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carol thatcher death threats

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goatfell 08 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM
VirginiaTam 08 Feb 09 - 09:23 AM
Jean(eanjay) 08 Feb 09 - 09:25 AM
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goatfell 08 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Stephen 08 Feb 09 - 09:33 AM
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goatfell 08 Feb 09 - 09:50 AM
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Subject: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM

I know what she did was wrong but as she says she just wants to forget about it and I agree igot this from a website


Death threats made to Carol Thatcher, agent claims
Carol Thatcher has received death threats over her comments likening a black tennis player to a "golliwog".

By Ben Leach
Last Updated: 11:55PM GMT 07 Feb 2009

The former BBC presenter has gone into hiding in Switzerland following the furore over the incident, her agent said.

Miss Thatcher, 55, is understood to be considering suing the BBC over her dismissal from The One Show.

Her agent claims that she also has received threats from individuals angry at Miss Thatcher's remarks.

She said: "I've asked the media to stop using my name as I don't want this kind of hassle. It's been an awful time. We've even had death threats.

"I've been involved in some high-profile things in my career but nothing like this. I'm shocked at the reaction to this. It's absolutely stupid and I just want to forget about it."

Miss Thatcher, a former winner of ITV game show I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, made the comment in front of comedian Jo Brand and One show presenter Adrian Chiles after a recording of the show.

The BBC has received 3,300 complaints about its decision to drop Thatcher – the daughter of former prime minister Lady Thatcher – from BBC1's The One Show, with just 60 calls and emails in favour of its action.

Her agent added: "We stand by our comments. Miss Thatcher wishes to maintain a dignified silence and not be implicated in this tit-for-tat behaviour."


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:23 AM

This belongs in BS and

As the last Carole Thatcher thread (applaudingly) landed in the closed threads tomb this one is likely to do the same.

If the Thatcher idjit is so stupid to make such a racist comment, I think she deserves the hate being poured on her.

I am now more determined to learn how to sing Strange Fruit and not weep while I do it.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:25 AM

I think that the last thread ended up in BS because it was started by a guest.

It is illegal to make death threats so I hope the police are investigating it.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:26 AM

Sorry meant ended up being deleted, nothing to do with BS.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM

so no one is allowed to use free speech anymore and I think that is wrong to send death threats to anyone I just that doesnt happen to you


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:33 AM

She said something silly in a private conversation. Noone died and its not fair to blame the evils of the world on one person who makes such a comment, which I understand was comparing a tennis stars hairstyle with that of a gollywog on a jam jar.

Big deal get over it.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:35 AM

I made a complete mess of my previous posts!

I totally agree with you Goatfell. She most certainly does not deserve the hate being poured on her and it should be forgotten now.

Just to clarify what I was trying to say before (third time lucky). BS threads are not allowed to be started by guests and so I imagine that is why it was deleted.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:50 AM

thank you eanjay


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:05 AM

This is not a freedom of speech issue.

A racist comment made in any workplace is grounds for reprimand at least if not for dismissal. If such a comment makes any colleague uncomfortable they have a right to seek redress, whether or not it is aimed at them specifically.

Check the Equaltiy and Diversity policy where you work.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Villan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:25 AM

>>If such a comment makes any colleague uncomfortable they have a right to seek redress<<

Death threats - come on, nobody deserves that.

I hope you never say anything out of place Tam

Dear me what is this world coming to.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:32 AM

Absolutly, Villan.
Balanced, unhysterical posts from both you and eanjay. Thank God there are a few of us still sane.
Thatcher was wrong to make racist comments, no matter where she made them, and deserves a reprimand. But making death threats is far, far worse, and no-one deserves such threats.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:39 AM

3,300 complaints were made to the bbc and only 20 calls were in favour of Carol Thatcher to get the sack I don't see how this gets a woman death threats no one has the right to do so or even agreeing with these eejits that issue them.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM

Goatfell, they're the same kind of people who spray-paint graffiti on public buildings, or send out viruses on the internet. Sick, and very, very sad little people.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:44 AM

Good luck with Strange Fruit VTam, amazing song. It'd never suit my voice though.

Thatchers just another bigoted little twat, how long do we have to poke up with these moneyed, sheltered, dinosaur fuckwits? FFS get with the 21st C already!

Mmm and there's me guessing that all the people that passionately support C. Thatch, are exactly the same people who bayed for the blood of Brand &Co for *their* bad taste humour...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM

I am not for the death threats. I never said I was. I never would be. I said she deserved to be hated. Please read what I say and don't over interpret.

It was astoundingly stupid of her to make such a comment in a place where it had the potential to go global. That it has, it no one's fault but her own. Those threats are coming from the wider public, not those who were in direct hearing and made the initial complaint.

Also she is a celebrity uber times over. She will eventially come out of this whole thing smiling with a book deal and talk show spots.

There is nothing sane about any of it. I am saying no more.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Villan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:51 AM

There is a difference between being unhappy with either, Rosie and wanting to issue a death threat.

Nobody is suggesting that Thatcher is right or supporting her, just like Brand & Co. Obviously she needs to be dealt with appropriately.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN DEATH THREATS Rosie

>>Thatchers just another bigoted little twat, how long do we have to poke up with these moneyed, sheltered, dinosaur fuckwits?<<

Your comments are even worse Rosie IMHO


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

I don't recall saying I approve of death threats either.

But I for one am getting sick of hearing about ignorami like C. Thatcher behaving like they belong in prehistory, and assuming everyone else should happily tolerate it. She's sounding pretty self-piteous at the moment. And I find it tiresome.

A 'twat'/'fuck wit' is simply commonplace slang for 'very stupid indeed'. What she did showed that she is very stupid indeed (ie. a bigoted twat and a fuck wit). And as for 'dinosaur' well that just means acts like she comes from the dark ages, which indeed she did.

Nothing I said was incorrect. I reacted with annoyance at the amount of apologists who seem to jump up to defend the behaviour of public figures like this who behave in such racist fashion.
I've nothing to retract.

AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT AT ME... I don't have failing eyesight thanks.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Worse than what?

Are you saying that Rosie's expression of her opinion is worse than a death threat? I hope you never say anything out of place Villan

BTW Some graffiti is quite beautiful and as such is a considered an art form. Luckily there are places that provide venue space for the work. I work right next door to one.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:26 AM

Everyone ready? You all know the tune - here we go, all sing along.......!

"Here we are again,
Happy as can be,
All good friends and jolly good company."


Maybe Al has a point.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: skarpi
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:28 AM

And who is carol Tacher ?? never heard of her


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

Ex UK Prime Ministers daughter, Skarpi.
And a journalist, and TV celebrity here in UK.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:34 AM

I don't really approve of the use of a synonym for the female pudendum as a term of abuse.   But I am happy generally to abuse Carol Thatcher, who seems to me to be indeed a right-wing bigoted beneficiary of the money and position of her parents (although not perhaps so unpleasant as Mark Thatcher or their mother).

We do not however know exactly what she said, and bigotry in private (as she thought she was) is not a hanging offence nor a proper matter for death threats.

IMHO, to jsutify dismissal her misconduct would have needed to be something done in the performance of her duties - and so the "offence" was borderline justification for dismissal.

Ross and Brand however behaved like the worst sort of pack bullies, picking with the communication power of the BBC in the course of their duties on a defenceless old man.

It would be fair revenge on them to print photos of them being [insert details of something very unpleasant].   I would have dismissed both of them instantly.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:37 AM

Regards R & B they behaved very stupidly too. As did the programme producers in allowing the programme to go to air.

And to clarify again. Death threats are indeed not at all something I could condone.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

Any nutter can make meaningless death threats.
Her mother's friend, Augusto Pinochet took it a step further when he rounded up many thousands of his opponents, mainly young people, students etc., into Santiago Stadium where they were raped, tortured and eventually 'disappeared'.
Her mother played a prominent part in preventing him from going to trial and he died unpunished.
Racist statements by media employees need to be treated seriously; she should not be allowed to work for the BBC or any body which puts her in the public eye again - not a matter of freedom of speech, but the right of people to live their lives unmolested and unpersecuted by these racist scum.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:49 AM

I blame Grecian 2000


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

Who is she and what did she do?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: pdq
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:15 PM

"Her mother played a prominent part in preventing him {Augusto Pinochet} from going to trial and he died unpunished."

First, the sins of Augusto Pinochet are not those of Margaret Thatcher. I don't recall her killing anyone as you describe.

Second, if Maggie did something wrong, the responsibility is strictly on her, not on her daughter.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Villan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:20 PM

>>Are you saying that Rosie's expression of her opinion is worse than a death threat? <<

No

Glad to know that you and Rosie are not supporting the death threat people :-)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:38 PM

Just around the corner from my house is a famous (at least,I think it is ) "Teddy Bear " shop.In the window,on prominent display are LOTS and LOTS of GOLLIWOGS. Big ones---Little ones ----Expensive ones --Cheap ones ----they even have their own newspaper, "The Golliwog Times " !! So---where are the protesters in Henley-on Thames ?? The riots ?? The petrol-bombs ?? The legions of Political Thought Police?? The enforcers of Political Correctness ??The Apologists ?? The Bleeding Heart Liberals ??
            I mean, if you REALLY and HONESTLY feel that bad about a word that,as a child, I grew up with,for God's sake,why don't you actually DO SOMETHING about it ?? Come to Henley !! Burn the shop !! Kill the family who run this gentle little business !!Kill Carole Thatcher !! Kill anyone who asks for a "Black " coffee, or gives someone a "Black" look. Go on-----put your money where your mouth is !!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

We have 2 gollywogs in our fluffy toy collection on our spare bed. I sometimes leave one as if shagging the penguin and we have a good laugh, or sometimes I leave both of them playing at being homos - even bigger laugh!!!!!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:13 PM

I have a keyring with a gollywog on it but I keep it in my house because ther will people out there that are totally Pc


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

I'm beginning to take quite a shine to you Bubbly!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM

I'm not a fan of Carol Thatcher. It has nothing to do with her mother, for I believe in 'Do Not Visit The Sins of The Fathers - or Mothers - Upon The Children' . It's because I've never been able to understand how she gets the jobs in broadcasting that she does. For me, there are far more talented people around who are far more deserving of the jobs she's given.

I can understand people of a younger age taking offence at what she said.

However...............

..I'm of an 'older' age, and for me, the term 'Golliwog' is no different to 'Teddy Bear', in that when I was growing up (I'm 53) golliwogs were toys. I *always* wanted a golly, but was never allowed one. There were *never* any racist overtones to it for me, or for any of my friends.

Robertson's Marmalade and Jams used to have their Robertson Golly on every single one of their jars, and as kids we'd save the labels up and send off for the little badges, and Oh how I loved those badges! :0) It was entirely innocent and I never grew up to use the word in an abusive manner.

Robertson's Golly


I think it's sad that 'gollywog' has become yet another word to hang people with, because to me it has no racist meaning at all, but then I come from a time when 'gay' also meant happy, so what do I know?

But those of you who are younger, and who choose to see racists/religiousists/facists/sexisits/dailymailitists in every person that you don't like, just remember, that once upon a time, words were said in innocence...

And once upon a time we didn't all report on one another, or take each other to court over things.

Once upon a time, before we reached '1984', the world was, on the whole, a somewhat gentler place.

I don't think she deserves to be hated for this. That would put her, for me, in the same category as paedeophiles and murderers.

I think Russell Brand, for all his daftness, is the only one to have come out of any of these BBC fiascos with some respect, because he admitted he'd done wrong immediately and he apologised profusely. I felt it was from the heart too, as he seemed genuinely upset to have caused the upset he did to Andrew Sachs and his grandaughter. Then he disappeared off into the sunset, of his own accord, without ever having to be sacked from his job. He behaved in an honourable way at the end.

I think that Carol and Jonathon have a great deal to learn from Russell.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Villan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:20 PM

I dread to think of the the people who live in the Black Country and talk the dialect.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:21 PM

Life at your home must be a barrel of laughs, Bonzo3. :)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Villan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

We had a black cat (1950's) and it was called Nigger.

We loved the cat to pieces. Like Lizzie, racism never came into it. In fact we didn't know what it meant.

Blimey to think every night we called the cat in "Here Nigger, Nigger, here Nigger, Nigger" until the cat came in.

When the cat died it broke our hearts.

I guess today we would be considered rascist and would receive death threats (even though we weren't/are).


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Villan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

>>(even though we weren't/are)<<

That should have read (even though we weren't/are not)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

I had a friend owned a stuffed blonde doll in southern belle gown that you could flip over smooth the dress down over her head to reveal the black mammy doll. It fascinated me when I was little because it was a clever trick. Even at the tender age of eight I wonderered why the white side had a pretty dress on and the black side gingham and a patched apron.   At least this doll looked real and was painted attractively.

I find the g... dolls repugnant. They are no more than a racist caricature from a (thank gawd) bygone era. There is nothing remotely accruate about them compared to the people they were created to parody.

While I would never approve of a torch and pitchfork bearing village mob runnning purveyors of such goods out of town, I would not give them any custom and I would not be afraid to tell them why.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM

"Look out how you use proud words. They walk off proudly. They wear long boots, they wear hard boots. They can't hear you calling.
Look out how you use proud words."

Carl Sandburg.

"The moving finger writes; and having writ moves on.
Nor all your piety and wit can lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all your tears wash out a word of it."

Omar Khayyam


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: open mike
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

i wondered so i googled..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwogg


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:02 PM

"the sins of Augusto Pinochet are not those of Margaret Thatcher."
No, but she endorsed his actions by supporting his not coming to trial for war crimes.
Carol Thatcher - her actions indicate she is comfortable in following in her mother's footsteps.
Can we have some ground rules here - what should be permissible?
We've had Harry the halfwit with his 'towelhead and Pakie - up to the point he used the terms, generally accepted as racist and offensive (even in the dictionary)
Then (Charlie the clown) - Sooty
The D of E - Fuzzie-wuzzie
The Queen mother regularly talked about 'darkies'
Where do we go from here - nig-nog (or nigger), coon, Yid (or Kike, or Sheeney), greaser (or greaseball), Polak, Frog, Kraut......?
Please tick the appropriate space.
All of those proudly displaying their racism confirm what I have always believed - there are as many of you in the closet as out of it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM

Yes, some of that was in the Robertson's link too,

Taken from open mike's link above. to Wiki:

"In February 2009, Carol Thatcher, in an off-air conversation at the BBC, referred to the black French tennis player Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, competing in the Australian Open, as looking like a golliwog.[5] The comment was considered by the BBC as "wholly unacceptable" and Thatcher was informed that unless she apologised she would no longer be a reporter on BBC's The One Show. Thatcher stated that it was a silly joke and declined to make an "unconditional apology". Thatcher claimed that her comment was a reference to the golliwog motifs that she saw in her childhood on "jars of jam" (Robertson's Marmalade).[6]

The French publication Sportsweek claimed that Thatcher, in talking about a previous competition referred to another player as "the one who was defeated by the golliwog in the previous tour". The French publication, which showed a picture of Tsonga above a picture of a toy golliwog, claimed that Thatcher was "mortified" and that her comment was about the similarity of Tsonga's appearance to the doll that she had as a child.[7]"


As I said, Carol Thatcher has a lot to learn from Russell Brand.





I didn't know these bits:

Other meanings and in popular culture...........

......The American rock group Creedence Clearwater Revival was known as "The Golliwogs" and under this name they released a number of singles on the Fantasy label before they rose to prominence......

.....Golliwog is a solo-single by ABBA member Agnetha Fδltskog from 1974....."


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Villan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Better not go to The Netherlands or Flanders at Sinterklaas


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Pardon me, but are there ANY excuses for a racist comment? ANY?????


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

The fact remains that she SAID it, and it was not meant 'kindly' I'm sure. No, she doesn't deserve death threats but she doesn't need apologists either.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

Your "liberal" attitude disappoints me Jim. You of all people must know that there are many nastier wrongs in this world than a few stupid words from one stupid woman.
There are no racists on this forum as far as I know, but plenty of Witchfinder Generals trying to hunt one down.

The man whom I believe we both revere, Mr MacColl, would not be taken in I'm sure.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Mr Yeahbut
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:30 PM

just need a G.I.Joe / Action Man KKK outfit

and the mudcat toybox will be complete.....


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

Sir John Betjeman always reminded me of a teddy bear.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:41 PM

Considering that I don't know what a golliwog looks like, I can't comment.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:42 PM

"No, she doesn't deserve death threats but she doesn't need apologists either."

Who's apologising for her? In her arrogance, she's chosen *not* to apologise. Arrogant people do that, refuse to apologise. It says a great deal about them.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:44 PM

"Sir John Betjeman always reminded me of a teddy bear."

Me too, John.   A gentle, crumpled, well loved teddy at that.

My house is full of bears. :0)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

I think Carol Thatcher did apologise but she refused to give an unreserved apology so it wasn't accepted.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM

?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:32 PM

Death threats? My left arse!
Sure, I've had those too - mostly they're laughable. When I was a hack I had a far-right website publish my photograph with an open invitation for anyone to 'have a go'. And they never did. So claims of death threats from Carol's "friends" cuts little ice with me.
I'm sorry, but I would have sacked Carol Thatcher years ago for being a talentless waste of space who owed her role solely to nepotism. If she now whinges that she's being victimised because she's Thatcher's daughter, maybe she should appreciate that the only reason she's managed to hold down a job as a jobbing freelance for the past 30 years is precisely because she's Thatcher's daughter.
She would be hard-pressed to survive on a local weekly freesheet, and yet I have actually had this woman utter to me those classic lines, "Do you know who I am?"
She used the word 'golliwog' several times in several different contexts in front of about 30 people, many of whom she didn't know from Adam or Eve. For her crassness and stupidity, the revocation of her "One Show" agreement would seem only fair. It would be fairer if the oxygen of publicity was denied to her in perpetuity.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:46 PM

LOL John

What's wrong. If people want to do that to their hair more power to em. As the the wiki description goes

"The Mohawk, by its nature, and depending on the type of hair the wearer has, is typically a high-maintenance style, although after practice, can become quite routine for the wearer and done in a much shorter amount of time. Depending on the specific look desired by the wearer, regular, careful shaving may be required to maintain a clean line between the shaven and long parts of the hair; this can be especially complicated in bi- and tri- hawks. "

snip

If you are trying to point out a parallel between what Thatcher said about the tennis player, that's comparing apples to oranges.

Gervase... thank you.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Betsy
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:48 PM

I don't like anything connected to Margaret Thatcher , but if the remark was said only in front of 2 people - Adrian Chiles and Jo Brand (apparently it was in a some hospitality room in the TV studio) - they are the two for whom I feel sorry if indeed they were the only two people present.
If they were SO offended they should have admonished Carol Thatcher immediately and give her a bollicking. To report her to the BBC authorities is beneath contempt.
What a pair of pricks. We're turning into a Stalinist state .


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Rog Peek
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

Seeing Villan's post about his cat got me to thinking what they might call Wing Commander Guy Gibson's dog if they did a remake of 'The Dam Busters' film.

Rog


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 04:59 PM

My mother used to refer to blacks as "Darkies" too, but I can say flatly there was not one scrid of racism in her.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:16 PM

Betsy

If you were at work say during tea break and you heard a colleague use the word spaz about a someone with cerebral palsy, what would you do?

Just curious.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:31 PM

Talk about apples and oranges!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:39 PM

Betsy, there were around 30 people present, most of whom she didn't know. Not two.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: paula t
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:56 PM

I have always felt uncomfortable about Gollywog toys. Someone bought me one when I was a child(1964) and it embarassed me ,because even at the age of 4 I thought it was meant to make fun of someone. That toy stayed in the bottom of my rather small toybox and was never played with. I must have picked up the racist meaning of this toy from somewhere because a 4 year old is not usually politically aware.

If a 4 year old can feel uncomfortable about the term "Gollywog" and the form the toy takes, then a fully grown woman should get it too.I am glad that one of the people who heard this comment had the courage to speak up. It is a difficult thing to do , but if no-one challenges such comments in the workplace then those people think it is acceptable .

However, death threats are also totally unacceptable .They have no place in any society.There are better ways to express your disgust.They merely serve to cloud the issue and also give racists the chance to stick together as a "victimised " group. The argument is quickly turned from one about an unacceptable racist comment by a "well educated" but ignorant person , to one of the right to "Free speech" and attacks on the so - called "PC brigade" by the more right wing newspapers.There usually follows a spate of stories about ridiculous rules made up by obscure councils and little groups (remember "Baa Baa Rainbow sheep"?) and then people start talking about being British............Then the original misdemeanor is forgotten and the person gets their job back - usually being seen as a hero,as a champion of free speech and a victim of unfairness.

This woman has finally shown what she is really like . I hope this is the last we hear of her.



.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM

"So---where are the protesters in Henley-on Thames ?"

Is that an example of a question that answers itself???


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:24 PM

Just wait till the Yanks wake up and Miss Azizi sees this!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:26 PM

Ah'm away tae ma bed the noo!!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:25 AM

As I said, this has nothing to do with freedom of speech; it is about whether we are prepared to accept people in the public eye using offensive racist abuse.
I gave a list of examples of common racist abuse which I encountered throughout my working life, some of it on a daily basis, much of it on a daily basis. And answer came there none - I ask again - do people find it acceptable?
Let's take it a step further - how would you women out there take to being described as bitches, tarts, slits, snails, c---s, whores, slags, pole-perchers, knocking-pieces - or even 'er indoors' - and how would you feel if these terms were in general use by people in the public eye with access to the media?
Akenaton,
MacColl's stance on racism was, as far as I am concerned, impeccable - I have no doubt that if he were alive there would be a song....!
I assume you never saw 'The Festival of Fools' sketch he wrote on the 'Basil D'Olivera' incident - bit difficult to describe, but it starts with an English crowd applauding his performance at the wicket - and ends with them screaming racist abuse (golliwog featured prominently in the torrent) and beating him to the ground with cricket bats - wonderful stuff!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM

"Just wait till the Yanks wake up and Miss Azizi sees this!"

OMG!!! I know what you mean!
Do you think she'll respond with her usual moderate manner, highly informed, sensitve and intelligent reasoning!?

And, "Miss Azizi"?
Does that come with a comedy accent?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:56 AM

Should Jo Brand be sacked for this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/4560371/BBC-faces-fresh-criticism-over-offensive-remarks-about-Baroness-Thatcher.html

The url appears to be too long so I can't make a blue clicky link.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:24 AM

No surprise that one of the Thatcher clan should come up with something like this. The death threats are out of order I agree, but also there is no doubt the Thatchers are not really very nice people.

As for the QI comments, anyone who upsets senior Tories is all right by me. Believe me they don't give a shit about any of us.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Betsy
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:39 AM

Gervase - I stand corrected .


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:52 AM

I find this whole incident difficult to form a firm opinion on, as no account I have read actually says what she said, or in what circumstances. Gervase seems to comment as if he knows what was said, who was there etc and so on: could you give us a link to your source?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM

Mark Twain was right, when he said "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:09 AM

"No surprise that one of the Thatcher clan should come up with something like this."
Jack, please - this is a family with serious problems.
A psychopathic mother, an idiot father, a criminal son who only managed to avoid being banged up by grassing on his mates and now a racist daughter with verbal diarrhea.
Have a little sympathy.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:22 AM

pc folks


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:40 AM

The continued use of such nasty terms is "energizing the thought". If we would all stop using them they would die out for lack of use. As long as we keep it going it will never die.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:01 AM

Death threats are inexcusable.

So are Carol Thatchers comments.

The reason that racist comments are extremely serious is that they come from and appeal to a part of all human beings that is capable of acts of vicious inhuman violence and cruelty.

This has been a consistent aspect of human nature for thousands of years and it continues today.

For those who have been on the receiving end of this, racist comments serve to perpetuate their fear that such attitudes still prevail.

People who go on about black people "having a chip on their shoulder" and "being oversensitive" and "PC madness" may ignore this fact of history if they wish.

They may attempt to excuse their blind contempt for the wrongs of history in whatever way they like.

But there are those of us who say NEVER AGAIN and we'll be a thorn in your side till the day we die.

So make your comments but expect to be confronted if you do.

And if I confront you, expect a rough ride.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:06 AM

Is saying someone's hair looks like a golliwog really a rascist remark? What if I said a girl looked like Barbie; sexist, perhaps? Or a sharp dresser looked like Blind Blake? Surely it's not the words but the intention. I'm hardly a fan of the Thatchers - and Carol T is just another whose only talent is self promotion - but was the remark really mean to belittle, hurt, intimidate etc. I assume these toys originated in the minstrel era when both black and white performers wore such clothes and makeup.
Terry Wogan on Radio 2 has on several occasions mentioned Lead Belly and Blind Lemon Jefferson being on the chain gang. As far as I know the latter bluesman was never so incarcerated so would the family of Mr Jefferson like to sue? Anything to get rid of him! TW that is.
Doc John


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:08 AM

I fully support Carol and in my opinion she did nothing wrong. Silly PC gone wild. We will soon have to address coloured people as Sir or Madam. Load of crap the whole business.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

I assume these toys originated in the minstrel era when both black and white performers wore such clothes and makeup.

Ok, when you've finished assuming you can inform yourself.

here

Golliwogs are a racist caricature of a stereotype view of Black people, created for our enjoyment and fun.

They humiliate black people and the humour attached to them was indicative of a mindset that denied black people the right to use the same toilets as white people or to drink from th same water fountains.

It ridiculed racial characteristics.

Often that ridicule was reinforced by violent humiliation and in some cases lynching.

We didn't know that before, we know it now.

But I have no doubt that many of us will reject this information, choose to ignore it and say:


"I fully support Carol and in my opinion she did nothing wrong. Silly PC gone wild. We will soon have to address coloured people as Sir or Madam. Load of crap the whole business."


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:45 AM

Thank you Laurel for clarifying what the heck people here are referring to.

~S~


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

So to summarise:-

Multiple wrongs don't make a right.
She was wrong.
The death-threateners are wrong.
Racist remarks are wrong.
Most agree that she's an overblown, untalented Hooray-Henrietta who's made a very good living trading off her mother's past job-history.
Now can we move on?
Please.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM

I've always believed racists, be they the ones that rove in packs looking for victims, those who shoot their mouths off in pubs among fellow non-thinkers, those who exploit their positions of authority and celebritι to spout their bile (whether they believe any of us unimportant outsiders are listening or not) and those bottle-less apologists closet dwellers who come to the defence of their particular 'superstar' - to be a somewhat spineless hypocritical breed.
The fact that nobody has been prepared to say where, or even, if a line should be drawn in abusing others, whether it is aimed at race, religion, colour, gender, or just differece, has done much to confirm that opinion - thanks for that!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:10 PM

Sorry Backwoodsman.....final word from me.

Would the brave opponents of racist comments about hairstyles, uttered by a woman who is obviously not the sharpest tool in the box, like to go and find some real racists to fight.
You certainly wont find them on this forum, no matter how much you try to provoke!

For myself, as a Communist Party member for many years, I've participated in demos where we had to face bricks bottles and boots in support of the AFL, and shed real blood fighting real racists.

So you may appreciate that I need no lectures from Lox,Rosie, or Azizi, on racism and how to fight it.
This particular issue is bullshit hyped by the media because it's a good story.

Get a life or get out on the fuckin' streets.....Ake


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

"Racist remarks are wrong"

Jim lad, what don't you understand about those four words?

Many have said, on this thread and others, that racism is intolerable. It's not necessary for each and every member of Mudcat to make a public statement detailing exactly which expressions they believe are intolerable just because you wish it to be so. It's a matter for each individual's conscience, and it only becomes an issue for the public domain if and when an individual transgresses the law of the land. It may be your personal cause celebre, and good luck, but we don't all have to state our beliefs in every minute detail just to give you a warm-fuzzy. We are still entitled to our privacy. 1984 came and went, and there are still no Thought Police.

So, all together now........

Racism is wrong.
Death threats are wrong.
Abuse of one human being by another, for whatever reason, is wrong.
Carol Thatcher is a snotty, spoilt, overbearing public-schoolgirl with a nasty gob and no obvious saving graces.

Now FFS, move on.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:19 PM

Backwoodsman, what exactly is it you're trying to say? ;-)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

And I wonder why Backwoodsman doesn't take his own advice...?
Lot's of other threads to post to.

If you don't like a thread, don't read it, and don't continue to post there. Pretty simple really.
But don't hypocritically demand or expect that other people do, what you refuse to do yourself.

And I really don't know why a silly provocative jibe directed at Azizi was required, she hasn't posted here. She may not even be aware of this thread. She is however one of the few posters onlist who might be qualified and well informed enough to speak intelligently on some of the associated issues.

Unfortunately rude personal comments like that, are not likely to encourage her to want to engage in any kind of discussion. Which I guess from the censorious tone of some "I don't want all you people discussing this subject any more!" comments here, may be thought as some kind of playground victory.

IMO Carol Thatcher is a bigoted, racist fuckwit. An opinion I am content to repeat as frequently as it pleases me. If you dislike other people expressing their personal opinions, in a legitimate debate on a public forum like this, then it might be advisible to not bother 'contributing' to it yourself and thereby helping to keep it going...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM

Rosie, I didn't make any kind of "silly provocative jibe directed at Azizi". Read again. No mention of Azizi. Why would I seek to insult someone whom I hold in very high esteem?

And what I'm trying to say, Spleen and Rosie, is that this thread, like the 'Folk Awards' thread before it (and many others, I daresay) has ceased to be a discussion. It's simply certain people with entrenched opinions going round and round and round, ramming those opinions down each others' (and everyone else's) throats and making wholly unreasonable demands that we all make declarations of what statements we do or don't consider racist. And it's getting nastier and nastier, just like the 'Folk Awards' thread.

The crazy thing is that most people (me included - I've said it twice) agree that CT's a waste of space and certainly not worth our licence-fee, and that she was absolutely wrong to say what she did, but banging away over and over does not constitute a discussion. And various people getting nasty isn't going to help. It's unnecessary, and it's ruining what should be a good discussion on a fine forum. That's my opinion. Like every other member, I'm entitled.   

Now I'll take your advice Rosie (although I don't believe it was well-meant, and neither do I care). Night-night.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Just had to come back to say ....Backwoodsman 12:17 post...I'm with you!!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Apologies Backwoodsman, the Azizi reference was in response to another poster. I didn't make that clear in my post.

I'm sure some threads on fora such as these, become tiresome and repetitious to many of us, and yet they still remain potentially interesting ground for debating and discussing thoughts on matters relevent to us all.

As a relative newcomer to Mudcat, I'm still interested in reading and responding to some of those issues.

My response to your two somewhat irritated posts that this debate is even going on, was not unpleasantly intended. I'm almost always wearing a wry smile when I post something which may be read as a little challenging in tone.. I should use emoticons more frequently to illustrate this.

Goodnight to you too.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:41 PM

Backward by name, backward by nature.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:00 PM

Oh so that wasn't your final word then ake?

Listen, see if you can understand this.

She thought it was amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a gollywog.

Mutiple choice; do you think she was,

a) right
b) wrong
c) don't care

If c) then whats your problem? why are you bothering to post?



Now here's the real interesting point.


You posted further back "just wait till the yanks wake up". You referred to Azizi.

Why?

Later you commented that you don't need to be lectured by Azizi and others.

I haven't seen any evidence in this thread of Azizi lecturing you.


So again, why have you referred to her?


looks like you're picking a fight with somebody because ... they are black?


You've busted yourself good and proper.

You have deliberately singled someone out based on their race to serve your own purposes, in the process potentially humiliating them.

Bit like Carol Thatcher.

Ake you are beneath contempt.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:07 PM

Thanks Rosie (see - I was still lurking!) :-)

Not irritated that a discussion is going on, just irritated that so many threads are hi-jacked by people with agendas, and with seemingly inadequate debating skills.

Interminably challenging others to somehow draw lines in the sand, or ranting on about this or that celebrity, or this or that Royal, or in this case CT, being a fuckwit (yep, I already knew what it meant - Terry Fuckwit is my wife's pet-name for me!), slagging off her mother (who, had she been of a different political stamp, had the strength and courage to be perhaps our greatest-ever PM, instead of the worst), posting abusive stuff regarding the parentage of people who can't answer for themselves, or abusing people who don't share someone else's personal opinions, is not a discussion or a debate. And, sadly, it seems to be becoming something of an epidemic, particularly amongst the UK membership.

Thanks again for your response. It's a pity that tone of voice, and facial expressions, are pretty much impossible to convey in print. But I'll try...    :-)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: meself
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM

People, please stop bandying the name of a certain member about; it can only cause her embarrassment, if not distress.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Address to the Unco Guid and the Rigidly Righteous.
Robert Burns.
   

My Son, these maxims make a rule,
An' lump them aye thegither;
The Rigid Righteous is a fool,
The Rigid Wise anither:
The cleanest corn that ere was dight
May hae some pyles o' caff in;
So ne'er a fellow creature slight
For random fits o' daffin.



O ye wha are sae guid yoursel',
Sae pious and sae holy,
Ye've nought to do but mark and tell
Your neibours' fauts and folly!
Whase life is like a weel-gaun mill,
Supplied wi' store o' water;
The heapθd happer's ebbing still,
An' still the clap plays clatter.

Hear me, ye venerable core,
As counsel for poor mortals
That frequent pass douce Wisdom's door
For glaikit Folly's portals:
I, for their thoughtless, careless sakes,
Would here propone defences--
Their donsie tricks, their black mistakes,
Their failings and mischances.

Ye see your state wi' theirs compared,
And shudder at the niffer;
But cast a moment's fair regard,
What makes the mighty differ?
Discount what scant occassion gave,
That purity ye pride in;
And (what's aft mair than a' the lave)
Your better art o' hidin.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:06 PM

Did someone mention Azizi? :0)

Here's her fabulous Myspace page...and check out this month's videos, which she moves over to her blogs, month by month. The Drakensberg Choir one is just wonderful, (note the rainbow skin colours, great to see!) as are all the others. Check out the two little guys with their drums..Absolute magic! :0)

Azizi's 'Cocojams' myspace page

And now....I'll leave you all to continue the rantings.. ;0)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: folk1e
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM

"The Upton Golliwogg was adventurous and sometimes silly, but, in the main, gallant and "lovable," albeit, unsightly." .... Quote from the Jim Crow book.

So the race hate figure of history started here .... Lovable, Gallant ..... how times change!
Thanks Lox .... now that I am informed I can say that, as racist comments go it is hardly the worst, is it? As per usual a phrase has evolved into something different for each person hearing (or saying) it.
So if the meaning of the phrase is determined by the hearer it doesn't matter what you mean to say, only what I want to hear?

If you wish to be literal then I am a racist! I have expectations of people that are dependant of their race, so what else can you call it? It does not mean that I would treat anybody differently, but that I would expect certain differences to be forthcoming! My expectations are on the whole based on my encounters with people of different races. I think it is only fair to say that I am also classist! This would probably be better understood by those on the eastern side of the pond! I would expect different attitudes and actions from people dependant on their social and financial background ...... and I think many of you do too!

If you don't believe me just think what the following names mean to you :- Gypsy, Irish, Sicilian, Scot, Tyke, Southerner, Trailer Trash, Ivy league, .... need I go on?
I suspect that some of you may have stronger opinions on some of those groups than me, but we do have opinions (and you will note that I have not said that any of those opinions are bad)!

We are all different I think it is sad that we can't, if not celebrate, then accept our differences in a positive light.
Jo Brand getting "upset" about a golliwogg comment is about as plausible as Marget Thatcher having a conscience ....... both are theoretically possible ................


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:55 PM

Folk le

Thanks for your post.

I made the following point in a PM to another catter with an equally enquiring mind.

"I do believe in drawing clear distinctions though, and characters like the golliwog are caricatures of racial stereotypes as opposed to individual characteristics.

That is how they can be defined as racist.

Just as discriminating on grounds of race as opposed to other more legitimate grounds is considered racial discrimination.

The humour value in racial caricatures is racist humour as it hones in purely on racial characteristics.

Big lips, fuzzy hair, white teeth, white eyes ... etc ...

There is a distinct lack of individual characteristics, as these are unimportant. All blacks are the same - they don't have individual characteristics and the dolls therefore don't need to caricature them to be funny.

Piccaninies, gollywogs etc are to black people what nazi propaganda films are to jewish people - as funny as a kick in the teeth and representative of nothing more than contempt and derision for black people.

I hope that helps you to understand why there is so much anger towards carol thatcher."

The Gollywog is just one of the many forms of the same caricature of black people.



On a seperate tack, Here is an interesting link.

Blue clicky


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:59 PM

"Racist remarks are wrong"
No; one and one equals three is wrong.
Racist remarks are racist, demeaning, arrogant, mindless, inhuman and potentially lethal - ask Stephen Lawrence's parents.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

To modify an earlier comment,

Ake, you are not personally beneath contempt, but your comments on this thread are.

More so because I am surprised by them, having read comments from you on other issues that have been interesting and enlightening.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:39 PM

For a history of "the golliwog" look
here.

folk le

Please note the six paragraphs that come before the one you referred to and take care to pay attention to the Enid Blyton and Agatha Christie references.

And add to the whole picture the fact that the term "Gollywog" has been used deliberately as a term of abuse.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:39 AM

"Not irritated that a discussion is going on, just irritated that so many threads are hi-jacked by people with agendas, and with seemingly inadequate debating skills."

Don't we all have agendas? Don't well all have a vested interest in the matters we discuss here (even those inarticulate and uneducated souls who are to crap to debate properly - whatever that means)?

I am a licence payer to a public service broadcaster, so if someone who is receiving remuneration from the BBC says something inappropriate, I'll comment on them as I see fit. I am a tax payer, so seeing as my money goes supporting the Monarchy which they accept, despite the fact I would much rather it didn't, I have a right to air my view on her and her family how I see fit. I was actively involved in Tory party politics as a Young Conservative and understand the machinations of the Senior Association at the time of Thatcher (around the time of the People's March for jobs) and therefore have some right to comment as I see fit. In fact, I will comment on any aspect of our life, culture or society, local to global, as I see fit.

We have a history a robust, vigourous and sometimes heated debate in this country which seems to be gradually being eroded into some sort tepid slimepool of mediocre discussion. It saddens and depresses me to see some of the responses to these debates ("stop calling him/her names! They're not here to defend themselves" etc etc) as if this absolves these people of some responsibilty to they way they behave at our expense and when beamed into our homes; it seems we're losing sight of the fact as a nation our iconoclasm and recalcitrance are some of our strongest traits, and expressing these feelings is becoming increasingly frowned on in this society and in this forum. This would be understandable were there a cultural reason for this; I think the Americans are very different in this respect in that they come across as less cynical of authority and celebrity (they are more positive towards success as a culture than we are to be sure), but the truth is in this country we are becoming less likely to speak out vehemently on issues criticising public figures that ever before, and that's not a good thing.

In the end, many people seem to forget these debates are not personal either and although we all loose our rag occasionally and type something we later regret, what the heck - simply admit you were wrong.

So I think Carol Thatcher is an unthinking, boorish lout and her mother is a contemptible old harridan who disgraced our country and was instrumental in destroying the feeling we all belong to the same society.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:13 AM

We will not put up with mediocrity and we've had it for too long. The British people would not put up with this silly PC. This country has had enough, we've not had good leadership. The Labour party may bow it's head to every Tom,Dick and Harry landing on our shores but I dam well won't. I'm worried about this country falling between the cracks because we've got a PM who's sort of brain dead and we got dope smoking old hippies now calling themselves "pressure groups" to cuddle these people arriving in "feeding bowl Britain" I am sick of those politely tip-toeing around the problem.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:55 AM

There, now look what you've done - now she's joined the argument - she'll get her mother started next - then the police - then she'll dig up Pinochet and his mates - and then where will we be????
Can't we just stick to talking about Bob Dylan???
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:19 AM

Who let the Daily Mail reader in?

Hmmm, Daily Mail reader - can they read?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:33 AM

Is "Daily Mail Reader" a deliberate pastiche!?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM

Certainly an oxymoron.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:02 AM

I agree to a point with Dail mail reader I agree that there is too much PC in this country but we should welcome vistors to our shores and allow them to find jobs here


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:24 AM

"Certainly an oxymoron. "
You got that half right.
"and allow them to find jobs here"
As Police Constables maybe?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 10:53 AM

Political correctness there is too much in this country where you are not allowed to speak your mind just in case you upset someone well I have an answer to get a life life is tough get used to it


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

"well I have an answer to get a life life is tough get used to it"

Goddammit, you're right Goatfell - I'm with you on this one. Sod the lot of them. Speak your mind without fear and hang their accursed pompousness and self-righteous flam and flatulence!

I'm gonna do it, I am . . . here goes . . . I'm going to say it . . .

Carol Thatcher says racist things and her brother is a villan (sorry Villan!) and her mother is an old bag and anyone who doesn't think so can go and furtle with their dangleberries!

My god that's better . . . cathartic or what? Now that's what I call adequate debating skills.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Andy
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM

well there's one here who wont piss for a week, just so i can let the lot go on her mother's grave. Nothing personal Carol


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

"anyone who doesn't think so can go and furtle with their dangleberries!"

Lol! Thanks for that one Sugarfoot...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:37 AM

oi! My new guitar case, strap and capo are from Dangleberries Music


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

her brother is a villan

Now then... even as a Saddler by birth I wouldn't wish that fate on Aston Villa...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:50 PM

There is, and should be a limit to free speech. Our supreme court ruled many years ago that yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is not free speech.
Neither is yelling obscenities in public.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

Kendall, that is all well and good. Dealing with the value of current market share prices doesn't relate to the current thread. The thread looks at the fact that Carol received a death threat for speaking in a manner you and I do on a daily basis.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:06 PM

"for speaking in a manner you and I do on a daily basis. "
You may do pal - only bigots do in my experience.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM

And that's the very same *false* presumption (that it's obvious and reasonable that everyone else must think and speak like she does), that has bit C Thatch on the bum.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:20 PM

I can and do speak whatever why I please Mr.C. No one tells me how to think, speak or act. I don't follow sheep and if I don't like something I will say it. All this silly talk about considering feelings of "touchy" people is a load of cobblers. It would appear people use such crap to promote leftwing politics in our country. It is a sad place since my growing up days. May I add, I support Carol and consider her to have done no wrong.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:42 PM

I'm glad you don't follow sheep ...

... I bet you gracefully accept their rejection of your advances.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:38 PM

I was raised with a modicum of manners. When George Washington was a young man he wrote a book of manners. They were very important in his day.
The meaning of manners is simple: Doing what makes others feel comfortable. I have no need to call attention to myself, like a 4 year old, by spouting racial slurs, using profanity in public or calling women by degrading nasty names such as John McWar did.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:09 AM

"Listen, see if you can understand this.

She thought it was amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a gollywog.

Mutiple choice; do you think she was,"

One point Lox, before you start asking multi-choice questions, a minor one I know but it is important to the discussion to actually inform the person you are asking the question of what was actually said.

She did not "think" it "amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a golliwog" did she?? She referred to a black French tennis player the one with the hair that looks like a golliwog.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:47 AM

"She did not "think" it "amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a golliwog" did she?? She referred to a black French tennis player the one with the hair that looks like a golliwog."

Hmmm . . . so you're suggesting what she actually meant his hair resembled some particularly intricate, impressive and inappropriate display of barnet topiary?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM

If she had called the black French tennis player a 'frog' or a 'cheese eater', would that have been rascist? Are images of rotund French men in striped jumpers, berets, string of onions etc rascist?
Or just a bit of harmless fun in context.
Incidentally it's a criminal offence (apart from being futile) to tell a speed camera to f--- off in the UK. That's the way free speech is going.
Doc John


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:05 AM

I am British, I am proud to be British, if someone from another country decides to come live in m country I expect them to respect me and my traditions. If they arrive and decide to live off my tax (which many do) I will speak out. If they get involved in serious crime I will again speak out. It they accept the British way of life and work for a living and keep their head down, well and good. If they decide to turn my country into the land they left and introduce their traditions,faith and crime I will not sit back and keep my bloody mouth shut because some arsehole in a woolie jumper with unwashed hair tells me to do so.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gedpipes
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:33 AM

DMR Thats the spirit. Well done! and keep that upper lip stiff.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:46 AM

I think DM reader obviously needs redirecting to that thread about "Isn't it bloody brilliant that all these illegal immigrants are flooding into the country, completely bumming off the state and destryoying our English culture to boot!! Yay, down with the English (or anyone who isn't a bit brown-skinned), we hate our own cultural traditions, and we want Muslims or Jewish people or other 'ethnic' types to rule the whole world, 'cos that'd be totally fab!" Rather than this one which is actually about a journo calling a tennis playing a gollywog... ;-)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:32 AM

"some arsehole in a woolie jumper with unwashed hair tells me to do so."

Back to dangleberries again.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:15 AM

"some arsehole in a woolie jumper with unwashed hair"

What exactly do you have against farmers?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:48 AM

"If she had called the black French tennis player a 'frog' or a 'cheese eater', would that have been rascist?"

No, because she would have been referring to nationality, not race.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:24 PM

"Daily Mail Reader"
Private Eye reader, surely - he's pulling our string!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:40 PM

And what does the hair of a Daily Mail reader look like anyway?
A comb over?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 07:59 AM

There is a difference between speaking out and ranting racial epithets.That sort of thing only creates more resentment and makes the situation worse. If you come at someone with your horns out, there can be only one result. Of course, if that's what you want, then be prepared for him to come back with HIS horns out.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:57 AM

Sleepy Rosie, I have just a little less than you have under your armpits !


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM

sounds like the ranting of the BNP daily mail reader


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 12:36 PM

Blimey, these threads do tend to flush out some unpleasant pond life. One can only hope that the sort of trolls like 'Daily Mail Reader' are actually too thick or lazy actually to vote.
People like that actually make me thankful I don't live in England any more. Yuk!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:26 PM

Gervase - I keep telling you; it's a wind-up. Nobody's that thi...... Oh - just remembered Last Night of The Proms!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

Sugarfoot Jack, What you're saying is it's OK to have national stereotypes but not racial one. The difference is very blurred as race is divided into many subraces who tend to inhabit different parts of the globe. A French lady is typically different from a Scandanavian lady, both delightful in different ways! A better example is to be found in the Oriental races: the Chinese, the Native North Americans, the Native South Americans and the Innuit are all subraces. There are plenty of cartoon stereotypes of the Irish, the Scots, the Australians, the Japanese and many others, all of which seem to be acceptable.
May I suggest the the problem arises from guilt from the disgraceful way the West has treated (and to some extent still treats) African races.
Doc John


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:10 PM

Daily Mail readers grow pubic hair on their heads...!
Is that a con-genital* defect?


* boom boom


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM

I see this imagine of your hairy chin sleeze Rose and it isn't very nice, Ahhhhhhhh.
I remain proud to be British. Thankfully those who throw their arms open at the dockside are learning a hash lesson. Sad people.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:07 PM

Hey man, whatever you want to fantasize about is up to you...
But here's something, just for my fans! Ooh, Cheeky! ;-)

(Note to self: Write out 100 times 'Must not feed the trolls, must not feed the trolls!')


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:17 PM

Rosie, you sex-goddess! Be mine, be mine!! LOL!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: folk1e
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:08 PM

I'm sorry to have to say this but ....... Get a life!

If saying someone looks like a golliwogg (and to be fair there is more than a passing resemblance) is so offensive to you, how do you cope with the racism of Israel? Or the exploits of the good old U.S. of A and Britain in Iraq and Afghanistan .... Or the Russians to the.... well you get my drift!

If you cant stand up against racial brutality and ethnic clensing ... (shudders).... do us all a favor and keep quiet about some of the more minor civil infringements!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:35 AM

Backwoodsman, are you playing your Love Games with me?

And for the hell of it, beause I find this one of the funniest things I ever saw...
I got The Funk

I don't think these links offer much to the discussion.
Unless blacked-up cross-dressing underwater monsters with seaweed hair are in some tangential way relevent to the thread...

Err, feel free to discuss?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:40 AM

"Sugarfoot Jack, What you're saying is it's OK to have national stereotypes but not racial one."

I haven't ventured an opinion in this case - I was answering your question about whether calling the black French tennis player a 'frog' or a 'cheese eater' was racist . . . and I'm not sure it is.

The population of a nation is made up of many different races, so calling the French "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys" doesn't strike me as being racist, although nationality is often a stick to beat people with; it happens often enough on this board.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:29 AM

LOL Rosie!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:37 AM

what about that eejit dutch politcan then!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:03 AM

"what about that eejit dutch politcan then!"

Tut tut, those liberal minded Dutch policies!
I guess that'll explain those "hash lessons" at the docks then?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:13 PM

"She did not "think" it "amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a golliwog" did she?? She referred to a black French tennis player the one with the hair that looks like a golliwog."

Oh well then Teribus - thanks to your help I am able to see that she meant to compare her to a golliwog in a more academic sense.

Your input is as usual of unquantifiable value.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:19 PM

"She did not "think" it "amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a golliwog" did she?? She referred to a black French tennis player the one with the hair that looks like a golliwog."

Oh well then Teribus - thanks to your help I am able to see that she meant to compare her to a golliwog in a more academic sense.

Your input is as usual of unquantifiable value.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 04:37 AM

"she meant to compare her to a golliwog in a more academic sense."

Lol! There's an entire sketch could be launched from that.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 06:59 AM

Do you mean this "her" - Lox & Rosie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo-Wilfried_Tsonga


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:04 AM

No, I think there must be some mistake, *that* black tennis player looks nothing like a golliwog...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:06 AM

Well that seals it then Teribus.

You have proved beyond doubt that Carols remarks were not only reasonable but an accurate description.

Good boy.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:07 AM

See here:

Spot the Difference


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:17 AM

You see teribus, I don't give a shit which black person Thatcher compared to a Golliwog.

Just as you fully understand my posts but don't give a shit.

And Carol thought it was all hilarious.

Just like you.



So let me be the firat to congratulate you in your brave fight to defend your right to be an insulting aggressive ignoramus.

Your banner portrays a simple message and is flying high.


Give yourself a pat on the back.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 08:02 AM

Well Guest Lox at least, before jumping in foot-first, frothing with indignation I knew who she was bloody well talking about and unlike you so far have offered no opinion on the matter at all. So do not put words into my mouth or take me to task for opinions that I have not offered.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM

Oh right - so you weren't supporting her then ...

... you were just trolling.

Well then I'll ignore your little pea shooter.

Who's frothing?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:26 PM

Thatcher was featured in a programme last year when she first went to Las Malvinas and spoke to the arogant oiks there, followed by a visit to Argentina where she met parents of Argentine conscripts who were slaughtered by the tattooed hoardes of the British Army. She behaved in a totally unacceptable. She showed herself to be as unfeeling as that other Thatcher woman.

But gollywogs - big fuss about nothing.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 08:00 AM

Bonzo3Legs:
Thatcher was featured in a programme last year when she first went to Las Malvinas and spoke to the arogant oiks there, followed by a visit to Argentina where she met parents of Argentine conscripts who were slaughtered by the tattooed hoardes of the British Army. She behaved in a totally unacceptable. She showed herself to be as unfeeling as that other Thatcher woman.
You seem unaware that the reason the British troops (tattooed hoardes) were present in The Falkland Islands (Las Malvinas) was because of an attempt by a local army to take possession of the islands by force, against the will of the public (arrogant oiks) then living there.
Re-writing geography & history reflects badly not on the name of Thatcher, but on the contrived name of Bonzo3legs.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:59 PM

"was because of an attempt by a local army to take possession of the islands by force"
A bit like the US, Britain, Israel....... et al..
They didn't realise that you had to be a club member before you invaded anywhere - silly bastards (unless you could make a case for W.M.D. of course).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM

what about the belgrano well she gave the order to sink it as it was sailing AWAY from the island just to start her wee war were so many people in uniform died just so she could stay in power


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Nigel,

I got the impression that Bonzos post was intentionally ironic and implying a view that if Thatcher were so inconsiderate then she might not have made such a trip.

I haven't seen the documentary so maybe Thatcher did behave inappropriately whilst there.

Either way, I don't think it particularly matters.

The main issue in this thread is whether death threats are ever acceptable.

The answer to that is of course a resounding no.

The secondary issue and the context of the discussion is whether it is reasonable for someone with considerable public influence to go round comparing Black People to Golliwogs and yet to expect that there should be no consequences at all.

The answer to that is also a resounding no.

Sadly a third issue has been whether it is acceptable take the opportunity in discussions about race to single people out and refer to them in a disparaging manner because of their race.

Once again the answer is no.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:58 PM

"The main issue in this thread is whether death threats are ever acceptable."
Only if you wish to make it so Nigel.
The main issue for many of us is whether people in the public eye should be ignored or excused when they spout racist garbage - a fairly common practice with some of the great and the good nowadays.
Any twerp can issue a meaningless death-threat - but it took a hard-nosed individual like her mother to actually put such threats into practice - with an election on the horizon of course - not to mention the many thousands of lives she ruined of course.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM

donot forget the miners who died during the miners strike .


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:04 PM

Or the people that the striking miners killed Cap'n


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:16 PM

You seem unaware that the reason the British troops (tattooed hoardes) were present in The Falkland Islands (Las Malvinas) was because of an attempt by a local army to take possession of the islands by force, against the will of the public (arrogant oiks) then living there.
Re-writing geography & history reflects badly not on the name of Thatcher, but on the contrived name of Bonzo3legs.

The local army you mention was acting under orders from the military junta, largely feared and hated by the Argentine people at that time, in an effort to divert attention from the dirty war. If you were to stand by the Malvinas Memorial in Buenos Aires as I have done many times on Malvinas Day in April - perhaps you would understand.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:28 PM

"Or the people that the striking miners killed Cap'n "
No surprise that a supporter of the slaughter of civilians in Gaza and a closet racist turns out to be a Thatcherite
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM

So Jim are you saying that the people "murdered" by striking miners should not be remembered?? That they are so much less than the victims you and captain Birdseye apparently seem to favour??


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:49 PM

No I am not - I'm saying that the frustration felt by people who were beings starved and driven back to work by a Prime Minster who was prepared to use the police force as a private army in order to break the strike should be understood in the context of what was happening at the time.
The men who threw the concrete and killed the taxi driver were punished, and rightfully so; the police who baton charged the strikers and their supporters were not, nor was the scab driver who crushed the picket to death.
When it comes down to it, the real criminal was your friend the racist's mammy, and she, like her friend Pinochet, will go to her grave unpunished, more's the pity.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:23 AM

Jim Carroll:
"The main issue in this thread is whether death threats are ever acceptable."
Only if you wish to make it so Nigel.

Please don't attribut other peoples words to me!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:30 AM

"The main issue in this thread is whether death threats are ever acceptable."
Sorry Nigel - my apologies - misread the posting
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:07 AM

Still jumping in with both feet again Jim??

Miners during the strike put themselves into a position of confrontation with the law. The police were deployed to ensure that picketing remained within the bounds of the law - it didn't. the Police were guiltless in discharging their duty.

You should PM another mudcat member, Bryn Pugh, he can tell you about going out with knitting needles dipped in shit and prepared to stick into police horses. The pair of you would get along together really well.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

"Still jumping in with both feet again Jim??"
Still brown-nosing the establishment Teribus
Thatcher's admiration for Pinochet made it quite clear that she would happily have adopted the tactics he used in Chile against anybody who opposed her - now there's a thought - Wembley Stadium as a holding/torture centre, just like Santiago.
Even the most neutral commentators of the strike could not avoid the obvious enthusiasm with which the 'guardians of law and order' supported Thatcher and her minions; from their waving of wage packets at the men on the picket line, the military-type charges through the mining villages, to the mounted baton-charges at Orgreave and other demonstrations
We were caught in a three hour traffic-jamb on the way to Manchester when the police (just) fell short of declaring martial law by barricading mining villages off the motorway - discharging their duty, my arse.
I find threads like this incredibly revealing - not from the behavior of a brain-dead like Carol Thatcher - you really wouldn't expect anything else.
On the one hand you have her and Prinny and the Duke spouting racist shite - and Terabus and his friends leaping to their defence; on the other, some poor saddo (if he/she wasn't an invention of Thatcher's PR squad) making a supposed death threat, and there are the brown-noses holding their collective hands up in horror. Does anybody take such things seriously? The (neutral) police certainly don't otherwise we would have road-blocks, strip searches and doors kicked in at midnight - after all, this is a THATCHER we're talking about. Even the scabloid press can't bother there arses with it.
Racism effects, damages, and even destroys peoples lives (not to mention killing people); those who indulge in it are thugs, and those who apologise for it are spineless thugs who haven't the bottle to act on their perverted beliefs.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:23 PM

"You should PM another mudcat member, Bryn Pugh, he can tell you about going out with knitting needles dipped in shit and prepared to stick into police horses."

Bryn Pugh, has not posted to this thread as far as I'm aware. He is not here to respond to your graphic and antagonistic allegation, be it true or otherwise.
I'm personally getting sick of seeing such personally directed aggro comments directed at other posters on Mudcat.
I hope there are some moderators observing the potentially slanderous comments on this thread.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:32 PM

Oh Sleepy they are certainly no slanderous comments on this web-site, but then of course there wouldn't be would there?

Slander applies to the spoken word it's libel that applies to the written word.

Check Bryn Pugh's posts and you will find that he boasted about it before going out to join the picket lines, oddly enough I think that was another anti-Thatcher type thread.

More highly emotive left-wing clap-trap Jim - lot of words saying absolutely SFA - start taking more water with it Jim.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:46 PM

OK, maybe 'Potential Slander' was the wrong term, perhaps 'Actual Smuggery and Twatship' would be more legally correct? Must go and check my OED... ;-)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

"I'm personally getting sick of seeing such personally directed aggro comments directed at other posters on Mudcat." - Sleepy Rosie

You mean like:

"OK, maybe 'Potential Slander' was the wrong term, perhaps 'Actual Smuggery and Twatship' would be more legally correct? Must go and check my OED"

Obviously not that sick eh?? By the bye you needn't bother checking

- Slander = spoken word
- Libel = written word

Unlike yourself or Jim I check before I write.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:57 PM

Didn't think I would come back to this nonesense, but having read an interesting article in today's Times on religious sectarianism among football "supporters", I wondered if Lox would like to clambour into the Rangers end at Parkhead taking his righteous indignation with him, rather than getting into a hissy fit about golliwog remarks made by one of the intellectually challenged.
It would certainly improve his perspective regarding bigotry, if not the shape of his head!

And by the way Lox you fucker, before you start grovelling again, try "amending" the really offensive part of your post, which inferred that I was bigoted against another member because she is black.
I have issues regarding the agenda of said member, but none regarding her race or colour!
If you cant see my previous posts stating my opposition to racists and racism, then you must be blind as well as stupid.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:00 PM

Rosie ...please stay in Numptyland....it's cold and hard down here!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM

Ake,

I didn't infer or imply anything.

I said you singled her out.

Which you did.

I don't think you're a bigot but I do think you made an error of judgement.

It might be arguable that I had an agenda, or that you did, or that Teribus does, but in the absence of any posts whatsoever from the person in question it is hard to see how she has any relevance to this thread.

There are plenty of people on this site who share her views - you could have chosen one of them.

I'll just have to accept that its a coincidence.

By the way, I've been all over this world, and met real bigots and challenged them and my head is just fine thanks - though you're more likely to find me at the Celtic end.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

>"OK, maybe 'Potential Slander' was the wrong term, perhaps 'Actual Smuggery and Twatship' would be more legally correct? Must go and check my OED"

Obviously not that sick eh??<

Fair enough. My guess is that's the first instance here, of me breaking my own rule not to engage in personally directed shit-throwing.

I retract my comments.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

Unlike yourself or Jim I check before I write.
And always makes sure the pomposity and self-delusion UDK is fully engaged and turned up to 11.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM

Much appreciated Rosie thank you.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:43 AM

Teribus -

perhaps YOU should check my threads. I spoke in terms of hatpins not knitting needles.

Jim Carroll and I get, and got, on extremely well, thank you.

He and I shared many a convivial evening of song and politics. Jim Carroll is a man whom I admire and respect, and whom I am proud to call a friend.

Birds of a feather gregariate, of course.

Now, get back under your bridge, before I call Great Big Billy Goat Gruff to see to you.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM

Ah thanks for that clarification Bryn it was hat pins dipped in shit that were prepared so that they could be stuck into police horses.

I'm sure that there is some sort of fine humanitarian distinction there that I am missing out on - perhaps less painful for the horses without losing the toxic effect was it??

I still find anyone admitting to such a reprehensible practice or condoning it beneath contempt.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:11 AM

Teribus -

If being beneath your contempt was my only problem, I wouldn't have a care in the world.

Moreover - it wasn't the horses that such implements were stuck into.

Draw your own conclusions.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

Will you two get a room?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:47 PM

"Moreover - it wasn't the horses that such implements were stuck into." - Bryn Pugh

Well then Jim-Lad still want to tell me about law-abiding "miners" peacefully protesting??


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

Apologists for Thatchers brown shirts, and for the British government's actions in the North of Ireland, wouldn't understand the use of such tactics. But then they never have understood. They didn't understand it in the 1770's, the 1970's, or any other time. When one is facing an adversary that has them outgunned, and uses the cover of the establishment to justify their evil agenda, then those that are fighting for a legitimate cause fight back using whatever tactic will allow them an edge. I do not expect apologists to get this. But there it is.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:36 AM

"When one is facing an adversary that has them outgunned, and uses the cover of the establishment to justify their evil agenda, then those that are fighting for a legitimate cause fight back using whatever tactic will allow them an edge." - Big Mick

So according to that you must see nothing wrong at all with Al-Qaeda's attacks of the 11th September, 2001 Big Mick

Big Mick if you are saying that the "ends justifies the means" then you would be demonstrating a naivety beyond belief if you were to further state that that only applied to one side in any situation.

Some examples from Northern Ireland:

- Are you telling me Big Mick that the paramilitaries didn't torture people? Mrs Jean McConville would disagree were she still alive.

- Are you telling me that the paramilitaries did not pursue a "Shoot-to-kill" policy? Even extending to their own if the PR angle could be worked to their advantage.

- Are you telling me that the paramilitaries in their bombing campaigns did not deliberately and indiscriminately target innocent civilians?

If you are prepared to use whatever means you have at your disposal to combat an enemy - you have no right whatsoever to complain or feel outraged if your opponent does exactly the same.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:49 AM

Mick - do you know which dispute Bryn is referring to?

The fight Bryn was involved in is NOT comparable to the situation in the North of Ireland, and to compare the two demonstrates a real misunderstanding of what was happening at the time.

Shine on - if only this godawful woman had stuck to making Mr Whippy the world would surely be a better place.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:52 AM

Some years ago while she was appearing on UK TV programme Channel 4, Ms Thatcher told host Richard Whitley that she intended to tell an Irish joke, although she was cautioned by Whitley and told `Countdown` was very popular in Ireland and some people might find the joke offensive, she continued to tell the `joke`.
The basis of the `joke` was, "NASA sent its latest rocket to the moon carrying an Irishman and a monkey. The monkeys training and instructions were to measure air pressure, collect soil samples,etc,
The Irishmans instructions were to feed the monkey",.
Whitley was clearly embarrassed and did what he could to save face from a startled and silent audience.
This woman hasn`t changed, although she can be excused as her character is inborn.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:52 AM

Aye - as thay say where I come from, What's bred in the bone'll come out in the flesh.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:38 AM

Here's one for all the thick paddy's ...



... An Irishman came to London looking for work.

Typical of all Irishmen in London, the first place he looked was a building site.

He asked the foreman "misther d'ye have any woork" (he had a strange accent)

to which the foreman replied - I do - but first you have to tell me the difference between a joist and a girder ...

The Irishman scratched his head and said:

"well now .. Sure thats aisy ... didn't joist write "ullysses" and didn't girder write "faust"?"



Boom boom


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:33 AM

"This woman hasn`t changed, although she can be excused as her character is inborn."

Well, I don't subscribe to nature over nurture as a way of absolving people of responsibility for their actions so I won't excuse her. This woman is still feted in the Conservative Party as being one of the best Prime Minister's ever and there are plenty in this country who share the same view. The damage she has done to the people of these Islands is going to take a long time to heal, even without the agitation of those who don't live here and have to live with the consequences.

Bollocks to the cow, her criminal brother and her bigoted daughter.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:40 AM

Criminal son ...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:55 AM

Whatever.

Bollocks to people posting jokes about thick Paddys too.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:26 AM

I think the 'thick Paddies joke' was supposed to be ironic. ie: it's a joke where the punchline demonstrates that it's actually lambasting 'thick Irish jokes', and as such, in this context Lox is likewise lambasting Thatchers own golliwog joke..

Maybe you recognised that and still thought it inappropriate?

Such humour which highlights issues such as racism, where there has always been a nicely virulant cesspool of 'traditional' stereotype based jokes, is an interesting one though.
Particularly where it does and doesn't work, or can be seen as acceptable?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM

"Maybe you recognised that and still thought it inappropriate?"

In all honesty no I didn't, so I apologise if my remarks cause offence as a result of my own ignorance, but then I've become so disillusioned on these sort of threads of late perhaps it's time to take a break.

So much hatred and ignorance. What a fucking world we've built for ourselves.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

Sadly we live in times were people get singled one for expressing a viewpoint. This lady made a private remark and walked into a storm, there is no need for it. Take for example the case of preacher Abu Qatada. He has been awarded £2,500 cash compensation by European judges who ruled that his detention without trial breached his human rights.

But 24 hours later he won a separate case in the European Court of Human Rights that his detention under anti-terror laws introduced by the Government after the 2001 attacks on America violated the Human Rights Convention.

Ten others detainees under the rules - none named by the court - also received similar modest cash awards. The human rights judges said the amounts were "substantially lower" than awards granted in previous cases of "unlawful detention".


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

"I've become so disillusioned on these sort of threads of late perhaps it's time to take a break."

Lol! I was thinking I aught to do the same last couple days, instead of getting my knickers in a twist all the time! And in response to the joke thing - I do think it can be all too easy to rattle off a mistaken response to something that's been misread on a 'heated' thread.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:20 AM

Chill out Rosie, nothing is worth getting annoyed over. Sadly today we all have to tip toe around everyone and almost every subject. I say as see and sod anyone who doesn't like it. Hope to see you back soon.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: meself
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:22 AM

"Take for example ... "

Umm ... example of what, exactly?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM

I am well aware of the differences in the two events. I am not comparing them. I am making the case that Teribus seeks to denigrate any issue that is counter to his well known support for all things Brit conservative. He then uses elementary debate tactics to try and shift the premise. This debate isn't about what the para's did in the North of Ireland. And my comment didn't seek to change to that. It simply pointed out that Teribus sought to denigrate the cause the miners fought for, and defend the brutal tactics used against them, because they found tactics to use to attempt to defend themselves.

In both circumstances, (labor actions and the Irish in the North of Ireland) one thing, IMO, is not in dispute. At the root of the problem, the tactics used by folks against the establishment were the result of actions by the British government.

As to the terrible acts that occur in conflict and war, unlike some here, I understand them from a ground level. I understand what causes it, and I understand the brutality of it. Some talk it from a philosophical level, others have actually lived it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:25 AM

Well said Mick.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:30 PM

"Some talk it from a philosophical level, others have actually lived it"

Well, we all lived it in this country. We lived through the troubles on these Islands, and we lived through the Thatcher years, but I've gone into my experiences there elsewhere and can't be arsed to type it all out again

Just because I haven't fought a war doesn't mean I don't have a clue what I'm talking about - I was still here when it happened. One of the 4 million. I could never understand the horrors of fighting like as I haven't been through them, but I've seen the consequences like many of us have.

" At the root of the problem, the tactics used by folks against the establishment were the result of actions by the British government."

Well, Thatcher turned the police into her own private army for the duration of the miners strike and afterwards too - witness theThe Battle of the Beanfield. Trivial though this event may seen when placed in context just after the devastation of the miner's strike, this brutal police action simply proved the force was now not the protector of the people, but an enemy. This profound change in viewpoint has never really left the British public in my opinion. The fact the police can still kill innocent civilians and get away with it only proves the point.

The continuing tragedy of the Thatcher years is the fact a so-called Socialist party got into government and then continued the policies of the old sow and her cohorts; what a fine mess that's turned into.

Where we go now in this country is anyone's guess.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:42 PM

Jack, I apologize if my comments seemed to be directed at the folks living through the trauma of these events. It was not meant to do so. It was really directed at certain commentators on this forum that seem to adapt a morally superior attitude about conflict and war by describing atrocities and acts committed by the side that they oppose as justification for their support of status quo. Usually these people either have no experience other than what they have read, or they were involved only peripherally, not in the thick of it.

When there is armed conflict, bad things happen. Otherwise decent people do things that they never want to describe to anyone. Atrocities happen on both sides. But at the root of these problems, be they a strike or an armed conflict, there is a cause. And the cause of both of these problems, IMO, and broadly stated, is the actions of the British government to protect the money of the industrial elite. If one wants to have a fruitful discussion, concentrate on that and not the tactics that are used at the ground level. Those tactics arise from what one is faced with and have little to do with the why of what perpetuates conflict. And trying to use them as justification is simply obfuscating discussion of the real issues.

Mick


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM

"witness theThe Battle of the Beanfield. Trivial though this event may seen when placed in context just after the devastation of the miner's strike, this brutal police action simply proved the force was now not the protector of the people, but an enemy."

Dittoed your thoughts on this earlier myself..


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

I agree Mick.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: meself
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:51 PM

"Otherwise decent people do things that they never want to describe to anyone."

While other "otherwise decent people" are pleased to describe the steps they took to inflict nasty injuries on their perceived enemies ...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM

"witness theThe Battle of the Beanfield"
"this brutal police action simply proved the force was now not the protector of the people, but an enemy."

Actually, I think what in particular this horrendous and actively repressed incident demonstrated was how legitimised uniformed violence meted out upon apon the inoccent could so easily occur, where the group/s in question had already been 'dehumanised' in the eyes of the 'common man' by propaganda...

And I think this incident along with that of the miners strike, demonstrate the effectiveness of propaganda designed to 'alienate' a group, diminish their humanity and distinguish them as 'other'.

Think in the context of the rampantly Capitalist ethos of Thatchers Britian, how easy it was for media propaganda to effectively publicly legitimise and gain the 'common mans' acceptance of and even emotional collusion in, the violent and oppressive actions of 'the authorities' against groups who they did not identify as being a part of their increasingly aggresively Capitalist world.

Miners = 'commies'
Travellers = 'bums'

Both groups were 'other'. And as such these incidents are akin in some ways, and pertinant to some of the issues this thread raises, in relation to propagandist tactics (conscious or instinctual) of 'dehumanising' and alienating of groups (such as black people) which we see evidence of in the continued public acceptance of racial stereotyping, in both popular image and language.

Which brings us back to the OP.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:02 AM

"But at the root of these problems, be they a strike or an armed conflict, there is a cause. And the cause of both of these problems, IMO, and broadly stated, is the actions of the British government to protect the money of the industrial elite." - Big Mick

Really Big Mick?? Sounds like a load of apologist rubbish to me. Very, very convenient. How come it is always the left that immediately resorts to violence and threats of violence Big Mick?? And they always have an excuse for it, that for some strange reason can only ever apply to their side of any situation.

Is it because they can never see any other way?? I myself have been threatened by members and Guests on this forum - all left-wing, all socialists.

In the case of the striking miners:

There were clearly stated laws detailing what was considered to be legal industrial action and what was considered to be illegal action. The miners and their "supporters" broke the law, the police acted in accordance with their duty to uphold the laws of the land, which Big Mick, can be challenged and changed in Parliament. Bugger all to do with protecting the money of the industrial elite - What "industrial elite" had money to protect in British National Coal Board?? The whole fiasco came about because a complete and utter prat called Scargill thought that he could dictate to the elected Government of the United Kingdom. The strike was far from "national" in coverage, Scargill was afraid to put the matter to a national ballot so unsure was he of the outcome of such a ballot.

Public opinion during the strike was divided and varied greatly in different regions. Overall, the government generally had more support than the miners.

When asked in a Gallup poll in July 1984 whether their sympathies lay mainly with the employers or the miners, 40% said employers; 33% were for the miners; 19% were for neither and 8% did not know.

When asked the same question in December 5 – 10 1984, 51% had most sympathy for the employers; 26% for the miners; 18% for neither and 5% did not know.

When asked in July 1984 whether they approved or disapproved of the methods used by the miners, 15% approved; 79% disapproved and 6% did not know.

When asked the same question in December 5 – 10 1984, 7% approved; 88% disapproved and 5% did not know.

In July 1984, when asked whether they thought the miners were using responsible or irresponsible methods, 12% said responsible; 78% said irresponsible and 10% did not know.

When asked the same question in August 1984, 9% said responsible; 84% said irresponsible and 7% did not know.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:06 AM

ITN (second major TV channel in the UK) edited out the police violence from their news coverage of Battle of the Beanfield. A later documenary went some way to remedy the initial media collusiion.

Operation Solstice
Operation Solstice, part 2

I remember that at the time 'the people' really couldn't give a flying feck about riot police attacking a bunch of bums..


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:54 AM

Aye, well, any fool can use "statistics" to bolster specious arguments.

I don't remember seeing you on the picket lines in the 1970s, meself ? Perhaps next time you, and Teribus, will introduce yourselves.

(I don't hit people I haven't been introduced to.)

Oh dear - I wonder if the foregoing sentence will be taken by Teribus as a threat from a left-wing socialist ?

Perhaps I had better withdraw it.

Only trouble is, I am hidebound by what that French philosopher said : I disagree with what you are saying, but will defend to the death your right to say it.

Hence : Carol Thatcher is, IMO, a blot. Her remarks are indefensible, but not deserving of death threats, any more than crypto-fascist comments in 'Cat threads deserve of anything more than to be ignored.

I think Sleepy Rosie (sut mae, cyfeill ?) said something similar earlier in this thread.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM

Talking of specious arguements Bryn:

"The men who threw the concrete and killed the taxi driver were punished, and rightfully so; the police who baton charged the strikers and their supporters were not, nor was the scab driver who crushed the picket to death." - Jim Carroll

The miners who threw the concrete post from the bridge onto the taxi knew the following:

- Their actions were dangerous and likely to cause serious injury or loss of life.

- Their actions were wrong

- Their actions were illegal

Their actions caused the death of the driver of the taxi, they were arrested, tried and found guilty of manslaughter and were sent to prison as Jim Carroll says "rightfully so". What could not be proven in the case of this death was "intent to kill" hence the charge of manslaughter not murder. Mind you anybody who thinks that dropping a concrete fence post from a motorway bridge onto a car isn't going to kill anyone in the car has got to be pretty thick. Almost as thick as believing that killing one "scab" is going to instantly drive the thousands of miners who continued to work throughout the strike into supporting it. Any way you look at it, it was a vicious, mean and idiotic act, that did much to turn the general public against the miners. The previous decade hadn't done much for the Trade Union movement's standing in any case - that was one of the reasons that Margaret Thatcher had been elected in 1979.

What "crime" was committed by the police officers?? None, which is why quite rightly they were neither charged, tried or punished.

As for the "scab driver who crushed the picket to death", what should he have been charged with Jim?? What should he have been punished for??

- The picket who died should not have been where the driver could have run over him.

- No-one knows how he came to fall

- The driver was completely unaware that the man was there

Under English Law there most certainly would have been an investigation and there would have been an inquest - Care to tell us all what the verdict of the inquest was Jim?? You possibly will not, nor will your pal Bryn Pugh, Accidental Death would be my guess, because there were no charges brought.

Isn't it funny that "statistics" are only ever rubbish if they don't support your arguement. The results of the Polls taken were as they were, take them as an indicator or not, that is entirely up to you. If however you then state in the face of them that the Strike had the support of the general public in the UK, you had best come up with some means of backing that statement up. Another, rather good, indicator as to the support the strike had can be seen for the reatcion to it within the other trade unions, wasn't really all that great was it?? And then you would have to explain exactly how and why the Union of Democratic Mineworkers came into being.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:36 AM

"How come it is always the left that immediately resorts to violence and threats of violence Big Mick??"

Talk about people in glass houses . . . seeing as the right-wing (including B.Liar etc) have spent the last few years bombing, torturing and killing people in large numbers whilst pursuing policies based on lies, deceit and obsfucation I find it incredible you feel the left has a case to answer for this.

The miners weren't the 'left' - they were people fighting for their jobs, communities and way of life. And they lost it, along with so many others, especially heavy industry etc. They were systematically prevented from trying to make their point by the brutal suppression of the police force acting above the law as they assaulted and beat people. Sticking shitty pins in people isn't nice, but then neither's having your head stove in in a horse charge by an armoured thug when you're trying to stop your community from dying. There's 300 years worth of deep coal in the mines of the UK; find a way to eliminate the carbon emissions from burning it and you've got enough energy without resorting to nuclear (the industry the right seems determined to foist on us and our neighbours regardless), you've go a breathing space to create renewable and clean sources of energy. The miners were right. McGregor and Thatcher were very wrong, and everyone knows it whether you acknowledge it or not. Scargill was right, full stop.

Mick said earlier that ". . . the cause of both of these problems, IMO, and broadly stated, is the actions of the British government to protect the money of the industrial elite."

I was thinking about this and my experience with the Tory party as a Young Conservative in the 1980's, and I have to say I agree partially but there's more to it than that. Thatcher had an ideology that appealed to the 'me' culture of the early 80's. She espoused individualism and greed as being desirable, and the idea of community and social cohesion as anachronistic and 'left-wing'. She even quoted St. Paul saying "If a man will not work he will not eat" - she then shut down the coal industry and ravaged the steel and shipbuilding industries so many people and towns relied on.

No threats from me Tezza - not my style. I'll stick to pointing out how wrong you are.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM

Trotting out that tired old emotive socialist twaddle is no substitute for reasoned arguement or logic.

Tell us all why British Industry should pay £250/ton for coal when they could get it from elsewhere for £8/ton.

Tell us all why the British Taxpayer had to subsidise the national Coal Board to the tune of millions per day.

Tell us why British Manufacturers should pay over the odds for British Steel when they could get it cheaper elsewhere.

Tell us all why the British Taxpayer had to subsidise British Steel to the tune of millions per day.

Explain how British industry could remain competitive once EU legislation eliminated the Government subsidies to the Coal, Steel and Ship-building industries.

Please tell us where in the UK the 350,000 to 500,000 ton supertankers, VLCC's, etc could have been built.

300 years of deep coal left in UK mines, I actually thought that it was more than that. And this resource you want to burn as a stop-gap?? How idiotic could you be, coal is far, far too precious to burn if you are looking at the long term.

You are welcome to try and prove me wrong, but to that you'll need reasoned arguement not rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:15 PM

"Trotting out that tired old emotive socialist twaddle is no substitute for reasoned arguement or logic."

Er, actually it is. Your constant evocation of cold hard logic as being the only way to form any sort of government policy is fine until you factor in soft, warm, emotive human beings and then all these arguments become a matter of conscience, pure and simple. So by ignoring the fact actual people are involved, and arguing in a manner which excludes them from any discussion except as statistics or abstract constructs to be shuffled about like counters on a gaming board you avoid the fundamental truth - you don't give a fuck about them (I'm not talking about people you know personally, but everyone else). This is why Thatcher was such an evil cow: she had bypassed her conscience and treated entire industries and populations without giving a toss about the consequences for living, breathing people.

It's the fundament flaw of the right they do not seem to have a conscience; truth is that they might well do and simply do not care (in my experience this is the case). It's why New Labour is the bastard offspring from the unholy union of Thatcher and those ex-socialists corrupted by the capitalist lie of consumerism as the balm for a troubled society and the promotion of a culture of aspiration; those that can't or don't want to be involved are sidelined and treated with the unreasoning disdain of the middle classes and their masters.

It's all about conscience, and how much you're willing to let people suffer.

"Tell us all why British Industry should pay £250/ton for coal when they could get it from elsewhere for £8/ton."

Do you know where this coal comes from and why it cost £8 a ton? Because the people mining it are treated like shit, not allowed to join unions to protect their rights and (in the case of the Columbian coal industry) they are routinely killed for trying to do so. It's cheap because the health and lives of those mining it is deemed cheap.

As for subsidising the coal and steel industries; after the events of the last few months I see no reason why protecting communities (I have a feeling you're not understanding the importance of this point) can't be paid for by the tax payer if the bonuses of the tossers who have brought the economy to it's knees can be.

You know Tezza, these people don't give a fuck about you or me. They don't care you defend them to the hilt, argue in favour of their self-serving policies or justify their outrages against their own (not to mention other) people. They could not give a shit about any of us. You would lay down you life at their behest and they wouldn't blink or lose a moment's sleep.

Come over mate - we care on the left! People first!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

"It's all about conscience, and how much you're willing to let people suffer.

"Tell us all why British Industry should pay £250/ton for coal when they could get it from elsewhere for £8/ton."

Do you know where this coal comes from and why it cost £8 a ton? Because the people mining it are treated like shit, not allowed to join unions to protect their rights and (in the case of the Columbian coal industry) they are routinely killed for trying to do so. It's cheap because the health and lives of those mining it is deemed cheap."

Oh dear, "because people mining it are treated like shit" - Maybe some of out Australian 'catters can tell us if their mining industry treats its miners like shit - But I don't think so. You see denigrater of cold logic and reason - that is where the coal at £8 per ton came from - Australia. The reason it was so cheap was because the mines producing it were very large open cast mines.

As for the rest of your post - more populist, meaningless, trendy, left-wing, socialist waffle.

You can care all you want but every socialist attempt at Government the world has known has ended in disaster and ruin, the result of the policy of political dogma taking precedence over common-sense, prudence and responsibility.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:30 PM

........the result of the policy of political dogma taking precedence over common-sense, prudence and responsibility.

Yes Tezza...... I can see the result of conservative, common sense, prudence and responsibility every day in the news. Thanks for pointing that out.

Mick


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:08 PM

"every socialist attempt at Government the world has known has ended in disaster and ruin"

Really, not one exception...?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:28 PM

"It simply pointed out that Teribus sought to denigrate the cause the miners fought for, and defend the brutal tactics used against them, because they found tactics to use to attempt to defend themselves." - Big Mick

Taking a look at the instances of violence on the picket lines it was the norm that it started with objects (stones, bricks,etc) being thrown at the police.

Now that could be passed off as opportunist, spur of the moment type of reaction combined with anger and frustration. However dressing up in leathers and crash helmets and taking along hat pins dipped in shit smacks of cold blooded premeditation. Same as those left-wing working class "heroes" who carried a concrete fence post onto a bridge crossing a dual carraige way intending to drop it onto a specific taxi cab - legitimate protest!! Not on your life by any means or reason.

People who deliberately leave their homes looking for trouble generally find it. The trouble is that it is often the case that they are not the ones who pick up the bill for it. Please do not expect me to condone or feel any empathy for their actions or rally round and condemn the police for upholding the laws of the land when confronted by such scum masquerading as decent people.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM

Hey Sugarfoot,

No stress, it is exactly folks like you (and me) that that joke was written for and the first time I heard it I stopped the teller to say "this better have a good punchline"

I totally understand your initial reaction and if Rosie hadn't commented I would just have egged you on, with a wink, to have a closer look.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

"Oh dear, "because people mining it are treated like shit" - Maybe some of out Australian 'catters can tell us if their mining industry treats its miners like shit - But I don't think so. You see denigrater of cold logic and reason - that is where the coal at £8 per ton came from - Australia. The reason it was so cheap was because the mines producing it were very large open cast mines."

It's got nothing to do with the Australians, but you might like to take a closer look at the Columbian and South African operations. Or perhaps you won't.

"As for the rest of your post - more populist, meaningless, trendy, left-wing, socialist waffle."

Cheers mate - not very often I get called populist or trendy though. Cool. Rad. At least it's from the heart.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM

Who was it characterised Socialism as "The politics of envy"?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

Perhaps one can categorize the desire for fairness in wages and working conditions "envy", but if that is the case, count me in the legion.

Once again, Teribus creates incorrect premises, then builds sterling arguments, and sits back and is pleased with himself. But life doesn't occur in a vacuum. It is easy to make comments about miners preparing themselves to not let scabs across picket lines. But it still comes down to the fact that your heroes weakened the laws that allowed folks to strike peaceably and have some measure of leverage, and then when the predictable violence happens, as is the case when people watch their ability to feed families and make a living, you point fingers at them and talk about how they are thugs. I am one of those thugs. You all thought it was OK when we went off and fought for Royal Shell's bottom line. But dare we fight with tooth and nail to preserve our way of life, wages, working conditions, and families well being and you apologists for the right are quick to point that violence occurred.

The right creates self fulfilling prophecies to manipulate the working folk. They heard you like sheep and you just follow along. In the end result, if one REALLY applies logic and intellect, they will find at the root of these problems, the money changers. But ..... and this is where Teribus, in all his smugness, blows it. You see, he only digs deep enough (play on words intended) to find what he is looking for. In other words, he digs to find only the things that support his prejudices, and stops. The system that works best is the one where there is balance between the power of capital and the power of labor. That is what allows collective bargaining to occur. Anything less is begging.

Mick


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

Big Mick, your last post makes absolutely no sense at all.

Sugarfoot Jack/Strindsinger/ Frank Hamiltom or whoever it has got absolutely fuck all to do with mining in Columbia or South Africa and how they treat their miners. The choice for British industry was quite stark and simple you either pay £250 per ton for British coal or you pay £8 per ton for Australian coal. As someone buying in raw materials I'd love to hear your arguements for paying 30 times what you have to to pay for the same commodity and yet make any atempt to stay competitive in the world market.

I know I am mentioning two words there that "socialists" absolutely dread "competition" and "market", because both imply that you actually have to excell and win in both, whereas they delight in mediocrity.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:07 PM

Of course it doesn't, TB, for exactly the reasons I cited. You have an inability to grasp things outside your own reality.

Competitiveness based on human suffering is an evil force. Witness the child sweat shops that are located around the world. Witness the unfair competition created when third world countries don't have to be bothered by such things as environmental laws, and fair labor laws. Your absolute refusal to recognize such things as having an impact on the debate, instead falling back on buzz words like "competition" and "market" is why these arguments make no sense.

Quite frankly, Tezza, your attitude is disgusting.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:08 AM

I don't know - you go away for a few days and come back to chaos!!!!!
Don't know why I'm surprised to find the pretentiously and self-importantly pseudonymed Terribus (is 'War Cry' still published by The Salvation Army?) with his ultra-right proboscis still firmly jammed up the rear end of the establishment!
" Well then Jim-Lad still want to tell me about law-abiding "miners"
I knew Bryn as a fine singer many years ago; I do not agree with his attitude here, nor do I believe it to be either helpful or representative of the striking miners actions – do you? By the way, I understood Bryn to be a member of the legal profession – I certainly never knew he was a miner.
Interesting to see that the actions of the miners are all being compared to 9-11, and Irish terrorist activities; (surely you could have fitted the somewhat incontinent Israeli army in there somewhere) – do you really have as low an opinion of British workers as that?
"Taking a look at the instances of violence on the picket lines it was the norm that it started with objects (stones, bricks, etc) being thrown at the police."
Yes, I see you do have such a low opinion – utter bollocks – the vast majority of pickets were peaceful ones, the handful of violent ones got the publicity – prove your statement.
"The miners and their "supporters" broke the law"
As distinct from the Thatcher Government who manipulated the law and used the police force as a private army in order to break the strike,.
......" the police acted in accordance with their duty to uphold the laws of the land"
See above.
All the incidents I outlined earlier which our rabid right friend dismissed as left-wing propaganda are well documented; the provocation of miners on strike pay by the police by waving money at them; the Orgreave mounted baton charges (still have the press cutting of the woman about to have her head split in two by a mounted guardian of the law); and then there was a (leftie, no doubt) BBC documentary on the events); the near declaration of martial law by the police authorities closing off pit towns in order to prevent lawful demonstrations in favour of the strike – all well verified in print and on film.   
"Overall, the government generally had more support than the miners".
Oh dear, another referendum I missed – when was that one? Considering that the information on the events on the strike were controlled and manipulated by a largely hostile media, it's hardly surprising which way the ballot finally went – or is it a case of 'left-wing' bias and right wing 'information'?; as far I'm concerned 'Not So' Sleepy Rosie has the right of it.
Hands up all those who were asked to take part in the poll – I wasn't!
"The men who threw the concrete and killed the taxi driver were punished"
I missed a bit when I wrote that – it should read "The 'TWO' men...."
Again, are you going to judge the actions of all the miners on the actions of these men – who were punished for their crime?
"As for the "scab driver who crushed the picket to death", what should he have been punished for??"
Maybe nothing, but as the event took place in the presence of police who were directing the vehicles, at the very least there should have been an enquiry into the incident which included the behaviour of the police at the scene – there wasn't – or maybe you can tell us otherwise.
"The picket who died should not have been where the driver could have run over him."
Describes every road accident that ever happened; it also sums up Thatcherism (and gangsterism) perfectly – "do as you're told and you won't get hurt".
"scum masquerading as decent people..... "
There goes that contempt for the British working people again – tsk - tsk, you really should make an effort to hide it. My main difference with Trolleybus here is that he is prepared (quite rightly) to condemn the killing of a taxi driver, but justify that of a picket – I condone neither. Though I do concede that it could be argued that those who threw the block and the scab driver were acting (albeit from different points of view) out of frustration in order to defend their way of life and feed their families, while the police were 'just obeying orders' – pretty much as the SS claimed after the war!
For 'Democratic Mineworkers Union' read 'Maggie's Miners' – most major industrial action produces its counter-action of scabs – wonder what became of them after we lost our mining industry – I seem to remember some sort of financial scandal...... nah, couldn't be!!!!
"Tell us all why British Industry should pay £250/ton for coal when they could get it from elsewhere for £8/ton........."
Totally agree with Jack on the ethical question of buying cheap.
"The choice for British industry was quite stark and simple you either pay £250 per ton for British coal or you pay £8 per ton for Australian coal."
At the time of the miners strike one of the chief suppliers of coal was Poland (as far as I know Poland is still a big supplier) where wages and working conditions were, and by all reports, still are - appalling.
Taken to it's logical conclusion – why have a textile and clothes-manufacturing industry when we could easily buy much more cheaply from the Far East, where they pay shit wages to people living in abject poverty, including children (though, – come to think of it, isn't that what Britain does anyway; go and read the labels in shops like Marks and Sparks)?
"Tell us all why the British Taxpayer had to subsidise British Steel to the tune of millions per day."
Why indeed, when we could purchase steel (as Britain does, along with many other goods) from democratic China where the workers live in luxury and work under idyllic conditions? Who knows, maybe some of the beneficiaries of this 'arrangement' are the Tibetans! The only reason that Britain can purchase more cheaply from these countries is that by and large the workers there are treated like shit and by supporting such behaviour the British Governments become part of it.
And then of course there's the economic wisdom of shutting down your home industries and relying on imports – the results of which we are about to find out with a vengeance via the current recession.
Being an atheist, my one regret is that 'practicing Christian' Margaret Thatcher, who will die shortly (I believe she has requested a state funeral – it seems that Terabyte is not the only one with an over-inflated view of his own importance), like her mass-murderer Chilean friend, will not receive her just reward in heaven for the misery and suffering she caused the vast majority of the people of these islands - pity. I guess I'll have to make do with the beautiful memory of her leaving Downing Street in tears (like a spoilt child after having her favourite toy confiscated), when she was given the bums rush by her fellow turds.
"Who was it characterised Socialism as "The politics of envy"?"
Probably not the same person who characterised Capitalism as "greed made respectable" though even some of its more humane supporters were happy to talk about the unacceptable face of capitalism – not Maggie, I hasten to add.
Interesting to see (from ard mhacha's joke) that Carol was only keeping up the family tradition of racism.
"This lady made a private remark...."
Then it's ok to be a racist in private, even when you hold a position in the media.....?
" Sadly today we all have to tip toe around everyone and almost every subject."
How about tip-toeing around the finer feelings of Lawrence's family – remember their son Stephen – he was murdered by racist thugs because he was black, and the police made sure the killers evaded punishment by carrying out an extremely inept and biased (racist) investigation. Their first action was to arrest Lawrence's (black) companion – well done the boys in blue!
Pause for breath – have much more to say on personal experience of police 'neutrality' – but duty calls
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM

Good competition requires rules and a referee.

Otherwise it would be acceptable for the new zealand all blacks to play the eton 4th form at a game of no holds barred rugby.

But clearly that doesn't really constitute competition, just as Lions vs Christians didn't really constitute competition.

The free market requires open healthy competition.

This is not possible without fairness.

Who wants to watch a boxing match between a malnourished coffee worker and a fit healthy 30 something millionaire with access to a gym, a coach and the best possible diet.

Competition needs to be fair or it implodes. It cannot function without rules.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:29 AM

"Sugarfoot Jack/Strindsinger/ Frank Hamiltom or whoever"

Pardon? It's me Tezza, stigWeard, just changed my name me old mucker.

Where are you getting your information on imported coal from? Even the Daily Torygraph, organ of choice for lining the hamster cages of wannabe middle-class middle-management peabrains across the UK doesn't mention Australian coal in a recent article, suggesting most comes from the environmentally destructive process of open-cast mining.

This is going to shock you, but cheapest is not always best. This coal is cheap because whoever mines it doesn't care about the safety of their miners, the environmental damage caused by it's extraction and although you can ignore this because it's happening to foreigners miles away who you never have to look in the face, what goes around comes around and this'll come back and bite you in the arse.

Seeing as the unregulated capitalism you love so much as led us to into this mess I'm surprised you are quite so vociferous in your defence of the system. Like I said - they don't give two shade of shit about you, so why support them?

Margaret Thatcher never gave a shit about the ordinary people of this, or any other country. Including both you and me.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

"By the way, I understood Bryn to be a member of the legal profession – I certainly never knew he was a miner."

Quite right Jim, Bryn Pugh has stated that he is a member of the legal profession, who in a thread on this forum boasted about joining in on the picket lines and preparing said hat pins dipped in shit, it seems with full intent to stick them into police horses or maybe even policemen. As I said previously it smacks of premeditation and as such should be condemned. Bryn Pugh and his pals are the scum masquerading as decent people, they weren't miners, they weren't suffering anything, they went out with the sole intent of causing trouble, equipping themselves to do so in a very mean and vicious manner. Maybe the pair of you can come up with a song about it.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 12:21 PM

Jack, politicians irrespective of party once elected have never given a hoot about "ordinary" people, or has that fact escaped your notice, certainly hasn't escaped mine.

Oh and this mess we are currently in, well we've been here before and the same system gets us out of the mess, unlike the systems employed to fuel the economies of the former Soviet Block. "Our" system can take an occasional hammering and survive, as it will this time exactly as it has done before.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Torybus - is that it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:07 PM

Jim, what would one expect from a pig but an oink?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:20 PM

Thank you Mick - hope all is well with you.

Terminus:
Anybody who has ever been involved in an event which involves mass policing, even something as innocuous as the Aldermaston Marches, an Anti-Apartheid demonstration, or even The Notting Hill Carnival, can hardly have failed to have noticed the behaviour of the police – at best, distant and somewhat unfriendly, but quite often openly hostile.
I used to wonder why this was until I became friendly with a young policeman who used to turn up to The Singers Club occasionally. He had joined the force in the North East of England and had regarded the job as a public service – a village bobby – but had moved to London to further his career.
He said how, during training was taught to treat any non-conformist with suspicion, as a potential troublemaker. He explained that any white person mixing with blacks should be regarded as a druggie – either a taker or dealer – or both.   It was no great surprise to us when we read that quite a few London Police had been requested (not ordered, not disciplined and certainly not dismissed) to cease their membership of the then very active National Front.
Gerry was stationed around the Kings Cross area, and one night, after a few drinks he told us he was extremely disturbed by the behaviour of some of his colleagues during 'slack periods'. To ease the boredom he described how they would hang around the local Rowton House after closing time (Sunday nights were favourite) and pick up daft-drunk down-and-outs going back to their beds for the night, take them to the station and charge them with being drunk and disorderly. There, they would strip-search them, sober them up with a bucket of cold water and the mouthier ones would be given 'a slapping', not enough to do any real damage, but enough to humiliate and frighten them 'for a laugh'. When he complained he was told by a friendly desk sergeant that whistleblowers were quite likely to be given 'the treatment' which apparently involved having excrement spread on your sandwich while your attention was distracted. Persistent whistle-blowing could lead to your having your vehicle 'adjusted'.   
Gerry lasted about 8 months in The Smoke before he packed it in and became a social worker, thereby earning the contempt of our rightist friend and his storm-troopers, as a "do-gooder" no doubt!
My first close-up experience was over the seven years I worked as a pub maintenance electrician for a major brewery. The first thing I was shown by my employer was the list of pubs which were difficult to work in because they didn't close at the official times because, thanks to 'financial negotiations', the police took no notice of the 'irregular hours'. This included the nearest pub to the office where off duty police would gather to watch confiscated pornographic videos.
Watch this space.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:21 PM

"Witty" remarks are not good enough, Teribus's remarks require to be answered.
Personally, I think that the Capitalist ststem has simply become unsustainable, regardless of whether a Consevative or Socialist govt are in power.

The point surely is, what are you "wits" going to put in its place?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:35 PM

Sorry, ake, but his remarks have been answered and he chooses not to respond with anything other than his rightist twaddle, as opposed to answering points made. He continues along on his own twisted constructs. I don't believe that his points haven't been addressed.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM

I went on a demo back in 1993 when I was a young idealistic student (as opposed to my current status as an old cynical student).

A designiated Site of Special Scientific Interest was to be bulldozed to make way for a road and some friends and I decided we were going to do our bit to stop it.

There were 11 of us on a coach which had been converted into a mobile home and which was in fact the home of the driver.

When we arrived at our destination, the demonstration which we thought we would find simply hadn't turned up.

A solitary member of friends of the earth was stood in a siding by the road, with his banner, looking quite dejected that his publicity efforts had gone so unrewarded - that is until we turned up.

Not knowing what to do, the driver of the coach, a narcissistic publicity hound who was in his 30's (the rest of us were around 19 and 20) decided to drive into a neighbouring field to set up camp.

Soon enough, the farmer who owned the field notified the police, who arrived in numerous meat wagons and cordoned off the gate.

Tresspass being a civil offfence, they couldn't come onto the field to arrest us and couldn't evict us without an eviction order, so it was that we sat on our bus in the middle of a field drinking tea while a crowd of coppers stood at the gate of the field not really knowing what to do next.

The driver at this point decided that he was going to go over to the police to "negotiate". The rest of us, uninsured to drive the bus, sat in bemusement as he rode over to the gate on his bike and was promptly arrested and thrown in the back of one of the meatwagons by the inspector in charge of operations.

And so the farce carried on ... the inspector got the permission of the farmer to come onto the field, but was not entitled to come onto the bus without our permission and besides, while the driver had been arrested for criminal damage after driving through the fence to get onto the field, as passengers, there were no grounds to arrest us so an absurd stalemate ensued, in which a preposterous red faced inspector shouted empty threats at us and got more and more angry out in the cold while we drank tea and smoked handrolled "cigarettes" and marvelled at the scene unfolding in front of us.

We had no driver so we couldn't go anywhere even if we had wanted to or been capable of doing anything about it.

Anyway, finally the inspector was relieved by the area superintendant who knocked on the door and asked if it would be ok to come on board to have a chat and a cuppa.

We agreed and he came in and sat down at the table. We made him a cuppa and started to chat. He apologized for arresting the driver and we apologized for his behaviour. He agreed to let the driver go without charge if we'd agree to drive off the field and keep him on a shorter leash.

This was fine by us and when the driver was brought back to us we stuck to our side of the bargain and the super stuck to his - having taken stock of the situation and seen that on the one hand we were totally harrmless and on the other that he needed us to cooperate with each other if he wanted to find an effective solution to his problem.

That is my funny story and not entirely helpful in the context of the discussions going on here, however something did come out of it which is directly relevant to some of the points being discussed.

While the super was on the bus, we talked about numerous things in a pretty open and honest way, and one of the issues we spoke about was that of police brutality. It was with great regret that he spoke, at some length, about his concerns that there were officers who joined the police because they enjoyed a good ruck and liked to give 'it' to the troublemakers.

He was concerned that such officers join up with the intention of getting into the riot squads and that they are ignored by their superiors as they indulge their taste for violence. He spoke on a personal level about his distaste at the 'strategies' employed at the beanfield and at twyford down where Group 4 security were ignored by the police as they beat up the protesters there regardless of the presence of kids.

I have a friend who has spoken about his experience at the beanfield which involved lying in a ball on the ground trying to cover his head without leaving his crotch exposed as he was being belted with truncheons at both ends before they took him off to a remote police station and kicked him out in the early evening in the middle of nowhere with nothing in his pockets and no way of getting anywhere except by walking and with nowhere to stay or money to pay for food or accomodation.

Just thought all that might help with the whole police professionalism thing.

Oh - and to round off the story,

We kept our driver on a leash and he kept his inspector on a leash and we all lived happily ever after.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 05:35 AM

Thanks Lox; reminiscent of a number of incidents we witnessed with the Travellers in London. Your description of the 'sensible' policeman is borne out by what we were told - "The older ones were ok, firm but fair - it was the young ones that caused the trouble".
Before the 1968 Caravan and Camping Act was repealed (by the Tories) it was the law that Travellers camping illegally had to be given 14 days notice, so the practice was to move on to a piece of waste ground, wait for the notice to be served, serve out the notice and move on - ad-infinitum.
Our friends were camped at Shepherds, Bush, under the flyover on an L-shaped piece of ground. The police and bailiffs turned up to evict them and duly ticked each one off as they left the site, not noticing that they were driving round the block and re-entering the site out of sight on the hidden leg of the L - thus gaining another 14 days legal camping. Unbelievably, after that time was up the process was repeated in exactly the same manner so the Travellers got 40-odd days stopping in all - not the brightest buttons in the sewing box.
In the seventies one of the Traveller organisations began a campaign to draw the attention to the shortage of sites; by law, each borough had to provide 1 site for (I think) 14 caravans - most didn't.
The organisation would select a very prominent site and move a family caravan onto it. This was usually a public park, garden or playing field - the idea being to create the maximum publicity, get into the local press or radio. The 'protest' usually lasted no longer than a few hours and the Travellers would move off voluntarily once the point was made.
One of our singers, Little Bill Cassidy, was chosen and put on a public park in one of the posher parts of London, Harrow-on-the-Hill.
The residents, of course, complained to the police, who panicked and pulled an enormous rubbish container across the entrance to the park, making it impossible for any more Travellers to get on, but also for Little Bill and his family to get off.
Because of an administration cock-up, much to the annoyance to the residents and the Travellers, the skip remained in position for over a week.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:34 AM

Thanks for the post, Lox, and for your post, Jim, with its cogent argument.

Now I know, Lox, why the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, to deal with 'New Age' Travellers, was enacted.

(Not that I think your little demo had anything directly to do with it, mind :-) )

'Twas ever thus. See a problem, get an Act of Parliament to sort it.

Simple.

Eh, Pterodactyl ?

Seems to me that for Syllabus and his ilk, there is only one commandment

THOU SHALT NOT !

(with apologies to that great left wing playwright Dylan Thomas).

I became a Lawyer because I reasoned that the only way to alter a system is to be inside it. Jaysus bless my innocence. I had as much chance of altering a fundamentally flawed system as I have of my arsehole healing up. Today I am the in-house Lawyer for a not-for-profit outfit.

The likes of Carol Thatcher, Trolleybus and their ilk can be likened to the Hydra. Cut one head off and two grow in its place. As one grows older, there are only so many times one can thole a hammering

off the guardians of law and order. Heigh ho - 'twas ever thus.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:08 AM

"Personally, I think that the Capitalist ststem has simply become unsustainable, regardless of whether a Consevative or Socialist govt are in power.

The point surely is, what are you "wits" going to put in its place?"


Given the fact the banks have taken a whole wodge of taxpayers money and done sod all except withdraw help for small businesses (120 a day closing) and still pay themselves nice healthy bonuses it strikes me as bloody obvious: regulation of the capitalist system. People cannot be trusted to play fair and act responsibly in business, and it seems the richer they are the less interest in any social responsibility they have.

Seeing as right-wingers are constantly bleating on about how we have to hammer home the responsibilities to society of the drunken, boorish underclass with their 13 year-old mothers and sponging 'jobseekers' it's high time those no less boorish louts at the other end of the income ladder got a sharp rap around the ear and were made to start acting with some integrity. Unfortunately, Thatcherites don't view integrity and morality as desirable personality traits and so the New Labour suits still have their lips firmly puckered onto the arses of the industry grandees they claim to be sorting out.

Tezza's assertion "well we've been here before and the same system gets us out of the mess . . . exactly as it has done before." only goes to prove the point - the system is fucked without regulation. Boom and bust is not a great system, and the fallacy of Thatcher's 'trickle 'down' effect has been proved with the emergence of an underclass of people who feel utterly detached from the rest of society and 30 years on from her instigating policies that saw perfectly profitable companies go to the wall as their cashflow dried up, we're watching it all happen again.

The real problem is all the main political parties all adhere to some sort of Thatcherite economic policy, so ingrained in the culture has it become. Even the Lib Dems are now broadly Thatcherite in this approach (with the possible exception of Vince Cable, the lone voice of sanity amongst the babble of confused, bullshitting politicians) and this means there is no real viable alternative and I personally believe the return to state intervention in the running of the banks is more of a short-term fudge than a genuine attempt to regulate the activities of the banks; is there any evidence of ministers actually imposing their will on the fat cats of the banking boardrooms? I can't see any, just Darling on the TV spewing his usual trite claptrap whilst Brown whinges that it's really not his fault, as he hangs onto the apron strings of the bankers.

Without state intervention the capitalist system cannot regulate itself and curb it's worst excesses. Without a government committed to imposing social responsibility upon the capitalist system this is going to happen again and again (not a good thing Tezza, especially for those at the bottom of the pile - especially in a global marketplace), and the gap between rich and poor will keep growing.

The only way capitalism will ever work is within a socialist framework, and at the moment there are no politicians who can offer that as an alternative.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM

Jim Carroll:
It was no great surprise to us when we read that quite a few London Police had been requested (not ordered, not disciplined and certainly not dismissed) to cease their membership of the then very active National Front.
You don't say whether you believe the police should have been ordered to dissociate themselves from the National Front, or if you are complaining about the infringement of their right to belong to any political party of their choosing.
I assume it's the former and you would deny them the very rights of self-expression which you claim they clamp down on for others!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM

"his remarks have been answered and he chooses not to respond with anything other than his rightist twaddle, as opposed to answering points made. He continues along on his own twisted constructs. I don't believe that his points haven't been addressed." - Big Mick

Now as far as me not answering points put to me goes Big Mick let's take a run through them:

•        "Don't know why I'm surprised to find the pretentiously and self-importantly pseudonymed Terribus (is 'War Cry' still published by The Salvation Army?) with his ultra-right proboscis still firmly jammed up the rear end of the establishment!"

As this is purely a personal attack in which Jim Carroll cannot even get my name right I think it can be ignored.

I had asked Jim Carroll the following question - "Well then Jim-Lad still want to tell me about law-abiding "miners". His reply:
•        "I knew Bryn as a fine singer many years ago; I do not agree with his attitude here, nor do I believe it to be either helpful or representative of the striking miners actions – do you? By the way, I understood Bryn to be a member of the legal profession – I certainly never knew he was a miner."

This point I believe I answered, while the majority of striking miners did protest peacefully and legally, certain sections did not and it was their actions that the police reacted to – Note that word reacted. Also in the "picket" lines were supporters of the militant left, they were not miners, they had nothing whatsoever to do with the dispute, the sole purpose of their presence was to instigate and provoke trouble – they are the ones I referred to as being "scum masquerading as decent people".

With regard to Bryn Pugh, the information I post in this thread is paraphrased from what the man himself has written in threads on this forum, so he can have no objection to it being repeated here.

•        "Interesting to see that the actions of the miners are all being compared to 9-11, and Irish terrorist activities; (surely you could have fitted the somewhat incontinent Israeli army in there somewhere) – do you really have as low an opinion of British workers as that?"

Here is Jim Carroll once again trying to put words into my mouth – old trick Jim tried by many on this forum, it hasn't worked in the past and it won't work now. Address yourself to what I actually say, don't expect me to respond to things that I have not said. I would also advise you to go back and read the particular post you incorrectly gleaned that "comparison" from, you will find after actually reading it that I was responding to a point made by Big Mick about the "the means justifying the ends", and the hypocritical way it is applied by the Left.

I made the following comment - "Taking a look at the instances of violence on the picket lines it was the norm that it started with objects (stones, bricks, etc) being thrown at the police." To which Jim Carroll jumps in with:

•        "Yes, I see you do have such a low opinion – utter bollocks – the vast majority of pickets were peaceful ones, the handful of violent ones got the publicity – prove your statement."

I begin to doubt whether Jim can actually read, or whether he just reacts and goes off at half-cock. Judge for yourself Big Mick:
- Where in what I said do I state that the vast majority of picket situations were violent? – truth is I didn't.

- Where in what I posted do I state that I have a low opinion of British Workers? – truth is I don't voice anything remotely like an opinion on British Workers.

To my observation that - "The miners and their "supporters" broke the law". I received in response:

•        "As distinct from the Thatcher Government who manipulated the law and used the police force as a private army in order to break the strike,."

And you have the gall to complain about right-wing twaddle. A number points unpalatable as they well may be:

- The "Thatcher Government" was the elected government of the United Kingdom.

- Manipulated the law? Guest Lox stated that every game must have rules. In this case the rule of Law. If you or anybody else is going to state that actions taken by the government of the day, or by the police force were illegal, I would suggest you come up with some proof to back your statements up, please forgive me if I am not inclined just to take your word for it. Oh and the following is perfectly correct - "the police acted in accordance with their duty to uphold the laws of the land".

- explain to us all what rules relate to legal industrial action in the UK Jim. What you can and what you cannot do, then tell us how many times those boundaries were trampled during the miners strike.

•        the provocation of miners on strike pay by the police by waving money at them;

If true this would provoke the miners how?? How could this harm them?? The miners or their "supporters" however could always retaliate by sticking hat pins dipped in shit into the police officers who so aggressively wave cash at them couldn't they Big Mick. The only miners who got strike pay were those who actually turned up on the picket lines – true??

•        the Orgreave mounted baton charges (still have the press cutting of the woman about to have her head split in two by a mounted guardian of the law);

Glad you mentioned Orgreave:
"Initially the strike played out like most others, and the strikers played football for a while. But as more numbers arrived on both sides, tensions began to rise. There was some stone-throwing from the miners' side which persuaded the commander of the police presence, Assistant Chief Constable Anthony Clement, to deploy a cordon of long-shielded police in front of his standard officers - a fairly standard practice in such encounters. The first casualty was PC Akers, who was hit in the face by a brick at about 8am, and taken to hospital."

The press cutting you so cherish, the photographer must have been exceptionally lucky to get it: "The NUM was represented by 5,000 to 6,000 pickets from across the UK. The police deployed between 4,000 and 8,000 officers, and were deployed from 10 counties. Of these, a small number had been trained in new riot tactics following the Toxteth and Brixton riots, while most had little or no experience in dealing with such events. There were between 40 and 50 mounted police and 58 police dogs. There were no women officers and only a handful of female picketers."

But then that's the trouble with still photography, you don't get what happened immediately before of after the shutter operates.

Rather odd that at the end of the day in this modern day "Peterloo Massacre" you had 93 arrests, 51 miners injured and 72 policemen injured. Tell me Jim is it legal to construct barricades across roads in the UK. Is it legal to break into business premises and steal material to construct your barricade? Who was the first person injured that day Jim??

•        "and then there was a (leftie, no doubt) BBC documentary on the events);"

No doubt leftie BBC coverage – Google up BBC biased reporting and take a look at the number of inquiries and investigations that have been conducted into our "national" broadcasting corporation that is supposed to provide balanced and impartial reporting of events throughout Britain and around the world – take note of how many of those investigations have resulted in findings of the BBC showing a clear left-wing bias in its reporting.

•        "the near declaration of martial law by the police authorities closing off pit towns in order to prevent lawful demonstrations in favour of the strike – all well verified in print and on film."

Is there such a thing as a "near declaration of martial law"?? I don't think so – You either have a state of martial law or you don't and that has to be declared by the Government of the day and they most certainly did not do that – If you doubt that consult Hansard.

To the statement - "Overall, the government generally had more support than the miners". I got:

•        Oh dear, another referendum I missed – when was that one? Considering that the information on the events on the strike were controlled and manipulated by a largely hostile media, it's hardly surprising which way the ballot finally went – or is it a case of 'left-wing' bias and right wing 'information'?; as far I'm concerned 'Not So' Sleepy Rosie has the right of it.
Hands up all those who were asked to take part in the poll – I wasn't!"

I quoted results of a number of Gallup Polls taken throughout the course of the strike and I clearly stated that it was a Poll so where does Jim's "referendum" come from – Go back and check Big Mick. This is just another example of Jim Carroll putting words into my mouth then taking me to task for it. The clown even trips himself up in the last sentence quoted above when he does get it right and asks who were asked to take part in the poll.

"The men who threw the concrete and killed the taxi driver were punished"
•        I missed a bit when I wrote that – it should read "The 'TWO' men...."
Again, are you going to judge the actions of all the miners on the actions of these men – who were punished for their crime?

As far as I am aware I have not condemned all miners on the actions of these men. IIRC Captain Birdseye posted about remembering miners killed by policemen – There were none by the way. I posted to mention those killed by miners deserved to be remembered too.

•        "As for the "scab driver who crushed the picket to death", what should he have been punished for??"
Maybe nothing, but as the event took place in the presence of police who were directing the vehicles, at the very least there should have been an enquiry into the incident which included the behaviour of the police at the scene – there wasn't – or maybe you can tell us otherwise."

It is standard procedure for any RTA involving a fatality that a full investigation is carried out into the nature and circumstances of the death, such an investigation was carried out into the death of Joe Green at Ferrybridge Power Station on 15th June 1984, Joe Green was buried seven days later on 22nd June, 1984.

It is standard procedure for any fatal accident at the workplace to be fully investigated by the Health & Safety Executive and by the police.

It is law in England and Wales that any unnatural death is subject to a Coroner's Inquest into the circumstances and nature of that death.

While those present picketing the Power Station at Ferrybridge on the 15th June 1984 could demonstrate peacefully, they could not obstruct the road and they could not infringe the human rights of those lawfully going about their business, in this case drivers delivering fuel to the Power Station.

•        "The picket who died should not have been where the driver could have run over him."
Describes every road accident that ever happened; it also sums up Thatcherism (and gangsterism) perfectly – "do as you're told and you won't get hurt".

Rather over-dramatic comparisons there don't you think? Mind you it would appear that if you have to be restrained from getting in the way of a 32 tonne truck fully laden then the "do as you're told and you won't get hurt" advice would appear to be warranted.

•        "scum masquerading as decent people..... "
There goes that contempt for the British working people again – tsk - tsk, you really should make an effort to hide it."

Let's be quite clear on this. That remark, "scum masquerading as decent people.." was aimed at and applies to those such as Bryn Pugh who prior to setting out to lend his "support" on a picket line, took a hat pin dipped it in excrement and carried it with him to the picket line/demonstration where the intended use of the hat pin was to stick it into a police officer or his horse. Here again we have another example of Jim Carroll putting words into my mouth and attributing to me opinions that I have most certainly not stated.

•        My main difference with Trolleybus here is that he is prepared (quite rightly) to condemn the killing of a taxi driver, but justify that of a picket – I condone neither. Though I do concede that it could be argued that those who threw the block and the scab driver were acting (albeit from different points of view) out of frustration in order to defend their way of life and feed their families, while the police were 'just obeying orders' – pretty much as the SS claimed after the war!

Ah another funny version of my Mudcat name, Jim-lad, you taking counselling for that?? Oh by the bye where do I "justify" the death of Joe Green?? Maybe you can point that out to me Big Mick? I do not believe that I have done so. Rightly, in the case of the TWO miners who killed the taxi driver, they were charged and jailed for manslaughter, as a result of a coroners inquest into the death of Mr. Wilkie where it was established that he had been killed unlawfully by person or persons unknown. The subsequent police investigation resulted in the arrest of the TWO men. In the case of Joe Green his death was found on investigation to have been accidental, therefore there were no charges to answer and no-one was arrested or convicted.

The TWO men Jim-lad went out to deliberately cause injury, they did not set out from their homes that morning with peaceful intent. The driver of the truck delivering fuel to Ferrybridge Power Station on the 15th June, 1984 was going about his lawful business, he had no intent whatsoever to cause harm to anyone or anything. If you are unable to differentiate between the two, then you have no business questioning anyone's "moral compass". The police presence at the Power Station in Ferrybridge that day was to control the picket and ensure that the rights of people to pursue their lawful employment without threat or intimidation were protected. Your attempt to present both cases as being similar is ludicrous.

•        For 'Democratic Mineworkers Union' read 'Maggie's Miners' – most major industrial action produces its counter-action of scabs – wonder what became of them after we lost our mining industry – I seem to remember some sort of financial scandal...... nah, couldn't be!!!!

The Democratic Union of Mineworkers came into being Jim-Lad because Arthur Scargill refused point blank to hold a national ballot of mineworkers on support for strike action. His reason for not putting it to the members of the Union was because he knew damn well that they wouldn't have gone for it.

•        "Tell us all why British Industry should pay £250/ton for coal when they could get it from elsewhere for £8/ton........."
Totally agree with Jack on the ethical question of buying cheap.

There may well be ethical questions involved in placing contracts for supply of raw materials, but to take it to the extent of paying 30 times what you have to smacks of lunatic irresponsibility.

•        "The choice for British industry was quite stark and simple you either pay £250 per ton for British coal or you pay £8 per ton for Australian coal."
At the time of the miners strike one of the chief suppliers of coal was Poland (as far as I know Poland is still a big supplier) where wages and working conditions were, and by all reports, still are - appalling.

Let's see Jim-lad, the period of the strike was 1984-1985 correct?? I would agree that during that period conditions in Poland were appalling, due mainly to their Soviet backed Communist Government and during the specific period mentioned wasn't Poland under martial law?? Now how could that possibly happen in "the workers paradise"??

•        "Tell us all why the British Taxpayer had to subsidise British Steel to the tune of millions per day."
Why indeed, when we could purchase steel (as Britain does, along with many other goods) from democratic China where the workers live in luxury and work under idyllic conditions?"

What you mean that the people who live and work in the "Democratic People's Republic of China" are not living in "the worker's paradise"?? But I am gratified that here again you condemn the Communist system of government and its ruthless exploitation of their own people.

•        "Who knows, maybe some of the beneficiaries of this 'arrangement' are the Tibetans! The only reason that Britain can purchase more cheaply from these countries is that by and large the workers there are treated like shit and by supporting such behaviour the British Governments become part of it."

And what would all those Chinese workers do if the rest of the world did not buy from them?? I would also venture to point out the obvious that Britain is not the only country to trade with "the workers paradise", nor can it influence in any real terms what happens within China – that will have to be done by the people of China if, as and when they get the opportunity to do so – don't hold your breath, as the "communist elite" who rule China do not intend letting go the reins of power any time in the near future.

•        "And then of course there's the economic wisdom of shutting down your home industries and relying on imports – the results of which we are about to find out with a vengeance via the current recession."

So it's economic wisdom to run home industries at a thundering great loss, in order that the workers can produce stuff that nobody wants at prices nobody can afford. Jobs for life eh Jim-lad? Psst Jim, the UK has always relied on imports, and the world owes nobody a living, nothing new there.

•        "Being an atheist, my one regret is that 'practicing Christian' Margaret Thatcher, who will die shortly (I believe she has requested a state funeral – it seems that Terabyte is not the only one with an over-inflated view of his own importance), like her mass-murderer Chilean friend, will not receive her just reward in heaven for the misery and suffering she caused the vast majority of the people of these islands - pity. I guess I'll have to make do with the beautiful memory of her leaving Downing Street in tears (like a spoilt child after having her favourite toy confiscated), when she was given the bums rush by her fellow turds."

Good heavens another irrelevant left-wing rant coupled up with another personal attack, keep it up Jim-lad, its good for a laugh, but it could be said that you're in danger of becoming a bitter man. By the bye the "misery and suffering" she caused the "majority of the people of these islands" – Left-Wing Myth. Shall we compare unemployment figures from 1979 to 1991 to what had gone on in the years before?? How about inflation?? Tell us again Jim how often did Maggie have to go to the IMF for a bail-out loan for the UK??

The rest of your post meaningless, emotive left-wing crap.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

"No doubt leftie BBC coverage . . ."

That got a belly laugh here at the SFJ Worker's Co-Operative. I can't believe you're trotting out this tired old clichι Tezza; It's as old as Thatcher's syrup and about as dusty and flea-ridden too.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM

Carry on, Teribus - set it to music and you might have a new rock opera.

If taking my name in vain gives you a buzz, please carry on.

If you think it annoys me, be assured it doesn't. I take as much heed of you as I do of a puppy's bark, or an ass's fart (spot the difference ?)

With any luck, you'll ger RSI or wanker's cramp.

Ever thought of doing a Ph. D. ? You've written enough for one.

"...scum masquerading as decent people . . . " - a high compliment

from pond life, n'est-ce pas ?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM

Another personal attack Bryn?? How unexpected.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:11 PM

"I assume it's the former and you would deny them the very rights of self-expression which you claim they clamp down on for others!"
I find it interesting that you find belonging to a fascist organisation a legitimate way to express yourself Nigel - is this a statement of your own position by any chance?
"Another personal attack Bryn?"
Please don't whinge Terrapin; it's undignified, especially since I've already had occasion to take you to task for your bad manners - that would be the time when you were defending racism - remember?
Jim Carroll (aka Jim the Brit)


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM

Whinge James old boy, not in the slightest, "sticks and stones" chum, but between the pair of you your beginning to sound as stupid as Bobert, apart from the fact that Bobert is by far the better musician and performer.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:45 AM

"pond life" Bryn Pugh?? Don't know about that, but there again, I wasn't the one sitting at home dipping hat pins in shit before going out with them carried as concealed weapons with the intention of sticking them into complete and utter strangers was I??

And now you're a lawyer - probably one with that sterling ability to walk upright under an earthworm wearin' a "lum" hat.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:57 AM

Terrytoon,
"As this is purely a personal attack in which Jim Carroll cannot even get my name right I think it can be ignored."
You are probably the most childishly abusive self-abuser it has ever been my experience to debate with - and it is typical of the breed that they whinge and complain when others take their cue from your abuse.
I am more than happy to respond to your cut-and-paste points, but as I will be away for a few days so I will have to forgo that pleasure for the time being.
In the meantime:
"What you mean that the people who live and work in the "Democratic People's Republic of China" are not living in "the worker's paradise"
I have never discussed my political affiliations with you so cannot possible even guess what they are, any more than I could guess whether your own politics come from the old N.F. line, the B.N.P. 'new image', or the European LePen stable.
It is obvious that my politics are of the left, just it is obvious that yours are of the ultra-right, but that's as much as either of us know, and to presume any more is typical of your arrogance.
"And what would all those Chinese workers do if the rest of the world did not buy from them?"
I do find it interesting that you trot out the old rightist excuse for trading with oppressive regimes though!
I look forward to resuming our little tete-a-tete when I return; I am an avid follower of Lady T's "oxygen of publicity" line of thought
So far we have seen you support the massacre of civilians in Gaza by the Incontinent Army of Israel, smear and misrepresent the Irish, excuse racism and shit on the miners - let it all hang out, I say!!
Speaking of which, I received no response from Nigel P.... I'll take that as a 'yes' then?
Jim (Lad, or is it The Brit) Carroll


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:27 AM

Oh dear, Terrytowelling-

Personal attacks, eh ? Ah, diddums . . .

As I remember, you laid the ground rules :

" . . . scum masquerading as decent people . . . "

So don't spit your dummy out, and throw Teddy out of your cot, when I play by your rules, sunshine.

As I posted earlier - get back under your bridge, before I get Great Big Billy Goat Gruff to see to you.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM

Eh no Jimbo it was your pal Blind-shitter-Pugh needed the shit to smear on his hat pins.

I mean what sort of nasty warped individual would even think of doing that? Hey Pugh what did you do for encores, mug pensioners?? Tip people out of wheelchairs?? Substitute guide-dogs?? Oh that's right, I remember now - you became a lawyer.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:52 AM


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 04:53 AM

Oops! That'll teach me to lurk.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:00 AM

Teratogen -

Blind Pugh was my father.

I'm slightly short-sighted Pugh.

You might need a Lawyer, some day - when "they" section you.

By the tone of your most recent posts, I don't think it'll be too long, now . . . .


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:46 AM

You are probably the most childishly abusive self-abuser it has ever been my experience to debate with - and it is typical of the breed that they whinge and complain when others take their cue from your abuse."

Would that you had even attempted to debate – which you did not – it would have been an improvement on having to read your ill-informed twaddle. "Whinging" Jimmy, not my style, I merely made note of your lack of reasoned argument and the resort to "ad hominem" attacks, just like your "shitty-hat-pin wielding" pal and erstwhile singing partner Bryn-the-legal-Pugh.

Yes it is rather obvious that your politics are of the left, more than amply illustrated by the rubbish you spout. As to my political affiliations James, you are correct you cannot even guess at what they are. You guess at "ultra-right" – you guess wrong by a long shot. Yours is the sort of "socialism" that most children outgrow by the age of 15, certainly for a man of your years one would have hoped that somewhere along life's journey you might have picked up a modicum of "common-sense".

Hey were you "politically" active like your pal Pugh?? All fired up with socialist outrage and indignation?? Perhaps a member of a political party that had vowed to change the world?? Standing there shoulder to shoulder with your "brothers", shittin' up the hat pins for the next big demo??

As for myself Jimbo – I've never been interested in, or been a member of any political party in my life. I am possibly the most a-political person you've ever come across, I think in sixty odd years I've voted twice in my life.

Why do I appear to champion the "right" on this forum – mainly because of the seemingly never ending stream of lies, half-truths, mis-representations and myths the socialists and chattering-left trot out to make their points in threads on this forum – no other reason.

"So far we have seen you support the massacre of civilians in Gaza"

No not in the least, you have seen me support the right of a sovereign state recognized by the United Nations to defend its territorial integrity and the safety of its citizens from attacks launched from outwith its borders.

So far we have seen you - "smear and misrepresent the Irish"

Really?? Can you provide some quote of mine in which I "smear" the Irish?? I would certainly be interested in seeing that

So far we have seen you – "excuse racism"

Where Jim-lad?? Exactly where have I excused racism??

So far we have seen you – "shit on the miners"

Where have I "shit on the miners"?? I know that your pal Bryn did, by supporting them in the manner that he did, I mean with "friends" like that in your corner who the fuck needs enemies.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:03 AM

"I mean what sort of nasty warped individual would even think of doing that"
Who indeed - perhaps someone who would support the slaughter of women and children in the defence of occupied territory, or maybe those who would remove the livelihood and destroy the communities of those who have supplied the nation of heat and energy for generations for dubious economic gains, or those who would advocate trade with repressive regimes - or maybe even those who would propose that we be policed by fascists - it's a funny old world!!
Must go.
Jim Carroll
PS Your posts are now verging on the hysterical - take your pills!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:58 AM

"I mean what sort of nasty warped individual would even think of doing that"
Who indeed – Asks Jim

A rhetorical question of course because Jim Carroll knows precisely what sort of nasty individual carries concealed weapons smeared with excrement in public with the express intent of stabbing perfect strangers – a friend of his, they both admire and respect one another. Apparently by all accounts Jim and Bryn got on, and do still get on extremely well, and shared many a convivial evening of song and politics. When Bryn, the respected and admired, is not out sticking concealed weapons smeared with excrement into perfect strangers, he is apparently a fine singer according to Jim.

Well if Jim's taste in music is anything like his taste in friends that ain't saying very much at all is it. I am pleased that Jim and Bryn are proud to call one another friend, but a word of advice Jim, if you're out with him in a crowd, keep him in front of you – no telling what might get stuck into you if you don't.

One thing's for certain Jumbo if it came to the choice for condemnation and censure between someone who referred to someone's hair style looking similar to a golliwogs, or to someone who carries concealed weapons smeared with excrement in public with the express intent of stabbing perfect strangers. I know whose behavior I like to see corrected as a matter of urgency.

I can imagine that your convivial musical evenings were great, you and Bryn competently backed up by Rose and Alan West, Peter Sutcliffe dropping in now and then, not to forget Myra. All those birds of a feather 'gregariating', whatever the hell that might be – I ask because "gregariate" as a word does not appear to exist in the English language.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:06 AM

Termagant-

Go and lie down in a darkened room with a damp cloth over your eyes.

I'm sure you'll soon feel better.

How long did you spend over the dictionary to find that "gregariate" is a made-up word ?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:26 AM

"Go and lie down in a darkened room with a damp cloth over your eyes.

I'm sure you'll soon feel better." - Bryn Pugh.

I think I'll pass on that Bryn, especially with the likes of you wandering about at liberty - Oh and as for getting sectioned, I say that your behaviour, of which you appear to be so proud, warrants it a damn site more than anything I've ever turned a hand to.

In answer to your question - "How long did you spend over the dictionary to find that "gregariate" is a made-up word ?" - less than 10 seconds.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

Boring, Terylene, boring.

Had your blood pressure checked, recently ?

The choler you display on this and other threads leads me to wonder how far you might be from a stroke ?

Not that I wish you any harm, you understand ; I can always stoop to pick up rubbish.

Over and out.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:45 AM

Blood pressure "Hat-Pin"? Had it checked today at 13:50 actually - Guess what?? Normal, no cause for concern whatsoever.

I take it that as a lawyer you'd really have to steer clear of anything to do with "war crimes" wouldn't you. Unless of course you were prepared to make yourself out to be the one hell of a hypocrite, considering that your weapon of choice was decreed as being against the rules of war as far back as medieval times.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:15 PM

Jim Carroll:
Speaking of which, I received no response from Nigel P.... I'll take that as a 'yes' then?
You were perhaps expecting aresponse to:
I find it interesting that you find belonging to a fascist organisation a legitimate way to express yourself Nigel - is this a statement of your own position by any chance?
I didn't really see the need to respond to so blatent a misquote.
What I originally said was:
You don't say whether you believe the police should have been ordered to dissociate themselves from the National Front, or if you are complaining about the infringement of their right to belong to any political party of their choosing.
I assume it's the former and you would deny them the very rights of self-expression which you claim they clamp down on for others!

You still fail to say whether it is your belief that the police should not be permited allegience to any political party, or whether you are singling one out.
And no, I do not subscribe to the views of the National Front, nor of the BNP. But I made no claim either way.
If you must quote me, then please do so accurately, and do not presume that lack of a response means that I agree with you. From your one-sided rantings so far that seems highly unlikely!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM

Aye I'm afraid it's game set and match to Teribus.
Your stupid over reaction to the "golliwog" remarks has left you open to charges of hypocrisy...the curse of the "soft left"

I really think you have all taken leave of your senses, the old mantra's of the left are useless, that doesn't mean that right wing Capitalism is the future....but people need to know that they can have a life of freedom and happiness before they will be willing to change anything; and that does not mean a lifetime of toil for the "common good"...or the spectre of a benefit ridden society sapping the guts and spirit from everyone....Ake


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:07 PM

"...but people need to know that they can have a life of freedom and happiness before they will be willing to change anything; and that does not mean a lifetime of toil for the "common good"...or the spectre of a benefit ridden society sapping the guts and spirit from everyone....Ake"

That is one of the most truthful and most common-sense things I have read for a long time - Well said Akenaton.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:03 AM

Well, well - who'd have thought it ?

Termite and akinbum gregariating ?

Well, there's a surprise.

What does the adage say ? : misery loves company.

Beyond reasonable doubt, as a Lawyer might say.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:47 AM

Ahh you're struggling now "Hat Pin"

You had little enough to say before that made any sense, and it just seems to have got less and less.

What's up nobody telling you what the party-line is supposed to be.

Give us all the heads up when next you feel inclined to pop into the Milliners.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

What ?


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM

Hmm, two bald men fighting over a comb.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 01:26 AM

Oh Gervase were that the case it would look very bad for yer man, "hat-pin" Pugh, were he to be lifted. After all what possible reason could a bald man offer for carrying a concealed, shit smeared hat-pin on his person??


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:16 AM

Oh no!...what have I done!....Supported my political "enemy", because he happens to be right in his assesment of a left wing cabal steeped in nineteenth century political dogma, mixed in with a "liberal" dose of twenty first century politically correct lunacy!

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.....especially Jim, who I believe has had the advantage of looking at our political system from the extreme left....To see him now puddling about after golliwogs and big simple girls is a sad sight indeed.

The left has never been good at facing reality, this doesn't make it wrong, just cowardly and hypocritical. We should abandon our failed battle lines, admit where we have gone wrong, get out of the fuckin' trenches and start looking for a new way(or maybe a very old way)to make humanity happy free and fulfilled.

The miners are a very good example, and I admire Scargill for his spirit, but looking back further than the economic issues involved, did we really want to condemn further generations to an industry which was dirty, depersonalising and which would in the end kill those who worked in it.

The fact that most miners hated the life and most tried to ensure that their children did not follow them down the pit, is conveniently forgotten by the lefties who care more for dogma than real life.

I know Mrs Thatchers motives were unlikely to be influenced by the welfare of the miners and more by the survival of her govt, but that should not blind us to the whole truth of the issue.
Basically I think that's what Teribus is saying in most of his posts.

Dare I say that he is using a hatpin to burst a balloon?....Ake


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:25 AM

Further to that, We must make a start on wiping the greatest evil of our time.....Capitalism....."right off the map", and not replacing it with a system just as capable of enslaving humanity!

"Small is beautiful"


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:55 AM

one of my heroes was John McLean


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:04 AM

Mine too Tom.....but the political landscape has changed, we have the benefit of hindsight.

I loved Mclean for his bravery in his stand against the oppression of the poor at considerable personal risk, but the ideas which he espoused over centralised control of power turned out...through no fault of his...to be just as oppressive.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:23 AM

"You should all be ashamed of yourselves..."

No-one should be ashamed of holding and arguing for their opinions, and to suggest they should is condescending at best. I disagree with Teribus on many things but should he be ashamed of holding his views? No way.

One of my heros is James Connolly, but on this forum he'd be condemned as a hypocritical left-winger as he was an ardent support of unionism and the rights of the ordinary working man, as well as being a committed socialist.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM

Jack....I fully agree with you on Connolly and the fight for Irish independence, but that is a different subject.

What I was referring to was the small minded attitude of many on the left, who still see a lifetime of toil and struggle to support a discredited political system, as acceptable; and how their bankrupt dogmas are now being dressed up in political correctness to deter any who question them. For example, see how these stupid remarks by a remarkably stupid woman have turned into a "cause celebre" for us lefties.........The "piss on Thatchers grave" attitude shames us, we as "democrats" put her where she was for 18 years!

The problem with the left is that we want our cake, and eat it.
Socialism in a Capitalist society....Don't make me fuckin' laugh, we are simply posturing....we're not ready for real life!!


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:35 AM

Speak for yourself.


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM

Didn't John McLean stop a gang of ruthless international criminals from robbing a state of the art modern building?

And then stop another gang who had taken over the control tower of an airport and were crashing planes ...

... I'll get my coat ...


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Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Baroness
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 02:24 PM

I quite like the Thatcher games at http://www.maggiethatcher.com though!


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Mudcat time: 25 May 2:22 PM EDT

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