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BS: The Quakers

Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Jan 10 - 11:53 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Jan 10 - 11:54 AM
CarolC 12 Jan 10 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Q as guest 12 Jan 10 - 02:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM
CapriUni 12 Jan 10 - 02:39 PM
Mrrzy 12 Jan 10 - 02:47 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 10 - 02:53 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM
Becca72 12 Jan 10 - 03:17 PM
PoppaGator 12 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM
CapriUni 12 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM
katlaughing 12 Jan 10 - 05:02 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM
Liz the Squeak 12 Jan 10 - 05:49 PM
CapriUni 12 Jan 10 - 06:38 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 06:46 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM
Les from Hull 12 Jan 10 - 10:49 PM
GUEST,TIA 12 Jan 10 - 11:10 PM
GUEST,999 12 Jan 10 - 11:16 PM
Roger the Skiffler 13 Jan 10 - 05:53 AM
The Sandman 13 Jan 10 - 08:30 AM
Mrrzy 13 Jan 10 - 11:17 AM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 10 - 12:34 PM
Ruth Archer 13 Jan 10 - 12:48 PM
Mrrzy 13 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM
PoppaGator 13 Jan 10 - 03:25 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM
The Sandman 13 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM
Acorn4 13 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM
olddude 13 Jan 10 - 05:52 PM
Jeri 13 Jan 10 - 06:07 PM
olddude 13 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM
Tug the Cox 13 Jan 10 - 07:07 PM
Janie 14 Jan 10 - 01:35 AM
rich-joy 14 Jan 10 - 01:51 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jan 10 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,Llanfair 14 Jan 10 - 05:12 AM
Penny S. 14 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM
Tug the Cox 14 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,999 14 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM
Dorothy Parshall 14 Jan 10 - 06:22 PM
CapriUni 15 Jan 10 - 01:19 AM
CapriUni 15 Jan 10 - 01:33 AM
theleveller 15 Jan 10 - 04:11 AM
mauvepink 15 Jan 10 - 09:03 AM
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Subject: BS: The Quakers
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:53 AM

Follwing on from the thread about Cadbury's Chocolate, which was started by John Cadbury, a Quaker....I thought the Quakers deserved a thread of their own, as I'm sure they have much interesting history...

It was only a few years back when I was lucky enough to see The Quaker Tapestries whilst they were in an exhibition in Exeter Cathedral. They were extremely beautiful and I'd urge anyone to go and see them if ever they're being exhibited close to you. Their home is in Kendal, in the Lake District...and here is their excellent website...

The Quaker Tapestries


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:54 AM

:0) Er...that is, John started the chocolate, not the thread...LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 01:39 PM

I used to be a Quaker by convincement, and attended a weekly Meeting for Worship for a few years with my then-husband and my son. But I found that I was too weird even for the Quakers, so I stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:00 PM

Baker Chocolate Company also started by them, in 1765, in Massachusetts. Now absorbed by Kraft who have retained the name for choclate used in cooking and candy-making.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM

I like their oats.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:39 PM

CarolC: There are many flavors of Quakers, and some of them are quite.. eccentric. If you were too strange for one Meeting, you might just fit in perfectly with another.

I myself was raised (vaguely) Quaker; my father's family attended Germantown Monthly (and Weekly, iirc) Meeting in Pennsylvania, which was/is Orthodox. His sister Jean left to attend a Hicksite Meeting (less Christo-centric, more socially-active).

By the time I came along, he'd stopped attending meetings altogether, but I was taught the Friends' philosophy of Inner Light, and how that connects to the Peace and Simplicity testimonies. And we subscribed to Friends Journal, for a while.

I'm now a member of a Quaker-Pagan mailing list on Yahoo.

And yes, about Quakers and Chocolate: Quakers were opposed to alchohol because it tended to lead to violence, and people getting into fights in bars. So they promoted drinking Chocolate as a substitute: Just as addictive ;-), and something to do socially, but without the lapses in judgement and black eyes that follow.

Now, I have a craving for Mother's brownies, for which she always used Baker's unsweetened (and she also used it in making hot drinking chocolate -- not cocoa. Chocolate, which she would sprinkle with nutmeg.).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:47 PM

My paternal ancestry is Quaker, but genealogical research shows us getting thrown out a lot, usually for having way too much fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:53 PM

I think the one I went to was one of the more eccentric ones, CapriUni. ;-)

We used to meet at the home of someone who didn't drive, and who had no indoor plumbing. They had an old converted chicken coop that was used as an outhouse. It was dubbed, "The Gloria Memorial Outhouse" in honor of one of the chickens who once lived in it.

But maybe you're right. There might be one out there in which I might feel at home. Probably not here where I live, though.

My brother and his wife and their kids live on the campus of the Sandy Springs Friends School, in Olney, Maryland. She's in charge of IT there, and he drives one of their school buses. I don't know if they're Quakers or not, but their kids go to the school, which is an excellent school.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

Correction, Sandy Spring Friends School.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Becca72
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 03:17 PM

LOL Jack


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM

The Society of Friends (i.e. Quakers) in the US founded a number of excellent schools and colleges over the years. I have no idea which ones might still be under Quaker jurisdiction and which are currently secular and only historically Quaker.

A number of expensive private K-12 and 9-12 schools include the word "Friends" in their names, almost as many as include the words "Country Day." One prominent example is the Washington, D.C. area school attended by the President's daughters (and the offspring of other recent Presidents as well, e.g., Chelsea Clinton).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM

CarolC: Like I said, we'd never go to Meeting, much, when I was growing up. But as a kid, I just extended the concept of Inner Light to all living things (not just humans), and went outside and had Silent, Unprogrammed, Meetings with the trees.

:-)

That's how I became Pagan Quaker.

Since then, my meditations have led me to the idea that the Inner Light is inherent in all matter in the universe, without any Divine Point of Origin.

That's how I became a non-theist Quaker.

I'm not a "non-believer," though (really dislike that term). I believe in many things: first among them that Life is basically Good. And that the World is Beautiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:02 PM

That comes across so well in your writings and artwork, CU.

I found we had Quaker ancestors, some very recently, on my mom's side. I've written about one of them on here. He went into Ohio territory alone with his horse, no weapon. When asked how he expected to survive the "Indians" he made some comment about him coming with good intentions, etc. and after returning said his horse was more scared than he and he'd had no problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM

Sounds good, CapriUni :-)

PoppaGator, the Sandy Spring Friends School is Quaker. It's associated with the Sandy Spring Friends (Quaker) Meeting, which I have attended.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

BBC link to the Quaker beliefs and history


Famous Quakers (cripes, Richard Nixon's on that list!)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Why the link to chocolate?
Fry's Rowentree's Cadbury's.....all started by quakers...I think


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:49 PM

Many of the original food 'giants' such as Cadbury's, Fry's etc, were started by Quakers because in English law, they were forbidden to seek employment in the worlds of finance, medicine, law or church. Not a lot else left but commerce, so they went for it in a big way.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:38 PM

LTS -- Also, Chocolate tends to make people cheerful. And George Fox did ask us to "walk cheerfully over the Earth."

Oh, and more on the Friends and commerce: There is no historical connection between Quaker Oats and actual Quakers, Jack the Sailor. But because the Quakers were associated with ethical commerce, and quality products, sticking the word "Quaker" on the label inspired comsumer confidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:46 PM

Thanks Liz....always wondered about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM

By co-incidence I was talking to a mate today about Fry's Five Boys Chocolate bars....anybody remember them?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:49 PM

Also the Reckitt family here in Hull were Quakers (Reckitt and Colman, now Reckitt Benckiser).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:10 PM

Ya want proudly avid Quaker whack-job schooling?

Haverford College.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:16 PM

They make great oats, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:53 AM

Although I haven't been to a meeting (don't have one near) for years I consider myself "non-attending" rather than "lapsed" and wish I lived up to the high standards I know Friends should aspire to.

Rts


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:30 AM

yes, I am one too, but dont attend very often.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:17 AM

The quakes, as we called them, in the Phila area never talked about god, only about the Inner Light. I've been to a couple of meetings here in Central VA for various celebratory reasons of life or death but they always talked about god, never about the Inner Light. I like the Inner Light better.
But I don't call myself Quaker, and Dad, who did so self-identify, was an atheist albeit a conscientious objector in WWII. He got experimented on by, among others, look Jane, C. Everett Koop. Guess what? They didn't know how to cure the frostbite and hepatitis they gave him...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 12:34 PM

No connection??!! Y'all can't fool me! There is one on the box!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 12:48 PM

"C. Everett Koop"

He was my specialist when I was little! Did he experiment on people?!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

From a Google search tha sent to somewhere in Wikipedia:

Medical experiments

Draftees in Civilian Public Service became medical and scientific research test subjects in human medical experiments under the direction of the Office of Scientific Research and Development and the Surgeon General at medical institutions such as Harvard Medical School, Yale and Stanford Universities, and Massachusetts General Hospital. These experiments involved a range of research topics, sometimes endangering the health of the COs.[38][39]
Conscientious objector Harry Lantz distributes rat poison for typhus control in Gulfport, Mississippi.

Hepatitis: During the 1940s the cause, method of communication and treatment of infectious hepatitis was not well understood. Experimentation began with COs working at psychiatric hospitals and was expanded to a major research project with 30 to 60 test subjects at the University of Pennsylvania and Yale University. The men were inoculated with infected blood plasma, swallowed nose and throat washings and the human body wastes of infected patients, and drank contaminated water.[40]

As a young surgeon, C. Everett Koop was part of the research team at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. He relates his experience with CPS test subjects:
"         And the first time I was introduced to this whole program when I as a young surgeon, was asked to do serial biopsies on their livers to see what the effect of the virus was in the production of the changes in the liver. And in that way, I got to know that a lot of these young men had no idea that the risk they were taking also included death. And some of those youngsters did die and it was a very difficult thing for me to be part of, because you know, you're powerless, when you're part of the big team.

It couldn't happen today. Internal Review Boards would not permit the use of a live virus in human subjects unless they really understood what was going to happen to them. And I doubt that even if they knew what the risk was, that an Internal Review Board in any academic institution would consent to that kind of experimental work.
        "

—C. Everett Koop[41]

The hepatitis research was instrumental in determining a virus is responsible for the disease and that it is transmitted through human filth, serum and drinking water.[40]


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:25 PM

FWIW, there's a quite delightful "group" on Facebook called the Association of Bad Quakers. Non-Quakers are welcome; all that's required is a sense of humor about one's beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM

A couple of years ago, I went to a music camp at the Quaker Center outside Santa Cruz (California). A majority of the participants were Quakers. As a progressive Catholic, I fit in with them quite well. They seemed like Unitarians who were a little closer to Christian beliefs.

Many of them joked about their experiences with the snootiness of "Philadelphia Quakers." Apparently, the stereotype is that the Philadelphia Quakers think they're the only "correct" Quakers. We have some Catholics who think they're the only true Catholics, so I understood.

Just before it closed for earthquake reconstruction several years ago, the De Young Museum in San Francisco had an exhibit of the Peaceable Kingdom paintings of Quaker painter Edward Hicks (1780-1849). Hicks painted many, many versions of this picture, each one a little different from the others. The exhibit tied the paintings to the strife among the Quakers - when the factions among the Quakers were getting along with each other, Hicks painted the beasts in the Kingdom closer together and in harmony. When there was discord among Quakers, Hicks painted the animals far apart from each other.

Eventually, there was a permanent split in the Society of Friends, although the various branches are still connected to each other in many ways. One branch, Evangelical Friends International branch Richard Nixon belonged to, is more-or-less like most evangelical Christian denominations, meeting in churches, singing hymns, and listening to sermons. Nixon attended Quaker Whittier College. The college is located in the City of Whittier, California, which at one time was a largely Quaker community.

The better-known Quakers are the ones who gather in "meetings," sitting in silence until somebody is inspired to speak. They sing a lot - but not during services [the Rise Up Singing songbook has Quaker roots - for better or for worse]. These Quakers are generally pacifists - don't know about the Nixon Quakers and pacifism. I know a lot of folkies who are Quakers. I hope some will drop in and give an inside perspective (and correct some of my limited outside perspective). I've had a fair amount of contact with Quakers and have sung in Quaker facilities quite often, but I'm never attended Quaker religious services. I've been very impressed by what I've seen of the Quakers, especially by their concern for social justice.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

correct, quaker meetings are silent.
sometimes[generally] more regular members,or occasionally visiting quakers will get up and talk about something, that they have been thinking about during the week, there are no songs during the meeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

Apparently we owe our modern idea of pricing goods in shops to the Quakers. Before that nothing had a price and it was all done by haggling rather like that scene with the beard on the market stall in "The Life of Brian" - the Quaker idea was that everything had a fair price, and their shops became very popular because of this resulting in other shops adopting the system.

Try to imagine the scenes at the Tesco checkout if the Quakers hadn't bequeated us this.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM

Imagine how many bar codes there would have to be.
Imagine Walmart checkout people trained at haggling and a having to justify to their managers having "given away" a penny a pound on the sweet potatoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: olddude
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:52 PM

They make the very best soldiers also


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:07 PM

Dan, haha.

It's a shame InOBU isn't around. (He's a Quaker.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: olddude
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM

Jeri :-)

they fight violence with love, how cool is that


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:07 PM

Poppagator, can't find this link on facebook. Could you check if its accurate, or send me a link. Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Janie
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:35 AM

I'm not Quaker, and do not know much about the faith doctrines of religious Friends. I do know that I am more than satisfied with Carolina Friends School, which my teenage son has attended for the last 5 years, and which continues its affiliations with the Durham and Orange Co. Quaker meetings.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: rich-joy
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:51 AM

There are some publications available on the Net, by Richenda Scott, regarding the history of the Quakers.

By the by, she and I share a first name and I had never heard of another whilst growing up in West Aussie (Down Under) in the 50s. I was later told that "Richenda" was a family name of the Gurney's, one of whom (Elizabeth), married into the Quakers via prison reformer Joseph Fry. Thereafter, there was at least one "Richenda" every generation or two.



Cheers, R-J


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:33 AM

Quaker Beliefs - Youtube - An Interview

History of the Religious Society of Friends - Wiki



Elizabeth Fry - A wonderful woman


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,Llanfair
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:12 AM

I have done a lot of reseasch into my Dad's family history, and have had problems finding the parents of Ellis Pugh, from Dolgellau. A hundred years before the Ellis I'm researching, there was another Ellis Pugh who, hounded by Welsh suspicion of Quakers, emigrated to Pennsylvania, where he wrote the first book on the subject.
Bearing in mind that Welsh families tend to use the same christian names in every generation, I can only assume that I am descended from the ex-pat Ellis.
Being non-conformists, it is hard to find any records before the first census. I'll have to spend a day or two at Aberystwyth library I think, to find more information.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM

I am wondering if Friends should not stand up to the current idea that haggling should return as being in some way fairer to the customer.

Bad Quakers - Bryant and May match factory, of the phossy jow and the match girls strike.

Please read the thread about the oats before repeating the joke - it's a rip off! And leads to difficulties with domain names.

Song connection.

One Friend went to sleep, went to sleep in meeting,
One Friend and the clerk, went to sleep in meeting...

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM

Great song by Sydney Carter   about George Fox
'Old Leather Breeches and Shaggy Shaggy Locks.'


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM

"Please read the thread about the oats before repeating the joke - it's a rip off!"

Certainly. Right away. Where's the link.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:22 PM

How intriguing! As a life long, heavily involved Quaker or member of the Religious Society of Friends, this thread has a beautiful assortment of strange, true, or moderately off the wall comments. I wish I had time to respond to each! Check many sources. No single one has all the "truth" if, in fact, there is any one truth amongst Friends. If one lives in the light of one's life, one chooses/finds/follows one's own inner guidance.

Saw a button back then: "Nixon's no Quaker. He's a faker." Philadelphia Yearly Meeting suggested to his home meeting that he was not a Quaker but that meeting in CA said he was. Each meeting has it's own personality; each Friend their own way of expressing who they are in the Quaker spectrum - from fundamentalist to non-theist.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:19 AM

Joe Offer --

regarding the Peaceable Kingdom: This version (from around 1845) was the one I grew up with; I think it was part of my household since before I was born (the print is now hanging in my bedroom in my house in Virginia)

As I understand it, Edward Hicks meant for each of the animals to stand in as an allegory for different "Weighty" (I.E. people of standing and respect) Friends within the Society, showing their flaws as well as their strengths... Well, it turns out that Edward's cousin, Elias Hicks, was at the center of the major split in the Society, between those who wanted to be more Christ- and Bible-Centric, and those who wanted the Society to be based more on personal revelation from the Inner Light.

When I first saw the image of Elias Hicks' portrait for the first time, online, his face looked vaguely familiar.

And then I realised who he reminded me of. What do you think -- do you see a family resemblence?

;-)

(My mother, btw, often said that that painting was a perfect illustration of our family philosophy -- Animals and children, front and center, while the grown-ups doing legal contracts and trade are way off in the distance)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:33 AM

Guest, 999 -- Well, I mention that the company name "Quaker" (along with the image of a Quaker in the logo) was an advertising gimmick, earlier in this thread, here. But here's an outside link that gives a very brief history of the parent company, and attributed the name and logo to Henry Crowell: American Cereal Company


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:11 AM

You can find an excellent history of the early Quaker movement in Christopher Hill's 'The World Turned Upside Down: Radical Ideas During the English Revolution'.

William Cobbett in 'Rural Rides' was pretty vitriolic about Quaker financiers and businessmen and their part in the destruction of the 'cottage economy', decrying their capitalistic cunning and, especially the lending of money with interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 09:03 AM

Being a Quaker Woman is quite an interesting take on the whole thing. The idea of equality of genders within the Quakers is refreshing I find.

I have attended several Friend's meetings and seldom did I ever come away without something being answered. It's quite a magical experience and it's spiritual significance can be far reaching. The whole non-judgemental approach is as exhilarating and helpful for anyone with faith as it is for those who have doubts, like me, but still have a spirituality they wish to examinine.

While generally being thought of as a Christian religion, one does not have to be a Christian. I have yet to meet a Quaker who did not have something 'peaceful' going on with them. I totally respect how and what they are.

mp


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