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BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...

Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Sep 09 - 02:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Sep 09 - 02:09 PM
SINSULL 14 Sep 09 - 12:45 PM
SINSULL 14 Sep 09 - 12:41 PM
Amos 14 Sep 09 - 12:25 PM
SINSULL 14 Sep 09 - 12:21 PM
mauvepink 14 Sep 09 - 12:16 PM
Alice 14 Sep 09 - 12:07 PM
Lox 14 Sep 09 - 12:07 PM
Stu 14 Sep 09 - 11:58 AM
Amos 14 Sep 09 - 11:47 AM
Alice 14 Sep 09 - 11:41 AM
Lox 14 Sep 09 - 11:39 AM
Bobert 14 Sep 09 - 11:34 AM
Desert Dancer 14 Sep 09 - 11:25 AM
SINSULL 14 Sep 09 - 11:17 AM
Desert Dancer 14 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM
Mr Happy 14 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM
Desert Dancer 14 Sep 09 - 11:00 AM
Alice 14 Sep 09 - 10:34 AM
Desert Dancer 14 Sep 09 - 10:28 AM
Mr Happy 14 Sep 09 - 09:57 AM
Rapparee 14 Sep 09 - 08:01 AM
Alice 14 Sep 09 - 07:57 AM
mauvepink 14 Sep 09 - 07:34 AM
Lox 14 Sep 09 - 06:19 AM
VirginiaTam 14 Sep 09 - 06:03 AM
Lox 14 Sep 09 - 05:48 AM
Lox 14 Sep 09 - 05:43 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 02:19 PM

This profound difference colours every observation and any conclusion drawn from those observations; they are irreconcilable.

Arrant nonsense!

The conflict is absolutely one sided.

Creationists totally reject evolution, and all evidence of its existence, in favour of the ridiculously inane concept of the world having been created in six days, some 6-8,000 years ago.

Evolutionists, however, embrace the Darwinian theory, and in many cases also believe in the existence of God.

Creationism can only maintain credibility if you can convince yourself that a book written more than 2000 years ago, has come down the centuries completely unaltered by the personal beliefs and agendas, not to mention the typographical errors of those who have reproduced it time and time again, a concept much less believable IMHO, than the existence of a God.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 02:09 PM

The review posted by Lox includes conclusions about Darwin and his wife Emma that are not strictly true. His agnosticism was based on his observations, not to any great extent on his daughter's death. His wife's faith was not blinkered unquestioning belief.

In his autobiography, Darwin wrote in summary:
"Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress [*and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who did not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.
And this is a damnable doctrine].

Mrs. Darwin annotated the passage in brackets... in her own handwriting. She writes: "I should dislike the passage in brackets to be published. It seems to me raw. Nothing can be said too severe upon the doctrine of everlasting punishment for disbelief- but very few now would call that 'Christianity,' (tho' the words are there.) There is the question of verbal inspiration comes in too. E. D." Oct. 1882.
The passage was not published.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 12:45 PM

A slightly clearer tally of the Gallup Polls' results:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 12:41 PM

Well! I'll be a monkey's uncle, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 12:25 PM

Creationism -- like darwinism -- comes in a spectrum of flavors from "slightly off" to "rancid".


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 12:21 PM

I thought (and probably misunderstood)that creationists take the bible literally. In their minds, Genesis teaches everything was created as it is today. But Cane killed Abel and went away to find Lilith. Was she human or an animal? If human then there must have been some additional creation.

The thing I could never get past is if you believe that all humans descend directly from Adam and Eve then you have to accept incest as normal. There is no way around it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: mauvepink
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 12:16 PM

I have just seen the trailer on (UK) terrestrial television. It seems quite innocuous except a line where someone says "you have just killed God"! That was never Darwin's intention. His sole purpose was to report what he had observesd and found on his world travels and postulate their meaning. He never discovered or created evolution because it was already there. He simply reported it. I have no idea what anyone would fear from this biographical film unless they fear it may update their own ideas and maybe even prove interesting?

Sinsull: Probably one of the biggest evolutionary hot spots on the planet just now are the Hawaiin Islands. There is some speciation there that is occurring at such a rate, and can be shown, simply because of geographical seperation so the book you mention sounds spot on.

I, like those here who already mentioned it, cannot see why the existence of God and Evolution cannot go hand in hand or at least be complimetary rather than competitive. One explanation can feed the mind and other can feed the soul perhqaps? Evolution is so simple in its basis and yet so complex in it's expression. I am sure it is a real natural occurrence. I certainly struggle with a great deal of science that calls for 'special pleading' (which could also be called faith) so am trying to find a way to unify the two for myself. I even refer to myself as a Christian Agnostic in many ways. I would hope all people can find their own way through the mesh of life and that others can respect each other's place within creation. It will be interersting to see where this film leads the dissenters on all sides. I think Mr Dawkins is far more better when wearing his scientist's hat than when attacking people's belief systems... but that is just my opinion. I think him a brilliant mind and scientist - certainly a latter day "Darwin's Bulldog" - but even he must know faith, even if only in his own ideas :-)

Darwin would never, could never, kill God. It was not his way and it was that very respect that troubled him for so long before he published. He was a brilliant scientist, a loving husband and dedicated father. I never think of him as a bad man and if anyone has ever read of his private letters they would know he was good at heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 12:07 PM

Well, I left religion behind when I went to college, so it didn't "stick" for me. Regarding evolution, I believed my science teachers. Faith was a separate issue, but for too many Americans, they don't know how to separate faith and science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 12:07 PM

"I went to Catholic school and they taught us about evolution with no conflict with faith in God. Only those who take the bible literally become hung up on creation/evolution."

The thing that surprises me, and I once made this point to a group of Islamic creationists, is that someone can on the one hand believe in an all knowing all seeing all powerful God with an infinite capacity for invention and ceration and a mind so vast that it can build universes and create life ...

... yet on the other hand not give him credit for being able to design a universe that is so complex that it takes the cleverest minds to understand its most basic principles, but instead claim that he would design it in much the same way that a nursery rhyme is written.

If I was god I'd be pretty pissed off with creationists. I'd want to know if they thought I was thick or something!

I think evolution is not only compatible with God, but like all western science (which by the way has its roots in the catholic church) I think it furthers the original intent beautifully of exposing the utter wonder and beauty of our universe and the way it has developed.

Evolution is one of many incredible phenomena that make our experience here on earth unfathomably rich and rewarding.

That sounds pretty compatible with any religious persons wonder of creation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Stu
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:58 AM

"I went to Catholic school and they taught us about evolution with no conflict with faith in God. Only those who take the bible literally become hung up on creation/evolution."

But here's why I believe science and religion differ (Alice - this is not personal to you but your post sort of illustrates a point I'm trying to make). How do we decide which bit is which? Let some bloke in a frock tell us on Sunday morning? Personal revelation? Profound insight? Guess? . . . perhaps cherry pick the bits that are easiest to digest and absorb into our own personal value system.

The conflict is the most fundamental foundations of each system are massively different because one relies on zero evidence and total faith and one relies on empirical evidence and zero faith. This profound difference colours every observation and any conclusion drawn from those observations; they are irreconcilable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:47 AM

I think Bobez is right--the 60% figure is probably misguided and overblown.

The chain of gradual change in life forms, fueled by natural selection, sexual advantage, and a drive for survival, is not really deniable, except by pure-dee mythmongering.

Whether the ionformation behind that chain includes a spiritual element or not is an interesting question, that is still open. The core question, to my mind, is the capacity for intention, something I have never seen in a molecule. Intending and understanding are orders of magnitude more subtle, it seems to me, than any other "behavior" (a much-abused word) in physical organic systems.

The Blind Watchmake (Dawkins) and other books by the same author do a good job of unfolding the reasoning behind modern Darwinism.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:41 AM

ditto, what Lox wrote.

Thanks, I was just about to write about the misunderstanding of the word "theory".


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:39 AM

"How the hell do you "believe" in a theory? It's a theory, not an incontrovertible truth. How do you dismiss a theory without investigating it?"

A common mistake that people make is to confuse the word "theory" with the word "hypothesis".

A scientific theory is not mere speculation to be proved or disproved, it is the accumulated knowledge on a particular subject.

Consequently, Einsteins theory of relativity, while replacing newtons theory of the laws of motion, does not debunk newtons discoveries, it is based upon them and to understand einstein you have to understand newton.

The theory of evolution is not something that was invented by Darwins imagination whilst contemplating his navel which he then went on to try and prove, it was something that he 'observed' and it is something that we 'learn' more about as our 'observations' become more detailed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:34 AM

I have no faith in the polls... Believing that 60% of people believe in creationism is about as ignorant as believing in creationism itself... The right wing has had the country by the balls for 3 decades and lots of folks know exactly what answer pollsters want to hear and just go along with the game rather than turn it into some kinda confrontation... It's just isn't worth it... I beleieve that the recent elections show that to be the case...

I believe that if a poll were to be conducted where folks felt comfortable saying what they believe that the results would be much different...

Lastly, it is going to take some time to detox off the culture that the right wing has instilled in the country but the good news is that that will occur, righties kicking and screaming all the way...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:25 AM

On the movie's Facebook page here's what looks like some deliberate provocation: the blurb is "What happens when a world-renowned scientist, crushed by the loss of his eldest daughter, conceives a book which will prove the non-existence of God. This is the story of Charles Darwin and his master-work "The Origin of Species"."

How can you "prove the non-existence of God"?

Of course, you might prove (or at least provide evidence) that the Bible can't be taken entirely literally in all cases...

~ B in T


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:17 AM

How the hell do you "believe" in a theory? It's a theory, not an incontrovertible truth. How do you dismiss a theory without investigating it?

Nevermind. I know. Let someone else decide for you.

If you would like to read a beautifully written explanation of Darwin's theory, try "Song Of The Dodo". Can't remember the author's name offhand. His THEORY is that islands cause unique species to develop from the same roots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM

Also, Lox wrote "A film about Charles Darwin's life is receiving critical acclaim all over the world ...

... but not in the USA."

Not so:

Los Angeles Times
New York Times

~ B in T


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

From the linked article

'.......according to a Gallup poll conducted in February, only 39 per cent of Americans believe in the theory of evolution.'


So approx 60% believe in creationism.


I wonder if a similar proportion of US mudcatters are this way inclined?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 11:00 AM

It's that discussion that I think is important and despite the vocal presence of the evangelical atheists (i.e., Richard Dawkins), I wouldn't want everyone who walks out of the movie to think that all evolutionists argue that "God is dead". Of course, it's not clear what the conclusion of the movie is given that the trailer bits are meant to be enticing in their controversiality.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 10:34 AM

I went to Catholic school and they taught us about evolution with no conflict with faith in God. Only those who take the bible literally become hung up on creation/evolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 10:28 AM

It looks like an interesting film and I'm looking forward to seeing it (but then, my training is in evolutionary biology and I'm pretty much an atheist - in the non-evangelical sense). It is directly about Darwin's personal crisis of belief resulting both from the development of his theory and the death of his eldest daughter and in the context of his wife's devout faith.

Paul Bettany and Jennifer Connally (who are married in real-life) play Darwin and his wife: Creation, the movie. (I think the producers are looking for a little controversy with that title!)

It will undoubtedly be controviersial, but I'm sure it will find a distributor -- plenty of other controversial films have gotten out there. As a talky costume drama, I wonder how it will do at the box office for other reasons... as mentioned in some of the comments. I expect to see it here at our art theater, not at the big multi-plexes, although we have one that does some of the foreign-language films and whatnot that might show it.

What I bothers me a little bit is what it might do to the legitimate argument that the concept of evolution is not necessarily incompatible with faith in God.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 09:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjKMhtyI3L8


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 08:01 AM

That's why I don't own a beagle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 07:57 AM

Anything about Darwin would rile up the "creationists".


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: mauvepink
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 07:34 AM

Am I to take it, from what I have read, that this film then is about explaining Darwin's life and his works, not actually supporting evolution or trying to push what evolution is onto people. Likewise it is not an attack for/against science/religion, but simply about a one person's struggle with announcing their own findings?

In principle it is a biography of some person's life and their work?

Like it could be a film about Henry VIII and his wives and divorce, that anyone could watch, without fear of having to agree/disagree in divorce or causing some major disagreement between the various for/against divorce folk?

So there is nothing for anyone to get upset about in reality?

Do correct me if I am wrong though :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 06:19 AM

Reading through the comments underneath the article it seems likely that I've fallen for a bit of advertizing hype masquerading as controversy.

Curious to know from US catters if the article is correct though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 06:03 AM

Sadly Lox

It probably will be too much for many Bible belt denizens. In fact, many Americans (think I can poke fun, cuz I are one) in my experience have problems distinguishing a historical treatise whatever media in which it is presented from an insult to learned and held belief systems.

Scary innit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 05:48 AM

Sorry folks,

let me try that again ...


click here


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Subject: BS: Evolution ... or perhaps not ...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 05:43 AM

A film about Charles Darwin's life is receiving critical acclaim all over the world ...

... but not in the USA.



       Allegedly


Is
this the kind of resistance Obama is up against?


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