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Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)

robomatic 29 Aug 09 - 11:43 AM
Joe Offer 29 Aug 09 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Yar it's me 29 Aug 09 - 01:48 AM
robomatic 28 Aug 09 - 10:16 PM
Alice 28 Aug 09 - 09:19 PM
Joe_F 28 Aug 09 - 08:59 PM
Joe Offer 28 Aug 09 - 07:08 PM
Joe Offer 28 Aug 09 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,bflat 27 Aug 09 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,Greycap 27 Aug 09 - 07:46 PM
Azizi 27 Aug 09 - 07:41 PM
civilservant 27 Aug 09 - 06:25 PM
akenaton 27 Aug 09 - 04:25 PM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 09 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Cocytus 27 Aug 09 - 03:33 PM
Azizi 27 Aug 09 - 03:21 PM
Ebbie 27 Aug 09 - 03:04 PM
akenaton 27 Aug 09 - 02:49 PM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 09 - 02:43 PM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 09 - 02:14 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Aug 09 - 12:44 PM
Greg F. 27 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM
akenaton 27 Aug 09 - 11:51 AM
Arkie 27 Aug 09 - 10:23 AM
Donuel 27 Aug 09 - 09:30 AM
Raptor 27 Aug 09 - 08:28 AM
catspaw49 27 Aug 09 - 08:16 AM
jeddy 27 Aug 09 - 07:58 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 27 Aug 09 - 07:56 AM
catspaw49 27 Aug 09 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 27 Aug 09 - 07:16 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 27 Aug 09 - 03:13 AM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 09 - 01:41 AM
Genie 27 Aug 09 - 12:38 AM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 09 - 12:21 AM
Stilly River Sage 26 Aug 09 - 11:36 PM
Azizi 26 Aug 09 - 11:33 PM
SharonA 26 Aug 09 - 11:28 PM
Raptor 26 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM
SharonA 26 Aug 09 - 11:00 PM
Riginslinger 26 Aug 09 - 10:53 PM
Beer 26 Aug 09 - 10:49 PM
Greg F. 26 Aug 09 - 10:29 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 26 Aug 09 - 10:24 PM
katlaughing 26 Aug 09 - 10:18 PM
artbrooks 26 Aug 09 - 10:02 PM
SharonA 26 Aug 09 - 09:34 PM
katlaughing 26 Aug 09 - 09:30 PM
Beer 26 Aug 09 - 09:29 PM
Genie 26 Aug 09 - 09:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 11:43 AM

As for Chappaquiddick, it made a difference of course. I think suppositions are just that, and just about worthless. Massachusetts loves the Kennedys, and there was an unspoken understanding (probably spoken a little I s'pose) that Teddy made a fine Senator, but would never be President.

He was not loved without reason.

Considering the outpourings of hagiography over President Reagan, the memorialization of Senator Ted is small potatoes.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 10:49 AM

The funeral is on now. Wish I had time to watch it - click.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,Yar it's me
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 01:48 AM

Widespread -- and credible -- supposition suggests that the young woman whom he left trapped in the submerged car had an air supply and died of suffocation. Due to Kennedy's cowardice and grotesque self-servitude, he and confederates neglected to dial for emergency services and didn't call the authorities for 10 hours. It's very reasonable to believe -- if you give credence to the suffocation-rather-than-drowning theory -- that she could have been saved if emergency-response had been quickly called in, rather than the 10-hour delay in which Kennedy went to bed and presumably tried to sober up and weighed his "options" while Mary Jo was left trapped and alone in the dark to suffocate.

Due to the 10-hour delay Kennedy should have been imprisoned, and exiled from holding public office. Any "ordinary" person would have been prosecuted enthusiastically. But he was connected, and he was a Kennedy. Had it went to a jury, I think it would have been a quick deliberation.

As to the disgustingly disingenuous and/or hypocritical and/or unforgivably obtuse liberals here who will defend any and all actions of any and all self-serving power-hungry leftist hacks with a "D" next to their name -- eat crap, creeps. You wackos are pathological. Maybe take a visit over at HuffPo; I understand there's a really sickening article there titled "What Would Mary Jo Kopechne Have Thought of Ted's Career?" that fairly illustrates the nausea-inducing can of worms of the typical reprobate liberal mind.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:16 PM

I think he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer of the Kennedy clan but he did his best with the material at hand, which I find genuinely inspirational.

His moral career is somewhat checkered going back to his college days and lasting into his dotage, but I think he meant to do well for the most part and he certainly could have done worse.

He came to my high school arguing against the Volunteer Army and asked our assembly: "How many of you are in favor of a Volunteer Army?"
All hands rose.
"How many of you would volunteer?"
All hands fell.
I agreed with him on that.

I was visiting his offices in DC during his brief run for President. His offices were loud with the ringing of every phone and harried staff trying to stem some reportorial tide. I found out later that someone had stuck a microphone in his face and asked him why he wanted to be President and he'd stumbled the answer.

His campaign against Mitt Romney in the 90's used anti-Mormon tactics and it made me believe that he had outlived his career.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Alice
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:19 PM

A news story on this yesterday described how the family would sing around the table at the end of dinner, and this became even more important to Ted Kennedy in the last year of his life. His wife Vickie gave him the gift of singing lessons because she knew he loved it so much. He would sing in his office, in the hallways of the Senate, while sailing... it was a part of his life and what the family also considered as part of their Irish American heritage.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 08:59 PM

"...spoke to a friend and two lawyers before finally calling the police."

ObSongs: In Leslie Fish's version of this nasty story, it was some family members and his campaign manager.

If that is a libel, it is pretty vile. If it is true,....


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 07:08 PM

The memorial service is on now: http://www.tedkennedy.org/live

Who was the sailing buddy with the curly hair, who spoke early in the service? Most of the speeches were very good, but this guy had a screw loose. Oh, it was Congressman Joseph P. Kennedy II.

The guy who sang "Love Changes Everything" wasn't a professional singer, but he sang it with heart. I've always liked that song.

The Governor of Massachusetts gave a moving speech, and said some wonderful things about Kennedy's love of singing. That's something I hadn't know about Ted Kennedy.

John McCain's speech was very good, but the first speech that moved me to tears, were John Kerry's and that of Orrin Hatch. the list of speakers is here (click). It's interesting that no women spoke, except for Caroline Kennedy at the end.
Joe Biden and Caroline Kennedy did the final speeches, and moved me to tears. Then everybody sang "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling," and it was over.

What stuck me most was how very human this evening was. It wasn't a political event, even though almost all of the speakers were politicians. These were people grieving a man they loved, telling loving stories about him. It was over three hours long, and I'm glad I watched the whole thing.

God bless you, Ted Kennedy.

-Joe Offer- (revised at 10:25 PM, EDT)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:36 PM

I got this on an e-mail list today, and thought it might be of interest to many of you. The memorial service startes at 7PM Mudcat time, not long from now.
-Joe-

    Dear Joe,

    Tonight, we will celebrate Senator Kennedy's life at a memorial service at the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston.

    We would like to remember his life in the same way as he lived it: with all of you.

    Join us at 7 p.m. on TedKennedy.org, which will feature a live video stream of the service:

    http://www.tedkennedy.org/live

    Tens of thousands of you have shared your memories and sympathies with us in person at the library, on TedKennedy.org, Facebook, or Twitter.

    Your words have made us laugh, cry, and remember. We could not be more appreciative. Thank you.

    The Kennedy Family

    p.s. If you'd like to share your own memories of the Senator, please click here:


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,bflat
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:48 PM

As I watched the News Hour with Jim Leherer this evening, the lead story was of Sen. Kennedy's passing. Among the comments of average people was the story of the young girl who he mentored in a reading program, one on one. Apparently, this was something he did regularly with this child, building a relationship to encourage education. When he became ill he wrote to her that he wouldn't be able to continue and sent along an autographed book with a personal message to hopefully inspire her to continue to enjoy reading. I believe he also secured his replacement. She is still too young to fully appreciate the Senators' involvement in establishing the literacy program, but one day she is likely to understand.
There doesn't seend to be that there was ever an occasion for hoopla, or political breast pounding as far as I can see. I think this example tells a lot about a person. To me, he is a man who had redeemed himself. And his legislative oeuvre earned him the love and respect of millions of Americans and Internationals.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:46 PM

JAFP - Just another politician.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:41 PM

Joe, the public option is a compromise.

And that's all I'm gonna write in this thread besides RIP, Senator Kennedy.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: civilservant
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 06:25 PM

A couple of anagrams

Edward Kennedy - Ed randy, Ed knew!

Senator Edward Kennedy - Drowns dear and keen yet


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 04:25 PM

Reality will be resumed on the Sheehan thread!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 04:18 PM

Azizi, I don't think Ted Kennedy would have expected Orrin Hatch to sell out to the other side. What Hatch and Kennedy did that was so remarkable, was that they were able to do the hard work to harrmer out a compromise that served the needs of all.

-Joe-

Oh, and Cocytus, welcome to the Mudcat Cafe. Remember to use the same name each and every time you post.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,Cocytus
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:33 PM

I'm glad Ted Kennedy is in his new resting place.

Dante's Hell, Level 9 - Cocytus

This is the deepest level of hell, where the fallen angel Satan himself resides. His wings flap eternally, producing chilling cold winds that freeze the thick ice found in Cocytus. The three faces of Satan, black, red, and yellow, can be seen with mouths gushing bloody foam and eyes forever weeping, as they chew on the three traitors, Judas, Brutus, and Cassius. This place is furthest removed from the source of all light and warmth. Sinners here are frozen deep in the ice, faces out, eyes and mouths frozen shut. Traitors against God, country, family, and benefactors lament their sins in this frigid pit of despair.

He would have got there a lot sooner if his Deathcare was in place. No brain tumor treatment for anyone in their seventies.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:21 PM

Regarding the "Heading Home" song whose link Joe posted:

See these two viewer's comments from the YouTube video:
(which isn't a video and doesn't include a photo collage, but does have one photo of Senator Kennedy and Senator Hatch)


zipster53:

"Senator Hatch:
As a further tribute to your old friend, could you help fulfill Senator Kennedy's dream of ensuring all Americans affordable health care? That would be a real tribute to Teddy."

**

mukome:

"Dear Senator Hatch,

Everyone on the YouTubes is saying this is you singing.

Please inform people that the singer is actually Tony Middleton. Thank you."

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=Hr5oyEDGYkw&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DHr5oyEDGYkw


**

For what it's worth, if I were rating this song on my aesthetic scale, I'd give it a "3" out of a possible "5" (with "5" being the highest). I thought the words & the tune were just okay. But the tempo dragged a bit for my taste.

And, also for what it's worth, I co-sign what zipster53 wrote. If Senator Hatch wants to honor his friend Senator Kennedy, he'll support the public option in the health care bill, and he'll advocate for that option among his fellow Republicans.

Do you see either of these real ways to honor Senator Kennedy happening?

Me neither.

For that reason, I'd give that song a FAIL.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:04 PM

Thanks, Joe. It needed to be said. I think I'll post this:

"Personally, I mourn the loss of my dear friend Ted Kennedy. I will miss sparring with him over policy, his unparalleled skills as a legislator, his wonderful sense of humor, and his generous nature. And Americans from all points on the political spectrum can surely admire the example of a United States senator who was dedicated to the last to advancing the vision of America that he held so dearly." Senator Orrin Hatch

Orrin Hatch's REAL Opinion of Ted Kennedy


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:49 PM

Better fasten your seat belts Joe....Just in case.


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Subject: ADD: Headed Home (Sen. Orrin Hatch & Phil Springer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:43 PM

Oh, and since this is a music forum, let's take a look at the song Republican Senator Orrin Hatch wrote to honor his friend Ted Kennedy:

HEADED HOME
(Senator Orrin Hatch and Phil Springer)

Through the darkness
We can find a pathway
That will take us half way
To the stars.

Through the rain and fog
We can find a clear day
Shoo the shadows and doubts away
And touch the legacy that is ours.

Yours and mine
And our children's
For all time.

Just honor him
Honor him
And every fear
Will be a thing of the past.

America, America
We're headed home
We're headed home
At last.

Just honor him
Honor him
And on the reefs of despair
We shall not crash.

America
America
We're sailing home
Sailing home
America
America
We're headed home
Headed home
At last.


Song text from this video and article (click) from ABC news. I'm not sure I like the song all that much, but I sure appreciate the sentiments.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:14 PM

Donuel says: I turned to CNN and there was Sen. Orrin Hatch saying "Ted Kennedy was a monstrously partisan tax and spend Liberal. No one matched his verbiosity..."

This is another quote you'll find only on Mudcat. You heard it here first, folks, straight from Donuel's rather vivid imagination.

So, what's the truth, Donuel?

The truth is that Senator Hatch had some wonderful things to say about Ted Kennedy. See CBS News for moving tributes from Hatch and other members of the Senate. Also see the Los Angeles Times for how Hatch responded to Kennedy's seizure at the Inaugural luncheon. The press often referred to Republican Hatch as a "very close friend" of Ted Kennedy. In a very moving article, the Deseret News of Utah described old friends Hatch and Kennedy as "the odd couple." Hatch and Kennedy were wonderful examples of how respect and friendship can overcome ideological differences and bring about reasonable and workable compromise.

Donuel, if you keep twisting the truth, how can you expect anybody to believe you?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:44 PM

Probably just as well Jesse Helms died first, or he'd be quick to hop on this thread also.

The News & Observer, a North Carolina newspaper.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM

There's what he was, and there's what he accomplished. May be two sides of the same coin, but the former doesn't negate the latter.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:51 AM

Sharon's right.....Mr Kennedy was 100% "liberal" and 100% hypocrite.

It's easy to be a "liberal" when your born with a silver spoon in yer mouth.

The whole family including old Joe and JFK were no sort of role models....Capitalist to the core and carrying the guilt that only the ultra rich know!

Destructive lifestyles.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Arkie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 10:23 AM

Ted Kennedy had his personal demons, but he also used his talent, wealth, and influence to make life richer and more satisfying for the common folk of this country. He could have lived a life of luxury and indulged himself completely, but he chose to battle for those others would repress and exploit. His political life was spent serving the people of his state and country and he served them well. He died with the welfare of his country on his mind.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 09:30 AM

In between all the news about Michael Jackson I heard something about Ted Kennedy dieing of a brain disorder. I turned to CNN and there was Sen. Orrin Hatch saying "Ted Kennedy was a monstrously partisan tax and spend Liberal. No one matched his verbiosity..."

Hmmm

I heard more reasoned accounts of his life and death on npr.

My wife had the wonderful opportunity to work with this man and at a facility sponsored by his siter Eunice. I only met him once here in DC. Everything about him was unselfish.   His dedication to justice fairness and the dignity of the common man and woman is unmatched by anyone I know perhaps due to the crippling breaks he recieved in his early life.
Hemmingway wrote, "Everyone's life is broken in places but there are rare people who grow stronger at those breaks and become larger than life itself.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Raptor
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 08:28 AM

Ya Cats one dead girl and they call you bad, unbelievable.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 08:16 AM

CS.......There is a plethora of books on the entire affair and not all agree what happened. Nor do the medical or police reports and analysis all agree.

Factually known? Kennedy was drunk and drove off the bridge. His passenger (for whatever reason), Mary Jo Kopechne dies as a result. Kennedy's actions were erratic in the aftermath and less than heroic. He expressed both regret and shame, but not in a timely fashion.

Beyond that, theories abound and every author seems to have one. Most claim they have uncovered new evidence which they really haven't. The truth of the night died with Kennedy and he well may have shared everything he actually knew....or not.

On the flip side, take a look at what bills he authored and the legislation he pushed through. Like I said, maybe we can never pay for our wrongs but he tried. He had both flaws and greatness. Many don't seem to see that or can't get past Mary Jo.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: jeddy
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:58 AM

isn't it about time to let sharon off now?

that 'report' sounds very one sided. still if it sold copies who cares whether it is balence and true? this is why i don't buy any papers, because you just get sensational stories with no basis in fact.

thanks C.S   no one is perfect and i would hate anyone to forget my flaws when i am gone, it would prove they really didn't know me at all. we are usually our own biggest critics and we judge ourselves the most harshly.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:56 AM

"It was nine hours before he reported the accident. In the meantime, he walked back to his motel, complained to the manager about a noisy party, took a shower, went to sleep, ordered newspapers when he woke up and spoke to a friend and two lawyers before finally calling the police.

Divers later estimated that if he had called them immediately, they would have had time to pull out Mary Jo. She had not drowned, but had survived in an air pocket inside the car - she was asphyxiated only when the oxygen ran out several hours later."

Not a fan of The Mail, but I was wondering if this statement is factually correct? If so, the incident is certainly worthy of comment in the context of an obituary.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:49 AM

LMAO......Thanks for that unbiased reporting Garg. I'm sure such a reliable reporting source such as The Mail with no agenda except the truth is to be believed by all.....of the dimwitted, dumbass, bigoted, shitkickers, the world over. Send Sharon a subscription on me. I'd be happy to get one for you but I think you already have one.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:16 AM

The heros we lionize says a great deal about ourselves.

EXCERPTS -

THE MAIL on-line August 27, 2009

Ted Kennedy: The Senator of Sleaze who was a drunk sexual bully... and left a young woman to die

By Charlie Laurence

A drunk Ted had been driving back from a party to the family 'compound' on Martha's Vineyard when he veered off a bridge and into a deep tidal dyke.

It was nine hours before he reported the accident. In the meantime, he walked back to his motel, complained to the manager about a noisy party, took a shower, went to sleep, ordered newspapers when he woke up and spoke to a friend and two lawyers before finally calling the police.

Divers later estimated that if he had called them immediately, they would have had time to pull out Mary Jo. She had not drowned, but had survived in an air pocket inside the car - she was asphyxiated only when the oxygen ran out several hours later.

As he entered the Senate, Kennedy was admired for his commanding 6ft 2in stature and the good looks that seemed a family blessing. But he was already drinking and womanising with the greed that has become known as a vice of Kennedy men.

His brothers got away with it, but Ted Kennedy's divorce removed the last bounds of shame and he plunged into a life that left him looking like a Saturday night drunk, waving a bottle and calling for any woman who could tolerate him. He staggered from scandal to scandal, reduced to fodder for lurid ' supermarket' tabloid newspapers.

One congressional aide, just 16, told of being propositioned by Kennedy from the back seat of his limousine in Capitol Hill. She testified that he leaned from the window, waved a wine bottle and asked whether she or a friend she was with wanted to join him.

He reeked of drink by nine in the morning and could be relied on to be bawling drunk at four in the afternoon. In Washington's top La Brasserie restaurant, he once threw a waitress over a table in a private room and tried to have sex with her.

His face, once handsome, became as round as a football, bloated and criss-crossed with the broken veins of an out-of-control drinker.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1209313/Ted-Kennedy-The-Senator-Sleaze-drunk-sexual-bully--left-young-woman-die.html


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:13 AM

I like the Obits of public figures to be "warts and all" discussion.

Frankly I wouldn't bother reading them if they weren't, because I wouldn't learn anything about the person from them.

I agree with SharonA's comment about Obits being *discussion*, as opposed to 'Tributes'. I didn't know much about Ted Kennedy, so I find the background of real interest.

Honestly discussing a public figures life in an Obit, including the darker facets, is a good thing. I don't like sugar coated whitewashes. Telling the truth, isn't "bitching" or disrespectful. Jeddy's right, just 'cos someone died, it doesn't make them a saint.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 01:41 AM

The ideologues hated Ted Kennedy - because he was not an ideologue, and they didn't understand him. But there were many people, both Republicans and Democrats, who have stepped forward to honor this great man who listened to both sides of every argument and tried to find the common ground. Maybe he realized his imperfections, and maybe that made him into a man who could respect and listen to those who disagreed with him.
I know I'm not perfect. I hope I can do the same as Ted Kennedy.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Genie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:38 AM

I think that's a good idea, Stilly.

However you feel about Ted Kennedy's political views - and I know we're not all on the same wavelength here - or Chappaquiddick (which was 40 years ago), I don't think it all has to be rehashed in every thread about Kennedy's death.

And, since I'm in this thread, for what it's worth, I don't think Mary Jo Kopechne's death was ever ruled a homicide, of any sort. We will probably never know, but if, in fact, Kennedy was not intoxicated and the car went off the bridge due to road conditions - it happens - it wasn't not a homicide, negligent or otherwise. It' was an accidental death.

If we are going to express reasonable criticism of Ted Kennedy, I hope it won't fall along strict partisan lines. I appreciate what you said, Doug R. And Ron Reagan had his mom, Nancy, on his radio show tonight. She didn't get political. She just expressed her great friendship with Ted Kennedy and admiration for him as a person and sorrow at his loss.
I was very glad to hear that.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:21 AM

Sorry, SRS, but I'm not going to protect that thread. If you have personal hangups about what you say about the dead, that's fine - but I don't think it's right for you to expect to be able to control what other people have to say. If there's any trouble in that thread, I'll close it and I won't allow another attempt.

I will say this: When the accident happened at Chappaquiddick forty years ago in in 1969, Ted Kennedy escaped - but then he went for help and went back to the scene of the accident to try to free Kopechne from the wreckage. If he really was a coward, he wouldn't have gone back. Still, he certainly wasn't as heroic as one might hope a Kennedy would be. Joe and Jack and Bobby all died martyrs. Teddy didn't show the heroism of his brothers, but what he did was certainly understandable.

And then there was his first marriage and divorce. Certainly not exemplary, I'd say - so much so, that his ex-wife wrote a book about it. According to most acounts, Teddy Kennedy was a boozer and a philanderer during his first marriage, although his second marriage seemed to be very solid. From all appearances, Victoria is a remarkable woman.

But despite all that, he was an excellent senator - they don't make senators any better than Teddy Kennedy. He had his own philosophical viewpoint which favored those who weren't wealthy or powerful, but he was certainly not a mindless ideologue. He knew how to negotiate and how to compromise, in order to get at least part of his goals accomplished for his constituents.

He wasn't an icon. He was a real human being - flawed, but able to overcome his flaws and accomplish far more than his brothers were able to accomplish in their short lives. I think his life is a wonderful lesson for all of us who realize we aren't perfect. Despite our imperfections, we have to carry on. If we don't, nobody will.

God bless you, Ted Kennedy. You had your faults, but you did a lot of good. I'm sure you're in Heaven today.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:36 PM

I started a new thread, labled as such for respectful discussion of Kennedy's life. Clones, please DO NOT merge the threads.

Those of you who are so intent on harping on partisan politics, who would smear his entire life and career based upon some bad decisions (far outweighed by good works), and insulting those of us who wish to remember Kennedy fondly, stay on this thread and duke it out amongst yourselves. I'm frankly ashamed of you.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:33 PM

In tribute to Senator "Ted" Kennedy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc6mcKUucaw&search=I%27ll%20Fly%20Away%20brother%20where%20out%20thou

"Farther Along" By The Peasall Sisters


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:28 PM

Genie, Art, Rig and Raptor: Thank you!

EBarnacle: Yup, good enough. Sounds like a plan.

Wesley: I appreciate the long-life-and-luck blessing. Right back at ya.

G'night, all.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Raptor
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM

He did a lot of good and he did some bad. Both should be discussed.

Leave Sharron alone!

I tend to agree that one responsible for antoher's death might not rest in peace either. Not to say I wish that upon anyone just that they MAY never rest in peace. (who knows)

I wonder how the deceased girl's mother feels about Mr. Kennedy?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:00 PM

Kat sez "Imo, the onus is on the writer to make sure their message is clear, Sharon. I am sure I am not the only who took Sorry, but he'll never rest in complete peace to mean exactly what it says. If you meant in his place of history, etc. you should have said so, imo."

But, Kat, you pulled that quote out of the context of my post of 26 Aug 09 - 01:51 PM, wherein I was discussing his place in history (specifically, the behaviors that had cost him the Presidency -- a higher place in history than he will have). Jeez Louise, how didactic do you require me to be in every sentence?

- - - - - - - - -

Wesley sez "C'mon - Give it a try. Say something nice about the man."

Ummmmmmmmmmmm................... Sorry. I got nuthin'. The guy just totally creeped me out.

But my colitis... Ah, therein lies a tail... I mean, tale... :-)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:53 PM

I agree with you, Sharon. There was never a time in the last 40 years when I saw Senator Kennedy on television that I didn't think of Mary Jo Kopechne. Nothing he ever did had any credibility for me after that.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Beer
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:49 PM

In a way Greg, that was the point I was making earlier when i said he received a thousand times more than a 2 month suspended sentence.
Today a man is convicted and released serving very little time and laughing on the way out. Mr.Kennedy didn't laugh. Mr. Kennedy did what was the right thing to do. He paid back to society for his mistake. And by the way, he didn't have to.
A great family with tragedies that have followed them all their lives.
Ad.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:29 PM

OK, so Ted Kennedy was responsible for the death of one person, and spent the rest of his life trying to atone for it in one way or another.

George Bush, on the other hand, is responsible for the death of tens of thousands- and is proud of the fact.

Lets keep things in perspective.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:24 PM

Sharon - It's about 6 hours later and you're still hammering away at it? OK - It's very possible that Ted screwed up. He dropped the ball. He screwed the pooch. Made a mistake. Are you happy? He had decades in the Senate. From what I understand only two other people served longer than him. But you want to make this all about one of the lowest points in his life. If that makes you happy go ahead. But it's an odd way to behave in my opinion.

C'mon - Give it a try. Say something nice about the man.

God forbid you pass away sometime soon. Would it really make any sense for your obit thread here at the Mudcat to make a big deal about a low point in your life - something like your colitis? Would that sum up your life? Would you want us to remember you that way?

"Gee that Sharon was a wonderful person - but what about her colitis? That doesn't happen to everybody you know. I wonder how that happened?"

See how silly that sounds? It makes me wonder what's really eating you about Ted Kennedy. Is there something you've left out?

I wish you a long and happy life and hope it's a very long time before we ever see an Obit thread with your name on it. Best of luck to you. And that's my last word on the subject.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:18 PM

Imo, the onus is on the writer to make sure their message is clear, Sharon. I am sure I am not the only who took Sorry, but he'll never rest in complete peace to mean exactly what it says. If you meant in his place of history, etc. you should have said so, imo.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:02 PM

Very true - the legal definition of homicide includes death by accident as well as death in self defense.   Far be it from me to make any rash assumptions as to what you may have meant, and I apologize if I made incorrect decisions based solely upon tone and context.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:34 PM

Kat, it would have been helpful if you had asked me what I meant, instead of jumping to conclusions by reading your own words into my statement! :-D


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:30 PM

All he achieved since that night could not erase what he did, and what he did not do, that night. Sorry, but he'll never rest in complete peace.

It would have been helpful if you'd explained how you meant that. The way it reads is re' his "soul," "spirit," whatever and sounds arrogant, to me.

I spoke to a friend, tonight, who had first-hand knowledge of what kind of senator Kennedy was to his constituents. She worked in MA with the poorest of the poor, in legal services, community outreach, and, eventually in groups which recommended and worked for legislation which would help their clients. Time and again, when they invited politicians to seminars, etc. in each of the areas she worked in, Senator Kennedy or one of his staff would be there. He was the only one who made sure of that, of all the politicians and it was done quietly, no cameras, no reporters, no press releases.

She also said when she was in legal services and had a case which she felt would benefit from referral to a congressional office, she would always refer them to his AND she followed up to make sure they found some kind of satisfaction/help with their cases. Sure enough, not once did any of them say "no, he did nothing for me." It was always, "yes, thank you, Senator Kennedy helped me out." Again, these were ordinary folks, most of them living in poverty, no power that a regular pol might look for when using their power to help out AND, again, he did it quietly. Lot of folks were quite thankful for him and his service which honoured their dignity.

kat


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Beer
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:29 PM

He received a thousand times more than a 2 month suspended sentence.
ad.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:26 PM

Sharon, Joe, and others, I agree that it's very reasonable to mention the relevant facts of someone's life - the good and the bad - in an obituary.   I wish, in fact, when certain other political figures -- especially Ronald Reagan -- died, that the media would have taken less of a "eulogy" approach to the discussions of their lives.    (The same was kind of done with JFK for a while, because his assassination was so shocking and he was so young.)   At any rate, I don't think one's death is a qualification for sainthood, and it's reasonable to discuss the life realistically. That's not disrespectful.   As long as it doesn't turn into a political food fight.


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Mudcat time: 26 September 5:33 AM EDT

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