mudcat.org: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins

Michael Harrison 29 Aug 09 - 05:32 PM
Jack Campin 29 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Aug 09 - 06:57 PM
Little Hawk 29 Aug 09 - 11:58 PM
Rog Peek 30 Aug 09 - 05:04 AM
Fred McCormick 30 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Adam 30 Aug 09 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,beachcomber 30 Aug 09 - 07:58 AM
Fred McCormick 30 Aug 09 - 08:35 AM
Fiolar 30 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM
Michael Harrison 30 Aug 09 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,beachcomber 31 Aug 09 - 07:55 AM
Michael Harrison 31 Aug 09 - 11:33 PM
Fiolar 01 Sep 09 - 08:04 AM
Fiolar 01 Sep 09 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,beachcomber 01 Sep 09 - 03:12 PM
Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) 01 Sep 09 - 03:19 PM
Michael Harrison 01 Sep 09 - 05:13 PM
The Sandman 01 Sep 09 - 05:44 PM
Fiolar 02 Sep 09 - 08:14 AM
Gulliver 03 Sep 09 - 09:00 PM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:




Subject: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 05:32 PM

I am currently reading a book on Michael Collins, titled, "The Big Fellow," and I have a couple of questions I thought some Catters might be able to help me with. The first one is: has it ever been established as to who killed Michael Collins, and why? No, I have not reached the end of the book yet, but other sources outside of the reading have stated that nobody knows for sure - is this true?

Also, can anyone advise on other books to read on Michael Collins so as to get some different perspectives? Personally, I think that Collins was, "The Man," but, I'd like some more imput before I jumble it all up and cram it into my little mind for processing.

Thanks,...................mwh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM

Not sure what other books there are (I've read that one too, but it was long ago) - but Collins became a hero of the Blueshirt fascists in Ireland after his death, and it might be worth finding out why.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 06:57 PM

Well, he was dead, wasn't he? And therefore in no position to object.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 11:58 PM

Can't help you on that, as my knowledge is very limited about it, but I will say that I very much enjoyed the movie in which Liam Neeson played Michael Collins.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 05:04 AM

From Wikepedia:
There is no consensus as to who fired the fatal shot. The most recent authoritative account suggests that the shot was fired by Denis ("Sonny") O'Neill, an Anti-Treaty IRA fighter and a former British Army marksman who died in 1950.[24] This is supported by eyewitness accounts of the participants in the ambush. O'Neill was using dum-dum ammunition, which disintegrates on impact and which left a gaping wound in Collins' skull. He dumped the remaining bullets afterwards for fear of reprisals by Free State troops.[24] Collins' men brought his body back to Cork where it was then shipped to Dublin because it was feared the body might be stolen in an ambush if it were transported by road.[24] His body lay in state for three days in Dublin City Hall where tens of thousands of mourners filed past his coffin to pay their respects. His funeral mass took place at Dublin's Pro Cathedral where a number of foreign and Irish dignitaries were in attendance.


Collins' shooting has provoked many conspiracy theories in Ireland, and even the identity and motives of the assassin are subject to debate. Some Republicans maintain that Collins was killed by a British "plant". Some Pro-Treaty accounts claim that de Valera ordered Collins' assassination. Others allege that he was killed by one of his own soldiers, Jock McPeak, who defected to the Republican side with an armoured car three months after the ambush.[25] However, historian Meda Ryan, who researched the incident exhaustively, concluded that there was no real basis for such theories. "Michael Collins was shot by a Republican, who said [on the night of the ambush], 'I dropped one man'". Liam Deasy, who was in command of the ambush party, said, "we all knew it was Sonny Neill's bullet."[26]

The following is an excerpt from Tom Barry's book 'Guerilla days in Ireland' where he is at pains to scotch the theory that there was some kind of conspiracy. This was during the civil war when he was a prisoner of the Free State:

In July, 1922,I was a Republican prisoner in Mountjoy Jail and attempted to escape. Within sight of freedom, I was recaptured and for nearly three weeks I was held in solitary confinement in a basement punishment cell. Towards the end of my punishment period I was transferred at midnight in an armoured car to Kilmainham Jail, where I was again allowed to mix with other military prisoners. Here I made another unsuccessful attempt to escape, but because of the humanity of the Governor, Sean O'Mhuirthille, there was no further punishment. I was talking with some other prisoners on the night of August 22nd, 1922, when the news came in that Michael Collins had been shot dead in West Cork. There was a heavy silence throughout the jail, and ten minutes later from the corridor outside the top tier of cells I looked down on the extraordinary spectacle of about a thousand kneeling Republican prisoners spontaneously reciting the Rosary aloud for the repose of the soul of the dead Michael Collins, President of the Free State Executive Council and Commander-in-Chief of the Free State Forces. There was, of course, little logic in such an action, but I have yet to learn of a better tribute to the part played by any man in the struggle with the English for Irish Independence. Through all the hates and bitterness of Civil War, those Republican prisoners, remembered that the dead leader, latterly their enemy, was once an inspiration and driving force in their struggle with the alien army of occupation.
Here I may as well also kill the canard that the I.R.A. plotted "and planned Collins' death in 1922 and in fact assassinated him. About a week after his death we were transferred from Kilmainham to Gormanstown and on the very first day there I succeeded in escaping. Ten or eleven days later I walked into West Cork and interviewed the men who had fired the shots, one of which had ended the life of Michael Collins. The facts of his death were that a West Cork Column was lying in ambush for several days on the Bandon-Macroom road to attack the Free State troops who periodically used that route. On August 22nd, 1922, this Column waited for several hours at Bealnablath, but in the afternoon, having decided it was unlikely that the target would pass that day, the order to withdraw was given. The main body of the Column had retired over a mile and the small rearguard over a quarter of a mile from the ambush position, when a Free State convoy appeared. The main Column was out of sight and range, but the small rear- guard turned and opened fire from nearly five hundred yards range at the passing convoy which immediately stopped. The Free State party dismounted and lying on the road returned the fire, but the rearguard after firing less than a dozen rounds hurried on after the main body. One of those long range shots had killed Michael Collins, the only one of his party to be hit. It was almost five hours later when the I.R.A. Column first heard that Collins had been with the Free State convoy and that he had been killed in the skirmish with the Column's rearguard.

Rog


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM

I think Tim Pat Coogan's biography, "Michael Collins" is generally reckoned to be the best there is. At any rate it's probably a good starting point.

I don't recall hearing before that Collins was a hero of the Blueshirts, and I confess it puzzles me. It's true that Collins was anti-socialist but then so too were most of the veterans of the struggle for independence, including DeValera.

Two things which I would have expected the blueshirts to be put off by.

Firstly, there is Collins' part in the ceding of the six counties, surely not something which any blueshirt bastard, as James Larkin called one of them, would willingly countenance.

Secondly, while Collins was an ardent nationalist, he was a far more progressive nationalist than many of his colleagues. Again, not something I'd have expected to play well with the Irish far right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: GUEST,Adam
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:07 AM

Michael Collins accepted a British offer of artillery loaned by Winston Churchill to kill his former comrades. He used 200 shells from a store of 10,000 held at Kilmainham against Irish republicans. Two 18 Pounder field guns were placed on Parliament Street and Winetavern Street, across the Liffey and it was Michael Collins who gave the order for the shelling of the Four Courts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:58 AM

While it is true that the "Blueshirt" movement was founded by one of Collins' Pre-Truce Generals, Eoin O'Duffey, this was in the 1930s, long after the shooting of Michael Collins.
TheFine Gael Political Party , of which the Blue Shirts were a part, WERE comprised of former Collins PRO -Treaty Colleagues, and accepting of Partition.
Collins' successors WERE the far right !
It does not give a totally accurate picture to say that "most of the veterans" of the "struggle for Independence" were "anti-socialist" because there were very strong left wing sympathisers inthe ranks.
This was especially true of the Munster Region.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 08:35 AM

GUEST,beachcomber:- "It does not give a totally accurate picture to say that "most of the veterans" of the "struggle for Independence" were "anti-socialist"".

True. Majority might have been a better way of putting it.

Could be that the lionisation, if lionisation it was, of Collins by the Blueshirts, might reflect nothing more than that O'Duffy and Collins were in the same war of independence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM

Michael Harrison: There are several books about Michael Collins. Here are just a few titles:
"Michael Collins and the Women Who Spied For Ireland" By Meda Ryan.
"Michael Collins and The Invisible Army" By Desmond Ryan.
"Michael Collins" By Leon O Broin.
"The Day Michael Collins Was Shot" By Meda Ryan.
"Michael Collins, Himself" By Chrissy Osborne.
Those are just a few and you might also try and get the DVD entitled "Mick". A Documentary Remembering Michael Collins, People And Events Of His Time.
Good luck. Let me know how you get on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 05:39 PM

Fiolar - thanks for the list; somewhere along the way I'll drop you a note on my progress. Thanks, too, to all the other contributors here. This thread is turning a little bit into a discussion of Michael Collins and his times - this can be a good thing so that those who follow behind don't just think of him as a name on a bottle of whiskey. Cheers,........................mwh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 07:55 AM

There is no doubt that Collins promoted O'Duffy while DeValera quickly replaced him on his ascent to Government.
Michael, another excellent study of Collins is "Mick" by Peter Hart, "Michael Collins'Intelligence War" by Michael T. Foy and you can add "The Big Fellow" by Frank O'Connor. (And, there are more)

That little lot, combined of course with Fiolar's biblography should keep you in reading matter and study for the rest of 2009 :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 11:33 PM

Easily through 2009, beachcomber, and well beyond, I'm sure. Thanks a bunch. Cheers,.....................mwh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 08:04 AM

Michael Harrison: Sorry, but I don't think much of the Peter Hart's book. Rather than comment type in "Meda Ryan" in Google and scroll down to the site with the "Irish Democrat" title. I'll leave you to decide what you think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 08:15 AM

Michael: Apologies I should have given you the following website which you may find of considerable interest as it lists 25 books regarding Michael Collins.
www2.cruzio.com/~sbarrett/mcollins.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:12 PM

I'm inclined to your opinion of Hart's book also Fiolar but nevertheless, it is a point of view (and we do know that not everyone thought him that big a loss in 1922).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:19 PM

This, from CELT, might be of interest to some

The Path to Freedom by Michael Collins

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 05:13 PM

This is all great stuff, folks - thanks.
JWOB: thanks for the CELT link; there will be a chunk of stuff here that will be of interest, I'm sure.
Fiolar: I will serarch for that website. Thanks,.............mwh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 05:44 PM

The Blueshirts were formed by O Duffy,there is no connection between Collins and the Blueshirts.
FINE GAEL was founded in 1933.
it was a conglomeration of parties one of which was the Blueshirts.
n response to the banning of the National Guard, Cumann na nGaedheal and the National Centre Party merged to form a new party, Fine Gael, on September 3, 1933. O'Duffy became its first president, with W. T. Cosgrave and James Dillon acting as vice-presidents. The National Guard changed into the Young Ireland Association, and became part of a youth wing of the party. The party's aim was to create a corporatist United Ireland within the British Commonwealth. Following disagreements with his Fine Gael colleagues, O'Duffy left the party, although most of the Blueshirts stayed in Fine Gael.

O'Duffy then founded the National Corporate Party, and later fought on General Francisco Franco's side in the Spanish Civil War. They were once fired upon by mistake by Franco's troops, after which they returned to Ireland. In December 1934, O'Duffy attended the Montreux Fascist conference in Switzerland.
Fine Gael was never a fascist party,They are not much different from Fianna Fail.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Fiolar
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 08:14 AM

Michael: From the music point of view try "Michael Collins" +youtube on the Google search and then to get another version try Michael Collins +youtube +Johnny McEvoy. There's loads of stuff to watch and listen to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Big Fellow' - Michael Collins
From: Gulliver
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:00 PM

Schweik sums it up, roughly. That comment from Jack Campin is just a cheap shot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 31 March 4:30 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.