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BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?

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GUEST,bankley 12 Jan 11 - 01:43 PM
JohnInKansas 12 Jan 11 - 01:29 PM
Mrrzy 09 Jan 11 - 07:26 PM
JohnInKansas 09 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM
mayomick 09 Jan 11 - 06:13 PM
mayomick 09 Jan 11 - 06:07 PM
Mrrzy 09 Jan 11 - 02:36 PM
Lox 09 Jan 11 - 11:43 AM
DougR 08 Jan 11 - 05:31 PM
Mrrzy 08 Jan 11 - 12:32 PM
JohnInKansas 08 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM
Ed T 08 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM
JohnInKansas 08 Jan 11 - 02:55 AM
Ed T 07 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM
bobad 07 Jan 11 - 06:51 PM
gnu 07 Jan 11 - 06:40 PM
Ed T 07 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM
gnu 07 Jan 11 - 05:33 PM
Ed T 07 Jan 11 - 05:12 PM
JohnInKansas 07 Jan 11 - 04:56 PM
gnu 07 Jan 11 - 04:31 PM
bobad 07 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM
Ed T 07 Jan 11 - 04:04 PM
Lox 07 Jan 11 - 04:02 PM
Lox 07 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM
gnu 07 Jan 11 - 03:49 PM
acegardener 07 Jan 11 - 03:35 PM
JohnInKansas 07 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM
bobad 06 Jan 11 - 11:08 PM
Bobert 06 Jan 11 - 11:07 PM
GUEST 06 Jan 11 - 10:22 PM
Ed T 06 Jan 11 - 10:21 PM
Lox 06 Jan 11 - 09:52 PM
bobad 06 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM
olddude 06 Jan 11 - 08:22 PM
olddude 06 Jan 11 - 08:20 PM
Lox 06 Jan 11 - 08:19 PM
Bobert 06 Jan 11 - 08:06 PM
JohnInKansas 06 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM
Ed T 05 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM
Lox 05 Jan 11 - 06:02 PM
Ed T 05 Jan 11 - 05:57 PM
Lox 05 Jan 11 - 05:49 PM
olddude 05 Jan 11 - 05:39 PM
olddude 05 Jan 11 - 05:30 PM
gnu 05 Jan 11 - 05:19 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:43 PM

according to evangelist Cindy Jacobs (who exorcises gay demons)
this is God's punishment for the repeal of 'Don't ask, Don't Tell'


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:29 PM

Nothing Mysterious

Reuters
1/12/2011

BUCHAREST (Reuters Life!) - There was nothing mysterious about the death of a flock of birds in Romania last week -- they were simply drunk, veterinarians said.

Residents of the Black Sea city of Constanta alerted authorities Saturday after they found dozens of dead starlings, fearing they may have been infected with bird flu , which triggered mass deaths in avian populations in 2004-2006.

"Tests on five birds showed gizzards full of grape marc which caused their death," Romeu Lazar, head of the city's veterinary authority told Reuters, referring to a pulpy residue which is a by-product of winemaking.

"This also applies to two dead crows we tested," Lazar said. Birds are not used to alcohol but harsh winter and snow had prevented birds from finding food. Had they been able to eat some seeds, this would have diluted the poison."

The grape marc was presumed to have come from a winery, but the veterinary chief said he did not know where.
There have been a series of unexplained mass bird deaths in several countries across the globe in the last few weeks, including in the United States and Sweden.

Hundreds of dead birds were discovered in Louisiana this month and 5,000 in Arkansas at New Year. Swedish authorities have also been investigating the deaths of 100 jackdaws found in a street in Falkoping. Experts say storms, hail, lightning or collisions with airplanes or power lines are among the possible causes of bird deaths.
Copyright 2011 Thomson Reuters. Click for restrictions.

And:

First Birds, Now Crickets

msnbc.com news services
1/12/2011

PORT ALLEN, La. — A virus has killed millions of crickets raised to feed pet reptiles and those kept in zoos.

The cricket paralysis virus has disrupted supplies to pet shops across North America as a handful of operators have seen millions of their insects killed.

Some operations have gone bankrupt and others have closed indefinitely until they can rid their facilities of the virus.
Cricket farms started in the 1940s as a source of fish bait, but the bulk of sales now are to pet supply companies, reptile owners and zoos, although people also eat some.

Most U.S. farms are in the South, but suppliers from Pennsylvania to California also raise crickets.

The virus had swept through European cricket farms in 2002. It was first noticed in 2009 in the U.S. and Canada.

The virus marks the latest in a recent series of mass animal deaths.
Blackbirds fell out of the sky on New Year's Eve in Arkansas. In the days that followed, 2 million fish died in the Chesapeake Bay, 150 tons of red tilapia in Vietnam, 40,000 crabs in Britain and other places across the world.

However, biologists say these mass die-offs happen all the time and usually are unrelated.

Federal records show they happen on average every other day somewhere in North America.

In the past eight months, the U.S. Geological Survey's National Wildlife Health Center has logged 95 mass wildlife die-offs in North America and that's probably a dramatic undercount, officials say.

The list includes:

900 some turkey vultures that seemed to drown and starve in the Florida Keys.

4,300 ducks killed by parasites in Minnesota.

1,500 salamanders done in by a virus in Idaho.

2,000 bats that died of rabies in Texas.

And the still mysterious death of 2,750 sea birds in California.

Officials blamed the deaths of 5,000 red-winged blackbirds in Beebe, Ark., on New Year's Eve fireworks.

Experts say the loud cracks and booms likely sent the birds into such a tizzy that they crashed into homes, cars and each other before plummeting to their deaths.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:26 PM

I hadn't read "prior to" - ah bon, as we say.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM

Gaseous poisoning does not produce evidence of "blunt force trauma prior to ground impact" that was reported in all of the autopsy reports on the birds in these recent kills.

Bird-to-bird collisions, or collisions with objects at "flying speed," are consistent with the reports, and are likely to be easily distinguished from ground impact injuries. Body densities (ballistic coefficients) for falling dead/disabled birds predict generally low ground impact speeds inconsistent with the initial injuries that the reports identified as the causes of the deaths, although it's possible that some crippled birds hit the ground alive and were "finished" by the ground impact or by "bleeding out" on the ground.

There have been several reports of "methane bubbles" rising from lakes or bogs, and they have killed large numbers of people and animals in isolated incidents; but there is no evidence that any phenomenon of that kind was involved in the recent reports and there are no likely sources in the multiple and varied places where the bird kills have been reported.

Explosion or spontaneous burning of the batteries in the laptops (or modern GPS-capable cell phones) the birds were using for navigation could present an explanation, since the lithium oxide released when lthium batteries self-destruct can induce "psychotic behavior" in those exposed, and the birds might have been rendered subject to "poor judgement" relative to the avoidance of other birds in the flock. So far as I know, there's no valid information on the relative susceptibility of birds vs airline pilots to these effects.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:13 PM

sorry I should have done a practice blue clicky first. Fingers crossed

hhttp://www.grist.org/article/food-2010-12-10-leaked-documents-show-epa-allowed-bee-toxic-pesticide-


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:07 PM

People just don't know what to believe , they don't trust what governments tell them so they come up with conspiracy theories to explain phenomena when they don't have enough scientific knowledge themselves to explain things . Some unscrupulous people with websites to promote exploit this and deliberately make things up .

But so long as corporate lobbyists have undue influence over government policies there are are going to be conspiracy theories .

According to this article from the environmental magazine Grist , Wikileaks published an internal EPA memo last Wednesday that indicates the US government's own environmental protection agency had allowed the chemical giant Bayer to sell a crop spray chemical ,clothianidin , to American farmers that has been banned in many European countries , and which the EPA's own scientists thought could lead to bee colony collapse.

"..... the very agency charged with protecting the environment is ignoring the warnings of its own scientists about clothianidin, a pesticide from which Bayer racked up €183 million (about $262 million) in sales in 2009."


http://www.grist.org/article/food-2010-12-10-leaked-documents-show-epa-allowed-bee-toxic-pesticide-

The article seems to be well researched, but I must say that I don't know very much about bee keeping . Somebody could come along tomorrow and show that the article is a huge hoax . As I say people just don't know what to believe .


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:36 PM

So, what about the thought that the birds weren't dead until they hit the ground? If the fish were knocked out they may have suffocated through not swimming when they ought to have swum... 150 miles isn't far for a gaseous cloud to waft; the question is, what came up from the sludge?

I read about a mass death in Europe somewhere where a lake discharged a large bubble of something heavier than air, so it flowed down the mountainside and killed everything in a valley village... I think in 1995? 2005? Maybe this one was lighter than air?


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:43 AM

John,

I have made no assumptions, and I have suggested no hypothesis.


Your convoluted hypothesis in your answer to my last post is on the other hand full of necessary assumptions without which it simply can't function.

This after your attempt to guide me by the hand was shown to be an unreliable way across the garden.


But your loyalty is certanly to be commended.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:31 PM

Mrrzy: You mean you don't know? Why it's George Bush's doing, isn't it?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 12:32 PM

I also hear the birds died of internal injuries, so they are looking for an airborne cause of internal injuries, but isn't it more likely that something gaseous knocked them out and they died in the fall, or rather, in the landing?


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM

Goldfish and other carp are frequently mistreated by amateur home aquaium keepers since most of the "pretty" freshwater fish are tropical and need fairly warm water while all of the carps (goldfish & koi, etc) require significantly colder water to do well.

The "tropicals" that need warmer water are mostly highly susceptible to a parasite called "ich," (ichtyophtherius or something like that) if subjected to sudden drops in temperature, and it's difficult to avoid or to eradicate without raising temps to something around 75F (24C) or even a little higher; although the increase in water temperature is, alone without additional medications, a more reliable cure than most of the medicines. (The larval stage of the parasite reportedly can't survive temps above 75 or 80F, so they die off fairly rapidly at high enough temps.)

Water at that temperature though is extremely stressful to the carp family fish, and since in large tanks goldfish can get rather large, when the goldfish dies its rapid decay depresses the oxygen content enough to kill everything else if its not removed promptly.

It's not certain whether higher water temps result in enough change in oxygenation of the water to stress the goldfish, or if the higher temp simply speeds up their metabolism beyond what their gill capacity can accomodate.

The native carp in waters in my area appear to do well enough in lakes where the mean water temperatures occasonally get to a little above 60F, but do best when they have access to flowing water (likely a little cooler?) or where our typical wind does significant water surface turning. They don't seem to have any problem with winter temperatures, but usually have at least some open water here even in the coldest times, in the areas where they're most common.

Although they do forage on the bottom, ours are primarily vegetarian (with soft bodied water critters for dessert?) and I don't believe they often go below where there's enough sunlight penetration for at least algae to grow.

Although I've observed the local drum varieties caught in deeper channels than is common for most other local fish, they're rare enough (or are caught rarely enough) that I don't really know that much about their habits or habitats. The fact that they're in places where the water is deeper doesn't necessarily mean that they were deep in that water, and people who catch them here usually just toss them back in without (printable) comment - unless they're short on bait.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM

Thanks John. Carp are close relatives to goldfish. Unfortunately, people often keep these fish in poor oxygen conditions. That's when you often see them on the surface, not eating but obtaining oxygen to live, cause it isn't in the water. That demonstrates your point about carp. Carp can live in some fairly poor environments, unlike many fish.

I don't know much about drumfish. Most of the bottom feeders I know are marine (worked with oceanograpers, and marine fish scientists for over 30 years). Thanks for the interesting information.

As an aside, from past info: What is interesting about many lakes is they are often oxygen poor on the bottom, because, unlike rivers, there is fewer sources of water running in to bring in fresh oxygen. Decaying organisms on the bottom deplete what little is available, especially when the water is warm and less able to maintain oxygen concentrations. Because of winter conditions, (such as winds) there is often a turn over of oxygen richer surface waters to the bottom, and vice versa. This stimulates fish activity on the bottom and because of the nutrients, phytoplankton growth on the surface, which benefits growth and maintainance of aquatic life.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:55 AM

One interesting aspect of the most notoriously reported fish kill is that all the fish were bottom feeders.

All common fish have a "swim bladder" that retains a pocket of air that's used for "balance" and "bouyancy control." Most fish, however, use that bladder only for those purposes.

Many bottom feeding fish have an additional "air bladder" or have "overdeveloped" swim bladders adapted to supplying oxygen to the circulatory system in addition to the balance and bouyancy functions.

Cat fish generally have the most obvious "air bladders," and are able to surface and suck air to fill the bladder, after which they can spend prolonged periods in oxygen deprived water, where there is insufficient concentration of oxygen for extraction by the gills. (Their behavior in this respect is somewhat like porpoises?)

Many other bottom dwelling fresh water fish have similar but less developed "scuba" capabilities, carrying "breathing air" of a sort to support some time in oxygen poor water while feeding.

Fish generally are cold blooded, so they assume the temperature of the surrounding water. For the most part they can sense water temperature and move to an appropriate area where water temperature and oxygen content are sufficient. If the entire body of water is cooled, however, it's common for fish - especially bottom fish - to become quite "lethargic," and response to slow cooling may be almost entirely missing.

With an inability to sense gradual changes in water temperature, a fish resting in cold water with low oxygen availabiity may not sense the need to move before the oxygen available from swim and/or air bladders is depleted sufficiently to deprive the fish of the ability to rise to the surface (loss of swim bladder bouyancy), or to swim far enough to find a more oxygen rich area (CO2 accumulation in the air bladder). Since cooling the water reduces its ability to contain oxygen, while at the same time making some species of fish progressively less likely to move about, the result can be -

Dead fish.

Cat fish, with their fairly well developed ability to suck air at the surface, are seldom found in oxygen deprivation kills. They also tend to "loiter" much nearer the surface than some other bottom fish - and in much shallower water than many self-proclaimed expert (cat)fishermen will believe. On the other hand I have seen catfish killed on a stringer that kept them in a poorly oxygenated area in waters where they were quite vigorous when free to move about. (A really sad way to lose your supper.)

The common carp that are reasonably abundant in my area also tend to stay quite close to the surface or in fairly shallow water, and are less commonly found among the dead from this effect. The carp have a tendency to enjoy browsing on "green stuff" near the surface as well, and so far as I've observed seldom venture into deeper parts of the waters they live in, unless it's for short excursions while feeding.

True "bottom feeders" like the drum reported in the most recent kills probably explore bottoms at more variable and deeper depths, making them more susceptible to being caught in oxygen deprived water; but they weren't common enough in my area when I was fishing regularly for me to have observed their habits in as much detail as for the more common (and more edible) kinds of fish.

With information available from the news reports, this is only a "plausibility" argument, and not necessarily something to be taken as an explanation for the specific events reported in the news.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM

A conservation officer told me that some fish, such as gaspereau (Alewives) migrate in huge numbers. Because of various stresses, it's not abnormal to see dead ones. Because there are so many of them, they document but do not investigate many of these deaths, unless citizens alert them or the media get involved. It is considered a 'road kill' type of kill off and they commonly label the deaths as tramua. However, if more prized fish, like salmon, of fish that exist in small numbers die, they most always send them to a labratory. In most cases the cause of the death is never found (samples are frequently of low quality).

He indicated there are a number of lab analysis that can be carried out. Some, especially tests for toxins, can be quite expensive. So, the expensive tests are done infrequently...more often is a polluter is known and suspected as the cause, and they can get a good court case.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:51 PM

"Maybe they were English birds that couln't read the signs? "

Air traffic control in Quebec is bilingual and so are the pigeons.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:40 PM

Anyway, there's plenty for a pie. Look on the bright side?


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM

Let's not mix up the relative terms.

The "mechanism of death", which in this case has been clearly indicated by credible labratory tests as "blunt force trauma". This is what made the birds lives no longer possible.

However, "the manner of death", the way in which the birds died, (aka the cause of deaths) is convincing, but less certain. This cause seems to have been determined as the "most likely" cause. I suspect this conclusion was made by taking the known behavour of the birds during the night period and other known events occuring in the area at the time. This determination seems to be the "most likely" cause of the mass deaths, since no other "know events", likely to impact the deaths, were observed during the time period.

While the lab tests have a high degree of certainity, the manner of death has a lower certainity level, as confounding circumstances remain. However, alien involvement, military testing, the occult or prophesy are very very low on the "liklihood scale".

While the common deaths of other birds and other animals (from a number of non related reasons) are interesting and something to consider, there has been no good reason put forward as to why they should be a significant factor in determining the manner of death..


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 05:33 PM

Fish kills are quite common as well. There are many toxins in the ground which can be released in amounts that can cause a fish kill and then be washed out or dispersed. For example, here in New Brunswick, Canada it could be oil or natural gas expelled from below with a heavy rain. Shit happens.

Birds... an electrical storm can damage the ears of birds and the same could happen with fireworks. They would not necessarily die immediately but may die over several days or weeks. If ya wanna kill a partridge with a high powered rifle (which is illegal here) ya don't shoot it in the head, ya shoot it NEAR the head.

John... right on... it's all about the advertising dollar... whatever sells copies. Like the big 16" of snow blizzard we were suppose to have this weekend which was forecast 6 days ago. I was just out in it for a 2 km walk with shoes on and I actually had to shake off some flakes from my parka before I came back in the house. It's all about selling ad space.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 05:12 PM

John,
IN what way do you find the fish are more interesting?


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:56 PM

John - it was a different flock in a different state.

You're assuming that fireworks are used for celebrations in only one place?

You're assuming that some kid didn't have a few left over fireworks that "needed to be used up" a few days after the celebration?

You're assuming that birds disoriented by loss of a large percentage of their flock couldn't still remain largely "unorganized" under even lesser subsequent stress?

You're convinced that something you only heard about once but that many others know is common behaviour must be so unusual that it could only occur in a single flock of maniacal psychopathic perverted (and probably religious - the best bet) birds?

You're just determined to find a superstitious answer when losses of the kinds reported are commonly and fairly frequently observed all the way from Arkasas to Sweden (per recent reports) and are expected, if not frequent, behavior for these kinds of birds?

You just like to quibble?

Read it again: What happened is COMMON BEHAVIOR in birds of the several kinds reported recently. It is in no way surprising that news media intent on cashing in on an artificially created hysteria can find sufficient other similar events to kick up the reader/listener/viewer numbers and keep the ignorant rabble reading the ads.

I think the fish are actually more interesting.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:31 PM

Maybe they were English birds that couln't read the signs?


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM

Another recent incident closer to where I live: Dead birds litter Quebec farm


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:04 PM

The term "trauma" is a very broad and general category. This does not give specific information on the caused an animal death.

There have been cases where conservation officers list such a diagonsis when they cannot, or do not wish to, determine (or go into details) to find the cause of mortalities. This can be for a number of reasons, such as condition of the samples, or that the incident is not considered significant, (type of species and impact on the population).

Not all wildlife deaths involve the diagnosis of samples at a labratory. It may even be supportable to say that only in a few cases are labratories consulted (depending on the area, and service,of course).In these cases, local conservation officers make the determiniation. The type of testing of those that are sent to labs also varies, for a number of reasons.

If a professional, not connected to, or involved with the details of an investigation, says under media questioning that it is possible that noise from fireworks could result in bird deaths,what does that really tell us? Just that it is possible, under a specific set of circumstances, not that it was likely or even a reasonable consideration in this scenario.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:02 PM

Dr David "Bird" ... hhaha!

And yes I know he's real - but I do wonder was this information discovered at 4am? ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM

"(Gotta hold some kids' hand to walk 'em across the front yard?)"


John - it was a different flock in a different state.


Looks like the kids have to hold the old folks hands to stop them tripping over themselves ...


Bobad - thanks - interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 03:49 PM

Okay... it was me. I was tryin out my old Baikal over and under 28" vent rib with full and modified to see if it was still the best shotgun ever made. I had some CIL special long range Dynawads that were showing signs of potential stress on the high brass so I figured I'd better use em up. I didn't think they would go THAT far and take days... them Ruskies KNOW how to make a shotgun and them Canucks (used to) KNOW how to make a shell.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: acegardener
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 03:35 PM

A gas cloud blowing through kept up by warm air, then settling down over the cold water. Look for local industries. But it could have been a terrorist thing that went wrong, but they ain't going to tell you that are they.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM

Bobert - That is way too logical for the Mudpit ...

Which is why I didn't explain the fish in that post.

I was reluctant to take all the toys away when people were havin' such fun.

Lox - But what about the birds that died the next day? - when there were no fireworks?

RTFM: "A flock disrupted in the ways expected may continue to exhibit "unusual" (sometimes bizarre) flocking for a significant time, until the flock reorganizes itself, so repeated - probably smaller - events likely will occur, even if the birds fly only under conditions when it is normal for them to do so."

(Gotta hold some kids' hand to walk 'em across the front yard?)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:08 PM

"There are no mentions of firework related deaths."

I believe that the type of injuries sustained by these birds would place the cause of death in the category of trauma - which is one of the diagnoses in the tables. A quick scan of previous quarterly reports (which are available back to 1995) showed a kill of 500 birds due to trauma as well as many smaller ones - so who knows?

I heard an interview this afternoon, on the Montreal CBC radio station, with Dr. David Bird, Professor of Wildlife Biology and Director of the Avian Science and Conservation Centre of McGill University, in which he stated that the fireworks scenario was entirely possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:07 PM

All this is is part of the corporatists to keep everyone scared and thus...

...controlled...

Ya' see... They just get all their ClearChannel stations to all play Bobby Goldsboro's "Honey" at the very same time and it sends the flocks a'runnin and then you have one flock runnin' south to get away from "Honey" and another flock runnin' north fir the same reason and and these two flocks has them wings in overdrive tryin' to get away from "Honey" when they had a major head-on collision with their couzins...

And it worked 'cause here everyone is hidin' under their beds and Boss Hog is sittin' 'round with his buddies, smokin' big Cuban cigars and laughin' at his latest chapter of "Let's Scare the Slaves"...

Oh well???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:22 PM

Sudden cold snaps in area's that don't usually get cold weather can cause a lot of deaths. I think it was in the 50's that the Bluebird population were greatly effected by sudden climate change. It's only in the last 15 years that we (in Quebec)have seen the bluebirds coming back. Not saying this is what happened and I don't think it was the cause.
ad.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:21 PM

Of course birds die off all the time, as do fish. I suspect people do report them if they see it. And the cause of all incidents are throughly investigated, as we see from reports.

What is different about this one is a very sudden die off, in large numbers, in mass, of what seems to be otherwise healthy birds. That is quite abnormal, from my observations.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:52 PM

Excellent Bobad!

The causes of death and the numbers of dead make interesting reading.

Also, the frequence of events as large as the one recently in the news makes relevant reading.

In the past, Infections have been the biggest killers.

There are a few unknowns.

There are no mentions of firework related deaths.


A more extensive page going back over a few years would be useful - perhaps eveen detailing December 31sts ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM

"Similar "mass deaths" are actually fairly common, but are reported as newsworthy only when there's little else to report."

Where?


HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:22 PM

I suppose if a fireworks went off in the lake it would. Ever toss an M-80 into a creek. I have as a kid (lots of stuff come floating up)

but I am puzzled on that, except for maybe a lightning strike in the lake, that does it also


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:20 PM

Did the fish bump into each other also ... I think your bird theory is a good one but it doesn't explain the fish kill


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:19 PM

Ok John,

But what about the birds that died the next day? - when there were no fireworks?

And why has this never been reported before?

"Similar "mass deaths" are actually fairly common, but are reported as newsworthy only when there's little else to report."

Where?

I'll be satisfied when you show me how you know this.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:06 PM

Come on, John... That is way too logical for the Mudpit... Guess again... *grin*...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM

Blackbirds rest in large flocks.

Blackbirds do not normally fly at night.

It was new year's eve when many people celebrate with fireworks.

A large display of fireworks quite probably frightened the birds off their roosts.

There were large numbers of "aerial fireworks" confirmed in some of the areas where bird deaths were reported.

There were reliable reports of at least some of the flocks flying at unusual altitudes and following erratic paths while attempting to avoid the fireworks.

Blackbirds of this kind are nearly blind in the dark.

I have seen "bird collisions" in flocks of several kinds of flocking (I think I spelled that right) birds, resulting in two or more birds "falling out of the sky." These do happen even under "normal conditions." In a mass disoriented flight many more collisions are quite reasonably to be expected. Flying in a flock, if the birds on the "near side" of a disturbance turn away from it, they inevitably turn into the path of the other birds.

Minimal observation of how flocks turn will suggest that even a few "disoriented" individuals can be extremely destructive to the "flock structure." (If you don't have large flocks of birds, you can watch schools of fish for the same behavior.)

A collision between two birds flying at 30 or 40 mph can easily incapacitate, and possibly kill, both birds. Collision of a flying bird with a falling one would have similar consequences.

If the initial collision is insufficient to kill, the ground impact likely would, but would leave less physiological evidence of the secondary impact with the ground than would be evident from the bird/bird collision.

Similar "mass deaths" are actually fairly common, but are reported as newsworthy only when there's little else to report.

The "collision" explanation is quite reasonable and is supported by knowledge of behavior in this kind of birds and by the unusual and widespread occurrence of "fireworks" in the celebrations around the time of the incidents.

A flock disrupted in the ways expected may continue to exhibit "unusual" (sometimes bizarre) flocking for a significant time, until the flock reorganizes itself, so repeated - probably smaller - events likely will occur, even if the birds fly only under conditions when it is normal for them to do so. In normal times the smaller events would be ignored by the media, but since one big one was hyped, there will have to be reports on all subsequent ones until the "hysteria factor" loses its ability to "sell the news."

John


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM

The fish killed were drumfish. Loud noises would not bother them.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM

To be clearer:

There was early cause cited, about a possible cold weather (atmospheric) cause of the bird death. This seems to have been abandoned, in favour of the fireworks cause.

Basically, convenient theories put foprward by gov't folks rule out the birds natural survival skill's, and that this is not normal behaviour for birds of this type. There have been plenty of fireworks and gun fire in the past with no similar mass deaths. That's my main points. The cause does not make sense to me, no more than the "alien" cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:02 PM

I don't think i understand your point ed, but it reminded me to point out that birds know when storms are coming and they don't put themselves at risk - much less collectively - in two states in two days - having never been known to do it before.

I thought the "quick freeze" was specific to the fish ...


... I dunno ...


... where's my copy of nostradamus ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:57 PM

Kinda sounds like a convenient "perfect storm" to describe a "en masse" black bird death?

First they must quickly leave their roosts (I understand they roost together overnight). Then they get confused and either all fly, at the same time, in the same direction and run into each other, or alternatively downwardly into the ground. It leaves out any room for agility, common bird sense, or the will for self protection, which they must have, to some degree.

The "quick freeze" scenario is just too odd to discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:49 PM

"A large flock of birds hit by this would not fare well!"

Fair point - so presumably we will find evidence linking frequent mass bird deaths with thunder storms?

Or is this the first?

Why hasn't it happened before?

And how come two in two days?


The circumstances are extraordinary folks, and repeated twice in quick succession.


It ain't fireworks or thunder but something out of the ordinary.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:39 PM

I think Jesse was in team Echo 3, those guys have a motto
"embrace the hate"


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:30 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:19 PM

Actually, Ed, seals are. Beatles, on the other hand, should be struck by lightning.


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM

Sorry, Olddude,

Seals are not on Canada's favourite's list.
:)


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:08 PM

Hey no bad talking about Jesse , He was a Seal

rock on froggy


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Subject: RE: BS: What's killing thou's of birds&fish- Arkansas?
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

Will someone call in Jesse Vantura? Or, Ace Ventura, if Jesse is too busy.


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