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BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle

gnu 16 Jan 12 - 04:15 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jan 12 - 10:31 PM
gnu 15 Jan 12 - 08:50 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jan 12 - 06:10 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jan 12 - 05:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jan 12 - 05:36 PM
gnu 15 Jan 12 - 04:29 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jan 12 - 03:39 PM
kendall 15 Jan 12 - 08:54 AM
Jack the Sailor 14 Jan 12 - 10:56 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Jan 12 - 05:52 PM
kendall 14 Jan 12 - 05:14 PM
gnu 14 Jan 12 - 01:56 PM
kendall 14 Jan 12 - 09:45 AM
Jack the Sailor 14 Jan 12 - 05:48 AM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 12 - 06:59 PM
gnu 13 Jan 12 - 06:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 12 - 06:26 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 12 - 05:29 PM
gnu 13 Jan 12 - 05:18 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 12 - 05:07 PM
gnu 13 Jan 12 - 04:54 PM
Raptor 13 Jan 12 - 02:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 12 - 02:26 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM
gnu 13 Jan 12 - 02:18 PM
Little Hawk 13 Jan 12 - 02:12 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 12 - 01:59 PM
gnu 13 Jan 12 - 01:38 PM
Little Hawk 13 Jan 12 - 11:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 12 - 09:16 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jan 12 - 09:04 AM
Raptor 13 Jan 12 - 08:58 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 09:13 PM
gnu 12 Jan 12 - 03:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 03:38 PM
Jeri 12 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM
gnu 12 Jan 12 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 12 Jan 12 - 02:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 12 Jan 12 - 02:48 PM
Raptor 12 Jan 12 - 02:38 PM
Raptor 12 Jan 12 - 02:34 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 12 Jan 12 - 01:42 PM
Raptor 12 Jan 12 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 12 Jan 12 - 01:31 PM
kendall 12 Jan 12 - 01:25 PM
Raptor 12 Jan 12 - 01:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 12:14 PM
Raptor 12 Jan 12 - 11:39 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 10:24 AM
Jeri 12 Jan 12 - 10:07 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 10:01 AM
Raptor 12 Jan 12 - 09:32 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 08:45 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Jan 12 - 08:28 AM
kendall 12 Jan 12 - 08:21 AM
Raptor 11 Jan 12 - 08:27 PM
gnu 11 Jan 12 - 08:25 PM
Bobert 11 Jan 12 - 08:09 PM
kendall 11 Jan 12 - 07:18 PM
Raptor 11 Jan 12 - 06:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jan 12 - 03:55 PM
gnu 11 Jan 12 - 03:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jan 12 - 03:13 PM
gnu 11 Jan 12 - 02:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jan 12 - 02:55 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Jan 12 - 02:55 PM
kendall 11 Jan 12 - 02:40 PM
Raptor 11 Jan 12 - 02:38 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jan 12 - 01:51 PM
kendall 11 Jan 12 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 12 - 01:05 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Jan 12 - 03:48 AM
kendall 09 Jan 12 - 09:07 PM
gnu 09 Jan 12 - 03:26 PM
Raptor 09 Jan 12 - 12:13 PM
Ebbie 18 Aug 09 - 01:06 AM
Maryrrf 17 Aug 09 - 10:43 PM
Ebbie 17 Aug 09 - 10:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Aug 09 - 10:07 PM
Bobert 17 Aug 09 - 07:55 PM
Maryrrf 17 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM
Donuel 17 Aug 09 - 03:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Aug 09 - 03:07 PM
Riginslinger 17 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM
Ebbie 16 Aug 09 - 10:27 PM
Peace 16 Aug 09 - 10:03 PM
SharonA 16 Aug 09 - 09:11 PM
Bobert 16 Aug 09 - 08:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 09 - 07:57 PM
Rapparee 16 Aug 09 - 06:39 PM
SharonA 16 Aug 09 - 06:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 09 - 05:24 PM
SharonA 16 Aug 09 - 04:08 PM
Rapparee 16 Aug 09 - 02:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 09 - 02:51 PM
SharonA 16 Aug 09 - 12:53 PM
Raptor 16 Aug 09 - 07:42 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM
irishenglish 15 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Aug 09 - 04:37 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Aug 09 - 03:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Aug 09 - 01:49 PM
MarkS 15 Aug 09 - 01:35 PM
Ebbie 15 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM
Bobert 15 Aug 09 - 09:49 AM
Jeri 15 Aug 09 - 09:00 AM
John Hardly 15 Aug 09 - 07:39 AM
Bobert 15 Aug 09 - 07:20 AM
kendall 15 Aug 09 - 04:00 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Aug 09 - 11:39 PM
Rapparee 14 Aug 09 - 09:59 PM
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gnu 14 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Kendall 14 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM
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gnu 14 Aug 09 - 02:23 PM
SINSULL 14 Aug 09 - 02:18 PM
PoppaGator 14 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM
gnu 14 Aug 09 - 01:48 PM
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Jean(eanjay) 14 Aug 09 - 10:14 AM
SINSULL 14 Aug 09 - 10:10 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 04:15 PM

I'd rather she did me in the years ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 10:31 PM

Winona has an amazing smile, amazing eyes, great cheekbones. And she's a very good actress. I hope she does well in the years ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 08:50 PM

THAT woman is HIGHLY capable, JtS. What a wonederful smile! That's what always attracted me physically... the smile. I am a sucker for a nice smile. My downfall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 06:10 PM

Fer Chrissake, gnu, I wasn't envisioning her "on the pitch"!

If she can throw a tighter spiral than me...well...that's fine. ;-D I don't mind. I like being around highly capable women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 05:47 PM

speaking of tight spirals


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 05:36 PM

I'll bet that she can throw a tighter spiral than Little Hawk. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 04:29 PM

Winnie wouldn't last two seconds on any pitch. I wouldn't play her. Cheerleader maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 03:39 PM

"Holding a grudge is like allowing him to live in your head rent free."

Exactly, Kendall! That's one of the best reasons for forgiving...or at least letting go of something that happened in the past and moving on.

I only recently found out about Michale Vick's personal history. I'm certainly not going to stress out my mind over it long after the fact. As for Michael Vick, since he happens to be quite good at playing football, I think it's probably best for all concerned that he continue doing so in spite of the fact that he once did a bad thing. It makes more sense to let him resume playing football than forcing him to do something else instead...something that he's probably not particularly good at. Might as well let him do what he has the best ability to do.

Somebody mentioned rugby...it seems almost like a giant brawl on a playing field to me. I think a person would have to be a bit crazy (or hypnotized by cultural programming) to play that game. If I had to choose between them, I'd opt for American football. If I were offered an additional choice, however, I'd opt for Winona Ryder. ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 12 - 08:54 AM

Sigh


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 10:56 PM

Brady and the Pats are on Tebow and Denver like a pit bull on a wiener dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 05:52 PM

How bout them Saints!


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 05:14 PM

Holding a grudge is like allowing him to live in your head rent free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 01:56 PM

I had never heard about the torture part. Only about the fighting. Neither can be condoned. And, I really just can't think about it any more. It's too disturbing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 09:45 AM

That word, Forgiveness; Let's examine its true meaning. It does not mean that we condone what he did. It means that we are no longer willing to let that act simmer in the back of our minds and go on and on about it ad nauseum.(I know that's not a real word, but it should be)
As Omar Khayyam said to the king of Persia, "This too shall pass."
I will never condone what he did and I will never forget it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 05:48 AM

Sorry, just a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 06:59 PM

Did you see the picture? Mike Vick's face on a punching bag?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 06:47 PM

Nope. I'd relly like to smack the real deal, even tho it's wrong. Like and actually strike are very different. Not my call, I suppose. Just the way I feel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 06:26 PM

GNu does this work for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 05:29 PM

What, gn-ze??? You don't have a dog to kick??? (Sick joke, but, WTH...)...

Maybe you need a punching bag???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 05:18 PM

Well said, Bobert. And, as much as dislike saying it, he deserves to be believed. "Every dog is entitled to his first bite." That is the law in these here parts.

Even tho I would like to smack him, on accounta he ain't a dog and, as a grown man, he has responsibilities to know right from wrong and not blame his actions on his earlier downtrodden life, somethin just tells me in me heart he deserves a second chance. EVEN THO I wanna smack him REAL bad. If he can help stem this unreal crap that he was part of, at least that is a good reason to let him off, no matter if he doesn't mean what he says.

Make any sense? I mean, besides the fact that I would seriously like to smack him. Maybe more than once. I suppose that is barabaric as well, but that's the way I feel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 05:07 PM

Rugby is worse than organized football... It is an somewhat organized rumble, at best...

As for Vick??? Who the heck knows... People can change... Not many do, however, and most folks just get "more so"... I'd like to think that Michael Vick has changed but there's only one person in the world who really knows...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 04:54 PM

Yes, he did. All the more reason why Yankee football is superior to football. No mention was made of a rugby ball but perhaps LH doesn't know of rugby. If so, LH, stay away from it. It's played in much the same manner as you have described except it's an extremely boring game when compared to Yankee football.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching rugby and I do so regularly... but it pales in comparison to Yankee football.

Notice no emoticon. >;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:46 PM

I'll laugh out loud, it was pretty funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:26 PM

I thought that Richard, being British would think it boorish of me to laugh at my own joke. Alas and alack! If there were only a"dry humour" "smilie?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM

Thanks. I think. But didn't you say that the ball can't roll properly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:18 PM

I thought it was funny, too, but also that it would be impolite to laugh out loud. >;-)

An emoticon always makes whatever you post (more) acceptable. >;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:12 PM

But, Jack...I am just trying to keep the ball rolling, don't you see?

"Follow the bouncing ball..."

(I did think your reply to Richard Bridge was clever, apt, hilarious in fact, one of the best posts I've read on this entire thread.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 01:59 PM

Hawk, You simply rephrased what Richard said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 01:38 PM

Me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:04 AM

OH!!! That was provocative, Jack. I bet that made Richard grit his teeth and drop his capo on the floor. :-D I hope we can now look forward to at least 50 or more intemperate tit-for-tat posts on this thread to get it sorted out to everyone's (cough! cough!) satisfaction.

I will add to the fire by saying that only a drooling halfwit would bother spending his time staring at a bunch of steroid-pumped, over-muscled gladiators in shoulder pads and helmets beating the hell out of each other over a stupid-looking pointy-ended ball that won't even roll in a straight line.

You're "it".


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:16 AM

Yes. You are correct. The only true entertainment is archaic dusty irrelevant songs croaked by middle aged part timers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:04 AM

I don't understand the idolatry afforded to sub-humans who can kick balls anyway. That's inflated bladders of wind, not testicles. Come to that there are apparently morons who admire boxers, wrestlers, and cage fighters. Last days of Rome come to mind?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 08:58 AM

Can we go back to our regulairly schedualed disagreement without mentioning my balls and what sould be done with them now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 09:13 PM

A 3-year-old boy examined his testicles while taking a bath. 'Mom', he asked, 'Are these my brains?'
'Not yet,' she replied.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:52 PM

I knew one higher order mammal once. Man, she could... ahhh, nevermind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:38 PM

Gnu the statement can bite away. Its the higher order mammals that worry me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM

Well, it was gettin' a bit teste in here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:59 PM

That kinda statement could back ta bite ya in the balls, JtS. >;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:59 PM

No doubt about that! Ook! Ook!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:51 PM

A man is a better man with relaxed balls.... is all I am saying!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:48 PM

Don't go volunteerin' me for nothin', Jack. I got enough on my plate as it is. Bein' "available" ain't the same thing as bein' "willing".

Just think, though...if Michael Vick had had a service like that available to him way back when, he might not of got so tense. And then he might not've tortured that poor dog in the first place. Why, he mighta become a real nice guy instead and gone around doin' good deeds and helpin' little old ladies cross the street and stuff. Makes ya think, don't it?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:38 PM

Not that there is anything wrong with that but I don't go that way. All the power to ya though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:34 PM

Hey sailor what is your fasination with licking my balls?

You know what, don't answer that, I'm creeped out enough already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:16 PM

>>>You don't seem to get it. He is making millions of dollars because some people believe his shit. He is only doing what any smart agent would tell him to do.<<<

He is making millions because he is skilled at Football. He'd be playing, if he did just one of the three things he is doing for the HSUS. He certainly could have kept his million dollars.

>>>Why do you feel he is entitled to forgiveness?<<<

Everyone is entitled to forgiveness. As Jeri said, I can't see his soul. He is outwardly doing quite a bit. What is more he is putting himself in contact with dog lovers and kids who may become dog fighters in the work he is doing for the HSUS.

>>>Do you realy believe that 18 months in a high class prison with catered food and gym facilities is suficient punishment for such an evil act?<<<

It was a stiff sentence for the time. Should Congress have passed a special law just to punish Michael Vick? Read the HSUS FAQ. They hardly get to prosecute anyone, much less a famous rich person.   Have a guess who is NOW lobbying to make the sentences stiffer?

>>>Do you think its OK to turture a dog to death?<<<

No I do not.

>>>Are you into dogfighting?<<<

No I am not. Are you into having your balls licked?

>>And I'll thank you to leave my balls out of it, Mater of fact it troubles me that you feel the need to mention my balls at all.<<

You seem very tense. Perhaps you would feel better after having your balls licked? I hear that all that you need is some peanut butter and a willing higher order mammal. Perhaps Chongo is available?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 01:42 PM

Don't blame me, Raptor. I didn't start it. In fact, I am most eager to stop thinkin' about yer balls ASAP, so I wish you would just drop the subject.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 01:37 PM

LEAVE MY BALLS OUT OF THIS YOU SICKOS!


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 01:31 PM

I am conflicted on this. On the one hand, I can't stand Michael Vick and I don't like his damn team either. On the other hand, I can't stand dogs. They got a real bad attitude toward chimps. I been assaulted by various stupid dogs in my time...and I had to kill a few of 'em too, cos they wouldn't take "no" for an answer.

Still, it sounds to me like this dog that Michael Vick tortured to death was just a poor victim of a sick human being who oughta be hung out to dry. Dogs got rights too, uh?

Then there is the question of forgiveness. Jesus said to forgive everyone. There might be somethin' to that. I would be willin' to give it consideration. But did King Kong forgive the corrupt bozos who kidnapped him and shot him off the Empire State Building? I don't think so! My guess is he would've been happy to stomp 'em all into the pavement if he got the chance.

So do we forgive Michael Vick after he has "paid his dues"? Hmmmm. What would be better? To go on punishin' the man forever or to let the matter pass and let him get on with playin' football? Hmmmmm.

It's a tough one. I gotta have another drink and think about it some.

And then there's the matter of Raptor's balls...sheesh! Gimme a break. You ever notice how hard it is to not think about somethin' when somebody else mentions it?

Like try this: Don't think about an elephant right now! Don't do it. Not on any condition. You will be sorry if you think about an elephant.

See? Enough to drive ya crazy, ain't it?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 01:25 PM

He can fake sorrow all he wants, is is still one sick son of a bitch and he will never change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 01:08 PM

You don't seem to get it. He is making millions of dollars because some people believe his shit. He is only doing what any smart agent would tell him to do.

Why do you feel he is entitled to forgiveness?

Do you realy believe that 18 months in a high class prison with catered food and gym facilities is suficient punishment for such an evil act?

Do you think its OK to turture a dog to death?

Are you into dogfighting?

And I'll thank you to leave my balls out of it, Mater of fact it troubles me that you feel the need to mention my balls at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 12:14 PM

According to the HSUS.

Vick, received a very harsh sentence given the law at the time. He served it and earned his parole.
Vick lobbied Congress for tougher penalties for Dog fighting crimes
Vick donated one million dollars to an organization that rehabilitates fighting dogs.
Vick speaks regularly to youth to discourage "Dog fighting culture."

Name another person on earth who has done as much to combat dog fighting in the past three years.

What do you want him to do? Lick your balls?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 11:39 AM

Lets think about this "Walking the walk" shit.

If he gives out some lame apology to the Gosip rag reading plebeans, And seems to be as remorsefull as he can while his shifty eyes gave him away in the 60 minutes interview, and donate $1000000 of the multi-million dollar salary he only gets if a few people are stunned enough to beleve he is sorry, Then he gets to play football to make said money.

If he didn't get out with this, albeit transparent, change of mind I'd doubt he could get a mimimum wage job sweeping up shit at the zoo.

Do you also credit Charles Manson for the new tougher chrimes against murder?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 10:24 AM

Jeri, Thank you for making that point. It clarifies what I have been trying to say. You are right. There is no way to know what is in Vick's heart.

I look at his performance, or any other player's performance on and off the field and see the same thing. Are they doing it for the love of the game? For the money?

Why do so many have charitable foundations? To really help people? To have a golf tourney named for them? For a tax break. Look at Tim Tebow does he wear his religion on his sleeve to save souls or to sell Jerseys with his name on them. There is no proof that he is doing the former, but the sales numbers show that he is doing the latter, even before his success of the last couple of months.

I admire Vick as a football player, how he is as a moral human being is not for me to judge. How he is a role model? He does seem to be making a substantial effort to mitigate his past mistakes. But I really don't care about that when I watch him play, anymore than I care about how "Godly" Tebow is or what charities Tom Brady or Drew Brees support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 10:07 AM

None of us are in a position to KNOW what's in Vick's heart, whether he truly cares about dogs now or just truly cares about his image. We can't know--we have to rely on gossip and reports from the media, and that's not knowing.

I'm sort of amazed that his career hasn't seemed to suffer much. I'm sort of amazed at what people (OK, football fans) will overlook. On one hand, I'm amazed.

On the other, I'm not, because WE CAN'T REALLY KNOW what's in Vick's heart. We, however, are prettydamnedsure he's a good football player.

People might want a crucifixion, but I don't see that as our job. Remembering-- maybe. Not watching football games with him in them-- sure. Never letting the guy own a dog again-- I hope so. Making other people feel bad for not agreeing with the views that we hold because of what we've heard about him-- no.

Me, I really do think he's changed, mostly because it's good for his career. If the change in behavior opened him up to a change in thinking, it's a good thing. Luckily, I don't care much for football. (Go Pats, anyway!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 10:01 AM

The "Holywood gossip" article was quoting a letter that Vick had put out there. "the newly-released star and new member of the Philadephia Eagles has written a lengthy, public apology"

They mentioned the letter and quoted the letter. I posted this in response to Gnu saying that Gnu had only heard one apology which Jon Stewart had trashed. I would trust nearly any news source, no matter what it called itself, to quote a letter in the public domain. So I did not look for a second source.


Here's the deal. You don't think he is sorry? Who gives a fuck whether he is or not? He is walking the walk.

According to the Humane Society of The United States, an organization which was instrumental in prosecuting him and presented evidence used in his trial,

Vick
received a very harsh sentence given the law at the time. He served it, was model prisoner and earned his parole.
Vick lobbied Congress for tougher penalties for Dog fighting crimes
Vick donated one million dollars to an organization that rehabilitates fighting dogs.
Vick speaks regularly to youth to discourage "Dog fighting culture."

It is arguable, almost a certainty, that Vick, since his conviction has made a bigger contribution to stopping dog fighting in the US that any other individual in the history of this country. He doesn't seem sorry enough for you? Tough shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 09:32 AM

Please don't take it personally that I've never heard of the Holywood gossip or that I don't consider it to be a trust worthy source, Or that I think it terribly nieve to believe a piece of shit who tourtured dogs for fun, when he says that he's sorry,or that I don't buy the fact that anyone displaying such pure evil can be rehabilitated.

I'm sure you are a great guy, how can you not be, you're from the tropical Island of NFLD!


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 08:45 AM

Raptor,

You are being very disrespectful to me. I will not return that treatment. You sarcastically commented report of the apology because of its source. Here is another source. The Humane Society of the US

It seems that the HSUS believes that Vick was "strongly" punished considering the law at the time.

"Given the penalties available at the time he was sentenced, U.S. District Court Judge Henry Hudson meted out a strong penalty to Vick. He paid a steep price for his crimes, in addition to serving his prison sentence. The HSUS has worked to upgrade the federal animal fighting law twice in the last two years. The penalties are much more severe now than in April 2007, when Vick's home was raided. The HSUS has been pushing for felony-level penalties for animal fighting crimes for years because that's the only way to drive criminals out of this business."

Vick seems to be making a substantial effort ($1,000,000) to mitigate the damage and to decrease dog fighting.

"After meeting with Vick and hearing him express his remorse, Pacelle consulted with The HSUS' board of directors and staff. Despite our utter disgust with what Vick did and our leading role in making sure he was convicted and punished for his crimes, we decided that shunning Vick forever would do no good for any animal. Vick paid $1 million for the care and rehabilitation of the dogs at Bad Newz Kennels. Now, we want him to contribute his time to attack the problem by reaching inner-city youth. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 08:28 AM

"Anyone who apologizes for that sicko is as sick as he is."

Are you referring to me? I don't apologize for other people. But I do believe the man has served his time. I also believe that he received harsher punishment than his cohorts because he was famous. I think you all might have a legit beef with the prosecutors and whether you think the sentencing guidelines are stiff enough. But Vick is an ex-con who has done all that he was told to do. If you hate dog fighting, perhaps you can find a more current and productive way to express that.

Why Don't you support the Humane Society like this guy does?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 08:21 AM

To me, they are all little boys that never grew up emotionally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:27 PM

I'd say the Lions are going that way this year with Suh and the others getting flagged for dirty play. Shit if you shake thier coaches hand too fast he'll try to pick a fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:25 PM

Odd you should say that, Bobert. I have never liked the Eagles. Always found them to be "dirty" players... nasty... bent on dirty play and injury. I COULD be wrong, but smash-mouth is one thing and dirty is another. Just always felt that way. Like Philly in hockey... just nasty and dirty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:09 PM

The Eagles is the perfect team for Vick...

Bunch of sickos...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 07:18 PM

Anyone who apologizes for that sicko is as sick as he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:31 PM

Wow if the Holywood gossip printed it it must be true.

Great reporting.
I think his publisist might have written that or his agent mabey.
Just a guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:55 PM

""Sorry, Mikey, I didn't pick up that block like I should have, dawg."

I also think that there is zero of the above going on because of his crimes. Keep in mind that his aggressive running invites hits and that he is over 30. and only 6 feet tall. The injuries are par for the course. Also a lot of QBs get hit more than he does and he is the only one, so far, convicted of financing and abetting dog fighting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:30 PM

Thanks Jts. I hadn't seen that. All I saw was what I said above.

In any case, there is still a part of me that says, "Karma's a bitch, eh Mikey?" I know that ain't right, but it's the way I feel.

I hope he gets the help he needs. Of course, he obviously has and will on accounta there is a lotta $$$ ridin on his success.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:13 PM

apology news


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:59 PM

JtS... "got out and apologized"

Ah, noooo, not that I know of. He was interviewed and asked if their was anything he wish he could change about his life... any thing he was sorry for. He did NOT mention the dog fighting. John Stewart, on The Daily Show (I think it was him) showed a clip of the interview on and went apeshit on Vick.

Yes, he paid his debt and, yes, he deserves a second chance and, yes, I am enjoying seeing him getting hit hard, especially when his own team players allow it to happen... "Sorry, Mikey, I didn't pick up that block like I should have, dawg." Yeah, I know they have jobs and wanna keep em, but, a missed block here and there? What the hell.

Psychotic piece of trash! Sic Rover!


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:55 PM

Raptor, Worse is done to cows and chickens for your benefit every day. No one goes to jail. In fact there are government subsidies.

He wasn't the only responsible adult involved. According to the reports he was not directly involved in nearly all of the crimes. He took the heat. He took responsibility. He went to jail. He ended up losing tens of millions of income as a result. He was the only one seriously punished for the crimes. That is more than can be said for a lot of criminals out there, including the people who will be fighting animals this very night.

Do any of you believe in second chances? In rehabilitation? Give it a rest will you? Go find a current problem to moan about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:55 PM

Hear hear Raptor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:40 PM

BRAVO


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:38 PM

This, as far as I can read, is not a thread about football. Its a thread about a SOB who hung a dog by the back legs and tortured it to a slow death because that son of a bitch lost some money when the dog didn't kill its oponent in a fight it was forced to be in.

I am troubled by anyone who thinks that such a monster did his time after 18 months at "Club Fed".

If you want to ignore this thread and go talk football there is a thread for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 01:51 PM

Vick was one of the most famous players in Football before he was arrested. His cousins all ratted on him and got slaps on the wrist. He went to federal prison did his time, got out and apologized. Case closed. Lets talk about football.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 07:15 AM

If he jumped off the Empire State building and made a big hit on Broadway it would be no loss to me.I don't cre if he can throw a friggin' football to the moon, he's still sub human to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 01:05 AM

But then again, depending on how his career goes, it might go WAY UP in value!...then the loss would be YOURS!..screw it, he did his time, and if he wouldn't have got busted in the first place NOBODY would have hardly heard of him!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:48 AM

I like gnu's hint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:07 PM

Low life, scum sucking, son of a syphilitic whore's pig fucking,bastard.He's lucky I wasn't his judge.Lynching was ok for his dog, it's ok for him.
Strong post to follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 03:26 PM

This might be a TERRIBLE thing to say, but, he has been "injury prone" since his return, hasn't he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:13 PM

I saw the eagles play in Buffalo this season and the protesters were out in full force.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 01:06 AM

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Maryrrf
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:43 PM

"D.F." is Districto Federal = Mexico City


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:30 PM

"D.F.?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:07 PM

In Chiapas a few years back, orchid hunting, we boarded a plane in Tapachula. The flight was held up for a few minutes while the owner of several fighting cocks, wearing a fine western outfit with top quality Stetson and a silver-plated revolver on each hip, saw that the cages of his birds were properly stowed for the flight. We also watched, to make sure that our two coffee-picking bags of orchids were not squeezed.
Cock fighting and, as far as I know, dog fighting are legal except in the D. F.

Dog fights were held regularly outside of Juarez, attracting people from El Paso and southern New Mexico; I presume that these fights continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:55 PM

True story:

When we moved to Page County I was apprached by this guy who wanted to book me to play at a cockfight!!! Seems that live music is part of the big party...

I didn't even know that stuff was going onback then and declined the invite politely but was completely shocked...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Maryrrf
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM

Michael Vick Says He Cried In Prison

The cynic in me says that if he cried, it was because he got caught, not because he participated in dog fighting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 03:20 PM

Vick is still the dullest crayon in the box. He can't lie convincingly even about his own contrition. He can play with a ball and hurt people. Thats why he has a job in football.
Koreans eat dogs, he helped kill dogs without eating them. He is a hired TV gladiator that paid the price for someone else's sense of morality who loves dogs but will play gladiators against each other with at least one ambulance taking away an injured man per game.

FUnny morality if you think of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 03:07 PM

Peace has expanded with more information on the dog-fighting problem.
The culture should be the focus of attack, rather than one individual who happens to have a high profile.

Reviling Vick and barring him from employment in his profession fails to address the overall problem.

Canada has inadequate deterrents.
Mike Draper, Ontario SPCA says it is a problem in SW and central Ontario. He says a loophole in regulations is that it is not illegal to train dogs for fighting, and fighting fines in Ontario are low- $2000 or six months in jail. This has caused some Michigan dog-fighters to move operations to Ontario.

Nova Scotia SPCA says it is time to ban dog fighting in the province- Nov 18, 2008.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM

If he's playing quarter back for the Eagles, and the Eagles are playing the Giants, then the Giants need to train a vicious Perro de Presa Canario to play defensive end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 10:27 PM

Vick getting back in the game shouldn't be such a surprise to you. Everyone was warned:

"April 3, 2009 — Vick testifies in federal bankruptcy court that he has become a changed man and will do all the right things upon his release from prison, including repaying his creditors by resuming his professional football career."

I am of more than one mind in all this. On the one hand learning of cruelty to children and animals is the one thing that reduces me to helpless tears. On the other, I am also aware that there are people who just don't get it. .

These are people among us who are decent, loving, 'god-fearing' folks who simply lack a frame of reference for that kind of empathy, who seem to think of animals of all kinds as being fair game (no pun intended) for anything they might wish to do to them for whatever reason, whether for convenience, curiosity, punishment, example, greater profit or what have you. Look at the Amish and their horrifying puppy mills.

As has been said above, dog fighting and cock fighting goes on all over this country. The owners of the animals are not the only ones complicit in this- people gather to watch and to lay their money down. I understand large chunks of money change hands. And yet I have no difficulty believing that these are people who love their families, perhaps even their pets- and one challenges their love of country at one's own peril..

Have any of you watched and enjoyed 'The Sopranos'? I have a problem with anyone espousing the virtues of mercy and compassion, of legalities and fair play, and yet who fell in love with that series.

I used to live in Oregon. In the hills above various towns are fighting cocks, each in its own little 'house' visible from the dirt roads. It is illegal to fight them but NOT illegal to breed and keep them. And yet everyone knows for what purpose they are being kept. They are not maintained in top condition as pets; you can lay your money on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 10:03 PM

From CNN in 2007.

CNN) -- An estimated 40,000 people in the United States are involved in professional dogfighting, an illegal blood sport with fight purses as high as $100,000.

The latest accusations against Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick and three other people highlight the problem. They are accused in an indictment that describes dogs being routinely executed if they didn't fight fiercely.

The indictment was handed down Tuesday by a federal grand jury in Richmond, Virginia.

The nightmare of dogfighting is growing, according to the Humane Society of the United States.

John Goodwin, an expert on animal fighting with the Humane Society, says there are an estimated 40,000 professional dogfighters in the United States, involved in putting on fights and buying and selling fighting dogs. Watch what goes on at a high-stakes dog fight »

But, Goodwin adds, there could be as many as 100,000 additional people involved in "streetfighting" -- informal dogfighting, often involving young people in gangs.

"It's far more pervasive than people think and it's definitely been on the upswing in the past five to 10 years," he told CNN. See how dogfighters operate and have their own language »

Statistics from animal shelters give another indicator of the rise in dogfighting, Goodwin said. Fifteen years ago, 2 to 3 percent of the dogs coming into animal shelters were pit bulls; now, he said, pit bulls make up about a third. At one shelter in Jersey City, New Jersey, Goodwin said, the figure is 65 percent, with 20 percent of them showing the scars that indicate they have been fighting dogs.

A database run by animal advocacy group Pet-abuse.com, which collects reports of animal abuse, shows reports of dogfighting cases increased from 16 in 2000 to 127 in 2006. The group has found 74 cases reported so far this year.

Dogfighting is illegal in all 50 states. It's a misdemeanor in Idaho and Wyoming, and a felony everywhere else. But in some states where dogfighting is a felony, it's still perfectly legal to own a fighting dog or be a spectator at a dogfight. See where it's legal to be a spectator »

A bill signed by President Bush in May made the federal law against dogfighting tougher, by strengthening penalties to felony level. The law bans interstate commerce, import and export related to animal fighting activities. Violators can now be sentenced to three years in jail and a $250,000 fine. Previously the maximum sentence was a year in jail.

Despite the laws, dogfighting is big business. Goodwin said it's impossible to estimate the amount of money involved, but the purse for a top-level professional fight could be $100,000.

"There are about a dozen underground dogfighting magazines, and about half a dozen ... registries that are exclusively used by either dogfighters or people that are fighting dog enthusiasts," Goodwin said. "You have an organized infrastructure for what is a criminal industry."


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 09:11 PM

Very well put, Bobert. I watched, too, and Vick was showing other classic cues that he was lying, besides the darting eyes: he licked his lips; he gave some evasive answers; he sat back in his seat as if to be as far from the interviewer as possible (sometimes to the point that part of his head was out of the camera frame).

As was pointed out in the 60 Minutes segment by James Brown, Vick had been carefully groomed, coached and rehearsed for that interview by his attorneys and media staff. Based on that, and on his past behavior (including his contradictory statements in 2007 and his deceptiveness during a pre-sentencing polygraph test when asked about the killing of the dogs), it's impossible to determine whether anything he said in today's interview was sincere. I think we'll have to wait until he makes some spontaneous comments to reporters to see what his true mindset is. Hopefully he will not make any more spontaneous gestures such as giving fans the finger, as he did in Atlanta.

- - - - -

Q: This thread's purpose is the same as any other Mudcat thread's purpose: to allow people to give their opinions on a given subject. This thread's subject is the signing of Michael Vick to a multi-million-dollar contract by the Philadelphia Eagles, and reaction to the news by fans and others. So, yes, it's about Vick's punishment for his crime and his subsequent (and oh-so-rapid) reinstatement into the NFL.

If you wish to talk about the problem of dogfighting in American society here, you are certainly welcome to do so; it is not unrelated to the subject of this thread, but it was not my primary purpose in starting this thread. My primary purpose was to vent my frustration with a different problem: the problem of a legal system and a big-business economy that, working in tandem, give major sports stars with felony convictions some major breaks that the rest of us would never get.

But since you are so unfamiliar with Michael Vick, I suggest that you do a good bit of research into his background and his criminal case before posting again to tell the rest of us who is saying "sensible words about Vick and dog-fighting" and who is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 08:16 PM

I just finished watching Michael Vick on "60 Minutes" and during the inerview he mentioned about 7 things he was sorry for having done... One of the seven was the crime... The other six had to do with the aggrivation that being caught has caused him...

His eyes darted back and forth during questions about animal cruelty...

Okay, I'll be the first admit that alot of folks belong to a culture where this kinda of behavior/entertainment is okay... We have it right here in Page Country, Va. with cockfighting... It still goes on here inspite of the former sheriif being busted for allowing it to occur...

Yeah, Vick is who he is and people don't really change that much... They just get more so... I don't know what is in Michael Vick's heart but from watching his facial expressions and listening to his words during the interview I doubt very much if he really gets it...

But that is his problem... The fact that he can play football shouldn't be seen as the only thing on the planet he could do to make a living so I don't buy the argument that he should be allowed to "make a living"... There are millions of other folks who get up at 5 ion the orning, catch a bus and do what they have to do for very little money... He should have had to do a little of that, too, before being considered for the big money... Had he been a backup linebacker, the NFL would treat this very different...

I am disgusted by Vick and I am disgusted by a culture that values a guy who can throw a friggin' ball over it's moral fabric...

The End

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 07:57 PM

I don't follow any professional team, football or what have you. I had never heard of Vick before this came up.

This thread doesn't seem to be serving any purpose. The punishment, rather than the problem, seems to be what interests folks here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 06:39 PM

Of course each state does. A training center for fight dogs was broken up near here last year and dogfighting made a felony in Idaho as a result.

We're having a "vicious dog" debate here right now. I hope that it's not settled by breed, because ANY dog can be made vicious just as any human can.

Were I a judge and someone convicted of training dogs for dogfighting were brought before me I would not hesitate to impose the maximum sentence allowed by law. It is not the animals who are guilty, but the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 06:37 PM

Q: By citing all that information, you've proven my point that money talks to dogfighters far more loudly than a few speeches of questionable sincerity mouthed by a pro football star who's making millions after being given a golden ticket by the NFL and the courts.

I don't want to "lynch" Vick and I object to your putting that label on me, especially as we are talking about an African-American here. (Besides, let's not forget that Vick was the one who hung a living being from a tree and tortured it as it died.) I'm not a "boss" of anything. I am simply a person living in the Philadelphia area and finding myself disgusted at the thought of wearing any of my several Eagles shirts and hats ever again. I'm disgusted that I won't be able to avoid hearing Vick's name in sports reports on the local news for the foreseeable future. I'm disgusted that I will hear people around me talking about him and cheering for him. I'm disgusted that the Eagles made this deal. I'm disgusted that they gave him Ron Jaworski's number 7 to wear. I'm disgusted that Vick is here, where I live.

You like him so much? You move here and be his fan, and tell people around here that they must understand how someone who made a dishonest living in an illegal betting scheme on the backs of bleeding, dying dogs must be allowed to earn an honest living now. See how far you get doing that here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 05:24 PM

SharonA will be boss of the lynch mob. Fine!

Dog fighting was not outlawed in all states until 1976. The Federal Law with the penalties assessed Vick came in in 2007. In Wyoming, it is only a misdemeanor.
As to numbers and communities involved, the statement is from Wayne Pacelle, HSUS, and is not mine, but on visits to many states in the southern tier, southern Illinois and Hawai'i, the fights seem to be common knowledge.
Texas, Arizona and New Mexico can do little because the fights and betting often take place across the border in Mexico where they are legal.

The Humane Society has estimated "more than 40,000 people across the country buy and sell fighting dogs and are involved in dogfighting activities" (from Wikipedia article).

Wikipedia- "Despite legality issues, dogs are still commonly used for fighting purposes all across the continent. The American Pit Bull (American Staffordshire, AKC) is the most popular, but forign breeds such as Dogo Argentino...and Preso Canario are gaining popularity....In Miami-Dade County, Florida, where the APBT is banned, the Dogo Argentino has become the main fighting dog of choice, being used at both organized and street level dog fighting.
In 2005 in Oklahoma, 200 dogs were seized in one raid.

Rhonda Evans, University of Louisiana, says "owners of high-dollar fighting dogs spanned all walks of life and social classes, with a common link of a "machismo mentality."
Jay-Z and some other rappers glorify dog-fighting.

Bait dogs (stolen pets) are used in training (Pima Co. AZ, bait dogs had snouts wrapped to prevent them from injuring fighting dogs).
"Patricia Wagner, head of the National Illegal Animal Fighting Task Force for the Humane Society of the U. S., said "I think every state has a problem with it, whether they know it or not."


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 04:08 PM

Tens of thousands of people, divided by hundreds of communities, equals at least one hundred people per community. Hmmmm...??? I too wonder where those figures came from... and how Pacelle defines "community". Is Philadelphia considered one community? Is each neighborhood within the city one community? Or is each dogfighting ring one community? Sounds vague to me.

Anyway, "community support" for HSUS's position is great but it will be a long time in coming, no matter what Vick does. A more immediate, more forceful means of impressing the "community" would be to demonstrate to them that crime doesn't pay in the long term as well as in the prison term. One way of doing that is to boycott and protest to Vick's advertisers, Eagles advertisers and NFL advertisers, and urge them to withdraw their financial support of his comeback. A list of sponsors of the Eagles is at www.sackvick.net


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 02:55 PM

While I think that one person involved in dogfighting is too many, I would like to know where Pacelle got his figures.

In fact, tens of thousands of us would like to know.

Cite your sources or I'll assume you made them up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 02:51 PM

Wayne Pacelle blog, "A Humane Nation," president of the Humane Society of the United States, on the Humane Society of the United States website:
Excerpts:

"With tens of thousands of people involved in dogfighting, in hundreds of communities, it is impossible for us and law enforcement to arrest or scare off all of the perpretators. We have to prevent them from getting involved in the first place, and build community support for our position. That's why we have added our community-based programs to our portfolio of anti-dogfighting activities.

"I personally am thrilled whenever a dogfighter turns around, just like I am when a trophy hunter lays down his weapon or a bullfighter puts down his cape to join our side. I have to think that many of the ex-dogfighters we work with may have some self-interested motivations in getting involved. But we give them a chance to demonstrate an actual, on-the-ground commitment to our (and other) programs and then we make our judgements. It's the same with Michael Vick."

.............."If Michael Vick doesn't fulfill his pledge to combat dogfighting, we'll be the first to call attention to that. But if he does come through, and he turns some kids around and helps animals, then I'll be the first to say that's a good thing."

Pacell, HSUS
(Scroll far down)

As stated by Wayne Pacell, Vick is just one of tens of thousands. Prosecutions just drive the problem further underground as people and communities involved close ranks.
Education, social pressure and example are the only cure.

The lynch mob mentality of some posters here serves no purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:53 PM

"Not only has he served his sentence..."

He did not serve the entire 23-month sentence -- a sentence which was determined by plea bargain (it would have been harsher if he had not changed his plea to guilty after his 3 partners changed their pleas to guilty and agreed to give evidence against him). It seems patently obvious that Vick was released after only 18 months of prison time so that he could play football this fall. The NFL should have done what the legal system (I won't call it the "justice" system) has not done: it should have said, "Not this year."

The NFL should have waited to see whether Vick would demonstrate true remorse for his actions by speaking out against dogfighting -- and changing his ways by showing up for such speaking engagements! -- and then they could have considered him for the 2010 season if he had proven that he would not be a distraction to a team and to its fans.

As things stand, he is not only a distraction but a lightning rod for emotions about the dogfighting issue and about Vick's presence on the Eagles team. There has been a clash between the team and the public ALREADY. HHere's an article about yesterday's team practice, where a different Eagles player tore the signs of protesters...


Protesters: Eagles Player Taunted Us

Philadelphia - The situation in Philadelphia between animal-rights protesters and the Eagles is getting uglier.

On Saturday [August 15], a small number of protesters stood outside the Philadelphia Eagles' training facility as players left practice.

One protester said a young Eagles' player openly mocked the group, a claim that an Eagles' rep quickly denied to Fox 29.

Most Eagles players left practice without speaking with protesters. It was the first practice in Philadelphia for convicted dog abuser Michael Vick.

But protesters say one Eagles player did speak with them and it wasn't a pleasant conversation.

They said the player tore down some of their signs.

"He started right in, calling us crazy, 'don't you guys have a job,' 'why are you guys out here," said one male protester.

"I said, 'Rookie, wrong way to start off here in Philadelphia," added the protester.

Eagles PR told Fox 29 they were "very positive" the man was not an Eagles' player, but protesters told Fox 29 they were "very positive" the man played for the Eagles.

The group also echoed complaints from the local SPCA that the Eagles and Vick have not reached out to local groups to explain how Vick will help prevent animal abuse in Philadelphia.

"Nobody has a plan, Is he going to give money to shelters or help fostering programs?" asked Patty Bentivegna, a protester.

Jennifer Utley, a local SPCA leader and the wife of Phillies star Chase Utley, told a local newspaper on Saturday that Vick and the Eagles still haven't reached out to her group.

"I think if you're planning on being conscious of a very sensitive issue it might be positive to (contact us)," Jen Utley told the Delaware County Times. "I don't work for the Eagles. I don't know what their (public relations) department does. I only know that reports said they called us. They didn't."

From FOX TV station in Philadelphia (Channel 29)



By the way, although The Humane Society supports Vick and thinks he will come through on his promises to speak at Society events, the SPCA protested outside the Eagles' press conference on Friday [August 14] when Vicks' signing was officially announced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 07:42 AM

He Hung a dog and beat it slowly till it died.

After 2 years at CLUB FED they say he paid his debt to society?

This guys a monster.

He's only sorry he got caught.

Dog fighting is concidered to be ok in the south as is cock fighting, BUT he tortured these creatures slowly!

If he were given to San Fran I would mail back all my niners jerseys flags helmets and tailgating gear. I sent Scott McCloughan(GM) a letter 4 months ago that stated the same.

Evil sadistic bastards can't change thier hearts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM

Q - did you read the item to which you linked with a cynical eye? The connection was at the instigation of Vick's lawyers. Plainly it was calculated with an eye to advantaging their client.

I see no indication of genuine remorse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM

For me its just one more case of, he's done his time, but get that ball back in his hand and all will be forgiven, especially by some of those Eagles fans who claim they don't want him. The league the other day suspended Donte Stallworth for his deeds off the field, citing conduct unbecoming to the NFL. Citizen Vick has done his time....NFL player Michael Vick will do what, other than court mandated parole conditions? Other than the stipulations placed on Vick for the beginning of the season, that's all he gets? Its pretty weak to me, no offense to anyone here. Its not that I don't agree that he served his sentence, its that I think the act was sufficient for the NFL to say, thanks but no thanks. The fact that the only thing he can claim to be good at is football has no bearing on me. How many other people who have served time have been met with rejection when trying to rejoin society. We're supposed to forget that just because the man can hit his reciever in the end zone? You break the law, you go to jail. Upon release from jail in many ways is where you start your life all over again, not an easy thing. It's a lot easier when you are a millionaire and a celebrity. Why should we give him an easy pass?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:37 PM

Not only has he served his sentence, but the Humane Society of the U. S. will partner with Vick in developing programs aimed at eliminating dog-fighting. What more is demanded of him?
Humane Society Pacelle

Holding an inquisition and forcing him to beg and flagellate himself as he wanders the streets seems to be what Bridge and his ilk demands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 03:34 PM

Quite the contrary, Q. No matter the prevalence of cruelty to animals (and in particular, dog-fighting, cock-fighting, badger-baiting, bull-baiting and bear-baiting) the activities are wrong and have no place in a civilised society. Nor do their proponents.

For some strange reason, sports stars are heroes and role models. Until Vick properly and convincingly demonstrates his understanding of his fault, and can be guaranteed to use any potential role model status to seek to exterminate these cruel "sport" he has no place in any public eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:49 PM

PoppaGator seems to be the only one who has said a few sensible words about Vick and dog-fighting (add cock-fighting, a similar activity).

These activities are prevalent from Florida to California and Hawai'i (and probably elsewhere), and are accepted if not supported by a group in our society.
Education, and social pressure, may eventually eliminate these activities, as they have been in western Europe and among most North Americans.
Demonizing this group does not help.

Dog-fighting was finally eliminated from some U. S. military posts in the 1930s; as a child my first pet was a pit bull that my parents obtained from the kennel at one of these posts.

Vick, now returned to society, must be allowed to earn a living, and return to the sport at which he is proficient and pays not only his way but that of a number of people associated with him and his team.
Some posting here would assign him (and all offenders?) to the gutter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:35 PM

Meanwhile lets continue to keep Pete Rose out of baseball. He actually, gasp, was found to be gambling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM

Love the photo of the happy dogs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:49 AM

Hey, Philly fans are sickos, too... They will prolly give the sociopath a standing ovation ...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:00 AM

I can't judge Vick except based on the 'evidence' gleaned from what passes for 'news'. It's mostly sensationalist crap. He did something horrible and he went to jail. Whether he's truly reformed, nobody here can say. Even if he doesn't believe dog-fighting is wrong, if he doesn't engage in it, it's enough.

As for the dogs, it's seems they're getting the same judgment Vick is getting here. If I recall correctly, some of them turned up on The Dog Whisperer. Some animals get selected to be put down because nobody knows how to train them or it's not believed to be possible to find conditions in which they can live safely. People are afraid of the dogs, and up close that often means it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I do think the Eagles have likely made a mistake, because I don't think football fans are going to get over it this fast. The stands at their games are going to be interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 07:39 AM

Did you say the Philadelphia Beagles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 07:20 AM

My problem with Vick is that I have no feeling from hearing him speak that he understands fully that he has a very messed up set of values... I mean, for him to say that he now understands that some folks really do care for their dogs is troubling... He ***should*** care about the lives of the dogs he hanged, tortured and killed...

I don't hear remorse except in that getting caught cost him some aggrivation... He is a sick man... We used to hear about how killers started out torturing and killing cats... Why is he any differnt???

He is a sociopath... Period...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:00 AM

Celebrity worship in this country has reached the point of pathetic. What the hell is wrong with people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:39 PM

I am a great doglover, but, Rap, that is a pretty alarming thing that you state (at 0957 EST) . A number of dogs that will never be safe to interact with the public are to return, or have returned, it appears, to private ownership. I would cry over them (and it's a long time since I cried for anything other than a dog) as they died, but IMHO they should have been given euthanasia.

Vick, on the other hand, should not be given anything so painless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:59 PM

I don't "follow" pro football. Vick is, to my mind, a slimy scumbag who should have had done to him and his companions what they did to the dogs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:57 PM

Excuse me, please.

Many were too badly injured or too vicious and had to be put down.

This is simply untrue. ONE had to be euthanized -- ONE. The others are alive and some have even been adopted, although most will never be social with anyone other than their owners. You can check out some of what I've said at Bad Rap.

I know what has happened to the "Vick dogs" -- a damned good friend of ours was named "special guardian" of the dogs by the Court, and she had them taken to a shelter in Utah and to Bad Rap.

Both PETA and the HSUS said they would ALL have to be put down, that they were too vicious to live....


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM

On the bright side, Brady looked okay last night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM

I wouldn't want him on my property or on my TV. He's scum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:26 PM

My apologies for all the typos... not havin a good day here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:23 PM

Well, fact is, you are correct, to a point. BUT, there is also the fact that he committed these heinous crimes against dogs. Humans have laws to protect them from such atrocities... fellow humans who will stand up for them...

I realize that the subjugation of humans by their fellow man is ghastly, but, when it is perpetrated against an anmimal that has no entrencehed rights and is essentailly defenseless in any way, it is ALMOST more sickening and unforgivable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:18 PM

" he has to have come to a realization that the enterprise in which he had been involved was seriously and objectively wrong."

I think what he has realized is that most people and the law consider that the enterprise in which he had been involved was seriously and objectively wrong."

He has shown no remorse.

As to his playing - as I said, I don't care.
And any parent who raises a child to view professional ball players as heroes needs an update. Drugs, prostitution, spousal abuse, even murder. Heroes???


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM

Various public figures have committed crimes against human beings without inspiring this level of vitriol. I can't hardly "defend" Mr. Vick, but I can't help but feel that the reaction is completely out of proportion.

ESPN this morning reported that reaction among Philadelphia Eagles fans is currently about 75%-25% negative. Of course, this is still less than 24 houts after the announcement. I'd be interested in seeing how opinion might swing after Vick pulls off a bit of on-field heriocs.

Dogfighting, not unlike cockfighting and bearbaiting, has been seen as acceptable "sport" in various human communities at different points in history. This kind of activity was quite popular in London 100 years ago and more, but of course not these days. People should understand that in some American communitities, urban and rural, white and black, but all sharing the critical characteristics of material and cultural poverty, this kind of actitity is seen as normal entertainment and a popular basis for gambling.

Michael Vick may be a millionaire today thanks to his athletic talents, but he still has "roots" ~ and friends ~ in the ghettoes in which he grew up. It was a group of such old friends who sought his help as an "investor" in their dogfighting ring. Excuseable? Of course not. Understandable? Certainly ~ but only to those willing to bring an open mind to the discussion.

The Humane Society of the United States is already very happy with Michael Vick's efforts in helping spread their message. They report that he is enabling them reach entire populations with which they would not otherwise be able to connect.

Much as some may enjoy demonizing him, Vick cannot possibly not be remoseful. Does his self-interest have something to do with this change of attitude? Of course! But after two years out of football, much of it sepnt in prison, he has to have come to a realization that the enterprise in which he had been involved was seriously and objectively wrong.

He knows that, no matter what he might achieve on the athletic field, he will be known for the rest of his life as a convicted dogfighter first and a football star second, and he seems prepared to spend the rest of his life addressing the issue. While there are many people who will never forgive him, he WILL be part of the public world for the foreseeable future; it should prove to be interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 01:48 PM

Well, yeah, but... second chance? I mean... I understand he was (almost) a man and did not need the coin and there WAS sommat wrong in his brain when he did what he did...

But, does he deserve a second chance? Is a dog entitled to his first bite?

Far as I am concerned... dog, maybe, him, no... fuck him. He was a principal party to death and suffering of the worst kind for sheer sickening "entertainment". He should be sent to the Rangers or the Seals or whoever and trained for the most dangerous military missions there are and dropped behind enemy lines becasue such a "fine" athlete might do a good job. With no canine backup.

What a misearable piece of shit... and I am not talking about Mikey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

Agreed, irishenglish, except that the fluff interview is coming this Sunday evening on the "60 Minutes" TV program and, judging from the previews, it's no tearjerker. In fact, Vick looks absolutely devoid of emotion when he says he should have stopped the dogfighting operation and that he didn't "step up".

Problem is, he not only didn't stop it but he participated in it gleefully, according to reports, laughing as he tortured the dogs.

Vick is certainly going through the motions of remorse, but so far he seems to be a really bad actor. Let's not forget that he didn't change his plea from "not guilty" to "guilty" in 2007 until all three of his dog-fighting-business partners changed their pleas and implicated him; until then he was lyin' and denyin'. I think he is still in denial about what he did and about how evil it was.

Maybe, just maybe, he'll finally get it when he has to look some kid in the face while signing autographs, and hear that kid ask him why he hurt all those dogs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:06 AM

Remember when the dog fighting stuff came out? How universally disgusted any reasonable thinking person reacted to the news? I remember lots of people in the sports talk radio world and ESPN (not that I listen or watch it much) reacting with equal disgust. I predicted however that when Vick was released, this was going to happen. Lots of calls from the same people who said "lifetime ban" for, he's done his time, let him play. Don't be surprised mid season, probably on Monday Night Football to see some fluff tearjerker interview with Vick proclaiming his mended ways. Its pretty much a given it will happen at some point. Its not that I don't believe in redemption, but I'm surprised that a team would actually pick him, and his baggage. We're used to drug offenses, dwi's and all that, but this was new. I actually had hoped that with his reinstatement would have come not a single offer from a team....that would have been refreshing. Just another day in the money driven sports industry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:14 AM

A lot of people find getting a job more difficult once they have a criminal record; footballers should be no different.

I can't stand any form of cruelty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:10 AM

The guy is a slime ball. But that has never prevented anyone from playing professional sports.
I did see pictures of the dogs. The younger ones were re-trained for adoption. Many were too badly injured or too vicious and had to be put down. Cruelty beyond belief. And why? He was raking in a fortune playing football.
Rapaire,
If it had been children he abused instead of dogs, would you still say "He served his time and should be allowed to play?"
I am not a football fan. Philly's decision won't cost them my support - they never had it in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:03 AM

Yeah, if he was a sex offender, he'd be hounded for the rest of his life. Get on with the hounding, I'd say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:28 AM

He "served" part of the sentence that was imposed by a judge as part of a plea agreement with this football star. Sometimes people refer to "serving time" in jail as "paying one's debt to society", but IMO the two concepts should not be confused.

Society does not get "paid" but, rather, cheated by this sort of legal wheeling-and-dealing. In reality, Vick will indeed owe a debt to society for the rest of his life, in the sense that he had misrepresented himself as a role model by putting his name on programs for children, and now must repay society by stepping up and being an exceptional role model for the rest of his life. Frankly, there is a large segment of society that doesn't think he's up to the task, and will be watching him VERY closely, ready to point out any slip-ups, for the rest of his life.

THAT is the price one pays to society for crimes such as the ones he has committed against helpless creatures. So, to answer your question, Rapaire: Yes, he should be punished and hounded for the rest of his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:58 AM

So he should be punished even after he's served his time?

What he did was reprehensible and evil, but should he continue to be punished and hounded for the rest of his life? (That was not an intentional pun.)


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Subject: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:37 AM

Anybody wanna buy some Philadelphia Eagles football merchandise cheap? Lots of fans claim they're going to get rid of their Eagles stuff, in disgust over the signing of disgraced quarterback Michael Vick to the team yesterday. He's got a one-year deal with an option for a second year.

This is the reprehensible piece of slime who was convicted in 2007 of conspiracy and running a dogfighting ring, and served 18 months out of a 23-month sentence in a federal prison. Details of the horrible things that he put those dogs through can easily be found on the internet, and are too painful to describe here.

Beyond that, he's shown himself to have a bad attitude: he repeatedly failed drug tests while out on bail awaiting trial for the dogfighting and was reincarcerated; he had sex with a woman without telling her he had genital herpes and he gave her the disease (her lawsuite was settled out of court); he has flipped the bird at fans; he was a no-show when he was scheduled to appear before Congress to lobby for after-school-program funding. Not exactly a good role model for kids.

In addition, he hasn't played since 2006, he'll be one of FOUR quarterbacks on the team, and he won't be allowed to play in a regular-season game until mid-October. Based on the team's experience with Terrell Owens in 2004-2005, it seems obvious that history is going to repeat itself and that controversy over this player's off-field behavior will overshadow any success he might achieve on-field.

Fan reaction in Philly today is overwhelmingly negative. One local TV station's informal survey shows that 69% of respondents don't like it and only 22% do. This doesn't bode well for the coming season!

Back to the merchandising angle: What Philadelphian in his right mind would risk wearing a Vick jersey while walking down the street? Such a fan would be asking for trouble. Mark my words, we will hear news stories about Vick fans being beaten up and even shot in Philly. By the same token, I'll bet we'll hear about protesters against Vick clashing with fans at the football field.


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