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BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?

*#1 PEASANT* 21 Mar 10 - 11:24 AM
catspaw49 21 Mar 10 - 12:48 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 10 - 12:55 PM
catspaw49 21 Mar 10 - 01:01 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM
pdq 21 Mar 10 - 01:15 PM
catspaw49 21 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM
catspaw49 21 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM
pdq 21 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM
Bill D 21 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM
catspaw49 21 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM
michaelr 21 Mar 10 - 02:21 PM
pdq 21 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM
Don Firth 21 Mar 10 - 02:46 PM
Greg F. 21 Mar 10 - 02:55 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 10 - 04:23 PM
artbrooks 21 Mar 10 - 04:29 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM
catspaw49 21 Mar 10 - 04:42 PM
akenaton 21 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM
catspaw49 21 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM
Jim Dixon 21 Mar 10 - 04:51 PM
akenaton 21 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM
Bettynh 21 Mar 10 - 05:01 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 10 - 05:04 PM
artbrooks 21 Mar 10 - 05:20 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Mar 10 - 05:20 PM
akenaton 21 Mar 10 - 05:52 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Mar 10 - 06:02 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 10 - 06:13 PM
artbrooks 21 Mar 10 - 09:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Mar 10 - 10:24 PM
ichMael 21 Mar 10 - 10:35 PM
catspaw49 22 Mar 10 - 12:16 AM
akenaton 22 Mar 10 - 05:03 AM
EBarnacle 22 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM
EBarnacle 22 Mar 10 - 11:45 AM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 10 - 02:13 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Mar 10 - 02:48 PM
Seamus Kennedy 22 Mar 10 - 03:20 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 22 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Mar 10 - 04:54 PM
Bill D 22 Mar 10 - 05:15 PM
Don Firth 22 Mar 10 - 05:54 PM
PoppaGator 22 Mar 10 - 06:21 PM
frogprince 22 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM
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Subject: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:24 AM

Just what I needed is to subject my brain to a special program done a few years ago on Pete Seeger.

I had seen it when it came out but this time it was a fundraiser for PBS with lots of breaks for thought. Here are some observations. What do you think?

Bear in mind that I believe that Pete Seeger said and did many wonderful things and that he has the same freedom of expression to be accorded to anyone.

1. Seeger and Smothers et al. seem to appreciate how to use music in politics—a powerful force. They used it for their issues and positions. (Nothing wrong with that.) However, they seem to be simply the left flip side of others who did the same thing in the first half of the 20th century. Same process but different side of the issue. (I happen to agree with them but that does not make it any different a process)

2. Under the guise of "concerts" the Seeger-Smothers party spokesmen staged political rallies where they limited the slant of the songs and discussions to their own side of the issue. (That's censorship.) These were not concerts but primarily political rallies with music. Granted not all the songs may have been political and a study should be done however it is apparent that there was generally a left slant. Yes Seeger may have done some concerts where his point of view did not dominate. Yes he had the right to do so as it was his freedom.

3. Rather than being considered a folksinger/writer as the program did he should also be considered a political organizer and the rallies should not be called concerts.

4. Yes Seeger can be considered a patriot. All politicos claim to represent their country. Nothing wrong with being a member of the communist party either or associating with them. I am glad that the documentary pointed out that his mind had changed.

So here we find the American aspect of the folk revival manipulated by political activism. Fifty or more years later we seem to find ourselves with the progress wound down. Every other college kid does not carry a guitar and folk music is absent from ordinary television where it had a significant presence earlier.

Folk music is probably bigger than it was fifty or more years ago however everything is now bigger.

I think part of the problem was the over identification indeed the possession of folk music by one set of political ideologies and then also its attachment to the spinning wheel of age set commercial marketing. (Yes Seeger was as I am anti commercialization of folk music a good point.)

So WWW what went wrong? More than politics though.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:48 PM

Your barely readable dried up stream of unconsciousness style makes me wonder if your mother had any children that lived.............

I'm not sure which of the points you are failing to make is the one that this thread might or might not be about but I will defend unto death your right to spout gibberish.

Thanks for posting.........................


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:55 PM

What is this f*ckin' unhealthy obsession you have with Conrad, Spaw? Can you live without leaping up like Pavlov's dog to shower him with personal abuse every time he posts here or would that simply be too much to ask?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:01 PM

That wan't abuse.....It was a question.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

Oh, I see.

Well, I have a question for you too. Do you like sex and travel?

;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:15 PM

Mexican Cornbread


    Ingredients
                  1 cup butter, melted
                  1 cup white sugar
                  4 eggs
                  1 (15 ounce) can cream-style corn
                  1/2 (4 ounce) can chopped green chile peppers, drained
                  1/2 cup shredded Monterey Jack cheese
                  1/2 cup shredded Cheddar cheese
                  1 cup all-purpose flour
                  1 cup yellow cornmeal
                  4 teaspoons baking powder
                  1/4 teaspoon salt

    Directions
        1) Preheat oven to 300 degrees F (150 degrees C). Lightly grease a 9x13 inch baking dish.
        2) In a large bowl, beat together butter and sugar. Beat in eggs one at a time. Blend in cream corn, chiles, Monterey Jack and Cheddar cheese.
        3) In a separate bowl, stir together flour, cornmeal, baking powder and salt. Add flour mixture to corn mixture; stir until smooth. Pour batter into prepared pan.
        4) Bake in preheated oven for 1 hour, until a toothpick inserted into center of the pan comes out clean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM

Yeah, I've always been happy to go fuck myself! And you?   No....wait.....I mean are YOU happy to go fuck yourself.........Now as to Conrad...........Okay, let's put it this way..........

Dear Conrad,

Are you wanting to discuss Seeger and his leftist politics?
Your magnanimous acceptance of everyone's politics?
Something about when folk music was all for the right or something at one point?
Seeger should not have staged concerts that were really rallies?
You disagree with the rally concept unless it is publicized as such?
Music is a powerul force but it should be only used equally by all sides?
Folk music is smaller than it was?
Folk music is bigger than it was?
Folk music grew because of the leftist slant?
Folk music got smaller because of the leftist slant?
All of the above?
None of the above?
Some of the above as well as the role of aphids in the lives of gardeners?


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM

WOW!!!!

pdq, we may disagree on a lot of stuff but I love Mexican style cornbread......well any cornbread actually........and that looks like a great recipe.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

With San Miguel Dark or Sierra Nevada Pale Ale...


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

"Sierra Nevada Pale Ale... "

Oh, my...a landmark! I have to AGREE with pdq on something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM

Damn Bill.....WE both agree with pdq.....Are we going over to the dark side?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 02:21 PM

No -- the dark side is personified by Ann Coulter, whose spectral visage greeted me at the top of this thread. Shudder...


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM

The Mexican cornbread recipe is a bit heavy on the eggs, depending on how large they are.

Two "jumbo" eggs are just about right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 02:46 PM

Take a tortilla, spoon a generous quantity of guacamole acrose the diameter, then fold the "wings" over, sort of like a wrap. Absolutely delicious snack. I love guacamole! And it's good for you!

The big challenge is to keep the guacamole from squirting out the back of the rolled up tortilla onto your shirt-front.

A bit of mariachi music in the background. Or, perhaps, not to get political, but maybe some Spanish Civil War songs. . . .

*#2 PHEASANT*
(The proud bird with its head up its tail)


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 02:55 PM

Great- Return of the Piss Ant.

Probably visited on me for my sins...


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:23 PM

The best thing about corn bread is, you can eat it.

I mention this merely because I once heard about a pig who tried building his house out of the stuff. It didn't work out too well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:29 PM

I do believe that the OP does deserve an honest answer to his questions - not his conjectures and musings, perhaps, but certainly to his questions. So, here goes: yes, no, nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM

Conrad, Joan Baez has always been quite forthright about describing herself as primarily a politician who just happens to also be a singer. Her concerts are definitely crafted to present her political point of view which is based primarily on nonviolence and working for peace. (that would be considered "leftist" in some quarters, but it would probably be considered "rightist" in China)

She is not censoring other points of view in presenting only her own views in a concert, she's simply presenting her own views, that's all. She'd be censoring other points of view if she got elected and helped pass a law prohibiting views other than her own.

Expression of one's own ideas is not censorship of other people's ideas.

If Anne Coulter were a singer, she could give musical concerts presenting her political point of view. Alas! She is not. ;-D Therefore she is limited to talking on TV or radio and writing books and articles to present her point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:42 PM

That doesn't matter at all.....The question is which would eat the cornbread.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM

Don't feed the trolls!


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM

Oh I dunno'........If they like cornbread then what the hell?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:51 PM

Conrad: Are you trying to say that Seeger et al. were TOO political and that's why folk music is less popular today than it might have been? That too many people who otherwise would have been folk music fans were turned off by his politics? And that's a bad thing?

Also, you refer to "others who did the same thing in the first half of the 20th century" who were on the opposite side from Seeger and presumably conservative—but I have no idea who those people are/were. Can you give some examples?

Burl Ives comes to mind, but he was far less political than Seeger, wasn't he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM

They just LOVE cornbread n' molasses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:01 PM

Pete Seeger and the Smothers Brothers hardly constitute a political party. Do you have any idea what was happening in this nation and in the world in 1968? I don't remember any music at all from the KKK or John Birch Society. Just who were the musical opposition? Should we support Tea Party hootenannys?

The cornbread sounds great, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:04 PM

Burl Ives may have had political views....but I find little or no evidence of them in his musical performances.

If you want views from the right wing in song, you pretty much have to go to a few individuals in country music for that...plus Barry Sadler (ballad of the Green Berets).

It's a shame Ronald Reagan never played folk music, eh? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:20 PM

Sadler's songs were pretty much apolitical (not to mention kinda dumb), and I never heard that he himself ever belonged to any movement at all. The fact that someone was in the military and served in Vietnam indicates nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:20 PM

I'm with Spaw on this - I really cannot see the point Conrad is trying to make, other than he doesn't care for Pete Seeger. So???

Because Seeger sings songs from the left, you do not want to consider his performances "concerts"?   ALL songs have a point of view. If you do not agree with that point, it is your choice.

I continue to love Pete Seeger concerts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:52 PM

Always found ole Pete a tad patronising meself!

The sixties were not just populated by Love Y'all hippies.

Some of us were out on the streets, fighting, not name calling like the pussies of today.

Our enemies were Capitalism and Imperialism, we had an American Nuclear Submarine base just a few miles away......we kept ourselves busy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:02 PM

So how did the battle against capitalism and imperialism work out for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:13 PM

How has it worked out for Iraqis, Latin Americans, and Afghans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:23 PM

The richest man in the world is a Latin American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:24 PM

So it looks like the battle continues. All the reason why we need more Pete Seegers and Smothers Brothers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: ichMael
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:35 PM

Yes, that original post is quite...original. What's your point? Politics and music don't mix? Or they do mix? Sorry, genuinely confused.

But you say, Folk music is probably bigger than it was fifty or more years ago however everything is now bigger.

That's true. Take Bruce Springsteen, for example. He's kind of a folkie. Done a bunch of acoustic stuff. And he was traipsing around a while back doing concerts for a Kenyan politician. Springsteen was singing "Born in the U.S.A." to every pair of ears that would listen, and he was singing on behalf of a man named Barry Sotero. The guy got elected and breaks the law regularly now by putting his signature on important documents. So music and politics can be a bad thing, if that's what you're wondering about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:16 AM

Well thank any powers that be for cornbread! On this thread we have folks from the left, the right, and many points in between. We have come together here in agreement on this one issue........Conrad is a dingbat! As often happens with his posts, he gets carried away trying to make a point and then loses it in a massive outpouring of babbling nonsense.

So Conrad, sit back and relax, score yourself some cornbread, and be joyous in the fact that you have brought all these diverse people together to some degree. If that was indeed your entire point, well done........and don't say anything to screw it up! I implore you to let well enough alone and control yourself.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:03 AM

Ron.....The Nuclear Base is now a marina......a Capitalist marina granted :0), but its better than missiles?

I think we may have had a part in making the US Navy a little less comfortable than they are used to.

BTW....We were not a lynch mob, although we had some right nutters in our ranks, we were opposed by pro capitalist factions on both sides. Plenty of Scots made lots of money out of the US Base and we would have been instantly dismissed from our jobs if our membership of the CP had been known.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

Don't knock politics as a kneejerk activity. Any time you express an opinion and defend it, you participate in political activity You are attempting to get others to agree with you or support you. It een happens at social events.

In the case of many folkies, there is the additional factor of entertainment as well as political validation. Most of the people there are probably there for the entertainment first.

One of the beauties of our system is that you are allowed to express yourself, no matter how much of an idiot you come off as. If you get enough people to agree with you, you can classify as a movement, a union or a party.

In theory, that is what elections are for, is to judge candidates' opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:45 AM

If people did not want to hear what performers had to say, do you believe they would show up just for the music? Maybe, but I doubt it.

At the end of the day, most audience members do not go to be challenged, they go to the concert to be entertained.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM

Awright!!! Now this thread is in the BS section where it naturally belongs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM

I think one can distinguish between political rallies (one party one viewpoint) and folk concerts.

This is not to say that music should not have political content of course it can and musicians are free to express themselves -naturally. Not arguing that.

Point is that at times performers make more of the politics than the music, spouting political manifestos, pep talks, call and response slogans and when just a little music is included then they are doing more of a political rally than a concert.

I like seegers line in the documentary "I read the communist newspapers and I read the wall street journal....I would just like them to get into the same room and talk to each other"

That seems a good point of view for folk musicians. What is wrong with sharing the stage? One wonders if those who chose to sing songs from the right or conservative perspective or perhaps pro war would have been welcome if they turned up and asked to play and swap songs with seeger or for that matter the smothers brothers. I don't know- did this occur? Anyone have any documentation.

For those who werent there it is important to remember that smothers brothers made a big point of the fact that seeger was not permitted by the network to be on their program singing the big muddy a political song about viet nam (he later won the battle)

I don't know but did the smothers bros. ever have a right wing conservative singing a pro war song?

Yes you can organize your concerts the way you wish however when you exclude opposing views, and when you project more politics than information about songs, then things look more like political rallys.

Was a generation ripe for the adoption of folk music and its revival captured and lead away by folk performers who pushed left wing agendas? (seeger referred to himself as a lefty) Was the revival stolen and made into a political tool?

If so the "lefty's" used the interest in folk style music in the same way that german nationalists did in the first half of the 20th century and it is just as wrong in each case.

Remember at the top....I noted that seeger did much that was not narrow and political. He was anti commercial which I agree firmly with.

Some great achievements and great songwriting and singing. And he is a patriot and like all politicos he loves his country. He is entitled to his point of view.

But.....what would have happened to all those people who loved the sound of folk music and feel of it if the orientation of the music and the messages of its performers had not become so polarized?

When the country turned away from "hippie- lefties" - did not folk music suffer a bit having been branded?

As a cartist driving my artcars- (I only drive artcars) I am constantly being associated by my adoring public with the hippie movement, or drug culture or leftie politics.(couldnt be further from the truth) When this happens people stop seeing me as art and inflict ideology which keeps us apart. Same thing once when playing a tin whistle- I was playing a song from the protestant tradition a listener taking the music for irish republican spouted an anti british line as if I would agree.

Political branding of a musical genre is harmful and should be avoided. We need to get to the point where all points of view expressed in song can take the same stage at musical events. Don't narrow the options of the audience. If you are confident you are right then they should agree with you but give them choice.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 02:13 PM

You should get Pete Seeger and Joan Baez to sit down with you, then, Conrad, have a heart to heart talk, and straighten them out. Maybe Bruce Springsteen and Billy Bragg too. I wonder how this could be arranged?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 02:48 PM

Any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 03:20 PM

Actually, not to seem naive or anything, but Conrad has an interesting idea..
If we (somebody else, not me) could organize a concert with well-known folkies of each persuasion, right and left, to illustrate their beliefs with songs to a mixed audience of righties and lefties, with respectful attention being paid to both sides - no haranguing or barracking - then we might achieve something that all the shouting heads on TV and spit-flecked demagogues on radio cannot do.

Joan Baez and Jed Marum to kick the show off.

Any others?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM

"Point is that at times performers make more of the politics than the music, spouting political manifestos, pep talks, call and response slogans and when just a little music is included then they are doing more of a political rally than a concert."

Doesn't sound like any Pete Seeger or Smother's Brothers concert I've ever attended. Sure they get their point across, but it is still a concert. Besides, why limit the definition and expecations of the word "concert"?

Protest songs are folk music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM

Exactly Seamus!

Whenever one side dominates you tend to loose the other bringing both sides together even though one might be smaller still increases potential market.

Additionally when there is inclusion or balance we chip away at the branding that makes people see the folk world as being on one side or the other....

Yes Ron- one can have workshops, concerts with themes, politics in music and lyrics fantastic. However, when I know that going to a concert will most likely produce an artist droning on about the war, the economy, the hudson river whatever more than they talk about the songs, history of songs, history of lyrics, origins of songs then I am not feeling so much as if I am at a concert.

I already noted both somthers and seeger did some good things and played wrote and included a wide range over time however, they did succeed in branding an entire generation of people who simply started out liking the sound of ordinary everyday folk music and its qualities as music and verse.

As the Seeger documentary pointed out Pete knew the power of folk music and he put it to work- for one side --at the expense of the intellectual contributions to music of the other side - don't know- would be interesting to find out.

And I will repeat- the seeger smothers party turned out to be on the winning side. I agree with much that they pursued. I am thankful that Seeger saw the light (as I recall when he learned about the deeds of Stalin).

I was struck by the crowd at a workshop at Glen Echo Washington Folk Festival last summer. Seeger and contemporaries music featured. Almost all the same generation- ageing folkies about 50-60.

My theory -
1. population changes in attitude. When a genre of music is branded as one place on the political spectrum and the center of the population changes (in our case to the right as hippies became busismen, lawyers....and Reagan built up conservative patriotism...)
growth of followers will slow.

2.As music moves from live performance to recordings to market it is purchased by the generation with funds at the time. In America at least generational sharing is minimal and with time the age set market is broken off from future generations therefore the next generation does not follow.

The trick is to get folk music to thread through the gears not get wrapped around them. If you want folkmusic growth to continue through time you have to get it like film through the rollers of a projector.
When wrapped up in one issue or point of view it gets derailed.

Additionally when we transform music we sing into music that is marketed and that we purchase we likewise get stuck. It just rolls around and around in its little side niche eventually hitting the bargain basement with hope of only some wondrous reclamation or revival.

If we keep singing the songs, telling the tales as a lifeway while at the same time recording and marketing them there seems to me to be more of an opportunity to grow. The more timeless music - that of daily life, and good word play and rhyme and catchy tunes seem to be the glue that should be exploited to hold things together and not so much the political issues that get dated, become less relevant and need more time to explain to be understood.

Again seeger with his interest in collecting and documenting did much fine work in this area too.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:54 PM

To my Loyal Fan Club in the Peanut gallery (or for you corn gallery).
So glad that you are here to add splashes of color to these threads-simply wondrous. The continuity of ages. Thanks for keeping up with me.
Maybe I should have a fan club!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:15 PM

Fan club? good idea!


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:54 PM

Conrad:    ". . . at times performers make more of the politics than the music, spouting political manifestos, pep talks, call and response slogans and when just a little music is included then they are doing more of a political rally than a concert."

I've been to one helluva lot of folk concerts since the early 1950s, and I have never attended one where what Conrad describes pertained.

Back in the late 1950s, there was a woman who perpetually wore a red dress and played an accordion who sang only hard-charging extreme left-wing songs and had a tendency to take over hoots and song fests. We just stopped letting her know when and where they were happening and that solved the problem.

There's a street singer in Seattle who's specialty is angry topical songs. The option there, if you aren't interested in what he is bitching about this time, is to keep walking.

I toss in the occasional peace oriented song (Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye, The Green Fields of France, Two Brothers) into my programs, but I've never had any complaints. I figure that if these songs offend anyone, then they need to be offended.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:21 PM

To be fair, Pete Seeger has almost always included singalong and/or call-and-response numbers promoting some kind of human-rights or "political" viewpoint. He has always been pretty safe in assuming that his audience would be happy to participate.

For a performer to express his own opinion is NOT "censorship." Censorship is exactly the opposite: the attempt to prevent people from expressing themselves.

If you don't like it, don't attend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM

With the context of Conrad's other postings,I think we can read something between his lines here:
We were comfortable going out to hear people like Pete Seeger, who had an obvious agenda of promoting peace, liberty, and celebration of human diversity. So why should we be uncomfortable with singers who spout a little venemous hatred about the majority of the people on earth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM

Nothing wrong with wonderful sing along and call and responses but it does not have to be political to be just as fun. People enjoy the process and would still be there without the political content. Thats just it....at the time due to generational and market changes there were a lot of people who agreed that of all the available genres that folk music was the key that turned their locks. This has a lot to do with perception of the music of one or two generations back and search for identity but also has to do with many other dimensions of life including politics, economic conditions etc....world view.

So there was this desire to experience the type of music that folk is but then it was branded as politically left, end the war, civil rights (all good topics and causes) but once branded the entire relationship of the audience to the music and those who wish to come in changes.

Its not that seeger always staged political rallys but that he did it quite a bit along with lots of wonderful things.

Again performers can always be free to express themselves. Did Seeger and smothers censor which is to say deny others access to their stages? Don't know and am waiting to hear. They were known to keep to their own points of view strongly though.

In the broad concept of marketplace it is helpful to avoid appearing to be exclusive even though you might not actually be excluding. A successful green grocer sells lots of stuff - not just apples. Suppliers of a grocer that sold only apples would not bother to market other products to him and even though the quality of apples was very good those who did not like apples or had grown tired of them would also not stop in. Is that censorship....maybe not but it is sure not being helpful if you are the only green grocer in town or dominate the market, television networks, stages....

I tend to think that the story of Dylan and Newport has relevance here-his change of genres- but the brain cells need to have a meeting with mr yoengling.

Conrad


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