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BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?

skarpi 08 Mar 09 - 03:22 PM
MartinRyan 08 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM
Riginslinger 08 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM
Ed T 08 Mar 09 - 08:25 PM
Jean(eanjay) 08 Mar 09 - 09:15 PM
Den 08 Mar 09 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,Observer 08 Mar 09 - 09:18 PM
Joe Offer 08 Mar 09 - 09:44 PM
Ireland 08 Mar 09 - 09:50 PM
Riginslinger 09 Mar 09 - 12:00 AM
Ireland 09 Mar 09 - 12:20 AM
skarpi 09 Mar 09 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 09 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 09 - 04:34 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Mar 09 - 06:02 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Mar 09 - 08:34 AM
bubblyrat 09 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM
MartinRyan 09 Mar 09 - 10:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM
skarpi 09 Mar 09 - 11:39 AM
MartinRyan 09 Mar 09 - 11:58 AM
Teribus 09 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM
wysiwyg 09 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM
Ed T 09 Mar 09 - 04:43 PM
Peace 09 Mar 09 - 06:11 PM
Ireland 09 Mar 09 - 06:48 PM
The Sandman 10 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Observer 10 Mar 09 - 03:35 PM
Ireland 10 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM
MartinRyan 10 Mar 09 - 04:45 PM
MartinRyan 10 Mar 09 - 04:48 PM
Riginslinger 10 Mar 09 - 10:12 PM
MartinRyan 11 Mar 09 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 09 - 08:58 AM
Riginslinger 11 Mar 09 - 07:49 PM
Den 12 Mar 09 - 08:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 09 - 09:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 09 - 09:32 AM
Big Mick 12 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 09 - 12:08 PM
Den 12 Mar 09 - 12:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 09 - 12:49 PM
Stu 12 Mar 09 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Stephen 12 Mar 09 - 02:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 09 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,AR 12 Mar 09 - 05:31 PM
Big Mick 12 Mar 09 - 05:43 PM
Teribus 12 Mar 09 - 06:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 09 - 06:37 PM
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Subject: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: skarpi
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:22 PM

Hallo all , okei I know there has been alot of talkin about IRA and things they have done here on Mudcat .

And there has been thank god peace in N-Ireland but in the news
tonight they talked about the " True IRA " had gunned those soldiers to
dead ? , . Why in earth did they do that .

what do they complish by shootin them to dead ?

Why cant they just let go ..... what is wrong with those people .

comon stop now , sooner the peace is 100 % then soon N-Ireland will
be free . Doin this is only gonna stop that to happening .

So If you are Irish or British hold your hands together make peace
for your children for the future ..... this is not helping at all .

well , I dont know much about this , enough is enough .

All the best Skarpi Iceland .


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

hi Skarpi

A group which calls itself the Real IRA has claimed "credit" for this latest murder. It is one of several small groups of what are known as "dissident republicans". This label covers groups who still support an armed struggle against the British state of which Northern Ireland is a part - in contrast to the "Provisional IRA" who have ended their armed campaign.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM

Does anyone know what the strength and the support of the "dissient republicans" are?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:25 PM

Some information here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5869386.ece


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:15 PM

These killings are shocking. I'm pleased to see that Sinn Féin's Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have condemned them.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Den
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:15 PM

There's not much support for them. People are genuinely shocked that this happened. Right thinking people do not want to return the violence of the last thirty years.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:18 PM

They are a TRUE republican group who carry on the fight for the removal of a British presence in the North of Ireland.

British government assembly minister Gerry Adams sold the nationalist/republican people of the North of Ireland a pig and a poke. Once in office he rewrote the rule book. His party now sit in a British government assembly building with the Union Jack flying over it. There are 88 memorials in the building to centuries of British rule in Ireland and they gladly sit under them.

Over the past 15 years he wormed around ageing members of the army council until he became Chief of Staff of the Provisional IRA. Once in this position the tail began to wag the dog.

He had a motion passed recently in the British North of Ireland assembly to cancel the local council elections (which were to take place in June) until 2010 as he knew his British Sinn Fein party would be out on their ass as the people are sick of them.

This group has a growing strength among young republicans and retain the right to continue the armed struggle against a nation which has brought rape, murder and misery to the Irish nation for over 800 years.

I hope this answers your question Skarpi. Please ignore the negative responses of the pro British posters above.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:44 PM

I realize this is a controversial subject. I request that it be discussed in a civil manner. "Observer" has been around for a while and will be allowed to participate (assuming civil conduct). However, this thread is limited to regular Mudcat participants who use consistent posting names.
No visiting posters, please - and civil behavior is expected of everyone.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:50 PM

Now I know why Joe makes such threads members only.

Skarpi the original IRA and its political wing has recognised that violence is not the way to peace, since they gave up violence they have been rewarded with being part of the gov and most importantly we have peace.

As for our young it is only the delusional few that have support for the dissidents and that is a good thing. But it is a threat for the United Ireland inspired, when the young get a taste of peace and their children, we could end up in a situation were a U.I. is not that important.

So in real terms people need to be reminded and have their blood boiled a bit, so they don't forget the cause.

This will be a test for nat/rep politicians and their supporters to see if they will abide by the true will of the population and exercise real democracy here for once.

BTW there are very few nat/rep political parties SF and SDLP the main two so this canceling council elections tactic is nonsense, as many nat/rep would vote for SF than SDLP.

"So If you are Irish or British hold your hands together make peace
for your children for the future ..... this is not helping at all ."

Could not agree more well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:00 AM

It's hard to imagine how this works as a recruiting tool, but statistics in the US show that when the Neo-Nazi's hold a rally or some other event, their recruitments go up as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:20 AM

If the police had taken out the murderers on Sat night,not all would see it as ridding us off murderers more like the killing of a freedom fighter.

We have fickle people,on both sides, who would use this as an excuse to "join up". Both sides feeding each other.

SF was heading to N.Y. for a fund raiser, should people be more careful how they spend money?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: skarpi
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:15 AM

Thanks Joe :>) ,

and thanks all for this .

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:18 AM

NOTE: Keith

Content of this message has been passed directly to the addressee for comment.

JoeClone


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:34 AM

pm if curious.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:02 AM

I cannot imagine any question to which the correct answer is murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:34 AM

Much as I object to any type of IRA or other terrorist activity, occupying military forces are a legitimate target, as the German army was the legitimate target of the resistance.

But I resist the suggestion that the British Army is in fact an occupying army, since in my view transfer of political legitimacy from the original political structure some time round about Cromwell-ish, thus rendering the proper political authority the UK government, legitimately using armed force against unlawful uprising. I can however see the other point of view in that respect.


The IRA (etc etc etc, and the other side) practice of killing those who were not combatants cannot however be legitimated.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM

The kind of atrocity committed in the name of Irish Nationalism,in Northern Ireland,the other day,and which resulted in the deliberate murder of UNARMED young soldiers and the deliberate ATTEMPTED murder of , for God's sake, Pizza Delivery Men ( Like,how dangerous are THEY ??),was NOT the work of Patriots,Freedom-Fighters,Nationalists,Guerrillas,The Resistance,The Underground,or members of any Noble Cause anywhere at all .It was,however,the work of the most Cowardly,Despicable,Revolting,Sub-Human SCUM this world has ever spawned,and in my opinion,if this EVIL crime WAS ,in any way,sanctioned by "The Real IRA", then Ireland deserves to have British troops on its soil for the next THOUSAND YEARS,----or until this MADNESS stops.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:35 AM

bubblyrat

You comment: if this crime WAS ,in any way,sanctioned by "The Real IRA", then Ireland deserves to have British troops on its soil for the next THOUSAND YEARS

They'd love that! The purpose of this kind of action is to provoke excessive response which in turn would goad republicans into more violence which in turn....

Let's wait and see how the Plain People of Ireland, as Myles used to call them, react.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM

How dangerous are Pizza deliverers?
They were supplying a service to those lads (21 and 23) who would have shipped out to Afghanistan that vey night.
That made them a legitimate target.
Right Observer?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: skarpi
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:39 AM

Martin :

then Ireland deserves to have British troops on its soil for the next THOUSAND YEARS


No it does not , never let terrorists control you , thats a weakness .

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:58 AM

skarpi

I agree - I was just quoting bubblyrat back to himself to make the same point.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM

To Skarpi who asked the question - This from the BBC:

"Who are the Real IRA?

The group was born out of a split in the mainstream Provisional IRA (PIRA) in October 1997, when the PIRA's so-called quartermaster-general resigned over Sinn Fein's embrace of the peace process.

The man who walked out was Michael McKevitt, who is now serving a jail sentence for terrorist-related offences in the Irish Republic.

McKevitt is married to Bernadette Sands McKevitt, a sister of hunger striker and Republican idol Bobby Sands.

It is thought the Real IRA has access to some explosives and detonators which once belonged to the PIRA.

The Real IRA was responsible for the Omagh bombing (15 August 1998) as well as a string of other attacks, including bombings in London and Birmingham.

According to the latest report from the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC), the body appointed by the British and Irish governments to report on the activities of paramilitaries, it continues efforts to "enhance its organisational capability".

In the six-month period covered by the November 2008 report, the Real IRA had "sought to recruit, though with limited success, and it trained members, including in weapons use and manufacture".

"It was eager to recruit disgruntled members of PIRA though we do not have information indicating that it has any material success," continued the report.

"Like other dissidents, it undertook targeting, mainly of security force personnel, and it gathered information about them."

"It continued to seek weapons from associates, criminals and from overseas as well as by manufacturing them itself."

With regards to specific attacks, the report stated: "In May (2008) a PSNI officer was seriously injured by an explosive device detonated under his car; RIRA claimed responsibility.

"In the same month it also claimed responsibility for an incendiary device which caused damage to a store in Cookstown (County Tyrone) and for another at a store in Lurgan (County Armagh).

"We believe RIRA was responsible for two incendiary devices which caused some damage at a restaurant in Cookstown, again in May, though on this occasion the organisation did not claim responsibility."

The report continued: "In a brutal attack in April (2008) RIRA members burst into a victim's home in Belfast and shot him in both legs; arrests and weapon finds followed this incident.

"Two other vicious RIRA shootings occurred in June (2008), and members of the Real IRA also assaulted a Sinn Fein MLA in July."

Virginnia Tam please note all these took place long, long before any announcement was made regarding SRR unit deployments.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

Like most conflicts, this one masquerades as simple but actually has numerous layers all in need of resolution. (FMI see "Beyond Intractability" dot org.)

This one, for example, has race, class, religion, generational, and other aspects in addition to the obvious nationality and sovereignty issues.

And like other conflicts, this one remains intractable because people allow themselves to be drawn into arguments about which solution is best, instead of working together but separately (in "concord") to apply ALL possible solutions-- each person in their own setting or sphere of influence.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:43 PM

First, let me say that I personally feel this act was very wrong. But, I also feel that most, political-based killing is wrong.

Someone said to me once that most suicide bombers, who kill non-combatants (civilians or government officials) are seen by many as freedom fighters, not criminals. In many cases, their cause is the liberation of what they see as their land, society,or government, from what they see as occupiers or illegitimate rulers.

In some cases they claim to represent the interests of a majority, in others a minority...but always the real interests of the legitimate residents of an area or society.

We all have our favourite causes, and human nature makes us tend to favour one side, or interest over another in most conflicts. So, how do we define what is universally right or what is wrong? Where should the line be drawn?   

Here are just a few scattered examples, (many come to mind from history). Which are right, which are wrong?

Palistian suicide bombers kill Israelies.

Isrealies, kill Palistinian leaders and residents in retaliation.

Native American militants kill government agents on their land.

African governments kill the racially different, (not to mention death in the Bakans)

Quebec separtists kidnap and kill British diplomat.

US troops bomb areas killing civilians in Iraq

US troopps killed in Somalia and in Lebanon

Afganistan fighters kill Russian troops

Afganistan Taliban fighters kill NATO troops

Native warriers kill settlers in Canada and USA

British, Spanish, Portugese and French kill natives while colonizing

Slaves killed by many throughout history

Nazi's kill anyone rebelling in newly acquired countries.

Genghis Khan, Attila the hun, Mao, Lennan, and the Romans kill many

Roman Catholics kill non believers in the Inquisition

(Yet to be established) USA colonists kill British troops over taxes

Pacific Island natives kill Captain Cook.

British kill rebelling scottish and Irish.

Campbells kill MacDonalds (well, OK, that one is a streatch)


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:11 PM

People anywhere can find excuses for killing others.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:48 PM

They are people who trade in death,another shooting has occurred in Craigavon, I believe it is a policeman that's got shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM

guest Observer ,I believe in a united Ireland,that is under one jurisdiction [ and not the English government].I believe that a few in the real ira,want to maintain a border ,because it suits them financially ,they make money out of smuggling.[they could possibly have a vested interst in derailing the peace process].
the removal of the border, removes their income.
Thomas Slab Murphy has a house that straddles the border.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:35 PM

"I believe that a few in the real ira,want to maintain a border ,because it suits them financially ,they make money out of smuggling".

Any fool can tell you that due to the current strength of the Euro, it's freestaters coming up the ways to buy in the North of Ireland.

Drink & Tobacco are being carted out of border towns by the van load.

In the cross-border trade category of Food, Drink & Tobacco,exports from the North of Ireland to the Free State are down by 31.1%. Shops in the North of Ireland can't hold out to Electricial goods such as tv's and computers heading south.

You say you believe this group is currently making a lot of money out of smuggling from the free state into the North of Ireland. Please tell us what proof you have of "current" smuggling.

What has Tam Murphy's house got to do with this ?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM

Slab Murphy has built a multimillion pound (stg) property port folio his home is worth millions. He has around £40 million which is meant to be the result of smuggling. A raid on his farmhouse revealed fleet of oil tankers,30,000 ciggies, shot guns etc etc.

For a simple farmer that is some going.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:45 PM

GuestOBSERVER,

Smugglers don't mind which direction the price differential lies! Now if I could only find Sean Mone's wonderful song about the Transit van....

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:48 PM

Yep - HERE it is - though I'm fascinated by its classification as "Irish, political"!.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:12 PM

And then there's this:



You may talk and sing and boast about your Peelers and your clans,
And how the boys from County Cork beat up the Black and Tan.
But I know a little codger who came out without a scar.
His name is Paddy Mulligan, the man from Mullingar.




The Peelers chased him out of Connemara,
For beatin' up the valiant Dan O'Hara.
And when he came to Ballymore, he stole the Parson's car,
And he sold it to the Bishop in the town of Castlegar.
Seven hundred Peelers couldn't match him.
The Chieftain paid the army for to catch him.
And when he came to Dublin Town, he stole an armoured car
And sold it to the IRA brigade in Mullingar.




Well the Peelers got their orders to suppress the man on sight.
So they sent for reinforcements through the county left and right.
Three thousand men surrounded him, they hunted near and far.
But he was with the IRA brigade in Johnson's motorcar.

The Peelers chased him out of Connemara,
For beatin' up the valiant Dan O'Hara.
And when he came to Ballymore, he stole the Parson's car,
And he sold it to the Bishop in the town of Castlegar.
Seven hundred Peelers couldn't match him.
The Chieftain paid the army for to catch him.
And when he came to Dublin Town, he stole an armoured car
And sold it to the IRA brigade in Mullingar.

They came with tanks and armoured cars, they came with all their might.
Them Peelers never counted on old Paddy's dynamite.
On the fourteenth day of April, well he blew them to July.
And the name of Paddy Mulligan took half of Ireland's pride.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 03:17 AM

riginslinger

Not sure I see the conection. Do we need a thread for transport-nation songs? ;>)

regards


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:58 AM

Den, sorry if I am putting you on the spot, but you are the only member who used to post in support the actions of PIRA who have posted now against actions of RIRA and CIRA.
Why are they not "right thinking people" but PIRA supporters were?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:49 PM

"Not sure I see the conection. Do we need a thread for transport-nation songs? ;>)"


             Just trying to follow up. But it would be frustrating to be running around chased by peelers, wouldn't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 08:47 AM

Do you really, honestly need to ask that question? Or are you just trying to yank my chain?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 09:28 AM

It is the crucial question.
The dissidents say they are carrying on the fight against the British presence in Ireland, and that Sinn Fein and the Provisionals have sold out to the British.
They see no difference in the campaigns.
You do?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 09:32 AM

I would not blame you if you duck this one.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM

Let me step in, even though I do not live in the North. But you all know where my sympathies lie. It is my opinion the body of evidence is clear as to the oppression, theft of land, and imposition of their laws by the British in Ireland, as well as the outright discrimination in employment and education against the Catholic Irish. I believe that the armed struggle was a legitimate one, as well as the guerilla tactics against that oppressor that had superior firepower. The North OF Ireland is just that.

Having said that, it is clear that the people that live there have spoken with a very loud voice. They seek to move from the armed struggle to a political struggle. They have chosen to move from armed camps to political camps to express their chosen points of view. This has always been about those same people. It has always been about them righting ancient wrongs, and that has been a fight that they have never given up on. They have simply moved to another arena. The will of the people is what makes the difference, IMO. They supported the IRA, PIRA in the struggle. Now they support the ballot box and peace.

I think if you go back in other threads about this process, you will find that I said somewhere that the road to a lasting peace will have rough spots. There are fighters out there, on both sides, for whom there has always been the fight, and that is who they are. They may not realize it but peace threatens who they are. Some will get by that, and some will not. A struggle that is cultural and generations old, will take time to end.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:08 PM

If only the will of the people can prevail this time, because they did not support PIRA before.
They always supported the ballot box.
It was Sinn Fein that changed, leaving the dissidents behind, and not the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:20 PM

Keith A of Hertford why do you continue to pick at scabs. Bloody Sunday changed everything for the people that supported democracy including me. Unprecidented violence was visited upon the peace process in N. Ireland and changed it forever. Why do you, as someone from another country try to rewrite history. We as a people have lived through the conflict and will continue to move the peace process forward and do so on a daily basis through dialogue. You will never understand this.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:49 PM

Stateing falsehoods as truths does not take us forward.
PIRA may have had more support than the dissidents do now, but it was never a majority of the Nationalist people of the North.
Was it Den?


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 02:07 PM

"We as a people have lived through the conflict"

In a way everyone on our Islands have lived through this conflict. I can remember the terror caused by the bombs in Birmingham when people were really scared, and the Manchester bomb which had such a profound effect on the city, to this day it's impossible to escape it's consequences. Of course our perspectives are different as I've no idea what it's like to live under occupation, but I know how shit scared people become when bombs go off in shopping precincts and pubs.

"Why do you, as someone from another country try to rewrite history."

Ignorance. Because no-one in the UK is taught what really has happened in Ireland under British occupation. People do not have a clue about the subject, only what they read in the press and see on the TV (and this is still appalling biased - BBC breakfast the other day featured an interview with Tim Collins, retired Colonel who is famous for his inspirational speech in which Collins' hatred of Republicans involved in the peace process was aired and went utterly unchallenged by the interviewer).

No-one is taught the history of the fight to establish Irish independence or the reasons for partition or any other aspect of the history of the struggle that might place the Troubles into any sort of context. The whole issue of the behaviour of the British Empire in countries it occupied is simply not discussed, end of story. Amritsar and Croke Park? No-one's ever heard of them and they probably couldn't tell you where they were. I'm reading a book on the English Civil War at the moment (which has an obvious bearing on the subject) and even that's not taught in schools as far as I'm aware (it wasn't when I at school anyway, all those years ago). In Britain we don't even know our own history let alone anyone else's.

I picked up a copy of Saoirse? at Claddagh in Dublin recently - this should be shown in every school in the country as a start. It would be good if we could all see the other point of view.

It's only a matter of time before a united Ireland, let's just hope we can get there without the thugs and men of violence on all sides wrecking the whole process.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 02:49 PM

Big Mick you believe that the "armed struggle" was a legitimate one. Why then did the PIRA target civilians in Britain and Northern Ireland who weren't armed?

One thing that sticks in my craw about this "peace agreement" is that multiple murderers were given a get out of jail free card without actually being brought to account for their actions; many of whom may now be part of "The Real IRA". It gives a legitimacy to killing unarmed men women and children that it no way warranted.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:08 PM

Sugarfoot Jack, your comments about ignorance do not apply here.
Most contributors are well enough informed, but differ in interpretation.
I did not make the point about support for PIRA to just "pick at scabs."
It is crucial here.
Because of their own history, Sinn Fein can not tell the dissidents to desist just because they do not have the people behind them.

That is why I asked Den what made the difference.
It was not just to yank your chain mate.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:31 PM

Keith, you really go at it. Why the hell do you want to stir the pot ? Please don't tell us you don't enjoy firing up the Irish.

I don't see any Irish catters shouting "Up the ira" yet you go on and on and on.

I could see your point if you'd been a serving squaddie over there or lost friends in Ireland, correct me if I got this wrong, but you were a part time soldier in the TA and never saw any kind of service deployment ?

You clearly enjoy going to war against ira men by keypad, but the Irish guys here are into music, plants or their grand kids. Would your time not be better served firing keypad messages on some Irish republican rebel site ?

Man dear it does become boring,and you start threads about peace in Ireland or Irish rebels and welt the back of the Irish for standing against masters who arrived over there from Britain.

Keith, if the German army had landed on my shore during the 1939-45 war my old man would have cut the crap out of them any way he could (he was a Sapper in the Great War).

So Keith, were the Irish wrong not to roll over and take what we did to them ? There was a government in Northern Ireland in the 1950's which treated Irish catholic's like slaves and second grade.

Come on man, be honest, if you knew the south coast was covered in landing craft and your town hall had been taken over you would be one of the first to "tip and run" against their rule.

See it from both sides and give a little more understanding.

Stop trying to start fights and give Irish guys a hard time, life is much too short.

Cheers.

Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:43 PM

Al, this isn't about a search for peace, or seeing both sides for these people. It is clear from the response I got, that this is simply a combative person. It is easy to use "black-white, right-wrong" to shoot down all conversations. One must have a desire for understanding in order to understand. The real motives of these people are to justify their country's wrong headed and discriminatory policies in the North. Fortunately for all of us, the Protestant and Catholic peoples of the North seem to have stopped listening to all that, and move ahead with understanding and a desire to live in peace. And they have chosen the wise way in terms of "terrorism". Remember that one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Neither side will justify the other, and remain at loggerheads, unless that principle is recognized and understood.

Here's to peace for all the children of the North, and their families. To hell with those that will not try to see both sides and progress towards a better time.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:00 PM

I think it was some time around 1970 or 1971 that the "Official" IRA made the decision to stand apart from armed struggle and only retaliate if attacked. Their view was that the civil rights movement would win as it had immense support throughout not only Ireland but on mainland Great Britain as well.

This did not sit well with some of the membership and so the "Provisional" IRA were formed. This decision resulted in almost 3600 deaths and over 35,000 injured.

I think that if it had been possible for the "Official" IRA to comment in the media at that time, they would be saying of the "Provisional" IRA more or less what Sinn Feinn are saying now about the "Real" IRA and "Continuity" IRA who let's face it came into being when the "Provisional" IRA was convinced that "their" armed struggle was getting them nowhere and that the only game in town was to junk the Armalite and use the Ballot Box.

Big Mick's post is the most depressing I've read on this thread, because reading that it screams the streotype of Plastic Paddy who will only be too pleased to dip his hand in his pocket to "Help the oul' cause", in the full knowledge that innocents will die. I would have thought that memories of 11th September 2001 would have illustrated how glamourous and righteous the terrorists cause is in real life. Significant that as yet we have yet to hear one word of condemnation of those attacks from the President, Vice-President or any member of their administration, the two unarmed young sappers of the Royal Engineers were dressed in desert camouflage and were within hours of deploying to Afghanistan to fight in common cause with US troops when they were murdered - and so far not a single word of condemnation.

As long as such as think as you do exist Big Mick and refuse to educate themselves objectively there will always be support and funding in the good old US of A for any gangster that springs from the woodwork wrapped in a tricolour with a gun in one hand and a bomb in the other - truly bloody depressing.

Some news for you Big Mick, the IRA be it "Official"; "Provisional"; "Real";"Continuity" never, repeat never had any mandate from the people of Ireland to kill the best part of 2100 fellow Irish men women and children, but not to worry eh it's over 3,000 miles away.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM

Mick, I missed Al's post.
Am I the "combative person" ?

Is it part of the deal that falsehoods given by Republicans must not be corrected?
You would jump on me if I put one up.

I did not challenge all the other stuff in your post, and I gave the reason why that one had to be addressed.
I really do not know why you cling to it. It is so easy to show it is false and it has been several times.

If we are serious about this discussion, and you and I agree on wanting the dissidents to stop, then we must talk about why they think it right and we and Sinn Fein do not.


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Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:37 PM

My reply to sugarfoot jack was deleted, I hope by mistake.
Here it is.

Sugarfoot Jack, your comments about ignorance do not apply here.
Most contributors are well enough informed, but differ in interpretation.
I did not make the point about support for PIRA to just "pick at scabs."
It is crucial here.
Because of their own history, Sinn Fein can not tell the dissidents to desist just because they do not have the people behind them.

That is why I asked Den what made the difference.
It was not just to yank your chain mate.
keith.


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