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BS: BNP: What would you do?

Richard Bridge 13 Jul 09 - 11:37 AM
Royston 13 Jul 09 - 08:23 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jul 09 - 08:09 AM
Royston 13 Jul 09 - 07:45 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM
Stu 13 Jul 09 - 07:14 AM
TheSnail 13 Jul 09 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jul 09 - 04:41 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jul 09 - 04:26 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jul 09 - 04:22 AM
Joe Offer 12 Jul 09 - 10:56 PM
Azizi 12 Jul 09 - 12:02 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Jul 09 - 10:42 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Jul 09 - 10:34 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jul 09 - 10:17 AM
Royston 12 Jul 09 - 07:42 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jul 09 - 07:38 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jul 09 - 07:33 AM
Emma B 12 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM
jeddy 12 Jul 09 - 07:13 AM
Fred McCormick 12 Jul 09 - 07:01 AM
Royston 12 Jul 09 - 06:47 AM
GUEST, Inertial observer 12 Jul 09 - 06:46 AM
TheSnail 12 Jul 09 - 06:33 AM
Emma B 12 Jul 09 - 06:19 AM
Royston 12 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM
Emma B 12 Jul 09 - 05:43 AM
Royston 12 Jul 09 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,lox 12 Jul 09 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,lox 12 Jul 09 - 04:35 AM
Peace 12 Jul 09 - 04:32 AM
Peace 12 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM
Peace 12 Jul 09 - 04:06 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jul 09 - 04:02 AM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jul 09 - 03:26 AM
greensue 12 Jul 09 - 03:24 AM
jeddy 11 Jul 09 - 10:50 PM
Peace 11 Jul 09 - 10:50 PM
Joe Offer 11 Jul 09 - 10:40 PM
Peace 11 Jul 09 - 10:12 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Jul 09 - 10:04 PM
Peace 11 Jul 09 - 08:07 PM
Royston 11 Jul 09 - 07:56 PM
Joe Offer 11 Jul 09 - 07:38 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Jul 09 - 06:59 PM
Gervase 11 Jul 09 - 06:17 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Jul 09 - 05:39 PM
Peace 11 Jul 09 - 05:09 PM
Royston 11 Jul 09 - 05:09 PM
greensue 11 Jul 09 - 04:52 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:37 AM

Let's have a separate thread. This one is quite long enough with the important topic of how to deal with the dimshits.
    I've had a couple of requests that this thread be closed, and I think I'll honor them. Elements of this thread are just a bit too pointedly directed at an individual Mudcatter.
    Carry on - in another thread - but keep it civil, and remember that we don't allow personal attacks or anonymous posts.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:23 AM

Equity plans will work if markets keep rising.

Errm, I think we are living (again) in the proof that this is not a realistic expectation.

Property investment is not a bad wheeze, as if the population rises so must relative values of property - "Buy land, they aren't making it any more".

But property was being pushed up because people realised pensions are unworkable. The investors plans relies on them ALL cashing in their houses for cash - whioh, when it happens, depresses the market. Another variant of a Ponzi scheme.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:09 AM

Equity plans will work if markets keep rising.

Property investment is not a bad wheeze, as if the population rises so must relative values of property - "Buy land, they aren't making it any more".

If course the Barbara Castle Graduated National Pension did depend on continuing tax take, but that's not quite the same as a Ponzi scheme.

The "exponential rises" is not quite accurate either. Shall we start another thread about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:45 AM

Keith,

There are quite legitimate concerns about mass immigration.

You're absolutely right. And this is why I want the debate taken away from the BNP and why I keep imploring people to lobby their MP's to be tough on Racists, tough on the causes of Racism.

Build enough schools to accommodate everyone in this country
Build enough council/social houses
Build enough hospitals.

Mainstream politicians need to tell the truth about the numbers (which will prove we have no "mass" immigration, save for Eeastern Europeans 2004-2007 whose numbers are now reducing dramatically), and tell the truth about why we need immigration - and in greater numbers than we now have.

I took the following article from the Daily Mail. It is unusually thoughtful, although I don't agree with all of it. But it is a well researched piece of work that many may trust more than an article in the Guardian or from a think-tank. The whole thing is at

HERE

But the piece that is important to the question "why we need immigration" is...

OUR AGEING POPULATION The fastest-growing segment of the population is the over-85s, the figures showed. A record 1,243,000 have now passed the age of 85 and the group grew by 6 per cent last year.

The number of people over retirement age is now 11,344,000 - up 1 per cent in a year.

There are concerns that Britain's ageing population will become difficult to sustain because there are fewer taxpayers to pay for older people's pensions and health care costs.

The working age population is growing, although more slowly - it was up by 0.8 per cent to 37,710,000.

At the same time the number of children under 16 dropped by 0.4 per cent to 11,537,000. Overall numbers went up by 349,000 to 60,587,000, according to the figures.

Just over half of the increase was attributed to immigration, the rest to increasing birth rates. These are rising largely because recent immigrants are having more children than the existing population.

One in four of the 734,000 babies born last year had a parent who was born abroad. This is up from one in five in 2001.

The rising number of children born to migrants compares with much lower birthrates among women whose background is wholly British


And, by the way, the description "...whose background is wholly British" refers to women born in this country, regardless of ethnicity. I checked on the ONS data.

So this links in with my other great personal crusade - to get people to realise the lies that politicians tell about pensions.

Pensions are a Ponzi fraud. All of them.

Personal Equity Pensions won't work, free-markets can't sustain the top-heavy inverted pyramid of the population's age-profile.

Each and every final-salary pension plan WILL FAIL for the same reason as the equity plans, only they will all fail more quickly because an individual corporate entity's pension scheme will crumble more quickly under the demands of shareholders for profitability.

Only public sector workers whose pensions are paid from tax can theoretically survive this storm, so long as the rest of us are willing to keep paying exponentially higher taxes to fund them. (more state-pensioners + dwindlwing tax-payers = exponential ries in tax).

Frank Field is right to point out that this disparity will lead to civil unrest on a catastrophic scale. Governments and professional continuity and contingency planners are already working up scenarios for this while they continue to tell people "don't worry".

So our only real hope is to continue to strive for economic success, distribute wealth more fairly, pay higher taxes AND increase the tax-base. We really need to work out how we do that together and it begins with honesty and open-minded thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM

And indeed the majority of the Roma are outside towns.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:14 AM

"Check your math, and your reading skills, Snail. I figured most people would understand the lily-white area begins 50 miles north of London (and note that I said the inland area)"

I agree with TheSnail - this is simply dead wrong.

My paternal family hail from the East End of London and some were Huguenot immigrants, I grew up on the outskirts of Brum, live south of Manchester and was in Bradford last week; these areas have diverse and vibrant ethnic populations and have for years. The Balti curry first came to the UK when it was sold in the balti houses of Sparkbrook.

Rurally racial diversity is undoubtedly less, but I think you'd be surprised at the number of languages and cultures many small towns contain these days, and long may it remain so.

There's a hell of a lot more to the UK than London. Thank god.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:13 AM

Joe Offer

I figured most people would understand the lily-white area begins 50 miles north of London

Sorry Joe but I think you can forgive my mistake when I say that it never occurred to me that you could be saying anything so absurd.

Try these -

Birmingham
Bradford
Manchester
Leicester
Preston


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:41 AM

Not just xenophobia Richard.
There are quite legitimate concerns about mass immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:26 AM

There is now a fake Kat Coffey too

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=100000084256506


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:22 AM

No, Joe, their fear is based solely on xenophobia.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:56 PM

Posted By: TheSnail
12-Jul-09 - 06:33 AM
Thread Name: BS: BNP: What would you do?
Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?

Joe Offer
quoting Joe: "London is the most ethnically diverse city I've ever seen - but most of the inland population 50 miles north of London is lily-white, and they're scared of all the immigrants who have moved to their country."

Luton is 32 miles north of London. I respect your point of view, but please try and find out what you are talking about before condemning whole areas of the UK as racists.



Check your math, and your reading skills, Snail. I figured most people would understand the lily-white area begins 50 miles north of London (and note that I said the inland area). Luton, at 32 miles north, is about the dividing line - and yes, it did seem to be quite ethnically diverse when I visited there. I thought of saying the "inland area north of Luton," but I figured that readers outside the UK wouldn't know what I was talking about.

I did NOT say that the people north of Luton were racists. I said they're mostly white, and that many of them are scared of large-scale immigration. Their fears are real, and need to be answered. They need to be exposed to ethnic diversity in positive ways, and not have it shoved down their throats. Condemning an honestly frightened person as "racist" is certainly not a good way to get that person to accept racial diversity. Same is true for people in the north-central US, and for Californians north of Sacramento.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:02 PM

'casual racism'...tends to be an unconsidered 'cultural default' amongst some working-class groups in particular)

I did also hear such casual racist oral claptrap, as indeed I heard it last September and last summer at the same place - and in places even embedded in otherwise left-ish expression, so not solely from the usual suspects.

**

I suppose if I responded differently to things, I would be very angry that there existed such a degree of racism that those people who felt that way-and not the people who are reporting it here-consider it to be casual.

I feel that I should be angry because there are a lot of people whose racism is their cultural default.

I can understand other people being angry and speaking from that anger either because they are themselves a target of such racism, or they have people in their family and/or have friends who are a target of such racism. And I can understand other people being angry whose family and friends fought in wars to try to safeguard the world against the reoccurance of such casual and not so casual racism.

I much prefer responses of anger to racism than blandness and a distancing shrugging of the shoulders that "that's life".

And sometimes I think that there's something wrong with me that I don't have the energy anymore-and rarely ever did-to show my anger about racism. Typing this I realize that it's not that I don't have any feelings of anger about people not seeing me and other people who are different from them without racist blinders on. Maybe it's just that I don't express anger very well or maybe I don't want to express my anger because it is so emotionally draining to do so.

Instead of admitting any anger, when I read comments like the ones I quoted, I just feel very sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:42 AM

http://www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=90702

Police in Yorkshire investigating possible right wing terrorist conspiracies found the largest stash of arms in the UK since the 1960s - and a BNP membership card.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:34 AM

I can confirm, Crow Sister, that I did also hear such casual racist oral claptrap, as indeed I heard it last September and last summer at the same place - and in places even embedded in otherwise left-ish expression, so not solely from the usual suspects.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:17 AM

"I heard the same old casual racist claptrap from a lot of people there."

A *lot* of people?
That surprises me somewhat actually. Not that I'm unfamiliar with 'casual racism' by any means (it tends to be an unconsidered 'cultural default' amongst some working-class groups in particular), but although my exposure to folk enthusiasts hasn't been extensive, I've yet to witness the same kind of casual racism I see elsewhere, amongst folky types.
Not disagreeing of course - you know these people far better than I, just quite surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:42 AM

Come to Essex and listen to the bin men for example, it's here *on the streets, in the factories, and in the pubs*, that you'll find the kind of people I'm talking about - not at a rally

You and I were both at an informal folk gathering recently. I heard the same old casual racist claptrap from a lot of people there. It was deeply shameful.

That is why the ant-fascist backlash is trade-union led initiative. UAF is a banner organisation which aims to occupy as much of the media as possible with facts and large-scale events, whilst individual unions work on grass roots information and education aimed at the bin-men, streets, factories and pubs.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:38 AM

Royston, Sorry, I misread your previous comments. Even so, I stand by my own - I have met these people. And I don't believe they're all extremists, just dissafected, and being drawn in.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:33 AM

"Crow Sister says she has met some "misguided" BNP converts, well I haven't. And I've spoken to more BNP sympathisers (members of the public not even party-members) on protests and rallies than I care to remember."

Not quite BNP 'converts' Royston, but most certainly people who murmur that they are considering voting BNP. I don't think that these are the same people that you may talk to at rallies by a long straw. They're not political activists or white-supremacists, they just feel fucked over and are buying BNP rhetoric.

Come to Essex and listen to the bin men for example, it's here *on the streets, in the factories, and in the pubs*, that you'll find the kind of people I'm talking about - not at a rally.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM

Fred, I think the situation in http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/did-BNP-favour-Coalville-voters/article-1069297-detail/article.html was not unique.

Take the ward of Coalville -

"A decade ago, Labour held 36 of the district's 40 seats.
Their majority was so overwhelming that opposition and scrutiny came not from the Tories, who had just three seats and were rarely seen, but from rival factions inside the ruling Labour group and the media.

It was at a time when the town, through no fault of its own, was on its knees following the death of the mining industry.

Six collieries – Snibston, Desford, Whitwick, Ellistown, South Leicester and Bagworth – closed in and around Coalville in an eight-year period from 1983-1991. About 5,000 men – men with well-paid, proud jobs – were put on the dole.

Shops and pubs and businesses which relied on that industry and all that it provided went to the wall.

A community which thrived on the commodity which gave it its name was economically and then socially bereft."

Areas such as Coalville – including the former mining towns in the north where the Labour vote also collapsed – provided a rich seam of disillusionment for the BNP, said a local 'politics exper
"The BNP target white, working class areas with a degree of deprivation,"

In the run up to the election, most national newspapers, including the local Mercury, ran editorials advising their readers not to vote for the BNP.
In a unprecedented move, the NUT delivered leaflets in and around Coalville urging people not to vote BNP.
It was a move which played right into the party's hands, argued some.

"If you're angry at the system and the establishment and what you perceive to be the same establishment telling you how you should vote, you may well rebel."


Now Thatcher can certainly be held responsible for the closure of the pits but - "The New Labour project, that brave centre-left experiment to bring Clintonian Third-Way politics to a post-Thatcherite Britain" must take a very great share of the blame too in it's abject failure to communicate to it's traditional supporters

Kowtowing to the Murdoch press and a commitment to spinning a narrative to a 'middle England', have ensured it no longer speaks directly to the poor and disenfranchised

"Whenever a section of society is ignored and marginalised, the predatory fascist right move in to fill the vacuum" writes one political blogger


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:13 AM

i am not suggesting that we should stop speaking out and educating the public about what the BNP are really like, but there are more poeple that fall into the trap laid for them by the BNP and those are the ones that will dig their heels in if you just shout names at them.

i confess i have done my fair share of this and where has it got us? nowhere!!
the only way to battle them is to cut off their life support, by educating folks and stop them voting for them. rallies and protests will only go so far and i applaud your comitment royston, but we have to get them on all sides.

unfortunatly these people will always find each other and band together BUT if we can make this group of thugs smaller and smaller, we minimise the risk that others will listen, by exposing the lack of intellegence, unwillingness to listen and most of all by their own actions of violence and hatred.

thankyou to joe and emma and crowsister for your support, but all i did was to start thinking instead of reacting. THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ANYONE.me getting worked up and outraged will not change anything, only gives me high blood pressure so i am willing to try something different. the only problem is whether i can take my own advise when it comes to face to face meetings and disscussions.... we will see.

guest member, you must feel very insecure that a few naughty words on a screen upset you so much, go and grow up then you can join in with the adults.
( there i go again, but don't be fooled with my grown up approach, i like being childish too).

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:01 AM

Emma B, I suspect you've uncovered a worrying characteristic of the BNP. Namely that it's not just a sizeable number of voters who don't realise its true nature. I don't think a lot of their own members do either. I think they've joined because they are cheesed off with the major parties and see the BNP as a radical patriotic alternative.

The BNP appeals particularly to the politically clueless and naive. EG., Mrs Tovey-Jones. The best way to stop the buggars is to expose the leadership for the Hitler worshipping scum that they are.

Incidentally, it would be interesting to see how much of a correlation could be established between run down communities and BNP support. I say this because it seems likely to me that BNP electoral/membership success in Lancashire ex-mill towns and elsewhere may be due to loss of community following the destruction of local industries in the 1980s. Are we now reaping the whirlwind for the deeds of Margaret Thatcher?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:47 AM

hollering abuse and expletives at her from a safe distance I suspect is only going to throw someone back into the 'fellowship' of those they feel safer with

I don't know what you're talking about here Emma. Writing newspaper articles, producing websites, pamphlets, leaflets, securing media interviews, running web forums, letter-writing to local newspapers. That's activism.

Attending rallies, demos, pickets with a healthy cross-section of people includuding social workers, home-makers, teachers, students, solicitors, plumbers, academics. That is activism. As a marshal on some events I can assure you that there is no "hollering abuse and expletives from a safe distance" Hollering abuse and expletives is unlawful. Calling a member of a fascist party "A fascist" is lawful. Getting the truth out there, with solid supporting evidence, is lawful and necessary.

How did Tovey-Jones friends' come to know the truth, save for the efforts of anti-fascist activists. For that matter, every "truth" about the BNP stated in this thread and elsewhere can be sourced back to UAF or a trade-union or related website or publiation.

I say again, my interest is in getting the truth out there. People can use it to counsel their friends. I would do the same. Together we'll make BNP membership about as "acceptable" as paedophilia.

Like BNP Members and activists Ian Hindle and Andrew Wells, convicted in November 2008 of sex attacks on little girls. Members and activists of the same BNP promising to save this country from a tidal wave of filth and "nonces", in their parlance.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST, Inertial observer
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:46 AM

One test of the BNP is to observe its actions. Over on the Facebook "Folk against Fascism" page BNP trolls are routinely impersonating other people, and lying about, for example, receiving pms from Mudcat mambers. I don't think they deserve any good manners from others.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:33 AM

Emma, please have a look at cllr's original post.

Joe Offer

London is the most ethnically diverse city I've ever seen - but most of the inland population 50 miles north of London is lily-white, and they're scared of all the immigrants who have moved to their country.

Luton is 32 miles north of London. I respect your point of view, but please try and find out what you are talking about before condemning whole areas of the UK as racists.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:19 AM

Royston, it has been reported that Corinne Tovey-Jones withdrew after negative comments from friends.

If you and your colleagues are prepared to befriend George and discuss the racist origins, core policy and belief of the current BNP with her person to person then you too have my respect but, hollering abuse and expletives at her from a safe distance I suspect is only going to throw someone back into the 'fellowship' of those they feel safer with


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM

Emma B

You are absolutely 100% right.

However, people like Mrs. Tovey-Jones are only learning the truth because of the efforts of people like me and my colleagues.

You can't have damascene conversions unless the truth is getting out there in an effective and impacting way.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:43 AM

I wish I'd spoken out before as I feel nothing but respect for people like jeddy and greensue who HAVE been prepared to speak against the use of violent language and abuse etc directed towards one individual that ape the actions of many BNP thugs themselves.
I also support the sentiments expressed by Crow sister earlier today whole heartedly

If anyone thinks I'm an apologist for the BNP let them read my posts over the last few years and talk to me about my earlier experiences opposing the National Front


Remember the case of Mrs Tovey-Jones, who stood as a BNP candidate in the Nunnery division in Worcester

Corinne Tovey-Jones wanted to withdraw after 'discovering' the BNP were a racist and anti-democratic descendant of the National Front, but was told by Worcester City Council that it was too late to remove her candidature.

Mrs Tovey-Jones complained to the Worcester News that the BNP had doctored her candidature statement to include comments about the "anti-social behaviour" of (ethnic) minorities - a comment Tovey Jones insists that she does not agree with and would not have said.

She joined the racist far right party shortly after her husband was laid off. She was told by her neighbour, a BNP activist, that "you can't get a job at the moment, they just go to Polish people".

This is typical of the BNP and their ilk - they are opportunstic and will exploit the ignorance, anger, and frustration of working people to sow their seeds of division and hate.

Mrs Tovey Jones, whose brother in law is Italian, tried to pull out of the local elections because she "doesn't want people thinking I'm racist", but as it was too late to withdraw asked Worcester people NOT to vote for her.


It may be unusual for an individual to stand as a candidate for the fascists without fully realising how deep the bigotry runs, but it is far from unusual for working people, unaware of the true colours of Griffin's Gang, and in anger at the mainstream political class, to give their votes to the BNP at the polls as could be seen from the results of the EU elections


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:26 AM

Joe,

And Royston, since you state that you know nothing about MBSGeorge

It's hard work reading everything on a web-forum (I manage one elsewhere in the ether) but I did not state that at all. She has told us an awful lot about her socio-political views by becoming a prominent member of a political party. I stated my opinion that I, personally, don't need to know anything more about her in the context of a debate about her politics.

You may argue that I am wrong to hold that opinion, I respect your view, but my opinion is not based on "knowing nothing".

you'll solidify her support of the BNP if you continue to use threats and lies

I would be concerned if there were lies, or that you thought there were lies, told here about the BNP. Please can you point out the examples - I will either bring back the proof or offer clarification to anyone that may have made such a mistake.

I am unconcerned about the sensibilities of members of the BNP. As an activist, there isn't time for it. We are shouting the truth, with irrefutable supporting evidence, about the BNP from the rooftops in order to repudiate their recruiting calls. The truth will deter reasonable or "intelligent, misguided" people from joining and will encourage some to hand back their membership cards.

Crow Sister says she has met some "misguided" BNP converts, well I haven't. And I've spoken to more BNP sympathisers (members of the public not even party-members) on protests and rallies than I care to remember. Even if you calmly tell the truth about the BNP and hand out evidence packs, you know what they tell you? "We don't care, so what if a few (insert any racist insult) get sent back home!"

The harsh reality is that there are a sizeable constituency of people who are stupid and amoral enough to turn a blind eye. Like in Nazi Germany. Then there are racists who just don't care what happens to someone else and then there are the active supporters of the BNP who revel in their nastiness. You can't reach these groups.

The MBSGeorge types (assuming her to fall into this category) of middle class rural types that somehow fell or drifted into the BNP orbit, are not really the problem, they are not important. They will either get the message or the won't.

That's why I have repeatedly condemned her politics and political choices and offered the opinion that "She ain't worth it", let her get on with it. Keep fighting fascism, George will either return to society or she won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:54 AM

I hope by the way that MBS George does decide to announce that she has left the BNP.

I would love to hear from an ex BNP member what it was that they think made them turn towards such a treacherous ally.

I think that an ex BNP member with insight and a clear voice could work very usefully to change the minds of the undecided in a positive way.

I hope MBS George is the type of BNP member who has been duped and not the type that agrees that immigrants to europe should have their boats sunk in the middle of the meditteranean and be left to drown.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:35 AM

"It's my opinion that most BNP supporters have been duped. If they understood what the BNP is really about, they'd look for an alternative."

Maybe - but someone has to do the duping ...

so who's duping and who's duped?

... absolutely no idea ...

But one thing they have in common is that they all, in equal measure, give life to the same hideous beast.


On the point of Who is and who isn't a fascist ...

I I call someone an idiot or scum or somethig like that then tha is of course abuse.

If I say Joe is a fascist because I disagree with some aspect of the way he helps out here, that is also an insult and would be very unfair.


However, that line of thought does not apply to MBS George.

This line does:

What do you call someone who stands for the republican party? - A republican.

What do you call someone who stands for the democratic party? - a democrat ...

... see where I'm going with this? ..

A conservative supporter, let alone candidate, is a tory, a liberal is a whig ...

a BNP candidate is a Neo-Nazi - because they are a candidate for the Neo-Nazi party.

MBS George is a BNP supporter and representative.

MBS George is a Neo-Nazi.


If there is anything insulting about this post could somebody please highlight what and explain why.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:32 AM

"Bruce, why call yourself "peace" when you describe other members as XXXX ? Peace means peace. You are bad tempered and use words that Joe should not allow on the cat."

And you'd be the best judge of that right? Have you spoken against the BNP? Even under your member name? You think bad words are a problem? How about the BNP platform of ethnic cleansing? Their policies of racism? But you are very much like them. They too post under 'guest' identities.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM

Why do you not take issue with the scum called the BNP?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:06 AM

Piss off.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:02 AM

I think Joe Offer and Jeddy make good points.

I know the kinds of people that the BNP are targeting with their campaign, white, working class, fucked off with New Labour. And they're not all slobs, lots of them are hardworking and never been out of a job before... and they feel betrayed ('someone must be to blame'). Some of them are natural born jerks, most of them are not highly intellectual, but most are generally OK people who just believe what they read in the papers, and most of them don't think to enquire further about what they are told.

A combination of Capitalist greed gone tits up and The Daily Mail (et al), has created a perfect ferment of distrust and anger needed for groups like the BNP to gain mass support. I'd rather understand George's motivations than condemn her. I think we could be on a very slippery slope if more people are not simply *encouraged* to look a bit more closely at what they've been spoon-fed by the papers, and at what truly lies beneath the surface veneer of the BNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 03:26 AM

it is precisely because the latter of the two types can eventually be brought round by reasoned argument that we do not have to resort to the methods of the diehard BNP supporters methods.

The more they begin to realise that they lack the ability for debate and discussion that they will resort more to violence... the fist, yhe viloence, the nail bomb, and that will diminish them more than any argument as their true colour would rise to the surface again, and they will only get votes from their nazi/fascist/skinhead lackies.


Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: greensue
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 03:24 AM

Oh gosh, there are days when i can't spell. I don't think I'm the only one. Like it really matters. There are days when I don't quite make sense, so I'm a person. Join the club.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:50 PM

having spoken to george, i think there are some things going on in her private life which she would rather not share as is her right.

i agree that she may not be a BNP member for long, let us hope that she can sort out her problems and then be strong enough to admit the huge mistake she has made.

we all know what the BNP and their diehard supporters are like and the lengths they will go to to get a new recruite.

to my mind there are two types of BNP supporters, theones who are in the know ..and the ones who are lied to and bullied into submission.. ok three .. the ones who are too lazy to do their homework and voted for them.

two of those types can be brought around with patience and kindness, the other one?...you will never be able to reason with and it is those ones i don't have a clue how to tackle. we cannot resort to their level and use violence, the law is having problems shutting them up, so what is left?

i will admit to having a somewhat quick tongue in person, so i thnk i would be a hipocrite when it comes tpo putting this into practise face to face. over the net it is easier for me to control my temper and think before i type.

i am yet to make sense of some of thesae posts so will come back for a second read in the morning, when my brain sort of works.

take care all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:50 PM

Thanks, Joe.

Richard asked me to cool it, so I will.

If I owe Russ an apology he'll get one.

However, I do not think that's the case.

Anyway, I'll stay off this thread for a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:40 PM

I think Russ Meyer was trying to voice support for you, Bruce.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:12 PM

OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:04 PM

This thread is righteous. Let it run.


Ah, yes, Roston, I think I knew that, but on this occasion we appreciate it.



Joe - try Gravesend (maybe 30 miles south east of London, depending on where you measure from) and the Medway Towns (just a bit further down the A2): best damn places to get a curry or Thai meal for hundreds of miles, bhangra/rock fusion bands, past or present Sikh mayors, an Asian bloke called "Jungle" (after his preferred music) used to turn up to watch my daughter's heavy rock band, etc, etc.


Peace: chill. We live with these people (if that is the right word) daily.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 08:07 PM

"Oh dear Bruce, so you have been posting under a false identity !
Well spotted Joe.
I think the sooner you close this thread the better, it has ran too long."

Dear Guest,russ meyers. You may be a big shot in Armitage, Rugeley, Staffordshire, but you're just another guttersnipe as far as I'm concerned. Nice country in that area, though.

Fuck with me again and you'll wish your mother had never given birth to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:56 PM

Yes, I am what?

On this occasion, contemptuous and condescending.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:38 PM

I posted a brilliant message, and it disappeared. Damn.

Anyhow, as I was saying, I will agree completely that the BNP is insidious and deceptive. Their Website (click) shows that they are masters of deception. It's my opinion that most BNP supporters have been duped. If they understood what the BNP is really about, they'd look for an alternative. But you're not going to win BNP supporters over, if you insist on using Storm Trooper tactics to oppose them. The way to defeat the BNP, is to strip the party naked of any semblance of respectability, so you can expose the thugs at the center of the party for what they are.

I've corresponded with MBSGeorge several times, and she seems like a very nice person. If you can answer her concerns and give her a rational alternative, I think you'll find she won't be a BNP member for very long. But you'll solidify her support of the BNP if you continue to use threats and lies and browbeating and the whole array of tactics of the very Nazi Stormtroopers you profess to oppose.

London is the most ethnically diverse city I've ever seen - but most of the inland population 50 miles north of London is lily-white, and they're scared of all the immigrants who have moved to their country. The same is true for the Midwest U.S. north of Detroit and Milwaukee and Minneapolis and Denver, and for California north of Sacramento (like ther right-wing area where I live). These people are scared, and they're arming themselves and joining right-wing organizations that are pretty scary themselves. But you won't win them over by scaring them more. Somehow, you have to answer their fears and prove that the immigrants aren't so frightening. It's a hard job, and one that won't be accomplished by scare tactics.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:59 PM

Gervase, do you know what Greensue means by that astounding agglomeration of words (and the occasional collision of letters that is not, properly, a word)? It baffles me.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:17 PM

Joe:
Me stalking George? Her BNP candidature came out of the blue to me, and having met the woman and sung with her, I wanted to know why. I've asked that question a few times in the open forum, but received no answer. Someone suggested I send her a PM, which I did. No answer. I sent her an email via Facebook. No answer.
I'm sorry, but if someone puts themselves up for election for public office and gets taxpayers' money to help fund that campaign, it isn't stalking to want to know their reasons.
Joe, with the greatest respect, I'd suggest that you're out of your comfort zone here. It's up to you if you want to do the three wise monkeys trick and simply pull the thread, thus pretending that all's right with the world and that there's still apple pie for tea, but I am not prepared to sit on my hands and be polite while my tradition is hijacked by fascists and people I like and respect are made to feel threatened by the scum from the BNP.

Greensue:
You appear to know a lot about George's thoughts and motivations.
I have seen some of the stupid questins asked by Gervase and it is no wonder she did not reply.
How? Were you privy to the one private message I sent, or to the single email I sent via Facebook? If that counts as 'invading' BNP George's Facebook page, then I plead guilty.
Perhaps, with your gift of telepathy, you could answer some of my 'stupid questins' on her behalf. And, while you're about it, which ones would you say were 'stupid'? Number 3? Maybe Number 9? Or was it Number 13?
Did you know that mbs george only joined the bnp because they were the only party to issue a policy against low paid brittons (of any colour) needing housing. If either your or BNP George actually believe that then your naivete is breathtaking. The truth is out there - just Google it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:39 PM

Yes, I am what?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:09 PM

greensue,

"Gervaise Webb, sorry if i've misspelt your name, icant seem to flick backwards and forwards on these pages yet.
I do believe George will be around in August, please sit down with her and ask the questions personally. I for one would be interested. I have very little politics myself, but I do realise that the BNP is a hated organisation ( yes I do understand why)even though their modern political statements seem a lot gentler than the old ones. I wouldn't think of the right questions to ask.
I spend a lot of time in a wheelchair and so far she has not tried to push me off the pier."

It's good that George has a friend like you. However, as for 'stalking'--the BNP does that shit. You OK with that, sue? You OK with the fact that George stood for election? You OK with the policies of the BNP?

"The British National Party are not just racist- they are every 'ist' under the sun. Unfortunately, they've recently been given the opportunity to share their unbelievably terrible views with the European Parliament.

A couple of DisAbled people, who wish to be known only as Harry Thomas and Cerebral Person, were horrified, terrified and disgusted when they discovered that, in response to the death of Ivan Cameron, son of David Cameron, leader of the Conservative Party, senior BNP member Jeffery Marshall claimed in an internet forum discussion: "We live in a country today which is unhealthily dominated by an excess of sentimentality towards the weak and unproductive. No good will come of it."

Later, in response to comments made by others on the site, Marshall is alleged to have written: "There is not a great deal of point in keeping these people alive after all."

He said that the comments were taken out of context. However, we choose not to believe him. We feel we have good reasons to be against the BNP.

So, we have set up a brand new blog called DisAbled People Against The BNP.

This blog was born out of frustration. We hope to use it to prove to a certain politician that we are not at all unproductive!

We have big plans for this blog, so watch this space! Whether you are DisAbled, like both of us, or you simply agree that attitudes like Jeffery Marshall's are unacceptable, we welcome your support and are both very grateful for it.

Cerebral Person can be reached on cerebralperson@hotmail.co.uk"


Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:09 PM

Greensue, That is exactly like saying "Hitler wasn't so bad, he got the trains to run on time".

I have no idea what you are saying. What "good" BNP policy are you referring to? Please translate to English the phrase

they were the only party to issue a policy against low paid brittons (of any colour) needing housing.

What, they have a policy AGAINST low paid Britons? How are they going to make all Britons highly paid?

Or are you saying that they have found a way of removing Britons' need for housing? How? Free tents? Caravans?

Are they, more likely, planning to round up the homeless and send them to gas chambers, thereby reducing demand/need for housing.

And before the rest of you start, YES I AM! And no, I will not apologise.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: greensue
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:52 PM

Did you know that mbs george only joined the bnp because they were the only party to issue a policy against low paid brittons (of any colour) needing housing.
And yes I believe invading mbs Georges facebook page without beig asked to join is stalking.
I have seen some of the stupid questins asked by Gervase and it is no wonder she did not reply.


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