mudcat.org: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying

Stringsinger 17 Mar 09 - 01:06 PM
greg stephens 17 Mar 09 - 01:07 PM
The Sandman 17 Mar 09 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 18 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM
Leadfingers 18 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 18 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM
melodeonboy 18 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM
Gedi 18 Mar 09 - 09:15 AM
TheSnail 18 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 18 Mar 09 - 12:07 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 18 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM
wrotham-arms-jen 19 Mar 09 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 19 Mar 09 - 06:30 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 19 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Mar 09 - 01:42 PM
BB 19 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM
Willie-O 19 Mar 09 - 05:47 PM
Girl Friday 21 Mar 09 - 06:15 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM
Les in Chorlton 22 Mar 09 - 08:06 AM
Mr Happy 22 Mar 09 - 01:11 PM
Jack Taylor 22 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM
synbyn 22 Mar 09 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC 23 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:06 PM

i think what we are looking at is a shift in the nature of how music interacts with society. It was assumed in the US that professionalism was attached to the amount of income a musician receives. Now with the economic slump in the world music has become less of
a commodity and more of an avocation. I think this is good news for folk music in general.

There will always be those who find a living in it, however. This is not dependent on economic or social conditions but a confluence of acceptance by the public and a willingness to look beyond the usual parameters of folkdom for an audience.

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:07 PM

I have just done a little research as someone is suggesting I go and see this Norcsalordie, and I don't know much about them (except they seem to be able to enthuse and annoy folkies, which sounds a reasonable combination to me!). I have just looked at their schedule and I am flabbergasted. They are the real deal and no mistake. Criss-crossing England playing pubs, night after night. Shrewsbury to Grantham to Shrewsbury. Fantastic stuff, fair play to them. I shall assuredly go and see them in Stone tomorrow, and I will shake their hands.(if they are too loud I won't stay, I think they may bne a bit young for me)
Their schedule reminds of the Boat Band twenty years ago, another band that played pubs all the time, but never got booked in folk clubs.

For your interest, here is the current week of Norcsalordie's travels which I found on their website.: read and admire. I honestly didn't think there was anybody doing this any more.

Friday 13th - 21:00 Six Bells - 59 Ditherington Road - Shrewsbury - Shropshire - SY1 4BD
Saturday 14th - 20:30    Nobody Inn - North Street - Grantham - NG31 6NU
Sunday 15th - 20:30 Seven Stars - Old Coleham - Shrewsbury - SY3 7BP
Tuesday 17th - 20:30    ST PATRICK'S DAY - Brennans Bar - 13 Winsover Road - Spalding - PE11 1EG
Wednesday 18th - 21.30 Swan Inn - 18 Stafford Street - Stone - Staffordshire - ST15 8QW
Friday 20th - 20:00 Crown & Anchor - Senwick Road - Wellingborough - Northants - NN8 1NJ
Saturday 21st - 21:00 The White Hart - 51/52 East Reach - Taunton - Somerset - TA1 3EZ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:12 PM

I havent quit yet.http://www.dickmiles.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM

Hi Greg - and anyone else who might fancy a trip to Stone tonight to support 'Folk music in the Wild' (I like that)

No I am not a member of the band although their progress and success is dear to me. Really glad you will be checking them out tonight that's the first barrier down :-) - I don't think I can say this without sounding corny but they really do appeal to folk of all ages - children to pensioners and most importantly all the ages in between

I shall be wearing the Norcsalordie tee-shirt - black with a large red N and the slogan "Folk for the Living" - that should upset a few more :-)

This week has been busy but unfortunately they have had a couple of late cancellations phoned through to them - the Crown and Anchor is putting back their gig and the White Hart is struggling for custom. On the bright side they were rebooked by the Six Bells, the Nobody Inn booked them for St Georges weekend this year and St Patrick's weekend 2010, the Seven Stars gave them three more dates for this year and last night Brennan's Bar asked them to play again for St Patrick's day 2010

Following this band you really get to see the health or otherwise of the pubs around the country - they have played to as few as two people and at other times it has been vitually impossible to get to the bar.

Normally they have to pay for their own drinks although they drink as much tap water as anything but a few pubs will stand them the first round - others are more generous and one gave them a meal before the start. Unfortunately they no longer appear at that one through intimidation from a very small section of the audience who did not recognise their own musical heritage and accused them of being Irish sympathisers although they had not sung a single Irish song all night!

On a very few occasions they have received a bonus payment at the end of the gig and a couple of times landlords have renaged on the previously agreed fee thereby putting themselves on the blacklist - verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on. At times when negotiating fees it has become apparent that the pub is simply after entertainment on the cheap but their days of playing for a pie and a pint are long gone

At the moment it is becoming more difficult to sell CDs which is probably a recession thing as in the past they have sold up to seven cds in a night - and the occasional Folk for the Living tee-shirt

SatNav is a blessing when visiting so many different venues and the arrival time prediction facility is a godsend

Very rarely do they get the rapt attention of the audience - normally the life of the pub continues around them so a PA is essential and the volume depends on the venue really - up for pubs that normally host rock music and down for the quieter pubs. It is of course largely possible for the audience to select their own preferred volume by where they position themselves in the pub as the sound reduces rapidly the more bodies it passes

As for the audience reception there are occasions when you really think that nobody is paying the slightest attention and you are flogging the proverbial dead horse - songs finish and nobody claps all evening until they say thank you and goodnight and the cries of 'more' start up and they won't let them go

Following the band has been a real treat and I feel privileged to have been along for the ride


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM

With regard to Landlords trying to NOT agree to pay , Membership of MU does include FREE legal assistance - and a verbal contract is STILL a contract !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM

the slogan "Folk for the Living" - that should upset a few more

Yes, I think it probably will. Very mixed feelings about this bunch - opening doors is great, but do they have to slam them shut behind them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM

'Also they recently played an extended floorspot at a club - they had just finished a very competent and well received version of The Barley Mow when one of the residents said in a loud voice for all to hear "you know you got that wrong don't you" and proceeded to sing his version'

That's appalling! No wonder people get turned off if there are bloody wiseacres around who do that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Gedi
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 09:15 AM

They sound an interesting pair, this Noscalardie (sp? Does that actually mean anything?)- they sound a bit like an English "Dubliners".

But I have to agree with Pip - "Folk for the Living" is pretty disparaging to the rest of us who enjoy immenseley the great tradition that is English Folk. And it will no doubt put off others who might otherwise have visited their local folk clubs. I wish them well but please, ask them not to trash the rest of us in their travels.

Ged


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM

It does seem to be damning yourself with faint praise to say that you stand out against the mediocrity of everybody else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 12:07 PM

Gedi - no I don't think Noscalardie does mean anything - unlike Norcsalordie

In Kent where they have gained a slim toehold within the establishment they have become friendly with Pig's Ear - a very traditional band. Norcsalordie had a gig in Suffolk at a rock pub and went down very well. They have used this contact to get a gig for Pig's Ear. Far from slamming doors that is opening them.

Expose people to folk music they like and they may wish to experiment further


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

Expose people to folk music they like and they may wish to experiment further

"Hey, you're not like all those half-dead beardie Aran-wearing finger-in-ear folkies... and you're not like all those half-dead beardie Aran-wearing finger-in-ear folkies... and he's not... and she certainly isn't... and he's got a beard and he's wearing an Aran jumper and he's old enough for a bus pass, but he's actually rather good..."

Yes, maybe they're setting people up for a voyage of discovery into the world of trad. Which is great. (That's the definition of having mixed feelings - some of them are positive!) I just wish it could start with "we're folk and we're great" - not "most folk is crap but we're great".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM

Reluctantly I wade into this thread because I know nothing about British pubs or their music but this may cast a bit of insight from an outsider. I do not often play at venues where alcohol is served because I find that the audience becomes noisy and less attentive as consumption increases. I usually play without expectation of compensation so I am independant as Hell. Mostly I play and sing at fundraisers, benefits etc. with a concert rather than a pub format. All that being said friends of mine, a few years ago, asked me to drop into a local pub where they were playing. They are a very talented family group of twelve siblings and each Saturday afternoon a few of them would perform there and the door receipts and proceeds from a 50/50 draw were to go to a local hospital. The place would be packed each Saturday, the pub owners made good on beer sales and the hospital benefited as well. I would be asked, and was always happy to do a couple of songs for a good cause, but for the most part I was audience. One day a younger brother in this sibling group brought with him a bottle of water to be consumed while he played. He was told in no uncertain terms by the pub owner that he was not permitted to bring his own water but would have to purchase the same at the bar. The oldest brother, the leader of the group, told the others to pack their instruments and they left never to return. They had no trouble finding another place to play but that pub never again was packed on a Saturday afternoon. All for the price of a bottle of water.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: wrotham-arms-jen
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:26 AM

Sandy, to me a 'public house' means that - as soon as you start charging a door fee it loses that quality. As far as I know Britain is the only place with true pubs where you invite people into your home to buy a drink. The relationship between landlord and customer is not a service relationship, but a friend. That is why there is no tipping in pubs. As soon as there is a door fee, in my mind, it is not a pub, but a bar.

Anyway, I think your point was that the landlord overreacted to a bottle of water that was brought in by one of the paid musicians. I wholeheartedly agree - that is excessive. I personally have told bands off for bringing their own alcoholic drinks into my establishment and have witnessed non-paid musicians at sessions topping up a glass of water with spirits. This is what I find unacceptable.

It is a judgment call as to raising the issue and it sounds like your chap made a big mistake which i am sure he regretted.

I think the main point of starting this thread (no, not to advertise Norcs, lol) was to state that we need to support each other. It is obvious from the responses that there are a lot of good musicians who understand the plight of the venue, but in my experience many do not.

A young duo from Deal had their first gig at my pub with the previous landlord. When I took over the pub I recognised that they were underpaid so I started paying them more. They have done well and are playing some really big gigs, and so they have decided to stop playing pubs. They announced this a few days before a gig at my pub. I can understand the concept of this, but to slam the people that gave you the start seems very wrong.

I wasnt sure if i should start this thread, but am glad i did - some really insightful comments.

jen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 06:30 AM

As Jen says this isn't a Norcsalordie thread so briefly and finally (from me) -

To capture people's hearts and minds you first have to capture their ears

If this debate should become even a tiny part of making folk musicians look in the mirror and start thinking outside the (little) box then however small I think they will have made a contribution to the genre

I have started a new thread - "Feral Folk in the UK" for anyone to add their gigs outside the normal folk scene


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM

Thanks Jen,
   The door charge was a free will donation collected by the performing family and all of it went the hospital. The family were not paid to perform although some made their living from music. It was an arrangement between the owner and this family that was to benefit the hospital. Of course the owner did very well on bar sales that would normally be low on a Saturday afternoon and the family had a venue to get together and jam among themselves and with friends.
I suspect that the owner may have believed that the clear liquid in the water bottle may not have been pure h2o, but I don't really know the truth of that. In any case the goose that laid the golden eggs became the meal.
         Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 01:42 PM

If this debate should become even a tiny part of making folk musicians look in the mirror and start thinking outside the (little) box

*snort*

Have you stopped beating your wife, Raffles?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: BB
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM

"to slam the people that gave you the start seems very wrong."

Jen, I regret to say that, for a long time, people have been doing that to folk clubs, i.e. the clubs have given them the start, but they then become 'too big' to do the clubs - only concert stages will do. Having said which, some might still be prepared to do the clubs, but they price themselves out of that particular market. Thank God for the likes of John K. and a few others that are still happy to do both.

Sad, isn't it?

Barbara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 05:47 PM

Jen, thanks for keeping it going!

Know that musicians everywhere appreciate the publicans (here in Canada we don't have that term, perhaps because the combined owner/manager is such a rarity) like yourself.

Slainte mha!

Bill

p.s. Rafflesbear, i wish you were MY agent!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Girl Friday
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:15 PM

At the risk of continuing to make this a "Norcsalordie" thread... these are two young men, who work bloody hard at bringing folk music back to the people. They work a punishing schedule that many of us oldies just couldn't cope with. Until recently they did pub gigs just because the clubs were either unaware, or wary of them. I understand the concept of sounding like an English version of the Dubliners, because of the driving rhythms, but never think that they sing Irish songs, perhaps a couple have found their way in, but they sit well with the English traditional stuff that they do so well. "Love 'em or hate 'em?" You cannot form an oppinion without going to see them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM

Can we just have a Norcsalordie Appreciation Society permathread?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:06 AM

Isn't 'Norcs' an Australianism for breasts?

L in C


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:11 PM

Ireland, Coors?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Jack Taylor
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM

Reading these missives brought to mind a visit to the USA many moons ago.

I was searching for a none-touristy folk club/bar/event in Orlando when I came across a small classified ad promoting a folk session at a suburban supermarket.

I drove to the venue and found it was located in the car park of a Piggly Wiggly supermarket. There were about a dozen players/singers there pumping out traditional ballads, cowboy songs, blues and instrumentals. They had started about 6:30pm and they finished about 10:00pm. There was an MC introducing the performers. No electric - everything was accoustic. A small bin was placed nearby for donations and there was a very large 'moving' audience. (Similar to busking I suppose.) I managed to get the locations of several other car park sessions which were on that week in Orlando. It was quite common apparently.

I know our climate isn't as conducive as Florida's to outside sessions, but use could be made of gas patio heaters and trolley shelters. The supermarket manager's permission would need to be obtained of course, but once secured; what a session could be had. A no cost venue with a plentiful supply of cheap drinks from off the supermarket shelves!

Who's going to be the first to do it in UK? Or is it done here already?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: synbyn
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:20 PM

House parties do happen, but I guess a carpark party would need a Licence from the Local Authority now in the UK-- or at least that's what some jobsworth would claim... following this with interest, because imho the traditional venue for our kind of music is being snuffed out by legislation and, dare I say it, sometimes our lack of appreciation of the costs of running a pub. Personally, as I can't drink much beer, I think it reasonable to pay £1 for a glass of coke if I'm getting a heated room, an environment in which to play and a friendly atmosphere. It's the price of admission. Again imho sessions are where the hearty music lives- the friendship & unity- and folk/acoustic clubs have really to take place in separate rooms, purely because of the need for quiet among the audience if attenders are paying to get in. And yes, both are dying because of the killing of the pub trade. Enjoy while they last.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM

I too would think it very reasonable to pay £1 for a glass of coke.
Unfortunately it is usually around £2.75 & is not always 'the real thing.'
Drink a couple of them & a cover charge would be cheaper & more acceptable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 17 January 12:21 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.