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BS: BNP: What would you do?

Cllr 20 May 09 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Joe P 20 May 09 - 11:46 AM
Emma B 20 May 09 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,jeddy 20 May 09 - 11:53 AM
Liz the Squeak 20 May 09 - 12:13 PM
Gervase 20 May 09 - 12:24 PM
TheSnail 20 May 09 - 01:02 PM
Michael 20 May 09 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,lox 20 May 09 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,lox 20 May 09 - 01:19 PM
fiddler 20 May 09 - 01:48 PM
Paul Burke 20 May 09 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,lox 20 May 09 - 02:03 PM
Wesley S 20 May 09 - 02:53 PM
Cats 20 May 09 - 02:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 May 09 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,lox 20 May 09 - 04:51 PM
wysiwyg 20 May 09 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,lox 20 May 09 - 05:16 PM
Cats 20 May 09 - 05:20 PM
Richard Bridge 20 May 09 - 05:26 PM
Mrs.Duck 20 May 09 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Daily Mail reader 20 May 09 - 05:30 PM
Leadfingers 20 May 09 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,lox 20 May 09 - 05:47 PM
Cats 20 May 09 - 05:56 PM
Sorcha 20 May 09 - 06:05 PM
Steve Hunt 20 May 09 - 06:39 PM
Cats 20 May 09 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Daily Mail reader 20 May 09 - 07:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 May 09 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,Daily Mail reader 20 May 09 - 07:38 PM
wysiwyg 20 May 09 - 08:28 PM
Richard Bridge 20 May 09 - 09:15 PM
Peace 20 May 09 - 09:16 PM
fiddler 21 May 09 - 03:26 AM
Gervase 21 May 09 - 03:40 AM
Smedley 21 May 09 - 03:44 AM
mandotim 21 May 09 - 03:46 AM
Smedley 21 May 09 - 03:48 AM
goatfell 21 May 09 - 04:08 AM
Richard Bridge 21 May 09 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Daily Mail reader 21 May 09 - 04:41 AM
TheSnail 21 May 09 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,lox 21 May 09 - 04:49 AM
mandotim 21 May 09 - 04:59 AM
Joe Offer 21 May 09 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Daily Mail reader 21 May 09 - 05:36 AM
fiddler 21 May 09 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Cats 21 May 09 - 05:50 AM
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Subject: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Cllr
Date: 20 May 09 - 11:36 AM

A friend of mine has decided to stand for BNP in the local elections I feel shocked and betrayed and tried to persuade them not to do so when i found out back at the end of February. It is now public knowlege as it is published on the relevent website.

I have worked for the CPS on incitement to racial hatred cases back in the nineties and despite being accused of being a rascist by simply being a Conservative but I've striven to oppose biggotry when I have come across it.

I hope i am a loyal friend to those that are close to me but this is too much. I am deeply saddend but i feel i must end my friendship with this person. I suppose the question is what would you do if you found yourself in this position?

Mike aka Cllr
    See previous thread (English Fair Fund is BNP Front ), which has been closed.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 20 May 09 - 11:46 AM

The same. I have tolerated friends with 'extreme' views, but this would be a step too far for me. I would also make sure you let them know clearly what you are doing and why.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 09 - 11:49 AM

Sad to say Mike, however much I value friendship, I probably would do the same.

We may not always agree on our 'politics' over a glass or two of wine but I too have been active in opposing racism throughout my adult life and, like you, would feel deeply saddened and betrayed to find a friend associated with such a blatently racist organization never mind prepared to represent their repugnant views.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,jeddy
Date: 20 May 09 - 11:53 AM

exactly the same as you have done. on some things there can be no compromise. i can undrestand that this situation has made you feel sad and probably betrayed. the bnp to me represent people equivelent to those who introduced apathied and need to be shuned in decent society. it is their problem and should not make you feel uncomfortable or guilty.
take care


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 May 09 - 12:13 PM

Standing with you Cllr... you know where we are.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Gervase
Date: 20 May 09 - 12:24 PM

I think you've done the right thing, Mike. If someone has those sort of beliefs, then there can be little enough in common to justify continuing a friendship.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 May 09 - 01:02 PM

Is it too late to save your friend from his own folly? Apart from their policies, behind the suits the BNP are a bunch of racist thugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Michael
Date: 20 May 09 - 01:04 PM

And there's the risk of being tarred with the same brush.

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 May 09 - 01:10 PM

I would show him this Video of Nick Griffen speaking to supporters of David Dukes (of KKK fame) about how to make racist policies seem more politically correct.

"... Instead of 'Racial Purity' say 'Identity' ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 May 09 - 01:19 PM

Then I would show him this video of Nick Griffin denying the holocaust.

"nonsense about gas chambers"

If he still persisted with his desire stand on a BNP ticket after that then I would organize all our mutual friends to disrupt every speech he made.

Some people choose the BNP because they thin they are honestly just an ordinary caring party who are awake to problems caused by immigration that other parties are irresponsibly ignoring.

They make this choice out of ignorance.

If they carry on afterwards and choose to be associated with views like griffins as shown clearly in the videos above, then they should be treated as advocates of those views, i.e, with utmost caution and utter refusal to agree on any level with any of their "milder" views.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: fiddler
Date: 20 May 09 - 01:48 PM

Sadly it is a catter, I made a comment on their facebook page which they deleted!

And it was very benign comment.

Cllr

There are lots of us with you.

Andy


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 May 09 - 01:52 PM

You did the right thing cllr- hats off to an honest Tory- as I said in another vthread, the racism, is a deliberate choice, there are several non- racist rightwing parties he could have chosen.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 May 09 - 02:03 PM

Fiddler,

How about posting those videos on his facebook page.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 May 09 - 02:53 PM

I had a old friend who couldn't stand Barack Obama and sent me all of the e-mail rumors and stories ect. That's all well and good. I've got no problem with him disliking his policies. But when he sent me nude pictures that were supposed to have been of Barack Obamas mother I thought it was the last straw. Not even the Mafia goes after someones mother. And that's from the party of "family values"?? I asked him to remove me from his mailing list and I haven't heard from him since. I won't miss him.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Cats
Date: 20 May 09 - 02:54 PM

I stand alongside all of you here. It is a great pity that she has decided to stand as the BNP candidate in Chippenham. I have sent her a personal message saying I respect any views she may hold, as she is entitled to, but when we come face to face she is obliged, under the rules of the BNP, to out me and take me on publicly. I am, and as you all know, have been for a great many years, an active trade unionist and anti fascist campaigner and this has led to my name being on the Red Watch Hit List. This is a list published by BNP and other fascist organisations which give out names and addresses and photographs of known 'reds' and who all BNP members must do everything they can to discredit in any way possible. Some people on the list have had their houses daubed with paint and excrement put through their doors and all beacause we stand up for what we believe in. I am openly campaigning to have BNP barred from being teachers in line with the bar in many other of the public services. With their views on the holocaust etc how could they teach history? Teachers shape the future which is why they want to get in. If any of you are free on 30th May and are in the Stoke area, Love Music Hate Racism are holding a rock concert, check out their website.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 May 09 - 02:59 PM

The only honourable response Cllr.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:51 PM

I'm not convinced that endng the friendship is the answer as it could end up isolating the person and causing them to entrench themselves further.

I believe the answer would be to confront them with the support of mutual associates.


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Subject: RE: BNP: What would you do?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:06 PM

I hope i am a loyal friend to those that are close to me but this is too much.

Forgive me not reading the whole thread. This statement jumped out at me as the relevant portion.

You asked what we would do. I'd like to think I could be a friend AND respect my beliefs, and I'd try to do it something like this:

"I hope you can understand that my position on the BNP is diametrically and firmly opposed to yours, and if our friendship is to continue it must be with a clear undertanding on that point. I believe a day will come when you regret your aligning yourself with them, and until that day comes it will be best if we do not discuss the BNP, at all. I stand ready to be there for you on the day when you realize you can't stomach them. Can we remain friends on that basis?"


Because.... I think anyone you HAVE respected will probably get to that stomach-turning day before too long, and he is really going to need a friend, then. If you cut it off now, he will not know he can turn to you. The cutting-off will be in the way, see? So I would expect of myself to sacrifice my own comfort-level (it would be very hard) to the greater need I believe my friend will have of me.

YOU have to do what YOU think is best, but that's what I hope I'd attempt to do, myself, which is what you asked. I don't envy you the decision. It's a bad place to be in, all the way around.


Abrazos,

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:16 PM

I disagree Susan.

I'm with you on the point of continuing to see someone as your friend and yet staying true to your beliefs, but I disagree completely about saying nothing.

If they are standing as a political candidate then they need to get used to being accountable.

That starts with friends.

"how do you reconcile being a candidate for a party whose leader gives advice on how to make nazi language sound PC?"

and

"How do you reconcile being in a party who denies the overwhelming evidence that the holocaust happened and that has the same policies as the Nazis who perpetrated it?"

And you do it till they see the error of their ways or crack and do something stupid.

And you contact their all their friends and family and sustain the pressure on him.

Denial is at the heart of extreme politics, whether extreme Nationalist, extreme communist, extreme islamist or extreme christian fundamentalist.

To tackle it you have to confront them with the thing they are trying to deny.

Cutting off friendships, or compounding the denial by ignoring the subject allows it to grow and fester in the dark.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Cats
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:20 PM

Lox, we have to confront which is why I would love to be in an open hustings with them


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:26 PM

Don T knows I will happily call him a fascist bastard any day of the week. He of course will call me a gin-and-jaguar-belt revolutionary.

Another now deceased 'catter knew that I refused to co-operate in going with him to Tolpuddle one year on the ground that I would not be party to taking a fascist there.

Yet somehow we remain(ed) mostly friends.

But if denying the holocaust renders one unfit to teach (not on the ground that that is racist claptrap, but on the ground that it is stupid and proves inability to learn or teach history) why is the same not true of creationists who teach science?

Communists of course are never extreme, or in denial, but the observers of the truth about humanity that the rest of the world deines (grin). Oh, and also pillars of the UK folk establishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:28 PM

I'd have thought much less of you had you done otherwise, Mike. There are some things that friendship cannot ignore.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:30 PM

Your friend has opened his eyes Cllr. I respect him, as should you. The good Lord has graced him.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:43 PM

I note that the only 'Supporter' of your friend makes sure he/she is totally anonymous Mike ! I am with you on this , despite the fact that you are a Tory !!! LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:47 PM

Daily Mail Reader is a parody we have seen here before.

I think very funny.

Though in this case parodying an american stereotype.

You need to be thinking more along the lines of Gary Bushell or Richard LittleJohn.

"I had that Gordon Brown in the back of my cab once ..." etc


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Cats
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:56 PM

Says it all if they read, and believe, anything in the Mail :-)
Richard, I appreciate your comment and hope you realise it was just one example. I could cite many others but it would not be helpful here unless you want a 5,000 word essay!
I hope SHE [it's a woman not a man] changes her views and sees sense. The BNP have said that this year they are targetting women and folkies.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:05 PM

Mike, I'm with you too, for what it's worth from the US. I'm finding this a bit difficult to believe!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1DkVljeRfM


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Cats
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:56 PM

Excellent video, says it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 20 May 09 - 07:02 PM

So how do you think the party will fair in the June elections ?

Would be nice to hear your predictions so we can reflect on them in a few weeks time.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 May 09 - 07:16 PM

I don't think there's anyone here who gives a s**t about what YOU think would be nice.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 20 May 09 - 07:38 PM

Do you have a vote in the June election Don ?

Do you accept election results or do you huff ?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 May 09 - 08:28 PM

I disagree Susan.

I'm with you on the point of continuing to see someone as your friend and yet staying true to your beliefs, but I disagree completely about saying nothing.

If they are standing as a political candidate then they need to get used to being accountable.

That starts with friends.



The thing is, someone who is rigid-minded will not hear a thing said against their position until they are ready to hear it. THAT is when a good friend can stand in firm support--- when the wrongminded one looks for a place to turn toward as they turn away from the bad decisions they have made.... if one remains in communication on "safer" fronts until that time comes, one can accomplish quite a lot. (We do it all the time with our children, don't we, to keep the door open to a better day?)

See, I think the "candidate" will have more than enough attacks against their position to reinforce and entrench that position. A friend can sometimes work more "sense" by just staying away from that tack and quietly being the excellent person they already are. See? It's not an easy path, but it's an available one. Sometimes love is the stronger vehicle to reach a wayward heart.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 09 - 09:15 PM

I have it!

The brilliance of the small hours!

Let's send them back where they came from. Of course, if, when we trace all the parents and grandparents and great-grandparents etc it turns out that some of the forbears came from different countries (as the odds seem to be) we'll have to cut them up into bits to make sure the right bits go back to the right places. But that would be fair, wouldn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 09 - 09:16 PM

Offer him the choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: fiddler
Date: 21 May 09 - 03:26 AM

Hello all,

I love the humour here as well as the serious comments, though it is a very serious subject.

First let me say he is a she and has emailed me to say

"Not keeping it quiet but would rather keep political discussions private."

So why stand for public office?

As many of the newspapers in UK have - in some, but not all cases quite rightly - shown no aspect of your life from call girls (or boys) to political expenses are private once you are in public office or standing for such in an election.

I have watched quietly and will try to remain so - I have lost a friend - hopefully only temporarily - and I don't mean only until after she is not elected - for that I am sad. I hope she is not elected it would be a sad reflection on the town of Chippenham.

I am however equally concerned that the post that appeared here yesterday naming her has been censored.

Joe or your operatives - sorry - this is public knowledge and is available in Chippenham as anywhere in UK on the council web site. I think you were wrong on that one - sorry.

http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/council/elections/electioncandidates09/electioncandidatedetails.htm?division=chippenhamcepenparkandredlands

Andy
    If it's public knowledge, then probably there's no reason why the candidate shouldn't be named publicly - George Dale is the name, I believe. There was an anonymous post deleted that may be the one you refer to. The coward who "named names" didn't have the courage to give his own name, so his post was deleted - because the post was anonymous, not because of the content of the message. Your complaint of "censorship" is a little deceptive, isn't it?
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Gervase
Date: 21 May 09 - 03:40 AM

Thanks for that, Andy. I have to say I'm surprised and disappointed - though the music world is a broad church, so I suppose it shouldn't come as a huge surprise to see all extremes reflected there. Saddening, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Smedley
Date: 21 May 09 - 03:44 AM

Am I misreading the link - that constituency has a BNP candidate but their name is male.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: mandotim
Date: 21 May 09 - 03:46 AM

Mike; as one who is politically poles apart from you, I am standing here mentally applauding your courage. First to share this dreadful dilemma publically, and secondly to follow a moral course of action when deciding questions of politics. Bravo; you have 100% support from me.
Tim


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Smedley
Date: 21 May 09 - 03:48 AM

And I forgt to say - this person has chosen to end the friendship, not you, by aligning herself with such despicable views.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: goatfell
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:08 AM

My sister and nephew are both racists I hate the racsisim but I love my sister and nephew


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:29 AM

There is a person with whom I am acquainted who used to attend a folk ale to which I go.

Recently (ish) she has developed a relationship with a piece of scum on legs, and has even canvassed and stood for the BNP.

The scum and its spawn came very close to wrecking the folk ale - Mercedes with doors open and wireless blaring Metallica, homophobic remarks to a gay friend of mine, "Well you're all just a bunch of dids aren't you?" to a Romany participant (who scored well with the reply "When you can tell me what it means it may be worth discussing it with you").

I can't separate that behaviour from the person.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:41 AM

The post above is a fine example of that Joe Offer spoke about on the other thread.

Unfortunately these sort of dispicable comments is what can be expected from the like of this Bridge person as it becomes ever clearer that BNP are winning hearts and minds all over the Country,expect a lot more of it too as polling day gets ever closer,the opposition here are getting more and more worried.

I feel sorry for you Mr. Bridge, this election will prove to be one bridge too far for you I feel. Accept the result and be a good boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:46 AM

It look as as if Daily Mail Reader needs to catch up on their reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:49 AM

Folks.
Listen up.
Daily Mail Reader has made a fundamental point which we should pay attention to.
There is an election coming up for the european parliament and the BNP stands to do well in them.
Why?

2 reasons.
1. Proportional representation in EU elections means that they they don't need to have a masive turnout to win representation in the european parliament.
2. Everyonee is so dissillusioned by the thought of Brown, Darling et al, and so nauseated by the thought of Cameron Osborne et al, that they people are saying they won't vote.

There may be some salt in the jelly and some mustard in the ice cream, but either of them is better than being force fed BNP cake because you didn't choose when you had the chance.

So Daily Mail Reader is right to ask - are you going to vote or are you going to stamp your feet afterwards?

The activist is not the one who points out that the river is dirty, but the one who cleans it up.

Vote - and keep them out of power.

And tell your friends to vote and to pass it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: mandotim
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:59 AM

Pastor Niemoller's famous quote (his own preferred version)
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Proportional representation allows the BNP access to funding if they win seats. Not voting at all will help their cause tremendously. Time to speak up.
Tim


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 09 - 05:07 AM

We have the same thing here in California - Xenophobe vigilantes who take it upon themselves to fortify the Mexican border to protect us from the "browning of America." They make me sick, and the fact that they're constantly gaining power is frightening.

In the other thread, I mentioned that Micca and I had encountered a BNP supporter on a bus in London. He was drunk, and Micca said he sounded like a Scotsman. He went to every passenger on the bus, demanding to see each person's citizenship papers, complaining how all those "foreigners" didn't belong there. Since I was one of the few people on the bus with a light complexion, he came to me looking for sympathy. I told him, "I'm not a citizen of your country, sir; and I certainly don't agree with you."

Daily Mail Reader, is that my comment from the other thread that you're referring to?

I think we need to recognize that we are all immigrants, that we have what we have because we happen to be lucky - so we have a moral obligation to share with those who have less.

Most of the "immigrants" I saw in England, came from lands that had been part of the British Empire. Their immigration is very much a result of British Imperialism.

I am of European ancestry and live in California, a land that once belonged to Mexico until it was taken over as a result of American imperialism. I think it's appalling that so many Americans, descendants of immigants themselves, have the gall to complain about Mexicans immigrating to a land that once was part of Mexico.

I believe wholeheartedly that all people have a fundamental right to immigrate to safe places where they can find housing and employment - especially if their home lands have been affected by imperialism. Wouldn't you agree, Daily Mail Reader?

-Joe Offer, Colfax, California-


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 21 May 09 - 05:36 AM

People have the right to vote as they please and people should respect and accept the result. I feel Britain will once again become agreat country enjoying the British way of life.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: fiddler
Date: 21 May 09 - 05:38 AM

Britain is a great country and should celebrate it's multi-culturalism proudly.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP: What would you do?
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 21 May 09 - 05:50 AM

It's time for me to get on my soap box again! My grandmother was imprisoned for her work as a suffragette, force fed, became part of the Cat and Mouse Act 'catch 22' situation so that women and working class men had the right to vote. It is now time for the grandchildren of those gallant and courageous women to pick where they left off and Use the vote they won for us. On election day, if for no other reason than to remember what they gave up for us and to honour their memory, go and use your vote.


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Mudcat time: 18 February 2:57 PM EST

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