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BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?

GUEST,KP 20 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM
Stringsinger 14 Apr 10 - 02:40 PM
Don Firth 14 Apr 10 - 02:10 PM
catspaw49 14 Apr 10 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Apr 10 - 01:35 AM
mousethief 13 Apr 10 - 10:58 PM
Don Firth 13 Apr 10 - 10:45 PM
mousethief 13 Apr 10 - 10:32 PM
Art Thieme 13 Apr 10 - 08:03 PM
Don Firth 13 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM
catspaw49 13 Apr 10 - 11:47 AM
Don Firth 12 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Apr 10 - 08:43 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 12 Apr 10 - 08:00 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Apr 10 - 12:14 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Apr 10 - 11:52 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Apr 10 - 11:47 PM
Don Firth 11 Apr 10 - 08:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Apr 10 - 08:38 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Apr 10 - 08:16 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 10 - 05:29 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Apr 10 - 05:25 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 10 - 05:13 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Apr 10 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Apr 10 - 01:55 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Apr 10 - 01:54 AM
mousethief 10 Apr 10 - 11:31 PM
catspaw49 10 Apr 10 - 10:21 PM
mousethief 10 Apr 10 - 10:02 PM
Stringsinger 10 Apr 10 - 08:50 PM
Stringsinger 10 Apr 10 - 08:47 PM
catspaw49 10 Apr 10 - 10:07 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 10 - 09:48 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 10 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Apr 10 - 04:45 AM
Don Firth 09 Apr 10 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Apr 10 - 09:50 PM
Don Firth 09 Apr 10 - 06:58 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 10 - 05:26 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Apr 10 - 05:09 PM
Don Firth 09 Apr 10 - 02:57 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Apr 10 - 11:24 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Apr 10 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Apr 10 - 01:37 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Apr 10 - 01:11 AM
Don Firth 08 Apr 10 - 10:47 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Apr 10 - 08:53 PM
Stringsinger 08 Apr 10 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Apr 10 - 02:00 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM

List of Smothers Brothers Episodes
SMOTHERS BROTHERS COMEDY HOUR EPISODE SCHEDULE

According to this, Seeger appeared twice on the show, would that be right?
KP


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:40 PM

Conrad says, "Just because behavior is foreign to your mindset does not mean it is essentially anything its just behavior. Ok if you dont like it then dont do it but if others wish to play a game that you disapprove of and they are free to leave then it should not matter."

Inhumanity does matter. This interpretation of "objectivity" is callous. This is true particularly if others "play a game" that harms other people which happens all the time.

As for audience reaction which is what I assume this statement is about, then certainly
anyone is free to leave or respond. What matters however is the nature of "the game"
and its impact on society.

Genocide is "essentially its just behavior". It's not "just" behavior in any sense of the meaning. There is a complete lack of social responsibility and consideration in this point-of-view.

Scientifically speaking, what constitutes a baby is not what anti-choice people say it is.
"Baby killing" is a loaded propaganda term and flies in the face of critical scientific objectivity.

There are opinions that are fact-based and education-based and there are those based ignorance and suppositions that can't be supported by evidence. Not every opinion has merit. Some are deluded.

Libraries should not be shut down just because they contain information with which some may disagree. But not every book read does not require agreement. Some books contain fatuous information. Some libraries in this country are invaded by those who would censor certain books because it is felt that they are not "acceptable". Mark Twain and Studs Terkel come to mind.

The idea that "Art" is somehow immune from the passion of ideology or politics is a form of censorship. Let's not rock the boat. Folk songs don't fit this description. Many are intensely political and to deny this is to show ignorance of this form of expression.
There are plenty of examples of this with which most Mudcatters are familiar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:10 PM

GoofuS, I was referring to infants and children, not unborn fetuses--as was the post from which I was quoting (you really have to learn to read everything before you start popping off). This thread is not about abortions. If you want to discuss that, start another thread.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:44 AM

Tell ya' MT, if all those birds are showing up then I think Conrad needs to take the responsibility for cleaning up all that birdpisshhit. I mean that is a whole shitload of birds,so to speak, and I just have a Cockatiel but if I'm figuring right based on Cockatiel pisshit, we could be up to our asses in birdie style pisshit in no time. Since Conrad doesn't bathe regularly he might not notice.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:35 AM

Donny: "Conrad, when it comes to matters of "baby killing" or declaring wars of conquest or the industrialize slaughter of "undesirable" people, yes, that kind of behavior is foreign to my mindset. And, yes, you are right. It IS "behavior. But I would hardly characterize it as "just behavior" (using "just" in whatever sense of the word you want)."

Baby killing??? ....undesirable people??? Do that mean you oppose abortion????

This should be an interesting SPIN!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:58 PM

But should the partridge be allowed to hog the tree all to herself? Isn't incumbent upon the partridge to invite some cuckoos, mynabirds, dodos and a peregrine falcon, even though she disagrees with their politics and one of them wants to eat her, lest she be guilty of politicizing the tree?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:45 PM

. . . and a partridge in a pear tree?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:32 PM

Spaw, I hope you allow trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Vegemite to share the stage with the trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Marmite. Otherwise you would clearly be unfairly discriminating against the trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Vegemite. By allowing the trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Marmite to hog the stage all to themselves, you relegate the trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Vegemite to second-class status.

And I know you don't want that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:03 PM

Around 1959 I recall vividly that Pete was a guest on a TV show hosted by Hugh Hefner. The weekly show in Chicago was called "Playboy's Penthouse" and it featured lovely ladies and guys sitting around a nice apartment and holding various alcololic beverages while Pete informed them with his music. I taped some of it. Still have it.

Not exactly holding hands witth the enemy, but...

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM

Rather than using up band-width to post this in two places, see my post over HERE.

Wait for a few seconds for it to load.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, Conrad, the term for Germany's National Socialist Party back in the 1930s and 40s is spelled "N A Z I." No "T." In this context, the "Z" is pronounced like "TZ." So, "Nazi" is the correct spelling.

What did you say you got your college degree in? Obviously not English composition. Perhaps in "creative writing?" Very creative, including creative spelling, grammar, and punctuation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:47 AM

Conrad has won me over. I am now out fighting for those he says deserve accessibility.

Conrad, if you read the "Mudcat Update" thread you will see that I am forceful in saying we need accessibility for trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Marmite.

I hope the rest of you can see the sense in this as well.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM

It is obvious that Conrad has never been to a Pete Seeger concert. It is also becoming increasingly clear that Conrad has no understanding whatsoever of ethics and morality.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:43 AM

Sorry Conrad, you are the one who is "not getting it". Your opinion ignores the actual truth.

Plain and simple - it is not the burden of any venue or artist to insure diverse opinions are aired.   Each venue or artist is responsible for sharing their own vision - and the audience listens to what it wants to hear.

Pete Seeger has no reason to avoid political branding. The opportunity exists for any artist to share their politics - the fact that there is not a strong "right wing" folk movement is a reflection of the community that created it. THAT is what cultural diversity creates. Water seeks it's own level, so does opinion. As long as there are no dams built to prevent water from freely flowing, nature takes it's course. It really seems that you are trying to alter nature.

You are placing demands now on artists, venues and even the audience. Having a "right" to express an opinion exists. Your attempt at censoring an artist is wrong. You won't admit it, but what you are doing IS advocating censorship.

I know you will continue to spin off your mantra and avoid answering questions - but I will attempt once more.

NAME ONE ARTIST OR VENUE THAT PRACTICES THE DIVERSITY YOU PREACH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:00 AM

Ron you are not getting it. Political diversity means people you don't agree with who have just as much a right to express themselves in folk music venues as anyone else. Yes pete protested but he did not bring in folk singers from the other side of the equation as far as I know as he did with other cultures that people might also have not been comfortable with.

Yes he invited cultural diversity even though it was quite possible that some of the politicos of the cultures he brought in may have exployted people, women etc and were absolute rulers.

He did not bring in the same sort of political diversity choosing to keep it lefty liberal as far as I know.

Yes he sang a song banned by the Natzis but did he sing a Natzi song or allow or invite someone to do so.

Pete is often given credit for uniting people but that did not extend I believe to people of different ideological backgrounds and values.

IMHO someone so powerful in folk music missed a great chance to avoid the political branding that folk music received.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:14 AM

"what evidence do you have that seeger went out and brought to his concerts a wide range of political diversity- who did he invite>? Did he ever turn anyone away? ":

There you go again - twisting your own statements when you cannot answer the challenge.

You were originally speaking about cultural diversity, then you change the game to include a word "political" diversity.

Don't you get it? A protest song protests an existing condition - the very fact that you have a protest song is PROOF that diversity exists.

"In an open cultural non binding forum everything has to be on the table."
It already is. That is the point of protest.

Pete invites CULTURAL diversity in all his music. His travels around the world, the films he produced, all part of an agenda to show the diversity of cultures and lifestyles - and thought.

Pete often sings a song called "Die Gedanken Sind Frei" - thoughts are free.   The song was banned by the Nazi's.   So much for political diversity from the other side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:52 PM

Don- Morality and ethics vary from place to place and time period to time period. There has been more change back and forth on these through time than anything else.

You were brought up with them so they loom large in your cosmos your culture.

When others differ with you it is more important to talk with them and listen to their songs than it is to drive them away or call them evil.
They could do the same to you.

If you recognize that songs and poetry are simply a language of expression and not actions in and of themselves you will see that there is reality only in deeds not in poetry about deeds. In an open cultural non binding forum everything has to be on the table.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:47 PM

What evidence do you have that seeger went out and brought to his concerts a wide range of political diversity- who did he invite>? Did he ever turn anyone away? We dont know but my theory here is that he kept political diversity out preaching only one view. This does not parallel his championing of exotic cultures which may actually have had some political beliefs and practices that might not have been approved of had they been better known.

Thats not spin.

If major powers in the folk world blocked political diversity they should be given credit for it and the branding of folk genres that resulted.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:40 PM

"Just because behavior is foreign to your mindset does not mean it is essentially anything its just behavior. Ok if you dont like it then dont do it but if others wish to play a game that you disapprove of and they are free to leave then it should not matter."

And "compromise?" There are certain things that one simply cannot compromise with. To do so is to abdicate any pretense at ethics or morality.

Conrad, when it comes to matters of "baby killing" or declaring wars of conquest or the industrialize slaughter of "undesirable" people, yes, that kind of behavior is foreign to my mindset. And, yes, you are right. It IS "behavior. But I would hardly characterize it as "just behavior" (using "just" in whatever sense of the word you want).

Yes, it does matter. And yes, I disapprove of it. AND I disapprove of any person who can contemplate such things and dismiss either them, or the advocating of them, in any form (speech, writing, song, whatever) as something that "should not matter" as guilty of contributing to these things whenever and wherever they might happen.

It's called "moral responsibility." And Dante, in his Inferno, says that the lowest level of Hell is reserved for those who, when confronted with a moral issue of this nature, simply choose to "look the other way" or "do not want to get involved."

I hope you can enjoy it down there, because that seems to be the moral choice you have made.

After all, choosing not to choose IS a choice. Whether you like it or not.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:38 PM

"Work to bring in as much diversity that you can and make everyone singing whatever they bring welcome. "

That is exactly what Pete Seeger and others have been doing. You seem to equate "diversity" with acceptance of criminal behavior and anti-social agendas that promote denial of rights as well as existence.

Your idea of what constitutes "culture" is warped and your lame spin-doctoring isn't working. No one is buying your bullshit. When will you realize that you can keep twisting words?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:16 PM

Sounds like you have a club
They have a club

If they want to change how music is done they have a point of view.

You have to acknowledge that they have the right to a position different from your own and everyone should be heard out.

If you think your position has merit well then defend it and it will prevail.

You dont make it easier by simply telling the other side to either go away or shut up.

This will not decide the argument the general consensus of the population will do that and if the population sees you as wishing to exclude other side from the debate it will be more difficult for you as you will then be exhibiting the characteristics of your opponent.

Examine also the point being made.

There are always ways to improve on the status quo and perhaps some changes can be managed that would be fair and helpful however, simply stating that your position is the only rational one and is inherently perfect will not help anything.

The art of compromise is important but the art of free dialog is necessary first and if you simply won't talk the general population may just go with the other side.

This thread concerns the domination by the media and performance by one dimension of the political argument. When you exclude an opponent or point of view as unworthy you are doing just the sort of co-opting of the received view that is being argued against here.

If you demonize your opponent the outcomes are limited- one side will be tossed out of the ring by the people. With more discussion more outcomes would be possible perhaps an adjustment that will accommodate both sides.

As with people the evolution of musical traditions is far from perfect or efficient. Course corrections are always possible that can improve things in the future. No one course is necessarily correct or perfect. There is no organic evolution according to some form of natural law. It is all done by people pushing here and pulling there.

It does not have to be one way or the other. If a group concludes that it has gone a bit too far in one direction or another they have a right to put that to the people.

Heritage is as important as innovation. Heritage once was innovation. It is a treasure and imho we should do what we can to carry as much of it through time as is practical. Perhaps simply adjusting emphasis is needed- sort of an affirmative action program for heritage music if the case can be made that it is being abused by lack of venues and training or airplay. But if you simply tell the other side that they are out of order none of whatever possible accommodation and adjustment will occur. Just a few ideas this is not the thread for that discussion except that adjustment should be tried diversity of opinion should be encouraged and not attacked.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:29 PM

You can't debate with a club. These people aren't interested in debate, they're interested in taking over. Wake up. "Peace in our time" isn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:25 PM

Like them or not (I dont) you have to recognize that they are a choice or you will go no where.

They are a party in the discussion.

That is not debatable- you cant tell them to go away any more than they can tell you to go away.

Therefore by recognizing their right to have a point of view, and by inviting them in rather than excluding them you can work on the debate and if you do your work you will have no fear of them but if you demonize them there is no talking no negotiation and therefore no easy resolution.

So bring them in, have a battle of the bands and win the debate.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:13 PM

Conrad: The feeling that the west has a monopoly on morality and right and wrong is simply silly.

Relativizing morality doesn't make the BNP okay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM

Stringsinger wreote- It's necessary to be
critical of these cultures when they employ inhumane behavior.

Immoral inhumane all the same.

I think I already mentioned baby killing, then there is the death penalty,

Just because behavior is foreign to your mindset does not mean it is essentially anything its just behavior. Ok if you dont like it then dont do it but if others wish to play a game that you disapprove of and they are free to leave then it should not matter.

Folk venues might consider operating like libraries- most libraries do not censor anything. They simply work with the way they present it in creative ways- adult sections, behind the counter sections, but they dont censor Ideas as you wish your stages and media outlets to censor them.

Bumper sticker for you -

FEAR No ART

The feeling that the west has a monopoly on morality and right and wrong is simply silly.

Work to bring in as much diversity that you can and make everyone singing whatever they bring welcome.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 01:58 AM

It wouldn't work...trying again.......

..and you think about sides????


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 01:55 AM

a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYI8HRdO5Zg&feature=related">and you thought about sides????


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 01:54 AM

a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYI8HRdO5Zg&feature=related">and you thought about sides????


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 11:31 PM

Conrad is waging war against reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:21 PM

And Conrad is waging war against the environment..................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:02 PM

The rich are waging war against the poor and middle class by manipulating business practice, government policy (especially taxation), and fiscal policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 08:50 PM

There are distinct flaws in various cultures throughout the world. , I am
glad that there are not Islamic beheadings or honor killings, Catholic auto-da-fes, Israeli or Serbian genocidal occupations, dictatorial movements,Protestant burning witches or promoting such, cannibalism or other gross human violations that we have to tolerate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 08:47 PM

Political views are not monolithic. It's rare to find two Socialist scholars who agree on everything..

There is no "party line" now.

Songs are a reflection of people who sing them. They don't require censorship in order
to please everyone.

I wonder if the Right/Left thing has run out of steam? The only people who seem to be really worried about partisanship are those who are unsure of their own political values.

Otherwise, why bother?

This argument has no analogy in the Separation of Church and State because
those who sing songs for political purposes know that government policies will not be controlled by songs. Religion, maybe, but not songs.

Since there are so many political reasons to sing songs, there is no reason to compromise by an attempt to be "even-handed". Fox News doesn't present songs because that is a sort of "party line" which belie the artistic components of a song. Obviously, there is no Fair and Balanced there but a use of the term to exploit and reframe.

There are different approaches to anthropology. Some work within a culture and others stand outside. In any case, there is no reason to claim objectivity in this work.
Biases will always be there. Mead, Benedict, Herskovitz, Sol Tax, Redfield all have different points-of-view and different politics as a result. The goal of total objectivity is chasing after windmills. We are all products of our culture and our views are formed by being forged through our life experiences.

Pete Seeger is a consumate artist who has galvanized audiences not because he is a polemicist but because he has humanitarian values that are communicated in his performance. The Smothers Brothers are funny not because they were polemic either,
but had a genuine insight into satire.

Class separation is not a myth, it is a reality. The rich are waging war against the poor
by attempting to suppress ideological differences. There is not a reaching out by those on Wall Street, today.

There are distinct flaws in various cultures throughout the world. , I am
glad that there are not Islamic beheadings or honor killings, Catholic auto-da-fes, Israeli or Serbian genocidal occupations, dictatorial movements,Protestant burning witches or promoting such, cannibalism or other gross human violations that many cultures bring with them. It's OK to be intolerant of these things.

Pseudo-objectivity does not address these characteristics. It's necessary to be
critical of these cultures when they employ inhumane behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:07 AM

I agree completely Ron.

Maybe the fumes from not bathing regularly have caused brain damage. There has to be some sort of explanation to it. Maybe it is a combination of that with CO poisoning from his high emission level "Artcars."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 09:48 AM

"Did they work as hard to join hands with their political rivals as they did working to get us to join hands with members of other cultures far away and those pursuing class warfare?"

What on earth do you consider the outcome? When you have issues such as war and civil rights - the outcome is joining hands after the issue is resolved.   

Your Pollyanna view of the world ignores the struggles that are being fought and the reason the struggle exists. Expecting participants to bend over and grab their ankles is not going to bring forth change.

Shake hands?? Is that the sort of outcome you wish for criminals?   Would you have wanted to shake hands with a Hitler or a Stalin after their crimes were uncovered and their plans defeated? Is that going to bring world peace - or would it encourage others to commit crime if the retribution is a hug and a kiss?

Conrad, you continue to play spin doctor and gloss over the realities. Your continued reference to promoting cultural traditions is ignorant of the facts that the rest of us are well aware of, yet you continue to disregard.   With each post you are coming across as more unglued and nothing more than a person out of touch with reality and their own environment. It may be an act, but it is failing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM

The main issue here is the contrast between the work done by seeger-smothers etc. 60's USA folk movement,much of it good work, in the area of cross cultural traditions and their seemingly lack of interest in political objectivity- political bipartizanism.

Did they work as hard to join hands with their political rivals as they did working to get us to join hands with members of other cultures far away and those pursuing class warfare?

When you look at it from the standpoint of human rights etc. I am sure that those in the distant cultures that we were encouraged to get to know and love had a very spotty track record themselves.

So if your issue with people you disagree with you is that anyone you dont share values with should be ignored if not removed from the earth or minimally discuraged from appearing in folk venues and media then would not the same apply to folk in foreign lands?

We don't know yet wether seeger and or smothers turned away people they did not agree with who wished to share their stages. We don't know that they did not send missions of discovery (as the seegers did to foreign parts) out to those on the other side of the political divide.

I think that they did not. I guess you could prove otherwise.

But by the tone expressed in this thread thus far I think political myopia, ethnocentrism and exclusion of any view that is not the received view is still very strong in the folk music community a place where all should be welcome all the time no matter what the politics.

Rememer that cultures around the world have values different that our own. To inflict our own values upon other peoples is to invite them to do the same to us. We need to separate political propagandizing and dominance from folk music as in the separation of church and state. It does not mean that churches cant exist but that we can all live together providing that it is done peacefully and within the laws. We need the ecumenical style events that happen between churches with vastly different beliefs. For that to happen imho people in the folk music community have to lower the drawbridges.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:45 AM

Have another!

I won't tell the Audubon Society....they study and protect and appreciate birds.

Hey, I've got a bird for you..........


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:12 PM

Your usual banal double-talk. "Right wing" and "left wing" are merely buzzwords. Imperfect analogies and they explain nothing.

A society is not a bird.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 09:50 PM

Nonsense, Don!!!

As long as the so called right wing and left wing are fighting, the truth is obscured by the mindsets of each. the truth is, the 'fight' between the two wings is very much a contrived apparatus, while our rights are being whittled away making accommodations for new policies, that are against the very foundation on which those who distort claim! ....such as yourself!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 06:58 PM

GfS, I know what fascism is and I know what Nazi-ism is. I am not going to write a whole treatise on the minute points of political science every time I mention either one or the other just to forestall some self-appointed know-it-all such as yourself from jumping on my case and trying to "correct" me when there is nothing to correct, just because you're carrying a grudge from another thread for my having rolled over you like a juggernaut of reason and logic and showed you up for the charlatan that you are.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:26 PM

Folk music is not a bird.

Folk music has many different facets - it all depends on which community and style you are looking at.   

Songs are products of the writer. It is not a commercial venue that will form the song, it is the life and observations of the writer.

Conrad keeps harping on "one brain" and "one sided", but the reality becomes obvious to anyone who reads these posts - Conrad is the one who has focused on one side.

Folk music NEVER lost it's issues. If Conrad truly had been paying attention during the Reagan years, he would have discovered a surge in protest songs that surpassed the output of the 1960's - and the trend continues today.   The conservative media may not give everyone access to these songs.

Conrad is tap dancing on a fence and does not realize that there is solid ground on both sides. Conrad is looking at the world in his own reality, and he does not grasp that the reality the rest of us live in are exactly the opposite of what he is claiming.

The sky is not falling. The music is not being "hurt". The music exists for what it is. It does not exist for the purposes of being scrutinized by critics like Conrad- it exists as an expression of the artist.   Conrad suggests a censorship of the artist view when he suggests "balance".   Balance only comes from the artist.   

The playing field is level, what they players do on it is their choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:09 PM

Actually that is correct. Right wing and left wing are on the same bird and if you only let it have the one and not both the bird has difficulty flying.

Great!

Same with folk music. If you eee a bird with only one wing and that one not for you one would not want to go for a ride on it.

Brilliant


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 02:57 PM

GfS, your clue train ran off a cliff several threads back.

Have you been following this thread at all? Do you have any idea what Conrad is really on about?

I didn't think so!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:24 AM

Regarding fate of a politicized musical tradition when the opposite side takes over.

Consider the recent debates in regard to torture.

The most important most often cited case against torture has been the assumption that the reason the good people don't torture is because they do not wish to have torture visited upon them when the good guys are captured.

Same for folk music. When the tide changes you loose if you are overly one sided- branded.

Actually with Regan and the rise of consevative points of view this is exactly what happened to folk music. It lost its issues. Civil Rights and the war and then being branded lefty-hippie it was not selected by the people who made the choices when the culture changed.
This would not have happened had a wider variety of views been presented.

Each time we loose a song we loose a treasure no matter what the song is about.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 10:08 AM

very good! Each practice their own myopic wisdom of trashing the other's art.

I dont defend political points of view I simply defend art and we have to stop the process of censorship, and trashing of the art of either side.

Song have to thread the needles of history in order to survive. We have to make the eyes of the needle bigger and present music as a language rather than an ideology or media to be possessed rather than shared.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 01:37 AM

Don Firth: "If fascists manage to take over, then, believe me,......"

IF?????????????
HOP ABOARD THE CLUE TRAIN.......

Dearest Donny,
Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National SOCIALISM) was the ideology and practice of the Nazi Party AND of Nazi Germany. It was a unique variety of fascism that involved biological racism and anti-Semitism. Nazism presented itself as politically synergistic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from RIGHT-AND LEFT-WING ideologies; in practice, Nazism was a far right form of politics.

If you read, and comprehended my prior posts, especially during the primaries and election, you may have stumbled upon this quote(from me),..... "Right wing and left wing are on the same bird!"

Respectfully(this time),

GfS

P.S. c/p from Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 01:11 AM

Just read your post, Stringsinger...you must be dizzy from all that spinning. That is the clearest example of indoctrinated spin I think I've ever read! Good job, keep it up,....see if you can walk straight now......

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 10:47 PM

If fascists manage to take over, then, believe me, you will have far more important problems than what songs you can sing.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 08:53 PM

No- taking sides with an artform is intolerable. Remember that you might think you are right but so does the other side. Do you want them to exclude you when they get into power?

Therefore keep the genre of folk music open to all. Grind no one to dust dismiss no ones opinion just because you may think you are right.

No one has the right to trash the art of another. Yet some here seem to support that view.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 09:55 AM

There is no art or performance value in what Hannity or the Tea Partiers are doing.
If so, there would be more interest by the public in what they had to say.

I could acknowledge some performance value there if it existed.

Listening to the "facts" is like interpreting the bible or the Constitution. Besides,
where do you hear valid facts these days? On mainstream media?

The cliche about the broken clock doesn't apply to the international time zone.
You could be wrong somewhere all the time.

Side choosing is not so important as a decision made on a willingness to assimilate information that makes sense. Eventually a decision has to be made as to what is sensible and what is nonsense.

When it comes to performance art, politics is not as important as the performance.

Hannity, Palin, Limbaugh and the Tea Partiers are poor performers because they make no sense, they are boring and stupid.

"Taking sides" is an assumption that receiving information is analogous to being on a sports team.   This is not the issue. It is a matter of judgement (some might call this judgmental) based on reasonable information.

Access to all sides of the argument doesn't mean all sides are correct. And access to all sides doesn't belong necessarily in a concert or political rally.

There is this myth that open-mindedness without conviction is desirable. Being open-minded isn't necessarily agreement with an idea.

There are some ideas that are intolerable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 02:00 AM

Stringsinger: "We need more concerts that are political rallies. This would open the door to more dialogue and not shut it. Censoring political content is one way of shutting the door on open dialogue."

To be fair, that is what Hannity, and the Tea Partiers are doing, by the way...so even if we don't agree with their politics,they're doing it.....Now remember what you said,..."Censoring political content is one way of shutting the door on open dialogue."

I think one should listen CAREFULLY to both(or three) sides, compare them to the FACTS..(and make a concerted, objective effort, not based on a preconception, of what they SHOULD be), before there is any 'side choosing'. Even a broken clock is right, two times a day!

GfS


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