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BS: BNP on question time

Tug the Cox 20 Oct 09 - 08:59 AM
Smedley 20 Oct 09 - 09:00 AM
Tug the Cox 20 Oct 09 - 11:22 AM
theleveller 20 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM
Fred McCormick 20 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM
VirginiaTam 20 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM
VirginiaTam 20 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM
Chris Green 20 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM
jeddy 20 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Oct 09 - 06:19 PM
akenaton 20 Oct 09 - 07:18 PM
Smokey. 20 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 20 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM
Tug the Cox 20 Oct 09 - 08:55 PM
Smokey. 20 Oct 09 - 09:12 PM
jeddy 20 Oct 09 - 09:13 PM
Peace 20 Oct 09 - 09:15 PM
VirginiaTam 21 Oct 09 - 02:44 AM
Stu 21 Oct 09 - 03:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Oct 09 - 06:03 AM
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theleveller 21 Oct 09 - 07:15 AM
Tug the Cox 21 Oct 09 - 08:07 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Oct 09 - 08:56 AM
Owen Woodson 21 Oct 09 - 11:04 AM
jeddy 21 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM
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Azizi 22 Oct 09 - 07:50 AM
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Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM
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Subject: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 08:59 AM

I think this happened last week ( I'm always out on Thursdays, most days actually). What happened? Did the other parties do ther decent thing and put up non-white panellists? Did the slimy Gtiffin take the opportunity to appear plausible, or was he shot down in flames?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smedley
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:00 AM

You haven't missed it: it's happening this week.

Apparently Bonnie Greer, the black American writer/critic will be a fellow panellist. Ought to be interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 11:22 AM

Thanks, Smedley. Just received this from Hope not hate....thought it was funny that no reports had appeared!!

Dear Jeff,

Despite widespread opposition Nick Griffin will be on Question Time this Thursday.

The BBC have made their decision - they are willing to let a leader of a fascist Party on their flagship show. Last week the BNP agreed to change its constitution for fear of being found guilty of having a racist and illegal membership policy. On Sunday, Griffin attacked and abused his fellow panelists Bonnie Greer and Baroness Warsi for not being white. And yet the BBC still allow him on. Griffin's presence is a stain on the BBC - and I know that you share my feelings of anger.

So I think we need to make a stand.

On Thursday afternoon we're going to the BBC to deliver the Question Time presenter, David Dimbleby, thousands of messages of hope from our supporters. Your stories, your experiences and your belief in an open and tolerant society will send the strongest possible rejection of the BNP's message of hate. You can send your message of hope here:

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/questiontime

The BNP's goal is to divide us. It's to whip up fear and hatred in our communities and then exploit the anger that they've induced.

But we don't have to accept their hatred.

At a moment like this we need to rally together to send a message of defiance against the BNP. And Jeff, you're best placed to do this. So why did you oppose the racist BNP? Why you are proud to live in our open and tolerant society?

Or quite simply, what message do you want to send Nick Griffin?

Tell us here:

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/questiontime

Whatever you write, whatever story you tell, your words will speak for the majority of Britons. And when thousands of us come together in this action we can send a unified message of hope to counter Griffin's fractured message of hate.

Please join us in this moment - whether you write a single word or an entire essay we will take them all to the BBC and present them to David Dimbleby. We can't make the impact we need without you - please send a message now: your stories make our movement.

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/questiontime

Best wishes,

Nick


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM

Done it! Doubt if David will read it, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM

Tug, you're one jump ahead of me. The Leveller is right, there's no way that the moguls at QT will read all those emails. The sheer volume of protests should pull them up sharp though.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

done and sent request to half dozen friends


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

The BNP has already insulted BOTH non-"white" panellists.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

Too many BNP threads up here. Joe said one at a time. Please correct.

Thanks
    Yeah, yeah, don't rush me. I said I will allow only one BNP thread at a time. I didn't say the starting of new threads was prohibited. I'll watch and see which one prevails, and close the other. And please remember that anonymous posting is not allowed. Please use one and only one name when posting. Thank you.
    - Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM

sigh. Did he?

How does one get the message out to send email to the Question Time programme? Could we change the title to BBC to give Nick Griffin airtime? If the original poster is willing.

Why does "guest" make statement in cognito? If Joe said that, then fair enough. No need to hide behind mask to point it out. You are entitled to your opinion and say.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM

I'm not sure what to feel about this to be honest. When it comes to the BNP I hate the bastards and everything they stand for. But it seems to me that you either have free speech or you don't. If (as I understand it) the rules are that once you've obtained representation in the European Parliament, you're entitled to airtime on the BBC, it seems wrong to make one rule for the BNP and another for everyone else. I've seen members of other minority parties on QT over the years.

Of course the cynic in me says that this is all about the BBC chasing ratings. Whatever it is, I hope the interviewer and the panel show more balls when talking to Griffin than that dosy mare on the radio did the other day when she was interviewing the pair of throwbacks from Hitler Youth!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

here here chris.

you all know how i feel about the BNP. but if we are to fight facism, then we need to have free speech, we may dislike what they say, but they have a right to say it.
if only they were truethful about what they are and if only they just talked instead of attacking people and using thug tatics.

instead of keeping the BNP and their ilk underground, show them give them airtime. let the world see them for what they are. they are their own worst enemy and it won't be long before they 'sink' themselves.

however, the panel needs to be made up of people who will not get angry. they need to keep a clear and calm head in order to show that every word the BNP says is a LIE.
to counter every sentance, every agenda. to do this the BNP MUST have a platform to start with.
moving something underground makes it harder to counter and harder to keep tabs on.

i am looking forward to watching nick get trounced on thursday, public humiliation!!! good fun

take care all

jade x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 06:19 PM

Remember that old joke about Fritz and Paddy in the trenches?

You can't shoot the enemy if you can't see it!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 07:18 PM

Public humiliation? The real "public humiliation" is that people like Jack Straw and others, who lied to us over the Iraq War which caused the deaths of over a million people, are accepted on television as liberal democratic politicians.

They continue to lie to us over the viability of our economic system and our role in Afghanistan.

We accept the adoption of the War criminal Blair as proposed leader of the EU with hardly a murmur of dissent, yet waste hours talking and writing against a handful of perceived racists.
Racism and sectarianism has existed for decades in our society and still exists....it is an unfortunate fact, but never the great danger to "democracy" that "liberals" claim it to be.

If it were all to boil down to a vote for Blair or a vote for Mr Griffin, Blair would never get my vote.

How many of the "liberals" on this forum have the balls to say the same?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM

If it were all to boil down to a vote for Blair or a vote for Mr Griffin, Blair would never get my vote.

How many of the "liberals" on this forum have the balls to say the same?


I'm not absolutely sure what a 'liberal' is, but personally I wouldn't vote for either of the twats.. I shall be watching on Thursday though - it'll be a great pleasure to see the blubbery oik humiliated.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM

Last time I looked Jack Straw wasn't a Liberal Democrat, but I take it that the dysfunctional Pharaoh above is using the words in a pejorative sense.

I also note that he refers to "Blair" and "MR. Griffin" so I think we can tell what area of ancient Egypt he's coming from.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 08:55 PM

Humiliated he may well be. But if just a few of the dispossessed take his side, are swayed by his rhetoric and join his cause, he has a result. These guys are not interested in free speech, rational argument etc., only about influence. I'm afraid it may have been handed to them on a plate. The freedom of speech discourse is simply not appropriate in this context.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:12 PM

My faith in human nature may well be on the optimistic side, but if he repels more than he attracts, isn't that a good result?

I'm all for letting him have his platform - freedom of speech is always a double-edged sword, but to deny it anyone is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:13 PM

good point ake, but when this war was decided upon, i was not here, i assume that there was an uproar. people marched in protest here and in the US, it made no difference.   how blair won another election after that i have no idea.

however, the war in iraq and afganistan is not based on race, or skin tone, in fact it probably isn't even about weapons or honour.

if you start a thread on this ake, i will happily talk about it there.

you worry me sometimes ake, in that sometimes i just don't get your logic. blair or griffin? not sure. i can't stand either of them nor do i trust them.
i suppose griffin is more see through. he says things are not about race but clearly they are.

the BNP may well get a few more votes next time round, but if it makes others go out and vote for anyone else, doesn't matter who, they will in fact move further down the chart.
if this programme moves even a thousand more get off their arses, then i think it will make a huge difference in the polls.

the way forward for any party is education.
alot more people are getting disinterested in who runs this country, maybe that should have been disheartened?
so the more info the public have about who and what they are voting for can be no bad thing.

sleep well all

jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:15 PM

"How many of the "liberals" on this forum have the balls to say the same?"

I do. I'd vote for neither Blair nor Griffin.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 02:44 AM

In my email, on the Hope not Hate thing, I also mentioned how disappointed I am that BBC Question Time would prostitute itself for the sake of ratings. The panel selection is something on the order of Big Brother House. Griffin is going to look like the poor downtrodden underdog next to erudite black women and that is likely to polarize more people to his cause.

Bad call in my estimation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Stu
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 03:34 AM

"How many of the "liberals" on this forum have the balls to say the same?"

Er, well 'liberals' is an imported Americanism and not really relevant in the context of British politics (as the liberals are well-meaning but largely irrelevant), but I'd vote for B.Liar (or preferably neither). I think the comparison is wrong however; although the tosser deserves to burn in hell for the immense misery and death his misguided and idiotic pretensions have visited on people worldwide he still did one thing no British Prime Minister has ever done and that is be instrumental in bringing real and lasting peace to the North of Ireland.

Blair is a reprehensible character these days, but I'm willing to concede that before he was seduced by the right-wing he may have had honest intentions and his own principles. Which is far more than can be said for Nick Griffin.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 06:03 AM

The sheer volume of protests should pull them up sharp though.

I doubt it. More people protesting goes with more attention goes with more viewers.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 06:24 AM

"if you start a thread on this ake, i will happily talk about it there."

You may be waiting a long time ...

After Ake spent months going on about how noone talks about immigration, Keith started a thread about it.

Did Ake contribute?

No.

Except to say "We should remember that we are all human beings, the labels hung on us are meaningless, just another trick to divide and "organise" society."

Though I'm not clear about whether that applies to "liberals" or "liberal fascists".


Saying you'd vote for Nick Griffin over Tony Blair is the kind of faux controversial claim that would suck all the credibility out of your commentary if there were any left, though I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that you would follow through on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 06:52 AM

Ake - if what you mean is that you'd rather see Griffin in power than Blair, I can only conclude that a) you don't have any knowledge of 20th century history or b) you're a loon. Are you really suggesting that a BNP government would be preferable to a New Labour one under Blair?

And incidentally, I never voted for Blair or New Labour. I think they're vacuous, image-obsessed morons who (as you say) led the UK into an illegal and pointless war that caused thousands of deaths in order to make Bush look competent and disguise the fact that Islamic terrorism has been fed by Western ignorance and greed.

But set against the crimes and excesses of the last extreme right-wing government in a major European country, I'd say Blair's don't even come close.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 06:59 AM

Free Speech MEANS Free Speech - That means we have to let Griffin have his say . and hope that he digs a big nough hole to bury him and all his Cohorts !


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 07:15 AM

"If it were all to boil down to a vote for Blair or a vote for Mr Griffin, Blair would never get my vote.

How many of the "liberals" on this forum have the balls to say the same? "

Fortunately, it never did and never will, so why make such a stupid and vacuous statement? A spell in the real world might do you some good.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 08:07 AM

That means we have to let Griffin have his say

but it doesn't mean that he has to be afforded a public platform.....at our expense.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 08:56 AM

Free speech never actually means free speech. Not even in the USA is there the right freely and falsely to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 11:04 AM

----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
    From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
    Date: 21 Oct 09 - 06:03 AM

    The sheer volume of protests should pull them up sharp though.

    I doubt it. More people protesting goes with more attention goes with more viewers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh aye? Then take a look at this news item from AOL. I've posted it in full, partly because I don't know whether non-AOL users would be able to access it, and partly to spare people's eyes from the ugliest picture of Nick Griffin I've ever seen. I thought at first he was mooning at the camera.

The BBC's governing body was meeting to debate 11th-hour attempts to block British National Party leader Nick Griffin's appearance on Question Time

The decision to invite Mr Griffin on to the panel has sparked fury among the public and politicians, with Wales Secretary Peter Hain among those who has written to the BBC Trust asking it to reconsider.
Now a panel of BBC Trustees has been set up to examine the complaints to see whether they should act.

It comes amid fears that the planned appearance could boost support for the party, as happened with France's far right party in the 1980s. A special "ad hoc" committee of Trustees will decide firstly whether it can look at the appeals, before potentially thrashing out whether they should be upheld or thrown out.
There has been condemnation and debate surrounding Mr Griffin's appearance - the first time the BNP will have been represented on the programme panel - which has sparked a protest rally to be held in London. Mr Hain wrote to the BBC Trust, asking it to look again at the decision to allow the BNP to "the top table of UK politics" on the BBC1 show.

He argued the party is currently illegal because it does not allow ethnic minorities to join. His letter to the Trust was a last resort after BBC director general Mark Thompson rejected his arguments.
Some have argued putting the BNP up to public scrutiny could have the effect of damaging the party, but others have suggested it could boost interest. Jean-Marie Le Pen, leader of the Front National (FN), saw support for his party double overnight after being questioned on a leading French political programme in 1984.
Dr Jim Shields, associate professor in French Studies at Warwick University, called the appearance "a real milestone" in his acceptability.

Meanwhile, ex-army chiefs General Sir Mike Jackson and General Sir Richard Dannatt accused the BNP of "hijacking" military symbols for their own advantage. Mr Griffin sparked outrage by comparing the British generals to Nazi war criminals and claiming Winston Churchill would join the BNP if he was still alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM

i replied to the hope not hate email explaining why i would not be trying to get nick thrown off the programme.

not be thick or anything but.

if hilter had kept the shocking and terrible violence and murders in his own countries, would we have intervened?
would there have been a war, if not a world war?

like i said sorry to be thick.

have a great night all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: The new leaked BNP membership list
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:57 AM

I have a number of questions about the BBC's Question Time program.

I found this link to the show:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/question_time/default.stm

But I'm still not sure about that show's format. Am I correct that there is more than one panelist interviewed by the show's moderators/hosts with the possiblility of additional questions from the studio audience?

If so, who were the other panelists for that show with Nick Griffin? I recall reading that two of them were People of Color and that one of these panelist is an African American. Would a Mudcat member please post information about these panelists, including those two who are People of Color? Thanks.

**

Also, I'm very curious about the response that the studio audience had to Nick Griffin on that show. Here's a viewer comment that was posted on that web page whose link I've gave above:

"Isn't it telling that at the and of tonight's show, Jacqueline Smith got a bigger boo than Nick Griffin? I don't like either of them but it makes you think"...
David Beck, Haywards Heath

-snip-

Who ia Jacqueline Smith and what is your take on why the studio audience may have booed her more than Nick Griffin?

**

Also, if Question Time's format is a political debate, is it customary for studio audiences to boo or cheer those who are part of the debate? I ask this because in the United States, the moderators for televised debates always start by cautioning their studio audiences to be very quiet, and neither boo, cheer, or clap. My recollection is that the audiences usually adhere to these guidelines. Also, I don't recall television camera shots of the audience. Is this different in the UK?

**

And of course, I'm interested in knowing about the reaction of Mudcat members to that particular Question Time program.

If you are aware of any YouTube videos of that program, please post links to them.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: The new leaked BNP membership list
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:28 AM

Question Time's format is to have a politician from each of the 3 main parties and two other guests given questions submitted in advance by audience members but not previously given to panellists.
The panel each offer an answer which the others can challenge.Audience members are invited to ask supplementary questions during the discussion and can and do clap, groan, jeer and boo.
The debate is usually polite and audience response restrained.
It is not a high ratings mass appeal programme.
I like it.
You should have it.


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Subject: RE: The new leaked BNP membership list
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:19 AM

Azizi, I couldn't find the review you mention, but it suprises me, as the show has not ben on yet. You can watch it on your computer at the link you gave.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:28 AM

Azizi, this was clipped from another thread

On Sunday, Griffin attacked and abused his fellow panelists Bonnie Greer and Baroness Warsi for not being white.

Bonnie Greer (born November 16, 1948) is a Chicago born playwright and critic resident in Britain. She studied theatre in Chicago with David Mamet and in New York with Elia Kazan.She is described as an African American author.

Sayeeda Hussain Warsi, Baroness Warsi (born 28 March 1971) is a British politician for the Conservative Party and a lawyer. Lady Warsi is currently a member of the Shadow Cabinet as the Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion and Social Action. She was born in England to Pakistani parents.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:30 AM

Looks like I closed the wrong thread. The other BNP thread had a lot of traffic early on and then fizzled, and then turned to discussing the "Question Time" matter. I moved the appropriate messages from the other thread over to this one.
Carry on.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Old Vermin
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:35 AM

In reply to Rich on the other thread :


Just me being paranoid, Rich. Seen too many goose-chases on the 'net. My post of a few minutes later issued the corrected when I looked at the side's site rather than EFDSS.

Point remains, I'm reluctant to add to Miss Spicer's workload, but do the EFDSS know that this guy's meant to be at C# House? Anyone - or have I got to?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:38 AM

This YouTube'll give you an idea of the formula, though it's been edited to include only a single panelists comments: George Galloway on Question Time


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 06:54 AM

Thank you for your information about that show.

When I found that link earlier this morning, there was a video of an young British Indian woman who was being interviewed by a host about her views of Nick Griffin being on the Question Time show. (She indicated that she supported the right of that party to be on the show because it had won two seats in the European Union, and she would have appeared on that show if asked to oppose Griffin.

The featured viewer comment was as I posted. Here's the corrected quote:

"Isn't it telling that at the end of tonight's show, Jacqueline Smith got a bigger boo than Nick Griffin? I don't like either of them but it makes you think"... David Beck, Haywards Heath

-snip-

If I understand you correctly and the Question Time program with Nick Griffin hasn't aired yet, I wonder how I saw that comment.

I certainly didn't make it up. I don't even know who Jacqueline Smith is and I take it that "Haywards Heath" is a British town, but I've not heard of it before.

Is that program televised live or is it pre-recored? If it is pre-recorded, maybe the television show featured that particular viewer quote to spark additional interest in the program.

There's an entirely different page and featured viewer quote today at 6:45 AM ("Mudcat time").


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:14 AM

Azizi: it's because, at the end of Question Time, they announce the following week's guests. I expect it was this announcement that got booed.

Jacquiline Smith is an MP and former Home Secretary. She has been one of the most high profile MPs involved in the Parliamentary expenses scandal, which probably explains the booing.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:16 AM

The programme is always live.
It comes from a different town each week.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:40 AM

Sorry to split hairs, but it isn't live. It is recorded a couple of hours before transmission, so although it is still topical, there are opportunities to edit it. The programme makers say that editing is rare and/or minor, and usually done for reasons of 'running time'.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:40 AM

Tonight's programme is being pre-recorded a few hours before broadcast. It is always prerecorded, but they are doing it earlier than they normally do this time, because they anticipate it will be a little "tenser" than usual and will require closer editorial attention...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Spleen
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:41 AM

Sorry, crossposted with Smedley.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:50 AM

Okay, thanks Ruth. I'm glad that there's an explanation for that viewer quote that I read.

With regard to people in the USA can watch that BBC program on the internet, I thought I read somewhere that the BBC programs aren't available to Americans except on YouTube or some other video after the fact.

??


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM

just watching loose women, where has this rumour come from that nick griffin is a 'very clever man' and a 'good orator'?

every time i have heard him he sounds like a moron to me. there is usually something in there that makes my skin crawl, well i just have to look at him for that but you know what i mean.

take care all

jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 08:35 AM

Recording time is 17-30 hrs tonight. I know because I'll be demonstrating outside the BBC offices then.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 09:03 AM

good on ya fred!!!! please no eggs though, and please please be careful, you know how the BNP like to stick the boot in.

lots of love
me x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 10:10 AM

Don't worry. I'm a big lad, and I won't be throwing any eggs. Terrible waste of food.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 11:04 AM

"nick griffin is a 'very clever man' and a 'good orator'"

Compared to who, precisely? I've worn pants that were more intelligent and articulate than him!

That said, it does say something about a) the generally low standards of public discourse and oratory these days and b) the mind-numbing vacuity of most daytime TV programmes. I suppose it shouldn't really be surprising that Griffin comes across as a witty and dazzling speaker to people who've been fed a constant diet of political soundbites and non-stories about non-entities getting pissed in nightclubs!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM

To put the business about booing in context:

When David Dimbleby was announcing future guests first up was the next week, and he mentioned Griffin, which got a good boo. Then he mentioned the following week and Jacqueline Smith's name came up - another boo. Then an announcement that John Sergeant, a former TV journalist who'd made some memorable appearances in Strictly Come Dancing, would be a guest, and everyone cheered - and Dimbleby mutters "this is getting like a pantomime", where that kind of audience participation is traditional. After the first boo it turns into a bit of a joke,


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:12 PM

And somebody only just faintly audible called back. "Oh no it isn't".


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM

The smug creep was boasting in todays papersd about the influence and credibility his ' common sense solutions' would be afforded on the ptogramme. Fortunately there's a music night on at the local, so I won't be tempted to bolster the ratings.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: folk1e
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:33 PM

Weather you like it or not BNP has polled 2% of the UK vote and as such have earned the right to media access.

It is interesting to hear an almost universal condemnation of the likes of Griffin as "Racist Thugs" without any attempt to gainsay his arguments. There ARE problems in parts of the UK that are ethnically based (the problems, not the places) and I see few solutions to these problems being advocated by any other political groups!

The solution to the BNP problem should be to remove their arguments not to call them names.

Whilst I am on my soapbox .....Who gave the jumped up Generals the idea that the "Spitfire" was their emblem to use as they see fit?
At least one potential Conservative MP has used it on his propaganda without causing the ire heaped on the BNP .... or does that not matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM

Maybe what matters is that the Spitfire flew in an anti-fascist war & is now being appropriated by fascists.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM

""Racism and sectarianism has existed for decades in our society and still exists....it is an unfortunate fact, but never the great danger to "democracy" that "liberals" claim it to be.""

I bet there were quite a lot of German pseudo intellectuals who thought exactly the same about Hitler, and if YOU can't see the parallels, your not as bright as you would wish to appear.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

"Around 20 protestors from Unite Against Facism have arrived at the television centre. Organisers from the group say 16 coaches are expected in total.
They're gathered outside the main reception area in front of 7 policemen, chanting slogans including:

'Build a bonfire, build a bonfire, put Nick Griffin on the top,
Put the Nazis in the middle, and burn the fucking lot.'
"


Admittedly, I laughed out loud when I read this. and my gut-reaction is to heartily agree with the sentiment, but on reflection I don't think sinking to the same moronic level as the BNP's rabble-chorus is in the least bit constructive. This sort of behaviour must be exactly what Griffin has been hoping for, and they are playing into his hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 01:57 PM

Why, what an inspired, hilarious, witty, original slogan. That will certainly settle their hash all right.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:09 PM

Looks like the circus is in town:

6.50pm:

Reports say two ambulances, blue lights flashing, have entered the rear of the BBC television centre... no further information available just yet.

6.57pm:

Around 25 police, in high visibility jackets, have just entered the television centre.

No information yet as to why.

A source inside the building says Nick Griffin is relaxed and affable prior to the recording.

7.03pm:

Three police riot vans have now entered the rear of the BBC television centre, as well as the two ambulances.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:30 PM

The latest:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/6409622/BNP-protests-descend-into-chaos-at-BBC-Television-Centre.html


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:34 PM

I'm guessing that this may well be his last television appearance :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:35 PM

I learnt from this forum that "Build A Bonfire" is a United Kingdom children's taunt directed at teachers.

[I'm noting that information on this thread in case there are other Americans* or people from other nations who may have read about that rhyme and didn't get what Michael said about it not being all that original.

* Where are the Americans by the way? In my opinion, the issue of fascism is not just a UK issue. I think that Bruce is the only other "American" besides me who posts to Mudcat's anti-fascism threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:45 PM

For info — "Build a Bonfire", which, as Azizi implies, I have known since childhood, is sung to 'My Darling Clementine'.

To clarify: I yield to nobody in my hatred for BNP & all its works. I just wish the protestors could have thought of some less banal, and hence intrinsically ineffectual, expression of contempt. If they can't do better than that by way of polemic, it seems to me, they might as well pack up and go home for all the effect they are likely to have on anybody's thoughts or actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

Azizi, be aware that the centre of politics in USA is well to the right of the centre here.
BNP is a nasty racist organisation, but it mainly campaigns on issues related to immigration.
It is much harder for immigrants to gain entry to your country, I believe. Proposing a policy like yours here would be slated as "fascist" by many on the left.
I note that you do not allow anyone in with diseases like Aids, TB etc.
Here that would not be an issue at all, and we would provide free drugs and treatment for life.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:03 PM

I meant to add also, that you do not allow people in with criminal records, even for minor offences.
No such restriction here.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM

Keith A - an interesting comment.

How restrictive are the US (and other Western countries) regards immigration compared to UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:21 PM

People can register their opposition to racist & fascist groups without comparing different nation's immigration policies.

There is already a Mudcat thread on immigration. This is not that thread.

I-for one-am not focusing on that issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:24 PM

Crow Sister,
If you are from the U.K. and want to work in the U.S. the only way is to find an employer first who will give you a contract and sponsor your work visa. U.K. citizens CANNOT currently apply to immigrate and get a green card as the U.K is over their quota for this 5 yr. period


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:36 PM

I differ Azizi, the whole Western world needs to be an an accord as to what 'fascism' and 'racism' actually means, and specifically in reference to its impact on governmental policies. In fact I find it interesting that there are not as many posts from the US, on their equivalent social/racial and political issues on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 04:50 PM

are you home yet fred?

how did it go from where you were?

i have been following the progress on the guardian website.
it sounds like it got out of hand at times?

i am really looking forward to watching it in just under an hours time.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

Jade. Ignore this sick sad shite. I've just got back from the Liverpool demo, not the national one unfortunately, but it was very well attended. What's more, I haven't got a Facebook page, but Guest culd do with getting himself a life, or a good psychiatrist, or maybe both.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:28 PM

I note that you do not allow anyone in with diseases like Aids, TB etc

Before I moved to the UK from USA in 2003, the application (why can't I remember what the residency was prior to indefinite leave to remain which I now have) required me to have a TB test and provide verification that I was not carrying tuberculosis.

I am an American living in UK and I have made some comments against BNP on the threads. And got nasty fake profiles on Facebook created in my name/image for my pains.

I don't say much now, except to show I still am against the BNP. I am just to tired to get drawn into the long running arguments with people who won't even post under a semi real ID.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:33 PM

You would not have been denied entry with those diseases Virginia.
It is just that they are notifiable diseases here.
As I said, you would be entitled to free treatment and drugs for life.
USA would not allow you in if you were a victim of those disease as an immigrant, assylum seeker or anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:44 PM

Fair enough Keith. Wonder, if I wanted to go back to US they would let me in with rheumatoid arthritis, since it came on me after I moved to the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 06:43 PM

So, was that it? A shifty looking bugger who couldn't a question straight and spent much of his time trying to smarm Bonnie Greer like some grotesque parody of an Uncle Tom.
To be honest, I think that performance probably lost the BNP a heck of a lot of votes as wavering 'don't knows' finally saw the the Wicked Wizard was really rather a pathetic character.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 06:48 PM

There's a reasonable report on the performance here.
Griffin was really rather underwhelming.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 06:59 PM

A one trick pony which hasn't even perfected that one trick.

It was pure pleasure watching them pick him apart, a fish in a barrel.

If there's anyone out there who still thinks he has what it takes, a brain transplant would be in order.

All these years they've been looking for the missing link between primitive hominids, and homo sapiens, and all the time it's been right here.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:20 PM

I'm not sure that really is a fair review. Watch for yourselves. It will be on BBC i-player. Greer and the Baroness really got on my nerves. The fact that everyone was attacking Griffin from different perspectives I think lessened the impact, but the meretricious debating points about the precise meaning of "indigenous" were trying, and it may well be that the consolidation of the three parties to say that Griffin was beyond the pale may inspire his core audience who believe that no-one hears their concerns (which may be because they are stupid, but that is a different issue).

The idea that we can lock population down at 65 million while people live longer did not get exploded as the economic suicide that it is, and Straw was I think unfairly restrained by Dimbleby while defending Labour immigration policies and rules - but there again he did not go on the attack as I would have thought wise on grounds (1) because the BNP Eurogains were not the result of immigration and (2) Labour's policy was not disastrous but in fact immigration is falling and there are measures to prevent it rising again.

The Baroness got a really easy ride on her historic homophobia.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 08:02 PM

IF I had a Television I would have been tempted to stay home and watch , but as it was I went to the Folk Club! What I saw in the Guarniad Clip , Griffin didnt seem to score very highly .


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 08:48 PM

I didn't watch it....Whats the point of complaining about it being on, and then being suckered in to watching it. On my return home, however, I did flick between Panorama...hatred on your doorstep, and BNP wives on ITV 3, both deeply unsettling!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 09:09 PM

Irony or troll?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 09:15 PM

Yes, I'm surprised at the amount of continual airtime that BNP Wives is constantly getting !!
I must admit that Question Time kept me away from the widdly didly pub session tonight (and I saved some money).


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 10:14 PM

I recorded Newsnight this evening on the video, shame i cant comment.
The Brown Broadcasting Corporation Sorry BBC gave the man seventeen seconds so in the uk we could not see it all.
All the rest was Postal Strike and historic holacousts in Europe
Blatant cencorship so Thanks CNN and Gervase for snippets.
The Media Rules then


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 10:31 PM

richard, it was question time, not newsnight. my other half made the same mistake. i have recorded it for you azizi, it might not be the best quality coz i will have to capture it on the camara first, but if you send me your email, in a PM i will try my best to send it to you soon.

take care are all

love

jade x x x x x

ps is it obvious i am stoned?    LOL x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 11:40 PM

Azizi, you should be able to watch the program here.

A non-event if you ask me, but I thought Bonnie Greer was wonderful. Shame about the rest..


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 02:03 AM

Thanks Jade, for your offer of assistance and Smokey for posting that hyperlink for viewing this program. Unfortunately, the BBC iPlayer doesn't work for people outside pf Great Britain.

However, I saw the entire program on 6 YouTube videos. Here's the link to the first part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iKfrY9l2kY

The other videos weren't listed consecutively on that page, but they can be found if you look for them.

**

The Question Time format reminded me of a blend between a United States political debate with a panel of news reporters, and a town hall political meeting. I was most impressed by the questions members of the audience asked rather than the comments made by the other panelists. However, I thought that the moderator did a much better job at trying to get answers to the questions-and not just from Nick Griffin than most of the moderators have done the primary and national political debates that occurred last year in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

I too found Greer and Warnsi a bit tedious. Don't get me wrong, I like Greer, just not in this setting.

Griffin's, ludicrous justification of Islamaphobia because the Koran objectifies women, cast in the light of the historic BNP statement that "rape is not a crime" was telling. Why did no one call him on that?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:13 AM

Hi Azizi.
Very interesting to get a US slant on our little islands TV progs! (No, Really!)
Hope you didn't miss the Griffin assertion that the the KKK had a non-violent section!. Almost fell off my sofa!
In fact, The programme will probably have acheived nothing, apart from one thing. Pro BNP people, and Anti BNP people, will just dig into there respective holes even more.
It's the disenfranchised and marginalised people of the UK who, having been left wanting by all the major political parties on such subjects as immigration, etc, That the BNP seem to be targeting.
(Although, having said that. The BNP acquired 2 members of the European Parliament earlier this year...not because more people voted for them ...they didn't, but because all the main parties here in the UK have lost touch with the inhabitants of these islands.
Did have a "Been there, seen that" moment, when Griffin was asked to define "Indigenous Britains"
Substitite "Folkies" for "Britains" and 1000 Mudcat threads hove into view!
But thank you for your interest!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:16 AM

Someone should have asked him why, when he is out and about he is constantly surrounded by BNP thugs.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smedley
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:40 AM

To me, Griffin came across as stupid, self-contradictory, bigoted, pernicious, petty, and waaaaaaaaaay out of his depth.

But then that's what I always assumed he is. In other words, nothing I saw changed my views.

Listening late last night & this morning to callerts and comments to other TV and radio shows, however, another discourse in emerging: that he was 'bullied, 'ganged up on', 'set up', and that the rest of the panel and the majority of the audience were 'unrepresentative'.

These views are coming, I would imagine, either from entrenched BNP sympathisers or from others at the right-wing end of the spectrum. They are seeing him as a victim.

All in all, the programme worked to confirm people's pre-existing views.

I always knew he was a slug, now I have some more evidence. But I have grave doubts as to whether anyone who previously supported him, or was thinking of doing so, had their ideas budged one inch.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:42 AM

I thought Greer and Warnsi came over as very credible and dignified. I especially liked the moment when Greer invited "Dick" Griffin to come and read the books on British history that she had put aside for him at The British Museum. She said he needed to read them. The poor woman hd to sit beside Griffin...... you could see her skin crawl when he touched her.

You have to admire Warnsi as well, I thought she was the perfect foil for Griffin given her background. She dismissed him and his arguments with just the right amount of scorn. I'm no fan of the Tories but I had to admire her.

Griffin himself came over as a unprincipled, one dimensional buffoon who was quite happy to try and re-write his own history ..... and everyone elses. I really don't think he gained anything from this TV appearance.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:01 AM

I think it is outrageous that the BBC should invite a man as boring as Jack Straw on it's show.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:14 AM

I wonder...(hopefully), how many of the protesters in London yesterday actually voted in the last Council/European elections here in the UK?
Of course I hate the BNP and all it stands for, but, we live in a democracy in the UK...so, come on people...vote for somebody. anybody!!! No it's not as much fun as being dragged out of a Television reception centre, but....It's the only way to go. Vote...!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Jean Morrison
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:16 AM

Greer owns the finest collection of Robertson's metal badges in Britain. She has them on display in the British museum.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Jenny brampton
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:32 AM

Jade: '
ps is it obvious i am stoned?    LOL x x x ' is that funny? Is that something to be proud of?
JB


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:43 AM

Now we know you are a BNP troll Jean.

Frankly, I thought Greer's two cracks - one (repeatedly) about Griffin needing to read books or learn things, and the other about him having only a 2:2 degree (which I kind of like, since I have two) were feeble school debate stuff.

Straw I thought displayed that he was well informed and made some very powerful arguments, but was not very effective on the Labour immigration position - partly thanks to Dimbleby running interference.

Azizi, Dimbleby (the chairman) has been a flagship political commentator for the BBC for about 40 years and a major part of the delight of Question Time is that he puts all the panellists even-handedly on the spot, which this time he didn't. He had quite a pop at Griffin and Straw, a very minor dig at the Baroness and the Lib-dem, and appeared to let Greer do exactly as she pleased.

But overall although as I presaged the "the establishment ganged up on us" will be a chant from the BNP, Griffin probably undermined himself with anyone who was not already sucked into his doctrines of hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:49 AM

I though Straw was just about OK but missed a few glaring points that he should have made. Including the key point that immigration policy should have nothing to do with race. It was left to Azizi to make this point, Jack should have got in there first, he had the opportunity.

There was a Lib Dem on as well? Didn't notice!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:54 AM

Silly remark about the Lib Dem, Banji. He was actually far the most fluent & cogent speaker. I am not a Lib Dem & think it absurd they are even regarded as a 'major party', as they have as much chance of ever forming a govt, or even holding a genuine balance, as of swimming the Atlantic. But Huhne was still the best of them last night, so don't be petty and fatuous.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:05 AM

MtheGM. As always these things are subjective. I have to say that to my mind Azizi was by far the most impressive on the night..... and I'm along way from being a Tory supporter.

I heard no fresh thinking from Huhne and I thought his presentation was poor. I am struggling to remember any significant input he had into the debate.

Agree my remark was a little facetious, sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:09 AM

Azizi? I think you must mean Warsi. Azizi is our friend from Pittsburgh who contributes so much to these forums. Are you a bit confused?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:12 AM

Just Friday.... yes clearly confused! Thank you for the correction, and sorry Azizi!

Doesn't negate my point though.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:20 AM

Bonnie Greer doesn't own the golly jam badges personally. They are on museum display as items of cultural history. To cite them is as fatuous as Nasty Nick's attempt to smear Jack Straw for the stance his father took on conscription before he was even born.

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion? Baroness Warsi's first name is Sayeeda.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Ed.
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:28 AM

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion?

If you have to ask that, then you're a total fool...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:29 AM

"And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion? Baroness Warsi's first name is Sayeeda."

I've admitted to confusion, sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:31 AM

Just a thought ahead of the inevitable next time The Beeb let him back on QT (cos let's face it, there's no way they'll pass up the sky-high viewing figures it'll generate!) Where was Benjamin Zephaniah? He's been on QT a few times in the past: he's witty, articulate, thought-provoking, Black British, a genuinely nice bloke so far as I can tell... well, everything that Griffin isn't, basically! Anyone else think he'd be a good candidate to make Quasimodo look even more dopey than he already does?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:43 AM

Mr Green....Agree absolutely.
Benjamin (who is a really nice guy BTW!)...How about Billy Bragg,...you can add more names here,!
Sticking up sad old politicians, who are being too careful of their comments, ahead of an election in a few months time...(Got to protect those expensives claims after all..)
Bob Geldorf anyone?
OK...Challenge to you all.
Panellists would be....(Living or Dead!)
1. Nick Griffin
2. ............
3. ............
4. ............
5. ............


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:58 AM

I watched some of the programme,and some of the news coverage of it.I have to say that what frightens and worries me is not the BNP.It's not the "Fascist thugs" who seem to have thoroughly disconcerted many of you out there ( presumably their objective ??) ; what I found most disturbing was the behaviour of the screaming ,lawless rabble who were seemingly hell bent on storming the BBC building,with no regard to the protocols of legal peaceful protest. I feel really sorry for the police on occasions such as this.There are ways in which people can both legitimately and effectively make their views known about organisations like the BNP-----last night's riotous assembly was not,sadly,one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

Okay, for living people, off the top of my head - BZ, Sanjeev Bhaskar (as he's really funny) and Tony Benn (just to show Griffin what a real politician is like!)

If we're going with dead people as well, I'd like to nominate my family's GP, Dr Amal Dharry. I was quite a sickly child (to use a Victorian expression) and I saw a lot of him when I was a toddler. He was patient, kind and knowledgable.

He was stabbed to death in 1981 by a racist thug, for no other motive than because he was Indian. I remember my mum trying to explain to me why he was dead, and even at the age of 5 the idea that someone would kill someone else merely because of the colour of their skin struck me as utterly baffling. I'm now 32 and it still does.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:58 AM

And where, bubblyrat, is your condemnation of the lawless, violent and intimidating thugs seen at every pro-BNP rally - and, indeed, who roam our streets and harass people going about their lawful business? That is what the police have to deal with every day of the year. It is totally legitimate to protest against these fascist thugs. Try to see the bigger picture or you will be accused of prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:02 AM

""There are ways in which people can both legitimately and effectively make their views known about organisations like the BNP-----last night's riotous assembly was not,sadly,one of them.""

Have you noticed anyone here supporting the actions of those rioters?

Before deciding that all the protesters were of the same stamp, it might be wise to scan your memory banks for evidence of all the previous peaceful protests which have been hi-jacked by opposing factions, precisely to evoke the kind of knee jerk response you have just demonstrated.

It may be that some small section of the protesters stupidly carried things too far. It may equally be that planted BNP supporters fomented trouble to make Griffin look like the victim of a witch hunt.

Perhaps we would be wiser to reserve judgement until we KNOW what occurred, otherwise peaceful protest is impossible in the future.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Joe Grundy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:09 AM

Racism also works the other way, Chris.
A lot of Black on White crimes are never publicised.

Overall, I thought Nick Griffin accounted for hisself very well against such a hostile baying mob.

I thought I'd never see the day when the BNP would have 2 MEPs elected, what with me farmer's lung an' all ...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:21 AM

""Racism also works the other way, Chris.
A lot of Black on White crimes are never publicised
""

I don't know what news media YOU follow mate, but my telly screen is regularly, and frequently, passing on the details of black criminals' trials and convictions, as well as white.

I should get rid of that chip on your shoulder for a start. That should ease you breathing problems.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:45 AM

I'm well aware that racism can cut both ways. I'm not a halfwit and don't patronise me. However, my previous post concerned a specific event that is a matter of public record and that affected me personally. I note that you chose not to respond with a similar account of such an event, confining yourself instead to the rather nebulous 'A lot of Black on White crimes'. Why didn't you feel able to do this? Because they're not publicised? Then how do you know about them? Have you had or do you have a friend who has direct experience of such a crime? Or do you take your facts from the School of What Some Bloke Down the Pub Said? I suspect the latter, but am perfectly happy to be shown otherwise through evidence of the kind that I've supplied.

And incidentally Griffin didn't account for himself at all. He hid behind his usual cocktail of lies and inflammatory rhetoric. FFS, his opening gambit was to try and discredit Jack Straw by bringing up that his father was a conchie! Anyone with any confidence in the validity of their message wouldn't have to resort to puerile mud-slinging along the lines of 'my dad's harder than your dad'.

If that's your definition of 'accounting well for yourself' then I shan't wait with baited breath for a cogent and coherent response to my first paragraph!

However, before this gets too divisive, let's try and find some common ground. I too never thought I'd see the day when the BNP got two MEPs elected.

I'll remember it for the rest of my life as the first day I ever felt abjectly ashamed and embarrassed to be English.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:55 AM

As a co-panelleist, wouldn't you have loved to see griffin sitting next to Muhammed Ali in his prime?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

Thank you Tug! That's an image that'll be with me for quite some time!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:01 AM

Well said, Chris. As regards the election of two BNP MEPs, some of us are working to ensure that it doesn't happen again. As a voter in one of the constituencies wherE it happened, I say NOT IN MY NAME.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:10 AM

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion?

LOL!

I don't creep. I leap.

Sometimes I read threads
but don't let out a peep.
Some comments put me to sleep.
And a few have made me weep.

But if I were on that panel.
What Griffen sowed
he would have reaped.
Cause I don't creep. I leap.


-snip-

Okay. I never said that I was a song composer or a rapper.

And I know that adding that "ed" ending to "reaped" means that technically that word doesn't rhyme with "creep". But I wanted to end with a bit of hip-hop braggadocia about how I'd take out that scum Griffin.

So there ya go.

:o)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM

A memory I shall cherish for a very long time.

A member of the public saying to Nick Griffin

"There's a lot of us who would be happy to hold a whip round to buy you a ticket to the Antarctic. That's a colourless landscape which would suit you down to the ground".

And all the weasel could manage was a nod and a sickly grin.

The worst thing that can happen to the BNP is for Nasty Nick to remain their leader.

On a scale of one to ten his credibility is about minus twenty.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:36 AM

From a news report
More than eight million people tuned in to watch Mr Griffin on the programme - around three times the usual number of viewers and just over half of the potential audience.

   hmmmmm, as if they didn't know that would happen. Await ITV and other commercial stations queuing up to cash in on the advertising revenue. people who think he was 'unfairly treated' as he claims wil be calling for him to have a 'proper chance to explain his policies'. I'd wager that more than a few of the disenfranchised are now seeing the BNP in a better light. Well done BBC!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion?

I don't creep. I leap.



I'd have thought being confused by someone with a Tory life peer would be cause for considerable alarm.
And are you really unaware of the overwhelming importance and ubiquity in broadcasting of the Dimbleby dynasty?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:05 AM

http://www.youtube.com/user/QuestionTimeBNP#p/u/0/-jQsTtbR1OU


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:17 AM

Do I hear an echo? ;o)

Here's for true confessions:

I never heard the name "Dimbleby" until last night while reading about the show with Griffin and the rest. And I still know nothing about Mr. Dimbleby except for what Richard wrote in his 23 Oct 09 post about him being "a flagship political commentator for the BBC"
etc.

That's the extent of my knowledge about "the overwhelming importance and ubiquity in broadcasting of the Dimbleby dynasty".

And I know absolutely nothing about Tory life peers, Baroness or otherwise. But-to quote a comment that I made in an above the line thread on another subject-I'm neither proud nor ashamed of that fact.

Some might say that I'm culturally deprived. But I know that it's just a matter of there always being more to learn about other nations as well as about your own nation.

But enough about me. On with the show! As Ed Sullivan used to say.

You do know who Ed Sullivan was, don't you? And if not, maybe it's because you live in a different nation than I do or you're a different age, and have different interest than me.

So The Borchester Echo, please excuse my feeble play on words regarding your screen name and my attempt to include a touch of lightheartedness to this thread. It seems to me that heavy duty threads like this might need a light touch of lightheartedness. But I definitely recognize the seriousness of this subject.

Best wishes,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:21 AM

Sorry, pressed button too soon.

You can see whole thing on that link, G-Man digging himself into a big hole!

One've the highlights, among many, was when an audience questioner's Freudian slip caused a loud ripple of amusement & many nodding heads, when he addressed him as 'DICK'!

Too right, what a dick!!

More 'know your enemy' stuff here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#cite_note-Ryanp62-22


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:23 AM

Azizi,

For your information, David Dimbleby here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dimbleby


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:26 AM

Mr Griffin came across on this programme as an incompetent idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM

"".....an incompetent idiot""

That's about right.

He's not even competent at being an idiot.

How dumb is that?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:51 AM

it is nice to see you making a good and intelligent contribution to the thread JB. keep the in depth analyisis coming please.

now .... did anyone else notice that our loverly nick, kept making huge mistakes when he got annoyed or flustered?

like when he was talking about section 28?

i love the fact that 8 million people tuned in, and watched an incompatant fool.

greer, although funny, was abit of a wasted seat as far as i could see.

someone said something about the consevartive woman, wazzi? is it?
that she was blatantly homophobic? i have never heard of her before.

most of what she was saying made sense, she was the one who tackled immigration with any sort of forward vision as far as i can remember. i will rewatch the programme just to make sure of this.

i thought jack straw was very good at not letting nick draw him into the my daddy did this arguement. it must have been very tempting.

on the whole i thought the programme was brilliant. nick had the oppotunity to speak up, but was happy to let them others do most of the work. he came accross as way in over his head.
he tried to makehim selk more likeable by laughing at himself, and was sucking up too much to greer. in normal cercomstances we would have blanked her or insulted her, but knew he had to appear reasonable. greer did turn her back on him alot, i am not sure if this was a snub, or she was talking to the audiance?

have a great day everyone

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:58 AM

Thanks for posting those links, Mr. Happy.

Here's a link to a post-program discussion that I find interesting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2009/10/do_you_speak_race.html

Do you speak Race?
Mark Easton | 12:42 UK time, Friday, 23 October 2009


[And let me say at the onset that I have absolutely no clue who Mark Eston is and what his politics are either.]

Here's an excerpt of that blog post:

"A telling moment on last night's Question Time did not involve Mr Griffin at all. It was an exchange between Jack Straw and a black woman in the audience.

This is what she said:

"The parties must listen because, one of the things, I am sitting here and every time Jack Straw or somebody or one of the panel says 'Afro-Caribbean', I am cringing."
(The justice minister holds up his hands in apology.)

"Afri-CAN Ca-RIB-bean!" the woman corrects him.
Discussing race in this country is to walk on egg-shells. When even an experienced signed-up multiculturalist like Mr Straw gets caught out, it becomes obvious how difficult it is even to find the language in which to conduct a grown-up debate about it...

People generally don't want to offend and the shifting sands of acceptable racial vocabulary mean that many dare not even step into the territory. It is a dangerous domain - one false move and you are branded a bigot.

Part of the problem has been the absence of formal public debate about race. Mainstream politicians have tended to opt out or dodge the subject, so the boundaries of acceptable discourse are poorly understood - even by our Parliamentarians.

Last night's programme saw all the panellists try to shift the discussion away from the question of race onto less troublesome terrain.

"This is not a race debate, this is a debate about resources," said the Conservative Sayeeda Warsi, adding that she didn't want a BNP-style discourse "about black and brown people". (I suspect few white politicians would ever dare employ the phrase "brown people", incidentally). All are happy to see the discussion shifted onto safer ground.

Nick Griffin used the expression "indigenous British people" to describe the constituency he seeks to represent.

"The whites!" retorted jack Straw, keen to push the BNP leader into the race debate. "Skin colour's irrelevant, Jack, skin colour's irrelevant," Mr Griffin responded, as anxious as the rest to avoid the elephant traps of a debate about ethnicity."


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:04 AM

Some stuff herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Griffinabout Griffin's father.

Looks like the lad underwent some brainwashing during his early socialisation


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM

Someone ought to tell Griffin that when you start insulting someone else's parents       you've lost.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM

Mark easton is a BBC journalist.
He hosts a regular blog on their website.http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:08 AM

To be honest, I did think it was a bit daft for that audience member to get hung up on a relatively minor point of semantics when there were far deeper issues at hand. You have to choose your battles, really. Dimbleby even said "coloured" at one point, but it was allowed to pass by the panel and the audience, presumably because his actual interrogation of the policies of the BNP were rather more important.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:10 AM

Here's another excerpt of that same blog post written by Mark Easton:

"This is a problem because it is the recent arrival of people from different ethnic backgrounds into predominantly white communities which is the cause of one of the anxieties underlying the programme. It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently. But neighbourhoods are being transformed because people from other cultures are moving in there. Rapid social change is often linked to ethnic change - and people are disturbed by that."

-snip-

Of course, this is Mr. Easton's opinion, and I'm not sure that I buy his view that "It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently."

That was my first reaction to that sentence. My second reaction was to wonder how and when new arrivals to Britain are behaving differently. Speaking for myself (as I always do), some differences in behavior would cause me concern (like people walking around with no clothes on) while others would be either interesting, positive, or none of my business (like people chosing to wearing their tradition clothing or eat their foods from their culture of origin).

Here's a reader's comment to that particular portion of that blog post:

#3-1:13pm on 23 Oct 2009, The Magic Tramp wrote:


[The above excerpt quoted]

"There is a little logical inconsistency in your approach Mark Easton, ironically, one you share with the BNP.

The claim that people are concerned about immigrant behaviour is not born out by the facts. For example, Mr Griffin complained that he had a less sympathetic audience in West London because it is no longer a British city, that the 'indigenous' community is in the minority. However, the audience appeared to have a skin-colour mix that would suggest a high percentage of of them would be considered British by the BNP, yet there was an overwhelming support from the vast majority of the audience for positions that were against the BNP.

Similarly, if you look at the distribution of BNP candidates for local councils they tend to come from areas of low immigration. And, if the recently released BNP membership lists are to be taken at face value, then the membership from areas with high levels of mixed ethnicities is incredibly low.

So how is it possible that the rise of the BNP, and the general rise of racial concern in the population, is engendered by different cultural behavior but does not seem to provoke political action from the white populations in those areas?"


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM

' Of course, this is Mr. Easton's opinion, and I'm not sure that I buy his view that "It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently." '

Mark Easton may well be referring to the fact that the largest sector of new immigrants in Britain DON'T look different - they are Eatern European. But they do, of course, behave differently - they have specialist shops that sell their food, they speak their own language in the street. Because new immigrants gravitate to places where they have friends or relatives to help them get a foot on the ladder, immigration does tend to be concentrated in particular neighbourhoods and towns - twas always thus, and not just in Briatin. So yes, SOME neighboruhoods (by no means all) are experiencing very rapid change. The problem comes when inflammatory and inaccurate reporting in the press, or within politics, exaggerates this change to make it appear to be the rule, rather than the exception. Given that Britain is still something like 90% white British, it really IS the exception: a number of places in Britain are very culturally diverse. An awful lot more aren't. What happens, IMHO, is that the former situation is used as a bugbear with which to frighten people living in largely white, middle-class places: "It'll be your street next. They'll take away your way of life! They'll make you live like they do!" People are frightened of change - they are told change will be forced upon them. They become defensive and insular.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:12 PM

You are quite right, Ruth. I used to be involved in multi-cultural and ant-racist eduction in Leicester. here there were several areas with high a concentration of people from Asia, and of asians expelled from East Africa. It was in the White Islands and Highlands, however, that one would met the most explicit racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:27 PM

I've several questions about British cultural practices/terms:

1. What is the meaning of the red flower lapel pins that the moderator and all the panelists wore during last night's Question Time show? (I also noticed that one audience member-The Black man who asked about immigration-wore the same pin.)

2. What does "Do a whip up" mean? I'm guessing it means informally gather up money from various people, like the [American] saying? "pass the hat." Is that right?

3. I've noticed that a number of commentators on British blogs and on Mudcat also don't always capitalize racial and ethnic referents such as "Asian" [see Tug the Cox's post above]. Is this a commonly accepted practice? It appears to be and if so the practice is different in the USA. I believe this could be negatively misconstrued if people aren't aware of the differences in such a cultural/national practice.

4. With regard to the statement "It was in the White Islands and Highlands, however, that one would met the most explicit racism.", are those locations in Britain? I suppose the name "White Islands" has nothing to do with skin color. Is that right?

I'm asking these questions just because I'm curious, though I realize these are minor points.

Thanks in advance for your responses.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

Bragga-what?

Azizi - have you turned into Mary Hip-hoppins?

Your rhyme was truly Supercalafrajalistic-hip-hop-braggadocious.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:53 PM

1. "What is the meaning of the red flower lapel pins"

Poppy's - worn to commemorate those who died in the first world war.

Sold to raise money to help war veterans and worn on poppy day.

2. Not "whip up" but "whip around"

"To Whip up" would be "to incite" as in "whip up a storm/frenzy" etc though someones gran might be known to "whip up a meal" at short notice.

3. In the UK Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are commonly referred to as Asians though they might be better described as south asians as opposed to other general Asian groups such as indochinese or orientals.

These terms refer to geographical generalities.

4 - sorry no idea :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:54 PM

Thanks, Lox. I think.

(I think. Therefore I am.)

Beside that, I'm procrastinating focusing on a project that I should be working on.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

I am sure someone will cross-post but

1. The red badges are poppies - worn for remeberence day - Novemeber 11.

2. A whip round is a collection. To whip up is to agitate. A political whip is a ficed party line, so this all depends on context.

3. The capitalisation is, I suspect, just a web based movement away from proper punctuation.

4. White Islands and Highlands - Over to you Tug. It's a new one on me.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

White in white highlands and islands does indeed refer to skin colour.

    In most cities that have attracted non-white immigration, the poorer quarters in what is known as the zone in transition are ususually inhabited first, as housing is more affordable. Alongside these are prosperous areas with expensive housing...the highlands, and areas outlying the chief areas of immigration, the islands.
Asian is normally capitalised when referring to a group of people, if it is a noun rather than an adjective,lower case if it is a more general adjective. I'm a lazy typer!
The red flowers were the British Legion Poppy appeal for remembrance Sunday, raising funds for the welfare of former servicemen. No celebrity or politician could afford to be seen without one at this time of year. Try to wear a white one ( for peace) and you're likely to be lynched.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, a political whip is a FORCED party line. Unless it involves Sadie Whiplash, when there is almost always a Lord involved...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

There is slightly more to the wearing of poppies in this situation because Griffin has been trying to appropriate it to his cause along with Churchill and the Spitfire. much to the annoyance of the British Legion. See here - http://www.nothingbritish.com/09/bnp-news-round-up/.

I must say Tug's reference to the White Islands and Highlands confused me as well. The Highlands and Islands usually refers to the wilder and less populated parts of mainland Scotland and the islands down it's west coast. Relatively poor areas compared to the prosperous Lowlands.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

"Thanks, Lox. I think."

Doh - just reread the capitalization question.

And then reread my answer.

I answered a different question - take no notice of my bad grammer.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:15 PM

I appreciate the responses, including the pm responses that I received.

I thought I was following what was written quite well (What with British English being a foreign language and all) until the mention of Sadie Whiplash and her involvement with a Lord.

No disrespect intended, but the name "Sadie Whiplash" reminds me of Snidely Whiplash, a character in "the tongue-in-cheek Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties segments of The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show by American animation pioneer Jay Ward."

And the mention of "a Lord" is foreign to me as a 'UnitedStater' since we don't have any Lords beside "the Lord" (which I know you weren't refering to].

I know this is just a diversion from the more serious discussions about fascism and racism and immigration and more.

Yet these comments illustrate how assumptions about cultural "givens" can be misunderstood.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:22 PM

Poppy's - worn to commemorate those who died in the first world war.

The fallen of ALL wars I believe, although it is commemorated on the anniversary of the end of WW2, Armictice Day, Novemeber 11. Good camapaign poster this year showing the lone coffin of a soldier fallen in Afghanistan.

Azizi - You are kidding me? I bet you have never heard of Bishops riding round on kiddies tricycles while being pelted with cream cakes next. Do the have NO decent perversions in the US?:-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM

I ended up being sickened by the whole thing, so much so that I haven't been able to put finger to keyboard until now.

Yes, Griffin is an odious crud, and God knows he asked for it - and deserved it. But watching the spectacle of four panellists, one MC and I don't know how many audience members all tearing into him was like watching the town bully receiving the kicking of his life. I ended up wanting to shout enough is enough.

To make things worse, I do not think last night's QT did enough to expose the inconsistencies and contradictions of Griffin's position. The debate seemed to go round in circles with various panellists becoming hung up on what constitutes ethnicity. I don't know, but I do not what constitutes a first class prat, and he was sitting just on Dimbleby's left side.

When the programme was first mooted, I predicted Griffin would end up getting massacred, and that's certainly what happened. However, I was hoping then that the rest of the panel would, by reason of intelligent debate, force out of Griffin, the said inconsistencies, and show that they are the inevitable end-product of trying to launder an ideology as nauseous as fascism.

Positive points? Well, it had to be good to see the extent to which fascism is still reviled in this country, and that the Nick Griffins of this world cut no ice with decent, thinking people. It was also good to have confirmed something which I've long suspected; that the man is a complete buffoon who couldn't lead a parade of donkeys. I've read, and listened to, some of his more moronic statements, about dropping unwanted immigrants out of planes over Africa, or about sinking ships of illegal immigrants, and wondered how anyone with a Cambridge degree and a public school education, and a modicum of intelligence, and a desire to make it as a credible politician, could come out with such guff. Had he, I wondered, been saying these things just to pander to his own supporters? Evidently not.

I'm also left wondering what on earth I've been worried about all this time. Is Griffin the epitome of odium ? Unquestionably. Are his policies anathema to anyone who doesn't walk round with a bucket over their head? Certainly. But a charismatic, eloquent demagogue, who is capable of leading this country into the kind of mass destruction wrought by Hitler and his henchmen ? Never in a million years.

The question I'm now asking myself is, where does the far right go from here? I doubt Griffin's performance did him much harm among BNP supporters in BNP heartlands. Indeed, he may experience a slight surge in sympathetic support. But whether or not QT got to the heart of the matter or not, for everybody else, he has been exposed as the emperor with no clothes; as the man behind the curtain shouting "Take no notice of that man behind the curtain", in the Wizard of Oz.

But Griffin has been extremely successful in one respect. His attempts to carve out a 'constitutional' popular far right party, and sell it as the patriotic way forward, have pushed the more overtly extremist elements into the background. British fascism has gone through a number of phases since the second world war. It began as a group of outright nazis, swastikas and all, who were oblivious to the fact that we'd just defeated, and been sickened by, the very ideology they were trying to sell us. They then tried donning various shades of respectability, but still racist, still undeniably fascist, and still fooling no-one. Then Griffin decided to take the respectable image as far as it would go, and he found out last night that it will not stretch far enough to hide the real agenda of the BNP.

I'd like to nurse a quiet hope that last night's debacle will mark the beginning of the end of the BNP; that enough people will now have seen through them and through their pathetic attempts to make a constitutional silk purse out of a fascist sow's ear.

But at the same time, I have a nagging feeling that some of those fascists who realise the democratic process is a dead end, will return to the more orthodox methods of fascism; of jack boots and street parades and terrorisation of ethnic and social minorities. Keep your powder dry, folks. We just might need it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:31 PM

Just a ps to the above. Did anybody notice, almost at the end of Question Time, Griffin accused the BBC of being ultra-left? I'm surprised none of the media seemed to pick that one up.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:33 PM

Not really off the subject:

I just clicked on that webpage again and noticed how the hero of this cartoon series Dudley Do-Right is drawn as a blong haired White man. His lady love (Nell Fenwick) is also drawn as a White woman (with red hair). And Dudley rides a white horse.

But "Whiplash is the stereotypical villain, in the style of stock characters found in silent movies and earlier stage melodrama, wearing black clothing, cape, and a top hat, and twirling his long handlebar moustache. He has a henchman named Homer, who usually wears a tuque. In the cartoon's opening segments, Snidely is seen tying Nell Fenwick to a railroad track. He is the antithesis of Do-Right, a picture-perfect stereotype of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police do-gooder.".

-snip-

The writer fails to mention that the villain, Snidely Whiplash, is not White but a kinda greenish color.

Does this matter?

I say Yes, since these stereotypes continue to permeate Western society in myriad ways.

This is an example of how deeply rooted, pernicious, and often unconscious institutional racism can be.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: paula t
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

It pains me to say it , but I believe that once some misguided person had decided to give Griffin the publicity and credibility of being on question time, the panel should have avoided the temptation to "gang up on him". That could be seen in some quarters as bullying. The last thing we needed was for him to become some sort of victim.
He should have been made to answer the usual questions about the recession, and other current affairs.I'm sure that would have shown him up as someone with tunnel vision, who has nothing of value to say, and no idea what to do about unemployment,crime, etc - issues which greatly trouble the people who voted for him .That would have been the only value in upholding the right to free speech.(Although why he has this right when he regularly commits the crime of inciting racial hatred I do not know.)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM


You do know who Ed Sullivan was, don't you?


Of course I do and although I would never willingly watch such unremitting crap (in common with The Simpsons and Twin Peaks), I am sufficiently aware of the content (or lack thereof) not to lump such productions indiscriminately with the current affairs output of the most celebrated trio so far in the annals of broadcasting. I have no knowledge of the production rigours applied to David Dimbleby's programmes, never having worked on them, but when I was attached to brother Jonathan's On The Record, the standards of research demanded into issues such as the BNP predecessor the National Front and its French equivalent the Front Nationale were the highest I have encountered in broadcasting or print journalism. The annual Richard Dimbleby lectures stand as a testament to the outstanding career of their late father.

As for QT panellist Sayeeda Warsi, a Tory Shadow Cabinet member for something meaningless, I found it mildly amusing and extremely bizarre that someone managed to confuse her with a contributor called "Azizi" who, I imagined, might wish to set the record straight. Whatever. Since she says she neither knows nor cares about anything associated with the British political system, I am obviously wasting my time and breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

Azizi, I think most of us are grateful for, and appreciate your contributions.


Alternative panel suggestion:

Nick Griffin
Tony Benn
Quentin Crisp
Mike Tyson


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:04 PM

"the villain, Snidely Whiplash, is not White but a kinda greenish color.   Does this matter? I say Yes, since these stereotypes continue to permeate Western society in myriad ways.

I can't see that prejudice against green people is that serious a problem at this time. But in any case, I'd think that when it comes to green characters, Kermit has a much higher profile than Snidely Whiplash, and surely everyone loves Kermit.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Joe Grundy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:06 PM

Tug,

Putting Mohammad Ali (fka Cassius Clay) in his prime, up against a comparative 7 year old Nick Griffin is not a fair shot.
doh....


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:07 PM

I explained here why I thought my name called to mind the name of Baroneess Warsi.

**
Kevin, I appreciate your comment about Kermit the Frog. However, because of the almost total absence of Black & Brown* people in cartoons and relative lack of positive Black character on television, the standard depiction of good guys as Whites and bad guys as non-Whites, with black hair and black clothing is troubling.

And couple the fact that the history of animation includes many very negative stereotypical depictions of Black characters with that almost total absence of animated Black & Brown characters, then cartoons are no laughing matter.

* To use Baroness Warsi's words which (by the way, are also appropriate racial terminology in USA).

I've written about race in cartoons on at least one Mudcat thread whose URL I'm not going to hunt for, but here's a hyperlink to an article about that subject:

http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/media/storage/paper932/news/2002/04/05/Focus/Wb.Cartoons.Racist-2248288.shtml

WB Cartoons racist
Video collection reminds of bigotry past
By Craig Smith; Issue date: 4/5/02

****

Here's an excerpt of that article:

"If you were a young kid in the 1980s, you probably spent much of your earliest years watching the WB cartoons of Bugs Bunny and Porky Pig. If you think back hard amidst the laughter, once in awhile appeared a strange 'toon or two with really odd, savage-like dark skinned characters that suffered much embarrassment at the hands of the cartoon heroes. We were too young to realize it then, but this was the racist legacy of cartooning from the middle of the 20th century...

In Leonard Maltin's Of Mice and Magic, the famous Warner Brothers' cartoonist Walter Lantz gave this quote regarding TV censorship: "The first thing that happened was the elimination of all my films that contained Negro characters; there were eight such pictures. But we never offended or degraded the colored race and they were all top musical cartoons, too."

After viewing the Lantz cartoon included on the Goodtimes tape, I'm glad that Lantz didn't purposely try to "offend or degrade" anyone: He did enough damage without thinking about it. Virtually every stereotype one could apply to African-Americans is used in Scrub Me Mama With a Boogie Beat (1941). According to the imagery of the film, Blacks are lazy, shiftless creatures a step or two removed from monkeys until they hear music or see an attractive woman. Then they suddenly possess endless energy, albeit directed more towards dancing and singing than working...

Minstrel-style entertainment was featured as the punch line in the Bugs Bunny short Fresh Hare(1942) in which Bugs' last wish before a Canadian firing squad is that he were in Dixie. Native Americans were mocked mercilessly in Big Heel-Watha (1944), a Tex Avery cartoon in which Red got to play an Indian princess.

Among the worst examples, Tokio Jokio (1943), featured a parody of newsreels that turns terribly bigoted. The film opens with a rooster about to crow as the sun rises on Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun. The rooster turns into a sinister, slant-eyed vulture with a thick Oriental accent. The rest of the movie contains sight gags mixed in with horrible caricatures of the Asian race. Obviously a result of wartime hysteria, the intent of the film seems to be to present the Japanese as a subhuman race. Disturbing as it is, this is a far cry from the "just for children" attitude most people take towards cartoons."


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:15 PM

With regard to the minor topic of my name being used by mistake instead of Baronness Warsi's name, I understand how that could happen as I note on this much more playful Mudcat thread.

**

I don't feel that I need to address any other comments that The Borchester Echo made in her 23 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM
post as my questions and comments about British politics, culture, and history on various Mudcat threads, including this one are evidence of my interest in learning more about that nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:16 PM

Ah, I see I linked to that thread two times. Well, double the pleasure and all that jazz.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:29 PM

Did any of you read the Times today ? they rated Nick Griffin's performance on Question Time better than that of the Justice Minister Jack Straw who has the reputation as one of the best debaters in the House of Commons.

Sam Coates, the newspaper's chief political correspondent gave the British National Party chairman 8 out of 10 and said that he had achieved his game plan of acknowledging that "the elite" hates him, denying his extremism and concentrating on his key message of standing up for the British. The appearance will certainly see the BNP vote go up next election.

Coates said Nick was a vote winner because he looked sincere when saying that journalists deliberately misquoted him to make him look like "a monster"

He even acknowledged that Nick was a crowd pleaser when he said: "You people [pointing at Mr Straw] wouldn't even let us have our name [the English] on the census form"

In summary, The Times correspondence said: "Despite a couple of early wobbles, he got his message across in an hour of primetime TV, and by portraying himself as hated, made himself look like a victim of the establishment.

Jack Straw got a lower score but was criticised for claiming that Labour had immigration under control. A lot of people were unaware that Straw's father spend WW2 in prison while Nick Griffin's father did his patriotic duty in the Royal Air Force.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:04 PM

Tug,

Putting Mohammad Ali (fka Cassius Clay) in his prime, up against a comparative 7 year old Nick Griffin is not a fair shot.
doh...



erm NG now, as he is, MA now, as he was. Sorry about the imagination bypass, Chris Green realised it was about image fabrication, as I guess did everyone else....or do you have another point to make?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:35 PM

Overall disappointed. I was happy that democratic priciples won and Griffin was allowed to appear on QT. I was also happy that the Beeb did not fall into the trap of censorship. But I think that Griffin got far too easy a ride.

Jack Straw did not impress me overall. Every time he spoke, he went off at a tangent and generally muddled his point with irrelevancies - like referring to "his constituency" upwards of a dozen times (count them). By contrast the LibDem guy was lucid, concise, to the point and sharp. The Baroness too - she only disappointed me a little bit the only time she waffled, when confronted with her own past homophobic statements. Greer descended to childish levels of taunting - and yet at times I think she was the only one with an appropriate approach, in my book.

The really disappointing thing for me was that the majority (all?) questions from the floor and during the conversation were of the kind that asked Griffin to explain why he has in the past made this or that statement. That gave him the luxury of appearing the victim of an orchestrated attack, a point which he is already using in the media. And odious and slimy though he is, and nervous as hell on the night, these points will fly over the heads of the slogan-driven masses, but the "victimisation" will stick. The questions simply glanced off his scales, of course he did not answer them directly or satisfactorily, how could he, and why should he when it is easy to bat them away with politician's trick-speak? But he used the rain of direct questions to present himself as the victim.

Instead, I believe that one of two approaches would have been better: Have questions phrased so as to allow each panellist to describe their policies - which after all is the best way to expose the BNP; and to ridicule rather than attack Griffin (that is where Greer occasionally scored for me). The latter might have drawn him out much better than the "attacks", and is a much better weapon against bigots and bullies.

Tonight the panellists on Have I Got News For You had the right attitude. When Griffin's picture appeared during one of the questions, they all feigned no recognition or interest with perfect deadpan.

Whereas last night I was reminded of Les Barker's wise line about not arguing with a fool, because he is arguing with one too. At best you appear foolish yourself. At worst, you elevate him to the level of wise man, in the eyes of other fools. You cannot win. Ask him simply for his view on things - his policies - or ridicule him.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM

i do agree that asking nick about policies would have exposed him even more. but on the whole i think, it was always going to be this way, the questions centered on the past instead of the future.

i have mixed feelings about him putting a complaint in about bullying. if he ever got to parliment, he would have a far worse time of it.

politicians should be used to being under pressure, should be used to the scrutiny and should be used to being hecckled and questioned.
if he can't handle a very small group of people and keep his focus, how on earth would he manage at westminster?

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:24 AM

I concur wholeheartedly with George P.
The majority of wavering voters, who probably hadn't even heard of QT before, but tuned in because of the media circus, will sadly have missed the salient points and just seen someone they didn't know being bullied by other people they didn't know. That will be their memory of the programme. The consequence? In the first Opinion Poll since thursday, published today shows the BNP going up in the ratings! The only way to defeat these people is by making damn sure you go and vote in the next election. I don't care who for, just vote.
It did occur to me, whilst watching the coverage of the Battle of Wood Lane (Outside the BBC TV centre) just how many of the protesters had actually voted in the last election? Obviously this is impossible to know, but my thoughts would be, by not voting, you have given up your right to legitimately protest at anything.

As is clearly known. The BNP got their 2 MEPs not by people voting for them (Their actual number of votes was lower that time than in the previous European election), No, but by the fact that substantially fewer people voted for anyone at all.

It's our hand that has ability to break the BNP, by putting a cross on a piece of paper. It might be useful also if the main political parties would come up with some cogent policies re the immigration issue in this country. If they don't, then the BNP will continue to gain ground in certain areas of this country.

Apathy on all sides is not an option


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:11 AM

Good points, Goeroge.
I wouldn;t worry too much about the polls yet. UK Polling Report, which is a seething mass of psephological anoraks, dissects the latest YouGov poll and concludes:
So while the BNP support is up, it is nothing significant. 2-3% has been pretty much the norm for their support over the last couple of months, and the most recent YouGov/Telegraph poll at the end of September also had them at 3%...

...Anyway, the poll will really be looked at for evidence of how the BNP's Question Time appearance has gone down, rather than the main parties. As well as voting intention, YouGov asked whether people had positive or negative opinions of the smaller parties – questions that it last asked in June straight after the European elections. Back then 11% of people had a positive impression of the BNP and 72% a negative impression, today's figures are 9% positive and 71% negative, so no sign of any improvement in people's opinion of the BNP either. Despite all the hoohah and protests, despite the millions of people who watched Question Time, it doesn't seem to have made any significant difference to how the public view them, or how likely they are to support them (or at least, not yet).


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:48 AM

Did any of you read yesterday's Times ? they rated Nick Griffin's performance on Question Time better than that of the Justice Minister Jack Straw who has the reputation as one of the best debaters in the House of Commons.

Sam Coates, the newspaper's chief political correspondent gave the British National Party chairman 8 out of 10 and said that he had achieved his game plan of acknowledging that "the elite" hates him, denying his extremism and concentrating on his key message of standing up for the British. The appearance will certainly see the BNP vote go up next election.

Coates said Nick was a vote winner because he looked sincere when saying that journalists deliberately misquoted him to make him look like "a monster"

He even acknowledged that Nick was a crowd pleaser when he said: "You people [pointing at Mr Straw] wouldn't even let us have our name [the English] on the census form"

In summary, The Times correspondence said: "Despite a couple of early wobbles, he got his message across in an hour of primetime TV, and by portraying himself as hated, made himself look like a victim of the establishment.

Jack Straw got a lower score but was criticised for claiming that Labour had immigration under control. A lot of people were unaware that Straw's father spend WW2 in prison while Nick Griffin's father did his patriotic duty in the Royal Air Force.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:07 AM

I think that what people's parents did in the war shouldn't be held against them.
The Queen Mum was always praised because she stayed steadfastly in nearby Windsor when London was getting bombed, and made frequent forays out to meet the public.
Contrast that with my own dad, who scarpered over to France when war was declared, came back only briefly, then pissed off again to Africa, Italy and then Germany. The shame will always be with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:21 AM

Thanks GUEST Edthefolkie.

It was probably foolish to have expected a normal programme anyway, considering the hype surrounding it.
The more Nick Griffin got attacked, the more I felt that, there's another voter changing sides!
So, Yes, it was right that he was on the show. But, maybe other issues like the MPs expenses scandal, The Postal dispute, Bankers bonuses, (etc) should have been discussed. Maybe we would then have found out a little more about the BNPs policies over other subjects, and not just immigration.
I think that its highly unlikely that the BNP will gain any real foothold in the mainstream of British politics, despite all the main parties shooting themselves in the foot at every available opportunity.

But to make sure they don't. We all have to go and vote for someone. Maybe Green is the answer?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:26 AM

What Jack Straw should have said.....' So Nick, your father fought the Nazis? Pity you don't do the same!'


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,surreysinger
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:35 AM

Actually Edthefolkie, your statement regarding the Times article is both incorrect and misleading. For what it's worth,the scorecard which Sam Coates used allocated 7/10 to both Jack Straw and Nick Griffin - in fact David Dimbleby was the winner (if there was such a thing) with an overall of 8/10, whilst Bonnie Greer came out bottom of the poll with 2/10.

Your analysis completely ignores the fact that the so called score card was based on a total of five facets of the individual's performance each of which presumably contributed towards the overall score -
Game plan
Vote winner
Vote loser
Crowd pleaser
Exit poll


Just to set out exactly what Mr Coates said in his analysis for each of the individuals

Jack Straw

Game plan: Arguing that the BNP is a one-policy party where everything flows from their views on race

Vote winner: Demolishing Mr Griffin's argument that European law prevented him from giving his views on the Holocaust

Vote loser:Claiming that Labour has immigration under control and that it was not the reason people vote for the BNP in the North West

Crowd pleaser:Pointing out Mr Griffin went to Libya "to get the funding they gave to the IRA"

Exit Poll: Of all the politicians Mr Straw was the most passionate and quick witted. But he disputed rather than acknowledged voter dissatisfaction.



Nick Griffin

Game Plan:To acknowledge that "the elite" hates him, deny extremisim and concentrate on key messagees on standing up for "the English"

Vote winner:Looking sincere when saying that journalists misquoted him, and make him look like "a monster"


Vote loser: Suggesting a wizard of the Ku Klux Klan is "non violent"

Crowd pleaser: "You people (pointing to Mr Straw) wouldn't let us have our name (the English) on the census form"

Exit Poll: Despite a couple of early wobbles, he got his key dog whistle messages across in an hour of prime time TV and by portraying himself as hated, made himself look like a victim of "an establishment"

On the basis of that it is clear that Griffin did not earn points from Mr Coates on the strength of his political debate ... more by playing to the gallery, and manipulating the situation to his own ends ... witness the use of the words "key dog whistle messages".

And nowhere in his section of the article is there any mention of the matter of the parentage of either of the protagonists.

(Points achieved in the article by the other panellists were : Chris Huhne 5/10, Baroness Warsi 4/10, David Dimbleby 8/10 and Bonnie Greer 2/10)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,surreysinger
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:43 AM

and the impression I get from Mr Coates' comments is that the reason he goit the format of the programme gave Griffin an opportunity to present his chosen face (ie beleaguered, hated, bullied and put upon) on prime time TV ... in other words, he achieved his game plan ???


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM

Curious, I thought that Jack Straw was not firm enough in his defence of current immigration control policies, and should really have smacked down the little Englanders (of all colours).   But we all know where the Times stands on the political spectrum and who controls it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,surreysinger
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM

???? Where did the gobbledygook come from ... please ignore "the reason he goit" ... no idea where that came from!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM

Gervase Webb — I was in London, aged 8, during the Blitz; you obviously were not, young man. The King & Queen did NOT spend the War even as far away as Windsor, they spent it at home at Buckingham Palace, in Central London; making frequent visits to bombed out parts of East London — and other parts. I was present for their visit when my N London school, Garden Suburb, was bombed out and unfit to use in 1940, so I had many weeks off school. An air raid was in progress at the time of their inspection of the damage, and smoke puffs from a 'dog-fight' high overhead were clearly visible. But away in Windsor, I repeat, was where Their Majesties were not; Central London was where they were.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM

"What Jack Straw should have said.....' So Nick, your father fought the Nazis? Pity you don't do the same!'"

Tug, Nick Griffin's father (Edgar Griffin) is a technically a conservative, but with very obvious leanings to the far right. In 2001, he was sacked from Ian Duncan Smith's election team because of his BNP connections.

What's more, Edgar Griffin's wife is a leading BNP member and has stood for them both in local and national elections.

On top of all that, who held young master Nick's hand when he attended his first National Front meeting at the tender age of fifteen? Why, none other than dear old Dad of course.

(Sorry about the sarcasm. Not directed at you. It's just that it helps prevent me vomitting every time I think about them.)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM

And can we not fall into the trap of agreeing with Griffin about the status of conscientious objectors? I have a friend who regards any country which does not allow pacifists the right to abstain from fighting as not worth fighting for - and he would fight, granted that caveat. Allowing non-combatant status is one of the things that makes Britain worth being proud of, in my book, along with a lot of other traditions the BNP would regard as un-British. Like being open to those fleeing oppressive regimes like Hitler's.

Incidentally, I have spent the whole of my life not eating Hartley's jams etc because the MD of the factory would not allow the Pioneer Corps working on restoring it to functionality after bombing to eat in the canteen with the workers because they were conchies. (The Pioneer Corps did war work associated with the Royal Engineers, and would say that some were in it for their convictions and some for their previous convictions. They cleared bombed sites and collected bricks for rebuilding. And the clearing was not a nice option. Or safe.)

I'm not aware of the details of Jack Straw's father's war, but I have an uncle who had fled Germany, and spent time interned - no choice. (I think that was in WWI, but the same applies in WWII.)It is possible that the Straws were in the same boat. Don't forget that escaped Jews were interned in the same camps as Nazis and had to put up with antisemitic behaviour. Not one of the bits of British behaviour that is worth being proud of.

But whatever the truth, scorn for pacifism is not, surely, something we should allow Griffin to be right in. And it is not, in my experience, something that those who have been in active service share. The only person I knew do it in company had been in the Catering Corps.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:35 AM

Penny, are you sure that escaped Jews were interned in the same camps as natzis?
Were they interned at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM

And while trying to find out about Jack Straw's dad, I found some interesting stuff about Griffin's. He does, wherever and whenever he was in the RAF, seem to have been ground crew.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:58 AM

Keith, I can't quote sources - I think it was a BBC program - and I can't remember which camp it was, but I do recall hearing how the Germans would sing the Horst Wessel outside Jewish services. I don't think I would have invented it. Or my anger on hearing it.
It must have been pretty bad for non-Nazi Germans in that atmosphere.

Anyway, Straw senior was in Wandsworth and the Exeter as a staunch member of the Peace Pledge Union who would do no war work (Some PPU people did). I think we need to remember that many of those pacifists were reacting against WWI, and it took time to realise that WWII was different.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:03 AM

Thanks Penny.
I am sure you are right, but it gives the wrong impression to say that Jews were interned.
Germans were interned, including those who were Jewish.
Non German Jews were not interned I think.
keith


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:08 AM

I did say escaped Jews, implying, I thought, those from Germany.

Here's a bit from Encyclopaedia Britannica and the page for those who can read more.

A Jewish Refugee

Georg, whose family name was Igersheimer — before his parents very much to his dismay changed it to Iggers — was distantly related to Walter Igersheimer and had never met him personally, but knew something about Igersheimer's family and the conditions of" their emigration after the Nazi accession to power in 1933. Georg's father was a cousin of Walter's father, the internationally famous ophthalmologist Josef Igersheimer, with whom Georg corresponded. Wilma did civilian war service in the Canadian postal censorship, where she read the letters of German prisoners of war and of Jewish refugee internees and became acquainted with the conditions under which both were kept and could compare them. She also came to know a number of the Jewish internees after they were released.

The strength of Igersheimer's book is its eye-witness character, which throws light on the conditions of internment. Igersheimer came to England from Germany in 1933 at the age of sixteen, when his parents went to Istanbul, where his father had accepted a professorship after being dismissed as a Jew from the medical faculty at the University of Frankfurt. Walter was well integrated into British life, did very well academically, and was about to complete his medical studies when, in May 1940, he was suddenly arrested and placed into an internment camp without access to lawyers and cut off from communication with the outside.

Early in the war, the approximately 70,000 German and Austrian citizens in Great Britain were placed into three categories: A — persons deemed suspect and to be taken into custody immediately; B — persons who were to remain at liberty subject to certain restrictions; and C — persons in the vast majority, who were declared "Refugees from Nazi Oppression" exempt from internment and restrictions. Igersheimer was placed into Category C. Nevertheless, after the Nazi invasion of the Low Countries and the defeat of France, most of the persons in Category C were arrested. The motivation was, in part, hysteria about fifth columnists being hidden among them, but also xenophobia, although anti-Semitism cannot be totally discounted.



Igersheimer describes the terrible conditions on the S.S. Etrick, into which Jewish refugees were packed together with Nazi prisoners; food was scant and poor, and sanitary conditions were terrible. Strikingly, the Nazi officers received privileged treatment and ate with the ship's officers. Once in Canada, the internees were met by soldiers with bayonets, surrounded by barbed wire, and placed in overcrowded huts and barracks not intended for that purpose. The Jewish inmates were repeatedly insulted with anti-Semitic slurs by guards. Medical treatment was denied in many cases. Igersheimer, who suffered from glaucoma, and would have gone blind without medication, fortunately had taken along a supply, which carried him over until he was finally treated. Wilma, from the letters she read in postal censorship, was able to compare the conditions of the German prisoners of war, who were treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention, and the Jewish internees, who were not covered by it.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:12 AM

Thanks Penny.
Just a misunderstanding. Remember that Jews escaped to Britain from many countries.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:16 AM

Both my parents were RAF in WW2 but not aircrew.
Many such gave their lives, especially during the Battle of Britain when the airfields were under constant attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:29 AM

Nothing against ground crew. I agree that they were under attack, as were all people in the end, and absolutely vital to the fliers. I was trying to be polite with regard to Griffin senior, and not play the what my dad did in the war game started by his son. There are some doubts being raised on the web about Griffin senior, which don't seem proven at the moment, and which I didn't want to spread without authentication.

I've known a number of RAF people, ground and air, and none were dismissive of pacifists. I have heard of one who reputedly crashed most of his flights and made a point of being scathing about lack of moral fibre in others.

I've also known a Quaker tutor in the OU who had a number of services personnel among her students, and she told me that they had some respect for pacifists.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM

I see somebody took my name in vain at 04:48 this morning - my own fault I suppose as I'm always losing my cookie. At 04:48 I was watching The Shawshank Redemption (again).

I thought Griffin made a complete prat of himself. Feeble grins, personal insults, suspect logic, suspect "facts". That's what he deals in. The audience member who addressed him as "Dick, sorry Nick" had it right. There is little point attempting rational argument with him or his supporters - let's face it, the whole point of the BNP is that it's irrational. But I suppose we have to try.

By the way, I understand that the Spitfire which the BNP used in their publicity was from a POLISH squadron - exquisite irony given their ideas about migrants. I don't think they are very well up on irony though.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

If you want a perfect one minute summary of griffin's contributions follow the link.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM

That's silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM

The King & Queen did NOT spend the War even as far away as Windsor, they spent it at home at Buckingham Palace, in Central London; making frequent visits to bombed out parts of East London — and other parts.
Sorry mate, but they spent the day in London and were driven to Windsor at night. It's a matter of public record. Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret spent their whole time at Windsor.
If you read Chruchill's 'Their Finest Hour', he makes it clear that Mr and Mrs King commuted into London from Windsor. They were unfortunate enough to encounter some daytime raids, but they never had to endure a night raid at Buck House.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:51 PM

Richard, I take it you use 'silly' in its pythonesque meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:05 PM

The cut up job in that video was silly. That is the sort of thing the cretinous BNP do to try to smear their opponents.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:21 PM

Speaking of which I see that the cretinous Sam Hudson on Fakebook has lifted one of my posts above and changed a few key phrases and concepts to try to support the BNP. Doh!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:34 PM

blimey, are you lot still on abaht that old BNP Question Time chestnut ?
doh ......


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:06 PM

Yes Mark, because it made your fuhrer look like a proper wanker. Now fuck off back to nonny-nonny land as 'Mark ye Morris' and leave the real world to the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

Keith and Penny.

You may have already seen this, but in case you haven't, I thought you might find this interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

For everyone ...


    Check this out


    ... enjoy ...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:51 PM

Gervaise ducky, that sort of language is most fowl and unbecoming.
But it's the least I expect from the filthy toenail-popping unwashed leftie rabble.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Peace
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 09:06 PM

The word is 'foul'. Not 'fowl'. There are on-line dictionaries available, Stevens. Go check a few, asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Peace
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:17 PM

Is Mark ye Morris the same person who plays with Paul Bennett? (Longish black hair, 'beard' of sorts and button melodeon?)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Peace
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:48 PM

I THINK a button melodeon. Is this guy playing a button melodeon?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:32 PM

I am pleased Nick Griffin appeared on BBC Question Time.
It showed, to the whole nation"clearly" & without a shadow of a doubt that he has the leader is quite insane and His party have have no serious identity of there own so they resort to stealing other peoples & hench in future should be looked upon has being so low in national loathing that they could pass under the belly of a Rattle Snake
"Wearing a Top Hat"


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:27 AM

200


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:29 AM

"The more that know about the party the stronger it becomes"

You mean like chlamydia or cervical cancer? Weird logic.

200


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:31 AM

You despicable, unprincipled, legal carrion-eating monster! Stealing my 200 like that!

Morning Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:32 AM

Ha! I see the highly crucial question of this debate has been reached: just where did royalty sleep during the war and what did anyone's daddy do? Well, what else to expect from below-the-line peeps who cull what they fondly imagine is "news" via Fox and the Dirty Digger.

Growing up in a region renowned for sectarianism, I recall many tales post-WW2 of German (Jewish or not) émigré businesses - and indeed the synagogue - being vandalised and daubed with pig's blood. Dim people (who didn't even manage the Desmond achieved by their present-day führer) are conditioned to believe that the way to deal with anything "different" is to stamp on it. This is the sole reason why I don't think it was a good move for mainstream politicians (nor the high-profile black BM worker nor the homophobic and otherwise dodgy Asian life peer) to gang up on the odious nasty Nick on mainstream television. He is quite capable of displaying his neanderthal idiocy without fomentation of sympathy from the terminally stupid.

Straw senior at the outbreak of WW2 was a member of the Peace Pledge Union who took the view at that time that hostilities were merely a continuation of the imperialist WW1 and so got banged up. As he didn't stick around for long after Straw junior's birth I doubt if he had much influence on his son's decision to refuse to serve in his school's militaristic cadet force. When I first encountered Jack Straw as NUS president in the late 60s, his stance on peace was well-established. I don't recall if he ever wore the white peace poppy then but I wish he'd worn one instead of the war-glorying Haig "red flower" on QT.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:37 AM

Oh, and when Joe removes Helen, 200 again!

Yes, Helen, I disagree with you. There is a balance to be taken. Those who do apply reason in or to politics, that is to say the vast majority even if they err) will be further repulsed by by the BNP and those who had failed to see what it was and voted for it as a form of rebellion or protest will be helped truly to perceive it and so those things will lose the BNP votes.

Conversely, the pathetic wingers who say that no party represents them (which may be a fact, but if so is largely because their views are repulsive antisocial and economically and genetically illiterate) will be further convinced that they are not represented. They need education, but until they get it that core maybe increased in its diligence in BNP voting.

Further, racist bigoted wannabee authoritarians who did not know about the BNP already (can there really be any that stupid?) will now know more about it. They will therefore be enabled to vote for it - unless they are put off by the incompetence and ignorance the BNP leader displayed.

Thus, although there is a risk that arises from giving the BNP the oxygen of publicity, I am by no means convinced that it will come to pass. Who would be attracted to a party whose leader was shown to be stupid?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:41 AM

Oh, by the way George, when Joe removes Helen you will get your 200 back, unless my "bare" 200 is removed as well in which case you will be 199, and Diane will have an unclaimed 200.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:47 AM

Diane will have an unclaimed 200

I am uninterested in such frivolity, convinced as I am that the subject, properly addressed, is of crucial importance.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:57 AM

Gervaise ducky, that sort of language is most fowl and unbecoming
Marc (see, I can piss around with people's names, too), do you know the difference between 'fowl' and 'foul'?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:01 AM

Yes it is indeed, Diane; but if you can't see the crucial importance of where the King & Queen actually lived during the Blitz, you simply emphasise the fact that YOU WEREN'T THERE, & know sod-all about what it felt like to be there, & would therefore do well to refrain from comment on that particular aspect of the topic whatever. Sorry to address you, whom you know I regard highly, in such a tone: but that particular endeavour on your part at a pejorative putdown was not worthy of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:50 AM

Ah...GUEST Helen Butcher...(What an apt name!)
You are absolutely right. Long may the oxygen of publicity be provided for your party. The only way to negate fascists, (and indeed other extremists) is by confronting them on every available occasion.
(Interesting thought....I hadn't realised that Nick Griffin and Abu Hamza are equally reviled. What an odd pairing that is!)
Now, that would make an interesting Question Time panel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:12 AM

You know, where the King and Queen happened to live during the Blitz is actually pretty important.
If we accept the rose-tinted view that the dear old Queen Mum endured the Blitz shoulder to shoulder with the pearly kings and costermongers of the East End it shows that we're also inclined to accept other received opinions and to rub along with the status quo without challenging things.
The truth is that Harold Nicholson, minister of information in 1940, instructed the newspapers to censor the fact that the Queen was booed on her first visit to the East End, and vegetables were throw at the royal entourage. It was only after there was some minor bomb damage to some outlying buildings in the grounds of Buckingham Palace that she made the comment that she could "look the East End in the face", and she was cheered on a subsequent visit to Aldgate.
Accepting received opinion shows that we're likely to accept what the Mail and Express tell us about immigration without actually looking at the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:32 AM

Ralphie. "You are absolutely right. Long may the oxygen of publicity be provided for your party. The only way to negate fascists, (and indeed other extremists) is by confronting them on every available occasion."

Absolutely. The campaign of vilification of the BNP, of which I am a part, does have its downside. It alerts thickos, racists and skinheads, and all manner of nasties and wierdos to the fact that the BNP exists,and what a nasty organisation it is. Inevitably, it will act as a recruiting sergeant for a small number of them

The point however is to make ordinary, decent middle of the road folks realise that we are not dealing with a constitutional democratic alternative to the existing parties, but with a load of Nazi thugs, just like the ones my father helped to silence during the second world war.

If, for every hundred voters we manage to sway off the BNP, the BNP picks up one new member, we have the numerical advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:35 AM


Conversely, the pathetic wingers who say that no party represents them (which may be a fact, but if so is largely because their views are repulsive antisocial and economically and genetically illiterate)


I guess you mean whingers. I a describe myself as a Socialist. No party in recent elections has stood on a platform remotely resembling mu political beliefs. I therefore claim that no party represents me, and refuse to vote for thatcherites ( con or lab)capitalist lickspittles and apologists for thr 'free' market.To waste a vote on any of these organisations would be to dishonour the chartists, thr tolpudle martyrs, Keir Hardie and all.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:41 AM

Ah yes ... the oxygen of publicity ... and increased membership ...


Can't wait to see the numbers of new BNP members swell dramatically now that there is no longer a bar on people with brown skin joining.


The oxygen of publicity indeed.


YOO HOO ... ANYONE CAN JOIN NOW ......


I'm looking forward to watching the BNP dissolve.


The British National Party - representing British Nationals ... and run by them too.

Soon al the racist members will have to find someone else to represent them.

Only there won't be any legal alternative.


Bye Bye BNP.

Bye Bye Helen.

Bye Bye Mark.


Don't get too upset, you never mattered that much.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:21 AM

I wasn't in London during the blitz though it still wouldn't have interested me where the royals actually went home to to sleep. I hope they were suitably thankful that they had a choice of many domiciles when so many had none. I do however think it would be a better use of that prime slice of real estate in Pimlico where Buck House stands to be redeveloped as social housing for those enduring overcrowded, overpriced and unsuitable accommodation and thus dissuade them from believing the BNP when they spin the line that it's all the fault of "immigrants" taking "their" housing.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:26 AM

The "pathetic whingers" are the urban working class.
They are the ones most effected by mass immigration, in terms of jobs, wages, schools, health and other services.

They do believe, rightly or wrongly, that no one else is listening to them.
There was certainly no one on the Question Time panel who did.
Just the ruling, liberal elite as usual.

That is why BNP is gaining influence in those areas.
If they ever get an articulate and charismatic leader, we are in big trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:30 AM

,The truth is that Harold Nicholson, minister of information in 1940, instructed the newspapers to censor the fact that the Queen was booed on her first visit to the East End, and vegetables were throw at the royal entourage.'

G WEBB - What your source for this bumhole-bollox of a story? Were you in London at the time? I suspect you didn't even exist in those days. I was there. As I have related previously, my school [north not east London, but London JTS] was one of the places they visited. Anyone who had thought of booing — which of course nobody did — would have been fucking lucky not to be torn to pieces. Another thing I will tell you is that there was no such thing as "the Queen...on HER first visit to the East End" - there were always THE KING & Queen on THEIR visit on such occasions; you seem to believe she just went swanning about by herself without him — she was, in fact, in the main the adjunct, the consort. It was the monarch who mattered. I will tell you that nobody booed or threw anything. You would do well not to believe too many of the writings of leftie·wankers with agendas, mate. I say again, you haven't provided any source for this pathetic pigsbum of a tale.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

My source for the Royal Family staying in Windsor and commuting in to London was Churchill's 'Their finest Hour', which you should be able to find on Google Books. Nicholson's comments can also be Googled as they're public domain.
Don't take it personally. All of us have to have illusions shattered at some point if we're to learn, whether the concern Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy and God or the invincibility of Liverpool FC and the sanctity of the dear old Queen Mum.
Just because someone lived in London at the time doesn't make them the font of all knowledge regarding the Blitz. Bob Holman lived in the East End through the Blitz, and he appears to take a different view to you when he writes:
"Looting occurred. The king and queen were booed by some East Enders who contrasted the royals' luxury with their lack of food. Grievances could erupt and the radical priest, John Groser, smashed open a food depot in Stepney, in the East End, when officials were slow to feed his bombed-out neighbours."
The point is not to accept what we're told at face value but to find out the facts. If more people did that, the BNP wouldn't be able to get away with its lies and half-truths, and people wouldn't be able to say "I'm no racist but I support the BNP", which must be one of the dumbest things anyone could say.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM

...and to call Harold Nicolson a "leftie' is a bit of a hoot, as you'd see if you looked into his life. A career diplomat from before the Great War, for a while he was pally with Mosley until Mosley became a fascist and was appointed minister of information by Churchill.
So "leftie" was he that he was appointed Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order as a reward for writing the official biography of George V.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 10:58 AM

Here's a part of that Question Time show which hasn't yet been mentioned on this thread, and I don't think has been widely noted elsewhere:

A young White male audience member said he had a question for the lady on the panel. The moderator asked him which lady he was referring to, and he answered Baron Warsi, because he said he knew Bonnie Greer's name.

I believe this is significant on two levels:

1. That two Women of Color were referred to as "lady" and it appears that most people thought that a given. Think about what that means in terms of the 1863 Ain't I A Woman speech that is attributed to the African American female anti-slavery activist Sojourner Truth.


2. That a woman without a nobility title was referred to as a "lady".

-snip-

I think that both of these points show how far people in the early 21st century have come regarding issues of race and class.

This doesn't mean that there nothing more positive that needs to be done in those areas. Obviously, in light of the BNP and other racist, fascist organizations, anyone who thought that we had eradicated the need to positively and effectively work through issues of race, ethnicity, and class has his or her head buried waaay down in the sand.

But, in my opinion, that small exchange in which the White audience member and the White moderator referred to Bonnie Greer and Baroness Warsi as ladies and the audience took that as a matter of course definitely shows that we have made some progress.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:20 AM

Azizi, it's common in the UK for men to afford women (of any class, race or ethnicity) due respect by referring to them as a 'lady' - I do it all the time, as do most of my circle of (male) friends. So, for instance, I would indicate a particular woman in a crowd as perhaps "the lady in the (specific) dress", rather than "the woman.....".

It's not an indication of belonging to the 'nobility' on the part of the woman, nor of any specific attitude towards people of colour on the part of the man, it's simply politeness on the part of the man in his reference to a woman.

Two nations divided.......etc.?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:24 AM

Panellists Greer and Warsi are both women. That anyone should attempt to refer to either of them as "ladies" shows only how little is understood about sexual politics and how much education remains outstanding.

Re: royals in wartime London

Gervase 1 Mike 0

although there was German-inflicted war damage aimed elsewhere. And no, I wasn't present on Tyneside either while the shipyards were being bombarded, but I was taken as a small child to view the crater in which some relatives had been vaporised. No, I don't know the purpose of that either.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:32 AM

Backwoodsman, in the 19th century and earlier, did English people refer to those who were not part of the nobiiity as ladies?

Also, in the 19th century and earlier, did Wnite people refer to Black women and other Women of Color as ladies (except for "ladies of the night" meaning "prostitutes"?

I don't think the first point is a matter of two nations divided by a common language (at least with regard to the USA) because we don't as a rule use nobility titles.

But if English people referred to Black women as ladies (and used Mrs and their last name while addressing them instead of using Aunt and a first name (their actual first name or a first name like "Jemima" or "Lizzie" that was used for all Black women) then that does appear to be different practices than those that occurred in the USA during the same time periods.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:37 AM

Some of your comparisons are difficult for us Azizi.
In 19thCentury Britain, unless they travelled beyond Europe, the vast majority of the people would never have seen a person of colour.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:41 AM

In your post of 10:58 AM you referred to linguistic practice of the "early 21st century", albeit in terms of "race and class". Women nowadays regard it as insulting to be called "ladies" and deplore the sexist attitudes of those still lurking in the backwoods. The term "Kinder Küche Kirche" springs to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM

Azizi. for most brits , their first encounter with people of colour came with the arrival of GIs in WW2.
Problems then arose because British people did not segregate, but white GIs did.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

Lady? It's a term intended as a politeness to strangers, and one used by most folk. I expect most of us were raised as kids to do it as a matter of course. But it's always funny to me when Mums in shops say to their kids something like: "You're in the lady's way" or "Don't run into the Lady" when referring to me - as I'm very much not a lady! Pretty much a complete hippy scruff-bag actually, who runs around in unladylike boots and tatty old second hand clothes. In the U.S. I believe it's customary to refer to strangers as Sir or Ma'am, neither of which in such instances imply any kind of genuine recognition of, or deference to, another's supposed social status. Similar thing with 'lady' or 'gentleman'. I'll often casually refer to guys as 'gents' too, especially if they're older, like "the gent with the pipe and glasses" or even "that homeless gent by the railings"..


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

Tug - I meant the pathetic whingers in the BNP. Nothing wrong with complaining that there is no socialist party, but that complaint does not send you to the BNP. Actually there are several left-wing parties, but none have any influence although all I think have voices.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:52 AM

...and none of them speak up for the working class.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:54 AM

Keith A of Hertford, my question is a historical one. I'm aware that most people living in the nations that now constitute the UK had little if any contact with People of Color in the 19 century and earlier.

**

The Borchester Echo, with regard to your comment that "Women nowadays regard it as insulting to be called "ladies" and deplore the sexist attitudes of those still lurking in the backwoods" , I'll take your word that this is true regarding the women of your acquaintance. And it may also be true regarding other women in the UK.

However, your comment is definitely not true everywhere in the world. For example, it's definitely not true among every population in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:56 AM

for most brits , their first encounter with people of colour came with the arrival of GIs

Eh?

Black (and Arabic) persons have been around in these islands since the Middle Ages, first left over from the Roman occupation and then as a result of seafaring. The term of Tudor times was "blackamoor", not intended, I don't think, to be very complimentary. On Tyneside the very long-established Bengali community is dubbed (by some) the "South Shields Arabs". Bristol, Liverpool and Cardiff also have very long-standing black communities with nothing whatsoever to do with WW2 GIs and predating also Enoch Powell's recruitment of Afro-Caribbeans for the NHS.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:06 PM

Yes B Echo I know.
My statement is still true.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:08 PM

When you have got yourself up to speed with the women's movement in this country and spoken with some of its long-standing adherents (I'd suggest Patricia Hewitt, Harriet Harman and Beatrix Campbell as some of the higher-profile women with whom I worked with as far back as 1970), you might be qualified to speak on how women in the early 21st century feel about reactionary retards. As this thread is supposed to be about neo-fascists in particular, I can only repeat that you reflect on the doctrine of "Kinder Küche Kirche" and how it, and these reactionaries, seek to subject and oppress 51% of the population.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

Only some women in UK deplore being called a lady. Interestingly David Dimbleby used to call for a 'lady in the audience' but changed that to 'a woman', often accompanied by a grin and 'I've been told I must say that.'

   Lady and gentleman were used in the C19 in UK to refer to people of refined manners rather than only those with titles.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM

In the U.S. I believe it's customary to refer to strangers as Sir or Ma'am
-Crow Sister

This isn't true across the board. It depends on one's upbringing and-maybe also which region of the nation a person is from. Among African Americans,some children are raised to refer to adults as sir or ma'am and others aren't (I wasn't. If some adult asked me a question, if I didn't hear the question, instead of saying "Ma'am?", I said "Yes?". It was considered very rude and disrespectful for either "group of children" to answer "What?".)

**

However, my central point was that historically-in 19th USA and earlier-BlackAmericans were not given the respect that White Americans routinely received. Few White people (from children on up) used the titles Mr., Mrs., or Miss along with a last name for Black people. (And yes, some Black people had surnames prior to emancipation.) Instead, the titles Auntie and Uncle were used along with a first name.

Also, few Black women were referred to as ladies. Instead, they were referred to as "mammy".

I wondered if reviewing historical records of contacts between Black people who resided in England prior to the immigration of Black Caribbean people (which I'm certain exist-the records that is)-if those same customs were practiced in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:24 PM

nice piece here about a black man in Britain in WW2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/96/a1921196.shtml
The questions he was asked show that people were unfamiliar with people of colour.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:25 PM

for most brits , their first encounter with people of colour came with the arrival of GIs

Try books by Colin Holmes


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

It's hard to fathom WTF modes of address have to do with the BNP but in a brave attempt to make it so, I found it very noticeable when at university in Germany in the 70s that the use of Herr, Frau & Fräulein was infinitely more widespread than the equivalents in Britain. And that racism was considerably more entrenched, indeed commonplace. Someone came to visit me in the house where I was renting a basement from the traditional old burgher. She enlisted the help of an African student (of which there were many: a case of German reparation in addition to the loss of the African colonies after WW1). Suddenly from aloft I heard screams of "Schwarz". Friend and black student descended followed by householder threatening me with eviction for harbouring visitors of the "wrong colour". On making inquiries at the police station I discovered that "no offence had been committed". Needless to say, I moved out anyway but we all know how Hitler's heirs treated the Gastarbeiter, don't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:33 PM

'to call Harold Nicolson a "leftie' is a bit of a hoot' -

Typical bit of evasive pretence of misunderstanding, G. I didn't call Nicholson a leftie: it was the booby who published that untrue anecdote about his press censorship of whom I used the term — & don't pretend you didn't get that — unless you actually do want to appear thicker then you really are...

What does that make the score, Diane?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:34 PM

If "ladies" isn't a respectable term for wome in the UK, then I contend that this is a case of "two nations divided by a common language".

I brought up the topic of the use of "ladies" in this thread because I considered it relevant to the broad topic of the Question Time show which included Nick Griffin.

If I correctly understand the point that The Borchester Echo is making, some feminist women in the UK don't like to be called "ladies" and don't like that word to be used for other respectable ladies.

I confess that I may not be totally up to date with American feminist beliefs and terminology, but it seems to me that this is a case of "two nations being divided by a common language". In other words, this might also be the case among American feminist. However, I know it's not the case among African American women in general.

I realize that there is another Mudcat thread about that topic-Here's that link to that discussion. But again, I raised the topic of the use of the word "ladies" in this thread because I considered-and still consider- it to be relevant to this discussion, at least from an American point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

Is there really anyone, for example, who, being present at a wedding reception as a guest would take offence at the Master of Ceremonies, who was not personally acquainted with any of the guests, if he requested everyone to rise to toast the bride and groom by pronouncing, "Ladies and Gentlemen, would you please be upstanding for the bride and groom". If there is then please pass me the Valium!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:14 PM

Sigh.

You don't seriously think you're going to inveigle me into reading any more of the bollocks written down here?

The Azizi person's problem (don't bother to correct me if it's not so) is that she has completely misread my invitation to her to put right someone else's application of her name to the homophobic Asian life peer panellist on QT. It wasn't me who made such a bizarre error. Why would I? On the principle of wishing to know my enemy, I know who's in the Shadow Cabinet.

I came into this thread because:
(a) someone drew my attention to it and
(b) its subject matter is potentially important.

As many contributors fail to see it as such and adopt the bizarre attitude of treating it as an inconsequential joke, it's definitely time to go and do something more important.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

"That Azizi person"-when you call me that, The Borchester Echo, you smile.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:21 PM

Oh, and WTF has "respectability" got to do with the price of cheese? I believe that this was one of the concerns of the aforementioned German racist who imagined the presence of a non-white person on her street would cause a collapse of property prices, followed by the end of civilisation as she knew it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:26 PM

We're drifting somewhat, but so what.

I rather assume that in this case the questioner was using the term "Lady" in the political sense, meaning the one who was a member of the House of Lords. If Warsi been a bloke a questioner who didn't know his name mightin the same way have referred to him as "the Lord on the panel."

In its more general application the word "lady" is a bit of a minefield - but then the same goes for "women" or "girl". Any of these can be taken as demeaning or insulting, in certain contexts - and can indeed be intended that way. Common sense and common courtesy normally makes it easy enough to negotiate these things.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

"It's hard to fathom WTF modes of address have to do with the BNP"

Actually, and bizarrely, quite a lot. The BNP regards politically correct modes of address - EG Ms instead of Miss or Missus - as part of the downfall of western civilisation. EG., the Activists Handbook, in between reading like something Douglas Adams might have written, specifies the correct mode of address when speaking to persons conducting BNP meetings.

It is, wait for it, "Mr. Chairman". Nothing more and nothing less.

"Chairperson", "chairwoman" and even "chairlady" are deemed poltically correct, and therefore unacceptable. The Hitchhikers Guide, sorry, Activists Handbook is very strict on this. If a woman is occupying the chair, the correct mode of address is "Madame Chairman".

Honest, I swear I did not make that up.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:34 PM

Ms instead of Miss or Missus - as part of the downfall of western civilisation

Hehe, let's hope it does, their nightmare scenario of how they envisage it, anyway.
And it underlines what I was saying earlier about the weirdly German mores.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:41 PM

If that were the sum total of BNP mores, I think few people would find it too hard to live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM

If you were keeping up, McGrath, you would have seen that I was referring to the use of Herr, Frau & Fräulein was infinitely more widespread than the equivalents in Britain. That and the sickmaking use of "gnädige Frau" and other such bollocks designed to prop up western (white) civilisation.

And to refer back to Crow Sister's remarks about mothers telling their screeching, ill-behaved brats to "get out of the lady's way" in the supermarket, it's highly disappointing to note that many of them are Afro-Caribbeans.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:05 PM

JohnL, I do not know who you are, but no, I have not recently sent any messages to anyone on Facebook nor sought to add anyone as "friend" on Facebook. I should be grateful if you would use a different application (eg "printpage", I am told - or I save a web page) to save the messages and perhaps we can figure out a way safely to get copies to me. I am collating information that may assist in enabling a class action lawsuit in the USA against Facebook who do nothing to stamp out the clones - and the idiots who do the cloning.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:21 PM

Diane, I think you are being perhaps oversensitive about the use of the word "lady". In principle I agree with you but it has for so long been a mark of manners to say "lady" rather than "woman" that it can be difficult to break the habits of a lifetime, and there are still people who take umbrage if referred to as "women" rather than "ladies". Somewhat similarly there are aristocratic and county circles in which it is considered unacceptably lower middle class to say "pardon" in stead of "what?". I gather that the Queen mother used much to mock those who did not know the difference between the pronunciations "marm" and "mam" for the elision "ma'am".

I do however wholly agree with you that it would be easy to see the reference to "Baroness Azizi" as a mistake for "Baroness Warnsi" as betraying an insulting confusion. But your reference to "the Azizi person" could also be seen as insulting. Plays on the names of people are seldom wholly innocent.

And Keith, to say that none of the left-wing parties speak for the legitimate concerns of "urban working class" is simply foolish, but worse it seems to resonate to the BNP dogwhistle. For example Galloway's "Respect" party speaks for quite a range of working and dispossessed including Asian (or, in Barness Warnsi's word "brown" in the current British usage of the word which does not include "Oriental", but I do not think she dared to say "yellow"), so who is it you say are unrepresented other than the BNP core of the white underclass?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:23 PM

*sigh*
I say again, you haven't provided any source for this pathetic pigsbum of a tale
JFGI, Mike. And calm down. It's no longer a hanging offence to reveal that the royal family isn't perfect. The booing of the King and Queen is a matter of record. Live with it. They did.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:34 PM

The royal family is indeed far from perfect. But Ms Windsor Senior (deceased) was quite right to insist on correct pronunciation is someone was referring to her as "ma'am". And more so if she took issue with those who said "pardon" instead of "what". Too, too middle class . . .

Bridge person: such a form of address is an entirely non-contentious one, giving no indication of rank nor gender. The Azizi person ought to be glad of such neutrality. Note also I do not call you Mr Hoff Esquire. You are a person and your name is Bridge.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:50 PM

I am reminded of some American musicians who were at C#House a few years ago for the launch of Songs Links. (Oops, that narrows them down considerably but I don't suppose for a moment that they'll be reading this). They really, really got on my tits by addressing me as "ma'am". You could all but hear their heels clicking simultaneously. And they'd been introduced to me by name so it wasn't as if they didn't know what else to call me.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:51 PM

Interesting, Diane. Who is referring to me as "Mr Hoff Esquire"? I can think of some likely candidates, but the way the expression tripped off your tongue is fascinating. I am glad to see your statement that your framing /Name person/ is non-contentious, giving no indication of rank (etc). Many would find it and your use of it to carry an implication of contempt. Why do you use it in stead of

/Name/?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:52 PM

'The booing of the King and Queen is a matter of record. Live with it. They did.'

Who did, G? You made it sound at first as if a whole crowd did. Then you sort of suggested one or two disaffected might just have. What record is it a matter of? How reliable?    You live in return with the fact that I don't believe your story, which you have told confusedly & inconsistently right from the start: - First off it was just the Queen. Then, when I pointed out that it wouldn't ever have been just her, you vaguely got the King in on the action too. Then you took me for a real idiot who'd refer to Nicholson as a leftie — oh for fuck's sake, learn to read what's written. Do you really think I don't know who Nicholson was? I lived in London thru the Blitz & you didn't, but somehow that means you know more about it than I do becoz you can read — when I have just demonstrated that you can't always. Sorry — Diane may think you're leading 1-0, but if she still thinks so we need a new scorer.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

Who is referring to me as "Mr Hoff Esquire"?

No-one (yet), Bridge person, except me as far as I know. I just made it up. The Borchester Echo, august fictional organ of the fine county of Borsetshire, can do this if it wants to.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:03 PM

I find it interesting that The Borchester Lady reintroduced the topic of my name being confused with that of Baronness Warzi when the discussion had moved on to other topics.

But for the record let me say this, I did not and do not take offense to my name being mistaken for that of Baroness Warzi.

If it had been done purposely (for instance to imply that I was homophobic as The Borchester Echo has implied Baroness Warsi is, or to imply that I advocated something else that I consider to be in opposition to my values) then I would have either made a statement about that use or I would have ignored that use and/or ignored that poster as being beneath my consideration.

Apparently The Borchester Echo likes to refer to me and to other people beside me as "The ___ person". That's her choice.

Be that as it may, I've said all I intend to say about her use of that referent for me, and about her concerns about the accidental confusion of my name with Baron Warsi's name.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:03 PM

Not that I did . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:08 PM

Actually, I do have one more thing to say after re-reading my last post before this one.

I truly didn't mean to refer to The Borchester Echo as "The Borchester Lady".

My sincerest apologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:11 PM

Indeed, it would be a truly bonkers way to refer to a newspaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:45 PM

Actually, I think Azizi's point about the use of "lady" was interesting. Even if some people consider it inappropriate, as it can be used as a put down, it obviously wasn't in this case, and that it would not have happened in the past in the States is informative. There's a huge difference between someone using "lady" when wanting to refer politely to a person whose name they don't know, and some smarmy blighter leering about "the ladies, god bless em", and most people would recognise that.
I'd much prefer it to being yelled at as "Miss" by ex-pupils who have forgotten my name. There are actually schools who teach that as a polite form of address (men being Sir) for their mostly married staff. That isn't as bad as mammying black women, but the intent was originally the same.
As for when Africans and Asians were here, I don't believe that they were visible after the Roman occupation, as there's no evidence for enclaves, and if they intermarried, the visibility would have diminished as has that of the descendants of the freed slaves of the 18th century. Definitely by Tudor times, as there is literary evidence for their presence, but they wouldn't have been obvious to most of the country.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 04:27 PM

No wonder BNP membership's on the rise!
Has the world gone mad? Don't you know the future could consist of about fifty years for all the women, ladies, men, guys, niggers, honkys,homosexuals, gays etc and none of them will give a flying fuck what anybody calls them.

The future will be about survival, not the niceties of language or manners.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 04:45 PM

Just about any word can be used as an insult, if the intent is to insult. And the reverse is probably true as well.

"I see we have a German gentleman among us..." And a fight breaks out in the bar.

Or

"Hullo, you old bastard, talk of the devil!" and it's warm greetings all round.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM

I was very tickled by the referent "The Borchester Lady". "The Lady" (a ladies' magazine) used to be funded mostly by its advertisements for nannies.   

I note that no-one has mentioned "laydees" yet.

Ake, you are wholly wrong. In primitive societies, such as would prevail in a "dying earth" scenario, modes of address and demands for respect become primal, even more so than under the code of the pnctilio and in intervening armigerous societies.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM

Eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM

He's a laywer Akeneaton.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:34 PM

You live in return with the fact that I don't believe your story

You know, I can live with it! In fact, Mike, I don't give a flying fart what you believe and I shouldn't think many other people do either.
However, I'm inclined to believe Harold Nicolson: Diaries and Letters 1939-1946 for 17th September 1940 (edited by his son and published in 1967), which is as near to a primary source as I'm going to get, and certainly more reliable than the reminiscences of a North London schoolboy who wasn't actually in the East End.
Anyway, back to the BNP...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:14 PM

Curious, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:16 PM

Oh dear oh dear, the chattering classes are falling out amongst themselves, even here in cosy folky Aga land! I've said it before, and I'll say it again,Nick Griffin isn't the problem. It's the Tony Blair clone that comes AFTER him that is the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

"a dedicated Border Police Force - probably made up of BNP supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:55 PM

I just had a disturbing vision of morris dancers with truncheons..


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 04:07 AM

"Also, in the 19th century and earlier, did Wnite people refer to Black women and other Women of Color as ladies (except for "ladies of the night" meaning "prostitutes"?"

Bloody hell, Azizi, I'm not that old - I don't know, I wasn't there! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 04:24 AM

I suspect (but do not know) that they would have been referred to as "persons" - at least by the genteel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:07 AM

McGrath of Harlow "If that (politically correct modes of address) were the sum total of BNP mores, I think few people would find it too hard to live with it."

I agree. I mentioned it to purely show the kind of fruitcakes we're dealing with.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:39 AM

Sometimes I am grateful for my surname...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:34 AM

I wonder if Richard's talk of whingers was inspired by this piece which so describes anyone worried about immigration.

It (mass immigration) didn't just happen: the deliberate policy of ministers from late 2000 until at least February last year, when the Government introduced a points-based system, was to open up the UK to mass migration.

Even now, most graduates with good English and a salary of £40,000 or the local equivalent abroad are more or less guaranteed enough points to settle here.

The results in London, and especially for middle-class Londoners, have been highly positive. It's not simply a question of foreign nannies, cleaners and gardeners - although frankly it's hard to see how the capital could function without them.

Their place certainly wouldn't be taken by unemployed BNP voters from Barking or Burnley - fascist au pair, anyone? Immigrants are everywhere and in all sorts of jobs, many of them skilled.

My family's east European former nannies, for example.....
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23760073-dont-listen-to-the-whingers---london-needs-immigrants.do


This was written by Andrew Neather who worked for Tony Blair and Jack Straw in government.

It shows the contempt for the working class and explains why we now have a rising support for BNP among them.
The policy also conveniently guaranteed an increasingly Labour-voting electorate since, as a recent survey by the Electoral Commission has revealed, some 90 per cent of black people and three-quarters of Asians vote Labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

Bloody hell, Azizi, I'm not that old - I don't know, I wasn't there! :-) :-)
-Backwoodsman

Neither am I and neither was I. But I was talking about comparing documented historical customs with present day practices. And (to use the slogan of a favored children's reading program in the USA) "reading is FUNdamental".

Putting that question aside, I thought using the word "bloody" among respectable ladi...-excuse me...respectable females- was a no no.

But I'll forgive you this time. :o)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:30 PM

"-excuse me...respectable females-"

Hey, who are you calling 'Respectable'?!!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:41 PM

Keith: -
1. Tell us news, not history.
2. Oh, you have a problem with Blacks and Asians do you? Well, I am surprised (not).


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:04 PM

Hey, who are you calling 'Respectable'?!! (CS)

It's all relative ;-)

I'm happy to regard any 'lady' who objects to the term, as 'not a lady'. Can't say fairer than that..


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:47 AM

Richard,
1. This story IS news. Telegraph piece from yesterday.
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

The word "whingers" has no been used on Mudcat for over a year.
Just coincidence that you used it after Neather?

2. If I make a factual comment about a group's voting pattern, that does not mean I have any problems with that group.
You just made a groundless accusation of racism against me.

Instead of making new attacks on me here, why not return to the immigration thread and explain why you called me "liar" in your last two posts, when I was the one telling the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 04:03 AM

Sorry about Telegraph link.
I think the story is relevant here.
Use this and click on the Labour immigration story.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/search/?queryText=neather


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 04:53 AM

The reason it's history is that it tells us (if it tells us) about the past not the present.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:09 AM

"Putting that question aside, I thought using the word "bloody" among respectable ladi...-excuse me...respectable females- was a no no.

But I'll forgive you this time. :o) "

Thank 'ee, kindly Ma'am! (Oh no! I used the 'M' word! Here we go again........!!).   :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:54 AM

It is very new information about the past Richard.
I can understand why you want it to go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 06:35 AM

An opinion poll out today shows that the BNP are still on only 2% - no increase since Fuhrer Griffin's appearance.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: folk1e
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:01 PM

So, to sumise the posts up to now......

1 We do not like the BNP in general and Nick Griffin in particular.

2 Whilst we all believe in free speach we realy do not want it exercised by the BNP.

3 We think that Griffin may have, if not increased the BNP vote at least not caused it to dip.

4 Griffin did not do a good job for the BNP on this occasion, as any gaffes were more than compensated by everyone else "ganging up on him"

So if it were a boxing match it would be marked as a draw?
If this is so we were all getting upset for nothing? OK, the worst did not happen and BNP policies have not been shown in a good light.
My own point on this is that whatever you think of the BNP they do have some points that need adressing and that untill this happens the BNP will retain a small but significant section of the UK vote!


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