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Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying

GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC 23 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM
synbyn 22 Mar 09 - 07:20 PM
Jack Taylor 22 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM
Mr Happy 22 Mar 09 - 01:11 PM
Les in Chorlton 22 Mar 09 - 08:06 AM
Phil Edwards 22 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM
Girl Friday 21 Mar 09 - 06:15 PM
Willie-O 19 Mar 09 - 05:47 PM
BB 19 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM
Phil Edwards 19 Mar 09 - 01:42 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 19 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 19 Mar 09 - 06:30 AM
wrotham-arms-jen 19 Mar 09 - 04:26 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 18 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 18 Mar 09 - 12:07 PM
TheSnail 18 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM
Gedi 18 Mar 09 - 09:15 AM
melodeonboy 18 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 18 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM
Leadfingers 18 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 18 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM
The Sandman 17 Mar 09 - 01:12 PM
greg stephens 17 Mar 09 - 01:07 PM
Stringsinger 17 Mar 09 - 01:06 PM
Banjiman 17 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM
greg stephens 17 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 17 Mar 09 - 12:27 PM
greg stephens 17 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 17 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM
Betsy 17 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM
HipflaskAndy 17 Mar 09 - 11:39 AM
Girl Friday 17 Mar 09 - 11:33 AM
Austin P 17 Mar 09 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave 17 Mar 09 - 10:49 AM
Tim Leaning 13 Mar 09 - 09:11 PM
melodeonboy 13 Mar 09 - 09:05 PM
M.Ted 13 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM
Marje 13 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM
M.Ted 13 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM
SINSULL 13 Mar 09 - 11:06 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Mar 09 - 10:33 AM
M.Ted 13 Mar 09 - 10:27 AM
Marje 13 Mar 09 - 07:23 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM
Austin P 13 Mar 09 - 05:42 AM
breezy 13 Mar 09 - 05:39 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Mar 09 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Mar 09 - 03:22 AM
M.Ted 13 Mar 09 - 12:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM

I too would think it very reasonable to pay 1 for a glass of coke.
Unfortunately it is usually around 2.75 & is not always 'the real thing.'
Drink a couple of them & a cover charge would be cheaper & more acceptable.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: synbyn
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:20 PM

House parties do happen, but I guess a carpark party would need a Licence from the Local Authority now in the UK-- or at least that's what some jobsworth would claim... following this with interest, because imho the traditional venue for our kind of music is being snuffed out by legislation and, dare I say it, sometimes our lack of appreciation of the costs of running a pub. Personally, as I can't drink much beer, I think it reasonable to pay 1 for a glass of coke if I'm getting a heated room, an environment in which to play and a friendly atmosphere. It's the price of admission. Again imho sessions are where the hearty music lives- the friendship & unity- and folk/acoustic clubs have really to take place in separate rooms, purely because of the need for quiet among the audience if attenders are paying to get in. And yes, both are dying because of the killing of the pub trade. Enjoy while they last.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Jack Taylor
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM

Reading these missives brought to mind a visit to the USA many moons ago.

I was searching for a none-touristy folk club/bar/event in Orlando when I came across a small classified ad promoting a folk session at a suburban supermarket.

I drove to the venue and found it was located in the car park of a Piggly Wiggly supermarket. There were about a dozen players/singers there pumping out traditional ballads, cowboy songs, blues and instrumentals. They had started about 6:30pm and they finished about 10:00pm. There was an MC introducing the performers. No electric - everything was accoustic. A small bin was placed nearby for donations and there was a very large 'moving' audience. (Similar to busking I suppose.) I managed to get the locations of several other car park sessions which were on that week in Orlando. It was quite common apparently.

I know our climate isn't as conducive as Florida's to outside sessions, but use could be made of gas patio heaters and trolley shelters. The supermarket manager's permission would need to be obtained of course, but once secured; what a session could be had. A no cost venue with a plentiful supply of cheap drinks from off the supermarket shelves!

Who's going to be the first to do it in UK? Or is it done here already?


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:11 PM

Ireland, Coors?


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:06 AM

Isn't 'Norcs' an Australianism for breasts?

L in C


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM

Can we just have a Norcsalordie Appreciation Society permathread?


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Girl Friday
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 06:15 PM

At the risk of continuing to make this a "Norcsalordie" thread... these are two young men, who work bloody hard at bringing folk music back to the people. They work a punishing schedule that many of us oldies just couldn't cope with. Until recently they did pub gigs just because the clubs were either unaware, or wary of them. I understand the concept of sounding like an English version of the Dubliners, because of the driving rhythms, but never think that they sing Irish songs, perhaps a couple have found their way in, but they sit well with the English traditional stuff that they do so well. "Love 'em or hate 'em?" You cannot form an oppinion without going to see them.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 05:47 PM

Jen, thanks for keeping it going!

Know that musicians everywhere appreciate the publicans (here in Canada we don't have that term, perhaps because the combined owner/manager is such a rarity) like yourself.

Slainte mha!

Bill

p.s. Rafflesbear, i wish you were MY agent!


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: BB
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM

"to slam the people that gave you the start seems very wrong."

Jen, I regret to say that, for a long time, people have been doing that to folk clubs, i.e. the clubs have given them the start, but they then become 'too big' to do the clubs - only concert stages will do. Having said which, some might still be prepared to do the clubs, but they price themselves out of that particular market. Thank God for the likes of John K. and a few others that are still happy to do both.

Sad, isn't it?

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 01:42 PM

If this debate should become even a tiny part of making folk musicians look in the mirror and start thinking outside the (little) box

*snort*

Have you stopped beating your wife, Raffles?


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM

Thanks Jen,
   The door charge was a free will donation collected by the performing family and all of it went the hospital. The family were not paid to perform although some made their living from music. It was an arrangement between the owner and this family that was to benefit the hospital. Of course the owner did very well on bar sales that would normally be low on a Saturday afternoon and the family had a venue to get together and jam among themselves and with friends.
I suspect that the owner may have believed that the clear liquid in the water bottle may not have been pure h2o, but I don't really know the truth of that. In any case the goose that laid the golden eggs became the meal.
         Sandy


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 06:30 AM

As Jen says this isn't a Norcsalordie thread so briefly and finally (from me) -

To capture people's hearts and minds you first have to capture their ears

If this debate should become even a tiny part of making folk musicians look in the mirror and start thinking outside the (little) box then however small I think they will have made a contribution to the genre

I have started a new thread - "Feral Folk in the UK" for anyone to add their gigs outside the normal folk scene


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: wrotham-arms-jen
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:26 AM

Sandy, to me a 'public house' means that - as soon as you start charging a door fee it loses that quality. As far as I know Britain is the only place with true pubs where you invite people into your home to buy a drink. The relationship between landlord and customer is not a service relationship, but a friend. That is why there is no tipping in pubs. As soon as there is a door fee, in my mind, it is not a pub, but a bar.

Anyway, I think your point was that the landlord overreacted to a bottle of water that was brought in by one of the paid musicians. I wholeheartedly agree - that is excessive. I personally have told bands off for bringing their own alcoholic drinks into my establishment and have witnessed non-paid musicians at sessions topping up a glass of water with spirits. This is what I find unacceptable.

It is a judgment call as to raising the issue and it sounds like your chap made a big mistake which i am sure he regretted.

I think the main point of starting this thread (no, not to advertise Norcs, lol) was to state that we need to support each other. It is obvious from the responses that there are a lot of good musicians who understand the plight of the venue, but in my experience many do not.

A young duo from Deal had their first gig at my pub with the previous landlord. When I took over the pub I recognised that they were underpaid so I started paying them more. They have done well and are playing some really big gigs, and so they have decided to stop playing pubs. They announced this a few days before a gig at my pub. I can understand the concept of this, but to slam the people that gave you the start seems very wrong.

I wasnt sure if i should start this thread, but am glad i did - some really insightful comments.

jen


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM

Reluctantly I wade into this thread because I know nothing about British pubs or their music but this may cast a bit of insight from an outsider. I do not often play at venues where alcohol is served because I find that the audience becomes noisy and less attentive as consumption increases. I usually play without expectation of compensation so I am independant as Hell. Mostly I play and sing at fundraisers, benefits etc. with a concert rather than a pub format. All that being said friends of mine, a few years ago, asked me to drop into a local pub where they were playing. They are a very talented family group of twelve siblings and each Saturday afternoon a few of them would perform there and the door receipts and proceeds from a 50/50 draw were to go to a local hospital. The place would be packed each Saturday, the pub owners made good on beer sales and the hospital benefited as well. I would be asked, and was always happy to do a couple of songs for a good cause, but for the most part I was audience. One day a younger brother in this sibling group brought with him a bottle of water to be consumed while he played. He was told in no uncertain terms by the pub owner that he was not permitted to bring his own water but would have to purchase the same at the bar. The oldest brother, the leader of the group, told the others to pack their instruments and they left never to return. They had no trouble finding another place to play but that pub never again was packed on a Saturday afternoon. All for the price of a bottle of water.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

Expose people to folk music they like and they may wish to experiment further

"Hey, you're not like all those half-dead beardie Aran-wearing finger-in-ear folkies... and you're not like all those half-dead beardie Aran-wearing finger-in-ear folkies... and he's not... and she certainly isn't... and he's got a beard and he's wearing an Aran jumper and he's old enough for a bus pass, but he's actually rather good..."

Yes, maybe they're setting people up for a voyage of discovery into the world of trad. Which is great. (That's the definition of having mixed feelings - some of them are positive!) I just wish it could start with "we're folk and we're great" - not "most folk is crap but we're great".


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 12:07 PM

Gedi - no I don't think Noscalardie does mean anything - unlike Norcsalordie

In Kent where they have gained a slim toehold within the establishment they have become friendly with Pig's Ear - a very traditional band. Norcsalordie had a gig in Suffolk at a rock pub and went down very well. They have used this contact to get a gig for Pig's Ear. Far from slamming doors that is opening them.

Expose people to folk music they like and they may wish to experiment further


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM

It does seem to be damning yourself with faint praise to say that you stand out against the mediocrity of everybody else.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Gedi
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 09:15 AM

They sound an interesting pair, this Noscalardie (sp? Does that actually mean anything?)- they sound a bit like an English "Dubliners".

But I have to agree with Pip - "Folk for the Living" is pretty disparaging to the rest of us who enjoy immenseley the great tradition that is English Folk. And it will no doubt put off others who might otherwise have visited their local folk clubs. I wish them well but please, ask them not to trash the rest of us in their travels.

Ged


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM

'Also they recently played an extended floorspot at a club - they had just finished a very competent and well received version of The Barley Mow when one of the residents said in a loud voice for all to hear "you know you got that wrong don't you" and proceeded to sing his version'

That's appalling! No wonder people get turned off if there are bloody wiseacres around who do that.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM

the slogan "Folk for the Living" - that should upset a few more

Yes, I think it probably will. Very mixed feelings about this bunch - opening doors is great, but do they have to slam them shut behind them?


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM

With regard to Landlords trying to NOT agree to pay , Membership of MU does include FREE legal assistance - and a verbal contract is STILL a contract !


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM

Hi Greg - and anyone else who might fancy a trip to Stone tonight to support 'Folk music in the Wild' (I like that)

No I am not a member of the band although their progress and success is dear to me. Really glad you will be checking them out tonight that's the first barrier down :-) - I don't think I can say this without sounding corny but they really do appeal to folk of all ages - children to pensioners and most importantly all the ages in between

I shall be wearing the Norcsalordie tee-shirt - black with a large red N and the slogan "Folk for the Living" - that should upset a few more :-)

This week has been busy but unfortunately they have had a couple of late cancellations phoned through to them - the Crown and Anchor is putting back their gig and the White Hart is struggling for custom. On the bright side they were rebooked by the Six Bells, the Nobody Inn booked them for St Georges weekend this year and St Patrick's weekend 2010, the Seven Stars gave them three more dates for this year and last night Brennan's Bar asked them to play again for St Patrick's day 2010

Following this band you really get to see the health or otherwise of the pubs around the country - they have played to as few as two people and at other times it has been vitually impossible to get to the bar.

Normally they have to pay for their own drinks although they drink as much tap water as anything but a few pubs will stand them the first round - others are more generous and one gave them a meal before the start. Unfortunately they no longer appear at that one through intimidation from a very small section of the audience who did not recognise their own musical heritage and accused them of being Irish sympathisers although they had not sung a single Irish song all night!

On a very few occasions they have received a bonus payment at the end of the gig and a couple of times landlords have renaged on the previously agreed fee thereby putting themselves on the blacklist - verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on. At times when negotiating fees it has become apparent that the pub is simply after entertainment on the cheap but their days of playing for a pie and a pint are long gone

At the moment it is becoming more difficult to sell CDs which is probably a recession thing as in the past they have sold up to seven cds in a night - and the occasional Folk for the Living tee-shirt

SatNav is a blessing when visiting so many different venues and the arrival time prediction facility is a godsend

Very rarely do they get the rapt attention of the audience - normally the life of the pub continues around them so a PA is essential and the volume depends on the venue really - up for pubs that normally host rock music and down for the quieter pubs. It is of course largely possible for the audience to select their own preferred volume by where they position themselves in the pub as the sound reduces rapidly the more bodies it passes

As for the audience reception there are occasions when you really think that nobody is paying the slightest attention and you are flogging the proverbial dead horse - songs finish and nobody claps all evening until they say thank you and goodnight and the cries of 'more' start up and they won't let them go

Following the band has been a real treat and I feel privileged to have been along for the ride


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:12 PM

I havent quit yet.http://www.dickmiles.com


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:07 PM

I have just done a little research as someone is suggesting I go and see this Norcsalordie, and I don't know much about them (except they seem to be able to enthuse and annoy folkies, which sounds a reasonable combination to me!). I have just looked at their schedule and I am flabbergasted. They are the real deal and no mistake. Criss-crossing England playing pubs, night after night. Shrewsbury to Grantham to Shrewsbury. Fantastic stuff, fair play to them. I shall assuredly go and see them in Stone tomorrow, and I will shake their hands.(if they are too loud I won't stay, I think they may bne a bit young for me)
Their schedule reminds of the Boat Band twenty years ago, another band that played pubs all the time, but never got booked in folk clubs.

For your interest, here is the current week of Norcsalordie's travels which I found on their website.: read and admire. I honestly didn't think there was anybody doing this any more.

Friday 13th - 21:00 Six Bells - 59 Ditherington Road - Shrewsbury - Shropshire - SY1 4BD
Saturday 14th - 20:30    Nobody Inn - North Street - Grantham - NG31 6NU
Sunday 15th - 20:30 Seven Stars - Old Coleham - Shrewsbury - SY3 7BP
Tuesday 17th - 20:30    ST PATRICK'S DAY - Brennans Bar - 13 Winsover Road - Spalding - PE11 1EG
Wednesday 18th - 21.30 Swan Inn - 18 Stafford Street - Stone - Staffordshire - ST15 8QW
Friday 20th - 20:00 Crown & Anchor - Senwick Road - Wellingborough - Northants - NN8 1NJ
Saturday 21st - 21:00 The White Hart - 51/52 East Reach - Taunton - Somerset - TA1 3EZ


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:06 PM

i think what we are looking at is a shift in the nature of how music interacts with society. It was assumed in the US that professionalism was attached to the amount of income a musician receives. Now with the economic slump in the world music has become less of
a commodity and more of an avocation. I think this is good news for folk music in general.

There will always be those who find a living in it, however. This is not dependent on economic or social conditions but a confluence of acceptance by the public and a willingness to look beyond the usual parameters of folkdom for an audience.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

"Folk clubs are full of musicians who wouldn't last five minutes faced with an actual audience of ordinary folk"

You might be surprised Greg, I think quite a few of us do some "moonlighting" out in the real world! Tend to sell more CDs to the "normals" as well.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM

Rafflesbear:I would love to come to Stone and hear this jolly crew. Who are you and how will I recognise you? Are you, for example, a member of Norcsalordie pretending to be a fan, for the purpose of this thread?


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:27 PM

Greg - I love you

Your timing is perfect

Norcsalordie are on tomorrow night in the Swan Inn - 18 Stafford Street - Stone - Staffordshire - ST15 8QW start about 9 pm - would really like to see you there - please come and say hallo


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

A very interesting thread, congratulations to wrotham-arms-jen for raising this. There are plenty of discussions elsewhere about folk clubs that meet in pubs, it is good to concentrate for a while on folk music in the wild (as opposed to the zoo/hothouse/nursery or however you might term the "folk scene".
The economics is something we should all consider. I gather this Wrotham Arrms is somewhere in Kent near Broadstairs from the discussion; I don't know what the going rate is for pub bands round there, but in my patch(NW England, Stoke-on-Trent), 100-150 would probably be the norm.Clearly no living to be made for the musicians at that rate(if there is a duo or larger number involved). But absolutely no riches for the landlord either. A good night in our local with a band on is highly unlikely to generate enough extra money to pay the musicians and extra staff involved. At best, it gets the pub humming and people come back for a drink on the quiet nights. I absolutely congratulate the landlords of pubs who put on music, they are sticking their necks out and deserve all the praise we can give them. It doesn't matter what they put on, folk, rock whatever. If they've got any sense they'll book bands that people like, and it'll be good. Well played Jen, and any other landlords who put bands on.
    And a special congratulations to this Norcsalordie, who I haven't seen or heard but are obviously doing a fantastic job, judging what people are saying on this thread (both pro and anti). Folk music was created by the people for the people, and if this band is playing a version of it that is actually accessible to people in the public bar of a pub, well congratulations is all I can say. Folk clubs are full of musicians who wouldn't last five minutes faced with an actual audience of ordinary folk, so hats off to a band who seem to be making a point of taking the people's music back to the people.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

I have no objection to paying inflated prices for soft drinks when live entertainment is being provided. I have gone out for the evening to enjoy myself and the pub is not charging an entrance fee - so I have that extra fiver in my pocket

If that is spread across my drinks for the evening I come off even. I am aware of that equation before I start so I don't worry about it and can enjoy the music and I come away happy - especially as I have spent less overall than if I were buying alcohol - one of the few benefits of being the driver


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Betsy
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM

Re the subject :- It's always happened , especially the Quitting angle. It's evolution, e.g. you can't make a reasonable living no matter how good you are, perhaps the shine of doing it for a living wears off and the mundane travel is also very difficult. There are probably quite a few other reasons. Groups are almost impossible to keep "on the road" because of cost.
Loads of top class performers have quit - but I believe most are happy with their decision and they rarely lose their ability, so they still retain their art. Problem is , they don't seem to get replaced.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 11:39 AM

Hi, Les in C - Duncan here....

Just a point of info - you know how pedantic we folkies are! ;0)

Regarding your post....
>As Diz Dizzly used to say "I always carry Brandy in case I get bitten by a snake - which I also carry"<

You'll notice my (sopposed) jokey handle on here is HipflaskAndy.
It comes from the W C Fields quote (I forget the film!) which runs...
'I keep a hipflask handy in case I see a snake - which I also keep handy!'

It's good to see Diz raided excellent sources!
Cheers - Duncan (McFarlane)


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Girl Friday
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 11:33 AM

The Fox And Hounds in Knatts Valley is withdrawing funding from end of April. They have paid for our guests since they took over the pub last February. Every time they lose money. The drinks have gone up in price considerably and you have to drive to get there, so even more reason to restrict drinking. Pity it, like Wrotham Arms, and The Barge in Gillingham are open bars. Collection for guests is poor substitute for entry fees.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Austin P
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 11:25 AM

Ron: Marje surely has it right, - my pint was if Landlords only make 30p on a pint of Bitter why can't they apply the same margin to soft drinks?.

I agree they have to make a profit but 1.40 for a pint of carbonated water is literally taking the piss, and it puts people off.

Singing is thirsty work!

AP


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 10:49 AM

Thanks for your assessment Breezy - I'd really love you to see them live because YouTube and a 19 inch screen can't do justice to the real thing exploding in front of you - as for folk club main guests, have a word with the good people of Eltham Folkmob and Blackheath Folk Club

As for their repertoire they do have quite a number of original songs but as many of those are currently awaiting their new album to be released they are not going on YouTube yet - plus they do research quite obscure songs

One of the problems they have is being patronised because they are both still the right side of thirty. They are victims of Techno-Babble Jousting where some older time served musicians try to catch them out by quoting guitar tunings and chord sequences just to test them out - I have witnessed this on a number of occasions - yes Martin does know which way round his guitar goes! :-)

Also they recently played an extended floorspot at a club - they had just finished a very competent and well received version of The Barley Mow when one of the residents said in a loud voice for all to hear "you know you got that wrong don't you" and proceeded to sing his version

And yes they are appearing at Broadstairs and are hoping to catch Eric Bogle's performance if they are not playing themselves and no they don't do Sylvest - so many songs to sing so little time to do it


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:11 PM

Recently been in pubs charging 50p for a pint of orange squash and 1.20 for the same.
I know muso's who think they should be bought drinks all night and those who are just glad for somewhere they can all play.
There are good uns and bad uns in all walks of life I reckon.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: melodeonboy
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:05 PM

"It's not hard to figure--he puts on a great show, and people t are willing to pay for it. He'd be worth seeing, too"

Yes, and have you seen the Emperor's new clothes? They're beautiful!


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

I wasn't clear that you were actually performing, Marje, though it was inferred parenthetically. That is a different issue completely.

My point still stands, and it simply is that people who go out for an evening of entertainment should not begrudge their hosts or their entertainers a profit, whether it is charged at the door, or added to the price of drinks or food.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Marje
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM

I'd better make one thing clear: when I mentioned the cost of the fizzy water, I was referring to a session in which we, the session players, were advertised in the pub as the "Folk Evening", and our music was the only point of interest in a pub which is struggling to survive and is generally almost empty. My fun wasn't "coming out of anyone's pocket" - we were providing the entertainment for ourselves and for others, for free.

I don't expect necessarily to get a free drink for playing (although it's nice when we do) but I don't think it's too much to ask that there be one reasonably priced soft drink for those who don't happen to want alcohol on that occasion, whether they're musicians or just general pub-goers. Raising the price of soft drinks to equal those of alcoholic drinks (which include duty etc) is a mean trick, and does nothing to encourage people to use the pub.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM

It's not hard to figure--he puts on a great show, and people t are willing to pay for it. He'd be worth seeing, too, just don't take the kids.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:06 AM

And...Michael Jackson just sold out his UK tour of 1M+ tickets ranging in price from 75 pounds to 10,000. Go figure.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:33 AM

No club will last long if people sit and nurse a fizzy water for an entire evening. Your fun comes out of someones pocket. The person behind the bar is getting a living wage and the owner of the bar has expenses to cover. They do not host events as a public service - someone needs to pay the piper and the person pouring!


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:27 AM

Here's what kills folk music off: " they are not refined enough for 'folk club' no subtl(e)ty." and "I had half a pint of soda water the other night, and was charged £1.20 .. and I think that's exorbitant."

People who like to have fun and don't pinch their pennies are the ones that win out in the world of entertainment.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Marje
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:23 AM

I agree about soft drink prices, Austin. I had half a pint of soda water the other night, and was charged £1.20 (that's one pound 20, in case the symbol comes out wrong) It's just the stuff out of the pipe that they add as a mixer to other drinks, and I think that's exorbitant. I decided to make it last all evening (although a kind onlooker did buy all the session players a drink, so I had an orange juice later.)

Then last night I asked (in a different pub) for a bottle of mineral water and it cost £1.40. I could have had half of bitter for that price, and on many occasions I would do so, but in this instance I wanted to stick to soft drinks.

I can buy 2 litres of fizzy water in a supermarket for 17 pence. If a pub charges me 10 times or even 15 times that price - say 30p or 50p for a half-pint - I'll be happy. But to charge me 40 times that price is unreasonable, and they deserve to go out of business if that's the best they can do.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM

Austin, perhaps you should consider carrying your own weasel.

As Diz Dizzly used to say "I always carry Brandy in case I get bitten by a snake - which I also carry"

Yes I know - load of old rubbish.

I have bored on this before but I think "Folk" can be presented in a wide variety of ways: singarounds, tune sessions, once a week, once a month folk clubs, Barn Dances and so on. Perhaps some events work better in some places and parts of the country than others.

I often wonder that if I can try harder to keep our Singaround as secret and obscure as possible it will gain "Cult", careful now, status and hence become more interesting and possibly popular.

Cheers

L in C


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Austin P
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 05:42 AM

I have a lot of sympathy for struggling landlords, but too many try and bump up profits by charging exorbitant prices for soft drinks / mixers. A Pint of Cola or Bitter lemon can be 3 in many places. Which annoys me when I am being responsible and not drink-driving.

There are something like 6 pubs a week closing in Hampshire. The smoking ban hasn't helped either.

When driving I usually drink 'Weasel Piss' (as it's known round here) - tap water with Lime cordial in it. Most pubs will charge you 50p (they make as much on it as a pint in most cases). If they ask for much more than that, laugh and walk away ...

AP


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: breezy
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 05:39 AM

Norcsalordie, well the names a bugger to start with


terrific pub duo

with only the youtube clips to judge from so I dont think this will give a balanced picture of them


rough around the edges, great energy and enthusiasm , great voice, solid harmonies, adequate guitar strummer, known popular possibly hackneyed repertoire - but it works so dont knock it - and thats all what most ordinary punters want, however as for being a folk club main guest I would say having been a club orgamiser, they are not refined enough for 'folk club' no subtlty but absolutely great as club residents residents.

So thats me psyched up for tomoroow's pub gig at the Duke of Clarence in Luton , plus some.


And as for tonight in Orpington well maybe as the audience are great listeners and you can hear pin drops, maybe the quality of songs will be more prominent.

They also remind me of a slimmed down skinners rats of the old days, all they need is a double bass player with a loud voice who looks like an RAF pilot.

Energy of Sullivan and Winsor, do they do 'Sylvest'

Good luck to them, hope they go to hear Eric Bogle whilst he's over hear this summer to catch the original source of 'No Man's Land'


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 05:28 AM

I'd say it was a very shrewd marketing tactic to go against the stereotype

Sure, but what I don't like is that it confirms the stereotype at the same time, and applies it to everyone who's not Norcsalordie. As I said before, it doesn't do the rest of us any favours.


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:22 AM

Perhaps you should not just hire musicians, just to have musicians playing in your pub...but rather, go out of your way to find a caliber of musicians, that would be a draw!! Not only that, establish a reputation, of having ass kicking great musicians playing in your pub, and pay them a percentage of the gate....and if they are good enough, even better known, charge a cover. Good musicians have their following, that should help fill the house. Perhaps not being so 'cheap' is in your taste, rather than in your pay scale...Good luck!


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Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:45 AM

I'd say it was a very shrewd marketing tactic to go against the stereotype--the wider audiences are drawn to what seems fresh, new, and iconoclastic, though they enjoy it more when it is actually turns out to be familiar..


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