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BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism

Paul Burke 14 Nov 09 - 03:41 AM
Penny S. 14 Nov 09 - 09:09 AM
Mr Happy 14 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM
Penny S. 14 Nov 09 - 09:20 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 14 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM
robomatic 14 Nov 09 - 01:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM
Bonzo3legs 14 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM
Smokey. 14 Nov 09 - 06:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Nov 09 - 07:19 PM
Leadfingers 14 Nov 09 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,EricTheOrange 14 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,bert 14 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 09 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,EricTheOrange 15 Nov 09 - 04:38 AM
ard mhacha 15 Nov 09 - 06:32 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Nov 09 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 09 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 09 - 08:38 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 15 Nov 09 - 08:45 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Nov 09 - 08:46 AM
Mrs.Duck 15 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM
VirginiaTam 15 Nov 09 - 09:01 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 09 - 06:59 PM
Rowan 15 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,999 15 Nov 09 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,999 15 Nov 09 - 10:03 PM
meself 15 Nov 09 - 11:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 09 - 04:22 AM
freda underhill 16 Nov 09 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM
Rowan 16 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 09 - 06:18 PM
Rowan 16 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM
Royston 16 Nov 09 - 06:50 PM
Old Vermin 16 Nov 09 - 07:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Nov 09 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,999 16 Nov 09 - 07:59 PM
Mr Happy 17 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM
meself 17 Nov 09 - 02:23 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM
meself 17 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 09 - 12:18 AM
meself 18 Nov 09 - 02:07 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 09 - 02:18 AM
Joe Offer 18 Nov 09 - 03:04 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Nov 09 - 05:43 AM
Penny S. 18 Nov 09 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,KP 18 Nov 09 - 07:31 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Nov 09 - 10:29 AM
Paul Burke 04 Dec 09 - 06:09 PM
ard mhacha 09 Dec 09 - 01:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Dec 09 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,KP 10 Dec 09 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 10 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,ollaimh 10 Dec 09 - 02:51 PM
ard mhacha 11 Dec 09 - 04:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Dec 09 - 05:28 AM
Jack Campin 11 Dec 09 - 11:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Dec 09 - 01:14 PM
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ollaimh 14 Dec 09 - 02:02 PM
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Subject: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:41 AM

Guardian (UK) report

A scout troop is being investigated by the police after its members shouted death threats and racist abuse at Jewish war veterans during a remembrance parade.

Dressed in full uniform, the explorer scouts, who were taking part in Remembrance Sunday service in Romford, Essex were heard to repeatedly shout "Let's kill the Jews" at Jewish second world war veterans.

The head of the scouts in the area has issued a full apology for the incident, which was witnessed by a senior policeman standing a few feet away.

A Metropolitan police spokesman said the Met was investigating two allegations of "racially aggravated harassment" involving more than one member of the Romford explorer scout unit. He would not say how many scouts were involved.

The Rev Lee Sunderland, who was taking part in the service, expressed shock after hearing the scouts shout: "Here come the Jews, let's kill the Jews."

Other witnesses said the racists chants were started by a boy believed to be 15 years old.


Remembrance is not just about wearing a poppy four "our boys". It's something we must do 365 days a year, in our hearts, not one day a year on our lapels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:09 AM

On the Radio 4 Today programme, the Scouts said that the boys would not be expelled, but would have to visit the synagogue to apologise. I think something more is needed. There is something very odd about the way those who did not start it felt it right to join in, so i would be concerned about the ethos of the group in matters other than antisemitism.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM

aka Young BNP?

http://www.s230707592.websitehome.co.uk/romexp/


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:20 AM

Meanwhile, Swanley British Legion had to abandon their usual parish church for the Remembrance Service and have a Drum Head service in the local function rooms because the new vicar would not, as the previous incumbent had, allow the Legion chaplain, a vicar from a nearby village church to officiate in "his" church.

And what was this chaplain's offence?

She lacked the requisite Y chromosome.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" -G. Santayana

"When will they ever learn?" -Peter Seeger

"Those who remember the past learn to do it better the next time, generally not in a good way" -JotSC, a very pessimistic old man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:27 PM

I'm tempted to make some dumb commment about cute little brown shirts but it could just be incredibly young kids sayin' the first incredibly dumb thing that could come out of their mouths.

bright people do dumb stuff and dumb itself knows no low.

The only hope is that even the dumb can learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM

The story is shocking, but scouting from its inception has been about fostering brotherhood and equality across class, racial and religious divides.
In Victorian England, those ideals were radical indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

Well, they were in Essex of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:00 PM

They should have their woggles removed.

But seriously, it sounds as though a bit of education wouldn't go amiss..


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:19 PM

Pedantic note - Scouts date from Edwardian England, not Victorian.

Maybe the teenager(s) involved was/were trying to be "edgy", which is widely seen as a good thing to be, and appears to be regarded as excusing just about anything when the professionals to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:45 PM

When I was a Scout (Back in The Good Old Days) The Man would have had serious words if any of US had come out with anything like that .
It certainly would NOT have happened twice !


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM

scouting from its inception has been about fostering brotherhood and equality across...religious divides

Scouting to this day actually practices some discrimination upon religious grounds. Those of non-theistic beliefs like atheists, taoists, buddhists, unitarians, humanists, pantheists etc are technically and often in practice barred from occupying certain roles because the rules require a belief & duty to God. It's also pretty dodgy with regard to the oath that the kids take if they're from non-theist traditions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,bert
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM

scouting from its inception has been about fostering brotherhood and equality...

Scouting from it's inception was an attempt by Baden-Powell to instill some military training in young kids before they went in the army in WWI. That's why they do all that marching in parades.

My personal experience of the scouts is that they are aloof and cliquey and in my last dealing with a scoutmaster, outright dishonest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:23 AM

They do not do all that marching.
Watch and you will see they do it badly because drill and military skills form no part of scouting.
BP did not forsee the problem with atheists, but making all religions of equal worth was a quantum leap in Edwardian (thanks Kevin) England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:38 AM

BP did not forsee the problem with atheists

Fair enough but the scouts have had plenty of opportunity since BP to address the issue. Given that they haven't, and given some more recent pushes to oust non-theist (important to note that this doesn't just apply to atheists!) leaders, I think says a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:32 AM

Remember, Baden Powell the man who founded the Boy Scouts also was responsible fot the first concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War,


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:58 AM

Anyhow, what's with Essex. I have never understood why it has become such a byword for yobbery & brainless females. Some of its urban bits are less than exquisite, but that applies to many inner-city landscapes. And there are some beautiful bits of countryside & lovely little country towns - like Thetford, venue of so much Morris Ring activity. Get off Essex's back, that's what I say — the joke is wearing very thin.

PS I don't live there, I live over the border in Cambridgeshire, so I have no axe to grind here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:29 AM

Andrew Marks, chair of the National Jewish Scout Fellowship, said: "We have never experienced or come across any antisemitism in the scout movement and we have been shocked and astonished by this.

"We believe this is an isolated incident by a boy who has said some things which were totally deplorable and disgusting but there needs to be a modicum of understand that this is an isolated incident."

Simon Carter, of the Scout Association, said: "Scouting is an international movement with over 30 million youth members and works for peace in nearly every country in the world.


"The understanding and valuing of their faith and the faith of others is one of the core principles of scouting.


"We do this by providing practical activities, opportunities to work in teams, learning by doing and getting young people to think for themselves.


"As scouts, we promise to do our duty and to help other people. Clearly this child has not lived up to this promise.


"Our role as adults in scouting is to work with this child and to challenge them in this area of their thinking.


"All members of the scout unit are aware of the seriousness of the incident and are aware that such behaviour has no place in scouting or society at large."


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:38 AM

My turn to be pedantic.
Thetford is a long way from Essex, being in Suffolk and almost Norfolk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM

Well, they were in Essex of course!

Typical comment from middle class ponces who don't like the working class to get ideas above their station.

Just a working class joke - remember Tricky Dicky??

good evening, i'm from essex
in case you couldn't tell (l pronounced as w)
my given name is dickie,
i come from billericay
and i'm doing very well (l pronounced as w)

It's the home of perhaps some of the most ill spoken chavs outside Croydon!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM

Sorry, Keith — I meant Thaxted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM

I meant Billericay Dickie of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:45 AM

He means Thaxted in Essex I think? Soundsabitalike.
There are some beautiful picturesque villages in Essex (mainly North Essex, closer to the Suffolk border), there's also really unpleasant towns like Romford closer to London, that tend to have lots of BNP sympathy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:46 AM

Never, tho, let us forget the delightful Dagenham Girl Pipers, whom I always greatly admired.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM

I was once asked to join the Dagenham girl pipers but declined because it clashed with hockey!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:01 AM

I recently did a bit of research about and for a Boys Club in unnamed town in Essex and discovered it had no members of colour.

There is a fair amount of yobbery in some Kent towns I have visited. Come to think of it, saw it in Cornwall and Edinburgh and Stirling Scotland as well. Don't think it is regional by any stretch of the imagination. I think it is generational.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM

Generational - yes that's right, it's their strange way of speaking too, voice going up at the end of every sentence, not that they teach what a sentence is any more at schools!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

I think it is generational.

The actions on one or two teenagers, outragous though they were, doesn't mean that all young people, or all Scouts for that matter, should be tarred with the same brush. The fact is that, throughout the country, Scouts, Guides, Boys Brigade, Army Cadets, Air Cadets, Sea Cadets and other youth groups were out in public on a November Sunday morning taking an active part in Remembrance parades when many adults were tucked up safely at home with their minds on other things.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:59 PM

The British did indeed set up concentration camps for Boer civilians, and an estimated 26,000 interned women and children died in them. (And an estimated 14,000 Africans died in separate camps.) But I've never heard Baden-Powell was involved in that.

Incidentally, the first "reconcentrados" were set up by General Valeriano Weyler in Cuba in 1895.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM

Incidentally, the first "reconcentrados" were set up by General Valeriano Weyler in Cuba in 1895.
Although a different name was given to their precursor equivalents during the American Civil War/ War between the States/ Aggression from the North/ the Late Unpleasantness.

But I don't think Baden Powell was involved with them, either. By the turn of the century he was, apparently, a bit preoccupied with cross-dressing for Tea Dances on Sunday afternoons; truly a multitalented polymath, like many Edwardians.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:57 PM

This wasn't a vacation camp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 10:03 PM

A picture of a living inmate at Andersonville Prison in 1865.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:14 PM

So was it one boy who yelled, or was it boys 'chanting'? There seems to be some discrepancy (surprise, surprise) in the accounts.

I would wonder if this wasn't one of those instances of a group of boys getting so caught up in a kind of hysteria of humour at some 'in-joke' that the 'outside world' - the world outside their little clique, that outside world that could not possibly be clever enough to appreciate the many levels of irony their humour entails - loses all validity, such that the usual social restraints become, for a euphoric moment, meaningless. For that moment, only the esoterically humorous remark or pose has any value .... I would hope that that is the case, rather than that the incident was an actual instance of anti-semitism. Wishful thinking on my part, perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:22 AM

There are 30 million scouts, mainly teenagers, and yet how often do you hear of any problems?
This is the only bad news story about scouts I have EVER come across.
Scouting has been only a force for good in the world.
This one story brings out people on Mudcat who link it with concentration camps, accuse it of militarising youth, and persecuting atheists!
Scouting would be missed more than Mudcat I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:44 AM

This isn't the only bad news story about the Scouts, unfortunately. Sentencing for scout master paedophiles . If you check Baden-Powell in google, there are a number of articles alleging that he was a paedophile, and many say the Scouts have been infiltrated by paedopphiles over the years.

Today, an Australian politician, Family First senator Steve Fielding told how he was sexually abused as a child, for some years by a scoutmaster. He said his heart went out to anyone with a similar experience. I have a friend (also working in politics, different party) who was also sexually abused by a scoutmaster.

I know the scouts have done many good things, and those who didn't experience abuse are lucky. But not all scouts were lucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM

Many say that schools have been infiltrated by paedophiles.
Nearly every week I read about a teacher who has been sacked for inappropriate sexual behaviour.
So schools are a bad thing.

There is no evidence at all that BP was a paedophle, but who knows what he got up to in his concentration camps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM

This one story brings out people on Mudcat who link it with concentration camps, accuse it of militarising youth, and persecuting atheists!

I'm sure you're aware, Keith, that one of the consequences of a movement as successful as Scouts (under their various nomenclatures) is that the movement affects and is affected by the whole gamut of what goes on in the world.

His southern African experiences formed his view that Britain's youth was not up to maintaining the expectations that came with British notions that their people (and, specifically, the English) were the pinnacle of human development and abilities. So he started the Scouts along paramilitary lines for essentially paramilitary purposes. At the time (and for the next 30 years or so) this was par for the course; because it was (initially) English this was seen as "good" and even when Hitler used the same ideas and practices for the same purposes it was seen as "more or less acceptable".

Baden-Powell was an exceptional product of his time as was the Scouting movement; times have changed, we've changed and Scouting has changed. We hope that all three have changed for the better, because we can all identify faults in all three as we go back into history. The behaviour of the scouts described in the OP is appalling and unacceptable, even though it might have been the consequence of something as minor as a misconstrued sense of humour. The fact that it is unusual should be a comfort to you (and us as well?) and is almost certainly the reason it got onto Mudcat.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:18 PM

"more or less acceptable" The implication of that quote is that it was Baden-Powell saying that. Is that correct?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM

It wasn't an implication I intended, McGrath; it's my understanding of how the Hitler Youth were regarded, in their early days, by society at large. The various cross-cultural understandings of single and double quotation marks led me astray; I should have used singles for both.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Royston
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:50 PM

This incident tells us nothing about the Scouting Movement; an institution that formed my socialist outlook on life.

It tells us a lot about the consequences - expected or unexpected - about giving publicity to Nick Griffin and the BNP, about normalising fascism, about hyping immigration and the dangers of immigration.

It shows us how giving an inch of ground to these evil and poisonous people and their vicious and poisonous views, perpetuates a cycle of evil and prejudice that starts with abusive boy scouts and ends in gas chambers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Old Vermin
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:08 PM

Scouts are drawn from and mostly reflect the local community. We were lucky. Our boys joined what was probably the best local troop in our bit of Surrey and then Venture unit. Run by people who were thoughtful and kind - mostly - and with a fairly strong sense of humour. The boys and girls were mostly of the same type. Meeting some of the other local troops, it was evident that they were not all that nice or that bright.

Such is life. And I shudder to think of the consternation at Baden-Powell House. The Romford behaviour showed an attitude well outside the Scout's ethos, never mind the behaviour.

"A Scout is kind to all in thought, word and deed" If I remember rightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:37 PM

""Scouting would be missed more than Mudcat I think.""

While I agreee that an isolated incident is NOT indicative of the quality and morality of the Scout movement, I find myself wondering....

Wondering why you have such a poor opinion of the Mudcat community, and given that opinion, WHY are you here?

Mind you, that is a question that has been puzzling me for some time, considering your totally negative attitude to your fellow members.

Don T.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:59 PM

IMO, very well said, Royston.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM

Another story here http://www.allvoices.com/news/4583628-nazi-symbols-probe-wearing



of inappropriate symbolism


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Hitler didn't like the Scouts. In fact he outlawed the German Scouting Movement, and set up the Hitler Youth along rather different lines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:23 PM

I always knew Hitler wasn't all bad.




(Just kidding, folks, just kidding - lighten up, wouldja!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM

Well OK, Meself - but ya-no there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

With regard to the Scouts who were shouting at Jews, I note that the one thing nobody does is ask them 'What was that all about?'

Maybe they thought they were being funny. Maybe somebody has been feeding them lies. Maybe something else.

I'll tell you one thing - if it were my son, I'd be checking his room, etc, for drugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

"there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!"

And this is something I have done?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM

A photo of Polish boy scouts fighting in the Warsaw Uprising


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 12:18 AM

"there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!"

And this is something I have done? -- [Meself]·····
·····
.....
You know best, Meself — but you must admit your last self-exculpatory 'only-kidding' tailpiece to your last post suggested you to be aware of something of the sort, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:07 AM

I don't know what your game is, but I'm not interested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:18 AM

No 'game' — you miss my point; but let it pass, it's honestly not worth getting agitated about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:04 AM

I was registered with the Boy Scouts USA for about thirty years, including ten years as a Cubmster, leader of a Cub Scout pack. I dropped my membership in about 1992, partly because the US Scouts seemed too closely allied with conservative issues - chiefly their opposition to homosexuality and atheism, but also the general atmosphere seemed to favor the military and guns and such. I also thought they were influenced too strongly by the Mormons, at least in the Western US. I think the Girl Scouts in the US have done a far better job of keeping out of political alliances.

On the other hand, I had lots of good experiences with the Scouts, and found it to be one of the few places where American boys can sing without embarrassment. And I was pleased to find out that the Chief Executive of the Boy Scouts in the US is a man I once knew quite well.

But no, I can't believe the Boy Scout organization in the US or the UK, would have anything to do with supporting antisemitism. The incident reported is clearly an aberration, and the organization should not be condemned for the actions of a few of its teenage members.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:43 AM

Hands up those who never did anything stupid when they were teenagers.......................

Mmmmm, thought not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:24 AM

This is worse than normal teenage stupidity, because the boys will have been taught about what Hitler's Germany did in school. It was not done in ignorance.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:31 AM

Action has been taken by the local Scout hierarchy.
It was one scout who caused the incident and he will be apologizing to the Rabbi in question.

See discussion (and the action taken) on this thread:

Escouts forum

KP
(Folkie and UK Cub Leader)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:29 AM

"This is worse than normal teenage stupidity, because the boys will have been taught about what Hitler's Germany did in school. It was not done in ignorance."

Precisely the point Penny, knowledge that it's wrong is what makes the act of stupidity so attractive to those who behave that way. I remember very clearly how, in my very early teens in the early '60s, and as one of a gang of school-mates, I used to shout about how wonderful the Gestapo were, and what a fine chap Adolf Hitler had been. All this whilst surrounded by people who had only a few years earlier gone through the six horrendous years of WW2. I knew it was bollocks and I knew I was behaving like an arsehole, but it felt so.....clever.......edgy.....dangerous.

Thankfully, I grew up.

I'm sure those scouts have realised it was an arsehole thing to do and, like I did, they probably feel pretty crappy about it now. I hope so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:09 PM

Perehaps an explanation, almost innocent? The perpetrator may have been innocent if stupid:

The excellent Hugh Muir in the Guardian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:02 PM

As Corporal Jones in DaDs Army would have said," Lord Kitchener gave the fuzzy wuzzys a fair trail and then he executed them", looks like old Baden had the same idea.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/8403956.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM

How many POWs did PIRA illegally execute Ard?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

Further to Hugh Muir's suggested explanation, as pointed to by Paul Burke: "Achmed The Dead terrorist"


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:41 AM

It does seem likely that the boy was just repeating Ahmed's catch phrase.
The answer to how many POWs PIRA murdered is, I think, all of them, usually after the most horrific, medieval torture.
That did not stop PIRA starting Republican youth movements, or a senior officer becoming Minister of Education.
No posts from Ard Mhacha about any of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:45 AM

Ard,
Baden-Powell's views and writings did, though, seem to change over the years:

These quotes are from 'Imperialism and Popular Culture' by John M MacKenzie which you can find on Google books

'Baden-Powell consistently preached in favour of social and racial harmony and inveighed against class and colour prejudice....As the Scout movement extended throughout the empire he found no difficulty in enlarging his fourth law for Scouts to: A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout, no matter to what country class or creed the other may belong'

'In the middle of the Great War Baden Powell declined to be associated with a pressure group led by the Dean of Lincoln and Lord Sydenham (the latter a keen supporter of military training for the young) in their attempts to encourage the teaching of patriotic values'

'By the time of Baden Powell's death in 1941 the imperial element within Scouting and Guiding had been totally transformed...the two movements saw themselves as helping the individual nations of the Commonwealth to achieve a domestic multi-racial coherence..'

This article is also interesting in that it dispels somewhat the image of Baden Powell as a Victorian reactionary. It has him quoting Montessori for example.

Baden Powell as an Educational Innovator
cheers
KP


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM

The history and heritage of scouting is not an issue here. My lads were both scouts and I used to help out. Not as a scout leader but helped out with camps, fund raising etc.

If I were to think this particular group had any religious connection, I would have dissuaded my boys from being members, but to my knowledge, none of the leaders had any religious motives and no prayers were said. In fact, the only link with the church was the remembrance Sunday parade.

This story is about a child who wanted to upset people. It is something kids do at a certain age. Some more than others... Error of ways dealt with and now sorted.

Regarding Baden Powell;

I was about to mention the story about executing a prisoner of war and it all being hushed up, but I have been beaten to it. Read the link if you haven't done so yet, it is rather disturbing but also normal for the time and age in question.

Baden Powell wrote a book called "Pig sticking - A joy for life." Says it all really.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:51 PM

how many millions of irish died because of the british empire? get real


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:55 AM

Poor Keith always gets it wrong, if the Irish were seeking revenge for past wrongs this would prove to be an impossible task. Even an inkling of Englands role in Ireland would convince the most pig-headed British Empire lover of the countless thousands that were murdered here over the centuries, making the task never-ending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 05:28 AM

It would be great to have another chat about Irish history, but not in a thread about scouts!
Ard criticised an alleged action of BP, and I contrasted it with the actions of a group he has previously expressed sympathy with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:59 AM

Baden Powell wrote a book called "Pig sticking - A joy for life." Says it all really.....

"Pigsticking: A Joy for Life" was by William Rushton, and isn't the sort of book you think it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:14 PM

William Rushton, Baden-Powell - these pedantic distinctions some people feel called on to make...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

Yes, Willie Rushton did call his book "Pig Sticking - A Joy for Life."

Try reading it...

He stated in the introduction that he called the book by that name because Baden Powell called a book by similar...

Where the hell do you think I got that snippet in the first place???

(By studing the Baden Powell book?)

Rushton was a bit of a hero of mine. Even got pissed with him once, by way of name dropping


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 06:30 AM

This is the Baden Powell book
Pig-Sticking or Hog hunting

KP


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 07:46 AM

Says it all?
Says what?
There were few (any?) oponents of hunting in those times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM

Not so, Keith!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 10:14 AM

I love the objectivity and impartiality that you get from the usual suspects here on Mudcat.

Ard provided us with a link the contents of which stated that papers were auctioned recently "that suggest that BP may have done something".

Ard immediately translates that to papers were auctioned recently that state BP definitely did murder a POW.

Now read one and then read the other if you come to the same conclusion as Ard without knowing the full facts of the case then you are obviously as bigotted as he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 10:17 AM

And again, Baden Powell's own views changed over the years:

'A Scout/Guide should save animals as far as possible from pain, and should not kill any animal unnecessarily, not even the smallest of God's creatures.'

'By continually watching animals in their natural state one gets to like them too well to shoot them. The whole sport of hunting animals lies in the woodcraft of stalking them, not in the killing.'

'An animal has been made by God just as you have been. He is therefore a fellowcreature. He has not the power of speaking our language, but can feel pleasure or pain just as we can, and he can feel grateful to anyone who is kind to him. A Scout is always helpful to people who are crippled or blind or deaf and dumb; so he is good also to these dumb fellow-creatures of ours.'

Quoted here:
Baden Powell Quotes


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 02:02 PM

baden powel started the scouts because they found that the young military recruits were not phuscially up to the traditional standards of fitness and health that had existed before the peak of the industrial revolution. powell wrote about this hinself as his reason.

it was a paramilitary organization to equip young men to participate in the empire. no one then much thought there w anything wrong about the empire except the oppressed people of the empire ad no one listened to them, and few do now . the old empire didn't keep records of the dead among the nations they were invading and the americans don't count iraqi dead, as they stopped counting vietnemese dead. the empie lives on.

the boyscouts ar an inherently far right organization. many have fun and learn skills as many did in the hitler youth and the red guards. they were to serve the objctives of empire when there was almost no effictive rsistance.

the accuse the pira of turture is the racism i have come to expect from scout defenders. there are no insicentd of the pira taking british soldiers prisoners and none of them torturing them. what he meant was the pira are meanies. well all armed men are meanies to someone.

whilest the uk government stands cobvicted of torture in the european human rights commission and the european high court of justice. and all the while the apologists for empire--and they are still many as the uk continues to try to piggy back on the american empire--continue to posture as self righteous because those pesky irish(and i'm notirish by the way) are so much worse.

the irish holocoust was a manufactured famines and mass deportation. all the time of the famine there was about three times the food needed to feed the people of ireland being exported to the continent by farm owner by the newcomer british. those farms were acquired by military force. the government refused to feed the people because of capitalist beliefs. so millons starved or were displaced.

no englishman should be posturing as morally superios over ireland. their army tortured and continues to torture there. the pira fight them00and i wouldn;t --but they are like any resistance movement and there is no proof of them torturing their enemies. they don't even take prisoners. they do kill their own traitors within. every army does. they may do it in an evil way but they are not an elected government doing it. the elected government of the uk participated in the holocoust and the continuous torture. i didn;t get off topic but the selfrighteus git who decide the pira is bad so all he says must be morally superior.

really grow up. the british empre was an evil force for most of those occupied by it and the clinging to the ideology that it was good and moral is the root of most english excusses for abuse now.the scouts werepart and parcel of the british imperial sustem


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM

Have you ever visited part of the ex-empire/commonwealth/whatever, ollaimh. I found not a single person of middle-age or over in Sierra Leone where I spent some time 20 years ago who didn't long for the pre-"independence" days back. & that was just before the gr8 hands·cut·off civil-war which turned the country into the hell-on-earth of sub-Saharan Africa for all those years - probably to this day...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 05:48 PM

ollaimh any chance of putting that crap to music?

Then the world could have yet another Whinging Irish Ballad based on fairy tales.

Although quite frankly it needs another one of those like somebody needs another hole in the head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ollaimh
Date: 20 May 10 - 10:22 AM

the conviction of the british government for torture was published in the economist and many other mainstream journals. the thing that bothers me is the inherent ignorant racism spouted by so many english people on mud cat. we were talking about boy scouts then keith from hertforshire said basically that nay critic must be ira. what nonsense.

the boy scouts are a partially publica;;y created and fundied organization. the ira are underground and i doubt any member are on muscat. people whop vote for governments that support imperialist ventures do take personal responsibility for those ventures and the deaths and suffering caused. people who are gaels are not all responsible for the actions of an underground group. on that stamdard all englishpeople are responsible for the atrocities of the ulster paramilitary organizations.

if you stop throwing stones based on old grudges others will stop responding


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 10 - 12:45 PM

That was last year, ollaimh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:20 AM

Does anyone else find it hilariously ironic that, nearly half a year after the last post, someone would write if you stop throwing stones based on old grudges others will stop responding

Probably just me!

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:57 PM

He's got nothing to do perhaps!


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