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BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........

Little Hawk 26 Nov 09 - 01:46 PM
pdq 26 Nov 09 - 01:53 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Nov 09 - 02:02 PM
wysiwyg 26 Nov 09 - 02:09 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 02:14 PM
Tug the Cox 26 Nov 09 - 03:30 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Nov 09 - 03:55 PM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM
gnu 26 Nov 09 - 04:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM
akenaton 26 Nov 09 - 05:03 PM
Joe Offer 26 Nov 09 - 05:13 PM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 09 - 06:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 09:39 PM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 09 - 09:56 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 10:11 PM
GUEST,999 26 Nov 09 - 10:14 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 10:16 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Nov 09 - 10:21 PM
Ed T 26 Nov 09 - 10:25 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 10:26 PM
CLETUS HARDDINGER 26 Nov 09 - 10:43 PM
Rapparee 26 Nov 09 - 10:56 PM
GUEST,999 26 Nov 09 - 11:04 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 11:11 PM
Rapparee 26 Nov 09 - 11:24 PM
GUEST,999 26 Nov 09 - 11:41 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 11:49 PM
GUEST 26 Nov 09 - 11:53 PM
Ron Davies 26 Nov 09 - 11:56 PM
Don Firth 27 Nov 09 - 01:05 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Nov 09 - 02:00 AM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 27 Nov 09 - 03:04 AM
Bryn Pugh 27 Nov 09 - 06:37 AM
HuwG 27 Nov 09 - 06:45 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 27 Nov 09 - 07:01 AM
Mysha 27 Nov 09 - 11:26 AM
Desert Dancer 27 Nov 09 - 12:01 PM
Little Hawk 27 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Nov 09 - 01:52 PM
Ed T 27 Nov 09 - 01:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Nov 09 - 02:18 PM
Little Hawk 27 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,beachcomber 27 Nov 09 - 02:34 PM
Joe Offer 27 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM
Ed T 27 Nov 09 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,beachcomber 27 Nov 09 - 04:12 PM
Little Hawk 27 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM
Joe Offer 27 Nov 09 - 11:08 PM
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Subject: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 01:46 PM

This is a public service announcement about the phrase "ex cathedra".

Many people have experienced confusion and feelings of deep humiliation when, during a debate on this forum, their wittier and more verbally sophisticated opponent (I shall name no names) accuses them of making an "ex cathedra" statement.

They don't know what it means, but they don't dare admit to their lack of knowledge! ;-)

In order to end this saddening situation that has caused pain and mental distress to so many, I am posting the definition of "ex cathedra" below. Read and become sophisticated too. Learn how to reduce other people to stunned silence by your use of this clever debating term.

Ahem!

Here we go....

In Catholic theology, the Latin phrase ex cathedra, literally meaning "from the chair", refers to a teaching by the pope that is considered to be made with the intention of invoking infallibility.

The "chair" referred to is not a literal chair, but refers metaphorically to the pope's position, or office, as the official teacher of Catholic doctrine: the chair was the symbol of the teacher in the ancient world, and bishops to this day have a cathedra, a seat or throne, as a symbol of their teaching and governing authority. The pope is said to occupy the "chair of Peter", as Catholics hold that among the apostles Peter had a special role as the preserver of unity, so the pope as successor of Peter holds the role of spokesman for the whole church among the bishops, the successors as a group of the apostles. (Also see Holy See and sede vacante: both terms evoke this seat or throne.)


Now, don't you feel great now that you know this vital bit of knowledge, just like a fully-fledged member of the intellectual elite? You will soon be able to spar with luminaries like Gore Vidal and Woody Allen without fear or trembling.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: pdq
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 01:53 PM

Glad to know the term has nothing to do with a Foley Catheter.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:02 PM

Thank you, Hawk. But as it happens I did know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:09 PM

Me too. A bit different, in Anglicanish.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:14 PM

I have no idea of whom you speak, LH, being myself only a humble seeker after knowledge. But my only goal in a current thread in which this phrase does indeed occur, is that the speaker be able to distinguish between an ex cathedra pronouncement and a political truism.   And as I mentioned, I do have every confidence that he will be able to do this--eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 03:30 PM

wittier and more verbally sophisticated opponent (I shall name no names) accuses them of making an "ex cathedra" statement.

Then they show their ignorance, for only the Pope of the time can make such a statement, which was the whole point. At a time when various people would 'pontificate' about the Church's teachings, and people would ask which one is correct, this doctrine ws dreamed up to answwer that question. An Ex cathedra pronouncement from the Pope, on what constitutes the teaching of the Chirch, is infalliblr because only he can speak 'ex cathedra'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 03:55 PM

I don't think they really or necessarily show their ignorance, Tug — surely they may know the true meaning but use the phrase allusively and figuratively, with an implied simile of "Speaking as if they were the Pope making an infallible pronouncement, implying a hyperbolical comment on the tone in which they have made their assertions. If we only spoke literally on all topics, then —


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM

There are further catch phrases beloved of the armchair intelligentsia which we should all learn as well as ex cathedra. Without them one is woefully unarmed when engaging in protracted debates such as erupt on this forum now and then....(ha! I mean...every day.)

One is "ad hominem". Be sure to point out that your despised opponent is doing nothing but engaging in ad hominem attacks and follow that up by listing his or her many disgusting character flaws and shortcomings in order to make your point quite clear. ;-)

Another is "nonsequitor". Your despised opponent, fool that he or she is, has undoubtedly posted a few remarks that simply don't follow and are not relevant to the discussion...and THOSE are the nonsequitors I was speaking of! They don't follow. Don't let them pass by without severely castigating the miscreant who committed them!

Has anybody got some more good ones?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 04:33 PM

Does the Pope piss in the woods... oh... cathedra... sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

ex cathedra has entered the vocabulary of meetings, conferences, etc. and often heads a sheet of announcements or minutes when the chairman or head of the group wishes to make a pronouncement.
Webster's Collegiate- "by virtue of or in the exercise of one's office or position (ex cathedra announcements)

There are a whole passel of these ex whatevers which always should be italicized. A few-
ex libris - from the books of ...
ex mero motu - out of mere impulse
ex animo - from the heart, sincerely
ex nihilo nihil fit - from nothing nothing is produced.
ex ungue leonum -from a part we may judge of the whole (from the claw (we may judge of) the lion.

I knew three out of five; probably average.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:03 PM

An object lesson in irony from the master, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:13 PM

I'm having a great time imagining the "armchair intelligentsia" pontificating ex cathedra.

As for the Pope pontificating, there's only one undisputed occasion when a pope spoke "ex cathedra" since the doctrine of infallibility was decreed in the 1870s. There are disputes about two other instances, including the time when John Paul II stated the Church has no authority to ordain women as priests.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:14 PM

Omigod, Q! I LOVE those other handy "ex" expressions you listed. It is time to bury our despised debating opponents under a flood of arcane Latin catchphrases, I say. William F. Buckley Jr. was really good at that sort of thing, and he obviously relished doing it to the utmost. You could see the grim glee dancing in his eyes as he dropped another devastating bon mot.

(Note: "bon mot" is another good one, as are many French phrases. Learn it now, and use it frequently.)

If we could get together a panel of really skilled armchair intelligentsia here to debate contentious matters with one another daily on streaming video, I bet it would attract a large internet audience, and we could make people pay $5 by Paypal before logging in. Think about this as a way of raising Mudcat money and improving the site.

The debate show could be called "Slings and Arrows".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

Top of the page in the Oxford English Dictionary-

When looking up a word in the Oxford English Dictionary, my eye often is caught by the word at the top of the page; usually something I have never heard, and forget soon afterward.

Opening in the A's and turning a few pages:
aggravidization
aggregable
agrass
agraunte
aimfully
alighten
allantois
allanturic
allodial

and by the time one gets to Z....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 09:39 PM

A word to the wise: make sure it's "non sequitur", not "non sequitor".   Or it's possible your opponent will correct you. You definitely lose points.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 09:56 PM

Thanks, Ron! Those little details are absolutely vital. Tremendous loss of face can occur when one doesn't get them right.

I'm surprised Amos hasn't shown up. He's awfully good at this sort of thing, and it was he who really got me accustomed to the expression "bon mot". I'd seen it before here and there, but I hadn't realized just how useful it was until Amos came along.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:11 PM

What I like about "bon mot" is that the plural is "bons mots", if I recall correctly.   Very useful--and again, essential to get right.

If I have in fact done so. And if not, something tells me it's possible I will be corrected--and not have to wait very long.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:14 PM

"'ex cathedra' - it means..........."

If you need to ask in public it means you don't know how to use Mr Google.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:16 PM

Or it means you want to start a thread, and it seems a handy springboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:21 PM

Ron — By 'a word to the wise' I take it you mean verb sap; or, indeed, verbum sapienti sap est?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:25 PM

Ex cathedra - From the chair. With authority (without argumentation)

From a good latin source:http://www.inrebus.com/latinphrases_e.php


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:26 PM

Good old verb sap.   Actually I've never heard it called that. That's classic--(no pun intended--perish the thought).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:43 PM

I dunno bout thet chair bizness an all. I seen sum uv them cathedras an all thay got iz them pews xsept for a playse whair thet guy with tha lil smokin bucket sets wen he aint bizzy with the bucket uv smoke or throwin water on tha folks inna them pews.

But I tel ya this an that iz that I do like that idea of addin hominy. I luv hominy and I aint jus talkin bout grits but also the hominy too. I like it both but I like the yeller best speshully like my mama uze ta make it whair sheed fry the hominy in the skillet after sheed fried up a buncha Spam. Now thatz reel eetin!

And gnu, idoan theenk the pope hazta piss in no woods or nuthin cuz I seen thet fine place heez got in Ittley an Ide reckun thair muzt be a bathroom or two in thair sumwhairs.


CLETUS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:56 PM

Oh, go ahead and use these phrases any way you want. Nihil obstat, but you might look like a damned fool when you use them incorrectly.

Imprimatur!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:04 PM

Too true, Rapaire. Treat not the language of unintentional obscurity with floccinoccinihilipilification lest it cometh back to bite one's gluteus minimus, medius or maximas.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:11 PM

Bingo, 999.   That's "gluteus maximus".   Proofreading pays--certainly in a posting about being accurate.   Physician, heal....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:24 PM

I'm very good at proof reading: 86 proof, 151 proof, 80 proof....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:41 PM

Jus' testin' ya, Ron, jus' testin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:49 PM

Good recovery.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:53 PM

On the internet, no one knows you're the Pope.
    Yeah, but I'm quite sure you're a Unitarian, so the pope you ain't. Your cookie needs reset, Dan.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:56 PM

But they know if you're an anonymous "Guest".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:05 AM

Expert.

From two Latin words: "Ex," meaning "has-been" and "spurt" being "a little drip under pressure."

You're welcome.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:00 AM

999 - in interests of accuracy: 'floccinaucinihil...' actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:04 AM

Please do not confuse ex-cathedra, with ex-hathedra, which is, of course, talking through your hat...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:37 AM

In faecam aeternam summus : solii profundii variat.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:45 AM

A few other fallacies to produce when in dispute:

Argument from authority A statement is true because X, an authority in that area, says so. The authority must nevertheless produce proof that the statement is true. Of course this doesn't work if the argument is "the statement is true, because this work by X displays the proof." And of course, taken to literal extremes, one cannot take anything for granted; even that one exists. Who says so?

Appeal to sentiment 99 percent of our sample believe in X. They may believe in X, but that's rather that they wish to believe in X.

Argumentum ad ignoriantiam A statement is true because no evidence exists to contradict it. Perhaps there is not; but nothing contradicts the existence of dragons, UFOs etc.

Petitio principii circular argument; the premises are true only if the conclusion is true.

Fallacious composition (or "undistributed middle term").

Socrates is a man.
All men are mortal.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Impeccable! But:

O'Brien is an Irishman.
I know some Irishmen who are belligerent drunkards.
Therefore, I wouldn't trust O'Brien near a bottle.

fails, because not all Irishmen are as described.

Fallacious division the opposite of fallacious composition; the assumption that what is true of the whole must be true of the constituents.

Joe is an American
The United States of America is a wealthy country.
Let's mug him!

Joe may be wealthy, or a down-and-out.

Ignorantio elenchi begging the question; proving a conclusion irrelevant to the discussion. I can prove that Football club A is wealthier than Football club in B, but I have not proved that A is better than B in terms of results or statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 07:01 AM

Not sure what recent spat prompted the OP (I'm assuming there was one based on other comments), but personally I take no issue with others using terms or phrases I don't necessarily already know, I just look 'em up & learn something in the process.

Plus lots of words or terms are very specific in meaning, which inevitably means it would take a whole load of other words, to make exactly the same point.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Mysha
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 11:26 AM

But what about the slings and arrows? Does that mean the protagonist from Whiskey in the Jar is called "Outrageous Fortune"?

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 12:01 PM

Only those without hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia can make use of such a term as floccinaucinihilipilification, and in polite company, in order to avoid the faux pas of disquieting someone with such a disorder, one should avoid such usage.

Of course, in a Mudcat argument, all bets are off.

~ Becky & astro in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

Well, I launched the thread mainly for fun, Crow Sister, a bit of satire and irony, that sort of thing. It was an ongoing spat between 2 other people on a thread which I was idly observing which prompted me to launch it. You know, the kind of debate that arises here where certain individuals do their utmost to bury each other under an avalanche of ever-more snide and pompous prose, utilizing devastating expressions like "ex cathedra" or "I make it a point never to fight a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent", etc....

It gets funny to watch it after awhile, so I thought I'd do a thread about it.

It is a discipline that can be honed to a fine art with enough practice, and when one attains the highest levels one becomes a Swami and receives a special sanskrit name from the Masters such as: Swami Krapilamastikrapilistikananda

It means: "bliss through character assassination"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:52 PM

The fact of the matter is....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:56 PM

If in a argument/discussion, if they use a word you don't know....simply reply with "that's exactly my point"....it should give you a couple of minutes to plan a course, while they try to figure it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:18 PM

In a similar vein- 'Your point is well-taken'. Another delaying tactic.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

Or - "That's an interesting comment....

"That's a good question....

"I'm glad you asked me that....

(the last 2 are particularly beloved of politicians) LOL! What they really meant was:

"That comment you just made sucks! It proves what a jerk you are."

"You bastard! Why'd you ask me that question? Wait while I figure out how to maneuver my way around it...."

"I wish you hadn't asked me that! Now observe as I avoid giving you a real answer."


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:34 PM

Little Hawk, I cannot believe that you USED A PREPOSITION TO END A SENTENCE WITH ??? What is happening to Mudcat at all, at all ?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM

Hy, I wanna pick a fight with those who wanna pick a fight with me about ending sentences with prepositions. I had a manager who sent back a report I wrote, criticizing my positioning of prepositions. I sent him back three pages of Fowler's Modern English Usage, justifying myself.
I guess it worked. He never bothered me about my grammar after that.

He married the woman who was the Love of My Life, but that's another story....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:20 PM

A fovvourite delaying reply of John Cleese was...."not as such"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 04:12 PM

Huh ! he probably reckoned that you were beyond redemption Joe, as I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM

You a lot of nerve have to my use of English question, beachcomber. Vexed I am. Revenge myself upon you I will. ;-)

(the above is written in Yodese dialect)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'ex cathedra' - it means...........
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 11:08 PM

Beyond redemption? Probably so - but hey, I'm proud of it. Can't fault the manager too much, though. He didn't know he was stealing my One True Love. And besides that, he gave me a pay raise that earned me $10,000 extra a year for twenty years.

-Joe-


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