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BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread

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PoppaGator 26 Jun 09 - 02:35 PM
Stringsinger 26 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM
Rapparee 26 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM
ard mhacha 26 Jun 09 - 02:46 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM
DMcG 26 Jun 09 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,NYC 26 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM
Ebbie 26 Jun 09 - 03:03 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM
maple_leaf_boy 26 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM
Ebbie 26 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM
Nancy King 26 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM
meself 26 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM
Mrrzy 26 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM
The Sandman 26 Jun 09 - 03:57 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM
Charley Noble 26 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 09 - 04:12 PM
bankley 26 Jun 09 - 04:26 PM
Bill D 26 Jun 09 - 04:40 PM
Bill D 26 Jun 09 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Jun 09 - 05:01 PM
number 6 26 Jun 09 - 05:07 PM
kendall 26 Jun 09 - 05:15 PM
gnu 26 Jun 09 - 05:25 PM
Acorn4 26 Jun 09 - 05:29 PM
Bill D 26 Jun 09 - 05:31 PM
Azizi 26 Jun 09 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 26 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Jun 09 - 05:45 PM
gnu 26 Jun 09 - 05:55 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jun 09 - 06:05 PM
Andy Jackson 26 Jun 09 - 06:07 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jun 09 - 06:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Jun 09 - 06:16 PM
Don Firth 26 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM
michaelr 26 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM
Bill D 26 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM
Wyrd Sister 26 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM
kendall 26 Jun 09 - 07:24 PM
gnu 26 Jun 09 - 07:29 PM
jacqui.c 26 Jun 09 - 07:31 PM
topical tom 26 Jun 09 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,6 months younger than MJ 26 Jun 09 - 08:48 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jun 09 - 08:52 PM
heric 26 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM
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Subject: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:35 PM

I just want to serve notice, but do not wish to say so by opening the obituary thread, up there in the music section, which would move it back to the top of the page. I would prefer to see it drop off the bottom of the page as soon as possible.

The celebrity-obsession we have to endure by living in the contemporary world is bad enough. Now we see the death of a very talented and very weird person, someone we saw grow from a precocious child into a very disturbed and disturbing adult, eclipsing the death of another celebrity (Farrah) who we first saw as a kind of mindless sex symbol but who became a relatively serious actress and, eventually, an absolutely admirable adult person.

I have also learned (from my young facebook friends) that yet another, more "minor," celebrity also passed away yesterday: Sky Saxon of the The Seeds.

I truly wish the best to everyone, may we all eventually rest in peace...but enough is enough! I woke up this morning to a Michael Jackson "special edition" of the Today show, and don't expect the Jacko hysteria to let up all weekend. Humbug!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM

Poppa, the thing that I believe should be addressed is the issue of child abuse by both Jackson and his parents. His death should be a reminder of the cyclical nature of parental abuse and how it needs to be stopped.

LaToya has been dissed by the MJ cultists because she alluded to that problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM

I didn't know him, but I quite agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:46 PM

All of the news programmes in the UK and Ireland have headlined the death of This weirdo, the world HAS gone mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM

PoppaGator, I share your opinion, but Michael Jackson was a musician, and so the thread will stay in the music section.

I'm not sure why it's deemed unacceptable to post negative comments in the obituary thread of a celebrity. The taboo about "respect for the dead" seems to hold strong sway here, but I don't see much reason to have respect for Michael Jackson. Pity, perhaps - but not respect. If we were to say anything critical of him in his obituary thread, we'd be likely to have wooden stakes driven into our cold, wicked hearts.

Michael Jackson was a caricature. There was a real human being inside there somewhere, but nobody ever knew him. I'm not sure that even Michael knew that human being himself.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:51 PM

I have to agree about the celebrity thing. I get a small number of important 'news flash' text messages from the BBC to my mobile. Since only the important stuff is covered, there was nothing about the recent announcement of changes in approach to the swine fever flu in the UK, for example. But for some reason, MJ warranted two messages overnight.

(I was also suitably depressed some months ago when the BBC website showed that 'the most displayed pages at the moment from Africa' were about Jade Goody.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,NYC
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM

I didn't like his music,I thought him strange. I honestly think he up to no good inviting children to stay at his home. How can the world forget this side of him ? The media called him a great dancer ! all he did was jump in the air and kick, God help us if that is dancing. Good thread PoppaGator, I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM

Yeah - If ever the *truth* could be known, I'd prefer it over celebrity circus! I'm not happy that allegations of mollestation could be bought off so easily.
An adult does not seek for children, to sleep in their bed, without some ulterior purpose IMO.
If he wasn't so wealthy and iconic he would have been nailed long ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

Don't mention that name, Dave. I'm still stinging from the beating I took after my "disrespectful" comments about J.G.
I hope the mob doesn't start a torchlight parade against anyone who dares to criticize Michael Jackson.
-Joe- (but I did like the Thriller video)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:03 PM

Hey. To me it appears that this thread is already more tasteless than the other one.

And I say that as a person who realizes full well the irrelevance of the 'rich and famous' to her own life and wellbeing. I agree that we are being beat about the head with this phenom, but I also realize that it's for but a brief span. Change the channel, lay down that magazine, redirect the conversation.

I don't have or heed the taboo of speaking ill of the dead but I do think that for me who knows little factual of the matter I can cut him lots of slack.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM

Ebbie, you're missing the point that open discussion is frowned upon on Obit threads, thus the OP found it necessary to create a thread where open discussion was allowed.

Considering it taboo to even create such a thread in order to avoid offending participipants in the other obits is err like uber mind police stuff... IMO.

I think the OP did exactly the right thing here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM

I agree with PoppaGator on this one. I just made a respectful comment,
as I do when someone dies and I know who they are.

But, the reaction was a little ridiculous. People were blocking off
the streets to see Michael Jackson. They should be giving him some
space.

And, I don't see why we can't speak ill of him, though. Wasn't
the acquittal of the child molestation charges unjust, and the last
thing he'll be remembered for is the contract dispute? He was being
sued over breaching a contract wasn't he?
His last few years, he was revealed to be a criminal and got away with it.
At least it will come back to get him in the afterlife.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Sheesh. Reminds me of the time I overheard my religious father and a religious friend speak of an absent person's perfidy and my father's friend saying comfortably, "I just tell myself that when he dies, he will be punished." Even at 14 years of age I was shocked at the callousness.

OK- I'm out of here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Nancy King
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

I'm with you, PoppaGator.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Except Ebbie, for most of us who are non-religious, it really is just a moment of general discussion.
Not elevation or anything. Just general thoughts that arise as a consequence of discussion on some famous party's life and death, as indeed is IMO quite natural.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: meself
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM

At 14, I would have been shocked at the naivety. But I suppose that's just me ...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

Oh, I'm SO glad that I'm not the only one who didn't like his music! And whatever we thought of him, he WAS a phenom.

But if I were king the newspapers wouldn't be allowed to write about entertainment and call it news. That would be for a separate publication.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

Perhaps I'm in a minority in that I have never been able to listen to a jackson song all the way through, and can't stand that type of music(?) spectacle?).
Even the BBC News is running their comment on Jackson into the ground; I have stopped listening to news until the hysteria is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:57 PM

neither Micheal Jackson or his music , interest me,but innocent until proved guilty does,allegations against him are not proven,therefore he is innocent.that is aright every human being is entitled to.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM

The Los Angeles Times--which publishes about 20% few pages (they say, but I think even fewer) than previously--used five pages for MJ and two for FF in todays edition. I think six of those pages--maybe more--would better have been spent on California's budget (lack thereof), the US government taking over the economy, and or world problems from NoKo to Iran to Iraq to Israel/Palestine. Jeez, I wish my wife would agree to cancel that paper! Even the comics suck (except for Mutts and Zits), and they're unreadable unless one has perfect vision. Do not confuse Mutts and Zits with Mutt & Jeff.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Thanks for starting this thread.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS:bit thr I am boycotting the MJ oead
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:12 PM

I'm waiting to see if someone starts a thread called "I am boycotting the 'I am boycotting the MJ obit thread.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: bankley
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:26 PM

great publicity stunt but hard to follow, unless you're Heath Ledger.

Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer also died on June 25th, but in 1876.

MJ was much more entertaining than Yellow-hair..esp. if you're Lakota


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:40 PM

I just added a comment "up there" before I saw this thread.

Yes! That thread should be down here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:41 PM

"Michael Jackson was a musician..."

You're in charge, Joe.... I strongly disagree that his music was relevant to Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:01 PM

I think that it is good to keep positive vs. controversial comments separated. He was obviously a troubled man, but probably had a heart of gold and a case of seriously arrested development. One person at least twittered from the Iran revolution a comment about his passing. He was very important to a lot of people, and a tragic figure at the same time. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:07 PM

I'm also with ya on this Poppagator.

I was unaware of Sky Saxon passing away. Funny as we and an old friend/relative were listening to to the Seeds last nite.

I guess Sky was pushing it to hard for too long.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:15 PM

..Let's go to Michael Jackson's house the party never stops,
Be sure to bring your jammies, well, really, just the tops. (Tom Paxton)

What bugs me about this character is, I simply dont understand his popularity. I wouldn't go across the street to see him


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:25 PM

Much ado about nothing.

MJ was a musical talent and a musical genius and a dance genius.

These are beyond refute. His bank account is prime facia evidence.

Unfortuanately, for WHATEVER reason, he was a severly fucked up human being... again, beyond refute.

Whatever you do, boycott or cheer or feel sorry for him... don't laud it or impinge upon others. That only impinges upon you.

I would like to see this thread closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:29 PM

I must admit I never actually took much notice of him except when he made his attempts to fight Mother Nature - and there could only be one winner in that battle in the long run.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:31 PM

"MJ was a musical talent and a musical genius and a dance genius.

These are beyond refute."

Scholars differ....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:43 PM

As to why I believe that the discussion thread about Michael Jackson deserves to be in Mudcat's above the line music section-

Some people here may be interested in reading my transcription of several pages from Tom McGrath's essay "Integrating MTV". That essay is included in the online Google Books edition of William McKeen's book Rock and Roll Is Here To Stay. Those pages remind folks that in the early 1980s television was not nearly as integrated as it is now [and in many ways it's still not that integrated now]. But these pages provide some clues-for those who are open to considering them-of the phenomenal, revolutionary impact that MTV, largely fueled early on by Michael Jackson videos, has had on the presentation and marketing of contemporary music. By "contemporary music" I don't just mean "Pop" and "R&B". I mean most contemporary music. And this impact occurred in spite of the problematic personal issues that Michael Jackson had in his later years.

Without any further comments from me, here is that partial transcription of "Integrating MTV" by Tom McGrath [pages 458, 459, 461, 462]

"... Nevertheless all involved with Thriller knew that getting MTV to play Michael Jackson videos was anything but a sure thing. The reason was simple: in the channel's first eighteen months, as it became a cult hit among white suburban teens all over America, it had played only a handful of black artists. From Bob Pittman's and everyone else at MTV's point of view, it was simply a matter of format. Ever since the MTV flag was planted in the moon, during the summer of 1981 the channel had positioned itself as the rock and roll station. And because only a handful of black acts-Tina Turner, Prince, Joan Armatrading, the Bus Boys-played what most people called rock and roll anymore, only a few of their clips had been played on that network. For Pittman, programming head Les Garland, and the rest of them, the situation was no different than radio, where few rock stations played black artists.

But that argument didn't fly with everyone. MTV's original head of talent and artist relations, Carolyn Baker, who was black, had questioned why the definition of music had to be so narrow, as had a few others. What's more as MTV received more and more press attention, a growing number of journalists and music critics and black artists really began to slam the network for its segregated view of music. True, the critics said, album rock stations didn't play many black acts, either. But other radio formats did, and black music was widely available on the radio. MTV, on the other hand, was still the only music video channel on television, and therefore, according to critics, it had an obligation to expose black acts and to educate its viewers to what else was out there.

... one week after the song hit no 1 on Billboard's Hot 100. "Billie Jean" video debuted on MTV." "Beat it" arrived a couple of weeks later,and if they were impressed by "Billie Jean", they were absolutely floored by "Beat It". …Costing more than $150,000 and directed by Broadway choreographer Michael Peters, the video looked like an updated, inner city version of West Side Story. They even got members of real Lost Angeles gangs to appear in it. But what made it great was the dancing. Michael dressed, in a red jacket, snapped and stepped, and shrieked to the music, this time with a hundred talented extras moving along with him.

Never before had there been a video like this. Almost single handed, this shy former child star had taken the entire field of music video and lifted it up a notch artistically

After "Billie Jean" and "Beat It" everything changed. Everything. With MTV spreading like never before, and Michael demonstrating how mesmerizing these promo videos could be, music video were suddenly everywhere."

[my italics added for emphasis; the entire available pages make very interesting reading. Prior to this afternoon, I hadn't read about that book. Hat tip to http://www.stewartcopeland.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10412 for mentioning that essay in a post that he wrote about the irony of MTV playing Michael Jackson videos in memorial to that artist [when that channel had resisted showing hardly any Black music videos until Michael Jackson's videos showed them how hugely successful that could be for MTV].

Also, if people here really want to get a sense of a number of Black people's feelings about Michael Jackson and his music, here are two discussion threads I recommend:

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/26/open-thread-remembering-michael-jackson/#comments

and

http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2009/06/michael-jackson-remembrance-thread/#disqus_thread


Repeatedly, commenters to these threads-and others-note that Michael Jackson's music was a large part of the "soundtrack of their childhood" (or "their youth"). True, his music and his dancing wasn't in everyone's taste-which music and dancing are in everyone's taste?

However, for better or worse, it's unlikely that the music industry will return to a time when music was promoted without music videos. To a large measure, you can thank (or berate) Michael Jackson for this.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

Michael Jackson was COMPLETELY irrelevant to me - I despise pop music and any drivel about 'celebs' has me reaching for the 'off' switch.

I remember, years ago, a mate of mine telling me that he was dreading the day the Queen Mother died because of all the weeks of bullshit we would have to put up with afterwards. Well, that event came and went and, to be honest, I can't remember much about it (must have made good use of the 'off' switch).

My mate, sadly, passed away a couple of years ago (a much more relevant tragedy to my life)- at least he doesn't have to put up with this latest avalanche of witless nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:45 PM

My mother told me as long ago as I can remember "Son, if you have nothing good to say about a person, say nothing."

She lived by that for the whole of her 87 years of life, and never, in all that time, did I hear her say anything bad about anyone.

You always knew when she disapproved of someone though. When that person's name was mentioned, she would turn, look out of the window, and say something about the weather.

A direct question would elicit the response "No Comment".

I wish I could say I've followed that precept, and for the most part I've tried to, but I am not made of the same stuff she was.

I still admire her, and I miss her more than I could ever say, especially on those occasions when I know I SHOULD hold my tongue.

One thing I do remember, though! Death was NOT a requirement in order for her to avoid speaking ill of her fellow humans.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:55 PM

Bill D... you should have read my whole post. Scholars don't matter a fuck. Royalties do. If you got a problem with that, I would suggest it's a problem with his being "rather strange" and not with his talent. Otherwise, your statement is illogical.

And so, rather than try to bring some sense of decorum and compassion to this thread, I shall follow Ebbie and leave... yet again... another thread... that just ain't goin anywhere except to nastiness and shit.

gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:05 PM

I heard a Jackson 5 track on the radio this morning - MJ sang way out of tune!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:07 PM

I taught him everything I know


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:08 PM

Well, the obituary thread was started by somebody who thought that Michael Jackson should be honored as a musician, and I think I'll leave that thread there in the music section to respect the thread originator.

The originator of this thread wanted to give a home to the comments of those of us who wish to be a little more free in our expression of disdain for the tabloid side of Michael Jackson. And I think we need to respect the originator of this thread, too.

I was going to say something about having one's cake and eating it, but that reminds me of the Weird Al parody, which is also inappropriately sacrilegious at this sad time....

These obituary threads on tabloid stars make me really nervous. I lost my left testicle on the Jade Goody controversy, and I regret that I have but one more to give....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:16 PM

You can dismiss Michael Jackson; you can talk about the allegations against him. You can't deny that people around the world loved his music, and he brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

Not posting slimy remarks on an obituary thread is just common sense. When bereaved fans (of whomever has just died) go looking for information, they want to read an obituary with the basic biographical information, cause of death, and positive thoughts. Mudcat isn't the best or in any way an up-to-date place to read about Jackson, but if someone is Googling "Michael Jackson obituary" they could land there.

Save the negative stuff for another thread. Like this one.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM

I'm with PoppaGator on this one. And with Frank. And with Kendall.

Michael Jackson was much more to be pitied than admired. He was exploited from early on, and what that essentially boiled down to was child abuse. He was little, he was cute, and he did have a bundle of energy and talent, which, frankly, I don't think was ever fully realized. He was crammed into a mold performing with the Jackson Five, and not really allowed to develop his own talent in his own way. When it came right down to it, the Jackson Five would have been just one more of many such groups had it not been for the cute, energetic kid. They needed him! And they used him.

Did he really want to be there? What choice did he have?

I'm not given, God knows, to seeking out television stories about Michael Jackson, but I do recall seeing a feature on him on some news program. It might have been "60 Minutes" while I was waiting to hear Andy Rooney grump about something, but I don't recall for sure. Anyway, someone (Leslie Stahl?) interviewed him (I didn't learn anything that I cared to retain), and then followed him when he went to an art gallery to buy a bunch of new stuff for his "Neverland Ranch" ("Neverland" strikes me as significant in itself:   the land where children never grow up). It was eye-popping. He wandered through the gallery with someone following him and taking notes. As he walked through, he'd point at something (without really looking at it) and say, "I'll take that one. And I'll take that one and that one. And that one over there. . . ."

And, of course, he had the money to do it with!

It was like someone going to a bookstore and buying thirty feet of books, not carrying anything about content, just to fill their shelves at home. All for show.

But I got to thinking about this when the child abuse allegations started. I heard some newscaster or commentator venture the opinion that, inappropriate as Jackson's behavior was, laying around in a bed with young kids, he probably wasn't actually sexually abusing them (he was charged, but acquitted). He just wanted to surround himself with children. Other children.

Because he never had a childhood himself. It was stolen from him at an early age.

I was reminded of the Orson Welles' 1941 epic movie, "Citizen Kane." One of the key scenes in the movie shows Charles Kane's future being planned. He is to be sent away from his beloved mother to protect him from his abusive father, to live with a banker friend of the family who will see to his education. Private schools, preparation for material success in the world, power and greatness. While this discussion is going on, you see the boy, Charles Kane, out in the yard, playing happily in the snow with his sled. At the end of the scene, the grown-ups come out, interrupt his play, take his sled away from him, and drag him off to fulfill the destiny they have planned for him.

Just as he dies (at the beginning of the movie—the story is told in flashbacks) Kane drops a snow globe (one of those glass balls with a winter scene inside) and says the cryptic word:   "Rosebud." That question underlies the entire movie. What, or who, is "Rosebud?" And what is its significance? Many people who have seen the movie missed it, apparently because they blinked at the wrong time or just didn't notice. But after all of the millions of dollars worth of art treasures are cleaned out of Kane's mansion, "Xanadu," and while the workmen are burning all the old junk that Kane also acquired, and wondering why he had gone to such great effort to accumulate all this useless junk (SPOILER ALERT), the camera moves in on a burning sled, as the flames blister and obliterate the name on the sled; the sled the boy Kane had been playing with in the yard when the grown-ups came and took him away:   Rosebud.

Kane may have been removed from his abusive father. But he had also been robbed of his childhood, to be groomed to become the Great Man he became. All of that material acquisition was an attempt to buy back his childhood.

I think Michael Jackson's problems might very well have stemmed from something quite similar.

Random thoughts while waiting for the tea water to boil.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM

gnu, you are the one being illogical. Since when was an entertainer's income an indication of his talent?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

Thank you, Don...that saves me a lot of typing.

Gnu...I read it. I disagree that his bank account proves his genius. It proves the line attributed to everyone from Henry Ford to Barnum..."No one ever lost money underestimating the taste of the (American) people."

You notice I make NO comment on whether MJ was guilty of anything, or whether his weird childhood was relevant. I restricted my focus to the ***IMPORTANCE*** of him occupying all the news media and being treated like a major **FOLK** figure in this forum.

I stand by my assessment....and it is mildly comforting to see some whose opinion I respect a lot agreeing with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

Copy of my post from the Wimbledon thread:

Does anyone else lament the fact that the tournament seems to have become infested with Jackson hysteria? When champions are asked to comment on his death before the tennis I fear relevant issues have become confused. Surely there are enough other outlets for discussion without ALL the media being taken over by this event?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:24 PM

All I'm saying is, I dont understand his popularity.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:29 PM

Fine... have fun with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:31 PM

Virtually the whole half hour of the evening news was devoted to Jackson again tonight. Although I pity the man I don't quite see why he commands this much attention. It seems that the cult of celebrity has really gone mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: topical tom
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 08:43 PM

I did not like his music. Didn't he settle a child molestation charge out of court? That just doesn't smack of innocence to me. I disliked his voice. He was a human being with many major mental and physical problems ,in my opinion. I see him as a man to be pitied but virtually deified? Never. Having said all this, millions apparently loved him and his music. I simply am not one of them. I guess we all march to a different drummer. This thread needed to be started.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,6 months younger than MJ
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 08:48 PM

as much as we caring, sharing, lefty liberals deplore human nastyness
in all its vicious horrid unpleasant horribleness and all other mean bad stuff..

must say http://www.sickipedia.org/get.php?today

was extra sharp and swift in its notorious bad taste bleak disgusting humour
presentaion of the worst in human nature's blah blah..,
within hours
of this dramatic breaking news..

for example, and clearly only notified here as an interesting cultural product
of creative transgressive folk jokery in the face of mass official media hysteria..

"Farrah Fawcett arrives at the pearly gates and Saint Peter Grants her one wish,
so she thinks for a minute and says "I wish all the children in the world to be safe".

3 hours later Micheal Jackson dies from heart attack!"


plenty more there to keep accademic knickers in agonising twists
until the next sad sorry celeb overdoses or ties a knot too tight in a cheap hotel closet.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 08:52 PM

PoppaGator - Yeah, okay. Whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM

Peculiarly, I agree with just about everything everyone said, pro and con. What an enigma. I don't like his music or his videos, but I want to like him. I don't want to think he diddled any little boy's dingleberries but . . . well, it doesn't look good.

I am particularly struck by this: "There was a real human being inside there somewhere, but nobody ever knew him. I'm not sure that even Michael knew that human being himself."

Anything to add? Yeah, two things: I met one of his brothers a few times and the guy is 100% normal and nice. The other is that just last week I stumbled across this video on youtube. At 6:40-6:60 on the clip, you can see Michael at age ten in the audience. One thing is clear: That's not a kid who has has had music beat into him. Michael


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