on the history channel. If we think the political rambling and hate words is bad today. In Lincoln's time they would argue, roll up their sleeves and go outside and fist fight. One account a friend of Lincoln was getting clobbered so yup, he left the platform rolled up his sleeves and went at it .. Now I am not saying they should not tone it down. Heck yes they should, but it was even worse in the past history. Then again, Abe got shot also


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM

Yes, physical violence was once more common, including in the halls of government. Here's a NYT OpEd from this week, by a Yale historian, describing the shootings, canings, fisticuffs, etc.. More things than that that have changed since the Civil War, as they should. Idealizing the past is a mistake, especially in discussions of government. The challenge is to continue to move forward in a positive way.

I'm curious what you think of Nicholas Kristoff's suggestions today about gun regulation, olddude? --

>> • Limit gun purchases to one per month per person, to reduce gun trafficking. And just as the government has cracked down on retailers who sell cigarettes to minors, get tough on gun dealers who sell to traffickers.

• Push for more gun safes, and make serial numbers harder to erase.

• Improve background checks and follow Canada in requiring a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun. And ban oversize magazines, such as the 33-bullet magazine allegedly used in Tucson. If the shooter had had to reload after firing 10 bullets, he might have been tackled earlier. And invest in new technologies such as "smart guns," which can be fired only when near a separate wristband or after a fingerprint scan.

We can also learn from Australia, which in 1996 banned assault weapons and began buying back 650,000 of them. The impact is controversial and has sometimes been distorted. But the Journal of Public Health Policy notes that after the ban, the firearm suicide rate dropped by half in Australia over the next seven years, and the firearm homicide rate was almost halved. <<

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM

Desert
I have no problem at all with that proposal .. it is a sane one and anything that is sane gets my support


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,oldude
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:26 PM

by the way, like I said before the glock is NOT the gun for a novice. With the new "rush to buy" there were be more injuries just because of accidental discharge. Like I said, no external safety on that weapon, it take a lot of training to handle a glock


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 04:52 PM

by the way, I don't think the right to bear arms was designed for the unstable and for those unwilling to get training, or the criminal .. but that is just my 2 cents. It is why me and the NRA parted company. If a sane, non criminal who gets training, I have no issue with them owning a firearm


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

Now that the political discourse has run itself out of credible information (read: unreliable OPINIONS), let's all blame the guns!
As it turns out, the shooter in Tucson, as more background information is being released about him, he was NOT involved with the TEA Party, he wasn't into 'talk radio', he wasn't even very political, according to his interviewed friends. He WAS known for being 'scary', even other students in his school felt uncomfortable with him in the classroom, among other things being revealed about him by people who knew him!

What is really..I mean, REALLY screwed up, is how fast the finger pointing began, followed by 'tit for tat' instances, cited by those on BOTH sides! I guess it all depended on who, or what your favorite 'news' source was.

Those who wrongly jumped on the 'Conservatives' are being thoroughly embarrassed, with every release of new information! Those on the right, are doing the 'tit for tat' rap, and showing how nasty they can be, as well!

My post:GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM....
...was pretty accurate. Starting, as soon as to 'NOW', as you can, after the 'light goes on', isn't it time to begin healing, our fellow brothers and sisters, who are all wound up, with 'fear and loathing'??

I know things are strained, in our country. I know things are being fanned, to play on people emotions, on both sides. I know there are fissures in our society, over things that in everyday life, people don't normally give a rat's ass about!..but I also know that many of us are musicians..some even venture into being perfectionists....why allow 'bullshit' into your filters, to work through???

I'm on YOUR side!!!..but as a musician/composer, lyricist and artist. You just can't let emotions, which are genuine, but fanned by false partisan propaganda, be an anchor to your mediocrity. You might just play a phrase, that would catch someone's heart, and open up a world of common sense, and compassion in them,.......but not if you're all torn up, worried and resentful, about stuff that wasn't even true, about this rather sad enough affair!

On some level, and sooner or later(better sooner than later), those who have the gift, to reach into where great music comes from, and touch other people, with it...soon as they can rise above the fray, and get clean, and free of it...THE BETTER YOU are playing, and focusing!!!...and of course, the more you will have to say!!!(Whether lyrically, or instrumentally,or both!).

Time is getting shorter. Snap now, and avoid the 'rush'!

Regards,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:22 PM

No, olddude, fistfights are NOT worse than shootings. Sorry to have to say this.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:29 PM

/////HE TARGETTED A CONGRESSWOMAN FOR 3 YEARS
HE WENT TO EVENTS SEVERAL TIMES.////

But he didn't shoot her until AFTER she was targeted by Palin so your point is, not surprisingly, pointless. There is no way you can prove Palin's words and others did not push him over the edge.

I am not arguing politics here. The politics have nothing to do with anything. I am arguing actions and intent.

////a poll claims 2/3s of Americans believe the killer was merely a deranged lone gunman without any political affiliation, intent or knowledge.////

Obviously this is true but it has nothing to do with anything. He was strongly anti-govt and there is every reason to believe he would have given ear to the anti-govt rhetoric of extremists as Palin, Bachman and Angle. If he already disliked Giffords and then sees that these people seem think the same way and seem to be urging someone to do her in, then he might have decided to do it himself--not because he knew or cared what these people stand for but because there seemed to him to be a message to do it. Nothing more.

I strongly believe these people played a part in this incident. It is entirely reasonable for me to assume so. It is entirely unreasonable for people like you to disagree. None of our arguments against hold water.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:36 PM

That is IF he even listened to those people, and his close friends who knew him, said he didn't get into politics...and didn't care about that shit! So if he wasn't listening to it, your argument falls down..fair enough???

Play music. Heal!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 05:44 PM

The rhetoric on both sides apparently had little to do with the Tucson shooting.

The media and agitators love to ride such speculations to death.

In the mid-19th C. Congressmen carried handguns into their chambers.
One incident frequently mentioned in histories of the time, in 1850, Sen. Foote of Miss. pulled a pistol on Sen. Benton of Missouri during a debate.
Fights with canes could be deadly, one congressman was caned so badly that he couldn't participtate again for three years.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 06:06 PM

According to a couple of things I've read about the shooter, his two favorite books were Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler and Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

Not politically motivated? I wouldn't say that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM

First, it's encouraging that Congresswoman Giffords is still hanging in there and conscious and has a chance at recovering perhaps a good deal of her previous functioning, and that most of the other wounded seem to be making progress too.

Second, our hearts go out to the families and friends of all those who were so senselessly killed.

Beyond that, I hope this horrible incident will help bring most of us closer to consensus on a few things or at least engage in serious, responsible dialogue about them:

~ While no one can draw a direct causal relationship between the virulent rhetoric of some politicians and media darlings and the mindset of young Mr. Loughner, when extremely divisive & vitriolic rhetoric dominates our politics & our media, portraying those who differ from us in ethnicity, religion, etc., or in political orientation as inhuman scum or impending dangers to our well-being, it's hard for anyone to escape the impact of such, whether they regularly watch TV or listen to radio or not. The ripples carry far.

~ Weapons that are capable of inuring or killing dozens or people in a matter of seconds probably do need to be less readily available not only to "convicted felons" but to others who have a history of violent outbursts and/or who have not demonstrated the know-how to curb the excesses of their use.

~ No party or political perspective or philosophy has a monopoly on hate speech or on the sensationalist abuses of our political parlance. Still, to assume from the start that "both" or "all" parties are equally in need of reining in their rhetoric" does a disservice to meaningful dialogue. We need to call out the excessive rhetoric itself when it occurs, without a preconceived notion that the 'scorecard" must "turn out' basically even.
It may not.
But no one should be deterred from using rhetoric such as "this bill is an outrage to American justice" or such and such legislation "could have disastrous consequences" or even that such and such actions would be "treasonous" or that someone "is guily of war crimes" if there's some reasonable basis for such judgments and there's no suggestion of dealing with those people or issues by other than lawful means.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 07:14 PM

///That is IF he even listened to those people, and his close friends who knew him, said he didn't get into politics...and didn't care about that shit!////

Didn't get into politics???? Did you read what he wrote? I think you're the one whose shielded from reality. This guy wrote diatribes and posted them all over the internet about how much he distrusted the govt and then he targets a congresswoman BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION FOR 3 YEARS!!! Stop trying to have it both ways. Yes, he was a VERY political person. Obviously. That he was stuck in his own weird little world is completely beside the point. He encountered the rhetoric and it got into his head and became a mission which he carried out. You'll never be able to disprove that. Whether it's true of not, it will always remain a strong possibility and it is a stain Palin and her ilk can never wash off. And they deserve that fate for resorting to that shit.

////So if he wasn't listening to it, your argument falls down..fair enough???////

Well, of course, if he never heard it then my argument fails. Boy, you must have graduated from Harvard! That's the very thing you will never be able to rule out no matter how much you want to believe it. He COULD have encountered this rhetoric--it was all over the internet, TV, newspapers and magazines. You have to wonder how he could possibly have avoided it considering how anti-govt he is. It's frankly highly improbable that he didn't encounter any of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:12 PM

Our current gun laws are insane... No, beyond insane... The would be insane if Congresswoman Giffords was not shot, if Robert Kennedy were no assasinated, if Dwayne Dettman was not shot down by a friend of mine... They are insane all by themselves....

The 2nd amendment in no way gives carte blank permission for anyone to own whatever gun he or she wants... For anyone willing to actually read it as the ****one**** sentence that it is gun ownership is clearly tied to the maintaining of a militia... One person does not make up a militia... Had the amendment been 2 sentences rather than one than the NRA and the gun0nuts would be able to argue their opinions based on the Constitution... Unfortunately for them it is one sentence which, BTW, they never quote in total but quote only part of...

But even if the Founding Fathers had made it two sentences then our gun laws would still be insane...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:14 PM

Sigh, I just wish everyone was the same as I, then it wouldn't matter who owned guns, we'd all be safe. I wish everyone was as intelligent as I, then EBarnacle wouldn't have to worry tendentiously about his sesquipedalian vocabulary being lost on the heathen right. I wish we all had love in our hearts for all God's creatures, not to mention love for God Himself. I wish everyone thought as I did, did as I did and lived as I did, ad nauseum.

On the other side of the planet, I finally heard an Obama speech I could relate to. Masterful, brilliant and caring.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:37 PM

I like the news that Congresswoman Giffords is able to open her eyes, move her hands and is now demonstrating that she can lift both of her legs. That is a major miracle considering what was done to her.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 08:42 PM

I agree Charley ... it is wonderful news.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:59 PM

Donny First: "According to a couple of things I've read about the shooter, his two favorite books were Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler and Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.
Not politically motivated? I wouldn't say that."

Well, Didn't you post in another thread that you were very 'Bible literate, but weren't really a Christian??

Shit happens, eh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 12:31 AM

Josepp: and you have evidence that remarks by Sarah Palin or anyone else caused that nut to go on his rampage? If so, produce it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 08:41 AM

Way to miss the point, DougR.

Here's a tasty little number:

Tucson tea party founder says Giffords to blame for getting shot


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 09:26 AM

Doublethink at its finest.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM

Shine on. Having read mousethief's link, having seen some of the stuff on Fox over here in the UK and in the papers I've come to the conclusion that conservatives (here and in the US) really are a mean, and sometimes downright nasty bunch of people - especially in a group. I mean, compassion and caring for other people that you might not be related to is NOT some left-wing failing, but a basic human necessity. I'm befuddled some people don't have it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM

Doesn't prove a thing. The co-founder of the Tucson chapter of the Tea Party merely reported what he had said to Rep. Gifford. There is nothing in the article proving that conservative talk caused the killer to take his gun to the politial rally and shoot up the place.

Truth is, there is ample biased political talk from both conservatives and liberals to go around. The Democrats have used the same termonology (tarketing political districts) in previous political campaigns and there have been no loud calls of foul from liberals when they used it.

Sugar Foot: Conservatives in the U.S. do not constitute a danger to folks living here. We are civilized folks who obey our laws.

If you want to get a real clear picture of what vitrolic political talk is like in the U.S., tune in to MSNBC sometime.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM

Armed bystander almost shot hero that disarmed AZ shooter

By David Edwards
Friday, January 14th, 2011 -- 1:12 pm

Maddow destroys GOP fantasy that more guns equals less violence

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/armed-bystander-shot-hero-disarmed-az-shooter/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 05:33 PM

"There is nothing in the article proving that conservative talk caused the killer to take his gun to the politial rally and shoot up the place."

And I would agree. But now that the subject has come up isn't a good idea for BOTH sides to tone it down? It's still a good thing to promote even if it didn't cause this whacko to pull the trigger.

Or we could just wait for "them" to stop first. In which case nothing will happen.

After all - "they" started it.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 06:46 PM

Way to miss the point, DougR.

And way to deny reality. But what else did you expect? Ain't the first time and sure as hell won't be the last.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 06:54 PM

Wesley and DougR, ANYONE who uses really vitriolic "annihilate-them" rhetoric needs to turn it down. And, no, it's not always those on "the right" that use it. Back in 1968, a speech was given at the American Psychological Convention in San Francisco by (IIRC) Kathleen Cleaver, wife of Eldridge Cleaver, in which she repeatedly proclaimed "The gun is the answer!"   I found that sort of perspective and rhetoric disturbing even back then, and she was definitely "leftist" in her political leanings.   

But there is an important difference between simply using strong rhetoric to highlight one's opposition to a candidate or policy or law (e.g., calling a policy "atrocious" or even "criminal") and saying things like "I'd like to blow his brains out" or that citizens should "be armed and dangerous" because it's time for a "revolution." There's also a big difference between calling out someone because of something they've actually proposed or done (e.g., initiated the occupation of another country or suspended habeas corpus or authorized unwarranted wiretaps or voted to raise/lower taxes) and spewing hatred towards someone because of false or unfounded allegations (e.g., saying that "Obamacare" involves "death panels" or that Obama "wants to take your guns away" or that today's Democrats are "communists." There's a huge difference between saying that you think so-and-so should be investigated or indicted and tried in legitimate courts and calling for so-and-so's murder or assassination.

Some well-known talk show hosts, bloggers, columnists, and political "strategists" HAVE talked/written of wishing they could kill people they disagree with (e.g., Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, etc.)   I have heard one or two liberal talk show hosts say they "hate" the far right wing or label people like Mitch McConnell or Dick Cheney or Bill O'Reilly "Today's Worst Person In The World" but never heard any of them say they would like to kill them or see them assassinated or. I've never heard any of them suggest that guns or bombs or any sort of violence should be used against people just because their policies and politics differ.   

Let us not make the mistake of lumping all hyperbole & sarcasm & strongly worded allegations or objections together. And, please, let's not propose that everyone refrain from using emotionally charged or blunt, confrontive language when it fits.   We don't need to revert to saying things like "Holding people indefinitely in GITMO without affording them legal counsel or even charging them with any crime isn't a very nice thing to do."

But it's not valid to say that really vitriolic rhetoric, especially when it evokes images of dealing with opponents by bloodshed, does not contribute to things like shooting rampages, just because we can't draw a direct single-causal line between the rhetoric and such a violent attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 07:32 PM

Mark Hemingway 01/11/11 1:15 PM

Ex-Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., pens an op-ed in the New York Times today about the proper political response to this weekend's tragedy. I wholeheartedly support the former Congressman (Kanjorski lost his seat in November) when he argues that, following this weekend's shooting, Congressman need to remain open and accessible to the public. However, Kanjorski is rather hypocritical when he climbs up on his soapbox:

"We all lose an element of freedom when security considerations distance public officials from the people. Therefore, it is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation."

Incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect? Congressman heal thyself! Yesterday, I noted that, according to the Scranton Times, Kanjorski said this about Florida's new Republican Governor Rick Scott on October 23:

"That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a damn crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."

I'll give Kanjorski the benefit of the doubt that he did not literally mean Scott schould be killed. Regardless, Kanjorski's way over the rhetorical line compared to the kinds of statements liberals are pointing to as evidence that Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh are creating a "climate of hate," to borrow Paul Krugman's phrase. And somehow I doubt that there would have been crickets from the national media if a Republican politician called for a Democratic candidate to be shot barely a week before the election.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 07:52 PM

January 8, 2011, 3:22 pm

          Paul Krugman

Assassination Attempt In Arizona

A Democratic Congresswoman has been shot in the head; another dozen were also shot.

We don't have proof yet that this was political, but the odds are that it was. She's been the target of violence before. And for those wondering why a Blue Dog Democrat, the kind Republicans might be able to work with, might be a target, the answer is that she's a Democrat who survived what was otherwise a GOP sweep in Arizona, precisely because the Republicans nominated a Tea Party activist. (Her father says that "the whole Tea Party" was her enemy.) And yes, she was on Sarah Palin's infamous "crosshairs" list.

Just yesterday, Ezra Klein remarked that opposition to health reform was getting scary. Actually, it's been scary for quite a while, in a way that already reminded many of us of the climate that preceded the Oklahoma City bombing.

You know that Republicans will yell about the evils of partisanship whenever anyone tries to make a connection between the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc. and the violence I fear we're going to see in the months and years ahead. But violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it's long past time for the GOP's leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers.


{note: Krugman said (she, Giffords) "...might be a target...precisely because the Republicans nominated a Tea Party activist...}

{note: Krugman is saying this c**p just hours after the shooting. He is taking the opertunity to bloody his usual enemies at the expense of six dead people. BTW, the judge who died was a Republican.}


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 09:58 PM

The only thing that is politically motivated, is group stupidity!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 12:55 AM

DougR, don't you know by now that if a Democrat does it, it's smart chic, happening and creative. If a Conservative does it it's stupid, inane, mean-spirited and vitriolic. Come on, get with the program.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:41 AM

Moving right along, ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:43 AM

"DougR, don't you know by now that if a Democrat does it, it's smart chic, happening and creative. If a Conservative does it it's stupid, inane, mean-spirited and vitriolic. Come on, get with the program."

Slag, I am almost you are not referring to murder. Are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 04:05 AM

Ebbs: "Slag, I am almost you are not referring to murder. Are you?"

Huh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Bobert in Greensboro, NC
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 07:38 AM

Paul Krugman outta stick with economics...

But sadly, intentional or not, I find it very curious that the folks who have actually been *killed* since 1963, of which there are many for their beliefs, seem to all be on the left side of the political divide..,

Yes, the "Big Three" (JFK, RFK & MLK) are well known... But when one starts Googling up other folks the list gets purdy astounding...

I mean, there members of county and city governments, doctors, security folks and nurses working at womens clinics...

So it's easy for those on the left, when yet another of their political allies is gunned down to think, "Oh, here we go again"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

In my latest post, insert 'sure' into a coherent space.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 10:16 AM

Coherent space, perhaps; coherent correspondents are another story....


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 11:13 AM

Well, since it is that we are discussing I thought that Slag's comment: "...if a Democrat does it, it's smart chic, happening and creative. If a Conservative does it it's stupid, inane, mean-spirited and vitriolic." he might have been referring to it.

(Not really)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 02:22 PM

Slag.....Can a man who sanctions and supplies the funds to increase the use of "killer drones",actually be described as caring?

Dont you mean that he employs rather professional scriptwriters?

The use of drones in Afghanistan has caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people, women,children, old people, blown to pieces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Not much hope for the mutilated either, no teams of doctors, no intensive care facility....just a stinking shitty dirt floor as an operating table.

But who cares? no memorial service for dead Iraqis or Afghanis, there may be a couple of terrorists among them, so that cancels out all the innocents.

In the great scheme of things, life means nothing to us. In our search for "Victory with Honour" the deaths of a few hundred kids are worth it.......so we can drag our sorry arses out of there with "honour"..


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM

Thanks to left-foot-in-mouths, sympathy for Republicans is growing. A couple of the worst examples of vitriolic nonsense can be found posted here.
(Remember 40 percent voted Republican in the last election)

Surveys show that most Americans don't think the political rhetoric was a factor in the shooting, and many said the poisonous comments were an attempt to make Conservatives look bad.
They do agree that the rhetoric on both sides has gone too far.

"Concocting connections to advance an argument actually weakens it. The argument for tonal moderation has been done a tremendous disservice by those who sought to score political points in the absence of proof."

New York Times. The Tucson Witch Hunt, Charles M. Blow, Op-Ed, January 14, 2011.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM

How quickly they forget http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/lashingout.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 03:26 PM

Good point, Q.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM

I am incredulous.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 08:10 PM

Ya' know... Doesn't much matter who's accusations are worse than the others... At least we are talking about the way we talk...

Personally, I think the right has more cleaning up to do but, hey, if we come outta this less divisive then everyone wins...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 09:07 PM

There is NO honor in war, only death ... The individual soldier doesn't make policy, He goes where he is ordered nothing more. Have an issue with it take it up with the powers who put him or her in harms way ..


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 09:49 PM

There is NO honor in war, only death

Whoa. Are you a Klingon? ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: LadyJean
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 11:14 PM

There were quite a few people in my old neighborhood who had mental health issues. BUT THEY WERE NEVER VIOLENT. There was one old dear who thought she was a nun, who was a bit of a trial to worshippers at the local Catholic church. But she was a peaceful nuisance. Most people with mental health problems aren't violent. Only a tiny minority are dangerous, and they are more so, because they have easy access to firearms.

You know it's a felony to own a ninja throwing star in California. But any nut can buy a gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 11:38 PM

Pretty much mouse LOL yup, but I don't got one of those funny looking swords they use. I think I would hurt myself with that blade


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:57 AM

Richard Bridge: "I am incredulous"

Well, finally we agree on something!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 04:43 AM

The difference, apparently, FFS is that I know what it means.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:52 AM

Here is an idea, for what it is worth. In a school, in a doctors office, if a child shows signs of child abuse, currently they are by law required to notify social services for a follow up investigation. If a mom takes a child to the ER room and the doctor "suspects abuse", he is required to file a report with the authorities to at least check out the home and parents.

Why are we not doing that for the mentally ill or disturbed? The first act would be to remove all firearms from the home, put an NCIC lock to prevent purchase until it is checked out. And maybe just maybe some of these people would get help Would that make sense?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 10:46 AM

Why are we not doing that for the mentally ill or disturbed?

Because it would be pointless since there's no way to legally incarcerate them any longer.

Next time you see Geraldo Rivera (a.k.a. Gerry Rivers) be sure to thank him.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM

And even if there were a legal option, no- one would be willing to pay for it. Gotta cut taxes, ya know, especially for billionaires & multi-national corporations.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:16 AM

Not exactly, Greg. It is apparently easier in Arizona. More here.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:52 AM

One of the victims in the shooting has been hospitalized for observation when he said to a founder of the Arizona Tea Party "You're dead." This was in the news this morning.

I wonder whether the same rule would have applied if he had said "you're politically dead."

The "dangerous to oneself or others" criterion for involuntary commitment has been around for at least 40 years. As a psychologist in the 70's and 80's, I had the onus of making these decisions. It is not always easy to decide...at least if you take it seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

we need to take that law more serious I think, maybe less of this stuff would occur. This young man was seriously disturbed and fell through the cracks. We do a lot to try and prevent child abuse, to try and get the dangerous drivers off the road, to try and prevent drug deaths. I don't think we do near enough to help the disturbed get help. My opinion ... we blame firearms, and a good case can be made for the easy accessibility via the gun show loophole. But the fact is, so many disturbed people are falling through the cracks of our society and when they lose it, we all lose. That is an area that needs addressed I think


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM

"...the "dangerous to oneself or others" criterion for involuntary commitment has been around for at least 40 years.

Longer than that. Serious efforts were made in the 1950s to liberate mental patients and prevent them from getting awful things done to them such as electro-shock treatment and lobotomies.

People keep bringing up the name of Reagan when talking about dumping crazy folks out into the stereet, but California's state mental hospitals had 37,000 patients in 1959, at the peak. By the beginning of 1967, when Reagan took office as governor of California, the number was down to 22,000, only about 60% of the 1959 number. That was done under "Pat" Brown, Jerry "Governor Moonbeam" Brown's father.

The California Legislature, a few months after Reagan began his first term, introduced the Lanterman-Short-Petris act which is, essentially, a mental patients "bill of rights".

I believe that L-S-P allows for involuntary commitment for up to 72 hours for the purpose of evaluation. The order to evaluate can come from only three groups of people: law enforcement officer, school teacher or judge.

What Regan did was follow the mandates of L-S-P which resulted in most institutionalised patients going into "halfway houses" by 1970.

The Pima County shariff knew about the Tucson shooter for perhaps 3 years and could have demanded that he be committed temporarily for evaluation. Had he done so, the FBI check probably would not have come back as clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 12:51 PM

Well, Ol'ster, in theory the idea of child and adult protective services is great... Reality??? Much different... Especially among the poorest among us... Believe me, it ain't that easy to get social services all worked up about abuse unless you have an air-tight case to present them...

When I was a social worker I saw too much really bad stuff... Kids you know were being abused... Child protective services people would ask, "Did you witness the abuse???" If not, then go peddle yer papers...

I mean, we all think that these agencies do more than they actually do when the time comes where you need them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 02:10 PM

Glen Beck was young once

Dopplegangers aside,
there are dots we are told we should not connect. Dots like FOX healines saying "Democrats visiously Attack Republican Women" and then 2 days later a democratic women gets her head stommped at a Rand Paul rally. Mindyou these are not a coincidence. Nor were the calls to kill or hang Obama in Sarah Palin campaign crowds, to which Ms. Palin merely smiled.

Birther Muslim death panel rumors did not erupt from a vaccume like some virtual particle. They are murderously intentional. They are openly designed to make Obama a one term president by any means necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM

Child protection agencies, and laws enabling involuntary evaluation, as Bobert suggests, sometimes seem to do little. They are hampered by a legal system which requires proof (a witness, etc.). Relatives bring actions to release the person being held responsible. School teachers and others outside the legal system are afraid that they will end up as the victims of suits or school boards who hate 'fuss'. Facilities for evaluation are short of money. Etc. Etc.

Correcting the system is difficult unless the public gets involved in a large way, and many people don't want to be bothered. Then they raise holy hell when they are affected.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM

///"Concocting connections to advance an argument actually weakens it. The argument for tonal moderation has been done a tremendous disservice by those who sought to score political points in the absence of proof."

New York Times. The Tucson Witch Hunt, Charles M. Blow, Op-Ed, January 14, 2011. ////

Except that no one has to concoct anything. I wouldn't believe a paper that hired Jason Blair and Judith Miller. I am the public and the public does not believe Jared Loughner was tea party member or was trying to carry out their agenda for them. But under no circumstances do I believe Sarah Palin is guiltless.

Here is why Sarah Palin is finished and will never survive running for another office: It doesn't matter a lick about Jared Loughner. It doesn't matter why he did it. Let's just assume he was acting completely on his own and his actions had absolutely nothing to do with the tea party or the RW rhetoric.

That's not what has ruined Palin. What ruined Palin is her actions just after the shooting. Between the time that the shooting occurred and the few hours that elapsed before the shooter was identified, Palin's map with the crosshairs came down and her statement on her FB page "Don't rettreat--instead RELOAD!" was removed. Why did she do that except that she obviously believed that she WAS responsible for the shooting. Then she remained silent for several days to make sure the tea party spin doctors made Loughner into a certifiable looney BEFORE she made any public statement.

In other words, she was destroying the evidence and whitewashing her websites in order to disavow any connection to an incident she feared that she was intimately connected to--that she, in fact, caused. Her actions are as transparent as a glass window. She was already distancing herself from her own rhetoric and tactics to prepare for the possibility that the shooter was, in fact, one of her dedicated followers. THAT is damning.

So if she somehow manages to throw her hat in the race in 2012 (and the tea party has so few candidates with any degree of mass public appeal that this is a possibility), she will be asked that: "Why did you remove your map and your 'reload' statement immediately after the shooting occurred and before anyone knew who the shooter was?"

What can she possibly answer when the only possible answer is that she was afraid that her words and tactics caused it? And why would she fear that except she knew perfectly well that the tactics were at best questionable and at worst capable of pushing a whacko to kill someone on her target list?

Then to get up a few days later and say, "See? He was just a whack job! It had nothing to do with me!" Doesn't hide the truth: she obviously thought right after the shooting that it did have something to do with her. She was acknowledging that the people who were calling for her to take down the map and tone down the rhetoric were right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:25 PM

Righto. Josz...

I mean, they even gave Palin a re-do and she and all her advisers still blew it???

Go figure... The ol' gal is a one-trick pony... Militarism and confrontation for any occasion...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Yep, she still had wiggle room if she had taken the smart tack during her last announcement and regret the rhetoric and maps and say she is done with that kind of politics. Hell, that might have made her a viable candidate. Instead, it was "I'm the real victim in all this! How dare you blame poor, little me!" Even people who thought she was being picked on turned against her if the various political forums and blogs are any indication. It wasn't the brightest thing to say.

By saying it, she blew it. Totally blew it down the toilet. She is now a spent force with a political career living on borrowed time with an expiration date stamped 2012 when it will no longer pass the smell test for even the dullest of noses.

I expect as 2012 nears, many in the tea party will read the writing on the wall and want to jettison her and others in the party won't allow it and so the tea party will fracture--is already fracturing--and it will also become a spent force. While I do believe some tea partiers have noble enough aspirations, the party as a whole deserves it for ever making room for this stupid woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM

Regrettably, she has what amounts to forever to recover. What is true today is likely to be invisible tomorrow.

No matter how much of a talking head she is presented as, she has a great probablility of shooting herself in the foot on a regular basis. Unfortunately, her faithful followers tend to to be the sort that, if she says manure is chocolate, will tend to eat it up.

Yes, Slag, I am contemptuous of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM

Oh, she won't go away. I'm not saying that but she will never be a viable candidate for the presidency after 2012. By that time, people will start looking for new blood since it will be obvious poor Sarah is just not electable. But she'll a RW Wacko cheerleader on the sidelines--that I'll guarantee.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM

I STILL don't believe she ever seriously intended to run for president. She has made millions 'hinting' that she 'might'. Being president is WORK and would require her to read boring documents...early in the morning.

As to a wide ranging Arizona law allowing almost anyone to initiate a process of incarcerating people for mental evaluation.
That sure sounds good on paper, but I can imagine why few other states have done it. It opens up things for simple harassment of folks one just 'doesn't like'...and IF they are deemed safe after evaluation, just being harassed may push a few to seek revenge....in some way. (Unless anonymity is offered to complainants.)
If every slightly 'odd' person were subject to screening, it could get out of hand.

   I am, though, in favor of some way of doing what this Arizona law seems to be after.... a way of investigating those who appear to their peers as unstable and 'treating' (whatever that might mean) them to lessen the odds of trouble... and in MY opinion, 'treating' would include putting them on a **DO NOT SELL GUNS TO THESE FOLKS** list.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 03:14 PM

Two states already have a program of trying to identify the loonies... Virginia, after Va. Teck, is one... Can't remember the other... So that leaves 48 for the loonies...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM

I have been listening to the various remembrances of the 60's and the career of Martin Luther King today. What is on the radio brings back memories of the period leading up through the resignation of Nixon. Those were scary times.

The issues have evolved somewhat since then but one thing that is coming back to me is that those were also scary and confusing times. A lot of people were being assaulted and shot by those who were determined to "protect their rights" against alla them others...the Blacks, Yankees, intellectuals, carpetbaggers who wanted to impose their values on "us," and so forth. It is unfortunate how little we have moved in almost 43 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM

Come on, let's knock off the fear and loathing shit...you are drinking from the same poison that you condemn the other lunatic with!!!..Jeez, get a clue!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM

Ok here is the bottom line, we can blame the media, the parties, our society, firearms, we can blame string theory if we want. But one thing I am certain, we are doing little to identify and help those that are truly mentally disturbed, unless we get a workable handle on that... look for more of this stuff and it doesn't have to be with a firearm either ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:39 PM

GfS, I am not putting myself on the same stage you and are referring to. I am talking about feelings and reactions. I am not putting anyone down.

What I left out is how often there was overt or covert support from local officialdom at that time.

At that time, I was one of the people on the receiving end. Even now, that can be a bit anxiety provoking. It did not keep me from working with people on both sides and it won't in the future. It certainly colors my thinking.

How many people of your acquaintance class you with "you damn liberals [and other, less polite names] who do X, Y or Z?"


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

Olddude, Good to see you're rising above the crap!

People can sometimes get infantile. A cursory reading of Matthew 5:21-22 shows that Jesus is speaking not so much about murder but of the steps that lead to it. He traces the roots of murder and war to three major sources: 1) anger, 2) hatred, and 3) the spirit of competition and aggression—in short, the self-centeredness of passionate carnality.

Oh, I forgot, some people think Jesus had nothing to say.......

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

It's not that easy, Ol-ster... States are having a lot of trouble these days balancing their budgets... That is reality... Also real is that none are spending anywhere near what they used to spend on mental health (per capita) back when I got into social work... So the question is is where is the money???

Of course, there are lots of people who just think that government is evil and ineffective and/or that money can't solve problems and unfortunately many of those people have found a safe haven in the, ahhhhh, government... That is a big problem on top of them lack of funds for mental health...

I remember when deinstitutionalization came about in a big way and the state hospitals unloaded their clients on society... Well, more on adult services social workers than anyone else... It was a mess... And not long after that we started seeing the cuts in Title XX funds that we, as scoail workers, used to purchase services such as transportation, adult day care, etc. so what we ended up with was a double whammy in that here we had massive case loads of menatlly ill people and no resources to serve them...

So for people to say that we "ought to" do this or that is all well and good but unless mental health becomes a priority, and this recent shooting won't bring about, we're kinda screwed... I'd love to see the states re-prioritize but it ain't gonna happen because it will have to be paid for... Just like sensible gun controls won't happen... Too much push back from the folks who either profit from the sales of guns or are paranoid...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

I don't disagree with ya bob, money is always a factor but somehow we have to make this a priority or just live with these continuing occurrences and that is very sad. Recently on the news here, a troubled teen murdered his whole family with a kitchen knife while they slept. Afterwords the same story, past friends saying he was hearing things and seeing visions ... neighbors saying he was so kind and nice but something changed in the last 4 years and it continues


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

30,000 people are killed with handguns every year in this country, Ol'ster... I'd say that we are way beyond being on the front edge of the repercussions of defunding our mental health agencies and hospitals... Way beyond...

The problem here is that there are forces that just don't wnat to do anything... The folks on the right who hate taxes, regardless of the fact that they are lower now than they have been in the last 50 years, have planted this "hate taxes and hate government" mindset so it is impossible to even discuss it rationally... Same with reasonable gun regulations... That discussion has been taken off the table, as well...

That's what you get when one side so totally controls the conversation... And guess what??? If 20 Congressman were shot nothing would change unless we could get private money out of politics... We have a broken system... Yeah, we can talk all we want about being civil but until the right loosens up it stranglehold on our democracy nothing will change... It will be the Wild West with most of ther cowboys being fringe loonies... Don't believe me??? Come to Richmond for one of the gun shows and just observe and listen??? You will hear more anti-Obama, anti-government, anti-human, anti-environment, anti-sanity conspiracy theorists ranting mindlessly about anything that comes into their minds...

I mean, we have a very sick society... Very sick...

Yeah, 30,000 murders??? Come on... We've not only crossed over the Loonie River but have burned the bridge behind us...


B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:47 PM

30,000? Not correct.
Handgun homicides about 8000 in 2004 (peak in 1993 with 14000). Other gun types, in 2004, about 2000.
From Wikipedia, Homicides by weapons type

(Posted in that gn control thread).


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:12 PM

I'll accept yer numbers until I find the sources who have been using the 30,000 number... BTW, this number has been in the Washington Post several times over the last couple of months... I just don't keep old newspapers...

BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct... There are moderators who struggle with folks trying to get their stuff into it... It's a push pull on a daily basis with folks trying to change the story, which BTW, is changeable...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:16 PM

Didn't take long...

You are not accounting for the 14,000 or so suicides, Q... They count, too, when we are talking about handguns...

More later...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

EBarnacle sez Regrettably, she has what amounts to forever to recover. What is true today is likely to be invisible tomorrow

And what's truth to a Tea Partier anyway?

Bill D sez I am, though, in favor of some way of doing what this Arizona law seems to be after.... a way of investigating those who appear to their peers as unstable and 'treating' (whatever that might mean) them to lessen the odds of trouble... and in MY opinion, 'treating' would include putting them on a **DO NOT SELL GUNS TO THESE FOLKS** list.

That would involve, um, gun control. And even one gun control law clearly puts us on a slippery slope to a gunless USA. Or so sez the NRA and its minions. Making this a "good effing luck" sort of proposition.

olddude sez: Ok here is the bottom line, we can blame the media, the parties, our society, firearms, we can blame string theory if we want. But one thing I am certain, we are doing little to identify and help those that are truly mentally disturbed, unless we get a workable handle on that... look for more of this stuff and it doesn't have to be with a firearm either ...

But that would require public spending.

Bobert sez: If 20 Congressman were shot nothing would change unless we could get private money out of politics...

If 20 Republican congressmen were shot, something would certainly change. They would find a way to make it the Democrats' fault and haul all their asses to prison -- or something unsavory.

And goes on to say: BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct... There are moderators who struggle with folks trying to get their stuff into it... It's a push pull on a daily basis with folks trying to change the story, which BTW, is changeable...

Particularly the political hot button issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM

30,896 in 2006

library.med.utah


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:37 PM

Yer correct, mouse, but if we look back at recent history --- you know, like the last 40 years -- the folks gettin' offed are on the left side of the political divide... Plus, it ain't the left that is pissed off at government, been told it's okay to fuck someone up with "2nd Amendment" remedies and the real biggie here...

... is armed to the teeth... I read recently that there are 9 guns for every 10 people in America... Throw in alot of kids and old people in nursing home and lefties who tend to not buy into that "Obama is going to take yer guns" making folks run to the gun stores to stock up and what we have is one heck of alot of righties packin' lots of heat...

That ain't meant to be "uncivil" thems just the facts...

Yeah, everyone says that both sides should be listening to the other side but the right side has had the mi9crophone so long that it's their side that gets repeated over and over and over... I mean, there is not one issue that I could argue the right's position on right off the top of my head... That's how much the left has had to listen, like it or not, to this drumbeat of rightwinged propaganda... No, this ain't about civility... When is it time for the right to have to listen???

(Never, Boberdz... That's when... We own everything and if you don't like it, go **** yerself...)

Yeah, that's about it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:23 AM

Ebbie, I have re-read my posts and I do not know what you are referring to or where you picked up your obvious misquote. Almost and murder??? Huh?

The thing about rights, our God-given rights according to the Declaration, is that they are your rights! You can't give them up as they are unalienable. They are part and parcel of what you are as a human being. If you abuse your rights at the expense of another person's rights then you have jeopardized your rights and a jury of peers can take various actions to remedy the abuse or abuses. Everyone has the right to defend their life and the lives of the innocent folks in their house and community. And we have the right to be able to meet force with force sufficient to counter whatever force is weilded aganst us, hence we have the right to keep and bear arms. It is the resposiblity of the person to conduct himself or herself in a way that does not threaten or abuse the rights of others and our laws are, or were originally, designed to delineate those responsibilities and to provide penalty and compensation for abuses.

If someone has demonstrated mental illness of the type and to the degree which constitutes a threat, they need to be identified and limited in their personal sovereignty, that is as a free moral agent.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:53 AM

BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct..

Jeez- BlogOPedia WRONG?? Can't be.Say it ain't so! Its posted on the Internet - gotta be true!!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:02 PM

Some comic relef:

Hi, I am a Teapartier!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM

relief.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:31 PM

Now Palin says that she didn't take the map down from her site nor was it any of her advisers but rather the graphic artist who made the map. Yeah, apparently this guy, whoever he is, can just go on Palin's site and add or remove anything he wants to. Why did he decide to take it down? He felt responsible. Not Palin, the artist. HE felt responsible, she couldn't give half a shit.

I suppose he also had total access to her Facebook page and took down the "Don't retreat instead reload" statement as well.

Kind of makes you wonder who is running things at Palin Central.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM

Forget Sarah Plain, josz... She has completely marginalized herself this time...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

Bobert, read your own posts- you said 30,000 murders at the end of your post 17 Jan.
I posted a correction.

The U. S. has a suicide rate of 11.1 per 100,000 population, ranking 40th on the list, a relatively low rate, Canucks at 11.6, 35th on the list. The Brits have a low rate, but France, Finland, etc. have a high rate (17 per 100,000).

Suicides have nothing to do with handgun violence; it is largely a mental health problem, plus those choosing a quick way out of life-ending illnesses. For those wanting to depart this scene, a gun is quicker than hanging or poison, and jumping out of a high window leaves a mess to be cleaned up.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:27 PM

In my book suicide is murder... It is the one sin that cannot be forgiven...

And one does have to wonder how many suicides would be prevented if there weren't so many guns... Can't be proven one way or another... Yeah, one can make a statement that "Ralph would have just found another way to kill himself"... That is opinion...

So to say that suicide has nothing to do with handgun violence is your opinion, Q... Maybe you haven't personally had to deal with a family member who has committed suicide... Ask folks who have... It most certainly is violence... Like I said, the only sin for which God cannot forgive...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM

Slag sez: [b]The thing about rights, our God-given rights according to the Declaration, is that they are your rights! You can't give them up as they are unalienable. They are part and parcel of what you are as a human being. [/b]

So you don't believe the state has the right to incarcerate or to inflict capital punishment?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

Note that the rights enumerated in the Declartion of Independence say nothing about guns, even though they do address quartering soldiers in private homes.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM

Nothing to do with the shooting of Giffords, but suicide is a good way to end a painful, uncurable condition. One shot between the eyes and goodnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

Not many people commit suicide to end a painful, uncurable condition...

The entire de-valuation of life permeates our society... If it's not the 300,000,000 guns, most of which are people-killing handguns it's our graphic movies, video games, music, etc... The 31 round clip sends a loud message that life has little value... People don't hunt with Glocks... They buy them to shoot people... Or target practice so that they will have higher skills at shooting people... Having been in a shoot club as a youngster and military training I am purdy darned good with a gun, one shot at a time... I fired a Glock a couple years ago and once the first round is fired the accuracy goes way down if opne is firing rapidly... Now I'm sure that Rap can handle a Glock a little better but the issue here is that in the average shooter's hands a Glock, especially with 31 rounds and adrenalin pumping is a very dangerous weapon...

Had someone at the Safeway parking lot in Tuscon had a Glock, unless they were ***highly skilled*** then it could have been twice the number of people shot... But like who cares, right Q???

I mean, let's get real here... No, the politics aren't right now but the US will have to face it's anti-human side at some point in time in the future... This isn't just about the "bad guys"... It's about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.... Death = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

I wholeheartedly disagree with yer opinions on guns and the role they play in devaluing life... I also disagree with your opinion that suicide is not violent... Those are, IMO, anti-human opinions...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM

I feel that there ought to be a right to commit suicide.

I also feel that Bobert's analysis above about where the gun violence is coming from is right.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM

Bobert!!! Unforgiven! Now in how many ways are we killing ourselves? I mean other than guns, bridges and nooses? Let's see, well, the easy ones are smoking, excess drinking, how about sex with partners with potential STDs that are fatal? Too much mayonaise in the diet? Speeding or unsafe lane changes? High school sports with statistically proven fatallity rates? Walking unsafe streets? Drug abuse? making book with ISF? etc. So many of us are killing ourselves slowly so that makes a difference? Do you know the human body's capacity for unrelenting pain of say certain cancers which are going to inevitable end in death? I have nothing but empathy for these folks and total forgiveness. I know that my God is at least as loving and forgiving than I am. In fact much more, infinitely more loving and forgiving than I! I can't judge the actions of folks, the lives of whom I do not know and pains I cannot know. Self murder? or self inflicted death with repentance aforethought? This life IS a living death. The fortunate among us do not have to realize that until the very end but it is a truth that is in play from the very moment of our comceptions. All will die with varying amounts of pleasure and pain dispropartionately scattered throughout the time we walk this planet. Please rethink your statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

Mouseklepto, I sure get tired of responding to people who read only half of what is posted or in regards to phantom statements which I did not make. Had you continued to read you would have noted that I said, in effect, that your rights end where mine begins. You do not have the right to violate the free exercise of my rights and vice versa, that peers could judge the matter and inflict penalty and remedies. Gee! No wonder there is so much arguement.

Bobert, some people are like nitro-glycerine. How they get that way can be a story of many pages but they get that way and then they are like a force of nature, like a lightening strike. The big and sad difference is that the explosion is usually directed at someone or something which they preceive as the cause of their mental anguish. Obviously this mental state can be induced in others and used for political purposes as in the case of suicide bombers. In some it is self-induced and in others it perhaps is a force of nature. The means they use might be a Glock 19 or a truckload of fertilizer, a sword a knife or Kung-fu. It is the mental garbage that is at fault, not the insturmentallity.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM

Yeah, Slag... That is some messed up reasoning on yer part... Sounds like it came right out of a NRA propaganda brochure entitled "101 ways to tell the sane people to shut the *** up"...

I mean, if you can't see the difference between a guy diein' from a heart attack because he is slammed working 50 hours a week, doesn't have time to exercise, yeah, eats the wrong foods and a guy who comes from home from work, walks in the bathroom, sticks a pistol in his mouth and blows the back of his head out to be discovered by his kids then I feel sorry for you... That is the most pathetic rebuttal I think I've read here at Mudcat in a long, long time... Maybe the most!!!

Please don't ever tell me about your Faith again... MY God don't think like you...

BTW, my Faith says confess yer sins and sin no more... Ain't no loopholes where you get to like "buy" forgiveness prior to the sin... Show me anywhere in the Bible that says that God allows us to pre-pay for forgiveness of sin... You can't, because it ain't in there... I'm not saying that you might not still get into Heaven, I am saying that that sin is the only sin for which you cannot be forgiven...

And worse yet... Suicide is not only violent and sinful but it is downright hateful for the family and friends... Good Christians don't stick pistols in their mouths and pull the trigger...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM

Most if not all suicides are caused by one and only 1 factor. Severe depression caused by mental illness I think. They will take pills, use a gun, jump off a bridge but in short it is a very sad mental illness and the thinking is that no one cares, and usually no one recognizing it before it gets to that point.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

Mouseklepto, I sure get tired of responding to people who read only half of what is posted or in regards to phantom statements which I did not make. Had you continued to read you would have noted that I said, in effect, that your rights end where mine begins. You do not have the right to violate the free exercise of my rights and vice versa, that peers could judge the matter and inflict penalty and remedies. Gee! No wonder there is so much arguement.

Ah, I didn't expect you to contradict yourself. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM

Yeah, suicide does come from depression... The fact is that with 300,000,000 guns in the US there seems to be one within reach when people suffer from the lows of depression... Throw in the fact that we aren't spending any money on mental health and the abundance of readily available and loaded guns everywhere you look it's no wonder that we are seeing 14,000 suicides a year...

I mean, let's get real here... This shooting in Arizona ain't the first of these and won't be the last.... Just today a couple of kids in school in LA got shot... I mean, WTF??? We have a series of major disconnects with sane policies in this country... Too many guns and too many people with serious mental problems on the street... Throw in the "2nd amenders" and we are in the perfect storm for more and more Tucsons... Used to be that we'd get a postal worker once a year... Now they are comin' in droves...

Do you realize that I can be the most insane person you know, drive to Richmond and buy an AK-47 (with the book on how to make it an automatic weapon) and walk, yes fuckin' walk, to the Virginia General Assembly with it in plain sight and sit in the gallery of the House of Delegates with a fully loaded AK-47 watching the proceedings and I have broken not one law???

That, my friends, is insane policy!!! Check it out!!! Yeah, the Virginia General Assembly is going to take up a repeal of the law they passed allowing people to come to government building packing heat but the NRA values $$$$$$$$$$$$ over life so until some somabich opens fire and kills about 45 General Assembly members in some fit of madness then the NRA is gonna get what it wants... What next??? AK-47s in the US Capitol in the hands of the spectators in the gallery???

I mean, this is insanity... 300 million fucking guns for 318 million people, half of them kids or in nursing homes, and we wonder why the US is the murder capitol of the so-called developed-nations world???

Beam me up, Scotty... There is no sanity left here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:04 PM

No, better yet...

AK-47s in baby's cribs...

Well, someone might break into the house while dad is at work and shoot mommy and then baby become the last line of defense...

Seed how insane this all is???

Can anyone defend arming insane people and letting them into government buildings???

I mean, lets get real here!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:20 AM

Well like we said, there needs to be some serious revision in some of the states (especially yours bobster) lets get rid of the gun show loophole. I think every responsible gun owner knows that you cannot let anyone and everyone carry anything without knowing they are stable and not criminals .. and certain types of weapons, I don't think anyone wants to defend that either. Crap, I don't want your crazy shoot at the house neighbor with a fully auto weapon either .. We just need to get to the root of the issue, that is mental health and how we as a nation are going to address it or not address it. Money is a huge factor I agree, I just don't know if we can afford to not do something anymore ... don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 12:54 PM

I agree, Ol'ster... As I have poined out, I was a social worker in "adult services" when deinstitutionalization hit and it was a nightmare then and it is a nightmare now... There just aren't the services out there for the number of folks who need them... This comes down to money and as long as we have the right owning the media then count this issue just one of many on their list of things that we are not going to talk about...

This is 100% about media ownership because, unlike the 60s and 70s when we had lots of documentaries about serious issues, the tables have turned and Boss "Rupert" Hogg has gobbled it all up and in doing so has squashed real debate... All we hear is Boss Hog's side...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM

" We just need to get to the root of the issue, that is mental health ..."

I think I posted way back up there that mental illness and just plain dangerous people have been with us since the beginning of time.....maybe it is excess testosterone plus an unhappy childhood- who knows?
We will always have some form of disturbed and potentially dangerous people around, and there is only a limited amount we can do about them. Sure... we should try, and we should do our best to identify and help/control them, but it would be FAR easier to control/limit their access to guns...both number & type---and to ammo.
I do NOT see why laws and procedures cannot be designed to allow only certain types of guns to the 'general populace' and SEVERELY limit by screening who can legally possess other types and who can 'carry'.

   There are, simply, a lot of folks who 'just like having guns' and buy into fake logic about 'self-defense'. I heard a statistic the other day that 1/3 of deaths in 'home invasion' incidents were due to guns that were found IN the home by intruders and stolen or taken away BY the intruders! I can't easily imagine a routine where I'd feel 'safer' in my house with guns secreted about.... you just can't keep one in your hand or strapped on at all times!

There is just no way to "legislate human nature"... idiots and jerks and just plain incompetents ...(including children)... are out there in growing numbers, and in many other ways we have laws to protect us from them...highway laws, caps on pill bottles, seat belts, helmets for cyclists, restrictions on who can buy explosives, prescription-only drugs, registration of sex offenders, ankle devices to monitor parolees, ....and whole list of others. These can be nuisances, but they DO something. But closing the loopholes in gun laws are fought so hard by the NRA that some congressmen are terrified of crossing the NRA.

We can agree that there are SO many guns already out there that any simplistic 'banning' is close to impossible....but little to NO regulations? Pooh!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 03:19 PM

Bobert: "Beam me up, Scotty... There is no sanity left here..."


GfS has left the room!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 03:34 PM

By former Rep. Alan Grayson:
******************************************************************
When I opened my web browser yesterday, at yahoo.com, there was Sarah Palin, smiling at me.

"Oh, God," I said to myself, "what has she done now?"

The headline was "Palin Defends 'Blood Libel'". That's interesting, I thought. What else might Palin be defending? Cannibalism, maybe?

Well, it turned out to be a report on Palin's disjointed remarks on Sean Hannity's show, regarding the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. I then watched the report. Let me summarize it for you:

Palin: I am so misunderstood.
Hannity: I am so misunderstood.
Palin: I am so misunderstood.

But there was one person who seemed to understand Sarah Palin quite well. Gabby Giffords, herself, during the health care debate. Discussing threats against Democratic Members of Congress. After the door to her office was shattered. This is what Gabby said:

"You know, for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is the way that she has depicted it is the crosshairs of a gun-sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize that there are consequences to that action."

And here is Palin's blithe response, on Hannity's show: "That map wasn't an original graphic."

What is that remark supposed to be, Sarah? An exculpanation?

Even before I heard earlier Palin's whining about "misguided finger-pointing" and "irresponsible statements from people who are apportioning blame," I thought about this:

Palin came to my district, and told her people to "take me out."

Palin told people again and again, "don't retreat, reload."

The day before the health care vote, one of my five-year-old twins received a telephone death threat intended for me.

A right-wing commentator offered anyone $100 to punch me in the nose.

We received so many threats of violence from teabaggers that we started a file.

And the day before Gabby was shot, I received a postcard saying "you better get some personal protection. You could very well be getting your ass kicked soon."

Cause and effect. As Gabby put it, "there are consequences."

Of course, I wasn't the only target of these threats.

Gabby's tea party opponent held fundraisers in which he invited contributors to fire an automatic weapon.

Democrat Debbie Wasserman-Schultz's opponent conducted target practice on her initials.

Democrat Ron Klein's opponent told his supporters to make sure that Klein was "afraid to leave his house."

Democrat Frank Kratovil was hung in effigy.

Democrat Tom Perriello was burned in effigy. And the gas line to his brother's house was cut.

Democrat Emanuel Cleaver – a minister – was spat on.

Democrat Russ Carnahan had a coffin left at his home.

I could go on, but you get the point. Cause and effect. "There are consequences."

And the Republicans? The shot supposedly fired at Republican Eric Cantor's office was quickly exposed as a hoax.

As I observed on MSNBC last week, there has been a stream of violence and threats of violence by the right wing against Democrats. Gabby warned against it, and then became a terrible victim of it. Palin has instigated it, and then tried to pretend that it doesn't exist.

What do I think? I think that Gabby said it best: "We can't stand for this." We have to stand against it.

Courage,

Alan Grayson
******************************************************************


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM

Tia, do you have a link for that? I'd like to use it elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM

Just so.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: TIA
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:07 PM

Here's the link:

http://www.examiner.com/alan-grayson-in-national/alan-grayson-palin-has-instigated-violence-against-democrats

Alan Grayson


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: TIA
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:07 PM

And another one well worth checking out:

http://www.truth-out.org/files/images/cartoon011911.jpg

Tom Tomorrow


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 07:42 PM

Not, of course, that we should do anything so outre as discuss, Congresswoman Giffords, but it is worth noting that she is about to be moved into rehabilitation where they will begin the process of retraining the motor skills damaged by her injury.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 07:44 PM

Hooray!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:19 PM

Now this is interesting.   Not completely relevant, perhaps, but certainly related.

Student came to a school in the LA school district with a gun in his backpack--appears to have happened yesterday. Gun accidentally went off.   Fractured girl's skull, grazed boy in the neck.   She is in critical condition; he is in fair condition.

What was the gun?    Surprise, surprise, a Glock semi-automatic.

Source:   Wall St Journal, 19 Jan 2011.



So let's have our stalwart defenders of the 2nd Amendment tell us just why anybody outside the military and the police should have these weapons.

It seems reasonable that hunters should be able to slaughter all the game they want without semi-automatic pistols.

The human carnage caused by people using them is out of hand.   Even hunters should be able to see this.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 12:19 AM

Hey, When one 'theory' after another one falls down. which THEY ALL have, (talk radio, Palin, Rush, Hannity, Obama Care, guns,...everything but the guy was a loony, acting out)you might try, the one size fits all reason for the shooting.....'Global Warming'!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM

The ghost of Spiro Agnew has just spoken thru GfinS....


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: TIA
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

Nope, the one-size-fits-all theory would be that this could have been prevented by *Tax Cuts*


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

...and I'm sure **Jesus** would agree that *Tax Cuts* would stop Global Warming...and no doubt Spiro Agnew would agree.


I am so pleased to hear of Giffords' continued progress and her husband's unceasing support. This guy will 'probably' be giving up one of last two space shuttle flights in order to stay with her.
If she is able...after a time... to resume her place in Congress, I'm sure there will be rejoicing of many sorts....


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:29 PM

Pease correct me if I'm wrong, but a read somewhere that Mrs Giffords was "anti gun control"

If that was the case, could it not be argued that she herself contributed to the tragedy?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:51 PM

One record, Ake, you are correct... But keep in mind that we have gun control already... So it comes down to lots of ins and outs and if yer gonna be able to get elected you purdy much have to not push too hard on the NRA least they will throw enough money at yer opponent and you'll be unemployed...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

Thanks Bob!

Seems that American politics is just as corrupt as UK politics

Is power the only thing which motivates politicians these days....Is there no one with conviction in the centre?


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:33 PM

"Pease correct me if I'm wrong, but a read somewhere that Mrs Giffords was "anti gun control"

If that was the case, could it not be argued that she herself contributed to the tragedy? "


Actually - No. And to claim she was would be just silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

Ake
you should never say that, screw the guns, there are hammers all over the place also but I don't say they are the reason someone caves in the skull of another person. We cannot lose focus and think that taking away every weapon in the world is gonna make something like this not happen, that is completely wrong thinking. Anyone wants to talk to me about sane gun restrictions vs insane loose gun laws I am most everyone else will say for sure we need to limit, restrict and have tight controls on carry. But remember one thing, a sick person or a criminal will use whatever they want to kill. You don't need a gun folks. ya can cook up C-4 in your sink if you know how to do it. Lets stay focus and try to figure out how we can identify and prevent the next mental ill person from doing the same or worse. He could have just as easily ran his car though the crow also .. We need to fix the problem at its root


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

As posted earlier, Congresswoman Giffords owned and was proficient with a Glock; but of course the weapon is not suitable when surrounded by a crowd.
I would guess that she would be for adequate restrictions on guns but would not favor eliminating them.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:20 PM

Dan...you have put forward this argument several times..

"But remember one thing, a sick person or a criminal will use whatever they want to kill. You don't need a gun folks. ya can cook up C-4 in your sink if you know how to do it. Lets stay focus and try to figure out how we can identify and prevent the next mental ill person from doing the same or worse. "

...but I have answered several times with a counter-argument, and I'm not sure you have given my position fair play. I don't 'think' you have directly replied to it.

When you assert that 'other things' can be used to kill, you are absolutely correct... but it avoids the point that most of those 'other things' design and function is to do things not connected to projecting a missile directly at something. Hammers & knives and baseball bats and rocks and cars and ropes and crowbars...etc... would be hard to 'restrict' or ban without making daily life quite difficult. Many countries do just fine every day with MUCH fewer weapons...in total and per capita.

....and making C-4 and similar explosives is NOT gonna be adopted by millions of amateurs, or used to rob 7-11s, or hidden under coats in gang wars.

Guns just make it all easier when someone decides, whether planned or on sudden impulse, to do harm to others.

In the Wash DC area where I live,there was a lot of gang violence and stupid shooting at nightclubs and drive-bys. One young kid was asked why he couldn't have settled his dispute by a good ol-fashioned fist-fight or something... he said: (paraphrased)"Man, that's hard...and takes too long! You got a gun, and somebody disses you, and you just catch 'em and off 'em! You don't mess around..."

With so many guns easily available, it has become just a standard way of settling arguments over girlfriends or perceived insults....sorta like stupid 'dueling' in the early colonies, but with no tedious formalities.

You KNOW that if I knew YOU were carrying near me, I wouldn't particularly worry, but YOU aren't the problem...except in so far as, in protecting YOUR privileges, you help make it easier for millions who CANNOT be trusted. If you were only defending very carefully restricted access, like Canada, the UK and many other nations, I would not type so much...but this repetition of the idea that "fixing the problem at its root" by finding and monitoring or curing all the nut cases is disingenuous.

Asserting that "guns aren't the problem..people kill people" is a worn out rhetorical device which ignores and distorts what actually happens.

*I* am not, as I said a dozen times, advocating ..."taking away every weapon in the world...", or even hunting rifles...or even YOUR guns or the guns of FULLY certified and trained and vetted people with a NEED to own them. But today there is a huge gap between sensible rules and the "wild West" where some are advocating that "if more people had guns, we'd all be safer!" THAT is self-deception and has been proven wrong...

Please... defend what NEEDS defending, but don't fall into the easy slogans that the NRA loves to hear!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

bill we are in agreement, no disagreement here about some of the very loose state gun laws ... when I read someone posting she is part responsible for the tragedy because she owns a weapon I shake my head and say that is really sick thinking ...


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:29 PM

I will disagree with you whole heartily in regard to mental illness. it is your contention then that we do nothing to identify these types of people ... again I will say root cause, you guys will say hell it is all about guns ... and the killing will continue .. I don't buy into this crap that there is no money, well ya but we better find some because more and more people are seriously disturbed ... so we better do something cause that is the real cause ... the gun is the tool, yup get a national standard, we all agree .. but you want to know what caused this tragedy, it wasn't his glock, it was his illness that everyone who saw it coming did NOTHING about it .. and then it happened


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:29 PM

Bill is entirely correct... Guns make things much easier... And having them around does not make anyone more safe... Studies have shown that households with handguns are more apt to have one or member of the household shot with a handgun... There is also no truth to the mythology that the NRA pumps out that handguns save lives... If you take the police out of the equation then the stats go way the other way...

300,000,000 handguns and upwards of 30,000 dieing from gunshots in the US every year...

Back to the hammer as a weapon... If Bubba comes at me with one I have a good chance of surviving, maybe uninjured... If Bubba has a gun my odds go way down... Like to zero...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM

hell yes they make it easier, hell yes we need to fix states like you live in .. 100% agree, but the killing will continue, I make the same argument with DUI, lady 30 miles away wiped out an entire family ... 4 DUI convictions, this time she killed a whole family .. she should have been in jail after the first one ... That is my point ... sure fix the loose gun laws .. we all agree but we better do something about disturb people cause every night ya hear the neighbors afterwords saying "I KNEW something was wrong with him" God Almighty how many more need to die .. Columbine ... same thing .. after the fact everyone says how disturbed the kids were that killed all their classmates .. Yes guns make it a hell of a lot easier ... so did their pipe bomb, knives and every other thing they had on them. We need to fix this mental issues and start putting some money someplace


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:52 PM

The gun is the preferred tool by most because it is readily available in most states .. Changing the tool .. and you still have the carnage. Yes we need to fix many states gun laws ... they are insane. But lets fix the person also or figure out how many more coffins we need to buy.

I read where there was proposal to have to blow into a device before you can start your car , some said make it mandatory on all cars... this would prevent drunk drivers .. well for people who have a DUI they should never be allowed on the road again. But because of "loose" laws that vary from state to state they keep getting their license back with a slap on the wrist .. and people die because of it ... But I sure ain't gonna say it is the cars fault either.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

Does anyone know what the lady's views on gun ownership were?

If she was in favour of the status quo, surely as a policy maker she bears some responsibility for the deaths and her own serious injury.

At least as much responsibility as is being heaped upon Mrs Palin.


And olddude, I never cited responsibility for the shootings on the fact that SHE owned a gun, rather in her belief that guns should be freely available


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:28 PM

"... it is your contention then that we do nothing to identify these types of people..."

Oh, NO! I HAVE agreed that it's a fine idea to do all that we can to improve identification and treatment of mental illness! I think I could find at least 3 posts of mine in the last 2 weeks showing I consider it an important part of solving the problems... all I have said is that we will never run out of disturbed people!
   When I was a kid, I remember reading of Howard Unrauh, a veteran who shot a bunch of people in New York in the 1950s. He was fine...until he WASN'T fine. And there are many, many who are not considered clinically 'crazy' who would just as soon shoot you as look at you.

   I am ALL FOR treating ALL forms of mental illness...but I do NOT wish to wait until most of them are cured or confined to feel safe from most guun violence. (There have been shootings within a couple of miles of me the last few years...robberies and family violence..etc. Most of those folks were not 'ill'...but just stupid and greedy and lazy)


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:40 PM

Ol'ster, it's like this... You wake up and you find that someone has slashed all yer tires... Replacing one with the spare ain't gonna fix squat...

We have a complex situation here and we are ignoring all the components...

We have a gun problem...

We have a mental health problem...

We have economic problems...

We have have a poverty problem...

We have a drug problem...

We have a problem with folks who think that government is the enemy problem...

We have a problem with the way we communicate...

We have a problem with our Congress...

We have a problem with our schools...

I mean, until our country is willing to take a hard look at our problem*s* then, yeah, we will continue to be a civilization in decline...

Hillary Clinton in her book "It Takes a Village" understood this very well... It does take a village... It will take all kinds of things to fix this country... Not just guns tho that is a good starting point...

We used to fund "Midnight basketball"... Remember that??? In areas where it was funded the crime and killings went down... It wasn't an expensive program by George Bush cut the funds for it...
And crime went back up...

Hey, this really is the crux of the dilemma that faces America... The right says that the government should be shut down except for fighting wars and the left says it ain't doin' enough... Meanwhile, while the right continues its 40 year stranglehold on power and access to the media, the US is slipping down in every statistic that is good and skyrocketing in all the ones that are bad...

That is reality...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:01 PM

They should never be freely available and I will agree with that 100%. We don't let people drive without first passing a test but in some states you sure can have a firearm, and that you bet is insanity and I will agree with you on those points. I just want to figure out how to find and stop these guys from getting to this point. I guess I don't know what the answer is


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:49 PM

Dan... it should be clear that there IS no one, simple answer... we need to address many issues at the same time, and we should not take any option off the table when the safety and confidence of our citizens is at stake. Happy, sane, competent people who do not fear each other is a worthy goal to aim for...but when have we ever had this?   
   If we can reduce violence by 10%, it is a good start...maybe we can figure out how to make that 20% after awhile.....if diagnosing and treating mental problems get better, and regulating weapons & ammo gets smarter, we just may get some indications what works BEST.

I sure hope so!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:58 PM

We sho nuff had it in the mid to late 50s, Bill... I don't remember anyone I knew getting shot... Might of fact, folks didn't have all the guns they have today... You had a problem with another kid then you duke it out... Period...

But like you and I have now pointed out... We've gotten ourselves in such a pickle that it's gonna take alot of things to get US out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:54 PM

Still waiting for--anybody--to tell us why people not in the military or police need semi-automatic pistols.

They are used--and abused constantly--to kill people.   The incident I cited yesterday is only one of a never-ending series.

If there is a good reason for normal citizens to have them, let's hear it.

I'm not even talking about pistols in general, just semi-automatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 11:46 PM

In re: the comment that the Congresswoman was skilled with a glock. She could have carried it had she chosen to. In this situation, unless she reacted instantly, it probably would not have saved her.

She did not exhibit the the fear and distrust that makes it necessary for many to carry a weapon in public, either openly or concealed. I hope that does not change.

I am not convinced that the current interpretation of gun rights will stand at the Supreme Court level. At some point, the whole of the phrase "well regulated militia" will come to dominate the interpretation of the second amendment.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:52 AM

I've never heard one single gun nut even bring up the first portion of the 2nd amendment...

Not one and I live in the gun nut capitol of the universe, Virginia...

Go figure???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:17 AM

According to this morning's news, she is well enough to be moved to a rehab facility.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:43 AM

In the 1950's there were virtually no gun laws Bobster, you could order a .45 cal pistol right from guns and ammo magazine delivered right to your door. yet like you say, shooting were so rare. What changed, drugs, gangs, a rise in mental illness. In states like mine we have the hardest gun controls in the nation, In DC all guns of every type banned. Yet the killing continues. Somewhere our society changed. Now we find out what and try our best to fix it. I read someplace that if we eliminated the gun show, over 60% of the illegal guns would be taken off the street, that is a law that makes sense. I have no problem with semi - auto's the problem I have is people who are not certified and trained with them, yup that is a law we need also since those weapons require much more training than a wheel gun. complex issues here, lets start but plugging the gun show law, lets get some federal standards on concealed carry .. yup .. I am with ya ... but lets find and address those that maybe constitute a threat via early intervention. Find the money for that also. All good stuff


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM

I agree, Ol'ster... If we required people to show a certificate of training to purchase any particular gun that would be a major step forward... No certificate, no gun... I mean, there are lots of different kinds of guns and the more dangerous the more training would be required...

Closing the gun show loophole would also do alot...

But the NRA ain't gonna let such a discussion to take place... Let alone consideration...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:39 PM

I have seen sportsmen like myself leave the NRA in droves. They use to be about hunting and shooting sports, they then turned to the dark side of the force for sure for power and political gain. Now I rank them up there with Rush L. Very few sane people support their entire position. About the only thing good about them is their safety courses are still first rate ... everything else ... forget it


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:00 PM

The Republican Party in Arizona's Pima County, which is represented by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), is in the midst of a fundraising raffle, $10 per entry.

The prize: the same model of gun that delivered a near-fatal blast to the Democratic lawmaker's skull outside a Tucson grocery store in January.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/01/gop-in-giffords-district-holds-raffle-for-glock/


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:17 PM

Normal...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:48 PM

Bad taste knows no bounds, does it? I'd love to be Moe to their Curly - and deliver the dope slap they deserve. :)



SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 06:31 AM

Different model, different caliber, same brand.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 07:41 AM

"The gun is a Glock 23, an updated model of the Glock 19 Jared Loughner used during his January 8, 2011 shooting spree that killed six and injured 13 others, including Giffords."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 08:22 AM

"The gun is a Glock 23, an updated model of the Glock 19 Jared Loughner used during his January 8, 2011 shooting spree that killed six and injured 13 others, including Giffords."


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 09:34 AM

Lordy, Lordy, ya gotta love them Tea Potty folks, dontcha? What a sense of humor!


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 02:39 PM

Well, no - the Model 19 is a 9mm concealable model and the model 23 is a .40 cal. full-sized one. They both came out in July 2010; neither is an undated model of the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM

I am just quoting from the article -- the point is moot however.


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Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 12:45 PM

Whoever wins the raffle gets to shoot the next congressperson. You think I'm kidding?


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