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BS: Judicial murder in China

theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 05:27 AM
Stu 29 Dec 09 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,Falco 29 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM
SINSULL 29 Dec 09 - 08:22 AM
bubblyrat 29 Dec 09 - 08:25 AM
theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 08:31 AM
theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 08:36 AM
SINSULL 29 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 09 - 08:40 AM
SINSULL 29 Dec 09 - 08:40 AM
SINSULL 29 Dec 09 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Falco 29 Dec 09 - 08:45 AM
theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 08:47 AM
Stu 29 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM
Bobert 29 Dec 09 - 08:53 AM
theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 08:53 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 08:56 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 09:13 AM
bubblyrat 29 Dec 09 - 09:21 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Falco 29 Dec 09 - 09:32 AM
bubblyrat 29 Dec 09 - 09:39 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM
bubblyrat 29 Dec 09 - 09:42 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Falco 29 Dec 09 - 09:50 AM
Greg F. 29 Dec 09 - 09:53 AM
bubblyrat 29 Dec 09 - 09:58 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 09 - 10:07 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Falco 29 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM
Donuel 29 Dec 09 - 10:13 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 09 - 10:17 AM
Donuel 29 Dec 09 - 10:19 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 09 - 10:29 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 10:44 AM
Donuel 29 Dec 09 - 10:49 AM
Lox 29 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM
Donuel 29 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM
Donuel 29 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,PeterC 29 Dec 09 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Falco 29 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM
theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 12:24 PM
Paul Burke 29 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Dec 09 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 29 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM
theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 02:06 PM
theleveller 29 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM
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Subject: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:27 AM

Akmal Shaikah, a mentally ill Britain, was today executed by the Chinese authorities despite please for clemency from around the globe.

The deliberate taking of a human life in this way, for whatever reason, is murder pure and simple. The death penalty has no place in any society that considers itself to be civilised - there are no arguments and no reasons that can condone it. Those who support the death penalty in any country in the world are accomplicies to murder.

I would urge anyone who condemns this behaviour to take a few moments to ponder on this issue in support of Mr Shaikah and the thousands of others who are put to death every year by barbaric governments across the globe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:05 AM

Here here.

Spare a thought for the nameless thousands murdered in Tibet and China too. Thanks to the greed of the west, China can now do just what they want (like they did in Copenhagen).

This is a tragedy for Shaikah and his family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM

He had no history of "mentally illness". Please respect the laws of this country. He was found guilty of one of the most vile and repulsive crimes in our society. Some might consider these crimes inexcusable, while others might consider these to be your average, everyday crime. They are not, they are done for personal gain and lifestyle at the expense of the lives of others.

You may well wish to remain blind to see the sheer misery his wares could bring into this country. I admire them for what they did and wish the British government would learn from it instead of providing such people with Pool tables and wide screen televisions in the Hotels here they call prisons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:22 AM

I oppose the death penalty. I also recognize the right of a sovereign nation to carry out justice according to its legal system.

China's justice is harsh. Choose another country in which to break the law if you value your life.

Shaikah's family has suffered a bitter loss. I pity them. China has made it clear that it will excute drug dealers in spite of international pressure.

I wonder which message will be proved more effective - the US swinging door that puts dealers back out on the streets despite repeated offences or the Chinese death penalty.

For the record, my son is a drug addict despite years of rehab. I have no qualms about murdering drug dealers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:25 AM

So,what do you suggest,Mr Leveller ?? Are we to bombard China with nuclear missiles ?? Boycott anything that is manufactured there ( which is virtually everything nowadays) ?? Recall our Ambassador ??Send a note ? (We have no gunboats any more). Or face up to the fact that it is A) inadvisable to undertake visits in the first place,to a country where the death penalty exists for up to sixty ( I think ?)different offences ,including adultery & rape, and B) if we simply MUST go there, it is MOST UNWISE to take along,whether knowingly or un-knowingly,any proscribed substances.
          As to the mental state of the man concerned, I could not possibly comment,although if he WAS suffering from any disorder ( Bipolarism has been suggested but not authenticated?),then his nearest & dearest should have prevented him from undertaking such a potentially hazardous,for one whose Mentis is not wholly Compos,expedition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:31 AM

"Please respect the laws of this country."

Absolutely not. I have no respect for laws that murder people and countries that have no respect for human life. Should I respect the laws of countries where women are stoned to death, people are tortured and other repressive pratices are used? To commit judicial murder puts you on a par with the criminal. If you support that, you are an accomplice to murder and, therefore, by your own moral priciples, should suffer the same consequences.

Let me quote a passage from Tzetan Todorov, one of the great commentators on the twentieth century and especially the barbarities of the Soviet gulags and Nazi death camps, in his book Hope and Memory:

"The death penalty is not just an ineffective weapon in the fight against crime; it also has a negative effect on the society that uses it. Like other fotrms of vengeance, it creates the illusion that evil can be got rid of in the person of the guilty party...this punishment implies that the criminal is incapable of change. For Rousseau, perfectibility was the very definition of the human: unlike other animals, human beings are not determined by their nature and are capable of changes by acts of free will. THIS CONCEPT OF HUMANITY LIES AT THE ROOT OF DEMOCRATIC RULE (my caps)... we may therefore question whether states that continue to make wide use of the death penalty can really be considered part of the democratic world."


"I admire them for what they did"

Then you can in no way assume the moral high ground. Like I said, that makes you an accomplice to the murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:36 AM

"So,what do you suggest,Mr Leveller ??"

So what do you suggest we do, Mr Bubblyrat? Bury our heads in the sand? Look the other way? I think you should consider what happened in Nazi Germany. Or perhaps you think that was OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

Absolutely not? Then feel free to travel to China, Saudi Arabia or any other country with harsh, unforgiving laws and break them.

What are you suggesting be done?
Other than the pondering you already suggested?


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:40 AM

Sinsull uses the word 'murder' here in, if I interpret correctly, implied quotes. 'Judicial murder' is, of course, an emotive oxymoron. If judicial, it can't really be murder, except rhetorically.

Falco understandably defends the ways of his country; but the Chinese do seem, by comparison with most, somewhat execution-happy.   So do several MidEast countries — they seem to top quite a lot of people, by stoning or beheading, for various sexual offences &c, in several states like Saudi. And certain states of the USA do seem to go on with such procedures rather more than somewhat. & we have the long-running thread about wherever·it·is that wants to execute homosexuals, which has understandably long since lost the thread [ambiguity intentional] & become just an exchange of views on the morality & implications of the homosexual lifestyle.

I am not quite so vehemently opposed to any form of capital punishment as I was when young — some crimes seem so unpardonable that their perpetrators might almost be said to have resigned the right to membership of humanity and such 'right to life' as such status would warrant. But if such sanctions are to obtain, a great degree of circumspectness and moderation is surely essential. [I only say if — and I am aware these reflections are imprecise and inchoate.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:40 AM

Nazi Germany?
Flame alert. Nothing to be accomplished here but inflammatory rhetoric.
Bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:43 AM

I'm back.
Sad but true, I did not misspeak. I have no qualms about murdering drug dealers.
I was not speaking about China's capital punishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:45 AM

If only more countries would take this approach with convicted drug dealers. Drud dealing is harmful and illegal and no one should find excuses for them.

Many here have expressed concern about growing cocaine use, particularly in western Europe, where demand was reaching alarming levels.

Too many professional, educated people use cocaine, often denying their addiction, and drug abuse by celebrities is often presented uncritically by the media leaving young people confused and vulnerable.

Drug deaths in Europe are at their highest ever.

I repeat, I admire China for what they did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:47 AM

"What are you suggesting be done?"

For a start, support the many wordwide organisations that are seeki8ng to combat this sort of behaviour. Secondly, lobby our own government to make it clear that it is not acceptable. Thirdly, if you live in a country that still exercises the death penaly, (like the USA), use you voices and your votes to oppose this.

"Then feel free to travel to China, Saudi Arabia or any other country with harsh, unforgiving laws and break them."

Why would I want to do that? Do you think that would achieve something? Are you saying that the way to oppose these laws is to become a criminal? Sounds like muddled thinking to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

"I also recognize the right of a sovereign nation to carry out justice according to its legal system."

Like Hitler's Third Reich? Pol Pot perhaps? What about Saddam's legal system? All sovereign countries.

"China's justice is harsh."

Too true; they also execute people for tax evasion and any number of other crimes some of which expose China's deep hypocrisy: from wikipedia.

"then his nearest & dearest should have prevented him from undertaking such a potentially hazardous,for one whose Mentis is not wholly Compos,expedition."

Perhaps if you have no direct experience of mental illness or people suffering from it you should think harder before making fatuous statements like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:53 AM

Face it folks... The world isn't thet way that we want it... Other countries do some purdy un-human things... Ahhhhh, so does the United States... We put kids to death... We allow people in Texas to be rounded up, have confessions beat out of them, appoint dumb attorneys who sleep in court while supposedly defending them and then, ahhhhhh, murder them...

Yeah, if the United States wants to be this great protector of human rights, it can get to work right here at home first before trying to impose it's hypocrisy on others...

With that said, yeah, that was a purdy dumb un-human thing that the Chinese did... QWhat are we gonna do??? Nuke them???

Oh, while I'm on it, George W is responsible for upwards of a million peiople being killed just so he and his boys could get their jollies and he is still a free man... What gives there???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:53 AM

"Flame alert. Nothing to be accomplished here but inflammatory rhetoric."

On the contrary, this is exactly what we should be considering. Care to comment on the quote from Tzetan Todorov above?


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:56 AM

First,


Leveller, ignore Falco. His whole post is an obvious list of deliberate provocations.


Second,


Sinsull, Leveller hhas taken a second to mark the tragedy of a man who was murdered for a crime that he may not have committed.

He was bi-polar as was confirmed by his family doctor.

He was arrested in Urumqi.

For those who live in a media free hole, Urumqi is curretly in the midst of violent political upheaval. Thousands of people have died there recently, many of them Moslems.

I suspect that Akmal Shaikah, a Bipolar Moslem, got himself into trouble while speaking his mind.

I suspect that the drugs were indeed planted.



Bubblyrat,

So we should avoid countries with the death penalty should we?

Ever been to the USA?



Back to Sinsull - Levellers point is about the death penalty.


You live in the USA.


Here's somethig you can do ... everything you can to stp your country commiting institutiionalized murder.


Bubblyrat,

"then his nearest & dearest should have prevented him from undertaking such a potentially hazardous,for one whose Mentis is not wholly Compos,expedition."

So its their fault that he is dead - thanks for that.

"if we simply MUST go there, it is MOST UNWISE to take along,whether knowingly or un-knowingly,any proscribed substances."

So it is unwise to do something when you don't know you are doing it ... hmmm ... thanks for that.

"So,what do you suggest,Mr Leveller ??"

Try reading his post.

He said "I would urge anyone who condemns this behaviour to take a few moments to ponder on this issue in support of Mr Shaikah and the thousands of others who are put to death every year by barbaric governments across the globe."


In short - reflect on a ghastly event in history.


It was perhaps unwise of Leveller write this when there are bitter hateful people out there like you who will aggressively resist any suggestion to reflect on anything.

Instead you come up with mean hearted and preposterous reasons why he deserved to die.

According to you he deserved to die because he was an Idiot and so were his family.

What a twisted cruel heart you have.


Leveller,

to get back to the point of the thread,


I too found this very sad and I too think that the death penalty is the definitive mark of barbarism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

Sinsull writes,

"Flame alert. Nothing to be accomplished here but inflammatory rhetoric."


But in fact Levellers comparison is tame.


The chinese communiist party has murdered more people than the Nazi's several times over.

The cultural revolution on its own was comparable.

In the following quote,

"I think you should consider what happened in Nazi Germany. Or perhaps you think that was OK."

Leveller asks us to "consider what happened".

Is that too hard for people to do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:13 AM

"I have no qualms about murdering drug dealers."

Well now that I am aware of your blood-lust I am in a better position to understand your position.

I anticipate your angry list of reasons why in this case it is ok to hate, destroy and be a hypocrite.

The death penalty is always hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:21 AM

Possibly,Leveller,I am older than you are ? As a child,I grew up under the umbrella of safety that our government and its laws provided for us. We all, even aged six or seven,knew that there were "naughty men " ( and some women) about,who would never dare to touch,harm,molest,or God forbid,murder us ,because they would suffer the ultimate penalty themselves. We were endlessly taught,at school,"Thou Shalt Not Kill" and "An Eye For An Eye, A Tooth For A Tooth"; a contradiction,perhaps,but even as children we could see the logic of it. We walked,played,and roamed around in the Sussex countryside,sometimes in company,sometimes alone,both by day and by night,cushioned by this safety net.
         It wasn't Utopia,and it wasn't perfect, and yes,there were some nasty incidents (but only VERY FEW),and I remember feeling both safer and comforted when Daddy said " That wicked man who killed the little girl has been hanged" ---Sadly,that's a relief that the children of today,subjected as they are to endless,drivelling,socio-political claptrap will be denied. But not in China.And that must remain the Chinese government's decision and,indeed,prerogative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:30 AM

Children still walk, roam and play in the sussex countryside Bubblyrat, and it has no bearing on the death penalty.

As for Drivel and claptrap:

Your comments excusing the chinese government for murdering Akmal Shaikah on the basis that he and his family were idiots is utter bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:32 AM

What would you like done Lox, tranfer him to a British jail for a few months of R & R, Let him hit the streets in a few months time to kill British children ? By the way he was NEVER treated for Mental illness.

China is doing all it can to make their country a world leader.
We are doing all we can to turn the UK into a third class nation.
Just look back over the last 13 years and see how they have improved.

Look back over the last 13 years and see how we have lost our position in the world rankings.
Don't knock China, we will be going to them with a begging bowl when we have turned ourselves into one big drugs ghetto.

Talk until you are blue in the face, but justice has been served.
Job well done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:39 AM

I think that you are wrong, "Lox"---It must surely be the legally unfettered and socially undetterred ,indeed almost acceptable ( by a resigned and largely apathetic Public)and certainly under- punished,actions of those who,despite knowing and recognising the consequences of their despicable,irresponsible and totally selfish criminal actions,continue to degrade the Human Condition ? Can you not see that it is the very people whom you seemingly hold in such high regard,the murderers,drug-pushers,rapists,terrorists,et al,that are THEMSELVES the definitive mark of Barbarism ??
      And your attitude is not helping !


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM

Hi Falco,

So that's your new name.

Its our resident BNP troll everyone.

As usual peddling lies.

Fortunately the truth is easy to find.

The foreign office know, the victims children know and for those who care, Falco is a Liar.


BBC Report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:42 AM

And there is no need to use words like "bollocks" either ! This is a serious subject,and does not need profanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:44 AM

If the chinese government has the right to decide when people die then so does any government.

The same rights apply to Mugabe, Pol Pot, Suharto, Idi Amin, etc etc

You can't have it both ways.

As for barbarism - yes I see murder as the definitive Mark of barbarism, and state sponsored murder as the definitive mark of a barbaric state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:50 AM

Would you care to explain your remark above Lox ?

I have no idea what you are talking about, Clearly on a substance yourself !


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:53 AM

...the Chinese do seem, by comparison with most, somewhat execution-happy...

Not when compared to Texas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:58 AM

Well, I guess you'll be dumping ,selling,or destroying ANY article,thing,artifice,device or other possession that may have been manufactured in,or had any links to, or association with, CHINA ,then ??
   You obviously feel VERY strongly about this issue,and it is the very least that you could do to reinforce your objections, I would suggest ?
    You will ,of course,furnish us with a comprehensive list of all these offending items, won't you ?
                We await your decision , Lox !


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:07 AM

GregF - that was my comment you just quoted. Note, please, that I went on to say that some MidEastern countries, and would appear comparable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM

I don't know why a central part of above post got lost - it read "some MidEastern countries & some states of the USA..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM

Thanks for the BBC link Lox, Right, I understand you now, his daughter and brother said he suffered from Mental illness (neither are doctors) in fact his G.P. NEVER treated him for Mental illness either.

Head back to your bedroom my friend and don't forget to blow the smoke out the window in case your mother smells it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:13 AM

In China it is normal to have the sentence carried out within an hour of being declared guilty. The executions often take place in groups that number in the dozens to hundreds. Organ harvesting is performed within minutes in austere conditions after the bullet destroys the convict's brain.

TO have time to repeal after conviction in China is something rarely conferred upon Chinese citizens.

On busy days one group is being executed while the next group is being found guilty within earshot of the firing squads.

These Chinese execution factories make Texas Executions look like the paragon of virtue.

I am sure you too can find the videos of Chinese Court / execution factories as I did. Beware. Once you see it you will never forget it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:17 AM

In fact tho, Donuel, I believe he received a lethal injection which is claimed to be painless — this has I gather replaced shooting in China.

I make no moral point here — I just consider always that accuracy in one's facts and information always enhances one's arguments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:19 AM

I also have Chinese friends who will corroborate everything seen in the mobile phone videos of these mass execution events in China.

So many of you here are always saying "it ain't so" or "you are always wrong".
It would serve you well to study and research before you make such egocentric conclusions.

You might learn that many executions in China are the same day but not within the hour of sentencing and argue I grossly exaggerated.
Fine, but at least you will have seen and learned for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:29 AM

I did not say you exaggerated, mistook, misled, or anything else, Donuel; so don't be so touchy. Your assertions just did not apply to the particular case under discussion in this thread; nor. according to reports on it, to the current situation in China as distinct from that which obtained in the recent past.

That's all. Cool down & live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:44 AM

Falco, you really aren't very bright are you.

Read this.

Reprieve were his legal representatives.

They claim that they had evidence that he was bipolar and the victim of a con trick.

On the basis of the evidence they showed the foreign office, they got involved.

Reading - and understanding what the words mean - is a very important skill. You should learn how.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:49 AM

not 'you' MthGM, I refer to the "Collective You"
the knee jerks, the deniers, the misinformed, the ignorant who demand to be heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM

Bubbly rat,

You seem to have forgotten the point now ... a little refresher might help you to remember that this thread is not about bashing China, but about the death penalty in general.

His execution was a crime and no amount of filibustering on your part will change that.

You would still rather attack people who point out that it is a crime or who think that the death of this man was nothing more than an act of barbarism.

Don't reflect, don't support Amnesty International, defend the murderers with cruel insults aimed at the family and divert attention away from the point at every opportunity.

That clearly makes you happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM

Oh. OK. Thank you for the clarification, Donuel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM

The defense had a cogent and sound case. The accused was afforded the maximum CHinese justice had to offer.

The message sent is, don't be so stupid as to let smugglers extort your cooperation, that being said, Chinese courts are just as harsh as most Asian countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM

the show 'Locked Up Abroad' shows many such cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:08 AM


In fact tho, Donuel, I believe he received a lethal injection which is claimed to be painless — this has I gather replaced shooting in China.


The news this morning said shooting, the current item on the BBC site says injection.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM

Twisting words now Lox, Again I will ask you to explain your earlier Bnp remark. Not really much point in presenting your case at this point as the job is done. And it's a job well done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:24 PM

Can I just make a couple of quick points here to clarify my position? Firstly, bubblyrat, I was born in 1949 and I can remember, as a child being horrified when I was told that someone had been hanged - it brought me no comfort or sense of security. I was especially upset by the Christie/Evans fiasco.

Secondly, I am not sayng that there should be no sanction against crimes such as drug smuggling. What I am saying that I cannot respect (but that does not mean urging people to break) a law that stipulates the death penalty as punishment. It has been proven, time and time again that the death penalty is not a deterrent - it is simply and act of vengeance.

Thanks, Lox, you are right in saying that I would like people to reflect on history - especially the punishments inflicted by totalitarian regimes such as the Nazis and the Soviets, particularly under Stalin. China could be regarded in the same light as these as it is the biggest totalitarian state in the world. Those of us who live in democratic countries may seek to oppose this totalitarianism. If, however, we live in a country that itself executes people, like the USA, we have no moral standpoint on which to criticise. If, for example, this had been a USA citizen, would his governement have stood up for his right to life or shrugged its shoulders and condoned the execution?

Of course I don't have all the answers - but at least I'm prepared to ask the questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM

There's got to be a strong suspicion, in the wake of the Copenhagen fiasco, that China did this cynically and deliberately, just to show that they can, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Remember that their "judicial" system is merely an extension of the state- it has no independemnce whatsoever.

We can in fact do something, but it would be hard and uncomfortable- and that's stop buying stuff from them. It will take at least 20 years of massively expensive goods to re- establish our own industries, and the Chinese would do all they can to maintain their stranglehold.

Poverty and freedom, anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 01:37 PM

According to Amnesty International, 22 countries allow the death penalty for drug offenses.
That is their decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

Strange that a forum based on folkies can include people who claim they could support murder?

Ah well, don't let them worry you. Such people would, when the chips are down, be the last to sit on a capital jury or indeed push the button / trigger / lever whatever.

So, China has shown itself yet again to be the backward disgusting mess it always has been, and no amount of skyscrapers can change that. I find it equally wrong that the Western world has seen it as an economic salvation. Sadly, they are too thick to realise the one way street of commerce they are travelling down.

Before anybody accuses me of generalising a nation, let me spell it out. Chinese society is institutionally racist, the vast majority (and I don't mean the peasants either, I include diplomats and leaders in commerce and industry) see other nations as being lower than them, and view non Chinese as a "thing" to be exploited.

So... why is anybody surprised when the puppy shits on the carpet?

I am opposed to capital punishment in all cases, even when a country's due process has been seen to be done. I find it unfortunate that American legal systems are not all out of the stone age yet, and is a stain on it's otherwise decent people. China however is not yet ready to join civilised society, despite the attempts by some of it's people. (The ones subsequently oppressed by their own government.)

The Chinese government has demanded that the British Government apologise for commenting. if Milliband has any ambition to be seen as a future leader, he has nothing to lose by upsetting them further. They need our business more than we need their cheap gadgets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:06 PM

"According to Amnesty International, 22 countries allow the death penalty for drug offenses.
That is their decision. "

But that is no reason why we should stand by and condone it. Apathy is the greatest ally of oppression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM

...oh, and, of course, homicidal nutters like Falco.


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