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BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham

MBSGeorge 06 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 06 Jun 09 - 12:33 PM
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Zen 06 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM
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Subject: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM

I expect some will wonder why I have decided to respond to the other BNP threads with this new one and tell everyone it is I who stood in Chippenham for the BNP. I wish to give people the choice to continue to be my friend or not.

As far as I'm concerened it shouldn't matter what my political views are. I am still the same me I was before people started to know. My views have not changed, people just know what they are now.

I can understand Mike not talking to me anymore as he is a cllr.

I can no more change the way I feel about things than the next person and if people no longer want to speak to me then I will understand but will of course be upset to lose some very good friends.

George


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:33 PM

So what's your point..? if you have one, which I seriously doubt
Rifleman (non - white immigrant)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:56 PM

What is BNP?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Zen
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM

The far-right and anti-immigrant British National Party.

It matters to me what your political views are if you are BNP but I will say no more.

Zen


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:01 PM

so as a member of the BNP,Please enlighten us as to how you intend to solve the economic problems of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Zen
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM

Perhaps I would just add that I once used to play with musicians who turned out to be members of the Flemish equivalent, Vlaams Blok, and who seriously verbally abused some very good African musicians in my presence. I walked out there and then and never played with them again.

Zen


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:21 PM

Membership of the BNP doesn't change who you are. You were obviously a racist already!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM

are you maggy st george?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:11 PM

What does the (abbreviation?? acronym???) "cllr" stand for?

MBSGeorge, please see my post in the cllr thread. (PM if interested.)

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:13 PM

so, mr /ms Simpkins please answer my question.How will your policies encourage multi national investment.
apolgies to MAGGY st GEORGE.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:24 PM

This one?

Chippenham Cepen Park and Redlands

DALE George        British National Party        114 (8.5%)
LLOYD Maureen Frances        Labour Party        171 (12.7%)
PHILLIPS Nina (Elected)        Conservative Party        783 (58.1%)
WOOD June Margaret        Liberal Democrats        275 (20.4%)
Turnout         38.2%

3.25% of the electorate voted BNP. That means 96.75% DIDN'T vote BNP. It's still far too many. I hope you are happier in the company of racist thugs than folk musicians.

Almost two thirds of the electorate didn't vote at all, despite the almost unorecedented publicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:29 PM

Fair play for going public, but I'm completely at a loss to understand how any sensible person could embrace the BNP when so much is known about it. The criminal convictions, the hatred, the violence, the racism, the bitterness and hatred - all of that is what has made the BNP what it is today, and all of it is well-documented.
For all the public posturing about 'fairness' and 'reasonableness', the BNP can never escape the stain of the swastika and Griffin's 'White Power' tee shirt, not to mention his holocaust denial, conviction for inciting racial hatred and financial dishonesty. And that's just Griffin. Look into the backgrounds of nearly all the BNP's leaders - are they really the sort of people you would want to turn to?
If you're not in denial, look back over the links in the other thread, and try to answer some of the questions put to 'Daily Mail Reader'.
As for politics and person being different - maybe that is sometimes the case, but when someone has the conviction to want to stand for election and seek public recognition for their beliefs then the politics becomes the person.
As such, I'm afraid I can only see you now as naive or nasty.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Barden of England
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM

I'll not condemn you. You have done what many GUEST-Annonymous people have not and said who you are. I want to ask you some questions though, that you are, of course, free to answer or not - as is you right.
I wondered what convinced you to stand as a candidate for the BNP? Myself, I'm happy with immigration, and have many friends of race and creed many of whom are 2nd and 3rd generation by birth. What would be your stance on these people, and what would be you stance on me considering that I am 3rd. Generation Romany/Scot/Irish/Jew?
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:56 PM

Well said George, you have my full respect.

Please take no heed of those above.

Take care and the Best of British to you my friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Barden of England
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:04 PM

TROLL, TROLL, TROLL.
I feel sorry for you MBSGeorge, if your cowardly fan club still hide behind a GUEST pseudonym. They don't have your convictions nor bottle.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:05 PM

Please take no heed of those above
With friends like you, telling her to stick her head in the sand and ignore reality, who needs enemies?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Barden of England
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM

I suggest you go here: thread.cfm?threadid=121408&messages=15
as DMR has turned up there. Shows you what a total w**nker he/she is.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Cats
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM

Hi George, it is good that you have 'come out' so to say and I hope you realise that I was trying to give you the chance to come face to face with one of those people who your party tells you you have to hate and actively and publicly denegrate. I am on the red watch list and that means that, all the while you are a BNP memeber, you have to make life difficult for me, up to and including giveing them all my details so they can target my home and family. I was trying to make it easier for you to do what your party says you are obliged to do by saying 'here I am, do it to me, someone you know, rather than any stranger off the list'. It would have been diffcult for you, I am sure, but might have helped to open your eyes to some of the things you are signing up to.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:09 PM

...and, George, although he's more than capable of answering for himself, I believe Mike's reaction had nothing whatsoever to do with his being an elected councillor and more to do with his own beliefs and experience.
He may be too modest to tell you, but he has worked in areas where he has had direct contact with the sort of issues the BNP exploits and with the sort of crimes it commits, and that has had more effect on him than any party-political dogma.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

"I can no more change the way I feel about things than the next person"

You could try. You could start seeing people as human beings instead of blacks/whites/immigrants/non-British. You could think back to the shameful ways the Brits/Yanks/Aussies/Kiwis have mistreated native peoples the world over. You could remember how easy it was to exploit minorities when it suited us, steal all their wealth whilst stuffing prayer-books into their hands, then cast them aside as inconveniences when times got harder. You could read your history books and take inspiration from the real Brits, the men and women in the 1930s who saw off Mosley's fascist thugs in the streets, real working-class people who had been through tougher times than any of us have seen but who were still not going to see minority groups victimised. As John Seymour said, the working people of east London may have had little time for the Jews but they were damned if they were going to see them herded into death camps. What your party is doing now is employing the age-old fascist strategy of lying about who's to blame for our woes to the disadvantaged white people in inner-city areas. You can change the way you feel by opening up your mind and thinking things through.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:19 PM

so DMR you have come out from under your' rock... but only when you have backup!! you are a coward my FRIEND.

GEORGE. how can you possibly think that your' political views have no bearing on personality?   everything we have to talk about and disscuss is due to politics in one way or another.   i don't know what lies you have been told but as (i assume) you are a responsibe adult it is your' DUTY to seek the truth. as JOHN BARDEN has already said, at least you are not a coward but this does not mean you have earned my respect. if you could answer the questions above then maybe we could all at least see where you are coming from.

another question, knowing what you know now about your' chosen party, would you do anything differently?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:27 PM

I was just a kid when World War II broke out.

Why, I wonder, when I read of the BNP and the pronouncements of some of its advocates, do I hear disturbing echoes of The Horst Wessel Song?

After the horrible ordeal of the late 1930s and early 1940s, one would think that anyone who was truly British had had enough of THIS sort of thing!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:35 PM

MBSGeorge:
the sort that starts a contentios thread and then buggers off...ahh look our 'friend' (not really)Daily Stale (sic) REader has resurfaces from the scummy pond inwhich she/he dwells with the rest of the BNP.

"The British National Party would probably make it into a parliament elected by proportional representation, too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of."

- Billy Bragg


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:42 PM

well, I never thought I would agree with Steve Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

here is one of his previous posts
Excuse me Diane.

If everyone thought like you there would be far fewer people interested in Folk as if they are not excellent at it they would assume they shouldn't participate.

I will be bringing my son up to enjoy all aspects of Folk and if he is interested in learning and joining in with any aspect I will positively encourage him regardless of his ability.

I have performed at several festivals as a booked artist, I am not spectacular but I have never heard anyone complain that as I am not perfect I shouldn't be performing. I do not dumb down and I try to find out origins to the songs which I perform. (something which has to be done now by law)

It is people like me who are bringing up today's and tomorrow's generations to enjoy and appreciate folk and who will contribute to keeping folk alive - at all levels.
I just hope he is not passing on to his son,his political views.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

so this candidate is Georgina Simmons,a middle bar SIDMOUTH singer,who is now Georgina Dale.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

It's not a him but a her, sadly.
She was lecturing me after I'd been talking about the importance of excellence in the performance of traditional music from whatever culture. Don't think I'd actually mentioned dub reggae and township rap either.
Now I'm getting out of this filthy thread to wash off the fleas.
The Anchor needs fumigating too,


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:06 PM

"Brits/Yanks/Aussies/Kiwis have mistreated native peoples"

You can add Canada to that list, and I should know


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:12 PM

Yep, I was typing quickly off the top of my head and couldn't hope to be comprehensive - sorry.   I know about the native Canadians quite well from a friend over there who teaches them on a "reservation."


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:37 PM

Steve here's a little something from 'the colonies' sent to me by my sister a couple of weeks back.
Residential Schools
In 1928, a government official predicted Canada would end its "Indian problem" within two generations. Church-run, government-funded residential schools for native children were supposed to prepare them for life in white society. But the aims of assimilation meant devastation for those who were subjected to physical, sexual and emotional abuse. Decades later, aboriginal people began to share their stories and demand acknowledgement of — and compensation for — their stolen childhoods


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:15 PM

Thanks for that. It's humbling at times to realise how little we know of what went on and what goes on in the world. People such as the BNP revel in fact that we are ignorant, and by their lies they intend to keep us ignorant. Ignorance is the best breeding ground for prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:36 PM

I see this thread was sitting just above the one about the visit paid by Obama to Buchenwald. Chillingly appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:12 PM

What I wonder, would Georgina's solution to the "immigrant problem" be in my case?

I am of second generation southern Irish stock, and it would bother me exceedingly, if, as I suspect the BNP were to endorse MY right to call myself British, simply because my skin is what we mistakenly refer to as "white".

If continuing to reside in England were as a result of that rationale, I would be on the next boat out, on a one way ticket.

That is an England I couldn't stomach.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:24 PM

Her mates.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

Well BNP candidate. It doesn't matter what my political views are then. So let me state. The BNP should be rounded up and exterminated or repatriated to the sewer from which they came. Doesn't sound so good when it comes from the opposite direction does it?. They are not a National party. They are a bunch of racist thugs who sprout ignorance and hatred. Their web site is a disgrace, their leader is a disgrace. Chippenham had 12 BNP candidates, not one got elected. Can't you take a hint?

THIS IS FROM THEIR SITE TODAY. "On this day, we wish to pay tribute to George and his comrades who were prepared to risk everything to defend Britain from foreign invasion."

That must include the Americans of all races that fought and died. That must include all the colonial soldiers that fought and died and continue to do so.Or are they excluded. You dishonour their memory !

I don't know you, I don't want to know you. You don't know me but you and your ilk insultand threaten my friends and colleagues. People I care about. People who work hard for themselves and this country.

Who are you going to start on first? Asians, blacks, catholics, jews, people with black hair, curly hair, dark skinned, the ill, infirm, mental patients, twins etc. What are you going to do when they say "We are not going" or "This is our country as well"? Beat them up,put them in ghettos? shoot them? Because that is what you are going to have to do. Are YOU going to pull the trigger? inspect the corpses? Or just give the orders?

Enlighten us please?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:59 PM

i suspect that neither DMR or GEORGE will be back to answer any quetsions that we put to them.    it is not in thieir nature to explain things logically, they prefere to stick the boot in then run. as i said before they are COWARDS. you would think that to stand for election GEORGE would be able to handle this pressure, but to me SHE just seems like the rest of her FRIENDS and just says something and doesn't expect an arguement...

she has come to the wrong place!!!!!!!!!!!

i really hope i am proved wrong and hope to read HER replies soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:47 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssNsV1hPEyU&feature=


just to remind you all this is what we are fighting.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:50 PM

"As far as I'm concerened it shouldn't matter what my political views are."


If your political views don't matter then why did you run for office?


Do you believe in them that much or not?


Your political attitude reflects who you are.


You either wilfully scapegoat foreigners or you just don't like em.


Either way, your attitude reflects that you would rather base your views on hate than pay attention to evidence.


Thank God for Britains love of democracy.


Britain can be proud ...


... for shutting you up again.


You should be ashamed of yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 12:19 AM

In a democracy isn't it a persons right to stand for any party they like? Whatever you think about the BNP and their policies, and I personally dislike them, they are not an openly nazi party and the manifesto on their website maintains their commitment to democracy. This isn't my opinion, thats just what it says on the tin.

Maybe some are nazis? Others are people just dissatsfied with immigration into this country, which is a valid topic for debate. I believe a lot of immigration enriches this oountry, yet some people such as tradesmen may justifiably feel that their jobs have been undercut by Eastern Europeans working longer hours for less money.

The lining up to bully MBSGeorge on this thread is amazing. She isn't to blame for the nazi gas chambers or the recent ricin discovery.

Maybe if you ask, she will tell you why she stood for the BNP and you can castigate her accordingly?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 12:54 AM

You're right, Steve. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about massive immigration. The survival of the planet might be one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:15 AM

"The lining up to bully MBSGeorge on this thread is amazing."

Indeed it is. But it's typical.

Given the fact that she has had the courage to openly state what amounts to absolute heresy here, you would think someone would at least want to know why she holds the opinions she does? And maybe discuss the actual issues?

Naww....better to just gather in a snarling mob and "burn the witch". Soooo emotionally satisfying.

(I might add that I am not in any way a BNP supporter or sympathizer. I know little about the BNP other than the fact that virtually everyone here goes ballistic whenever they are mentioned. Evidently they equate to modern day "Nazis" in people's minds. Since I know very little about them at this point, I'm not really in a position to offer much opinion about that.)

Democracy, however, allows all shades of opinion to be expressed, does it not? Or do we get to decide what opinions should be shouted down and silenced because we are "the good people"? Shall we excommunicate MBSGeorge for joining the BNP and daring to say so? Should I call the inquisitors and the executioner in now?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:23 AM

I had no wish to re-enter this reeking flea-pit, but feel I must in the face of the blinkered apologism displayed above.

Even if you were to place to one side the racist thuggery, the xenophobia, the colour-coded divide-and-rule strategy towards the proletariat, the holocaust denial and clear echoes of "Kinder Küche Kirche associated with this latest incarnation of fascism in Britain, there remains the BNP's policy of annexation of English music to further their vile purposes,

As this is a forum dedicated supposedly to traditional music from all cultures, it is not only repugnant but contradictory to include someone spouting violent, racist discrimination and opposition to multiculturism among its membership. In Germany, indigenous trad music is still ashamed to show its face outside university libraries, so tainted and damaged is it still by nazi associations. Our music and musicians deserve to be spared that sort of fate.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:14 AM

The core teaching [of the BNP] of course is the old nazi lie of the Jewish conspiracy.

It is extremely similar to that, I agree, but I find it hard to believe the BNP attitute to Asians is really just a cover for hating Jews. While not downplaying the horrors that were inflicted on Jews over the centuries (York in 1190 as well as WWII for example), I think the reason we need to fight the BNP is on behalf of all the persecuted groups, and the Jews are relatively far down on the BNP's list of groups to attack. For now, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:16 AM

Well played sir!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:47 AM

Little Hawk,guest Steve.
I have asked her [twice]to explain her economic solution,no reply.[HOW DOES THAT CONSTITUTE BULLYING]
I too would not be hear if the fascist parties had won world war 2.
I wholeheartedly endorse Diane Easbys comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Cats
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:53 AM

Think this just about sums up the whole argument...


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:53 AM

Well played sir!
Why, thank you. Always nice to have another one on board the good ship Reason. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:54 AM

Bold Herrings.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:57 AM

Yes, there has been some strong emotion expressed in the thread. But there have also been questions asked. But it's often easier to post something without the chore of actually reading what's already been written, eh?
I would, genuinely, like to see some answers to those questions. I doubt we'll get them however - it seems to be a trait of the BNP and other far right groups to make absurd assertions ("They're going to build a mosque in your suburb" being a favourite) and then never providing the facts to back them up.
So I won't hold my breath for George's rationale of her BNP support.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM

Well, George, you believe what you believe and I am pretty certain that I cannot change that. I wish that I could, though.

I do find the existence of BNP as a party abhorrent, as its messages are mainly negative, being based on exclusion. But I also see it as useful - I 'd rather see what I am up against than have it permeate society invisibly.

I do wish, like Diane said so well, that BNP would stop hijacking the country's traditions for their own purposes. Things like that should be way above politics. I think we can help stop that, and I certainly intend to try.

Meanwhile, if you fall I'll pick you up, and if you're stranded I will give you a lift. In a singaround I will sing with you. I don't have to be your friend to do those things.

But if you move next door to me I'll sell my house, together with Mujeeb, my neighbour and friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Gill Blanchard
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:15 AM

The personal is political. It is never possible to separate the two even if you profess to have no knowledge or interest. What we do, how we behave and what we believe crosses every aspects of our lives.

Yes in a democracy we all have the right to express our views, however repugnant. I will defend this right even for those who would then deny the rest of us that right, and treat large numbers of people as less/inferior to themselves.

I will and do judge people on their politics, especially if they stand for public office. I also know, like and respect many people whose political views I do not share. That does not extend to those who believe someone is second class, does not 'belong' somewhere and should be discriminated against because of race, class, gender, politics, sexuality, immigrant status etc.

We may have a problem with over crowding in this country but it is a separate serious discusiion to the hate politics of the BNP who use this to play on peoples fears about the economy, lack of jobs etc. Most of us are immigrants somewhere along the line if you go back far enough - ? Romans anyone - and I speak as someone whose mother came here from Ireland to nurse in the NHS for 40 years and know from actually reading their literature that the BNP only relatively recently removed the Irish from their list of undesirable immigrants.

Yes stand for the BNP if that is what you truly believe - I personally like to know who their supporters are - always good to see danger than have it creep up behind. It is not a witchhunt to respond to your publicly professed politics - those who use that term to defend you also show a remarkable ignorance of history and politics. If you can truly look at another human being who is different to you in some way and believe they should not have the same rights and respect then it is you who is second class and truly truly sad.

We are all in danger if we do not stand up to such ignorant zenophobic politics. A love of our country and heritage does not have to equate with hate and intolerance and we need to say so loudly and clearly. Never ever forgot the Nazi party came to power with a tiny percentage of the vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Dave Earl
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM

I don't do politics I do people.

I have heard / read a little about what the BNP stands for and I don't like what I have seen.

However I know George personally and have to say that (and I've told her so)I couldn't have placed my vote for the Party she stood for.

There are other friends who have political views that I don't agree with but they remain friends.Until George does or says something to me that annoys me enough to warrant (in my view) ending the friendship it will always be "Wotcher George wotcha gonna sing for us this time" when I see her at wherever.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM

Well done Dave,
    ostracising people only tends to harden their views. If, as I believe, what the BNP stands for is anti-human, then the only anecdote is a good dose of humanity.
As the Buddha put it, 'hate by hate is never overcome. Only love can overcome hate, this is the eternal law.'


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:50 AM

I wish to speak up for those of us in this thread who, though implacably opposed to the BNP, have neither hectored, bullied nor verbally abused the original poster. There are quite a few of us. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:53 AM

What is this - hug a Nazi week?? The BNP have no place in civilised society and I for one would walk out of any singaround that a member was at. Disagreeing with someone's political views is one thing and I have some good friends who have ideas variant from mine but endorsing out and out racism is something else and I would not be a party to it!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:16 AM

An Alliance candidate in Belfast is Ian Parsley, he`s English/


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:20 AM

Has anyone here ever seen the results of a group of thugs who have gone out "paki bashing"? I have. It's not nice.

The BNP is generally not regarded as economically right-wing, ie as having a strong belief in laissez faire economics. Rather, the description of them as 'far-right' relates to their allegedly extreme social views, obviously particularly in relation to race.

According to the BNP's website, the party's policies include:


• The repatriation of all illegal immigrants.


• The introduction of a system of voluntary, financially-aided repatriation for existing, legally-settled immigrants.


• The repeal of all equalities legislation, regarded as positive discrimination/reverse discrimination.


• Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union and the pursuit of protectionist economic measures.


• Encouraging greater share-ownership and worker co-operatives.


• Funding public spending increases and tax cuts by cutting foreign aid.


• The introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the introduction of capital punishment for paedophiles and terrorists and its reintroduction for murderers.


• The reintroduction of national service and the requirement of people completing national service to maintain a standard issue automatic rifle in their home.


• A mandatory jail term for anyone assaulting an NHS worker.


• Where applicable, the reforming of disabled and homosexual people.

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/bnp1.html Seem like a bunch of OK people to me then.

By the way what does reforming of disabled and homosexual people mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM

His dulcet English accent fooled me, he is a native of north Down,


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Fred Mccormick (Cookieless)
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:09 AM

"The reintroduction of national service and the requirement of people completing national service to maintain a standard issue automatic rifle in their home."

I hadn't noticed that one. Remember Dunblane?

Don't be fooled by the BNP's embracing Laissez Faire economics. These people know there isn't a snowball in hell's chance of them ever being elected constitutionally. They know that ultimately, their only chance of ever gaining power is by taking it during the international cataclysm, which they themselves envisage. In other words, they believe that the day will come when they will be able to impose a totalitarian dictatorship and a corporate state on the rest of us. Of necessity, that will include central control of the economy. In other words, no laissez faire.

"Where applicable, the reforming of disabled and homosexual people."

Nasty. Compulsory sterilisation, I imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:43 AM

In my circle of folk music friends in the Orillia area I can think of 4 people, all regulars at the song circles here, who are quite conservative in their political values. I disagree with them about a great many things when it comes to politics. They instinctively support what I instinctively oppose. (and most of us folkies here are quite "liberal", but not those four)

Nevertheless, I have found all 4 of them to be excellent friends, fine musicians, people whose company I enjoy, people whom I can trust on a personal level. They are honest, creative, capable, and reliable individuals with much to offer the world.

We just don't agree when it comes to politics. We vote for different people.

I have found no reason to ostracize them, hold grudges, and hurl abuse at them. Friendships should not be compromised by differences in political beliefs.

I am well aware that everyone's political beliefs are based on the instinctive defence of something they honor and value. This is understandable...though they may not grasp the total picture. Very few people do grasp the total picture. In fact, I doubt I've ever met anyone who truly grasps the total picture, myself included, needless to say. We're all partially informed.

One of my best friends here says things that would leave most of you aghast when it comes to politics. Does he believe the things he says? Well, I think he believes about half of of it, but I know he also says some of the outrageous things he does merely to piss off certain people and it's a form of dark humour on his part. Those who are so full of themselves and their own glorious righteousness that they never get off their politically correct soapbox have to know him for awhile before they realize that he's just pulling their chains. Nobody bothers getting het up about it anymore, because we know the man from long experience, and he IS a person of excellent character, he's just a curmudgeon, as the expression goes. I find that he does not prejudge individuals, however, regardless of who or what they are, but deals with them each on their own merits. That's a good road to follow in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:46 AM

As a member of a Worker Cooperative I totally reject their interference in a model which is based on values of honesty, equality solidarity and care for the community.

I will be passing this onto Co-ops UK to see if they can reject this.

In no way do I want a social and economic model in which I chose to work, and which has a tradition going back more than 150 years to be associated in any way whatsoever with those scum.

Steve Belsey
Furius.....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:51 AM

"Where applicable, the reforming of disabled and homosexual people."

i think what they mean is the bringing back of assylums, elecric shock therapy. and "Compulsory sterilisation".

oh the joys of living then eh?

i have not bullied or bothered anyone on this thread, well maybe a bit, but that is mostly out of frustration, i and others have asked reasonable questions over and over again and have had no answers.
is it any wonder that in the absence of replys from GEORGE,we are getting a bit fed up? most of us are TRYING to understand where SHE is coming from.

i too have friends who have political veiws diffrent from my own, but we talk it through and usually end up having a laugh about it, with no one being upset.so...

i ask again to GEORGE please come back and answer the questions put to you!!! this shouldn't be difficult since you stood for pulic office.    PLEASE?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:11 AM

Yes, jeddy, it would be good to have those questions answered. I would also like to hear an explanation of her political views.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM

Little Hawk

Your friends are 'quite conservative'. The BNP are not 'quite conservative' and therein lies a fundamental difference. I also don't have a problem with people who are 'quite conservative'.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:29 AM

I think you might have a long wait ahead!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:34 AM

Yes, okay, Nick. As I say, I'm not much familiar with the BNP at this point, but what I judge individuals on is their character and their personal behaviour...not their beliefs. If I were to judge people on the basis of their beliefs, I'd lose an awful lot of friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM

Sterilisation, compulsory or not, would not 'cure', or prevent, either homosexuality or disability. Perhaps the previous posters mean 'compulsory castration' - though I suspect that wouldn't work either.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM

"Sterilisation, compulsory or not, would not 'cure', or prevent, either homosexuality or disability."

I'm not sure there's any practical difference between castration and sterilisation. However, they probably regard homosexuality and disablement as congenital states and want to prevent these people from passing their genes on. (Thinks. If gays only have sex with people of their own sex, how on earth are they going to pass their genes on?)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM

Holding personal views is one thing, but seeking to gain a position of power wher ethese views could be imposed is another.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:10 AM

Sure. And you fight them politically in that case. If my friend in Orillia was campaigning on his right wing views, I would support some other candidate instead. He would still, however, be my friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:27 AM

"If my friend in Orillia was campaigning on his right wing views, I would support some other candidate instead. He would still, however, be my friend"

i understand that cutting off a friend would be extremely difficult but what if that friend found everything you hold dear as an abomination and wanted you subjected to horrific practices to change you, would you still think that person was worthy of your' friendship? i for one would not.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Alice
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:33 AM

LH, there is a difference between being conservative and being racist. I think our UK 'catters are talking about racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM

I think that's right, Alice. The party itself seems to be out-and-out racist. Some of the posters, however, seem to equate being against massive immigration as being racist. There are a number of reasons to be concerned about immigration that have nothing to do with race.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:54 AM

I love mosques.

I love kohl pencils, wear it all around my eyes.

I love curry.

I love bright colours and kaftans, sparkles and jewellery.

I love Bollywood dancing.

I love my country which is made up of a Dulux Colour Chart of Shades of People.

A Hint of Afghanistan
A Hint of India
A Hint of Africa
A Hint of Poland
A Hint of Portugal
A Hint of Saudi Arabia
A Hint of Pakistan

If you mix all the 'colours' together, you get The Best of British, which is one of the most long lasting colours around the world, one that shine out, glistens and glitters so brightly.

I love my country because it's so tolerant. It's so tolerant that it even tolerates scum like The National Front..oops, sorry, The British National Party.

I had many a strange conversation when they'd pootle over to my Albion Heart myspace page, thinking I was 'one of them' purely because I had an English flag as the main photo.

"It's people like you who help to make this country what it's become!"
they'd snarl...

Don't get into it all for the wrong reasons, 'George'...These people are NOT nice. They're vicious bullies and thugs, who won't accept any way but *their* way. They're obsessed by the colour of people's skin, because they don't want to know about their souls...and they're so thick, stoopid and uncaring that they don't give a shite that half the world is starving and half the world is overweight, so the starving are coming over moving to the more affluent nations.

I would, wouldn't you?

Any friend of mine who joined the BNP wouldn't be a friend, short and simple. My Dad went to war to keep Hitler out. Why the foooook would I or anyone I was friendly with support them.

WHY are you a member of the BNP 'George'?   Can you explain to me what made you join it?

If you joined because you feel we've lost 'our traditions and so much of England' well, I got news for you, WE threw *that* away ourselves, in our rush to beat ourselves up for the bad parts of our history. The only people you have to blame for that is the English themselves..and the white English at that...

A Hint of World

I think the BNP should paint their main offices with that colour, it may have some effect on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM

The BNP is a racist party, full stop. Its senior officials have criminal convictions for inciting racial hatred, and there is enough evidence around the web, both pictorial and verbal, to back this up.
It has close links with the KKK, Aryan Nations, Stormfront and other overtly racist 'white power' organisations and was founded by a man who admired the Nazis so much he wore a Nazi uniform. The BNP is a heck of a lot more than merely 'conservative'!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 11:47 AM

...and this is from the BNP constitution, a document George has endorsed by standing as a candidate for the party. It's pretty much self-evident:
The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration …


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 12:08 PM

Fred, the difference between sterilisation and castration is that sterilisation would prevent procreation but sexual activity should be unaffected, whereas castration would be intended to prevent sexual activity (but obviously some such activity would still be possible).


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 12:46 PM

I appreciate that neither MBSGeorge not Cllr appear to have posted again to the threads they started on this topic. Great restraint.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:12 PM

or perhaps like the KKK,They have no sensible answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:22 PM

WYISYG, WHY IS THAT GREAT RESTRAINT? oops forgot to take off caps, are you being sarcastic or do you truley admire them for not answering questions that have been put to them?

i would love to hear from BOTH of them but for entirely different reasons.

CLLR, i would like to know if he has made any progress in trying to talk to george.

AND GEORGE, because i would like the chance to try and understand why she would aline herself with such a nasty party.

Riginslinger, you seem to forget that there are other parties tht want to sort out immigration and the whole europe situation, why not recognise them instead of the bnp. the bnp are so much more that racist, they are evil, small minded people who would if possibe change this country beyond recognition, and not for the better.

if i have misread your' posts i am sorry, but it sounds like you think the ends justify the means. please tell me that my half aleesp brain has got it wrong!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:41 PM

There seem to have been many Nazis who were of decent character in their "personal" lives, who were probably good guys to sit down and drink and sing a song with. This didn't stop them from going to work and, for example, facilitating the transportation of people to death camps. I would think you would at least want to examine your friendship with someone of that ilk.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:46 PM

I dislike BNP politics, it shocked me some months ago to discover they were 'infiltrating' the folk scene. As D. Easby say's they represent a serious threat to our common cultural heritage, as much as any genuine political danger.

And yet I would far rather have a civil debate concerning BNP politics, than a mass condemning. I want to know the specific details that brought George into the fold. Because without knowing what draws 'average' people in the UK to the far right, there is no hope of countering the dangerous tide of that flow. As a broadly anarchist communist myself with no sympathies for far right politics, I prefer sensible communication over ostricisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM

If you stand for political office it is because you wish to pursue your agenda, whether it be the party or group to which you subscribe or your own unique views you wish and strive see it carried on to greater things and eventually have a substantial bearing on society. Maybe even being in government and forming laws if completely successful . That must be obvious to anyone. It stands to reason then that if I were to stand for a political office, I state here and now, it would be somewhere middle left or further from the right wing since I have in recent times made my views known several times. I would then work toward re-enforcing the views I hold and hopefully achieving major success.

The BNP are well known in Britain, have been well known and the National front before them. Their views and underlying ethos have been stated publically, privately and exposed by all forms of public media.This information is readily and easily available for those who don't understand or have yet to find out about them.

Any adult who joins them must make a concious decision to follow the ethos that lies behind the BNP and be willing to engage fully in their odious policies.

"I can no more change the way I feel about things than the next person". Crap !!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM

Little Hawk, you never cease to amaze me with what you are willing to tolerate! Once again I remind you of Dante's relegation of those who remain "colorlessly neutral" in the face of an ethical question to the lowest level of Hell.

You say, ". . . what I judge individuals on is their character and their personal behaviour...not their beliefs."

But a person's character is based on their beliefs. Is it all right to cheat and steal? Some people think so!

Is it all right to deny someone their civil rights? There are groups of people out there trying to do that right now!

Is it all right to ghettoize and/or slaughter whole ethnic groups? That's exactly what some people have done and still want to do!!

A person's beliefs are an integral part of their character. And people ACT on their beliefs, Little Hawk.

####

I posted this on another thread, but I think it's appropriate here as well:

"If you can keep your head while others around you are losing theirs, then you don't understand what's going on.
                                                                                                                   —paraphrase of Rudyard Kipling
Having fun, Little Hawk?

Don Firth"


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Bullying?!?

She put herself in the public eye.

She ran for public office and therefore made herself available for public comment.

That's how democracy works.

We use our free speech to discuss candoidates pros and cons.

Then we vote for one we want.


The BNP is a party of race hate.

To stand for that party is to endorse that hatred.

The leader is a holocaust denying racial purist.

The leader is not a 'fringe element' of the party.


In standing on a BNP ticket, our mudcat fascist accepts his leadership.


I use my free speech to say why I could never vote for this candidate.

I use my free speech to say why.

I use my free speech to say what I despise about this candidates character for associating herself either willingly or blindly with such an intolerable group.


I am fulfilling my duty as a member of this democracy by participating fully in the process, and in this case protectinbg it from a party whose set of principles utterly opposes it.


If you stand for the BNP you can expect to be utterly pilloried.


If you don't like it - tough!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:30 PM

Jeddy, my Mudcat name is an acronym for "What You See Is What You Get." It's a tipoff to take things as they've been said. No sarcasm in my comment. My posts seldom require reading between the lines, overmuch.

People do not always start threads (or post) to start a Q&A or engage in either debate or outreach. I admire the restraint it takes not to enter a fray in an environment where real communication is real difficult.

Obviously in a BNP-related thread the fray is inevitable, but these two people seem to have chosen just to continue to use Mudcat the way it was designed and skip the shite-slinging it can also engender. I hope they keep it up. It's a model from which I can learn much.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:39 PM

As long as you are commenting on a correct understanding of someones actions.

The thing about silence is that you can interpret it any way you like.

So if you infer dignity from MBSGeorges silence then fair enough.

I see none as I interpret it utterly differently.

Why?

Because while silence offers no evidence of any sort about somebody's character, Loyalty to
this man says a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:42 PM

Lox, for sure. But isn't it somewhat tiresome to preach so fulsomely to the already converted. Surely such an exercise is empty of anything other than egoistic satisfaction?

I just don't see the possible value of everyone on Mudcat repeatedly stating their hatred for the BNP, this is in no way aiding in the understanding of WHY more and more working class people are being seduced into the 'nicer' face of fascism, or indeed addressing HOW we attempt to counter that tide. I see it as a serious threat worthy of meditation upon.

For myself, I want to understand and constructively dialogue.
So long as left wingers simply spout off about how awful the right are, there will be ever greatening divides and polarisation. One approach is to address the other side as human beings with thoughts different from our own, in order to gain common ground and mutual understanding (and hopefully areas of constructive change), the other is to simply rant about them so we can all feel better about ourselves and more pissed off about how bad things are getting...

I think the BNP are a very BIG potential danger amongst the lowly educated and pissed off working classes in the UK. I want to know what to do about it. A start is not to utterly alienate their voters both current *and* potential.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:49 PM

George, I'm sorry. I had thought better of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

Anyone I know (and there havee been many) who has attempted a dialogue with a BNP member has inevitably come out of it with only bruises for their troubles.

"But isn't it somewhat tiresome to preach so fulsomely to the already converted. Surely such an exercise is empty of anything other than egoistic satisfaction?"

This thread was initiated by a BNP politician.


I am responding to her.


As for egoistic satisfaction - you clearly don't understand what they are or you would see that they should always be confronted under all circumstances.


I do not do so by expressing hatred, I have been a lot subtler than that.

My post above for example is a video of MBSGeorges chosen leader explaining how to make 'racial purity' more socially palatable by calling it 'identity'.

Once again, I am responding to the initiator of this thread and will happily argue with any BNP supporter or apologist till the day I die as this issue is not one where there is any room for compromise.

The only hate that exists on this thread is that defended by MBSGeorge when she gives her support to the BNP.


Looks like you guys are just starting to grapple with the reality of Cllr's dilemna - what do you do if your friend turns out to be a BNP supporter ...


In which case you will see that i have given a deeper response than crow sister has given me credit for.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

This, and the parent thread, was not whether the BNP were OK. Theyre not. They are nasty, mixed up, SUFFERING people, hiding behind a cloak of 'speaking for others. What Adorno calls victims of the submissive/authoritarian mindset.
    These posts were about rections to a PERSON, a known and liked person, who had taken action others found reprehensible. lots of venom above, little compassion for others. Never mind historical and psychological evidence when there's good old majority prejudice around to bully people with, as the Nazi's did.
   Read some Alice Miller, who traced the childhood experiences of the Nazi leaders, an absolute catalocue of abuse, neglect and indifference.
   Hitler'e childhood was rerrible, abused and huilioated by his father and betrayed by his Mother's failure to protect him. These people should have loved him. Sadly, as Miller explains so eloquently, a youngster, or anyone, faced with this reality normally chooses to idoliose the opprressors and gain revenfe/scapegoating elsewhere.
Hug a Nazi, as one incoherent spluttering post put it. Petty more didn't when the actual Nazi leaders were kids, they could have changed the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM

In my face-to-face life I work with anti-racism. In my Mudcat life, I know too well how the environment mitigates against effectivness. It can be a good place to build a strong platform for a relationship, but it doesn't really serve well as a platform strong enough for difference. That, in my experience, requires a closer contact.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM

On the subject of working class ignorance -

Working class people are the same as any other type of people.

They are intelligent, human, loving etc

we all are.


Those of us who don't know who the BNP are might be tempted to vote for them.

Those of us who aren't educated in the finer details of the economy might be easier to persuade that our problems are the fault of foreigners.

But once educated, once we leaarn the truth, once we see the lies exposed, all of us - intelligent, human, loving - could never choose a philosophy so riddled with errors and grounded in hatred.


The answer is to inform and to confront publicly where people can see the BNP's arguments turn to mush and dissolve.


You guys may not like to admit it, but MBSGeorge is loyal to a party who denies the holocaust and who believe in Racial purity.

Whats more, she is loyal to a party who have a policy of disguising their hatred in acceptable language.

MBSGeorge supports this stuff.


It isn't pleasant to admit for those who have shared knowledge and friendship with her, but it is true, and she has reaffirmed it at the top of her own thread.


I'm sorry if you don't like me confronting her but it is something that I am dutybound to do and I will not stand down.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

"you clearly don't understand what they are or you would see that they should always be confronted under all circumstances"

Of course I understand, unlike many members of my economic background. But you don't seem to appreciate the points I'm attempting to make. I'm not taking issue with your taking the BNP to task. I believe the BNP are a serious threat within the poorly educated of the UK (who won't necessarily know their history), and at this time of enomomic unrest in particular. Which is precisely why, us lot l=bleating on about what a bunch of filthy fascists they are, does absolutely NOTHING to either understand or remedy the current tide of support they are building.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:27 PM

Tug,

My ex partner is chronically addicted to drugs.

She had an atrocious upbringing.

I feel huge sympathy for her, because her addiction has resulted in her losing her job, her friends and her child.

It is so powerful that she cannot dispense with it.

The consequence in her is utterly inappropriate behaviour which is why she is a danger to her own child.

She is unable to put hewr own child first.

This is an illness and i feel sorry for her.


But I have a much greater responsibility towards my daughter who's safety cannot be compromised.

So though I feel sorry for my ex, I can't allow a change of circumstances until she is able to confront her own problem.

I have to address my problem, which is that my daughters mum is a risk to her.


MBSGeorge may be very personable, but the party she has shacked up with is a danger to all of us in society.

Sometimes people go off the rails.

Many mothers have to swallow the fact that their child has turned into a danger to society.

They may still love their child, but they may realistically have to admit that their child should be in Jail.

Friends of MBSGeorge can admit it or not, but it will still be true, that she is loyal to racist views and to a party that believes in the racial superiority of 'pure' whites and who have a history of violence and aggression.

MBSGeorge knows this if she has read any of these threads but is unapologetic. She stands by her views.


My approach is, she may be loved, but while she does this she must be confronted.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

"bleating on about what a bunch of filthy fascists they are,"

This comment does not represent my posts on either BNP thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:05 PM

"Riginslinger, you seem to forget that there are other parties tht want to sort out immigration and the whole europe situation, why not recognise them instead of the bnp."

                I'll trust you're right about that, jeddy. It's not like that in the US. The KKK wants to do something about illegal immigration, the Democrats want their votes, and the Republicans want their cheap labor. I wish we had more major political parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM

I'm with Lox on this one. Totally.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:26 PM

I agree to a great extent with Crow Sister; we need to connect with the people who were betrayed by New Labour, and who have turned to simplistic populist answers in reaction. Face it, the Trades Union movement had a few highly intelligent, highly politicised leaders, and a great mass of fairly simplistic followers.They are, by and large, broadly decent people. They aren't historians, and a couple of generations removed from the 2nd world war, the label of fascism has lost much of its power as a warning. They have been betrayed by the Labour Party, the people who puported to lead them. The Labour Party (not the bit of it that betrayed them, but that's getting complicated) opposes racism, so perhaps they were lying about that as well as about trickle- down.

We need to recover the sense of class. That a working person from whatever background has the same interests as other workers, and that the bosses- those to whom a windfall of 20000 pounds is just a fairly ordinary occurrence- are the ones who should be deported, strerilised, gassed etc. (joke).


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:30 PM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:30 PM

Damn, missed it!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:31 PM

WYSIWYG, like i said my brain was still half asleep, i knew what your' name means but couldn't quite get my head around the thought that someone would start a thread and then bugger off, i thought the whole point of mudcat was to disscuss something not just post and run,but as i am a newbie, i shall bow down to your' experiance. no sarcasm.

riginslinger, i have to admit i know nothing of american politics,could you fill me in? please use simple words as my brain is not exactly big lol.here in uk we have several smaller parties that want to sort out europe and the boarders and very few of them( from my understanding, i could well be wrong) have the hatred of the bnp. i understand that to anyone who doesn't live here the bnp don't sound too bad, and in fact they don't when you take them on face value (on most things that is)it is only when you dig about a bit that they reveal their true nature. as you can tell scratch the surface and it is a different matter.

i assumed that being america there would be a bit of something for everyone, but the more people i talk to from over the pond the more i seem to be wrong.

x x


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM

We need to recover the sense of class

Yes, indeed.
But how? Faced with globalised capitalism, the choice of socialism in one country versus permanent revolution is no longer a valid one.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:39 PM

jeddy - The American political structure seems to have evolved so that only two major parties can share the stage at any one time. Originally we had the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans, then Jackson took the Democratic-Republicans into left field, they became the Democrats and the Whigs popped up. The struggle between the Whigs and the Democrats ended with the election of Lincoln, the first Republican, and the Democrats and the Republicans have been the only major parties since that time. No other party can get a foot-hold, because the Dems. and the Reps. aren't much different. If an outside party starts to gain momentum, they band together to drive the new guys out.
               To many of us, it seems like we simply have a one party system.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:53 PM

Riginslinger,sorry to show my ignorance again,but what is the difference between democrate and republican?

the way you discribe them they sound klike what they are doing should be against the rules. it is very different than what we uk peoples are led to believe(or at least my understanding).

i have always thought that america was for anyone and everyone had a voice and could speak out, and apart from the war, the people were listened to. i am begining to think i have been conned.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:20 PM

George, why not step down from the BNP and help to promote choirs like this:
The Drakensberg Boys Choir

Did you see that...all colours, singing traditional songs of their country, South Africa. Now if that's the other way around, would that be wrong?

That video was taken from Azizi's page, and if you've not yet found her beautiful and informative page, well, here it is..

Cocojams - Azizi's Myspace


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:40 PM

I've only ever (knowingly) met two members of the BNP, who drink at my village pub. They are also morris dancers, as it happens. I have heard them use blatantly racist language on a number of occasions - they are not questioning immigration or engaging in a debate: they despise black people and will openly say so.

The BNP's apologist agenda is giving people who believe in the politics of hate a veneer of respectability - scratch the surface and the hate is right there for anyone to see. I cannot say that MBS George shares the "old-school" race-hate views of my neighbours, but she is representing a party who holds these values at their core, whether or not they admit it.

Like several people have said, I don't think I could share social time, even in something like a singaround, knowing that one of the people there was a BNP member.

I find it somewhat alarming that the only three BNP members with whom I've had any contact are also involved in folk. I worry that there is a correlation between the misappropriation by right-wing extremists of English identity and their interest in folk music.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

MBSGeorge, I also had hoped to read some explanation from you as to why you decided to join the BNP. Given that you have not posted to this thread after your first post, I no longer expect you to provide an explanation on Mudcat. But I did think you were open to doing so because you started this thread.

I can't imagine someone running for office (or is the correct British phrase "standing as a candidate") representing the BNP political party who does not believe in the same things that the BNP does. Don't you believe that that party's position are racist? Don't you believe that the holocaust occurred? If you are a Christian, how do you reconcile the BNP believes with Jesus' teaching?

It saddens me that there are people in the world who would hate me just because of my race and It angers me that so much evil has been done in the name of "racial purity" when there is actually no such thing in the world. It also angers me that issues such as "immigration" are used as cover for such heinous positions as expressed by the BNP and their cohorts throughout the world.

If this is what you really believe, MBS George, I hope that one day you will change your mind-and yes, even people who think that they would never change their mind about what they think are strong positions have done son. For example, see this excerpt from an article about the African American activist Malcolm X:

"'[Malcolm X] emerged, then, as an open-minded, proud Black man after his trip to Mecca and finally began grasping the impact of diversity and spreading the word of this newfound freedom to the thousands who followed him. In fact, in reference to his trip, Malcolm said he had met "blonde-haired, blue-eyed men I could call my brothers" after so many years of defining those same white men as "devils."
-snip-

http://www.diversityinc.com/public/5119.cfm
Malcolm X: The Misunderstood Civil-Rights Champion?

By Zayda Rivera; February 26, 2009

**

Here's an except from a reader's comment about that article:

"The biggest lesson that Malcolm X teaches us is the transformative possibilities of reading, experiencing life, traveling, meeting people, thinking, and reflecting. I often tell my students that receiving a college diploma does not necessarily mean one is "smart" or learned. Some of the smartest people never attended college and Malcolm X was one of them. Reading his autobiography has been a transformative experience for many of my students (and me). He modeled individual responsibility in effecting social change. His words are just as relevant today as they were in the '60s. "

-snip-

MBSGeorge, I hope that you will experience the "transformative possibilities of reading, experiencing life, traveling, meeting people, thinking, and reflecting" and will come to accept me and other people of color as human beings who have the same rights and responsibilities as White people do.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:05 PM

See, George.....it's not just Azizi's page that's 'beautiful'...that beauty comes from within Azizi herself...

Hey, my Sister! You turned up at *just* the right moment! :0) xx

The 'Best of British' Folk Music:
Edward II - Myspace

Paddyrasta - Myspace

The Smirkins - Myspace


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:07 PM

Woops! Posted that too soon....

and of course...

The Imagined Village - Myspace


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:22 PM

I know virtually nothing of the BNP platform, but complaining about immigration to the UK at this date, is it not like trying to close the barn door after all the horses have entered?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

We just got our first European seat, wonderful wonderful news.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:31 PM

Shit. BNP have just got their first ever MEP in Yorkshire. Shit. What the hell are we playing at? I think those of us who are anti-racists really need to get our finger out.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:32 PM

"We just got our first European seat, wonderful wonderful news"

For who exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM

"Face it, the Trades Union movement had a few highly intelligent, highly politicised leaders, and a great mass of fairly simplistic followers.They are, by and large, broadly decent people. They aren't historians, and a couple of generations removed from the 2nd world war, the label of fascism has lost much of its power as a warning."

What an incredibly patronising(and inaccurate)comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM

"So long as left wingers simply spout off about how awful the right are, there will be ever greatening divides and polarisation."

So you think we'd be better off employing "tactics" to get the message across to these poor, iggerant working-class types rather than speaking the plain truth, which is that the right are indeed awful, self-interested, self-serving, selfish, elitists? I think you tell it like it is and forget about patronising people.

Apologies for the lack of word spaces in my last post - I don't want anyone thinking I'm Dick Miles in disguise, even though hesbeenniceto me inthisthread. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:07 PM

"what is the difference between democrate and republican?"


A Republican is someone who spends a lot of his money telling other people what to do.

A Democrat is someone who spends a lot of other people's money telling other people what to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM

"Riginslinger... what is the difference between democrat and republican?"

                jeddy - The Democratic party is slightly left of center, and the Republican party is slightly right of center. There are other parties, but they rarely win anything. If a Green candidate, for instance, gets elected mayor or country commissioner is some little burg, it's news all across the country. If the two major parties agree on something, it's a done deal. Nobody else has a voice.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:12 PM

Of COURSE everything people are saying about racism, BNP etc is true ( DMR, as I thought everyone knew, is a satirist). REPEAT, thid threas is about a person and how her frinds could best react.
Lox, your parallel allusion above just doesn't compare like with like. Of course confront, at every opportunity, off course, interrupt racism, at every opportunity,of course, allow peope doing or saying racist things to know that you are uncomfortable. DONT ever collude by being silent. BUT.... NEVER give those who feel that they are dispossed, betrayed or unvalued to deepen their anomie by treating them as other than valuable human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM

Another Griffin Lie

A few mnutes ago he said it is illegal to register an English charity.

I am waiting for the BBC to apologise for this slanderous comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:49 PM

Tug,

I oppose the ideology.

The ideology only lives if it can find a home in peoples hearts and minds.

You are right that all humans deserve to be treated equally.

But if their hearts and minds are occupied by the ideology of hate, they should be treated with caution until it loses its hold on them.


I thought DMR was a satirist, and certainly he/she came across as a lot more realistic after I pointed out that he/she seemed to be a bit to American to be believable as a BNP supporter.

But I am not so sure now.

Either way, on a public forum, such comments should in my opinion be followed by appropriate clarification.

BB

A republican is someone who spends his own money telling people what to do is he?

I would say that a republican is a person who invests other peoples money in risky investments, spends other peoples money on weapons, gets other people in massive amunts of debt by borrowing more money than they can afford to spend on weapons and dodgy investments once hew has spent all thei money ...


Clinton left a budget surplus ...

Obama took over a deficit and a massive financial crisis ...


What happened in between?


waste of other peoples money thats what!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:28 PM

i haven't caught up properly on this thread yet but i am SO ANGRY that i need to tell everyone.

HOW COULD THEY? we should dispair that soo many people have voted for the bully boys. even so the only reason they have GOT IN is that the turn out was SO LOW!!!!!!!!!!

i am ashamed of those brits that could not be bothered.


i promise i will catch up and read everyone elses opinions in the morning but i HAD to vent my anger and suprise.

ggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:07 PM

"I would say that a republican is a person who invests other peoples money in risky investments, spends other peoples money on weapons, gets other people in massive amunts of debt by borrowing... to spend on weapons and dodgy investments..."

          Lox - This is kind of off topic, so I'll just point out that what you describe has been true since Reagan. It wasn't always that way. But I'm registered Green, so what I say really doesn't count.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Cats
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:09 AM

Steve Shaw.. I totally agree with you. I go to Womens TUC conference each year and my national conference and meet Trade Unionists from all over the world, not just UK. They are educated and have a deep feeling of what is right and a sense of wanting to help others who may not be in a postion to help themselves or have the confidence or ability to speak out. Yes what he said was patronising and totally wrong. I would love to see the evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:23 AM

"So you think we'd be better off employing "tactics" to get the message across to these poor, iggerant working-class types""

Not tactics, communication rather than ranting isn't a 'tactic'. It's treating someone as an equal with the ability to engage a bit more deeply with their own assumptions and reasoning.

I know people from my own working class background, who read The Mail, who are young, and have been brainwashed into beginning to take notice of what the BNP say.

They are otherwise good people, but they don't all necessarily take seriously the history of fascism, or the implications of BNP policies. It's too far removed from their personal experience. Now of course I could simply tell them how disgusting I find them, and tell them they are racists (which they will deny - and *believe* it too), or I can sit down and talk with them as an equal, about what they really believe in and encourage them to think a bit more fully about the whole thing.

One young guy of my aquaintance is a genuinely good person, I've never heard him express any form of racism - he likes what the BNP have to say about supporting the working class. He likes what they say about ensuring British interests are not undermined by Europe. He also thinks it unfair that British people don't recieve the same degree of support in their own country, that foreign people do. Now that's the way the BNP would put it. And I would suggest that ostensibly there is nothing wrong in any of that, presuming of course that the premises underpinning it all are correct (well it's in the news every day isn't it?), and the implication of such policies are not fully considered... That's where discussion comes in.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:38 AM

"Shit. BNP have just got their first ever MEP in Yorkshire."

They'll gain a great deal of credibility from that. In psychology I believe they say that the setting of a precedent has a big effect on group behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:00 AM

Yes, I'm ashamed to say that, despite our best efforts in Yorkshire and Humber, we now have the stigma of a fascist MEP. As if it wasn't bad enough electing that drunken idiot Godfrey Bloom from, UKIP!

I, for one, will continue to fight against both.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:06 AM

Is that the same bloke from UKIP who has a conviction for benefits fraud?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM

There was an interview with Griffin on the Today programme this morning. Along with claiming it was OK to limit membership of the party to those of a particular ethnicity because it was a parallel with him not being able to join the Black Policemen's organisation (sorry, don't know exact title) or set up a White Policemen's organisation, he also denied that he was a Holocaust denier, and stated that the killing of millions of Jews was appalling.

Hmm

Still don't like him or his party or his policies.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM

"Another Griffin Lie

A few mnutes ago he said it is illegal to register an English charity.

I am waiting for the BBC to apologise for this slanderous comment."

I'm not exactly sure what that statement was supposed to mean. If he's suggesting that an organisation which identifies itself as English cannot be eligible for charitable status, the EFDSS is one example which proves him wrong.

"I know people from my own working class background, who read The Mail, who are young, and have been brainwashed into beginning to take notice of what the BNP say."

They're not all young. I remember having these conversations with my ex-father-in-law, who was in many ways the loveliest man you could meet. But he was a white, working class Daily Mail reader, and although he lived in a suburb of Birmingham where he didn't see a black face from one day to the next, he was convinced that the immigrants (just the brown ones, of course - I was okay) were threatening his way of life and ruining the country. Where did the paranoia come from? Well, I would suggest it was in large part due to the paper he was reading, whose stock in trade is the politics of fear.

I remember a very difficult conversation with him once when he said that he was actually considering voting for the BNP. They were the only party looking out for the white man, apparently.

Now, one thing I would suggest is that it's bad enough for someone like him to be flirting with the idea of voting for the BNP. It's a very different thing for someone to be committed enough to actually join the party, and be an activist (like my neighbours) or stand for office (like MBS George). The former can be a misguided act, influenced by the party's softly-softly PR. But to really commit yourself to the BNP, you must have a pretty good idea of what they're all about, beneath the respectable veneer.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:45 AM

"he also denied that he was a Holocaust denier, and stated that the killing of millions of Jews was appalling."

Griffin denying holocaust.

So he is also definitely a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Crow Sister.

I agree (as you will find of you look back up this thread) that hurling abuse at the BNP and its supporters does nothing to diminish its support.

That is called causing a confrontation.

I agree that that is not the way to do things.


I think we should all confront the BNP though and that means confronting Fascist politics.


You speak of talking to folks who aren't informed.


That is one way of confronting Fascism.

By doing so you expose lies.

Provide information a d expose them.

Provide the evidence and let people make a truly informed decision and not one based on kneejerk scapegoating.


As I said, the people you are talking about are the same as you and me. They are intelligent and human, and if they knew the truth they would never vote BNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:33 AM

Lox. "he (Griffin) also denied that he was a Holocaust denier, and stated that the killing of millions of Jews was appalling."

Griffin has denied not just the holocaust. He also claimed that the Stephen Lawrence murder wasn't a racist killing and that the Anne Frank diary was a fake. And of course he'll be out there denying the nazi past of Andrew Brons. Strange how ultra-fanatics can never face the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: fiddler
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:44 AM

Read all this and would make a couple of comments

I outed George on Facebook more than once and on here - she is so committed she deleted the posts on facebook and sent me a message stating she wanted to keep her politics private - when standing for public office - humph.

Also

I can recognise some folk think differently but as a candidate George is trying to persuade others to think her way.

Whilst her bravery is high in coming out - I cannot accept her new position and no longer include her as a personal friend. Acceptance of such things is how the hollocaust came about - though many of her leaders say it didn't.


What about all the non whites killed in Iraq, Afaganistan and other conflicts supporting Britain - and especially the Gurkahs!

I will not move on to the records of the BNP party leaders both now and in the past you could do a whole Phd on it.

I suppose at least we know where and who they are now.

Andy


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:50 AM

I have tried engaging and discussing with supporters of the BNP in the past.

Unsuccessfully.

I met with two in a local pub some time back and had a discussion with them about there views. Since then I can guarantee that whenever I have seen them since then I am met with "this guy loves pakis" followed by out come the phones and one after another out roll the racist jokes.

This is political debate of the highest order. Policy driven. Highly intellectual.

Been threatened with physical violence when they were out with about 10 of their friends who share their views. The guy backed down when we got to the actual moment of him deciding whether to actually hit me or not which is probably a good thing for me as he is about twice my size.

I find it hard to accept BNP members as friends. If their views emerge after I already know them I'm afraid the friendship does not last as I can't reconcile friendship with the holding of those views.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:58 AM

Although I have regarded George as a personal friend for many, many years, things have now unfortunately changed. I would not be comfortable singing in her company, as Fiddler says" acceptance of such things is how the holacaust came about".
I know that life has not been the easiest for George and this may have directed her ideas along this sad path, but I would hope with a bit closer study of the real world she could choose a better path.

Andy ( the other one)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:58 AM

"Is that the same bloke from UKIP who has a conviction for benefits fraud?"


No, Richard, it's this buffoon:


"A Euro MP for the UK Independence Party has sparked controversy hours into his first day in the Strasbourg parliament.
Godfrey Bloom was given a seat on the European Parliament's women's rights committee on Tuesday.
But he told the media: "No self-respecting small businessman with a brain in the right place would ever employ a lady of child-bearing age."
A range of fellow politicians were outraged, saying his views were terrifying and outrageous.
Mr Bloom, an investment fund manager from York, told journalists he wanted to deal with women's issues because: "I just don't think they clean behind the fridge enough".
"I am here to represent Yorkshire women who always have dinner on the table when you get home. I am going to promote men's rights," he added. "                

And this:


"A British MEP uses his parliamentary staff allowance to pay three assistants who are also employed at an investment company in which he is a major shareholder.
Godfrey Bloom, the UKIP representative for Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire, who made headlines when he claimed that women do not "clean behind the fridge enough", employs his 20-year-old niece and two other members of staff at TBO Investments.
Mr Bloom was director of research at TBO until he was elected to the European Parliament in 2004 and remained as a consultant until two years ago. He still owns 20 per cent of the company, which was fined £28,000 by the financial services regulator last October for "advice failings".
Emma Brader, his accredited parliamentary assistant, and Victoria Skowronek, his secretarial assistant, were both working in the York headquarters of TBO Investments yesterday, six days before the European elections. David McLaughlin, another member of his staff, is a director of TBO Investments.
Mr Bloom, 59, has used his official website to highlight the expenses scandal at Westminster. It says: "Godfrey Bloom employs no immediate members of his family on his secretarial allowance, unlike most other MEPs (non-UKIP)." It also laments the "woeful lack of candour and common sense in modern-day politicians".
He confirmed yesterday that Ms Skowronek was his niece and lives next door to him in Wressle, East Yorkshire. Ms Brader, 26, a leading point-to-point rider, wrote on Facebook about their prospects if Mr Bloom was not re-elected: "This would mean that Vicki and I would lose our jobs and Godfrey says we'd have to go on the game, but we wouldn't make much money because we are too old!"
UKIP confirmed yesterday that Mr Bloom was questioned by a senior parliamentary official last year about a "possible conflict of interest with the employment contracts". Paulo Cam- pilho, head of the parliamentary assistance and members' general expenditure unit, decided that no further action should be taken, the party said.
Mr Bloom has become one of the best-known MEPs with his views on housewives, prostitutes and pregnant employees. He has claimed that "any small businessman or woman who employs a woman of child-bearing age needs their head examined".
He also once argued that the majority of prostitutes were not exploited. "In short, most girls do it because they want to," he wrote in an article for the Brussels-based political magazine The Sprout in 2006.
The Yorkshire Post reported that Mr Bloom admitted having visited brothels as a Hong Kong-based businessman, although the amount of beer he consumed meant that no encounters were consummated."


Maybe not as dangerous as the fascists, but severely unpleasant nontheless.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Mr Red (purely a sartorial affectation)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:13 AM

Darling.............

Folkies like me might talk to anyone, including (please excuse me) politicians, but

there are some politicians who we would not hug.

Does this help?

And dialogue is the only way to proceed. Otherwise it leads to conflict and worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM

Well, I'm now represented in Europe by that whelk-eyed, shuffling, drooling, hunchbacked example of Aryan supremacy Griffin.

The BNP didn't increase their share of the vote (it actually went down) in the North-West, but the fact so many voters decided on BNP-Lite UKIP (whose MEP's have been spectacularly corrupt) and also stayed away in droves meant that the miscreants got in.

The government and those MP's rumbled during the expenses scandal are largely to blame for this disaster. The BNP and UKIP have managed to tap into the disillusionment of ordinary working-class people who feel totally let down and ignored by government. Even now, the lack of contrition by all involved in expenses debacle and the fact so many abusers of the system will get big payouts from the taxpayers they have already plundered when they are finally put out to grass only alienates people further.

This complete disillusionment is obvious to anyone who lives in the UK, except the political classes. The fact the people of the UK are crying out for a return to the politics of values, trust and engagement with ordinary citizens has passed the Prime Minister by completely. True to form he calls into No.10 the scrotum-faced cockney sparrow Sir Alan 'My products are shite but people are stupid enough to buy them' Sugar, offers him a Peerage and co-opts another unelected Labour buddy into the Government. Watching Sugar's almost embarrassed performance on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday morning makes me suspect he took the peerage because it strokes his inflated ego rather than a genuine altruistic desire to help struggling businesses - VAT relief for sole traders would go some way to sorting that out.

The real point is Sugar's appointment demonstrates Labour is still in thrall of the rich elite of UK big business rather than the people it is supposedly working for. No doubt we're all supposed to be impressed that Brown is calling on the savvy of a famous and very wealthy businessman/celeb like Sugar; in reality it confirms the popular view that Parliament is an old boys club. Had Brown given a peerage to a senior nurse of many years service and set her to work on reforming the over-managed NHS then that might have shown he finally understands that the public want a change to real world politics. Instead city bosses get big bonuses and payouts and the rest of us are left to struggle on.

The right-wing always do well when the economy is on the ropes and the vacuous ideology-free nature of the three main parties are laid bare. We should thunder against Griffin and his gang of oichs, but we should also be showing our MP's just how much they have let us down. I'll write to mine again, even though he's been shamed and humiliated recently, to remind him of his abject failure to his constituents and his country. I'll write to my new MP and encourage him to breathe new life into our stagnating towns, and represent all of the electorate in his new constituency.

They won't win, and in the long-run they never do; however it would be good if we can rid ourselves of this cancer of hate and intolerance in our society before it spreads too far.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:23 AM

as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't matter what my political views are..................My views have not changed, people just know what they are now.

Wrong and wrong and wrong. It does matter what your political views arte especially when you stand for political office as a member of fascist party. PResumably you hid them when you are in the Middle Bar.

Can I suggest you announce them before you sing next time. Feel free to stand up and say "I am a fascist and I stood as a candidate for the BNP at the last election".


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:29 AM

Good post there, Jack. Just about sums it up. But you'd better take out copyright on that superb description of "Sralan" because otherwise I'm going to be using it shamelessly all over the shop from now on. "Scrotum-faced"...I love it! Keith Richards is no longer alone in the world!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:32 AM

"Had Brown given a peerage to a senior nurse of many years service and set her to work on reforming the over-managed NHS then that might have shown he finally understands that the public want a change to real world politics."

Beauifully illustrated point Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:49 AM

To give one example of a BNP member's behaviour in Swansea which ended up in court three years ago.
He was driving slowly through the Landore area of the city when he saw a young asian woman walkingon the other side of the road.
He started seig heiling at her and shout racist obscenities.
His revolting behaviour was noted by another motorist who followed him to a nearby car depot.The police were called and he was subsequently convicted of race hate crimes after a court case.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:51 AM

You mean like the eminent surgeon Ara Darzi, who was made a minister and given a seat in the Lords so he could be in government?

Yes, the political system is tarnished, and the venality and greed of so many individual MPs is shameful, but I think the government's taken an unfair shoeing over this. But it's easy to take a pop at whoever's in power (and it's easy to be in oppositon, even when your MPs are greedier and more corrupt than the government's, it seems.
What really pisses me off, though, is the response I keep hearing from people. "I didn't vote; it's not worth it".
As has been pointed out, the BNP were voted in wither fewer votes that they got last time, because people were too jaded, cynical, spineless, lazy, stupid or selfish to vote.
Anyone who doesn't vote abrogates the right to whinge, moan and kvetch about the system.
I wonder if the prospect of being herded into cattle trucks and taken to the gas chambers by MBS George;'s political masters would cure that sort of mealy-mouth, spineless, whey-faced, pathetic equivocation.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:39 AM

Folk Against Fascism facebook group


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:03 AM

why is it that people just don't vote anymore? i know the "there isn't anyone i trust" thing,but don't they realize that unless they start voting,and for the moment it really doesn't matter who(apart from the obvious)you vote for.but if we all start to take an interest the politicians can keep on doing whatever they want and ignoring our wishes.
this to me makes no sense people get dissillutioned but instead of getting out there and voting they stick their heads in the sand, then moan about who gets in. WHY WHY WHY, can't they see that participation is the key and not ignorance is bliss.

sorry if i have overstated my point but i am truely bewildered. x x


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM

Thanks for the 'Folk Against Fascism' link. I don't do Facebook myself, but would be very interested in hearing of the groups plans as they develop. Hopefully 'Joanie' will put up a thread on Mudcat at some point to keep us all posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

For the 'Folk against Facism' group creator, and any people that consider themselves 'Folkies' - is that the very word 'folk' derives from the german 'volk', which in its original terms would have meant 'ethnic people of the nation'. Furthermore, before it reached our English vocabulary is was used in references to the nationalistic people of a nation. Now, one could argue that facism derived from nationalism, and it almost certainly did in the case of The Nazi party.
So, if the term hadn't of reached us before then, that means that we are using the word folk, in full ignorance of its connotations and assumptions with fascism. Maybe we should change the name of the group to 'pre-second world war working class song and music musicians against Fascism' - the world 'folk' is too inaccurate.

If history had of gone a slightly different way, the BNP could have been the BFP - the 'British Folk Party'. And 'Folkies', could have been now called, 'Nationalies'. (hehe)

We must remember that deep within our music is a national identity, but we are beyond that. We are living in modern times, and this isnt 100 years ago. Our national identity is not what it used to be. The BNP arent actually Nationalistic- I actually think Nationalism is a good thing, as long as it doesent get confused with Coffee Table politics such as the BNP who are really a bunch of cowboys.

The BNP get voters and members in by acting nationalistic and for the 'folk', but this just covers up their deeplying, not prejudice or cowardice, but simple xenophobia.

Maybe we could have a real nationalist party for the real folk of the united kingdom today. The English, The Celts, The Spaniards, The Muslism, The Indians, The Europeans and anyone else living here who wishes to embrace and revive the true heartfelt culture of the Islands.

Yours etc...
Otis.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:52 AM

Now, on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely am I take lessons in philology from someone who can write "If history had of..."?

Compare (ignoring the regrettable rendering "unelegant", which should be "inelegant") the following from Wikipedia regarding "Volk":


"English Folk "people" is derived from a Germanic noun *fulka meaning "people" or "army" (i.e. a crowd as opposed to "a people" in a more abstract sense of clan or tribe). The English word folk has cognates in most of the other Germanic languages. Folk may be a Germanic root that is unique to the Germanic languages, although Latin vulgus, "the common people", has been suggested as a possible cognate. [1]




[edit] Etymology
The Modern English word folk, derives from Old English folc meaning "common people", "men", "tribe" or "multitude". The Old English noun itself came from Proto-Germanic *fulka which perhaps originally referred to a "host of warriors". Compare Old Norse folk meaning "people" but more so "army" or "detachment", German Gefolge ("host"), and Lithuanian pulkas meaning "crowd". The latter is considered to be an early Lithuanian loanword from Germanic origin, cf. Belarusian ¬á¬à¬Ý¬Ü - po©©k meaning regiment and German Pulk for a group of persons standing together.

The word became colloquialized (usually in the plural folks) in English in the sense "people", and was considered unelegant by the beginning of the 19th century. It re-entered academic English through the invention of the word folklore in 1846 by the antiquarian William J. Thoms (1803-85) as an Anglo-Saxonism. This word revived folk in a modern sense of "of the common people, whose culture is handed down orally", and opened up a flood of compound formations, eg. folk art (1921), folk-hero (1899), folk-medicine (1898), folk-tale (1891), folk-song (1847), folk-dance (1912). Folk-music is from 1889; in reference to the branch of modern popular music (originally associated with Greenwich Village in New York City) it dates from 1958. It is also regional music."



The Wikipedia entry also discussed the nazi-era attempt to annexe the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Harmonica Will
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

Nice reply Otis.

I hope the BNP go and fall down a hole.

W


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

Richard,

10 for the effort I say.

Maybe ill just go wander through the fields again though.

Your etc...
Otis.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:35 AM

OL. "We must remember that deep within our music is a national identity"

Ballocks. Absolute crap. The traditional musics of these isles were formed and made by those people who used to be demeaningly described as the lower orders. If there is any sort of identity in traditional music/song at all it is a communal/class identity.

In any event, apart from the fact that the English, Scots and Irish traditions have been swirling around for so long that it's hard to know where one begins and another leaves off, what sort of influence does OL imagine the music of continental Europe exerted on "our native" traditions? Dunno. Can't tell you. All I do know is that whenever I listen to European traditional music I can hear all kinds of echoes of music from neare home.

You've fallen for the same mistake that Sharp made a century ago and which Griffin and his acolytes continue to make today. IE., they suppose that national social culture is something fixed and immutable and buried in our genes and somehow sewn into our folk music. It isn't. All aspects of our social culture, music included, are in a continual state of flux, and subject to external influences, and have been ever since different groups of people learned to interact with each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

For the benefit of Americans (such as LH) who might not know better...

Had MBSGeorge announced she was an active member of the Ku Klux Klan and was campaigning for support in your area, consider how you'd react. Now maybe you understand why there's a certain amount of bad feeling, yeah?

Restrictions on immigration? Separation from the EU? Policy of immigrants being required to have some minimum level of integration into British society, such as being prepared to learn English and not having the stated aim of establishing Sharia law here? I've got friends with differing degrees of opinions on these things, and that's fine because they're all rational responses to real problems, even if I think they may be over-reacting.

But white supremacy? No way, never.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:15 AM

Also it's worth asking MBSGeorge about the membership policy of the BNP.

If you're not 'white caucasian' then you're not allowed in.

Funny how MBSGeorge has sprung to the defence of her party. Or not, as the case may be.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

"Griffin denying holocaust."

DEnying the holocaust is the last stand of the ignorant, it's a standby when all else fails. In Canada there are similar people who deny the residential schools ever existed, despite all the evidence.

"Restrictions on immigration? Separation from the EU?"

Notice to those advocating these points, the horse got out of the barn along time ago, too late to shut the door.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:22 AM

I missed this...*LOL*

"You're right, Steve. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about massive immigration. The survival of the planet might be one of them."

Try deporting me, Riginslinger and you'll have bitten off more than you can chew....now where are the dogs and my tomahawk...sic 'im!!? *LOL*


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM

Kudos to those of you who have stood against the platform of the BNP...I am grateful there are so many of you and that you have spoken up.

Just a note about this reference:

...it doesent get confused with Coffee Table politics such as the BNP who are really a bunch of cowboys.

Just because the Shrub purported to be a "cowboy" doesn't mean it's okay to malign all cowboys by this kind of reference. I grew up with cowboys, have known them all of my life, and my dad and granddad essentially were cowboys in that they owned their own ranch. BNP-types do NOT equate to most cowboys. I know there are some wannabes out there and I know a lot of cowpokes might be conservative, but they are generally not hate-mongers, etc. So...quit using "cowboy" as a negative adjective, please!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM

Sorry kat - it's a piece of British slang. "cowboy" in the UK equates with shoddy, bogus or gimcrack, hence "cowboy builders". It's not meant to be a slur on the real cowpokes.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM

"So...quit using "cowboy" as a negative adjective, please!"

It means something different here in the UK (as we've never had cowboys in the US sense). Here cowboys mean fly-by-night workmen, bodgers (although that implies bodgers were clueless which is not true either), half-wits and people who don't do a proper job when working. Lazy, uncaring about the work, placing no value on skill or professional pride.

So don't take offence - none meant!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

I dont know where I come from. I dont know the geography around my Town. I dont listen to any music what so ever. Ive never read a book. Ive never listened to anyone ever. I dont go out. Im a hermetic cave dweller. I have no religion. No Belief. No Loves. No Hates. No manners. No language. No sayings. No fucking colloquialisms. No accent. No dialect. No opinions. No hobbies. No family. No relatives. No influences. No History. So community. No friends. Ive never travelled. Never been taught.

I dont know what Im getting at really. Fuck it?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM

Funny how MBSGeorge has sprung to the defence of her party.
Anyone care to open a book on the first considered post from someone who's not a 'guest' giving the answers and refutations to the points made about the BNP?
As I said earlier, I'm not holding my breath.

Sidmouth is going to be interesting this year, however. When the subject was raised in the Middle Bar Singers' Yahoo group there was an instant flutter of 'don't mention politics here' posts and then the matter was closed. From that it seems clear that some people are happy to go through life with their fingers in their ears or hands over their eyes, but I don't feel that I can, and feel obliged to challenge George on her beliefs this August. Not in a hostile way, I hasten to add, but because I genuinely want to find out what brings a person to want to stand for the BNP, and I don't think we're going to get any answers here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM

- Katlaughing,

Good come back. :) Sorry to those cowboys I may have offended.

Yours etc...
Otis.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM

No, my memory is faulty, Otis. Thanks, Gervase and Sugarfoot. I knew that was the way it was used over there; I'd just forgotten. Another one of those words we need to added "UK" or "US" to as in "pissed.!"**bg** Thanks, folks, er...foiks..or..well you all!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:02 PM

and feel obliged to challenge George on her beliefs this August. Not in a hostile way, I hasten to add, but because I genuinely want to find out what brings a person to want to stand for the BNP,

Makes me wonder as well.

http://www.zen26144.zen.co.uk/articles/crapcouncillors.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM

"they suppose that national social culture is something fixed and immutable and buried in our genes and somehow sewn into our folk music. It isn't."

I think I'd like to fine-tune that. I believe that there is a cultural inheritance from our past, genetically and socially - but it is also changing, as the oral tradition (I suppose in these days the electronic tradition) absorbs influences from other cultures. But I'm not keen on wholesale adoption of other cultures and rejections of one's own cultures. That I think is quite distinct from the BNP approach which insists on slavish adherence to at least the old ethnicity.

We should know who we were as well as who we are.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM

As an (ignorant/naive) American (USA type) these posts could come across to me as alarmist and paranoic concerning a small and surely insignificant extremist group (I over-simplify) but then Crow Sister recounts this: "One young guy of my aquaintance is a genuinely good person, I've never heard him express any form of racism - he likes what the BNP have to say about supporting the working class. He likes what they say about ensuring British interests are not undermined by Europe. He also thinks it unfair that British people don't recieve the same degree of support in their own country, that foreign people do. Now that's the way the BNP would put it."

And then it reminds me strongly what a German national told me once. He said that when Hitler first came to power the working men liked and admired him. He said that for the first time the bosses came into the pubs and sat down and drank with their working men, that the class barriers had been broken by Hitler. He said that it was hard for the working men to come to the point where they admitted that Hitler was a "rascal" (his term).


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

I'd just like to point something out here.

Walkabout's Verse gets nothing but the most outright nastiness for his beliefs on repatriation. Yet here are some saying they're happy to sit down and have a drink and a gentle discussion with someone who is actually not just a supporter of the BNP, but one of their politicians.

Now, don't you think that either those who feel this way should sit down with WAV and have a gentle conversation, or else treat 'George' in the same way they treat Wav?

You can't have one rule for one, and one rule for others....purely because it's someone you happen to know.

Or can you?

Is it all down to being a Middle Bar Singer, which carries with it some kind of magical excuse?

There are no excuses.

A BNP candidate is standing for a Party that believes in evil things.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM

Sort of like "from tiny acorns mighty oaks do grow", eh, Ebbie?

The thing is, though, if you purport to have a democracy at all, then that entails the risk and displeasure of hearing and putting up with the existence of extremist views that offend you, doesn't it?

There's always a risk that those extemist views may end up dominating a society. One way to prevent that risk is to forcibly shut down all views you regard as "extremist" so that you can control the situation.

But then you have yourself become the very thing you feared. You have become a supporter of a form of extremism and totalitarianism.

Bit of a conundrum, isn't it?

Extremist views generally gain power in a very bad economic situation...or in the wake of some shocking incident that polarizes public opinion.

Some examples of that:

the Great Depression (and other such financial crises of the past)

the Reichstag Fire

the sinking of the Maine in Havana Harbour

the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria in 1914

and.....

911

It is at those times of crisis that cooler heads must prevail if an already bad situation is not to be turned into something even worse.

I see little danger of the BNP seizing control of the political process in the UK. I think they could only have hope of doing so if economic conditions in the UK got very, very bad to the point where people were desperate and very afraid. Then perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM

"A BNP candidate is standing for a Party that believes in evil things."

                  But for those of us who see runaway immigration as an evil thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM

"As an (ignorant/naive) American (USA type) these posts could come across to me as alarmist and paranoic concerning a small and surely insignificant extremist group"

The problem is that the BNP has gone through a huge PR excercise in recent years to move away from the characterisation of "an extremist group". They have played down the racism and played up those concerns which speak to lots of white, working-class people. If we take our eye off the ball, they will claim a lot of disaffected middle ground. We have to keep reminding people of who they really are and what they stand for.


Nick Griffin teaches American White Nationalists/KKK to "sell" their policies


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

WAV ,is Irrelevant,he is not a member of the BNP .But I understand your point Lizzie.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:03 PM

Walkabout's Verse gets nothing but the most outright nastiness for his beliefs on repatriation. Yet here are some saying they're happy to sit down and have a drink and a gentle discussion with someone who is actually not just a supporter of the BNP, but one of their politicians.

Fair point Lizzie. WAV is one man on his own and not as far as I understand a member of any extremist organisations. MBS George on the other hand is a paid up member and wannabe political represntative of a fascist party. I think we'd have more of a chance winning WAV over than George, on balance...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM

Rifleman - So far I've been with you all the way - but I've never heard anyone deny the existence of residential schools. Are you serious? If so, can you direct us to any source or evidence to back that statement up?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: carrot
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM

It's not just the immigration that's an issue here, it's also the homophobia, the holocaust denial, the suggestion that gay/lesbian/disabled people should be sterilised, the suggestion made by one candidate that 'rape isn't such a bad thing'.

They have evil views, and shouldn't be allowed to spread them.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM

You cannot prevent people from spreading their views in a democracy.

You can disagree with those views. You can point out the fallacies in those views. You can satirize those views in a comical act. You can also make such things as slander, for instance, illegal. You can present your own views of the issues in response. You can promote your own views.

But you cannot prevent people from spreading their honestly held views and beliefs in a democracy. If you want to, then you yourself are abandoning democracy and sliding into fascism.

Freedom of speech isn't for some of the people in a democracy. It's for all the people in a democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:35 PM

the freedom of speech, hummm, i have no problem with anyone who says what they think, i do have a problem if that person cannot explain why they think the way they do. GEORGE has said, this is what i believe and nothing you say or do will change my mind. why? is it because she is embarassed that she was taken in? is it simply because she doesn't understand the wider implications of her decision?

i have no idea why when she has openly stood for a public vote she cannot at least give answers to those of us who have a geniuine interest as to her motives.

the other problem with "democracy" is we only get told half the story, surely democracy means being given the facts so you can make your' own mind up?
something the bnp will never do becuase they know that the entire country will turn against them, not just those of us who have enough concience


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

pants hit the wrong bit,

to investigate who we are voting for and what they truely stand for.

however i feel like i am preaching to the converted.
i have no idea how to get through to those who really have no interest in politics without sounding like i am preaching.

ok hit the button in the right place now.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:43 PM

"but I've never heard anyone deny the existence of residential schools"

Sorry I should have made things clearer. My sister and a friend were having coffee at a cafe in Victoria, BC., Canada, and they were discussing the residential schools, someone, rudely, turned from another table and said that the whole compensation programme, for ex-residents, was a bagful of lies, because the whole resdential school issue was lies to begin with. This attitude is not wide spread nor is there anything printed, but, apparently, it's out there.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:57 PM

Just saw this on the United Against Fascism website.

"British National Party (BNP) gain its first two seats in the European parliament. BNP candidate Andrew Brons, a former stalwart of the National Front...."

Just about says it all doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM

i have no idea why when she has openly stood for a public vote she cannot at least give answers to those of us who have a geniuine interest as to her motives.

Because the beliefs of the BNP are predicated largely on a series of lies, and therefore won't stand up to scrutiny. They might sound OK when shouted out on a street corner or in a pub, but examine them, test them and look for the truth and they just crumble.
I, too, would love to hear George's justification, but I'm guessing that when she thinks deeply about it she has a hard enough time justifying it to herself without coming on here to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

LH, I think you might look again at your list of exemplars.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

"A BNP candidate is standing for a Party that believes in evil things."
But for those of us who see runaway immigration as an evil thing... " Rig

Ye gods, Rig. Give it a rest, will you? Or at least find another way of expressing your worry?

For instance, you keep talking about "runaway immigration" when, unless you are indeed actively bigotted, you actually mean world over-population.

Because: (listen!) If all those criminal people who are thirsting to enter your country illegally were to stay home but kept on reproducing, eventually that country or continent might become unlivable, with mass extinctions. If none of them came to your country, your country might flourish in blind isolation but I suspect that few of the people in it would feel proud of themselves.

On the other hand, if some of those same people travelled to other countries it would NOT mean the "end of the planet". What it would do is relieve some of the pressure on the populations of their home countries.

As I've said before, I have great difficulty seeing the justice in believing that some people have a greater right to survive than do others.

Come on.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM

Despite all the vitriol being aimed at the BNP(who did rather well in the recent election), the most disgusting political crime that I can remeber in the UK, was the sight of Labour and Conservatives united and marching behind the odious Blair and Bush(the chimp and the poodle) into Iraq.

A proper public inquiry into the reasons for war has been promised, but don't hold your breath.

I don't think the BNP(and I'm not a supporter) could manage anything quite so vile.

glasshouses?....stones?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:15 PM

I have absolutely no problem with freedom of speech. Indeed, I am all for it. Save for limitations on things as yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. And I favor being able to take someone to court in the case of libel or slander (remembering, of course, that if what the defendant has written or said is the truth, that is not libel or slander). Other than that, I'd say people should be free to say whatever they wish, no matter how brilliant or nincompoopish, and express whatever opinions they wish. I reserve that right for myself as well, of course.

And that latter includes my right to disagree with someone else's opinion and say so, first as reasonably as I can, and if that fails to get through to the person, as vigorously as I feel the situation warrants. Up to and including pointing out to that person that they are advocating the ideas of a fascist or a bigot, if that is indeed what they are advocating.

I feel that as a person of good conscience, when I hear people expressing ideas of that nature, I am morally obligated to speak out in opposition.

Some people object to this and, instead, advocate pussy-footing around and being wimpishly polite to someone who is acting like a boor and a bully and who has no intention of engaging in rational discussion, and try to get everyone, including the boor-bully, to hold hands, sway back and forth, and sing "Kumbaya."

Can you imagine trying that with Hitler, Mussolini, or David Duke—or, for that matter, Nick Griffin—and having them go all gooey?

I don't think so.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Reece
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:16 PM

If you continually satirize and ridicule a certain viewpoint you are doing exactly the same thing as facism, in that you are making it impossible for anyone without a great degree of strength (i.e. learning to have no friends) to believe it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:16 PM

With the success of the BNP in winning TWO seats in the European Parliament, the three main parties are prattling on YET AGAIN about "connecting with the people" and trotting out the usual tired worn out rhetoric about "fascists" "racists" etc, not daring to face the obvious fact that it was exactly their BETRAYAL of the British people that has led to the historic rise of the BNP!

When the BNP called for a halt to immigration they called them "fascists and racists."

Now EVERY party is prattling about the "need to do something about immigration" AND STILL DOING NOTHING!

When the BNP called for "British jobs for British workers" they called them "fascists and racists."

Then Gordon Brown stole that phrase from the BNP AND DID NOTHING about immigrants taking British jobs.

And how could he when UNITE was busy setting up recruiting agaencies abroad for immigrants to get those same British jobs Gordon Brown prattled on about being for the British?

When Nick Griffin warned about the growing Islamic threat he was labelled "fascist and racist" and the BNP labelled "Islamophobes" even though he actually warned that the gravest threat came from British born Muslims in Bradford - then 7/7 proved him absolutely right even though the media stll labelled the BNP "fascists and racists."

When he warned about the increasing sexual grooming of children by Asians and Muslims he was called a "fascist" and a "racist" and the police let these vile practices continue in the name of "commumity relations."

When the BNP revealed the expenses scandal (and yes, they were the first to reveal it - a fact the media lied about) they were studiously ignored by the media and the MPs filling their boots at the taxpayers expense at Troughminster!

EVERYTHING the BNP was first to bring to the public's attention was derided and defamed by the REAL fascists in our society: The MPs at westminster, and the controlled media who act as the propaganda arm of the government!

And when the BNP campaigned on behalf of the Ghurkas the media resorted to outright lies (fed by the Marxist "Searchlight" organisation who they trot out whenever a lie about the BNP has to be fabricated) that the BNP was against the Ghurkas, even going as far a printing a FAKE leaflet, produced by Searchlight, which was distributed by a full time employee of the so-called 'Tyneside and Wear Anti Fascist Association'!

And some Labour councils went totally against the law when they covered up BNP billboards in the days leading up to the European and local elections!

And that is not the mention the deliberate harassment and illegal arrest and detention of BNP members by the police in order to give the media another BNP bashing headline!


So who are the REAL fascists in Britain today - a perfectly legal political party or those who can only oppose it by lies, smears, intimidation, harrassment and outright violence?

Good night and The Best of British to you all.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:34 PM

Wanna know about the wonderful Andrew Brons? 'ere, 'ave a read! http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4179


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

Hey, DMR, either your posts are beoming more surreal by the minute, are your not a satiriast at all. Either way, moderators, can you ask DMR to actually become a member, he/she might be a guest who's stayed too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:02 PM

"With the success of the BNP in winning TWO seats in the European Parliament, the three main parties are prattling on YET AGAIN about "connecting with the people" and trotting out the usual tired worn out rhetoric about "fascists" "racists" etc, not daring to face the obvious fact that it was exactly their BETRAYAL of the British people that has led to the historic rise of the BNP!"

how many times do people have to tell you the ONLY REASON the bnp got any seats at all is because of the LOW TURNOUT, NOT because they won the right to be there.

"If you continually satirize and ridicule a certain viewpoint you are doing exactly the same thing as facism, in that you are making it impossible for anyone without a great degree of strength (i.e. learning to have no friends) to believe it."

have you heard or rather read anyone satirize or ridicule anyone on this thread ?

i doubt it unless it is over a small joke. we would never think that what the bnp stand for is something to joke about.

who are you guest guest guest? if you think you can insult those of us who have the courage to reveal ourselves, while you hide behind a GUEST name and expect us to respect you, you are kidding yourself.
come back under a name you will keep and identified with and i will listen to what you have to say. x x


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:02 PM

Oh Dear , Little Hawk, how many times must we argue this while fascists take advantage of our lack of action to harass etnic minorities.
   You cannot stop people airing their opininons in a democracy ( despite the fact that fascists have always sought to do this through violence and intimidation) NO, but you don't actualy have to provide them with a platform.
   Freedom of speech is for all. NO, a lie put about by fascists, we have always had the laws of Libel, Slander and Blasphemy, the Oficial Secrets Act, all sorts of laws against conspiracy, laws against causing a breech of the peace, inciting violence, racial hatred etc. Freedom TO is always second to Freedom FROM in any civilised society.
Please stop encouraging violence and hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Tony Day
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM

My attention has just been drawn to this thread which I have read with some alarm.

I share the view of those who would find it uncomfortable to be in the same room, especially a singaround, with someone who openly supports hatred towards my friends in that room, on the basis of the colour of their skin, their sexuality or where they were born.

For this reason I hope never to see or speak to the person concerned again.

Tony Day
Middle Bar Singer


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM

Perhaps how you present yourself in different places is an interesting reflection on the soul

Mudcat profile picture

Under the guise of they want to suppress the pictures

I guess we make choices as to how we present ourselves to the world.

Little Hawk - our understanding of liberalism is I think very different.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:51 PM

okay silly question coming up... why is my name in puplr and everyone elses is in blue?    i told you it was silly


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:21 PM

Profile says she is studying "AS law." Can someone tell me what AS law is?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM

bnp are rubbish, and if you vote for them or you are them you are rubbish as well.they are shit, really shit, they are racist, racist is wrong, they don't like black people, i do, i think they are ok.
and someone is saying they don't like gays or disableds, i am not gay but i am a disabled, [i am deaf], and some of my freinds is gay, they don't do know harm to anyone and are nice people, so wahts got to do with bnp then, ? [none of there bisiness!

bnp people are thick and ignorant,
MBS George-you are thick and ignoarant, and you are the most rubbish person i seen on mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:22 PM

Tug the Cox, I think you are either willfully misunderstanding me in order to score some bogus points that have no real basis...or you have a need to have something to get upset about....or you're honestly failing utterly to understand what I posted in the first place.

I have always been in favour of the civil laws we alreaady have in place such as "the laws of Libel, Slander, the Official Secrets Act (depending on what they're trying to hide and from whom...there are some secrets the general public ought to have had revealed to them by now); and I'm in favour of the laws against conspiracy, the laws against causing a breech of the peace, the laws againsts inciting violence, and the laws against inciting racial hatred etc..."

It is downright silly that you would think, on the basis of what I have posted here, that I would not support such laws. I do NOT feel that people have the right to use their freedom of speech to break any of the civil laws! I am also 100% against anyone harassing ethnic minorities...or other minorities. I'm against people harassing other people, period, no matter who is doing the harassing. I'm also against bullies. Same basic thing. God knows, I had to deal with a lot of them back when I was in school, because I was in a distinct minority at the time, let me tell you.

I said, simply, that (the right of) freedom of speech is for everyone in a democracy, not just for some...and I mean by that, that everyone who obeys the many normal civil laws that we all take for granted has the right to speak their opinions freely and openly. Duh! Why should I even have to explain this? It's bloody obvious. Only fascists and other dictatorial regimes will take away that universal right of freedom of speech from certain segments of the population, based solely on what their opinions are.

Get a grip before you also accuse me of supporting torture, bigamy, wife-stabbing, patricide, noodle-bending, cannibalism, and abuse of helpless farm animals...

Yeah, I know...you wish I and my opinions were as awful as you would like me to be so you can prove to yourself how awfully bad I am....(sigh)...but I'm not. You are engaging in a self-serving fantasy when it comes to that.

****

Nick - Okay, let's see then. What is your understanding of liberalism?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:19 AM

To get back to the OP's outing of her self. I don't think that her esteemed party leader is going to be any too pleased with her doing so. For a long time, Mr Griffin and his cohorts have been trying to winkle their way into the traditions of Britain, with their mis-appropriation of the flag of St George etc. (On one of their sites they show a Cotswold team dancing morris, and call it Rapper. They can't even get that right!!!)
And George has blown it for him. There is a group just started on Facebook called Folk against Fascism, run by Ruth Archer (Joan Crump of this parish and Sidmouth Fest artistic director), So go and join it.
As for MBSGeorge She should probably go somewhere else for her holidays this year...The Carribean would be apposite.
She'll get very bored at Sidmouth thats for sure.
PS I wonder if she's got any Leon Rosselson or Roy Baley CDs in her collection?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:10 AM

Great to see The Rt. Hon. Sir jOhn of 'Ull back with us.
Stick around fella, we miss you!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Dave Earl
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:38 AM

Seems that more Middle Bar Singers are voicing thier feelings in here.

Much as it saddens me to loose a friend it does seem that MBSGeorge has shot herself in the foot and made herself unwelcome in the Anchor.

If you're reading this thread George it is probably best if don't attend the Middle Bar Sessions in future - too many people will object unless you can find it in yourself to retract.

I didn't want to have to say this but I don't want to see bad feelings and did-harmony in the Middle Bar.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:29 AM

DMR,

These actions sound terrible.

Could you provide links or sources so that we can go and find out more about them?

An independant source would be useful so that you can show it isn't just BNP propaganda.

Thanks ...

... oh ... and the best of British ...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM

DML reader leaps to the defence of the BNP by trotting out the same hate disguised as fact that we've come to expect from their deluded members. I'd like to see a scrap of evidence to support a single one of the statements you make in your post DMR.* Post links to back up all those accusations and 'facts'.

Searchlight reveals much of the BNP's true nature in an article here.





* The odd thing is, DMR's rant is the same turgid propagandist bullshit he so professes to hate from the other parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

Back to the bottom of the page, and to the point a bit. On a van belonging to a firm of builders. "You've had the cowboys. Now try the Indians. J Singh and Sons" (Name may be wrong, but not the source.)

Hope you don't mind, Kat.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:32 AM

I have steeered clear of this thread, anything I would have to say would be so obvious it isn't worth saying. But now I would like to say, with Backwoodsman above, that it is great to see Sir jOhn back among us, and in a good cause.He has always been our most eloquent poster, and I would just like to back what he said 100%, there's nothing I could add to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:18 AM

Little Hawk wrote

Tug the Cox, I think you are either willfully misunderstanding me in order to score some bogus points that have no real basis...or you have a need to have something to get upset about....or you're honestly failing utterly to understand what I posted in the first place.

Probably the last option, but not intentionally, have PH' you. Cheers. Jeff


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: greensue
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:11 AM

I have read only the first 50 or so of the posts on this subject and totally agree with Little Hawk, How can all of you spitting fire and disgust hope to persuade a nieve girl that she is wrong. Those of you who will not talk to her, would ban her from singing with you and want to beat her up in the street, how does that show you up? How does it re educate her? All you needed to say was that you were supprised at her declaration, and would not have chosen that party to stand for yourselves. Oh and I have never heard her sing any of these racist songs that have been refered to. I shall continue to speak to her and listen to her singing.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:45 AM

Jeddy. Your name only appears in purple to you. We all see it as blue. Don't get paranoid though, I see my name in purple, you see it in blue.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:46 AM

From the 'Folk Against Facism' Facebook page:

"The UK folk scene is a welcoming and inclusive one...."

I'm not sayin' nuthin'.....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: greensue
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM

Gervaise Webb, sorry if i've misspelt your name, icant seem to flick backwards and forwards on these pages yet.
I do believe George will be around in August, please sit down with her and ask the questions personally. I for one would be interested. I have very little politics myself, but I do realise that the BNP is a hated organisation ( yes I do understand why)even though their modern political statements seem a lot gentler than the old ones. I wouldn't think of the right questions to ask.
I spend a lot of time in a wheelchair and so far she has not tried to push me off the pier.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM

"I spend a lot of time in a wheelchair and so far she has not tried to push me off the pier."

Probably because you're not black, Asian or Jewish.

Truth is, I can't see anyone who wants to beat her up on the street (which is what most anti-BNP people want to avoid and should be thundered against), but people are well within their rights to express their disgust and disapproval of the BNP. Any of us with black and Asian friends, or who have relatives that saw the holocaust at first hand and understand a little of the effect of that particular episode of history has had might well feel pretty strongly about the attitude of these people.

In Germany in the 1920s Nazism started as a movement of political dissent and ended up with an atrocity being committed that will take an age to recover from. You want reasons why people want to stop Griffin, the BNP and the ignorant fools or who vote for them?

There are 6 million reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

Someone up the thread named a black singer and morris dancer who frequents the Middle Bar (I won't name him again because I don't think he posts here and I would not want to embarrass him). How is he, or the people who like and respect him, meant to feel when there is someone in the room who openly represents a party calling for the voluntary, and ultimately involuntary, repatriation of everyone who isn't ethnically British?

yes, this man now represents Britain in Europe


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM

Well, If George wants to turn up at Sidmouth. Fine
After all it's a free country (!)
She can go where she likes.
Lucky her.
Shame that one can't say the same for the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Communists, Dissidents, et al, that didn't have that right in Nazi Germany in the 30's and 40's. (Not to mention the millions that were moved to work camps like Buchenwald and Auschwitz and Sobibor, and Belsen.........)
These people never had that right to freedom. Just Death.
So George, If you are reading this. I will be at Sidmouth. I will not enter a dialogue with you. I will send you to Coventry. (You know, that English city that your Lord and Master destroyed?)
Have a Lovely Summer.
Ralph
PS Yes and It's great to see jOhn of Hull back on line!!
Wonderful!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:04 AM

Quasimodo the White and the odious Nazi Brons have just been egged outside Parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM

Thanks to Mr Grundy for posting the You Tube Link.
In One and a half minutes, It states all that the bnp represent.

I Quote from Nick Griffin.
"This nonsensce that there were gas chambers is a total lie"
You couldn't make it up could you?
Hasn't he seen the films?
Oh so thousands of emaciated actors allowed themselves to be bulldozed into pits full of Lime for fun pretending to be dead? Yeah Right...
Beyond belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

a nieve girl

What in the name of Jesus Mary & Joseph is this? If you are attempting to refer to the BNP candidate, the phrase is "female fascist".
Naivety is imagining falsely that the BNP's political statements are "a lot gentler than the old ones". First re-educate yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:37 AM

The reason why the BNP's current statements are "a lot gentler than the old ones":

The BNP teaches the KKK how to "sell" their ideas

Tha's right - in his first few sentences, Nick Griffin says to the White Supremacists/KKK, "The British National Party isn't about selling out its ideas, which are your ideas too, but we are determined now to sell them..."

"Which are your ideas too." Think about that.

The party hasn't changed - it's repackaged the old ideas to make them more palatable to people like you, greensue. Please don't be apologists for them, or anyone who stands for office as their representative. Naivete is no excuse - the evidence is there for anyone who cares to look for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:15 AM

Here they are relaxing.

Great way to bring up your kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

AS and A2 Law


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:21 AM

ooops...forgot this..

" or those who can only oppose it by lies, smears, intimidation, harrassment and outright violence..."

Sounds EXACTLT like to BNP to me...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:29 AM

GEORGE, is that all your mind can come up wth? the same as you said at the start of this thread? i can see now why you think the bnp are the party for you!!!!!as non thinking people, you seem to have no idea as to how to answer these questions, so why are you sticking to your guns? i don't think anyone ever said that bloodymindedness was a virtue. you have dissapointed me more than you already had, which i thought was IMMPOSSIBLE.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM

hang on, someone is messin with me i could have sworn that the first post from george was just there, has someone deleted it or was i imagining things? i think i need help!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:08 PM

Subject: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: MBSGeorge - PM
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM

I expect some will wonder why I have decided to respond to the other BNP threads with this new one and tell everyone it is I who stood in Chippenham for the BNP. I wish to give people the choice to continue to be my friend or not.

As far as I'm concerened it shouldn't matter what my political views are. I am still the same me I was before people started to know. My views have not changed, people just know what they are now.

I can understand Mike not talking to me anymore as he is a cllr.

I can no more change the way I feel about things than the next person and if people no longer want to speak to me then I will understand but will of course be upset to lose some very good friends.

George


YOU MEAN THIS ONE?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM

yes that one. was it my imagination or was it there a miniute ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:26 PM

It's still there, on my screen...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

Geeze Louise! If this thread had legs it would be able to step right over the Atlantic Ocean in a single bound. (a lot of posts in a short time, I mean)

Got your PM, Tug the Cox. Thanks.

Sir jOhn - Hey! Great to see you posting again. Tell the parrot to quit swearing so much and go easy on the fig newtons. The neighbours are beginning to complain. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM

Daily Mail Reader....

Just to let you know....

There's an excellent double page spread about the BNP and what racist scum they are, followed by another article about them, in the....er.....Daily Mail, today.

Thought you might like to hear about it. If you'd like, I can type it out for you.

Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

A major demonstration, on Merseyside, against the BNP is being planned for the near future. At the moment I know no more than that, but I'll post further details as I get them.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:57 PM

Weirdly George got in touch with me privately. As she won't engage here and I don't choose to talk privately I thought I'd post it here.

>>That picture is more than 10 years old and I look totally different now.

You do. Who knows we might have stood next to each other in Sidmouth. Horrible thought.

Should your political views be ignored by your 'friends'. Sure they should. I dare say Harold Shipman was probably a pillar of the community (local doctor, smiling face etc etc) until the unfortunate fact that he killed off a large chunk of the community he served. Would I have stood next to him and sang a song and drank a beer and smiled and had fun? Strangely, no. Fred West and his wife were probably dab hands at playing spoons until some unfortunate things slipped out. Hitler could have probably been a great ukulele player if he hadn't got sidetracked.

I choose the company I keep. If latterly I discover that the person behaves or holds a view that is so loathsome as you do I can't see how I could possibly ignore it. We have choices.

I'm surprised that you aren't engaging on the thread that you started.

What you support is abhorrent in every possible way I can possibly conceive it and the almost total lack of support here to your coming out - apart from the expected random, nameless troll that usually hang round these type of threads - fills me with joy that most of the human race are fundamentally decent people regardless of race, creed or religion.

You were a good looking woman in that picture.

Your looks now reflect the ugliness your views. It was the point of my post as I'm sure you realise.

I'll post these on the thread as I have no interest in engaging with you privately.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:04 PM

Nick, in the total absence of any goodwill or mutual respect nothing useful can be achieved. You are demonstrating a total lack of goodwill and respect toward someone who sent you a PM.

You should not print the text of someone else's PM in a public forum, and you should have the decency to respond to a PM if someone sends you one, regardless of their political views.

I don't judge people on their beliefs (political or otherwise)...I judge them on their personal conduct. Their personal conduct toward others is the best and only reliable indication of their character.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:06 PM

Little Hawk

I did respond to her privately and also told her of my intentions.

I can live with myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

Could somebody tell me who MBS George is. I've no wish to deprive her of the right to sing, or whatever it is she does. But I would wish to reserve the right to walk out.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:11 PM

georgina dale[nee simmons]


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:12 PM

mbs means 'middle bar singer'


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

This is gonna throw a real damper on "Darkie Day", huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:17 PM

Okay then, Nick. Fair enough.

*****

Fred - I might walk out if I really didn't like the song, I guess. I'd go to the kitchen and make myself some tea. But I'd come back for the next song. I have done that on occasion at a song circle, because I find some songs just downright annoying.

On the other hand, if she sang the song well and I liked it...I'd stay and listen. What the hell do I care what political party she belongs to? A song circle isn't about fighting over politics, it's about playing music.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM

Little Hawk

The opposite also applies. If you post something in an open forum I respond to it in an open forum. I wouldn't post my reply as a private message.

I could send this to you privately but engage at the same level. If you send me a PM I'll reply to you as a PM. If you post on here and engage in conversation we stay here unless we bore the bits off people or are asked to go elsewhere.

Liberalism, free speech and the defence of liberty in all it's senses are interesting bedfellows but I don't think are the subject of this thread. If you want to start one I'll happily chat about it.

If the triumph of liberal thinking is to allow and encourage the spread of views that are diametrically opposed to the freedoms that liberalism seeks then that is a little confusing to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM

Yeah. Nothing like a rousing chorus of "Die Fahne hoch".


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:22 PM

Youtube--BNP song


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:26 PM

I posted this a couple of days ago, Little Hawk, but obviously you skipped right over it. So I'll post it again.
You say, ". . . what I judge individuals on is their character and their personal behaviour...not their beliefs."

But a person's character is based on their beliefs. Is it all right to cheat and steal? Some people think so!

Is it all right to deny someone their civil rights? There are groups of people out there trying to do that right now!

Is it all right to ghettoize and/or slaughter whole ethnic groups? That's exactly what some people have done and still want to do!!

A person's beliefs are an integral part of their character. And people ACT on their beliefs, Little Hawk.
I repeat: People ACT on their beliefs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:43 PM

People may or may not act on their beliefs, Don. Many do not act on their beliefs, they just talk. They blow off steam. When they have an anti-social belief, however, and DO act on it, then I judge them by their actions, not by their beliefs.

This is what the police also do in a free society. They do not prosecute people for having a belief (except in a dictatorship). They prosecute them for taking actions that are unlawful.

You keep asking me rhetorically if it's all right for people to take negative actions (based on some beliefs they have). No, of course it's not all right, and I never said it was.

I said that I judge them by their actions. Period.

I am not a member of the Spanish Inquisition or the Gestapo or the KGB. I do not arrest, condemn, and otherwise persecute people on the basis of their stated beliefs. If their stated beliefs worry me, then I may watch them closely...and the moment they DO commit unlawful actions, I would charge them for those actions.

The law is meant to control actions, not beliefs. If you want to control beliefs, that's mind control. If you are in favor of mind control, then you must be eager for some Big Brother to take over and make society "safe" for the "good" people such as yourself (those who see it your way). I wish you no luck in such an endeavour.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:46 PM

This is rather entertaining, under the circumstances...from their 'comments' page..

Taken from here



Please note before posting comments:-

We receive a large volume of comments and not all will be published. The British National Party reserves the right to reject comments for reasons such as:

a. Encourages illegal activity.
b. Legal risk (libel/defamation/other).
c. Threatening or abusive tone (including personal attacks, racism, sexism, bias against age)
d. Contains or links to copyright material.
e. Foul language.
f. Spamming.
g. Excessive length.
h. Is very off-topic from the original discussion.

Moderation is applied to maintain standards, and the moderators decisons are final.

nb - Opinions expressed here are those of the writers and do not reflect those of the British National Party. The British National Party accepts no responsibility legal or otherwise for their accuracy.

Many thanks for your support - Web Team


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:51 PM

Goodness, but that Youtube clip is scary, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:56 PM

Sounds like a sensible set of rules for any forum or "comments" page to me, Lizzie.

What if we tried that here? We'd virtually ALL have to alter our posting habits from time to time, wouldn't we? ;-D

What if the political talking heads on TV stopped interrupting others in debate constantly and stopped trying to shout others down, and instead waited calmly to present their own views when their turn came? What if they all acted like grownups for a change?

So many hypotheticals....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:56 PM

"Could somebody tell me who MBS George is. I've no wish to deprive her of the right to sing, or whatever it is she does. But I would wish to reserve the right to walk out."

Why should you have to walk out? You have done nothing wrong!

An alternative is just to have a loud conversation with somebody sitting next to you about how she supports the BNP and is looking for support to advance her career as a BNP politician, advancing their views and trying to convince people to blame foreigners and non whites for their ills..

She should be the one to feel she has to walk out.


LH,


Don is absolutely 100% right on this.


The fact that somebody would hook up with the BNP, let alone stand as a BNP candidate in an election tells you plenty about their character.


As I have said before, some mothers are forced to accept that their children have turned into criminals.

They may love their kids and want the best for them, but they may have to admit that their children should not be allowed into society.


MBSGeorge, may be loved by her friends, but as you can see they have painfully had to swallow and digest the fact that their friend is someone who is an active campaigning member of a white supremacist group with a history of violence whose whole raison d'etre is to blame and victimize people whose skin colour does not fit. people whose sexuality does not fit and people who are disabled.

In other words, to stoke up resentment and hatred agains the most vulnerable in society.


Someone like this is a danger to society and should be challenged every time she has an audience rather than allow her to endear herself to any potential supporters and then once she has their trust, infect them with her malignant ideas about people that don't fit in her utopia.

Her Utopia is our hell - be under no illusions.

You can see it, I can see it, she knows as much as we do and yet she SUPPORTS it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:05 PM

Youtube--BNP song
Hmm - maybe a candidate for a standing chorus in the Middle Bar. Not!
Watching Goering trying to mouth the words, I was reminded of John Redwood's attempt to sing Hen Gwlad fy Nhadau at some Tory do in Wales once - equally risible.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:05 PM

Until she has done something harmful or behaved badly to people, Lox, I have no problem with her.

If extreme self-righteousness were gold bullion, there are a bunch of you here who could retire immediately, buy yourself an island and a yacht in the Mediterranean, and entertain people like Paris Hilton and the Agha Khan for the rest of your lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:10 PM

Now, mind, I have a song circle to go to tonight. I must be on my way soon. Carry on in my absence by all means and see if you can get it to 300 posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:15 PM

I dunno - for some people the mere fact that the BNP is present in their neighbourhood is enough to fill them with fear and unease and that, to me, is harm.

But I'm still waiting to hear George's version of events, and her answer to some of the points made here. For someone who was willing to stick her name on a ballot paper and stand for the county council in the name of the BNP, she does seems strangely shy when it comes to leaping to its defence.

I know one shouldn't make assumptions, but to me silence signifies assent - in that she knows and understands what the BNP stands for, and assents to that. Bloody sad, really. It's easy to loathe a pasty-faced, strutting buffoon like Nick Griffin, but when it's someone you've actually met, it's not loathing; it's bafflement and a something akin to pity. What can have f*cked someone's life up so much that they see the BNP as something worth clinging to?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:15 PM

"Until she has done something harmful or behaved badly to people, Lox, I have no problem with her."

By aligning herself with an organization that espouses racial discrimination and perpetrates violence against others, she has behaved badly and has done something harmful. Some white people of British heritage may not think so but I'll bet a lot of people who don't share that heritage do.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:17 PM

Little hawk

So as I understand.

I write an inflammatory piece encouraging racism, acts of violence and hatred against groups in society. Some mindless moron reads this goes out and kills someone fired up by the ideas I have stirred up in his mind. He has done something so is bad. I on the other hand have no responsibility because I haven't done anything. That is ridiculous. (And yes it would be difficult to prove causality etc etc)

The pen is pretty mighty you know.

Did Hitler actually physically kill anyone? Does that make him blamless if he didn't actually DO anything?

I'm not sure most people would take that view.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM

hello again all, i thought that song was very moving and nearly joined in, but i don't know the words!!!!!!   yeah right.

so everyone who doesn't think that politics and music should not be confused were you singing?????????????????

i went to that link for the bnp forum and wrote a message asking for the truth about them but was too cowardly to post it as i am afraid of being in contact and they might start emailing me.   

i wanted to know how and why they supported them.

little hawk,why can't you see that in every historical revolt or revolution that ever was started becuse a few people got together and discussed their dreams and goals for, in thier minds a better way. it always starts that way, however it very rarely stays that way. which is why we are trying to tell the truth about the bnp now.

i have always said that freedom of speech and thought is a wonderful thing ONLY as long as the information you have been given to base your decision on is the TRUTH and full of evidence to support it. especially when it comes to politics.

right where is that link again as i feel the need for a singalong.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:24 PM

""If extreme self-righteousness were gold bullion, there are a bunch of you here who could retire immediately, buy yourself an island and a yacht in the Mediterranean, and entertain people like Paris Hilton and the Agha Khan for the rest of your lives.""

And if extreme smug , supercilious, pomposity were gold bullion YOU could finance the whole lot out of petty cash, LH.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:31 PM

"If extreme self-righteousness were gold bullion"

If it were anything to do with judgementalism then you'd be right.

But it ain't.


Its very simple - you don't have a clue who the BNP are or what they're about.

I do.

I've drunk in their pubs and witnessed them in action.

She is a menber of their Gang.

And be under no illusions, this is a Gang not a political party.

They want power and they sell themselve to the public for votes, but they are a gang.

If you come to the UK I'll take you where you can find them and witness them.

Then when you go over to them to talk with them and 'connect' I'll call the police and an ambulance and hope that they get there before you are permanently disfigured.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: frogprince
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:42 PM

Ah..Little Hawk?

I once moved into a small apartment building in Chicago, and soon found out about an interesting situation. One of the residents on my floor was, to put it in precise clinical terms, crazy as a junkyard dog. He would walk out in the hall at 2 or 3 AM, and yell interesting things. Part of one tirade I believe I can still quote just about exactly:
"I have the power of God in me, and I'm going to kill someone, and nobody will be able to do anything about it, because you don't mess with God".

Now I didn't mind that, because he hadn't killed anyone yet; he was just expressing himself...

(Before anyone could get anything done, some of his relatives happened to drop by to visit, and they got him committed).


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

I'm really saddened to read about George's statement and the feelings that have been stirred up here. I'm certain she's walking the wrong track and hope that in time, she will realise this and understand how dreadful her political choice has been. GreenSue has suggested that she may be 'naiive', which could quite easily be the case given George's youth.

George, could you please consider dropping the 'MBS' prefix of your MudCat handle? I'm sure that other Middle Bar Singers will agree with me that MBS have no wish to be associated with your beliefs at this time and continuing to use the prefix might suggest that we condone your stance.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:46 PM

Gas, she hasn't been back to 'defend' her beliefs or choices.....and I don't think she will. You may have to email her.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: irishenglish
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:50 PM

Boy things get interesting when you stop coming on here. In reading this thread I'd like to put my two cents in. Seems to me other than a few trolls, lurkers, stragglers, whatever, by and large everyone here on mudcat thinks the BNP abhorrent, however they mask their language in 2009 (or use it right out in the open). Seems to me to be some question as to the right of the candidate to post on here. Seems to be also that some on here think that this forum should be all inclusive to every view point, regardless of its touchiness as subject matter. Well in the sense that this is a forum, I suppose in a way thats true. However, I get tired of the, I want to hear them speak as long as they are here argument, and I'll make up my mind from there. Most of us know exactly what the BNP stands for, there is little grey matter in this discussion, there is NOTHING I would wish to hear from anyone who is a supporter or someone seeking office on that ticket. I have made up my mind in other words, as have a lot of very fine people on this forum. Why do we have to be subjected to another lesson in tolerance on how to discuss this subject matter when the very point of the thread is about an individual, and a party that is in fact intolerant. I'm paraphrasing Eddie Izzard here when I say, I don't need to talk with you, cos you're a stupid racist bastard, why would I bother.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:51 PM

Oh, I think she's probably watching this Sorcha. If she isn't, there are family and people close to her who are, but thanks for the thought!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:02 PM

I don't take Little Hawk seriously because I believe that if he were to mysteriously become Black for at least one day and if he were to meet up with some BNPers, he'd probably shyt on himself out of fear.

As it is, Little Hawk can "philosophize" from the comfort of his White skin* and he can hold forth in his self-righteous way in Canada where he is far removed from the BNP.

It seems to me that it takes more courage to speak out against the BNP in Britain than in Canada-or the USA although it doesn't mean that there are no hate groups in those nations.

*While I believe that there is some comfort that white skin affords a person in interactions with the BNP, I understand from my reading that that group (excuse me-that gang) also hates those White people who are gay, and/or disabled, and/or not from Western Europe. And similarly to the KKK the BNP also probably hates Whites who believe that people should be treated the same without regard for race, religion, sexual orientation etc. So just because someone is White doesn't mean that they would not be the target of the BNP's hatred and violence. But if you're non-White, well we know how the BNP feels about us.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:05 PM

I wonder how LH would react if I started a thread (purely about freedom of speech, you understand) asserting that children are sexual creatures and should have the right and liberty to choose to enter into physical sexual relations with adults.

I don't mean "children" under 21 (some US states) or under 16 (UK) or 15, 14, 13, or 12, but say 2, or 3.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:30 PM

"The law is meant to control actions, not beliefs." Fair enough, Little Hawk. BUT—

I am NOT saying that anyone should try to regulate anyone else's beliefs. What I am saying is that if someone has expressed the belief that the Holocaust never happened, or that Blacks should be rounded up and sent back to Africa, or people who are physically or mentally disable should be euthanized (and someone did actually say that to me once as I stood there leaning on my aluminum forearm crutches!), then I don't see how I could ever regard them as a friend. They have revealed a very ugly aspect of their character, and—frankly—I would take what they say as a warning that if they ever got the power, they would do exactly what they say.

That is what I'm saying.

And remember:   other people judge you by the friends you keep. And not without good reason.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:52 PM

One of the most disturbing things to note about the current situation, that should give cause for great concern and which sends a shiver of real fear down my spine and gives me a feeling of slight nausea is that as MEP's, the BNP are entitled to equal representation in the media with other elected parties.

As a result, we are now seeing their ugly faces all over the papers and TV in a way that we never have before and we have to endure their mendacity on the nightly news.

Secondly, now that they can claim expenses and are paid a salary, our taxes are being used to fund them.

Thirdly, they are enitled to demand protection from the EU which also comes out of our pocket.

Fourthly, each MEP is entitled to employ his 'team' of researchers etc ...

... noticed the band of "thick set men" in Griffins entourage? (as described by the BBC) - how much are we paying them?

we've given a free pass to the thugs into the EU parliament, never mind their leaders.

In the thirties, the brown shirts lined the walls of the reichstag and hissed whenever oppopnents of the Nazi party tried to speak.

Legitimate Nazi thugs in parliament again?

fair enough, they only have 2 seats, and Britain will not make the same mistake next time around, but it does demonstrate how quickly things like this could get out of control if there was a genuine groundswell of support.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM

Little Hawk

People may or may not act on their beliefs, Don. Many do not act on their beliefs, they just talk. They blow off steam. When they have an anti-social belief, however, and DO act on it, then I judge them by their actions, not by their beliefs.

I understand and admire your liberal point of view but you don't seem to realise that the BNP are very, very nasty people indeed. They are not just a group who have views we disagree with; they are racist thugs. They DO act on their beliefs to the extent of pushing shit through letter boxes, firebombing mosques, beating up opponents on the street and hurling racial abuse. Many of their leading figures, including Nick Griffin, have convictions for incitement to racial hatred and racially motivated violence. MBSGeorge has chosen to align herself with this rabble. Cllr, who started the "BNP: What would you do?" thread is "quite conservative" (he is an elected councillor for the Conservative party). He feels "shocked and betrayed" because someone he regarded as a friend chose to stand as a BNP candidate.

It is the stated policy of the BNP to use British traditions to promote their cause. Folk music has enough trouble promoting its image to the public without that millstone around its neck. That is why people would feel uncomfortable sharing a session with George Dale.

She has to choose who her friends are.

Bryan Creer


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 09:55 PM

Personally, I think it's the "Locust Effect." When the population becomes to concentrated, the locusts swarm and become destructive. Thin them out, and they become ordinary grasshoppers.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:43 PM

Riginslinger,why do you keep going on about over population?what can we do about it? sending people 'back home' wouldn't help, it would only cause more polution. closing the boarders wouldn't help, there would still be the same number of people. should every country follow china in the 1 baby rule?

sorry people for going off thread, but since riginslinger just won't give up and start another thread then i shall have to ask him/her here.

what are we to do about the poorer countries, who keep producing children even when they cannot feed the ones they already have?

afrika for example, there was a story on comic relief of a 1 year old girl who had been sexually abused because the local witch doctor told him that was how to get rid of H.I.V       how do you tell someone who would do that, that if they had access to condoms they would never have caught H.I.V   in the first place. to him a bit of rubber would have made no sense.


do you not think that when we get hurricanes or earthquakes, etc. that that is mother natures way of culling the population. and by the way my heart goes out to anyone who has lost someone in one of those sorts of instances,i am not being heartless.


right now that i have completely gone off point. i shall ask that rigs, either pm s me or start another thread and i wil join him there, sorry if you are female.

i still cannot understand what this has to do with the bnp or immigration as the bnp don't really want to send 'them' back home they would rather we shot 'them' so 'they' we never be a threat to them in the future.

on that cheery note i will say goodnight. x x


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:41 AM

Please remember that you may post at Mudcat under only one identity. Multiple identities are not allowed, and resulted in several posts being deleted from this thread.
I realize that this is a very controversial subject, but please try to be civil.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 02:49 AM

Walking out is counter-productive. A much more effective protest is to just turn your back in silence.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:37 AM

"When they have an anti-social belief, however, and DO act on it, then I judge them by their actions, not by their beliefs."

They are acting on their beliefs LH - they are advocating racism and discrimination and denying the holocaust and the place in society of many of my friends and countrymen.

These people must be shouted down. They weren't in pre-war Germany and that led to the holocaust, they weren't in the US in the middle of last century and they lynched innocent people on the basis of their skin colour.


Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.


This is very serious, and we will not allow these people to hijack our music and culture to achieve heir abhorrent ends. This is not happening here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:58 AM

I've been watching this thread with interest, waiting to see some response from George that would even begin to address the issues involved.
What's happening is a bit like the egging of Nick Griffin yesterday - I can see why people who don't know much or anything about the BNP might conclude that Nick and George are being picked on by opponents of free speech and that they're some kind of victim in all of this.

George, your choice of a political party to represent is not just a reflex or allergic reaction and it's a total cop-out to say you can't help what you feel. You can help what you do, and you can inform what you think. At least one BNP candidate in the elections was reported as changing her mind before the voting started because she realised she'd been taken in by the lies. You could have done the same.

Trouble is, I like my friends to have working brains, consciences and hearts. I've been doing some family history recently and have gone back over 300 years without finding anyone who wasn't from these islands, which means the BNP should be representing me and my family. They don't and I totally abhor what they say and do. Anyone with half a grain of intelligence can see how our culture, economics and civilisation have been enriched by immigration over the centuries. So why have you chosen to align yourself with a nasty, racist, tunnel-vision party led by unprincipled men? Please explain so we can try to understand even if we need to keep our distance from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:12 AM

Well, it seems that someone is or has been posting as "Richard Bridge" and/or "Hoff Bridge" with loathsome support for the BNP and abuse for opponents on Digg and on Facebook.

It isn't me.

That is an action. And it tells you quite a lot about the BNP doesn'tit?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:45 AM

"People may or may not act on their beliefs, Don. Many do not act on their beliefs, they just talk."

This is the other thing.

George doesn't just talk.

She decided to do something about it.

She decided to run for office.


That's how much she wanted Blacks, Asians, Gays and the disabled out of her life.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:25 AM

The problem with shouting your views is that people shout back.
Talking and listening is quite a lot harder.
And politicians who don't shout feel they are not heard.

George - politics is not for the faint-hearted the agro come with the territory, and rightly so. Opinionated people soon find other opinionated people have opinions too.

FWIW my politcal colour is that of pure un-adulterated water (where found). I see through them.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM

"Personally, I think it's the "Locust Effect." When the population becomes to concentrated, the locusts swarm and become destructive. Thin them out, and they become ordinary grasshoppers."

Hitler had the same idea, it was called the holocaust......


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

Oh, a locust (anag)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:42 PM

Judging by his printing of a personal message above and his accompanying remarks to that personal message, I would rather spend some time in conversation with Miss Dale regardless of her politics, than with member Nick.

Little Hawk as usual is perfectly correct...freedom of speach is a thousand times more important than any political party or set of political opinions, which in a couple of years will have been moulded into something completely different.

As I said upthread Blair's actions caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands, yet most "liberals" would just love to see him back leading the "Labour" Party and the country. In comparison, how many deaths do you think the tinpot dictators of the BNP will be responsible for! For Christ sake try to develop a sense of proportion.

But why worry eh? there's nothing the Mudcats like better than a good witch hunt :0), especially if the witch is a woman!

Wouldn't you all be better spending a while composing a defence of "multiculturalism" in the UK?.......Naw that could be a bit tricky and not half as much fun.

Somebody up above mentioned belonging to the Anti Nazi League, as was I and a member of the CP to boot!   It proved nothing simply making people more entrenched in their views and shedding a lot of blood in the process.

It will take many generations to make this society good, fair and fulfilling and none of these will be achieved by the actions of the "liberals" on this thread, as far as I can see.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM

Meanwhile back on the relevancy track...

Nick Griffin Gets Paranoid.
from ITN News.

BNP leader Nick Griffin has urged police to "get a grip" of protesters who pelted him with eggs and targeted two press conferences.

The British National Party boss and his MEPs were forced to abandon their first joint press conference after an attack on College Green in Westminster on Tuesday.

Eggs were thrown by protesters angry at the far-right party's success in the European elections which saw seats for Mr Griffin and Andrew Brons.

Two people were hospitalised during the melee as protesters chanted: "Off our streets, Nazi scum" and threw eggs at Mr Griffin before he was bundled into a car by bodyguards.

Police said they are investigating allegations of common assault and a road collision after organisers Unite Against Fascism claimed Mr Griffin's security guards punched and kicked demonstrators in scuffles as they escorted him away.

Mr Griffin described the protesters as "far-left thugs" who had "resorted to violence" in defiance of the democratic process.

After further demos when he held a press conference in a Manchester pub earlier, Mr Griffin said: "There wasn't a huge police presence yesterday. The police let the mob run wild.

"I think it's very sad that a hostile mob which is partly paid for by taxpayers and backed by Labour and the Conservatives is allowed to get away with mob violence on the streets of Britain in 2009.

"I've got to go and visit constituents in places like Preston and Andrew Brons has to go to places like Bradford. The police need to get a grip on these people and stop them throwing eggs and bricks."

He added: "Like us or not we are a democratic party elected by people who have specific concerns they think we will address properly."

partly paid for by taxpayers, you say, Nick?

Wasn't it your sort who also stuck that label on the anti-Vietnam War protesters, on the anti -nuclear activists etc.....
Get a new script writer for godsake, you REALLY are getting boring!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:49 PM

I can't help it. Seeing all the messages telling (the other) George where to go and so on, feels weird and pseudo-personal. So I will be using my first name in its original Greek from now on.

And the first one to paraphrase it to "yoghurt" gets struck off my Christmas list...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:02 PM

George doesn't just talk.
She decided to do something about it.
She decided to run for office.
That's how much she wanted Blacks, Asians, Gays and the disabled out of her life.


Let's not forget the hidden agenda too. They are not too fond of Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM

akenaton,
there is a slight difference between the bnp and those of our politicians who wanted us to go to war. the conservatives and labour we all know and we also know they will ignore our wishes and do what they please, however, i cannot think of one instance when lets say tony blair or any of the major politiacans went out on the street and caused a race riot, nor do they deny the holocaust, nor indeed do they say that all blacks, gays, and other 'undesirables, have no right taking our resourses and money, that in fact they should not even be in this country.

as for the wars in iraq and afganistan, i do not agree that we should have gone in, quite so quickly, but do feel that it is our duty to defend the freedoms of others around the world, it would have been better for everyone if we had done the job properly in the first place maybe then we wouldn't have had the terrible bloodshed we have had, although anyone with half a brain can see that MOST of that bloodshed is from iraq people on iraq people( i would have put the ie on the end but it didn't look right).

back on point, the bnp wouldn't have gone in to liberate iraq, they would like to nuke them and wipe them off the face of the planet, if you think that is better, that is your' right but don't expect me to just sit and meekly listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

"Multiple identities are not allowed,"

Telol that to the fucking BNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:30 PM

akenaton

what an interesting post

>>Judging by his printing of a personal message above and his accompanying remarks to that personal message, I would rather spend some time in conversation with Miss Dale regardless of her politics, than with member Nick.

It was fairly obvious that she was a lot younger then (I'll live with 10 years if she said it was so - I always like to see the good side of people) - I don't think that what I quoted was a really startling revelation. You could see it was the same person. As I said to Joe when he deleted the posts after complaints. Was I wrong to post a link to a picture that exists on Mudcat and compare it to one posted as a promotional shot for the candidadate for the BNP which you can find on the internet (in many places) and the local media? Especially when the person comes on here to promote their candidacy.

Am I cruel to point out that she has not aged gracefully and that her views are really shitty? I think you and Little Hawk could appreciate from a freedom of speech position (2 e's by the way) that my position is as jusitifiable as hers. And at least I have the wherewithal not to run from dialogue and hide behind 'forum etiquette' and private messages.

Morally you have to decide whether forum etiquette or racial hatred is a greater evil. You know my position on that.

I think it more interesting that she sent it to me as a PM rather than engage here - and then the complaints come in. It's a little pathetic I feel.

akenaton if you'd rather chat to someone from the BNP on a principle of free speeech than me I can promise you I ain't going to lose any sleep.

What is free speech about? It is the freedom to express your views to influence people and potentially change things. Otherwise it is meaningless. THAT is what the principle is about and was always fought for.

>>Little Hawk as usual is perfectly correct...freedom of speach is a thousand times more important than any political party or set of political opinions, which in a couple of years will have been moulded into something completely different.

PERFECTLY CORRECT AS USUAL. You are not a FOLLOWER are you?

It's a joke albeit a cruel one.

>>As I said upthread Blair's actions caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands, yet most "liberals" would just love to see him back leading the "Labour" Party and the country. In comparison, how many deaths do you think the tinpot dictators of the BNP will be responsible for! For Christ sake try to develop a sense of proportion.

What has Tony Blair got to do with liberalism (or the labour party for that matter - Keir Hardie must have had some sleepless nights)? I think you misread the political climate of the UK. I think it more likely that Margaret Thatcher in her dotage would be elected.

>>But why worry eh? there's nothing the Mudcats like better than a good witch hunt :0), especially if the witch is a woman!

? Is this a personal thing? You can't beat a good chip. Would you like one for the other shoulder? This has nothing to with gender. It is about fascist views and the people who support them.

>>Wouldn't you all be better spending a while composing a defence of "multiculturalism" in the UK?.......Naw that could be a bit tricky and not half as much fun.

I could do that.

Are you racially pure? What race? What purity?

>>Somebody up above mentioned belonging to the Anti Nazi League, as was I and a member of the CP to boot!   It proved nothing simply making people more entrenched in their views and shedding a lot of blood in the process.

>>It will take many generations to make this society good, fair and fulfilling and none of these will be achieved by the actions of the "liberals" on this thread, as far as I can see.

I sense you have given up and joined the other side. You couldn't change people's views so you joined the racists - upholding the freedom of people to spout hatred rather than fighting for the freedoms of people who try to fight against stuff like that.

Sure I'm a liberal. It doesn't have inverted commas around it in my world.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:45 PM

akenaton

Having had a look at a sample of you rposts I think you are not being quite straight with me.

I think you like her politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:09 PM

I am sorry to disagree with you ake, but talking nicely to the bnp reminds me rather of the owl who sat down to dine with the lion..

All societies have had restrictions on what the populace are allowed to own, do, and say. The question is where to draw the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:17 AM

Someday the lion will lay down with the lamb--but one of 'em won't get a very good night's sleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: fiddler
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:15 AM

Does the absence of said woman from this thread mean she has stirred up a hornets nest - and has now walked away.

We are all debating and getting very very het up (in my case) but meanwhile she sits at home totally unaware or not even bothered or laughing - comfortable in her own self righteous position that she is right and leaves us to sort ourselves out.

The debate is good and has been productive - we now have the Folk Against Fascism group on Facebook. With members on the other side of the world too!

We have some members of this forum on there and offering to donate funds for the cause.

I am seriously thinking about singing again - one forum suggested politics and folk should not be linked - but they always have - I started with protest songs way way back - I may return. It is about time I did.

Sorry Yorgos that you feel the need to change you handle - but good - we should make an effort to call folk by their given name. I just hate the reason you had to do it.

Andy


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:12 AM

From today's news:

"An elderly white supremacist with a history of anti-Semitic tirades has opened fire inside the national Holocaust Memorial Museum, fatally wounding a security guard before being shot by return fire."

An indication of why we need to deny the fascists a platform for their views at every opportunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:13 AM

If a lion lays, what do the eggs look like?

There are two different and distinct verbs: to lay and to lie. The former is transitive and the latter intransitive. They mean different things. Snarl.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:16 AM

"We are all debating and getting very very het up"

Me too.

And well done to all of us.

Debate like this is healthy, informative and thought provoking and an indicator of how most peoples consciences are switched on and their intelligence well and truly active and engaged with an extremely important issue.

So what if George isn't posting.

There will be some posts like those from Ake who resent not being allowed to blame foreigners for unemployment even when they are shown that the facts do not support that view.

And there will be rigs repetetive mantra of 'the end of the world is nigh - unless we do something about immigration'

and we can expect criticisms like "oh you're just a PC liberal" and comments about Kumbaya etc, but there will be nothing of substance, just reactionary bitterness.

George isn't posting because she hasn't a leg to stand on.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:21 AM

"There are two different and distinct verbs: to lay and to lie. The former is transitive and the latter intransitive."

So if I get laid, is that transitive or intransitive?



... She was a good lay, but she was only transitive ... and now i miss her ...

... or does that mean a good lay must be a transvestite ...


You see why I can't be bothered with good grammer ...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:25 AM

Lol!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:35 AM

Anyway, I think the eggs were thrown at Nick Griffin ...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Dudfoot
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:45 AM

I suspect he didn't mind the whites.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:41 AM

Hope they were brown eggs.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

Unfortunately these days there seems to be no difference between "discriminating between" and "discriminating against", so that it is now difficult to use descriptive language about a person without being considered 'racist'.
For that reason, any general discussion of the subjects of immigration, or ethnic integration, tends to become clouded immediately with claims of racism. For this reason (it seems) the major UK parliamentary parties avoid raising these questions. It is this unwillingness to appear to recognise any difference which allows the BNP to say that no-one else is doing anything about immigration/integration.

Azizi raises the matter of how Christians should view this. It was there even in Christ's time. The people of Samaria were considered 'outsiders' and not the equal of the local peoples. Jesus highlights this in the parable of "The Good Samaritan" pointing out that this member of a 'lesser' people did the right thing whilst the Priests & Levites (the 'great & the good' of the local people) passed by on the other side.

How little things change!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM

"Multiple identities are not allowed,"

Telol that to the fucking BNP.

You got that right!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

"I am sorry to disagree with you ake, but talking nicely to the bnp reminds me rather of the owl who sat down to dine with the lion.."

I've already spoken to BNP members......It's my choice and my choice alone


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

Lox, in your example the verb is transitive.

X laid you.
Subject, verb, object.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 PM

lay versus lie- in practice, isn't that difficult.
1. Hen lays egg
1. Hens lay eggs
1. I lay something (down)


2. Dog lies (down)
2. Dogs lie (down)
2. Humans lie (often)
2. As I was lying (expository)
2. As I was lying (confessional)


3. Hens laid 10 eggs (yesterday)
3. I laid something down (and forgot where I put it)
3. My speech laid an egg (a big zero)

Any more? Like Richard B, the casual misuse bothers me, but I've about given up on it. As character flaws go, it's not a real biggie.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:21 PM

Is this an English class or a thread dedicated to the BNP and what can be done about them?

Personally I don't care how you write it as long as it can be understood and the idea is gotten across.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM

What goes around comes around, Rifleman. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

Good grammar has nothing to do with class.

LTS

Oh... 300!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:26 PM

Hello Richard, as I think you understand, the society I described hopefully in my last post can never be achieved without radical surgery to what we have at present and the impediment to that radical surgery is not the BNP, but the Quixotic "Liberals" fighting stupid battles against "windbags"

The BNP are sad folks who will never influence many as long as we retain some sense of reason...they are a fringe group who are not worth the 300 posts sent in to this thread.
There are many important issues to be addressed before we see an end to the evils of this system but the rise and fall of the British National Party is not one of them.

By the way for anyone who is interested, I have absolutely no interest in, or use for any form of racism, but my opinions on racism do not blind me to the fact that "multiculturalism" as we see it practiced in the UK is a fucking joke!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM

"Good grammar has nothing to do with class.
so you didn't sit in class and learn English then? Lucky you....my parents couldn't afford private tutors.

"What goes around comes around...
I've always felt that this is quite one of the most redundant phrases to ever emerge.

Now back to FAR more important things..

"I have absolutely no interest in, or use for any form of racism!"

This was the favourite phrase of someone I once knew, turned out the person was one of the most racist human beings I've ever crossed paths with, so you'll forgive me, I'm sure, if I feel somewhat cynical about your claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM

I really don't give a flying fuck what you think rifleman, so don't beat yourself up too much!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:07 PM

I don't beat myself up at all, and if you can't handle criticism, you don't belong here...oh and I do believe I was right, your anger over such a little thing is waaayyyy out of proportion which was what I said to the aforementioned acquaintance when they first of all , vetry angrily, denied being racist


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM

What goes around comes around, goes around, comes around, goes around...

Yep. Redundant. :)

What I really meant was: Hang on. The subject will be back.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:07 PM

Richard,

you haven't answered the most important question ...

... who came first ...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:33 PM

Rifleman....don't flatter yourself, very few people have seen me angry. Not even newbies with a posting history of 450, who tell me I should not be using this forum,especially when most of the posts consist of "one liners".

Why don't you stop shouting and try a little light reading?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:33 PM

The chicken, naturally.

But the grammar questin is not wholly a sideshow. The BNP is the aspiration of some of the ignorant to rule without learning.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM

And the definitive answer is:-

THE HEN

It's the very foolish theory Of some very foolish men
That the egg is just the hen's way To make another hen.
That's what I hear them say But I differ, sir, to beg;
The hen, sir, is the egg's way To make another egg.

The egg's the main event; the hen's A temporary mode;
An interim device to get The egg across the road.
No hen has never fathomed Why they cross the thoroughfare;
To the hen it's immaterial; The egg needs to be there.

Some folk will go through life And never have the slightest notion
That the egg makes the decision And the hen supplies the motion.
The chicken's rather stupid; It's the egg that really plans it;
And so I say to you A hen is just an egg in transit

Plaudits to the irrepressible Les


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Dave Earl
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:06 PM

Do I detect a bit of a drift here?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:07 PM

Richard,

I have just noticed you made a reference to me in an earlier post regarding the website Face Book.

I wish to categorically deny I had any involvement in this despicable deed against you. We are poles apart in our political views, but I respect your right to express your opinion and wish to state here I deplore the actions of whoever did this.

I am not a contributor to Face Book.

TB


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:18 PM

This thread is supposed to be about the BNP. If in doubt read the thread title! Moving the discussion to dotted I's and crossed T's is more evidence that the BNP can only divert debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: greensue
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM

I've now read the rest, so here we go:
The Borchester Echo," their new statements are a lot gentler". Yes they are and I think she believes in the change.
Ruth Archer, I am nieve as to politics, but as she has never treated me badly, I will treat her the same way.
Nick, she has not killed, nor has plans to kill anyone of any race or creed. the others eg Harold Shipman have. Nor do I believe she would. I do not think I am a nameless Troll either. Quit the mudslinging. You have not declared your party preference, but I can assure you mine is not bnp. I have never asked any af my friends which way they vote, but as long as they treat me and my friens (many are black, asian and gypsies) as they should, then I see no need to curtail that friendship. Besides without a comparison, how would we gnow what is good and what is bad? Percieved evil does not make it so in fact.
Fred, why not meet her first and make up your own mind instead of being persuaded by a lable.
Peace what is "Darkie Day"? I am not familiar with this title.
Gervase, if one shouldn't make assumptions, then don't.
Lox, I will take you up on your offer to little Hawk. I will arrive in my wheelchair and talk with them.
My Guru. Surely if you ostracise her she will have no-one to turn to except them. then she really will become the evil being you all think she is now. How can we steer her onto the right path if no-one is talking to her, but just shouting about the party.
Richard Bridge. How did we get onto paedophiles?
Don, I would try and persuade them otherwise. It was British people that voted them in. If more brits had voted it may have been different.
Anne Lister, she couldn't back out as the other person did because she doesn't yey realise that she's been taken in. I will continue to try gentle persuation but will not bully her as she has never tried to push her politics on me.
Little Hawk, you seem to share a lot of my opinions in life. Cary on being you.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:25 PM

i was always taught that the egg came first..from dinosaurs.
hey AKE, why have you not responded to me? is the fact that i argued your' point got you in a flap( cluck)? light reading, could you tell me what that is? little books perhaps... janet and john sort of thing do you mean?
i was enjoying the english lesson but it still went over my hed, wen do we get prt 2? i tink i kneed it!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM

I wish to categorically deny I had any involvement in this despicable deed against you.
I shouldn't think anyone actually gives a flying fart whether you deny anything, DMR, apart from the holocaust. But while you're in denial - what about the questions that were put earlier about the BNP. Do you deny those and, if so, what evidence do you have?
Oh, I forgot - you don't answer questions, do you? Like George, you regard inconvenient truths as things that can be sidestepped. Don't let the facts get in the way, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: greensue
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:33 PM

Oh yes I think the egg joke thing should have been:
Someone threw an egg at Nick Griffin, had they seperated the white from the coloured?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM

"so you didn't sit in class and learn English then?"

No. I sat in a classroom.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM

Jeddy..I didn't respond because I thought you were an idiot,

If I was wrong, compose a sensible post and prove it.

If I was right, stop takin' the piss :0)..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:48 PM

AKE, stop taking the piss, NEVER,

you thought i was an idiot, fine that is your' right to think so.however that reads fine to me, tell me which bit you thought was idiotic and i will reason it out to you.

it was you who were saying that the lib dems, conservatives and loubour were in fact worse than the BNP not me.

it seems obvious to me that you are the idiot if you cannot understand humour. i was asking what you thought light reading was and since your' only answer has been to try and make me look stupid( ican do that well enough on my own ta, and do quite alot of the time, but not in this instance i feel)i can only assume you do not actually read any books.

this kind of thing is exactly what AZIZI was talking about when she was saying about misunderstandings.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:11 PM

AKE, this is what you said about the similarities between gays and lesbisns and insest and pedophilia( alright i can't spell it but i know what it means)
"

If anyone wants to fuck their sister, their auntie,or another man, I say good luck to them let, them get on with it as long as the sister, auntie, or other man wants the same as they do. What they do in private is their business, but there is no bastard in the world going to tell me, Mudcat, or society at large, that their business is normal human behaviour and we must give up our long held traditional beliefs to accomodate it,or hand over very young children in a bizarre social experiment......Ake "

you accuse me of being an idiot PMSL as a gay woman i dispise your' ignorance. nut it is okay for me but if i were a man? no, not acceptable . please get back to me about this and my original post to you as i would like to see just how stupid you really can be x x x
"


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:24 AM

bnp people =you are rubbish, so fuck off, thats my opinion.

Sir jOhn Evans from Hull.


anyay=waht if yuo get ill and a coloured person, =ie= a doctor saves your life, maybe you are rubbish, and think he should be sent to back to india,or werever he comes from.

anyway=if you get in an accident, i hope all the foreign people go on strike, anmd just leave you to die, and serve you right , becae you are shit and racist, and i don't think there be any religo waht suppport rasist views, so just think about that then,stupif.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:42 AM

As always Sir jOhn from Hull has hit the nail on the head.
Well said. (You can leave out the expletives next time!)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM

Hello Jeddy,I'm sorry, you are obviously not an "idiot", tho' I was also supposed to be having a joke.

I was responding in kind to others on the "gay marriage" thread and must have carried over to this one.

I will respond to you later, but have to get out to work right now.   Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: eddie1
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM

Have a look at this

My Britain and I'm proud of it!

Thanks to mg on another thread for this link.

Eddie


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

I don't know if this is a bit off topic or could even be a thread in its own right, but as Gordon Brown has spoken about reforming the electoral system for MPs this raises some concerns.

I hope that parliament will never be determined by a vote carve-up as in the GLA and Euro-elections.

In first past the post constituents vote for an individual to represent them. In turn that individual may (most likely) belong to a political party, and, again, most likely the voter makes their choice on the basis of the party the individual belongs to.

The European PR method has some set-backs:

If the number of MPs was 500, then a repugnant party could gain a seat with as little as .2% of the vote, so if they got 2 seats, it means that 99.4% of those who voted would not touch them with a bargepole.

How would MPs be allocated to constituencies? It would not be viable for a party with one elected candidate to hold surgeries in all 500 constituences.

Thirdly, the personaility of the MP may cross party boudaries. Someone may for example vote lib-dem on the basis of the MPs track record in representing his or her constituents rather than the support for his/her party.

Personally I favour the transferrable vote method where the person elected has the support of the majority of those who voted in any given constituency.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:08 AM

To everyone who's told me about the identity theft - ta. It's been reported to Facebook. Yes, they've done a "Hoff Bridge" on me, too. Sad, really, but at least it exposes the BNP and their grubby little tactics to anyone who thinks they've "changed".


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:22 AM

AKE,
i'm sorry too, i think we both got caught up in the spirit of arguement.
i hope work for you isn't too bad and you are one of the lucky ones who enjoy what you do.
i am looking forward to some debating with you later, i promise i will leave the insults out.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: fairplay
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:41 AM

George has been courageous in clarifying the speculation disingeniously started by Cllr and dignified in not responding to the accusatory and hysterical postings of the witch-hunters.

The personal abuse, the attempt to incite and organise social ostracism, and the hints of physical confrontation and violence are ugly.

I am disappointed that Dave Earl withdrew his original support. Did the witch-finders show him the instruments of torture?

I don't know if our paths will cross any time soon, but I would very much like to hear George's singing.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM

Ah Mr fairplay....
Have you changed your name again? Weren't you Daily Mail Reader the other day?
Come on. You are a BNP apologist aren't you?
As for the singing of George, I've never knowingly heard her sing. And now I don't wish too.
(Mind you she would probably appreciate one person listening)
Looking forward to having my identity stolen along with those that it's already happened to.
Bring it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:05 AM

I have heard George sing, Ralphie - she is good, no denying that. As long as she's not singing from the wrong hymnbook, that's fine by me. I don't know who fairplay is, and it doesn't really matter to me, I just judge posters from their postings taking them at face value and I'm too thick to wrap my brain around conspiracy theories. My position on the subject of BNP should be clear enough by now anyway.

As for identity theft, I fear we are too small fry for the Benighted Nationalist Pillocks to bother us - to save honour you and I may have to steal each other's identity... :-)

Ake, Jeddy, well done for piping downand agreeing to shed the extras - it upset me a little to see two reasonable people losing their arguments in a sea of abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:29 AM

"the hints of physical confrontation and violence are ugly."

I agree, but it's always been a part of how the BNP and its bootboys operate. I was looking at a photo yesterday in the Manchester Evening News of the uniformed fascist thugs preventing people from entering the pub where Griffin was holding court. Never have I seen such an ugly bunch.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:55 AM

Three posts from "fairplay" within minutes, all supporting the BNP, and she's never posted here before.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Dudfoot
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM

Ralphie: "As for the singing of George, I've never knowingly heard her sing. And now I don't wish too."

Yorgos: "As long as she's not singing from the wrong hymnbook, that's fine by me."

I have to stand with Ralphie here. A performance of a song is about much more than the song itself. No singer is really worth listening to unless they own the song - they make that song part of their person. You choose a song because of the way it resonates with you and the nuances of performance embody the character of the performer. A good performance is impossible unless there's something of the performer in it. And the little I know about George as a person, the things that she condones and approves of, makes me pretty sure that the character that is expressed in this way is not one that I want to have anything to do with.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Dave Earl
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

Er scuse me Fairplay where do you know me from?

What I said was :-

1 Until George did..... I still regard her as a friend.

2 Suggested that it be best not to spoil the Middle Bar sessions - (Cos others feel more grieved than I - I just feel a friend is mistaken in her choice).

I don't feel that I have supported the BNP (I'd dislike myself if I had)
so there was no support to withdraw. I don't to politics (left,right,middle of the road or any other direction) butI do care about people I know even if I disagree with them from time to time.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:31 AM

>>How can all of you spitting fire and disgust hope to persuade a nieve girl that she is wrong.

A naive girl? What a sweet thought.

I could understand that someone might have some support for the BNP naively.
I could perhaps understand someone voting for the BNP naively.
Joining the BNP naively - no that's getting hard.
Getting involved in the BNP naively - nope.
Becoming a candidate and standing in an election naively - there is no hope of that.

As this naif goes from door to door campaigning for the first time and encounters some conflict to the BNPs standpoints and views - what does she say? "I am standing as a candidate but I don't actually believe in any of the policies I just became a candidate naively". There's a vote puller...

There is noone in this country with the smallest bit of functional brain that could naively become a candidate for a political party - ESPECIALLY the BNP.

Read about their selection process.

Be like someone standing as a candidate for the Green Party and being surprised at the reaction they get when they announce that, as usual, they'll be driving to Canada in the 4x4 to enjoy their annual seal clubbing holiday.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:35 AM

Dudfoot, I agree abhout the performance of a song being more than the song itself, but has it happened to you to have listened several times to someone's passionate and sensitive singing, and liked them for it, only to find out accidentally years later that at the time the singer you admired had been a wife-beater? Or an embezzler? Or that they had repeatedly beaten their step-son to the point of hospitalisation? Because I have - all three cases I mention.

And of course, any friendship that existed between me and them ceased to be once I found out those things. But I could not deny having enjoyed their singing when I knew none of those things. This led me to think: Had my enjoyment been false at the time? (Answer: No, I had genuinely enjoyed them). Had their singing changed once I learnt what they had done? (Answer: No, it was just as good). What had undoubtedly changed was my perception of them as people.

In the interests of objectivity I resolved therefore to always try to dissociate the singer's personality from the performance, with the one exception when their performance is in support of a cause I disagree with - what I call a 'militant' or 'militarised' performance. Which is why I would not give Michael Jackson the time of day, but I will listen to his songs, especially the early ones, with pleasure.

So while your argument is logical, I would argue that it leaves too much room for subjectivity and is therefore impractical in the real world, as exemplified by the three cases I mentioned above.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:39 AM

Nick, I agree fully - 'naive' does not cut it, not for membership of any party and certainly not for standing for office on behalf of it. Sadly, we have to assume that George made a conscious choice in standing for BNP, which in turn leads us to deduce certain characteristis of her personality and thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM

Like several others, I avoided this thread at first. I expected the sort of awful vitriol which has become part of Mudcat in recent times, but, having felt I needed to see exactly what George had to say, I came on here and am relieved to find (in the main) rational, civilized and reasonable comment.

Firstly, I too would like to see George change her Mudcat identity. If she continues to call hersel MBS I will have to change mine, and I was MBSLynne long before she was MBSGeorge. Besides, I don't think she will really be able to call herself a Middle Bar Singer any more.

As I've thought and thought about all this the one thing that comes up in my mind is that I MUST ask George one question......"WHY?" I've known her for many years and I was taken aback (to understate it) when I read about this on the Middle Bar group. I think a lot of people who support BNP are naive to say the least (And in my experience, not often intelligent, thinking people) but as has been pointed out by a number of people, to support the party may be due to naievety (How the bloody hell do you spell that??) but actually to stand for the party can hardly be excused on those grounds.

I considered George a friend but I find that this cannot be the case now I know her views. To be my friend and to support a party of racists and bigots....the two are mutually exclusive. No friend of mine could possibly endorse this party and it's views.

However I would still like to hear George's reasons. Any chance?

Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: MBSLynne
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:58 AM

Damn it! Sorry, that last post was me. My computer is being funny with cookies or something.

Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM

To help us rationalise the complexities of the world around us, we often look for 'handles' on which to base assumptions. It's human, we all do it to some extent, the difference between us is only in the degree of assumptions we are prepared to make. So we can deduce certain things from one's membership of, or candidacy for, a party. But how far are we prepared to carry these assumptions?

We can safely deduce that George supports the BNP policies, including their racism, the totalitarianism of their political thinking and their preparedness to resort to violence. But how much more can we deduce safely? Would she be a bad mother? Would she steal? Would she give to charity? Would she be a bad driver? Would she be a bad singer? Our own differing tolerance levels to some of these acts, and our different thresholds of acceptable assumptions, is what makes us different from each other.

I remember my parents (Greek Liberals, i.e. Centre-Right) often marvelling at the 'wonder' that their best friend was a staunch Communist. But that incongruity led them - and me - to beware of too many assumptions and generalisations.

There is such a thing as Totalitarian Thinking, to which even the most democratic and liberal-minded people can be prone.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Dudfoot
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM

It's a subjective thing - I couldn't agree more - and a very subtle thing too. I doubt that many of us could hear a performance and unerringly detect all the ways in which the performer's personality is couched within it. We just don't have the tools to do that. But (and I freely admit that I'm talking somewhat hypothetically here, never knowingly having heard the singer in question) this is a rather exeptional case. For one thing, these are not just predispositions. To put yourself forward as a candidate for election for a particular set of principles is to make a conscious decision to make these principles a significant, defining part of you as a person. So these parts of the personality are likely to be among the most influential. And secondly folk song is especially susceptible to manipulation by ultra-nationalists.

If someone sings a traditional song - and not one explicitly making the point - I think I generally get a good idea if that performer has a rose-tinted view of the past, whether they find a connection with the singers who have passed the song along (or, conversely, detatch themselves from that), whether they think of the originators of the song (or the characters withing it) as primitive or sophisticated (or as equals). And many more things besides. And all of these nuances come from the performer's personal make-up.

Moreover, in this particular case, we know the vile matrix through which the song is being filtered. Ultimately the conclusion about the content of the performance may well be subjective and my own, but it's real.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM

It's not fashionable to say so, but -isms of the left (Stalin, Mao) killed far more people in the 20th century than the -ism of the right (Hitler) did.

Why do we not excoriate Stalin's and Mao's latter-day followers (communists, socialists) and label them with their fathers' genocides as we do with Hitler's?

Because we're unthinkingly fashion-led, that's why.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM

No it isn't, it's because we of the left do not necessarily espouse or condone the actions of Stalin or Mao - nor do we dress up in their uniforms and parade around under their symbols, as do the fascist thugs of the BNP and other right wing groups. Fashion has nothing to do with it - what a stupid statement.

Sorry, Ringer, you're arguments just don't hold water - yet again!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM

"Why do we not excoriate Stalin's and Mao's latter-day followers (communists, socialists) and label them with their fathers' genocides as we do with Hitler's?

Because we're unthinkingly fashion-led, that's why."


No offence, but this is one of the most ignorant and downright thick statements I've ever read on MudCat. I'm not going to, point out why, because if you actually believe what you're written it's probably way beyond your understanding anyway.

Christ on a bike.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:21 AM

"George has been courageous in clarifying the speculation disingeniously started by Cllr and dignified in not responding to the accusatory and hysterical postings of the witch-hunters.

The personal abuse, the attempt to incite and organise social ostracism, and the hints of physical confrontation and violence are ugly.

I am disappointed that Dave Earl withdrew his original support. Did the witch-finders show him the instruments of torture?

I don't know if our paths will cross any time soon, but I would very much like to hear George's singing."


Good Day to you Daily Mail Reader old girl/boy. Sorry I don't like the new outfit, it clashes with your beliefs


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM

"Why don't you stop shouting and try a little light reading?"

sorry, sunshine, I don't shout when I'm angry, don't even break a sweat, and light reading? your posts on various threads are good for that.

Very calm very collected and staying that way


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:47 AM

"We of the left," theleveller, often seem to be fatally blinkered, as I point out on another current thread.

I didn't ask whether we "espouse or condone the actions of Stalin or Mao," I asked why we didn't excoriate their followers.

And from what you say above, that they dress up in brown shirts is not the biggest thing that you hold against the BNP.

Condescendingly, you say, "you're arguments just don't hold water." Why don't you try addressing them, then? Because your post came nowhere near to doing that. And what you say would have more impact if you learned the basic difference between "you're" and "your" (this is where I spot a grammatical error in my post just as I hit submit *grin*).

No offence taken, Sugarfoot Jack. But if you present no arguments, would anyone blame me for thinking that you had none?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM

Yorgos

Similarly I'm agreeing. When I stand in a room and listen to someone play or sing or perform their politics and views are irrelevant UP TO THE POINT when I know them.

I dare say that's why people walk out when I play - it's because of my political beliefs.

I'll be starting another thread by the way with an Essay Competition (with perhaps a free ticket to Sidmouth as prize?). The tie break question will be along the lines of (answer in 20 words or less) -

"I had absolutely no idea what the BNP stood for when I became their candidate because..."

The competition will be to write an essay called "I became a candidate for the BNP naively"

The winning entry will demonstrate convincingly that they became a member of the party and a candidate for election with absolutely no idea about any of the party's aims, aspirations, history or background of any of the members or their convictions (in all senses of the word).

Judges decision is final. (I am the judge)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:49 AM

There was something that caught my eye on a television programme recently, just one of those antiques programmes burbling in the background, as they tend to do...

And a very elegent well-spoken elderly lady, from Austria originally I believe, was extolling the virtues of Britian.

She said with emphasis: "I'm more pro-British than the British!"

Her story was, that as a young child, she along with her parents had managed to escape from the Nazi's. The other seventeen members of her family had died in the death camps.

I found it remarkable and inspiring, that to this very day, multiple decades after her relocation here, she retains such a great pride in, and admiration of, Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,Jackdaw
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:53 AM

And why wouldn't she Crow sister, half of Europe is enjoying the health service and education system we British built and paid for. Welcome to soft touch Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:02 PM

"Because your post came nowhere near to doing that. And what you say would have more impact if you learned the basic difference between "you're" and "your" "

No? Ah well, that's a matter of opinion. As to the typing error, well, after spending the last 9 hours in front of a PC writing a 5000 word guide to people with hearing problems, I'm suffering from a bit of eye strain. (Why is the type on Mudcat so small?) I feel the need of liquid refreshment. Bye for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Bye to you, too. Enjoy your pint, as I hope to enjoy mine (but mine will be after ringing practice - it's called the thirst after righteousness).


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:42 PM

Good idea - time for a pint! Have a good one.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:38 PM

Why do we not excoriate Stalin's and Mao's latter-day followers (communists, socialists) and label them with their fathers' genocides as we do with Hitler's?
Because we're unthinkingly fashion-led, that's why.


What an Idiot!!!! Stalin was no more communist than Hitler. Both were dictators you fool. And as for Mao being socialist - well thanks for that one, I've not had such a good laugh in ages. Dictators the lot.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: GUEST,English Jon
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:39 PM

Nothing much to add, except my name to the very long list of people who are opposed to the BNP/NF/C18 crowd.

A sad day.

Cheers,
Jon Loomes


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:40 PM

An interesting feature od this thread is that quite a few posters actually seem to be acquainted with the fascist singer at Sidmouth sessions. So, what songs does she perform/like? I am intrigued.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:02 PM

Apologies that I haven't read past halfway in this thread. I did get far enough however to see that Little Hawk is way, way out of his depth. He says, for instance, "Evidently they equate to modern day "Nazis" in people's minds," and yet in the same breath admits that he has no basis for that opinion.

The BNP are NOT Nazis merely in people's minds. Many of their leading members have convictions for crimes involving violence and incitement to hatred. A significant proportion of Nazis went through WW2 without ever comprehending how the Third Reich went about resolving the Jewish problem in Poland etc. No such excuse is available to the BNP. Those in its leadership who admire Hitler do so specifically specifically because of his anti-semitism, his loathing of gays and the disabled, etc.

If Little Hawk is loyal to the principles he has expressed in this thread then in a bygone age he would have been happy to debate the rights and wrongs of lynchings with KKK members. And if any of his friends are violent paedophiles he would presumably look for common ground rather than jeopardise the friendship.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: greensue
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:03 PM

The same songs as anyone else


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM

That's interesting, Sue. Most folksong singers I know seek to develop an individual repertoire.

As to admiring a skill without regard to background, any admiration I might have had for Geroge Carman as a barrister in court (which was guarded in any event because of his habit of bullying witnesses)vanished when I found out how he behaved in private.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

ok, another thick moment ....who is george carmen? has he been talked about and i have missed the posting? I'M CONFUSED. please explain.   j x x


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:19 PM

Ringer,

You seem to be suggesting that by having a problem with the BNP we are hypocrites.

On what basis?

Well, our reason for disliking Nazis is that we are horrified by the thought of Nazism returning to Europe.

Ah right ... so how are we hypocrites?

Well ... if you compare hitler to Mao and Stalin, you find that they were respponsible for huge numbers of deaths too.

er .. ok ... still don't get it ...

*sigh*


Well if you disagree with the BNP then you are obviously left wing ...

... really? ... oh ... ok ...

and therefore you support Mao and Stalin ...

... do I ... gosh ... news to me ...

which makes you a hypocrite as the only reason you are slating Hitler and not them is because it is trendy ...



My dear Ringer.


Let me make this clear.

There wasn't a Neo-Stalinist party participating in the Euro elections.

There wasn't a Maoist party in the EU elections.

There are no Stalinist or Maoist MEP's from the UK.

phew ... don't have to worry about that then.

HANG ON!!!

you know wht?

... duh ... what ...

there was a Neo Nazi party represented at the EU elections.

... duh ... oh ... was there ...

Yes - they claim that they are becoming trendier these days (not actually true, just that everyone would rather stay hone this year)

They are called the BNP and they are about as trendy as a pair of sackcloth Y-Fronts.

... uh huh ...

Yeah - so (concentrate) as though we don't have a Stalinist or a Maoist party to worry about, we do have a Neo-Nazi party to worry about.

That is why we are talking about Nazi's and not Mao or Stalin.

see?


... uh ... no ... i fink ... uh ... what?


Never mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Nick
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:23 PM

From: Peter K (Fionn) - PM

Little Hawk is no part of the problem here.

The BNP are.

Don't get sidetracked.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:10 PM

Carman was until his fairly recent death possibly the best known English barrister. His cross-examination was much feared.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:40 PM

richard,
thankyou, i assume he was into race purity then or something similar?
i still don't understand the link between him and the bnp. is this something i should know or does it matterv if i don't ?

anyway, i think it is entirely possible to be sucked in by the BNP as happened to that woman who after knowing what she had gotten herself into said "DON'T VOTE FOR ME"if this was the case with GEORGE then why not just admit it? so i am assuming tht because she hassn't she is still in there with the party line. how can she sing any sort of protest song with any integraty(?) it just wouldn't work would it?

anyway i am off to read then sleep.    i am sorryb if this has made no sense i will come back tommorrow to check.

night night take care

jade x


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Subject: RE: BS: I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:30 AM

No jeddy. My point is this.

Thinking folkies above have said that they respected MBSGeorge's singing before they knew of her loathsome politics, and that her politics cannot affect the impression they had had of her singing.

I have given a real life example of a well-known man (a vile bully and wife-beater but not as far as I know a racist) who was widely respected for his skills (while alive) as a barrister. Since the facts have, since his death, emerged, I have ceased to hold the same respect for the very skills for which he was respected.

That is the extent of the analogy.
    In the interest of peace and tranquility, I think it's time to close this thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 2 July 4:04 PM EDT

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