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Form 696 - Anti music legislation

Manitas_at_home 02 Dec 08 - 08:55 AM
nickp 02 Dec 08 - 08:58 AM
Leadfingers 02 Dec 08 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 02 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM
BB 02 Dec 08 - 09:16 AM
muppitz 02 Dec 08 - 09:21 AM
TheSnail 02 Dec 08 - 09:21 AM
Sleepy Rosie 02 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Dec 08 - 12:53 PM
kerry and Mandy 02 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM
VirginiaTam 02 Dec 08 - 03:19 PM
Don Firth 02 Dec 08 - 06:57 PM
Lanfranc 02 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM
M.Ted 02 Dec 08 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,Gweltas1 02 Dec 08 - 09:44 PM
pavane 03 Dec 08 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 03 Dec 08 - 03:34 AM
VirginiaTam 03 Dec 08 - 04:15 AM
Sleepy Rosie 03 Dec 08 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 03 Dec 08 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,Hamish Birchall 03 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM
GUEST, Sminky 03 Dec 08 - 08:08 AM
GUEST 03 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM
Folkiedave 03 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM
Mix O'Lydian 03 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Bob L 03 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,foggers 03 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 08 - 12:34 AM
CupOfTea 04 Dec 08 - 12:48 AM
VirginiaTam 04 Dec 08 - 03:07 AM
Sleepy Rosie 04 Dec 08 - 05:14 AM
VirginiaTam 04 Dec 08 - 05:44 AM
Sleepy Rosie 04 Dec 08 - 07:00 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Dec 08 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Brian 04 Dec 08 - 09:14 AM
Snuffy 04 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM
Folkiedave 04 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM
VirginiaTam 04 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM
Faye Roche 04 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM
Rog Peek 04 Dec 08 - 12:50 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM
Sleepy Rosie 04 Dec 08 - 02:42 PM
BB 04 Dec 08 - 02:54 PM
VirginiaTam 04 Dec 08 - 03:14 PM
Sleepy Rosie 04 Dec 08 - 03:23 PM
Sleepy Rosie 04 Dec 08 - 03:33 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Dec 08 - 04:15 PM
Sleepy Rosie 04 Dec 08 - 04:36 PM
Faye Roche 05 Dec 08 - 07:54 AM
VirginiaTam 05 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM
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Subject: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 08:55 AM

Please sign the e-petition at the link below to protest against Form 696.



The 696 Form compels licensees who wish to hold live music events in 21 London Boroughs to report to the police the names, addresses, aliases and telephone numbers of performers, and most worryingly, the likely ethnicity of their audience. Failure to comply could result in fines or imprisonment. We believe this places unnecessary and frankly Orwellian powers in the hands of the Metropolitan Police, an institution which does not have the best record of racial fairness. The 696 form can only serve to deter the staging of live musical events - a positive form of activity in London and all cities - stifle free expression and quite possible penalise certain genres of music and ethnic audiences. It is an intrusion too far.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Scrapthe696/

Colin Callan

29 Clarkson House
6 Great Stanhope Street
Bath BA1 2BQ

Tel: 07760 402221


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: nickp
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 08:58 AM

done


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:07 AM

Done !


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM

Me too.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: BB
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:16 AM

Some people seem to believe this isn't true, but further research dicovers an article in the Independent on 21st November, and the actual form on the Metropolitan Police site. I've tried to do links, but for some reason can't do so, so try doing what I did and google "form 696" (I didn't believe it at first either!)- you should find both.

Some people also say that the petitions do no good, as the option to sign them simply gives the government the excuse that they consult the people, so find any other way to harrass the government or Boris Johnson or your MP about it as well.

Incidentally, this isn't actually legislation as far as I can see - it's not in the Licencing Act - it looks far more as though it's the police taking the law into their own hands, which is really frightening considering what else has been happening recently!

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: muppitz
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:21 AM

Definitely in, as an event organiser I'd hate to have to provide such details, it may even push me into folding the club were it to stretch outside of London (Which it invariably would!).

muppitz
x


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:21 AM

Signed.

See this previous thread - all singers are terror suspects.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

How loathsome.

Is the potential power of the collective political singing voice (marching & protest songs?), being 'by the way' quietly silenced by this act?


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 12:53 PM

It is regrettable that this petition has (probably) sprung prematurely: I know one was under consideration from other sources. The main point for me is this. Consumer music (what Fergal Sharkey represents) can comply with the requirement for form 696. The names are booked in advance. What cannot comply is less formal music: the open mic, the singaround, the folk club where people join in on chorusses.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: kerry and Mandy
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM

and us. all singed


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 03:19 PM

done here and Chris as well.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:57 PM

I would sign it, save that, being American, my signature probably wouldn't be legal. What has me curious is this: What is the stated rational for this regulation? Does this have anything to do with the BNP, which I keep hearing so much about lately?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Lanfranc
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

Duly signed.

Don, this is nothing to do with the BNP. To my horror, even they would appear to be more moderate than the present UK Government and their agents in the Metropolitan Police (cf the present furore over the arrest of an MP who dared to obtain and release information embarrassing to our Scottish overlords (AKA "New Labour")).

Such a parcel of rogues in a nation....

Alan


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 08:36 PM

Don,the rational, I believe, corresponds to our own "Patriot Act", (which now requires that I present identification to purchase certain "over-the-counter" cold medications). The idea being that certain types of performers attract certain types of people-

I am appalled, but not surprised by this.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,Gweltas1
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:44 PM

Done


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: pavane
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 02:35 AM

Signed


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 03:34 AM

I think there is a danger of a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to this. The form is a risk assessment, and it surely cannot be disputed that for some events a risk assessment of this nature is advisable.

However, there's no doubt that the form is very insensitively worded, which has provoked the accusations of racism. Some of the wording is also quite threatening, as it implies that failure to co-operate will result in the event being stopped. One of the policemen interviewed about this said something along the lines of "If you don't complete this form you're putting your venue at risk". But perhaps this is just the plod's traditional cackhandedness when it comes to PR.

There is also some confusion over where it is to be used. The police are saying it's only intended for large events, and that a pub putting on music for its regulars needn't bother. But the Met's definition of a "significant event" covers all licensable live music events, and the form also apparently covers private parties, which I thought were outside the Licensing Act.

I've only looked at a couple of boroughs' Licensing Policy Documents but in these ones using Form 696 is only a recommendation and is not mandatory, except in some cases for nightclubs and similar events.

What would be helpful is some evidence of how it is actually being applied. Is it just being used for large events? Is it being used mainly for events which are likely to attract certain ethnic groups? Is it being applied to all licensable live music events?

Nevertheless, I have signed the petition. Firstly, even if there has been an over-reaction, there is the danger that licensing authorities may come to see this as best practice, and in usual CYA fashion will apply it to all live music rather than have to make difficult and possibly contentious decisions over which events require it. Secondly, I resent the implication that any live music event is a threat to law and order. Thirdly, for the sorts of music that Mudcatters will be most involved with, it is impossible to comply with, since at most folk clubs and sessions you won't know in advacnce who will be performing.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 04:15 AM

Is it me or is government growing more "bass ackward" as time passes? This form falls on the heels of the issues that cropped up during last Knottinghill Carnival, am I right? That says something about the racist implications in it self.

As an American living in England, I have been quite surprised how little personal judgement policemen are permitted. When I first moved here I was gobsmacked by arrest of a woman for carrying a lethal weapon (her son's toy plastic sword) on the back seat of her car. Remember the fellow shot dead for carrying a table leg. Look at Jean Charles Menendez. This can't all be poor judgement, there is something wrong in the way the police are recruited and trained.

Not that things are much better in the US what with brutality and inappropriate racial targetting by police. I suppose there are and will always be pockets of mass stupidity with the power to make collosal mistakes. Bless the media for always letting us know.

So who is up for a music demonstration in London? Would be great if could be a kind of strolling wassailing force.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 04:26 AM

Love the idea of a strolling singing demo...


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:20 AM

I can see why the police introduced this form. No one can deny that some music events do attract trouble, and it helps both the organisers and police to carry out a proper risk assessment. However it's pretty stupid of them to have so blatantly aimed it at black music or black audiences, and it's also pretty stupid to suggest that all licensable live music is a threat to law and order and requires this form to be completed.

I'm sure the police don't actually want to be inundated with thousands of forms covering events and genres of music which have run for years with no crime or trouble all. They must want to focus on those events where there is a serious risk of trouble.

As usual, the danger lies with bureaucracy overtaking common sense, and the risk that this will come to be applied indiscriminately. Of course, the other danger is that it will be applied too discriminately, based on the ethnicity of the performers and/or audience rather than actual risk.

The problem is, that the police's only experience of live music is those events which require a police presence - the vast majority of events which take place with no crime or trouble just don't register with them. From a copper's point of view, the connection "live music = trouble" reflects their experience. It doesn't reflect mine, and I suspect most people's, if you take the whole spectrum of music.

But is there any actual evidence of the form being used inappropriately, or of licensing authorities insisting on its use even for low-risk events?


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM

Despite being repeatedly asked by individuals and organisations (Musicians Union, Live Music Forum and others) over the past 5 years, neither the police nor the government have produced any evidence suggesting that live music results in significant crime and disorder.

Occasionally there is trouble at some gigs. But the police don't need Form 696 or the Licensing Act 2003 to prevent it. They have powers under separate legislation to intervene if they believe there is likely to be a breach of the peace at a venue.

It would be helpful to know how Form 696 is actually being implemented. But a more relevant question might be:

Why don't the Met and London Councils ask bars with big screens to provide the names, addresses and dates of birth of all punters who come to watch football?

In 2003, the police wrote to Tessa Jowell, then Secretary of State at the Department for Culture, recommending that televised sport in bars should be made a licensable entertainment because 'it attracts large crowds and quite frequently leads to disorder'.

The government rejected that recommendation.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 08:08 AM

Done.

I suspect the form may be in breach of the Data Protection Act (excessive information), but I don't suppose that will cut much ice with the Met.

It's a disgrace.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

Hi there, Mudcat neighbours - we're up in arms about it over at The Session.org as well:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19942


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM

And please seem my post here......

thread.cfm?threadid=116679&messages=1


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Mix O'Lydian
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM

There is now a discussion about this on thesession.org

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19942


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

Must see what our local singing copper has to say...


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,foggers
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

Done.
I could write a massive rant about civil rights and the long arm of bureacracy using the front of "crime/disorder/terror" to erode our rights to assembly and freedom of expression (which I have always interpreted as meaning musical and other cultural expressions of identity) . But I am knackered and need to go to bed.

Love the idea of a protest wassail though!


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Subject: Form 696 and Chicago's Promoters' Ordinance
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:34 AM

Chicago is also facing a similar ordinance Chicago Promoters Ordinance) that has the potential to destroy the independent music and arts community. For more info there is an excellent video documentary "Chicago's Promoters' Ordinance Kills Independent Music"

Humankind doesn't need nanny state policies to keep us safe, in favor of restrictive laws that replace our right to express ourselves freely. Bottom line is that NOTHING is going to keep you "safe" from anything. You may as well enact a law that prohibits the selling of peanuts because you can possibly choke on them.

We ALL need to stand strong on this garbage.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: CupOfTea
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:48 AM

Yanno, the "no anonymous guests" policy is a real good one, not just for keeping out the idjit comments, but to make it possible to get more information (when one can't follow the links) from someone who could be messaged.

I'd dearly love to know what's going on in Chicago, and my heart goes out to those in the London area dealing with pigheaded bureaucracy that looks to be doing nobody much good.

Joanne in Cleveland


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:07 AM

Hi Joanne

I am not the guest who posted above, but the link worked for me.

paste this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5115748195521107862&ei=WV83ScXwFaGI-gH0jfmsCQ&hl=en

in to your browser URL field. Hope it works.


To others - I am still up for the Protest Wassail.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:14 AM

"I could write a massive rant about civil rights and the long arm of bureacracy using the front of "crime/disorder/terror" to erode our rights to assembly and freedom of expression (which I have always interpreted as meaning musical and other cultural expressions of identity) . But I am knackered and need to go to bed.

Love the idea of a protest wassail though!"

Foggers, you should write that rant.

I wish someone decently clued up on the matter would. So much legislation that has been brought in for our protection, gets abused and ends up being used against us, that I find the broader potential implications of this legislation very unsettling. I don't know if Liberty have commented on it yet. But I'd like to hear something from them. The government are still desperately trying to shove ID cards up our arses via whatever excuse possible, despite mass public disinterest and increasing suspicion. The UK is fast styling itself into a classic Sci-Fi dystopia.

I hate to have to put it this way, but 'colourfully dressed, nice clean, safe, white people of a certain age', need to be seen demonstrating against this legislation, to show the average Mail reader that it isn't just the evil dangers of all those 'muslim terrorist rapper immigrants', that we are being protected from.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:44 AM

snerk Rosie....

'colourfully dressed, nice clean, safe, white people of a certain age'

unblacked Morris sides carrying great muckin' sticks. I am definitely in.


Let's really confuse the buggars and go out singing the Celtic Jihad Rap

but maybe we ARE too white for this.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:00 AM

Lol, that med me giggle..

Sheesh, just realised that the entire town of Wivenhoe fits my description. As does all of Woodbridge.
Better get Celtic Jihad Rap song sheets on mass production.

Too White? Surely not, what with all those multi-coloured woolly socks, scarves and jumpers? ;->

Seriously, I think it's a sound idea. And if people cared enough to turnout, it could gain broader publicity - though no-doubt of the 'and finally' kind, and maybe encourage further debate.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:30 AM

Also on facebook

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42439007135


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:14 AM

Signed.

For those interested, you can download Form696 from here


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM

I wonder if the Metropolitan Police have received a Form 696 at least 14 days in advance from the Royal Albert Hall for Handel's Messiah on 14-19 Dec? A mere 500 voices plus the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, sound operators etc: listing the real name, stage name, address, phone number and date of birth of that lot should be an absolute doddle. As well as listing what equipment will be available to facilitate searching on entry

Or is this event "white" enough not to need a 696?


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

The original act allows music on lorries - the largest event of which that does this of course is the Notting Hill Carnival.

Indeed had that clause not been inserted then the event could not have gone ahead.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

As well as listing what equipment will be available to facilitate searching on entry

Good question!

Who gets the job of entering the data (in timely way) from returned forms into that machine?

Who decides incidence potentiality at any given event? Will they flag certain events?

BLACK - 25 mixed teenagers and adults HipHop birthday party in Peckham
ACTION - major police presence in riot gear

ORANGE - St Patricks parade in Covent Garden
ACTION - moderate police presence

WHITE - 5 blacked up morris dance sides / handful of folk musicians / 2 ferrets and a horse / Harley Davidson Club at a beer fest in a pub southeast London
ACTION - police presence none - unless by infiltration in a morris side.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Faye Roche
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

Why not take this idea a bit further?

We all have ID cards and whenever we go into a gig to perform or listen we scan them through a reader. Come to think of it, whenever we go into any public building we scan them. Then Big Brother will know exactly where we are and where we've been at any time. Anyone who attended too many subversive events like Billy Bragg concerts could be more carefull monitored.

The PC police would also be able to monitor gigs for ethnic balance and anything that was too "white" could be closed down.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Rog Peek
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:50 PM

Absolutely disgraceful.

Still, performers being seen as a political threat is nothing new. - From time in memorial.

Petition signed

Rog


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM

Faye, if you live in London your Oyster card gives them pretty well all that anyway...

And your credit cards

And road cameras that read number plates


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:42 PM

I'm experiencing some despair of this forum setting in.

Only been a member for a few weeks, but in that small amount of time there have been *three* threads that have strongly taken my notice, which *were and are* worthy of more energy and investment of active interest, which have already begun to sink out of trace.

I find myself frustrated through lack of wisdom or experience and as such incapable of taking any serious intiative. But happy to participate, were others with greater knowledge and experience to intitate the right action will do so.

It's all very well to 'that's aweful' and 'hum and ha' at the Gaurdian while drinking a nice half of your favourite brown ale and reminiscing. But while the romance of past traditions makes us feel comfy, the reality of current political bull-shite ever impinges on the naive romance of 'The Shire'.

Perhaps I'm wrong to feel this way?
Are the members of this list more 'thinkers' than 'do-ers'?

Of course I'm too new to judge, but in particular I'm personally quite disapointed in the current lack of 'yays' to Tams suggestion of a singing protest. Such a highly pertinant and incredibly easy thing to say 'yeah, I'm up for it' to.

Come now folk, engage. If nothing else, it'd be jolly good fun!
Of course it could always just be my time of the month... ;-)


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: BB
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:54 PM

Might be incredibly easy if you live in London or the South East, Rosie, but a lot more difficult (and expensive!) if you live in the wilds of DevonSHIRE! (or YorkSHIRE, or...)

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:14 PM

Before I get started I would like to disassociate myself from Rosie's cycles. No offense my dear, as one who is happy to have non functioning ovaries I can now justifiably defend my passions as not being hormonally based. Something I've waited long years to say.

Why does a protest have to be only in London? Just because the form currently only includes London it sets a dangerous and copiable precedent.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:23 PM

I disagree, I'd move hell and highwater to acheive something I truly cared for. Which is the reason that so many things we now take for granted have been achieved. Progress is achieved through extreme discomfort and resultant dis-ease and conflict, decline of progress through extreme gratification of primal needs and resultant ease and apathy.
There's grit in my spam sandwich.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:33 PM

Aye, fair enough VTam.
Too much... I get heated.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:15 PM

I and my Performer-Lawyer group fought the Licensing Act 2003 tooth and nail for about 2 years - and got precisely nowhere, because the Lib-Dems sold us out in the Lords.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:36 PM

Richard Bridge, in all seriousness, all power to your elbow!!
I've no party colour flags to fly here.
Anyone who is willing to make an effort on behalf of their civil liberties is always something of a hero for me.
Thankyou for helping to preserve my liberties, however subtley.


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: Faye Roche
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:54 AM

There's an easy way to protest against this nasty piece of legislisation; don't fill in the form.

If we all agree to co-operate in this they can't prosecute all of us can they?

I can see this being taken up elsewhere if we don't fight it. Local councils throughout the land are full of little Hitlers who would welcome it just because it increased their powers to snoop on us and control us.

I don't normally play in London but if I ever do, I'll refuse to fill it in. Who's with me?


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Subject: RE: Form 696 - Anti music legislation
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM

In another thread on the same issue, someone suggested we fill out copious forms for everything from church choir practices to kids birthday parties, to school plays. Make em sorry they ever thunk the stupid thing up.


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