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Folk Against Fascism

Peace 22 Jul 09 - 06:03 PM
Peace 22 Jul 09 - 05:52 PM
Richard Bridge 22 Jul 09 - 05:29 PM
Peace 22 Jul 09 - 05:28 PM
Royston 22 Jul 09 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Member in a shopping centre internet cafe. 22 Jul 09 - 05:20 PM
Peace 22 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM
Royston 22 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM
Emma B 22 Jul 09 - 04:26 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 22 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM
Richard Bridge 22 Jul 09 - 04:12 PM
Royston 22 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM
jeddy 22 Jul 09 - 02:31 PM
Royston 22 Jul 09 - 02:10 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 09 - 01:45 PM
fairplay 22 Jul 09 - 01:11 PM
Royston 22 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM
Big Mick 22 Jul 09 - 11:51 AM
Fred McCormick 22 Jul 09 - 10:47 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 22 Jul 09 - 08:54 AM
TheSnail 22 Jul 09 - 08:46 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 22 Jul 09 - 08:07 AM
Fred McCormick 22 Jul 09 - 07:26 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 22 Jul 09 - 07:03 AM
Little Hawk 22 Jul 09 - 02:23 AM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,George Davis 21 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Jul 09 - 08:30 PM
Joe Offer 21 Jul 09 - 08:01 PM
jeddy 21 Jul 09 - 07:33 PM
Royston 21 Jul 09 - 07:12 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM
Emma B 21 Jul 09 - 06:34 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 06:28 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:20 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 06:14 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 05:58 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM
Royston 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM
Emma B 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 05:23 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM
jeddy 21 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:03 PM

And if the "powers that be" intend to castigate me for THAT ost, maybe y'all should recall that even from i'net cafes, one may post as guest and append one's normal user name.
    I see that another BNP thread has been established. Since we generally allow only once active thread on any given subject at a time, I'm going to close this one. Please continue the discussion on the new thread (click)
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:52 PM

As for the "member in an internet cafe". What a dink. A BNP personage who wants to remain nameless. Right. Sounds like someone from a main-stream political party to me.

A while back some neo-Nazis marched in Calgary. Average people went to LAUGH at them. The poor neo-Nazi/Aryan Nations mix were very happy to have the protection of the police. I expect they will too in the UK. People who are not a bit skewed in the head do not like you. Their parents--and in some cases themselves-- fought against your ilk years back. They will fight against you now. Chicken-shits like you can't gain respect because as a kid you hid behind mommy's skirt. Today, you hide behind the anonymity of the internet.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:29 PM

Dear aptly named member:   please do not confuse Royston, here, with the BNP clone Rifleman Royston on FaF (or possibly now ex Rifleman Royston).


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:28 PM

THAT is great, Royston. People need to know they're not alone. Good for you, on you and good gracious me.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:26 PM

The "Guest's" world may begin and end with its keyboard and Mudcat / Bookface intrigue. The mobilisation I'm talking about is that of the entire UK anti-fascist movement. 52 coaches booked already. 2,600 people; and that's just the ones that aren't already in the area or making their own way there.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Member in a shopping centre internet cafe.
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:20 PM

"You're right Jeddy. That's the reason for the mobilisation against the BNP"

Now Rifleman Royston is speaking as if his unit is heading out to Iraq for a four month tour of duty !

People people please stop and listen to yourselves. You are at most ten strong, few under 50, not exactly in the best of health and you talk about "fighting the enemy" lol. I would advise sticking to calling the BNP naughty names from the safety of your keypad.Better still, half of you aren't even in the UK !

By all means express your views, but come on, "mobilisation against the BNP". I am torn between Bilko or the Goon show to describe this twist in the thread.

Has anyone noticed this thread coming up on radar on one of these devilish sites the nasty BNP visit ?? I would find it unlikely. I suggest we all go back to watching Dad's Army reruns on BBC2 and disband Keith Michelle's "Captain Beaky and His band."

Right, anyone been to any decent folk sessions recently in the south east?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM

Royston, three years back I was posting links to BNP sites; links to some of their members who had also posted to various hate sites. This is not new to me. I have
stopped saying "Fuck the BNP". So y'all can stop with the lectures. No offense to you.

Three years back you could have counted on the fingers of a hand the number of people who posted against the BNP--under their own names. Even some posters who are on this thread were rightfully afraid at the time.

So, even by innuendo I am fed up with the holier than thou stuff I've been reading. Y'all go reason with them. I won't. I was off this thread until a buddy posted. I came back to read it. Now I'm ON the damned thread again. Leave me out of it, please. And for the ex-friend who has a few things to say, do it via message.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM

There's nothing *wrong* with keep saying "Fuck the BNP". We all agree with that. It's a nice thing to say, feels like a release. Like having a wank I suppose, or self-harm (I have no experience of the latter, mind you).

I have not and will never tell anyone not to say that. I don't see that Mick or Joe have tried to prevent or delete anyone's emissions either. Great.

But it isn't really helpful. Simple as. It's like having a friend with tourettes. Amusing for a while, charming even. But ultimately tedious and destructive, however patient one is willing to be.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 04:26 PM

I think I have posted many times Richard to expose BNP lies and tactics and to counteract the racism in any 'real' or purely mischievous 'trollish' posts.

I'm in total agreement with Big Mick when he points out
"It is your job to continue to point out the hidden agenda, the racist positions, and the false premises"

We SHOULD monitor the BNP,
we SHOULD seek to apply tourniquets to restrain the spread of BNP poison.

But what is the point of simply just resorting to the same sort of mindless, repetitive verbal abuse as the people whose policies we so despise?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM

F*ck the BNP.

Bruce is right...and he should know, he's been writing songs against prats like these, for decades, inspiring the likes of Richie Havens along the way.

Just three simple words, summing up everything people should feel about the BNP.

Good post, Richard.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 04:12 PM

I am very bothered that "ideals" of free speech suggest that we should restrain abuse of the BNP, that we should not monitor the BNP, that we should not seek to apply tourniquets to restrain the spread of BNP poison.

On the one hand the BNP advocate gbh and murder.

On the other "idealists" suggest that we should not say "Fuck the BNP".

Which is the darker shade of grey?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM

You're right Jeddy. That's the reason for the mobilisation agains the BNP.

I am a libertarian. If somebody holds fascist opinions and racist baggage then they are free to their thoughts and they are free to speak them. But I and others will make damn sure that there is at least an equal and opposite reaction to them. That is democracy.

The true policies of the BNP (the views of its glory-arse leader) are poisonous and anti-democratic. His views do not belong in any mainstream political dialogue. His is the ideology of the gutter and the fist and the boot. He lies about his true aims and so the truth must be made to be heard.

If it forces the likes of fairplay to make a choice and go to the BNP then fine, he doesn't matter. Most rational people, when they know what the BNP is really about, wouldn't touch it with someone else's bargepole. I am only bothered about *those* people.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:31 PM

royston,
it would seem that their divide and rule is rather effective. i think if you read through this thread it is plain to see it in action, don't you think?
we have been at each others throats rather alot. if we as educated (and for myself i use the term very loosely) people are falling for it, there is no hope for those who have no idea what they are truely up to.

we have to stick together.

take care all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:10 PM

fairplay, sorry old chap. You may have a point. Is there another fascist political party in the UK? One that I missed? Because if there is then I will organise against that also.

The BNP is not a normal political party. It aims to use and subvert the democratic process in order to secure power; after which it will enact its inhumane, anti-democratic policies.

Nazi Nick has been caught on camera (or has blatantly bragged to the watching media) that BNP policy is geared at sowing discontent and disaffection amongst poor white folk to whip up racial discord and hatred. His policy is - according to him - to stop talking about the true end-game of BNP policy, until they have secured power or sufficient momentum in public opinion, so that their true agenda is either more "acceptable" or can be implemented forcibly.

PROOF HERE - Nazi Nick addressing a group of American white-supremacists in New Orleans arranged by the former KKK leader David Duke.

Play the video, listen to Nazi Nick's own words.

"BNP is not about selling out its ideas, which are your ideas too [the KKK]...but we will use the saleable words: 'freedom', 'identity', 'security', 'democracy'...nobody can criticise them, nobody can attack you for those, they are saleable. Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle we've got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcast media...people may change their mind and say 'every last one of them must go'...but if you hold that out as your aim to start with you'll get absolutely nowhere. So instead of talking about racial purity we talk about 'racial identity'"

What say you to that, fairplay?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 01:45 PM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger - PM
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM

Nazisim came out of the ashes of economic deprivation in Germany in the 20's.
There is always a chance that a system of reaction will develop when times are hard.
People who are suffering want to blame someone so they form a political party.
Jews were scapegoats because it was convenient to do this.

The "man under the curtain" is corporate fascism which is slowly taking over certain
parts of the world. As long as corporate elites control the economies of the world,
they will bolster the rise of groups such as the BNP.

It's important to focus attention on the real culprits, the CEO's and the politicians who are greedy, the policies in governments which are controlled by the military industrial complex and the suppression of unions by ruthless business interests.


Here's where FAF should be concentrating their efforts.
Then maybe the KKK and the BNP will be seen for what they really are[end of quote]
this is a sensible post.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: fairplay
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 01:11 PM

Behind the studied outrage and special pleading, this thread is just a ramp to attack one particular party. What next? Folk Against Tory Coffee Mornings?

Judging from Mudcat, there seems to be more evidence of infiltration and manipulation of folk by the looney left than there is by the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM

Fred McC;

In other words, where the BNP seek to use traditional song to isolate the British from the rest of the world's peoples, for me it was a stepping stone towards understanding the rest of the world's peoples, and to empathising with them.

Quoted for the truth, Fred. I've always banged on about folk music being the heritage of the working folk and how it tells us, if it tells us anything, that we're all in this mess together and we hardly need the BNP divide and rule tactics. In fact if the BNP didn't exist then I suspect "the establishment" would need to invent it...or have they done so?

You put it better than I did, because, yes, folk music connects us to a time of struggle and adventure/adversity that none of us face any more in the western-world, but which others less "fortunate" than us still do.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 11:51 AM

Seems to me that you are mad at the wrong person, Bruce, my friend (sincere comment). While I may not agree with trying to reason with folks that have an agenda that includes propagandizing, proselytizing and recruitment, and veiled racism, none the less they are entitled in a public forum to mouth their views, even if they are objectionable. That is freedom of speech, which Yanks hold near and dear. Remembering that this is a public forum, one must keep in mind who has what obligation. It is not the obligation of the forum owner to censor objectionable opinion. That is the job of the listening public. It is your job to continue to point out the hidden agenda, the racist positions, and the false premises. This forum operates with very few rules, and that is by intent. It is a wonderful record of social interaction, debate, argument among peoples from entirely different social backgrounds and cultures. Our rules are simply designed to keep discussion of issues, and music, flowing. We only ask that folks limit their attacks to organizationional agendas, or individuals ideas, and we will not allow personal attacks. Joe and I, nor even Max for that matter, have any obligation to censor ideas. But participants here do have an obligation. That is to debate, or choose not to, and do so in a way that is in compliance with our rules, few that they may be.

As to Richard Bridge's comment of 9:34 AM, I would add that Joe and I are always available for private discussion through the use of PM's. But a forum of this type cannot be moderated by public consensus. You can reach me at mick@mudcat.org

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 10:47 AM

Snail. "There is no point in effing and blinding at the BNP nor in trying to engage them in debate"

This isn't a theory I've had the opportunity to test and I hope I'll know more after September. That is when Matthew Goodwin's book on the BNP is due to be published.

However, my impression is that the BNP consists of a hard core of nasties, possibly only several hundred in number, who are surrounded by a much larger inactive mass of floating card carriers; people who've joined and pay their subs as a gesture of solidarity, but don't actually do anything. If such a body does exist it is likely to be comprised of people who are thick, politically naive, racist, chauvinist and pissed off with the major parties.

In other words, they've joined the BNP because they don't realise the true nature of the beast. Such people wouldn't make the most sparkling of company. But a bit of careful explaining to some of them might work wonders.

"The one I encountered seemed genuinely interested in traditional song; he just saw it as part of his repulsive views."

There is a long history of people exploiting and faking folklore for racist and nationalistic reasons. I don't want to get too heavily involved in a debate, here at any rate. However, I would strongly recommend anyone wanting to know more to take a look at Locating Irish Folklore by Diarmuid Ó Giolláin.

Also, E.J. Hobsbawm and Terence Ranger, eds. The Invention of Tradition.

Plus Georgina Boyes' excellent study, the Imagined Village.

Personally I am extremely interested in British traditional song, and have been for most of my life. Amongst other things, discovering a wealth of traditional song and music right here on my doorstep was the engine which eventually led me to explore the musical traditions of just about every other nation on earth. In other words, where the BNP seek to use traditional song to isolate the British from the rest of the world's peoples, for me it was a stepping stone towards understanding the rest of the world's peoples, and to empathising with them.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:54 AM

Snail: "he just saw it as part of his repulsive views."

Thanks to Snail & Fred Mc. for that key clarification there.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:46 AM

There is no point in effing and blinding at the BNP nor in trying toe engage them in debate. Neither is going to change them in any way and they are delighted with the attention.

There are two groups of people we DO need to address, those who might be deceived by the BNP soft image that they are trying to promote, especially those within folk music, and the wider public who might fall into the trap of believing that folk music is associated with extreme right wing views. For instance, we could do without this sort of thing.

The first group are best served by exposing the truth about the BNP their racist criminal behaviour and there is plenty of that in the media and online.

To win over the second group, we need to stand up for traditional music and promote a positive image rather than feeling slightly embarrassed about it as earlier posters suggested. We also need to be vigilant about keeping the B^$!^£ds (Sorry, Joe) out of our traditions. As Fred McCormick said earlier "In other words, if you are a musician, dancer, organiser, or in any way connected with folk activities, and someone approaches you with an offer you can't refuse, check the small print very carefully."

It may not be true that their involvement is totally cynical. The one I encountered seemed genuinely interested in traditional song; he just saw it as part of his repulsive views.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:07 AM

"And that goes for me too, after you're extremely rude PM to me over Tam and Crow Sister's threads."

Ooops.. Did you get a slapped wrist then Lizzie?
Despite the toe curling factor, I thought it quite sweet really! In fact I think it'd be quite nice to see *more* such threads for some of Mudcat's (very many) hobbyist musicians.

I mean, us mere hobbyists don't tend to indulge in the usual kinds of self-promotion, that some of the pro's do on here... As such, I think I might just trace that thread you started for me, and if I ever get around to putting up anything online again, I'll link it there! So! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:26 AM

Crow Sister. Actually, this is one BNP policy about which there is nothing cynical. Indeed, the Aryanisation of British culture is right at the heart of their sick and tormented ideology.

These people are gene freaks. They believe in all seriousness that everything the British create, whether it be language, music or whatever, is a product of British genetic makeup. In their eyes all 'non-aryan' forms of music; jazz, blues, rock, Arabic maqams, West African praise songs or whatever, are the products of inferior races. Therefore, they figure that if they clear the country of said races and said music, they will be able to unite the pure Aryan British people around the pure Aryan strains of British folk music.

That is why we need to take BNP threats to our music with the utmost seriousness. Trainloads of Muslims being shipped off to the strains of Seeds of Love? It can't happen if we don't let it happen.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:03 AM

"such as that people in a very destructive political cause are quite often people who also genuinely like a number of good things that you too may like"

LH this kind of misreading of the situation, appears almost willful on your part, and is quite frustrating. Either that or you simply haven't been reading the posts which have elaborated the facts of the situation.

The BNP membership don't just *happen* to like folk music en masse. It's not a mere "interesting coincidence" that the BNP have latched onto our Traditional Music, *it's a fully cynical politically agendered STRATEGY to annex traditional folk music for nationalistic and fascist purposes.*

Exactly as the Nazi's did during WWII.

I read a comment from one lady who said that Germans now only sing their folk songs, in quiet little groups - not in public. And that such rare small gatherings, are deeply emotional. The people are ashamed of the purposes to which their traditional songs were prostituted.

The FaF organisers don't want the same thing to happen to English folk song and music, and are determined to resist it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:23 AM

Stay calm, folks. I am not defending the BNP. There is much you have to be worried about, I'm sure, but not that, okay? If I talk about some other aspects of the situation that I find interesting (such as that people in a very destructive political cause are quite often people who also genuinely like a number of good things that you too may like) I am simply saying it because I find that interesting...NOT because I am defending the BNP. Not in any way am I defending the BNP. I do not endorse their political views. I do not sympathize with their political views. I do not empathize with their political views. I hope they do not succeed in their political objectives.

I don't expect to improve the world by going into a frenzy of hatred here over them...or anyone else either.

As Joe Offer says: Keep it rational. Keep it reasonable. If all you are here for is to indulge yourself in expressing your outrage and your violent emotion, you will only succeed in reducing the discussion to a level of deep hostility...and driving away any people who don't agree with you 100% about absolutely everything...and occupying a lot of bandwidth just for the purpose of venting. And then what?

Anyway, I'm quite happy to leave you to it. I have no big stake in proving anything to anyone here. I just talk about a subject if I find it interesting. If all people want to do here is fight and express outrage...well, like I said, I'm happy to leave you to it. Enjoy the excitement and drama, I guess...

See you on some other thread, no doubt.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:01 PM

"the more people DON'T talk about them, the more nothing will get done."

Contact facebook by all means - but reacting and responding to the messages is giving the provocateur exactly the reaction they're after.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,George Davis
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM

Joe, the discussion is anything but rational. Ranting and f**king is about the height of it. The thread was started with good intentions, gradually it went downhill with bad language, loss of temper and repeated posts.

I am not surprised members or supporters of the British National Party aren't challenging comments, what is there to challenge ?

If anyone above thinks their comments will change the mind of the electorate, the are deluded.
It is one thing expressing ones opposition to the politics of another, it's another to call them f**kers and thugs and think that wins the arguement !

Freedom of speech and choice to vote for whoever you chose still exists in Britain today. Reading the comments above reminds me of the child who takes his ball and runs home crying because he wasn't allowed to be team captain. The comments are childish and frankly meaningless. Some people would do better putting their energy into something worthwhile.

I would like to see this thread closed and tempers cooled for a day or two.

Politics for politicians, Music for musicians.

On a sadder note, I just learned tonight Hurricane Smith died last year. A great guy, served in World War Two, worked with the Beatles and wrote and performed several hit recordings.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:30 PM

Tell you what, Joe....why don't you use some common sense and ban ALL 'Guests' from Mudcat, once and for all, particularly the facist ones, as Bruce suggested? You know that you can do that...

And as Bruce has said earlier on, you ban the likes of him, and me, and others, from this site, yet you let these bastards post.......?????????????

Yes, this thread is being watched by someone who is on Mudcat and who is playing these games, I can vouch for that, because they've just been over to my page again with someone else's identity from here....but the more people DON'T talk about them, the more nothing will get done.

I've just received notification from Facebook that they've got my email, which I sent to 'abuse@facebook.com' but the MORE emails they get telling them about this, the faster they'll sort it out.

Mudcat is NOT helping by allowing the 'Guest' posting system to remain. WHY do you have it in the first place? Why?

And as Bruce has written more political songs than you've had hot dinners, which have inspired more people to change the way they think, alongside inspiring and encouraging many people to write their own songs, even to this day, I'd suggest that you show him a little respect, Joe...rather than treat him like you have done, above..

Double yeesh!

And that goes for me too, after you're extremely rude PM to me over Tam and Crow Sister's threads.

Physician...Heal Thyself!

So...fulck the BNP and all who sail in her, or support her, be it politically, or on the internet, including those who allow facist/racist 'guests' to post on their sites, whilst banning some of their own members from time to time!

Triple Yeesh!!!

And now, I'll leave you to remove MY post, Joe....


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:01 PM

What Royston had to say is a good start. Now, I'd like to see facts and links to back up what Royston says. If all you can do is post the same slogans over and over again, you serve as a beacon to attract posts that you claim you don't want to see here.

Keep the discussion rational; and avoid the temptation to post the same thing over and over again, which just serves to provoke conflict. You'll notice that I have edited all posts that contain Bruce Murdoch's favorite slogan. I'll ask you not to post that slogan again, because it has caught the attention of the BNP blogs. We don't want to Google ourselves into trouble we can't handle.

Even if you don't have common sense, try to use some in this situation.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:33 PM

thanks for getting this thread back on track.i know i have been one of the those that have been taking it off somewhere else, but like i said i had my reasons. now we have something to focus our attention on, then i for one will stop messing about.

take care all

jade x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:12 PM

Little Hawk, at times your "confucius once say..." lines of rambling pseduo-reason can be incredibly tiresome.

The BNP leadership are violent white-supremacist terrorists. They love Hitler and they deny the holocaust. They seek power for its own sake and they will wade through the blood of innocents to achieve it. This is not my opinion, this is a reasoned assessment of them and their objectives based on their actual criminal convictions to date.

They have mixed up a half-true delusion of folk-history to justify their lunacy and to stir up the darkest and most craven instincts in their running-dogs.

They know nothing of their true history and heritage, and they care even less about it and the British people as a whole.

Their claim to be the sole upholders of folk-arts and tradition is just a cynical power-play that has no greater depth than their ability to illegally copy artist's performances and sell them on rip-off CD's from their 'white-power' websites. The music site is actually called "Blood and Honour".

That is why the people that actually work to preserve and perform our musical and artistic heritage are standing up to say "Not in my name" and to repudiate the siren call of these worthless would-be tyrants.

To stay quiet while ruminating on some pseudo-intellectual assessment of what common ground we might share with these dangerous idiots would be a gross dereliction of our obligations as decent human beings. You may be happy with that, thankfully there are plenty of folk who are not.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM

"Sometimes the "wrong" people (politically speaking) do like many of the "right" things. This is because, like it or not, we often share a number of cultural and ethical values with people with whom we disagree markedly on politics...or religion. I find that all the time. It can surprise you what you have in common with your bitterest political opponents if you take some time and get to know some of them as real people.

That doesn't mean you are obliged to like or approve of their politics. "

That's not the threat we're actually facing at the moment. The BNP,as an entity, is deliberately trying to appropriate folk customs, events and music as part of their racist political agenda.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM

Last 'Season' LH, the BNP (nee NF) were infiltrating and appropriating our great British institution of football. What larks!

*Now* if people think 'football', they don't think "fun day out with the kids", they think "violent, skinhead, paki-bashing fun."

Job done then.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:34 PM

LH it ain't even that 'simple'
A few years back when the BNP attempted to 'use' mudcat to propogate their message of racial hatred they posted some 'modern folk songs' on here

As far as I'm aware they are still available in the archives but I really don't want to give a link to that kind of material.

It's not just about 'tradition' it's what you use it for!

Now honestly I feel that discussions of this kind belong to a seperate thread


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:28 PM

Yes, I see. It's an interesting situation, Ruth. It's very common for extremely nationalistic and rightwing political forces to celebrate the old traditions of their local culture (music included). It's natural for them to do that, matter of fact, because they will always emphasize such local traditions as opposed to anything new that is coming from outside the traditional culture.

This is on the one hand quite sincere on their part...although they may be using it in the service of a very reactionary political agenda.

I can well understand why you are concerned about it.

Hitler's movement loved the old folk music traditions of Germany, the old folk tales, the heraldry, the cultural past, and all that sort of traditional German stuff. And why wouldn't they?

Sometimes the "wrong" people (politically speaking) do like many of the "right" things. This is because, like it or not, we often share a number of cultural and ethical values with people with whom we disagree markedly on politics...or religion. I find that all the time. It can surprise you what you have in common with your bitterest political opponents if you take some time and get to know some of them as real people.

That doesn't mean you are obliged to like or approve of their politics.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM

"How the heck could the Far Right appropriate folk music in the UK or anywhere else, given the fact that most people who are attracted to folk music are lefties?"


This is a huge assumption, and it's certainly not borne out by my experience - least of all on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:20 PM

"I can't see the Far Right becoming that enamoured of Child Ballads, Loreena McKennit, Enya, Morris Dancing, the bodhran and other pleasant stuff like that. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps they are intent on carving out some lebensraum in the heretofore Elysian fields of folk music."

Well yeah - they are, actually. And of your examples above, it's the English ones they're most interested in, because they are intent on aligning "Englishness" with their racist agenda. They have their own morris side. There are BNP activists in my local morris side, as it happens. And, if you have a look at the link I posted, you'll se ethat they actively encourage their campaigners to infiltrate traditional events.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:14 PM

Little Hawk, the reasons behind the campaign have been discussed exhaustively up the thread. It might be a good idea to have a read befire deciding whether the threat is real or not.

Have a look at the facebook page:

Folk Against Fascism facebook group


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:58 PM

One of them (Mike) likes to say:

"If a person isn't a liberal when he's young, he has no heart. If he hasn't become a conservative by the time he gets to be old, he has no brains."

Needless to say, I disagree with Mike's proverb. ;-) I've met brainy people and rather heartless people on both sides of the political divide...and in every age group as well.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM

How the heck could the Far Right appropriate folk music in the UK or anywhere else, given the fact that most people who are attracted to folk music are lefties? The BNP must be awfully well organized!

If I was in the UK Far Right (a hideous thought...!) I think I would be far more inclined to appropriate hip-hop or hard rock or heavy metal or punkrock or some kind of music that appeals to skinheads... ;-) I can't see the Far Right becoming that enamoured of Child Ballads, Loreena McKennit, Enya, Morris Dancing, the bodhran and other pleasant stuff like that. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps they are intent on carving out some lebensraum in the heretofore Elysian fields of folk music.

If so, I wish you all the best of luck in combating their vile plans!   ;-)

You know, the funny thing is that in my local circle of folkies here there are several old curmudgeons (all males) who have swung way to the Right in their golden years...farther right in a couple of cases than Attilla the Hun. I put it down to hardening of the arteries or something along that line. They are still much outnumbered by us liberals and lefties, though, so I'm not too worried. Each contingent sings a few songs that annoy the others and we all manage to have a pretty good time on any given evening.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM

Richard,

My name is now legion...

...for we are many?

But there is only one *Richard* Bridge and those who matter know the difference.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'

How very true!

Count me in to actually DO something other than spout off 'go forth and multiply' sentiments here

See you at Codnor, Derbyshire.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:23 PM

No, Little Hawk - it is a specific response to a specific set of circumstances - the attempted appropriation of British folk music and culture by the far right. It is an effort to raise awareness of what the BNP is doing to try and appropriate British folk music and culture, and an opportunity for musicians to respond collectively to the appropriation of their music by the far right.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM

Is this anything like Folk Against Rape, Arson, and Sexual Abuse of Puppies and Small Children? (FARAaSAoPaSC)

If it is, by golly, count me in! I love being a member of a movement based on a moral premise so bloody obvious that even a half-witted hamster can grasp the concept and immediately get onside. There is, after all, security in numbers, right?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM

My name is now legion.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM

ruth,
i think what we have been doing is keeping this thread near the top, while waiting for stuff to be sorted, we have simply been filling in time until there is somethig concrete to do or talk about.

i am not annoyed or misdirected by the other stuff, as it is very juvenile, but gives me a laugh and helps me concentrate on what we are doing.

i would still love to have stickers and a t shirt so when people ask what that is about i can tell them. i am begining to bore all who know me and that way people will be coming to me, not me preaching at them.

does that make sense to anyone who cannot read my mind? i hope so!

i can't wait to be able to give out leaflets as i am rather good at getting folks to stop and chat.

i am gutted that we have already been booked for august, however my full support is with all of you who can make it.

take care all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM

Lizzie, if you want to start your own "Fucck the BNP" movement and produce a range of associated merchandise, go for your life. But the message we're trying to convey with FAF is somewhat more complex.


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM

Oops, it posted too soon...

You simply fill out the form and post it...obvious I know, but I thought I'd just finish my message off.

And....Fook the BNP....of course, which I think would make a rather excellent T shirt and entire range of FAF goods, but, hey.....whadda I know?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM

The other thing you can do on Facebook:

If you know of a copied profile, such as mine, or Bruce or Richard, then you get the page up, look under the photo and press 'Report this person'.....a box will then come up, saying this:

You are about to report a violation of our Terms of Use. All reports are strictly confidential.
If you're reporting someone for an inappropriate group, message, post, etc., please do so through the report link on the page where you see that content.
Block this person
If you block someone, they will not be able to find you in a Facebook search, see your profile, or interact with you through Facebook channels (such as Wall posts, Poke, etc.). Any Facebook ties you currently have with a person you block will be broken (for example, friendship connections, Relationship Status, etc.). Note that blocking someone may not prevent all communications and interactions in third-party applications, and does not extend to elsewhere on the Internet.
Report this person
Reason:
(required) Choose one...
Nudity or pornography Attacks individual or group Fake profile
Additional comments:
(required)

Is this your intellectual property?


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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM

Actually, it's not my thread, Bruce. :)

I am not suggesting reasoning with them. I don't really see the point in that, either. But I do think that this thread would be best used as a way of discussing activity which people might be planning under the FAF banner, or indeed discussing the issues that FAF raises, such as the posts earlier by Georgina and Fred. I'm not sure that the latest "oooh, look what they've said to me now!" message or repeatedly telling them to "have sex and travel" is necessarily going to move our purpose forward.

I say this with the greatest of respect to everyone who has posted here so far. And it's just my opinion, anyway - no one is under any obligation to take any notice of me whatsoever. :)


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