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Origin: Flower of Scotland (Roy Williamson)

DigiTrad:
FLOWER OF SCOTLAND
THE FLOWER OF SCOTLAND


Related threads:
The Flower of Scotland (65)
Review: Flower of Scotland - which rendition? (19)
Lyr Req: Flower of Scotland (Roy Williamson) (25)
Lyr/Chords Req: The Flower of Scotland (17)
Flower of Scotland, official? (51)
flower of Scotland (42)
Contact for permission? Flower of Scot. (7)
Donald Dewar/Flower of Scotland (20)
Tune Req: Flower of Scotland (15)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Flower of Scotland [Roy Williamson of the Corries]


GUEST,Eddie1 03 Jan 18 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Observer 03 Jan 18 - 05:18 AM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 02 Jan 18 - 07:02 PM
JMB 02 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM
Dave Hanson 02 Jan 18 - 03:13 PM
GUEST 02 Jan 18 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Observer 02 Jan 18 - 11:58 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 18 - 09:59 AM
GUEST 02 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM
Dave Hanson 02 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Sol 02 Jan 18 - 08:42 AM
Johnny J 31 Dec 17 - 10:07 AM
Vic Smith 31 Dec 17 - 08:32 AM
kendall 29 Dec 17 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,kenny 29 Dec 17 - 02:55 PM
Jack Campin 29 Dec 17 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Gordon Price 29 Dec 17 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Hugh 09 Nov 14 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Hugh 09 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM
Jack Campin 14 Sep 08 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,red phantom 14 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,The Shieldwolf 24 Feb 08 - 06:10 AM
eddie1 09 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM
Dita 09 Dec 07 - 09:45 AM
eddie1 08 Dec 07 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,JTT 08 Dec 07 - 11:01 AM
Dita 08 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM
goatfell 08 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM
eddie1 08 Dec 07 - 07:15 AM
goatfell 08 Dec 07 - 06:50 AM
Jack Campin 07 Dec 07 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Guest 07 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM
GUEST 05 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM
GUEST 05 Apr 07 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,Chewy 04 Apr 07 - 04:12 PM
Effsee 04 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,meself 04 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM
Muttley 04 Apr 07 - 03:59 AM
Muttley 04 Apr 07 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,meself 03 Apr 07 - 07:45 PM
Muttley 03 Apr 07 - 12:49 AM
Jim Lad 02 Apr 07 - 10:35 PM
Pistachio 02 Apr 07 - 07:48 PM
Tradsinger 01 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Chewy 01 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,billy king 30 Jun 05 - 05:14 AM
RobbieWilson 30 Jun 05 - 04:21 AM
RobbieWilson 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Eddie1
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 08:17 AM

This is the most moving rendition of A Man's A Man! Love the way everyone joins in the final verse!
Another national anthem contender must be Highland Cathedral? What makes it national AND international is that it was written by two Germans! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dBQgnB2kEw and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRYzoHnbi70
Eddie


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:18 AM

Vic Smith Date: 31 Dec 17 - 08:32 AM on the linked Michael Marra ALTERNATIVE NATIONAL ANTHEM - "Hermless".

Consider some of the potential occasions it would be played and the prospect is hilarious (e.g. At the medal ceremony at the Commonwealth Games where the strains of "Hermless" is belted out as the Scottish entrant for the Heavyweight Boxing category picks up Gold - As unlikely as "Hermless" ever being considered as a contender for a national anthem)

There should be a common national anthem - Malcolm Douglas once suggested one in a bygone thread:

I dearly love my country, I love it day and night
My country it is wonderful, while all the rest are shite".


Adequately sums up the sentiments that "nationalism" espouses.

A song book entitled "Rise Again", very pleased to hear that permission for FOS to be included was not given.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:05 AM

I really like "Flower of Scotland," although perhaps not enough to want to see it as a national anthem. It's an easy song for a group to sing, and we wanted to include it in the Rise Again Songbook. The publisher wouldn't give us permission to print it. Too bad.
There were a number of songs we wanted to include, but we were refused permission.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:02 PM

The trouble is these other songs simply aren't so widely popular. I agree FOS isn't the most inspiring tune but it got to where it has through people power. Running song is good song but not a contender for anthem. Freedom is not that well known outside folk circles and people would struggle with words. I agree "A Man's A Man" would be perfect but I think most folk would probably just think "but we have an anthem"


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: JMB
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

I think a contender for the anthem could be "Hearts of Olden Glory"

There's thunder clouds
Round the hometown bay
As I walk out
In the rain
Through the sepia showers
And the photoflood days

I caught a fleeting glimpse
Of life
And though the water's
Black as night
The colours of Scotland
Leave you young inside

There must be a place
Under the sun
Where hearts of olden glory
Grow young

There's a vision
Coming soon
Through the faith
That cleans your wound
Hearts of olden glory
Will be renewed

Down the glens
Where the headlands stand
I feel a healing
Through this land
A cross for a people
Like wind through your hands

There must be a place
Under the sun
Where hearts of olden glory
Grow young

Runrig, especially the siblings Calum and Rory MacDonald who wrote the bulk of the group's materil are great ambassadors to Scotland and especially the Gaidhlig language. This song could be sung in both Gaidhlig and in English as the Scottish national anthem. I don't think the lyrics are strictly political, as lyrics such as Flower of Scotland would be.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 03:13 PM

Of course another contender would be Robert Burns' song, ' For A That '
it ends with the great lines,

It's coming yet for a that,
That man to man the world ower,
Shall brothers be for a that.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:00 PM

"Both the words and the melody make it an infinitely better song than 'Flower of Scotland'". You forgot to add, "in my opinion".
I actually happen to agree with you, but what % of the Scottish population [ a relatively low % of which know the words to "Auld Lang Syne", if recent reports are to be believed ], could quote even 1 line of "The Freedom Come All Ye". ? Not much of a basis for a national anthem, I would suggest.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 11:58 AM

Only trouble with "Freedom Come-all Ye" is that it is best performed totally pissed in as strong and as slurred a Glasgie accent as can be mustered. Mind you it would be amusing to at international sporting events to the see the mystified look demonstrating the unstated "WTF??" of those hearing it for the first time - It might also put the "All Blacks" off their Haka.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 09:59 AM

'Freedom Come All Ye' was the one song sung at the ceremonial opening of the Scottish Parliament. It could not be claimed as the national anthem because of various complicated protocol reasons to do with the 'Union', but its presence there seemed to be stating it as the de facto anthem.
Both the words and the melody make it an infinitely better song than 'Flower of Scotland'.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

One problem that nobody will state in relation to potential Scottish national anthems.. we all speak different forms of Scottish language depending on where you come from. No matter if you like or dislike 'Flower of Scotland'. it is largely easy for all Scots to pronounce the chorus words. Simplicity is needed for the masses. There are odd Scots words in the lyric. but its not as difficult for the masses to sing as other wordy efforts. Archaic Scots language that is bandied about by 'folkies and nationalists is not the common way modern people speak.   It may be relevant where some folk come from, but Inverness where I come from hardly uses all this old Scots.   It's as dead, put on and stereotyped as the anthem you are trying to replace. One of the problems of 'Scotland the Brave' though the lyrics are written by an English man it's too wordy and too much of a tongue twister for the mass population to remember, so simplicity is paramount.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM

Hamish Hendersons great song 'The Freedom Come All Ye' would be a much better choice.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM

On a radio programme many years ago Dick Gaughan said that Flower of Scotland would not be a good Scottish National anthem, it has anti English overtones, Dick thought and I agree, Hamish Hendersons great song 'The Freedom Come All Ye' would be a much better choice.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 08:42 AM

Re. Vic Smith post (2 above), Michael Marra's "Hermless" perfectly sums up the Scottish alter ego.
"We're not all Rob Roys, you know" (a poignant line from Hancock's Half Hour). Although Michael may not have intended it to be read this way, the sense of apathy in the Hermless lyrics indicates the reason why the Scots have allowed themselves to be mastered by Westminster for centuries.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Johnny J
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 10:07 AM

So far, no-one has commented that this is not a Scottish Nationalist song as stated in first post. Hijacked by Nats, yes.

While The Corries were certainly pro Independence, I'm sure Roy didn't originally intend this song to be a Nationalist anthem.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 08:32 AM

I am Scots born and love Scots songs and ballads and sing many of them. I have a particular love of the songs of Robert Burns.

I have loathed The Flower of Scotland since I first heard it in a folk club in Edinburgh sung by The Corries not long after it was written and long before it was as well known and widely sung as it is today. It seemed - and still seems - totally trite, sentimental drivel with no literary merit in the words along with pathetic macho posturing which does not represent the type of people that my Scots friends and relatives are.
As a potential national anthem it is a failure. What would you think of a country that defines itself not in its many achievements and great minds but by having the only person mentioned in the song as a centuries dead foreign king?
I was fortunate to be a friend of the man that I regard as Scotland's greatest songwriter of the 20th century, the late Michael Marra. I know that Michael hated the song as much as I did and was inspired to write an ALTERNATIVE NATIONAL ANTHEM which is to my mind is far better and more true to life as well as being hilariously funny.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 08:41 PM

In August of 1990, I did a tour of Scotland's many folk venues, and my last one was in Linn   Lithgow.. My last song of the night was Flower of Scotland, which I dedicated to the man who wrote it. There was not a dry eye in the house, not ONE. He had died recently.
For years I had two things on my "Bucket" list. standing on a beach in Dingle Ireland and sing Song for Ireland, and to stand on the top of Ben Nevis and sing Flower of Scotland. I will never be able to do Ben Nevis, but I have the memory of singing Song for Ireland.
The loss of my singing voice and my ability to play guitar, and knowing I will never sing in Ireland or Scotland again causes me almost unbearable pain.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 02:55 PM

https://youtu.be/XiyLuv3GSs4


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 12:27 PM

See my post a few messages back, 7 December 2007.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Gordon Price
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 10:30 AM

I was driving across the planes of Spain en route from Aviemore to The Algarve about 150 miles north of Seville when I turned on the local radio to listen to a program of classical music To my aamazement well into a piece of Classical music a section was played to the full tune of Flower Of Scotland, This is obviously where the melody was borrowed from.
Anyone any idea what the piece was? I was too involved in the driving to make a note of the piece


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Hugh
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 10:11 AM

It's about Esau and Jacob.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Hugh
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM

It's about overcoming tyranny and oppression and standing up to huge odds to do so. It's about protecting the small precious things in life rather than being swallowed up by imperialism and empires. Scotland, bloody hell it's a contentious family. It's about what you can do when you unite against a common enemy and how little of a United force you need to overcome tremendous odds. 5 million Scots and the country still exists and puts a thistle into its neighbour who is much larger and takes all the praise on the world stage. It's about peace and quiet and living life without being bothered by nonsense of world domination. Ahh whatever.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:20 PM

It *isn't* referring to the other song, it's just referring to the Broomielaw, which used to be an important port of embarkation, in this case for soldiers going to fight in imperial wars.

Maclean was imprisoned in 1918 and died in 1923, from illness resulting from his imprisonment.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE JOHN MACLEAN MARCH (Hamish Henderson)
From: GUEST,red phantom
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

Broomielaw is a reference to "The John Maclean March", socialist agitator from WW1. It's another Hamish Henderson penned song.



The John MacLean March
(Hamish Henderson)

Hey Mac did ye see him as ye cam in by Gorgie,
Awa ower the Lammerlaw and north o' the Tay ?
Yon man is comin' and the hale toon is turnin' oot,
We're a' sure he'll win back to Glasgow the day.

The jiners and hauders-on are marchin' fae Clydebank,
Come on noo and hear him, he'll be ower thrang tae bide.
Turn oot Jock and Jimmie, leave yer crane and yer muckle gantries
Great John Maclean's comin' back tae the Clyde.

Argyle Street and London Road's the route that we're marchin'
The lads frae the Broomielaw are here tae a man.
Hey, Neil, whaur's yer hoderums, ye big Hielan teuchter?.
Get yer pipes oot and march at the heid o'the clan!

Hallo Pat Malone, I knew you'd be here so
The red and the green we will wear side by side,
Gorbals is his the day and Glasgow belangs tae him,
Noo great John Maclean's comin' hame tae the Clyde.

Forward tae Glasgow Green we'll march in guid order,
Will grips his banner weel, that boy isna blate,
Aye there man, that's Johnny noo, that's him there, the bonnie fechter
Lenin's his fere, Mac, and Leibnecht his mate.

Tak tent when he's speakin' for they'll mind whit he said here
In Glasgow our city and the hale world beside.
Hey, man, the scarlet's bonnie, here's tae ye Hielan' Johnny!
Oor John Maclean has come hame to the Clyde.

Ah weel noo its finished, I'm awa hame tae Springburn,
Come hame tae yer tea, John, we'll soon hae ye fed!
It's hard wark the speakin', ach! I'm sure he'll be tired the nicht,
I'll lie on the flair, Mac, and gie John the bed.

The hale city's quiet noo, It kens that he's restin'
At hame wi'his Glasgow freens, their joy and their pride.
The red will be worn again and Scotland will march again,
Noo great John Maclean has come hame tae the Clyde.

Recorded by Dick Gaughan on No More Forever; by Alex Campbell on Folk
    Friends 2
Note: John Maclean was a Socialist who was jailed for anti-war activities
    in the 30's. He was released, and, reportedly, 100,000 people turned
    out in the streets of Glasgow to pay tribute to him.

I'm new to the thread but what Celtic end was saying was true, I was there from the Dundee Utd end. (another Irish catholic team, although we don't wave it from the rooftops like Celtic do.
I thought our best song that day was, while holding up the said red cards was "Denis Thatcher's Wife's a Hoor".


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,The Shieldwolf
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:10 AM

Here Here! I have been always fer the Scots Nation. And Pray that all will come again, but "Peacefully!" Trust, Faith, Happiness, Indivuality,and Freedom! returned


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: eddie1
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM

Thanks John

We're getting in to total thread creep here but Hamish was a true internationalist and nationalist. The sheer power of the man was somewthing I've never experienced from anyone else.
If Scotland does need a new national anthem then Freedom Come-all-ye is the one.

Apologies to anyone annoyed by the thread creep.

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Dita
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:45 AM

eddie1,
I don't know what Arran thinks, but I know for a fact that whether Hamish was writing about Noth Africa, Italy, South Africa, or translating Gramisi, all of his writing had Scotland at it's heart.

John


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: eddie1
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:14 PM

Sorry Arran - do you now mean it does have something to do with Scotland?

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:01 AM

Mm, Dita, and conversely:

Go bheicfeadh an lá a mbeidh ár ar Shasanaigh
Ughaim ar a ndroim is iad ag treabhadh is ag branar dúinn
Gan mise a bheith ann mura dteannam an maide leo


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Dita
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM

I think that Hamish believed, that to be a Nationalist, you had first to be an Inernationalist.


On another topic the British Anthem "God save the King/Queen", was an anti-Jacobite song written as Bonnie Prince Charlie was invading England. It has anti-Scots sentiments, and up until the Sixties appeared in hymn books in Scottish schools with the anti-Scots verse

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

John


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM

And perhaps is also about what the Scots did in Africa as well.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: eddie1
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:15 AM

Gee thanks for that Tom. Obviously I was a bit wrong in my understanding of "The Freedom Come-all-ye."

Presumably the Broomielaw referred to is on The Orange River and the Springburn where McClean meets with his friends is that well-known district in Jo'burg?

If you had stood beside me when a then 80 year-old Hamish Henderson sang that song, unaccompanied, to an audience of about 200,000 young people who had really come to hear rock and yet kept so quiet you could have heard the proverbial pin drop then you might have a different viewpoint

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 06:50 AM

Freedom Come all ye, was written by Hamish Henderson after hearing a speech by Harold McMillan when he come back from South Africa and did his 'the winds of change is blowing through Africa speech' and Hamish wrote this song as an response to that speech, so Freedom come all ye is all about Africa and has nothing to do with Scotland.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:50 PM

Incidentally the tune for "Flower of Scotland" is based on the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's opera "Nabucco". Given what that chorus is about, and its status as a pan-nationalist anthem across much of Europe in the decades after it was written, it seems quite plausible that the borrowing was intentional.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM

For me it is a pity that this song does not commemorate Wallace who is a more inspirational freedom fighter in my opinion.

Bruce's allegiences changed in a self-serving manner and he tricked his rival Comyn into a meeting under truce before murdering him at the altar of a church.

Also the English king defeated by Wallace at Stirling Bridge (Edward I) was far more deserving of the title "proud Edward" than his son Edward II who Bruce defeated at Bannockburn.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

Chewy, a C natural is a C which isn't sharpened or flattened. On the chanter it is actually a C sharp.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:37 AM

I'm sorry to disagree Chewy but if you take any pipe music book and try to play the tunes on, say a piano, then C and F are always sharp.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Chewy
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 04:12 PM

The problem with playing FoS on the pipes is that it wasn't written for that scale. The flattened 7th (I'll take your word for that by the way) can only be represented on the pipes by playing what we pipers call a C natural, basically a flattened C but not a C flat, which is of course is a B.

The C natural just sounds like you've played a bum note, it doesn't sound all that good at all, so I think most of us play a normal C because it's the lesser of the two evils. It's not their fault, it's just not a pipe tune, not a Great Highland Bagpipe tune anyway. Great song though!!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Effsee
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM

"June 23 / 24 is DEFINITELY winter!!!!"... eh?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM

"Not if he got killed there!!!!"

Some spoil-sport always has to come along and confuse the truth with facts ... Good thing I don't have my sledge handy ...


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Muttley
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 03:59 AM

Despite Stirling Castle's claim that the 8th Earl was the original 'Black Douglas' - several other sites on the web also allude to James Douglas being "The Black". James was a companion of Bruce's throughout his campaign to rid Scotland of Edward and his armies and was with him at Bannockburn. Indeed it was reportedly James who upbraided Robert after killing Henry de Bohun prior to the Battle.
The reason for the upbraiding:
Henry saw a knight sitting on a palfrey (a smaller riding horse as opposed to one of the massive warhorses / chargers knights customarily sat during battle) well away from his forces and noting only that the knight was also'sans armour' wearing only chain mail and helm - he was not, according to contemporary descriptions, even carrying a shield! De Bohun noticed also that the knight's helm had a gold 'coronet' or circlet rivetted to it. The vulnerable knight being none other than Robert himself.
Without challenge or warning, Henry lowered his lance and charged - a despicable act in that battle had not been "declared" at that stage and de Bohun issued no challenge; as he was rightly required to do prior to attacking.

Robert could not help but hear the charge of the warhorse and so faced him and drew his only weapon, a battle-axe, and calmly awaited de Bohuns lance. At the last second Bruce "danced" his palfrey out of the way, de Bohun missed with the lance, and Bruce, standing up in his stirrups, brought his battle-axe around in a two-handed blow, splitting de Bohun's head in two.

Thus after defeating de Bohun, Douglas apparently 'rounded Bruce off' for putting himself at such peril and risking everything they had achieved. Bruce's only reply was reputedly that he looked mournful and lamented that "I broke my favourite axe!!!"

However, it was apparently at that point when Bruce decided the battle would be fought on the field of Bannockburn. Prior to this he was contemplating other ground. After such a decisive victory in his single-combat he decided the Lord had decreed "This is the Place" and so he arranged his troops on the higher ground and forced Edward to advance his troops across the face of the "Carse of Bannock Burn". A 'carse' is an area of ground braided by streams which is (usually) wet and boggy in winter and early spring, but hard and dry in summer. June 23 / 24 is DEFINITELY winter!!!!

Robert then using speed and versatility and the ability to quickly reposition his smaller army to advantage, attacked and broke the English Army of 20,000 men (Bruce commanded about a third that number) driving them into the carse where thousands were annihilated. It was said that the deeply boggy carse was so thickly carpeted with English bodies that its several hundred yards of expanse could be traversed dry-footed by stepping on the bodies of slain and smothered English soldiers.

In a way it was a little like the way that Wallace defeated Edward's father's (Edward Longshanks)army at the Battle of Stirling Bridge. Trapping them and annihilating the heaviest elements - the cavalry.

It was a lesson that the English took to heart as they employed a similar tactic at Agincourt, where the French knights were forced to attack across boggy, muddy ground and lost their advantage by the heaviness of the ground and being bottle-necked in their charge towards the English lines. The English archers therefore picked off the horses as much as the knights and then dropping their bows, they waded in and wearing only light gear and employing nasty lead 'sledges', they proceeded to brain anu live fallen knights and any still a-horse were rendered ineffective and and dragged to earth and sledged to death.

Muttley


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Muttley
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 03:25 AM

Not if he got killed there!!!!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:45 PM

Perhaps the Crusading Earl came back from Spain with one heck of a suntan, and was thus for a season, "The Black" ...


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Muttley
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:49 AM

Hrothgar; It was said that, though the Douglas was killed in that Crusade; one of his kin fought his way through the Moors and retrieved the casket Douglas hurled and carried it home to Melrose.

However, whether THAT Douglas was, indeed, "The Black Douglas" is open to debate.

There may have been several and, in fact the head of the clan may also have inherited the soubriquet along with the title of Earl - but it is unlikely that the one who hurled Bruce's heart was one of them

I will explain my reasoning:

Following is a precis of some information I picked up while touring Stirling Castle in late '05.

The garden which lies at the western end of "The King's Old Building" is known as 'The Douglas Garden' or 'The Black Douglas Garden'. It was onto this patch of ground that the body of William, the 8th Earl of Douglas was hurled in 1452 after having died at the hands of James II for refusing to break alliances James felt to be "against Royal Interests".
Apparently THIS Earl of Douglas was said to have been the type of personality who could offend one simply by riding past the end of their street - he was according to tradition "the most objectionable, haughty and arrogant man in the realm".
Records have it that James asked him to comply and he, typically and arrogantly refused and proceeded to upbraid his king, who thereupon "ripped him from navel to throat wi' his dirk". Other courtiers joined in and the luckless Earl's body was then tossed to the ground from a convenient window of the building which preceeded the "King's Old Building" on that site. Where he landed is now the "Douglas / Black Douglas Garden". This 8th Earl was aid to be the first referred to as "The Black Douglas"; apparently because of his objectionable personality.

So, given that the Douglas who attended the Crusade against the Moors in Spain did so in the early 1330's following The Bruce's death in 1329 while the latter, 8th Earl, was murdered about 120 years and 4 kings later and was the first (reputedly) to be referred to as "The Black" - it's unlikely the Crusading Earl was also The Black Douglas.

Muttley


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:35 PM

That was quite the day. 1989 or 90. Roy Williamson was seriously ill at the time.
The particular note, which was the first thing i noticed when I first heard the song, doesn't exist on the chanter. Sounds awful the way the pipers play it and I think that is what drives people to sing it differently.
Does that make any sense at all?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Pistachio
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:48 PM

You are correct...I notice the flaw all the time. Not being a musician I couldn't explain the flattened seventh but being a Scot and Corries fan I always sing it that way unless I get drowned out by those joining in!
Reading through the thread I can well remember the magnificent sound of 65000 voices at Murrayfield, mine was one of them.
H.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Tradsinger
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM

Am I right in thinking that the last phrase of the song should have a flattened seventh on the word 'think', thus giving the tune a mixolydian flavour? If so, then it is always sung 'wrong' at rugby matches. Grates with me.

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Chewy
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

I don't know if anyone will ever see this as the thread goes back to 1999.

Firstly, ignore that last post from that bigoted muppet, the sash indeed. If you had half a brain you'd be dangerous. 1960s? The Flower of Scotland dates back to 1314 ye clown.

More importantly, I'd like to correct a serious mistake that so many people seem to make when singing this song. The lyrics in the 3rd verse are as follows

"for we can still rise now, and be THE nation again that stood against him"

It is not "a nation again". Anyone who tries to tell you differently plainly doesn't have a clue what they're talking about and has never seen the lyrics as written by Roy Williamson.

Scotland is already a nation, it's just that we've lost our way a little, and we need to show the same passion that led us to independence in the 14th century. That's what that line is about!!!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,billy king
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:14 AM

ach....never mind flower of scotland, it only goes back to the 1960's
Give us a real Scottish trad song........like "The Sash!"


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:21 AM

Always good to see a bit of reasoned comment.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 AM

Cuilionn, couldn't agree more.
Robbie


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