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Searching Staff....Is this right?

Folkiedave 12 Nov 09 - 06:04 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Nov 09 - 05:39 PM
Gervase 12 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM
Folkiedave 12 Nov 09 - 03:28 PM
GREEN WELLIES 12 Nov 09 - 12:01 PM
SINSULL 12 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Nov 09 - 11:46 AM
GREEN WELLIES 12 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM
manitas_at_work 12 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM
SINSULL 12 Nov 09 - 10:53 AM
manitas_at_work 12 Nov 09 - 10:52 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Nov 09 - 10:50 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Nov 09 - 10:44 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Nov 09 - 10:36 AM
GREEN WELLIES 12 Nov 09 - 10:16 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Nov 09 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 12 Nov 09 - 05:12 AM
GREEN WELLIES 12 Nov 09 - 04:25 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Nov 09 - 01:53 AM
Ruth Archer 11 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 09 - 06:44 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Nov 09 - 04:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 09 - 12:41 PM
Folkiedave 11 Nov 09 - 05:25 AM
GREEN WELLIES 11 Nov 09 - 05:02 AM
Gervase 11 Nov 09 - 04:39 AM
GREEN WELLIES 11 Nov 09 - 03:27 AM
Folkiedave 10 Nov 09 - 06:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 09 - 05:57 PM
GREEN WELLIES 10 Nov 09 - 05:34 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM
Folkiedave 10 Nov 09 - 03:33 AM
GREEN WELLIES 09 Nov 09 - 09:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 09 - 09:08 AM
Folkiedave 09 Nov 09 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Mike 09 Nov 09 - 08:26 AM
Folkiedave 09 Nov 09 - 06:48 AM
GREEN WELLIES 08 Nov 09 - 05:18 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 09 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Dr. Fraud 08 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 08 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 09 - 06:38 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 08 Nov 09 - 04:38 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 09 - 04:25 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 09 - 04:16 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 08 Nov 09 - 04:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 06:04 PM

No problem, Crow Sister. It can be awkward to read through a thread, no-one knows better than me :-)

Obviously from the post just below yours Lizzie is perfectly happy in her world with her band of followers.

Great. Nothing to argue with there. I am sure she is correct.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM

"I did write much the same thing in the post below. I wonder if writing it twice will make much difference."

Sowry Dave! I'll be sure and double check that I haven't echoed prior sentiments in future threads... ;-)


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:39 PM

I can blame Adam Crozier for so many things, you'd not believe it!

Crow Sister, my words have never been wasted. It is precisely because I write as I do that my little crowd of followers love to follow me. I get more people to look things up, think about things, or sit there with their mouths open in anger, than many....

That's what I do....that's where my words go, to the hearts and minds of others, where ideas are taken up, or the aggression to 'prove me wrong' becomes so strong that more than a few things start to happen, for the good, because of it.

I've known it for years...watched it over and over.

For years they have insisted I write as they want me to, I never will.

My Right to Write belongs to me, and to no-one else, other than one man on here who has fought so hard to give that Right back to me, for which I will always be grateful.

If all employers believed in Rights, as that man does, then my goodness, what a happy workforce there would be in this world.


Ah, Wales counts, Gervase! Most definitely.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

Is anyone in all of Britain happy, unabused or at least safe?
Me. But I live in Wales, so that probably doesn't count.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Crow Sister - PM
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:46 AM

I did write much the same thing in the post below. I wonder if writing it twice will make much difference.


Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave - PM
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:45 PM


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:01 PM

Sinsull, We have contracts. And an accountant etc.

The second instance was an arrangement between 'friends' I didn't think I needed to keep proof that I'd helped a friend.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM

Green Wellies - a contract and receipts are basic to running a business.
Lizzie - the latest ad for postal worker jobs shows a full time salary (after a year of part time) at about $24,000/year. 40+ paid days off. Not bad for an 18 year old. No figures on union contract increases.

US jobs give one week of paid vacation (sometimes two)for the first year plus about 10 paid holidays.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:46 AM

Lizzie, I'm afraid I tend to err barely even skim your posts as they are so fulsome so to speak - but without wishing to attack other posters, I think Gervase has a point..

Unfortunately however (IMO) it's your extreme *style* that alienates people, rather than the actual *content* of your posts. It comes over like extreme evangelism, and while I appreciate passion, it's simply too much too ingest! And others react to that. Honestly if you were a religious zealot, I'd give you NO time at all, but you obviously care strongly about things I care about too. So I personally also sympathise with some of what you say, if not with the way in which you tend to say it... :)

In this instance, if Boots are busy peering down peoples trousers I think that, that to me, sounds a bit much too. Big orgs. like Boots essentially have power over people that need jobs.

It's an employers market out there today, so there will be an increased danger of big employers in particular, being more free to abuse their power over a needy workforce - which shouldn't in my humble be summarily dismissed as "well you don't have to work there if you don't want to have people poking down your pants".

As Gargoyle rightly intimates, Unions were created to correct the longstanding imbalance of power between the ickle worker, and the great big boss man. In times when the employee is less valuable, the Union becomes even more so.

But I'd like to hear more about it, and certainly hear Boot's side of the story if poss.

Meanwhile, I flagged this up elsewhere for you:

Liberty - Protecting Civil Liberties, Promoting Human Rights

Join up and connect with others who DO actually make a difference to the world we all share. Your passionate energy is but meaningless wasted breath otherwise! Take those fighting words and bloody well put them into action!!! ;-) x


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

Yes Lizzie, lets bring back trust. I'd be the first to sign up.

To follow on from my experience with the customer from hell at my stables, the vacancy was then take up by an old friend who used to keep her horse with us years ago.

She had an accident with her new horse and ended up in hospital. After a while the sick pay dried up and to cut a long story short (sure you've all had more than enough horse 'tails'! for now) she left the yard owing me over £1,000. I had no proof that I had paid for her vet, feed, hay, farrier, it was all cash and of course she promised to pay me back.

She was having a hard time, no money, injured etc. I was an old friend I helped her out - I TRUSTED her !!! And dont think I havent tried to get the money back - I have.

One instance was a complete stranger, the second was an old friend. Some may say I'm just not a very good judge of character, my friends say my biggest downfall is that I always see the good in people, and look where its got me. And you wonder why I dont trust people.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM

It's just the British way to moan. Think of some of our comedy heroes - Tony Hancock, Victor Meldrew, Albert and Harold Steptoe, Alf Garnett - all of them railing against the Fates.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:53 AM

Appears to be legal:
http://www.insight-security.com/pdfs/pirssm2.pdf



You live in a world where trust has become a thing of the past. I don't. I sleep well at night, place nicely with others (usually) and never run with scissors.

Is anyone in all of Britain happy, unabused or at least safe? Sometimes when I read these threads I wonder. Micca is always smiling but I think he drinks a lot. Jacqui is no longer a real Brit. Neither is TRUBRIT. A real conundrum.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:52 AM

I'm glad they're searching the Royal Mail staff - I've had stuff nicked by them. The police installed cameras and got the bugger and that was before Adam Crozier took over so you can't blame him.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:50 AM

Did you know that they're trying to cut the Postmen's wages by a THIRD?

Meanwhile, Adam Crozier (spit!) is paying himself around £57,000 a WEEK. Good, huh? And....he was a football manager, brought into The Royal Mail by his great friend, 'Would you buy a used car from me? Alan Leighton'....who also awarded himself megabucks...and who now is something to do with Leeds Football Club.

The two of them have wrecked The Royal Mail....they also spent £5 million pounds on calling it Consignia...and then...a few months later, realised what a terrible mistake they'd made, so they changed it back to The Royal Mail....

.....and meanwhile, out on the shop floor, the staff are being searched, paid crap wages, not even given a cuppa after a 6 hour shift...

The days of The Greedy Ones are numbered...because the anger on that bus was just a tiny smidgeon of what's going on around the country...


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:44 AM

The way forward is to bring the trust BACK, gw...not to become more and more paranoid all the time, as is happening now.

Geez, I had to have TWO forms of identity just to get a LIBRARY card the other day.   ???????????????


Many staff are being treated like shite, being forced into accepting bad conditions, bad pay, bad treatment, because if they don't, then they don't get the job....and that is shite!

And another thing.....

You can only get a job in Boots by going online, or being put through the most dumbed down, patronising telephone questionnaire...which asks such questions as (and I cannot recall the exact wording here):

'Do you deem yourself to be

a) Dishonest
b) Slightly dishonest
c) Honest'


I mean???????????????????????

Obviously, their policy ain't working, 'cos they're stuck into thinking that all their stafff answered 'a'...or maybe that's their problem...they only take staff who answer 'a' in the first place! LOL

Geez, what has Boots come to.....Marks and Spencers are the same, Waterstones, Waitrose, Sainsburys..all job applications are done this way, online or over the phone...

Sorry, but bring back the days of "Hello there, I was wondering if you had any jobs going?"

"Why yes, dear, we do actually. Come and have a cup of tea and let's have a chat about it..."


Oh, happy days!


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:36 AM

Oops...it posted before I'd finished... :0)

Nothing was ever put in writing...a 'gentleman's agreement'....and lo and behold...40 years later, Dad went in to work to find that his 'partner' (who was the one with the money) had sold out to D&A's, the big optical firm. Not a word had been said to Dad, not a single word...All those years when he'd been the one putting in the work and there it was....gone.

He never really recovered from the sense of betrayal from his friend, but at no time did he lose his trust in other people. He realised, eventually, that his friend Eric was no friend at all, just one who was ruled by greed and disloyalty, but he never viewed others in the same way.

This was because my Dad was a good man, who refused to dislike people or be suspicious of them.

You cannot treat everyone as if they are thieves. It is total madness.

We live in a world now where trust is starting to become a thing of the past....

We are all viewed as potential terrorists, paedeophiles, thieves...

It is wrong.


Oh, and there is no moral or legal requirement for me to answer any questions from those above, no matter how determined they are to get me to do so.   I am my own person and I will answer what I choose to, in the way I choose to. My way.

Thank you.


And.....you all have a great deal to learn from my Father.


Oh...and today I spotted a 'Security Desk' in Boots, in our town...manned by a swarthy looking Security Guard, who looked as he'd murder yer Granny.....so who knows, perhaps Boots have decided to search their customers now, as well as their staff....?????

And don't even get me started on the way the Postmen are being treated by Adam Crozier and his Shite Team in The Royal Mail, because..after travelling back on the bus with two very angry Posties, I nearly got the Rebellion started...as half the bus joined in the conversation I was having with them.

Bring BACK the Union Men!


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:16 AM

Nothing to disagree with there Lizzie, I have certain friends who I would trust with my life, family, horses and bank balance, without a second thought.

But taking on complete strangers whom you know nothing about except what they choose to tell you, is a completely different matter. And I wouldn't rely on references either, anyone can write a reference.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 09:36 AM

My Dear Dad worked as an optician all his life. He built up the business back just after the War, with his friend, Eric Massey. Together they made it a success, going on to open quite a few branches. Nothing was ever put in writing.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:12 AM

Liz - I feel your pain. I understand your anger...that stems from frustration....and a "system" that does not fit your sense of "higher values."

Encourage your child to join the union!

In today's world... union membership is NOT a system of "worker VS management." It is a cooperative network.

Personally, I like the Dutch analogy of the "polder system," ie...if the dyke is breached we all drown together." None of us wants to be submerged. And we are all living in a time of "high tides" and "stormy forecasts."

Take it from the "lone wolves" that have weathered many a battle...against the vilest of foes....going blow for blow, solo, against the big-boys for years. ....

it helps,

it is necessary,

it is vital,

to have the "force of the pack" behind your cause...when it looks like they have you by the throat and you will never hear the "ten-count"...a powerful union (with its lawyers) has no equal...hopefuly they are never needed.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It is very hard to imagine why, recently, you Brits keep - spewing your spleen to audiences un-seen...So... times are that hard on the island?


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 04:25 AM

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but hey ho, this is regarding trust.

As some of you know, we have a livery yard renting stables and grazing. A couple of years ago we had two vacancies and were contacted by a lovely family looking for stabling for the mothers horse and the childs pony. They visited, had a look, I explained the rules and routines, they also had all the yard info in writing, both parties had a think about it., ie., was our yard right for them (no two yards are the same!), and from our point of view did I think they would fit in with my existing clients. A few days later they phoned to say they would take up the stables and arrived with their horses a week later.

For approximately 9 months everything was fine, they looked after their horses to my standards, followed all the rules, got on well with all my existing clients, some of which have been with me for over 10 years. I allowed them to park their lorry on site, we went off to shows and met up for drinks and bbq's in the evenings, the lot.

Then things started to change, one of our 'rules' is that when you need hay you help yourself from the barn, record it on the list, and pay at the end of the month. Their horses were never without hay, but only half was ever recorded - and I know how much hay a horse will eat! Other clients were finding that their tack had been used, feed was being used up quicker than normal. Two ladies kept a record of these incidents as these things only happened when the 'new' family were alone on the yard. They came to me and I agreed to look at their 'evidence' and keep an eye on things for myself. After about 6 months, I had to agree with their findings.

Then things took a sinister turn. Their horses were moved from one field to another without my permission, breaking one of the golden rules you never ever move a horse without asking first. When I asked why they had done it the husband said it was because my horse had attacked their pony. I found this completely unbelievable, my horse just does not behave in that way. Their horse was not injured at all so I asked them to return their horses to the correct field and all went back to normal.
Then soon afterwards this happened again. This evening I was alone on the yard, it was late and dark. The husband turned up and I asked him why their horses had been moved. Well to say he scared the life out of me was an understatement - he stood right in my face, I mean nose to nose, and shouted 'I'll put my f*****g horses where the f***k I like' and so he went on and on, threatening, bullying, intimidating. He left me shaking and scared for my life - no joke. They had turned from the perfect horsie family to the customers from hell, with the intent of taking over the yard, and nobody - but nobody saw it coming.
My husband and his farming mates turned up the next morning and chucked them off the yard.

The point I'm making is that you may think that you're employing the nicest, most honest, trustworthy, genuine people in the world, but you just dont know what people are really like. It is impossible to know. From this experience I can see why, rightly or wrongly, employers do not trust staff no matter how nice they appear to be at the interview. Once bitten etc.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:53 AM

Exactly, D el G & Ruth — as I said above it can all, in a non-doctrinal sense, be put down to what might be termed 'Original Sin'. There just are, unhappily, people who are opportunistic & untrustworthy however much you confide in them & however well you treat them. We seem agreed, Lizzie, that this is the aspect of the matter you are failing to address. & it's really no use your turning all hoity-toity & saying you'll choose which questions to answer, that's your privilege . It isn't, because you OP'd this thread, so surely have a moral, if not a legal, obligation to defend and justify the positions you have taken up rather than choose to ignore opposition to them if it just happens to suit you to do so.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM

"They wouldn't be stealing in the first place, because I'd damn well be looking after them, realising that without them I'd have no business. I would go out of my way to ensure they were decently paid, decently rewarded and felt a real part of the business, seeing bonuses come *their* way as much as mine."

This is totally naive. To go back to the example of the pub where I worked: it was a new business, set up by an enthusiastic couple. It had live music, a lively clientele, paid decent wages, and if you worked a late shift they gave you a meal.

Someone - a doctor's son, as it turned out, who was better off than pretty much everyone else working there - decided to go on the fiddle anyway. He didn't steal because he was being undervalued, or because he needed the money: he stole because he could. Because he was greedy. Because he didn't care what happened to the rest of us and our jobs.


Another example: a couple I knew in my hometown used to provide summer jobs in their shops for ex-pats and students from the UK and Ireland. They had done this for years, even letting new arrivals stay with them till they got themselves sorted with digs, paid well, and didn't breathe down their necks or watch everyone like hawks because they had trust in their employees. One year they even let a young English couple manage one of their shops for the summer. Well, this young English couple realised that, because of the trust placed in them, it would be fairly easy to start nicking. So they did. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars. They weren't found out for ages because they were doing all the banking themselves. And when they were discovered, they did a runner. Naturally, the owners were terribly shocked and upset by this, and stopped hiring ex-pats and students. So loads of other people were screwed by the selfishness of just two people.

That's all stealing often is, I'm afraid: opportunistic, selfish acts done by people just because they can.

So I think Green Wellies' question is still a valid one.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM

...and I claim page 4 with an idea. Lizzie - a comendable goal.

would go out of my way to ensure they were decently paid, decently rewarded and felt a real part of the business, seeing bonuses come *their* way as much as mine.

In answe to my last question, how about you go first? I would recommend a little reading first though and would recommend 'The ragged trousered philantropists' by Robet Tressell. Look at how abused the workforce was back then. Look at the marvelous ideas for a Utopian society. Then read the last chapter where it is all ruined, by the human nature of both sides. If it gets too heavy maybe a revisit of 'Animal Farm' would be in order?

DeG


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:44 PM

Employment is a two-way thing and we seem to have forgotten that, on both sides.

Thank you Lizzie - It is indeed a two way thing. Employers have rights as well as employees. There are a number of Employers who abuse those rights, that is taken as read. But there are also employess who take advantage as well. Until we realise that respect should be shown in both directions we will always get confrontations.

Maybe when emploers stop abusing their privelages employees will stop taking every advantage they can. Maybe when employess stop taking advantage employers will stop abusing them. Who will go first?

The most basic economic tenat is to fill unlimited wants with limited means. To fulfil that demand a balancing act of labour, capital and resources is required. No single one can work without the other.

DeG


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 04:37 PM

Thank you, Gervase. x


As to what I would do if my staff were stealing from me:

They wouldn't be stealing in the first place, because I'd damn well be looking after them, realising that without them I'd have no business. I would go out of my way to ensure they were decently paid, decently rewarded and felt a real part of the business, seeing bonuses come *their* way as much as mine.

I'm really quite sickened by those who've come down on the side of Boots about this, really sickened indeed.

GW, for your information, I do not answer questions unless I want to, no matter how much someone asks, and...I answer them in the way I choose to, not the way you may want me to.

I write as I write, think as I think, speak as I speak. I have never tried to stop anyone else from doing exactly the same.

Therefore, please treat me with respect and realise that I do not *have* to reply to you at all, nor write in the way you deem acceptable.

I am me, not you.



Again, as a former employee of Boots, who therefore knows far more than most on this thread about how we were all once treated, I would suggest to the new owner of Jessie Boots business that he ensures all his staff are treated in a correct and decent manner and NOT looked upon as potential thieves, but well-paid, potential bonus-earning staff, who deserve his respect, because without them he would not be able to survive.

Employment is a two-way thing and we seem to have forgotten that, on both sides.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 12:41 PM

I don't think it is bullying but the point is significant. If someone is searched, albeit in a legal and sympathetic manner (nothing said has indicated otherwise) the for some reason it becomes harrasment. If someone mentions anything to do with colour or creed it becomes racism. If anyone disagrees with another persons views it becomes bullying. We are breeding a culture of victims. If someone disagrees with us it is easier to shout 'bullying/racism/facism' than it is to try and prove our point logicaly.

Sad really.

DeG


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:25 AM

Well I have never attacked Lizzie, only what she has written. Here is an example: Lizzie wrote in this thread:

From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

A bloody EXCELLENT EMPLOYER!

And all the Crooked Crooks should model themselves on Joseph, because then, and only then, would people be cared for again, by employers who value and appreciate those who work for them, making them their fortunes.


She was talking about Joseph Rowntree who died in 1925. And forced the women in his factory to leave his employment once they got married.

Now if pointing this out is bullying then I plead guilty.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:02 AM

Its not bullying its just making a point and backing it up with facts and evidence. Thats giving your point of view. Whats the point of a discussion forum if you cant do that.

Yes she's made a valid point, and all along I have asked one valid question, to which there has been no answer.

However the fact that there has been no reply, in itself speaks volumns (pardon the punn). Its incredibly rude to ignor someone when all they've done is ask a question.

There are too many people around who are prepared to light the blue touch paper and retire...............

Dont fret, I wont be posting again - life's too short.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 04:39 AM

I do wonder that if Lizzie said two and two made four, whether certain posters on this thread wouldn't go out of their way to try to prove her wrong. The level of bullying is pretty unpleasant.
She's made a valid point. To search staff, especially pulling their clothes away to peer down their trousers, is a demeaning process. Yes, it's gone on for years in the manual sector, where the 'us and them' lines were drawn up back in the days when the good guys wore blue, the middle guys wore brown and the bad guys wore white, but it's a shame it's still going on.
It's also a shame that so many staff steal.
At root, it's a shame that labour relations in the UK are shot to shit, and that employees have so little pride and employers have so little respect.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 03:27 AM

Ah the good old days, so unlike today, now let me recall, at the Austin (MG Rover):

If you were 3 minutes late you were docked 15 minutes pay,
If you were 5 minutes late you were docked 30 minutes pay,
If you were up to 10 minutes late you were not allowed to clock in, you had to go and find your foreman and ask if he needed you that day. Usually he said no and you were sent home without pay.
The shop floor were never paid for tea breaks or lunch.
On the track if you wanted to go to the toilet you had to find someone to take you place so that the track continued.
It was usual for men to p**s at the side of the track.
The only time off paid, apart from 4 weeks annual holidays, were funerals usually only mother, father, spouse or child and that was at the descretion of the foreman.

When was this, the early 1900's, no this was 1970's and 1980's. And some of these practices continued until the day it closed.

Sorry Lizzie I dont know what pink fluffy world you inhabit, but it sure as hell aint the the real one.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:45 PM

But don't try to tell us it is new and it did not happen in your chocolate box England.

Strong collective organisations can fight bastard employers. They don't always win, I never met an organisation that did. And it costs, and sometimes the hardships are hard to take. But you can win sometimes. And that's what counts.

People learnt that particular hard lesson about collectivism a century and a half ago.

But that takes organisation and effort and time. And organising and attending meetings (many of which are boring) and forming strong liaisons with like-minded people. And going to more meetings, and gathering support. And leafleting and nowadays using social networking organisations to draw attention to the cause. And going to more meetings. And cajoling and arguing your corner and writing letters (emails) and getting involved in organisations. It is hard work.

Folk Against Fascism did wonders gathering people together - it seemed within minutes. Because there were a lot of like-minded people who knew what to do. And were happy to use modern technology and were able to gather some high profile names around them. But it didn't just happen, it took emails and telephone calls and long-standing relationships built up over a period of time and so on. And given that initial impetus, was and is being worked upon.

Lizzie against the rest of the world is mainly a Mudcat phenomenon as far as I can see, and thus is unlikely to have much impact.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:57 PM

OK, Lizzie. So the workers have the right not be be treated with mistrust and suspicion. In other words Innocent until proven guilty? But the employers and managers are not be be afforded the same courtesy? The 'Italian billionaire bastard' is tried, sentenced and executed without even being in court? Mind you, from what I have seen on the news that is nothing new for the Italian justice system! I can see where you are coming from though and wokers rights are somehing I do feel passionately about.I am happy to say our views just differ somewhat on when the rot set in and agree that they need to be improved.

However, as to, It is not normal to search staff like this. It never used to be done, never...and staff were treated with far more decency, loyalty and thought than they are now, in so many cases.

I do not think I can accept that. What about the mill workers and miners who were subject to searches and all sorts of other intrusions? What about the factory and building site workers who were 'quarter-houred' for being 2 minutes late - and sacked the next time? What about the people who were, and still are, expected to work longer hours than they are paid for if they want to keep their jobs? This is not the 1800's I am talking about but the 1960s and 70s - I remember it well.

Once again I am afraid you are measuring all experiences by your cosy past and, yes, shop work was much nicer than the mills or mines or building sites. They still are. But don't try to tell us it is new and it did not happen in your chocolate box England.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:34 PM

I've been speaking to colleagues and friends ref breaks and lunch. Nobody I know says part-time workers are treated the same as full time staff and why should they.

I work from 8.00am until 5.00pm and get breaks and my lunch. Why should someone working a fraction of that time get the same perks as me. You want the same breaks - do the same hours as the full time staff.

But back to the main point, what do you do Lizzie when you see someone stealing from you. Your hard earned property. You ask them to empty their pockets and they say 'no' - search them or let them walk away laughing.

Everybody go and shop at Lizzies, she'll let you fill your pockets and walk away no questions asked !!


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM

Meaness, Suspicion and Mistrust are NOT the foundations of a happy company, nor one I want to have anything to do with, but you guys 'shop away'....and leave Jesse Boot to turn over in his grave, up in Nottingahm...where his ancient tears will fall silently into the earth as his beloved company betray all that his business once stood for.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM

Er...I've also written to Boots....and I didn't say anything about a 'strip search'....but the young woman concerned was asked to hold the top of her trousers out, so they could see nothing was hidden down there. She was picked 'at random', not because of any suspicion.

I told Boots that this whole idea was beyond comprehension. They told me that they appreciated my points, many of which I've put on here, so I won't go into them again...and ended telling me that they would make sure that all staff concerned with these searches were properly instructed.

I wrote back, telling them they'd missed my point entirely..which was that these searches should not even be happening in the first place.

However, it would seem that apart from a very few on here, a very, very few, and one is, like me, a former employee of Boots the Chemist, most are on the side of the employers in this.

I'm amazed at this.....and saddened too, that relatively intelligent people cannot see that once you let mistrust take such a strong hold in your life, then you cannot live your life in a normal manner.

It is not normal to search staff like this. It never used to be done, never...and staff were treated with far more decency, loyalty and thought than they are now, in so many cases.

I truly do not understand those who can see no wrong in this situation..and it makes me feel that Orwellian Britain is producing Proles faster than I can keep up with it.

Yeesh!

Support the Corporate Billionaires and their Henchmen if you must, but *never* in a thousand years hope that I will ever give in to them.

Boots are wrong in treating their staff in this way and I, my friends too, all have decided not to shop there any longer, because WHY would we want to support a company who behaves in this manner...

8am to 2pm and no break, unless they take it out of your wages...Sheesh!


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM

Very prompt respose from Boot customer service - Copy below.

I'd like to offer you my reassurances that whilst we do search our store colleagues at no time do we undertake strip searches. All our colleagues from both our stores and our support offices grant us the 'right of search' when they accept our terms and conditions of employment. We fully appreciate that searches are always very sensitive our teams follow guidelines and ensure that the dignity and feelings of the individual they are searching is respected.

Before searching, we always ask the colleague first if they have any objections to being searched and we do arrange for another appropriate colleague to be present at the time. Where possible we try to ensure that someone of the same sex carries out the search and at no time is the individual asked to remove garments other than outdoor clothing (coats, cardigans etc) and we take great care to not physically touch the person being searched.

Of course, if there is a specific incident that you feel we need to investigate I can of course engage the right team colleagues to make this happen.

In the meantime, I would like to thank you for your trust in and custom with Boots and to re-assure you that we will always strive to carry on our business in accordance with highest ethical standards.

Yours sincerely,


So, they say it is - in the contract, no strip searches, no physical touching, the right to have a collegue present and the right to object. Sounds very reasonable to me. They also offer the right to bring specific incidents to their attention for further investigation. Maybe rather than risking a libel writ against themselves or, worse still, the Mudcat the opening poster should consider getting an investigation underway to get the facts. After all, as pointed out, we should not assume guilt without proof - Even of Boots the Chemists!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:33 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:31 AM

Be interested to see what they have to say, especially as they are now advertising for temporary Christmas staff. Positions which are usually filled by younsters and students home from Uni for the holidays.

Ripe for explotation - IF that is indeed what is happening.

I, for one, shall look forward to their side of the story, as my gap-year son has just applied to our local branch.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:08 AM

I have written to Boots with the following note -

Hello

I am very alarmed at a story running on a web discussion group that your company is mistreating your young employees. The full post is here -

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=124791&messages=133#2761939

but the gist is that staff are being illegally searched and denied their rights in terms of proper breaks and facilities.

I hope you understand that if this type of thing does go on oin your company you will loose not only my trade but that of countless others.

I look forward to your prompt response.

Regards

David


Hopefully we will get their side of the story and decide for ourselves. I will post the reply when I get it.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:01 AM

What I dislike is the change from Personnel Department to Human Resources Department that most companies have adopted now. I know that those of us at the bottom of the ladder are, to the bosses, just a load of cattle but do they have to make it so obvious.

So you think "Human" is not as good as "Personnel"?


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GUEST,Mike
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:26 AM

I would not say no to a full Body search when I left the office of an evening providing the person who did the search was female and well proportioned and enjoyed it as has much as I did.

What I dislike is the change from Personnel Department to Human Resources Department that most companies have adopted now. I know that those of us at the bottom of the ladder are, to the bosses, just a load of cattle but do they have to make it so obvious.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:48 AM

To get to root of the matter - I have taken the liberty to make contacts regarding your concerns - unfortunatly, it is the weekend.

I anticipate a corporate response into this thread by Wednesday, November 11.

The location of her "Boots" store - and the hours of the "incident" will help.


Lizzie has clearly forgotten to assist you here, since she has posted six times and not bothered. It is no secret that Lizzie lives in the South-West.

But it happened to the daughter of a friend so it could be anywhere. Lizzie may decide to help get an answer or not. My advice is not to hold your breathe.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:18 PM

So, to get back to my question, what do you do when you see a member of staff puting your property into their pocket if you do not agree with searching your staff.

Its not a trick question ............. honestly. Simple answer will do.

Lizzie - woman of principle..........or Lizzie - woman who doesnt answer simple questions directly related to the thread subject.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:50 PM

Cups of tea keep me going — I couldn't agree more about their overwhelming importance. Trust, partnerships, goodwill — they all have their place in the commonweal indeed. But unhappily there always does remain an intransigent hard core who are just not honest and not trustworthy [I have no religion; but one thing I do believe, in a non-doctrinal sense, is the existence of what I can only summarise by the term Original Sin].

So, now: in all sobriety and all honesty — what is to be done about them if they are not to louse up everything for the rest of us?


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: GUEST,Dr. Fraud
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM

Re: I will not surrender my pride, my intelligence, my self-respect or my soul to a Corporate Master...ever.

Ahhh. MizLiz...your rage then stems from the disappointment in finding that you raised a child who has compromised "your ideals."

Let go, and let live.

They are not you.

In France - anyone may be questioned at anytime - and called to account - even the president.

In Iran - we do not worry about theft, or other social problems. Our people have instilled the higher moral code that you so desperately wish from your western society.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM

I accept your kinder words, and thank you.

However, the way forward is to bin the Gross Suspicion that has taken so many things over, and start going back to Honourable Trust.

If you don't want staff to steal from you, then you treat them as I was treated, with respect.

Respect should start at school. And it should start with teachers respecting children, as much as the other way around. We live in a shattered society at present, and it is way past time to start putting those pieces back together.

Boots, or anyone else, can do it by saying to their employees that they are all entitled to a 15 minute paid tea break, with tea, coffee etc, paid for by the company. The amount of goodwill that will bring would be enormous, as would Boots, or anyone else, stating that they are no longer carrying out searches on their staff, because they have decided to make their staff partners in the firm, just as John Lewis/Waitrose do...and therefore, if stealing happens, the staff are actually stealing their own profits.

You need to look at why people are stealing more than before. And when you look you will see that many employees feel hard done by, working for minimum wage, under shite conditions, whilst those at the top get maximum profits and a life of luxury.

After all, it was cups of tea that won the war, you know. :0) They can do an awful lot for business relations too.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:38 AM

Sorry, Lizzie — some of my comments on your intelligence were unworthy & I do wish I hadn't said them.

Your above job description sounds a delight, & the practice were very lucky to get an employee as dedicated as you and you were lucky to get employers like them. But I don't exactly see its relevance to the topic of this thread. All one can say is that it would be nice if everyone were so loving and appreciative.

Unhappily, it isn't so. You know that there are, e.g., thieves, who will steal from their employers if they can, & from whom employers have not only the right but the duty (as Ruth A pointed out, in the interests of the honest majority) to protect themselves by any reasonable and honest means at their disposal.

Honestly now, Lizzie; starting again with a bit of goodwill between us, please; and bringing that intelligence of yours to the question — how can you fault what I have just said?


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:38 AM

OK, so here is THE way to treat your staff.

I worked in Harley Street, as a medical secretary/PA. That was my job, nothing more. But, the two men I worked for were very supportive, loyal, hard working, thoroughly decent people. Within weeks of starting work for them, I got married. They bought me crystal wine glasses. I was stunned.

I worked hard for them, VERY hard...and between the three of us we built up a highly excellent practice, giving life back to patients from around the world.

Pay rise time comes....

"So, what do you think we should pay you, Lizzie?"

"£100,000 and a company car, please!" joked I....and we all laughed together...

"Find out what Dr. so and so's secretary's getting, then pay yourself £1,000 more" said Dr. Spurrell, and Gareth nodded his head in agreement...

Again, I was a bit stunned....


When the Tube Strike was on, I slept on the settee in the Consulting Room, so I'd be there next day, as ever. When they went on holiday I decorated their Examination Room from top to bottom..free of charge...apart from the paint. They didn't know I'd done it until they got back...it wasn't in my job description, but...it needed doing, so I did it.

I did a thousand and one other things that weren't in my job description either. Why? Because they treated me with the utmost respect and kindness.

And that was returned to them a thousand fold.

They knew they could trust me with their lives, if needs be...and vice versa...and THAT is the ONLY foundation that you should want to build a successful business on, not one of control, meaness and distrust.

The current way of thinking stinks.

And thanks, mate...but I am well aware of my intelligence, despite the ridiculing that goes on here. I've ridden over a wall of nastiness...

...and just so's you know...I would never question YOUR intelligence publicly, despite it being more than a little obvious that er.......


Roll over and give in, if you must, but do NOT expect me to join you.

Lizzie - A Woman of Principle!


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:25 AM

'I will not surrender my pride, my intelligence??????????, my self-respect or my soul to a Corporate Master...ever.'


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:16 AM

Charming, Lizzie — but if you knew me at all you would know that enjoining me to PISS OFF is the most certain way of ensuring that I shall do no such thing. So, to respond in kind, up yours, my dear... And your arguments remain FATUOUS. The employers who 'treat you like an idiot' appear to me to have a point.


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Subject: RE: Searching Staff....Is this right?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:14 AM

And yes, I needed the money, but no, I won't sell my soul to any Corporate Devil, and would rather struggle on until I find a job that treats me half decently.

It is OUR fault that things have got this bad. WE are the staff and without us, they cannot run their shops, factories, businesses etc.....

Employment is a two way thing, and the employees seem to have forgotten that, letting patronising, uncaring, mean-spirited B*stard Employers treat them like shite.

When I go for an interview, I am also interviewing 'them'...and if they don't come up to my standards, I walk away....and struggle.

I will not surrender my pride, my intelligence, my self-respect or my soul to a Corporate Master...ever.


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