mudcat.org: Pagan Songs
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


Pagan Songs

DigiTrad:
ALLSOULS NIGHT
LORD OF THE DANCE (PAGAN)
O, SAVE US FROM FAUX PAGANS (Or, Observations at a Renaissance Faire)


Related threads:
Folk artists who are pagan (124)
pagan yule (7)
Pagan/Wiccan songs for Samhain? (37)
BS: Help: Pagan Stuff Hiya, I've loved it (4)
BS: Witches! Good and Bad? (124)
The Pagan Alternative. What's the music? (118)
Chants vs. Song: why don't Pagans *sing* (48)
Pagan thoughts on 'Santa Claus' (109)
'Pagan Chant of the Month' site May '02 (8)
Pagans v. Hell's Angels AGAIN! (57)
BS: Free pagan E-Cards with GOOD music!! (14) (closed)
Lyr Req: Pagan/LARPS songs (3)
Link: Pagan versions of Christmas carols site (3)
UK Pagan Fed Conference (16)
BS: Paganism: an exploration (28)
BS: More pagan stuff (118)
Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Research Project (75)


Sleepy Rosie 12 Nov 08 - 03:16 PM
lady penelope 12 Nov 08 - 03:36 PM
Sleepy Rosie 12 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 12 Nov 08 - 04:22 PM
Sleepy Rosie 12 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM
Jack Blandiver 12 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM
Sleepy Rosie 12 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM
Tangledwood 12 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM
ClaireBear 12 Nov 08 - 05:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Nov 08 - 06:01 PM
Bill D 12 Nov 08 - 06:22 PM
Jeremiah McCaw 12 Nov 08 - 07:42 PM
GUEST 13 Nov 08 - 12:30 AM
Darowyn 13 Nov 08 - 03:39 AM
Bryn Pugh 13 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Dáithí 13 Nov 08 - 07:07 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Nov 08 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 13 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Nov 08 - 09:43 AM
Darowyn 13 Nov 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST 13 Nov 08 - 10:25 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM
Sleepy Rosie 13 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM
Sleepy Rosie 13 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM
Mrs Scarecrow 13 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM
vectis 13 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM
Bobert 13 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM
Bryn Pugh 14 Nov 08 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Suffolk Miracle 14 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM
greg stephens 14 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM
Les in Chorlton 14 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM
greg stephens 14 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Nov 08 - 06:44 AM
Paul Burke 14 Nov 08 - 06:47 AM
Les in Chorlton 14 Nov 08 - 07:02 AM
Piers Plowman 14 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM
Piers Plowman 14 Nov 08 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 08 - 08:08 AM
Sleepy Rosie 14 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM
Piers Plowman 14 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM
Piers Plowman 14 Nov 08 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,Drood 14 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM
Sleepy Rosie 14 Nov 08 - 10:37 AM
Paul Burke 14 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Nov 08 - 11:04 AM
Les in Chorlton 14 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 08 - 12:42 PM
Bryn Pugh 19 Nov 08 - 06:56 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM
Sleepy Rosie 14 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:








Subject: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:16 PM

This is a spin-off from something another poster mentioned in relation to pagan Yule songs.

A friend of mine who also likes to sing and gets out and about quite a lot in all kinds of accoustic circles, has sung to me a small handful of 'pagan songs'. I'd not heard any before, but a couple that she sang in front of me and another friend were very lovely and moving, especially in the context of a blossoming apple orchard last May Day! So I've been quite curious since, and have looked on the web for some more in that ilk.

Unfortunately I can't say that I've been all that impressed with the little that I've found. A few rather lack-lustre dirges at best. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, or in the right places?

Can anyone send me in the right direction to discover more, or am I better simply sticking to discovering more traditional song?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: lady penelope
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:36 PM

There's The Green Man's A Traveller

But frankly I find 'pagan music' to be rather like christian rock... It all tries too hard and misses by miles. But far be it from me to say 'never'... *G*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

Lol! Lady Penelope, yup, I think I get you there! I was listening to some pagan chant that was meant to inspire fire spirits, and I thought that it was one of the dampest and wettest pieces of yawn I'd ever heard! If I *genuinely* wanted to inspire the spirit of fire, something like The Prodigy's 'Firestarter' would IMO work far more efectively! Pity, 'cos the songs I heard my friend sing, were indeed quite moving and atmostpheric, maybe it was that magical apple orchard!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:22 PM

Anyone for "Pagan Love Song?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Awwww, so perty!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM

How pagan do you want? On Christmas Day, I'll be turning the heating up, switching on the sun lamp, lounging in the Tiki room sipping a long cool Mai Tai to a suitably exotic soundtrack of Arthur Lyman, Martin Denny & Les Baxter... A real traditional English Christmas in other words.

On New Year's Day we're going over the road to see Ken Dodd at the Marine Hall. How cool's that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

Charmin..!

'Minds me of some of my lovely (they are lovely as it happens) Mearseyside relations.

Many a suger-saturated glamorous sounding cherry-speared coctail has been supped of a traditional Northern Christmas, upon those faux leather bar stools...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Tangledwood
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

Maybe not pagan songs as such, but some of Cloudstreet's work might fit the bill. Lady Penelope mentions the Green Man; I assume refering to John Thompson's song. He also wrote "Dance up the Sun" as a celebration of Morris dancing and Nicole's "Gypsy" calls on earth, wind, fire and water. Words are on their website - http://www.cloudstreet.org/ourmusic.html    (sorry, clickifier page doesn't appear to be working).   On the CD sales page, click song titles to get the lyrics.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: ClaireBear
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:12 PM

I go to a monthly pagan sing, primarily because I want to introduce those poor benighted folk to music that, while suitable for pagans, wasn't written as a pagan hymn, anthem, or chant -- or, often, wasn't written by an avowed pagan at all. My first criterion is that it be good music.

Some quick examples:

Dave Carter, "Gentle Arms of Eden" and "When I Go"

Dougie Maclean, "All Together"

Ann Lister, "Demeter's Daughter"

Leo Kretzner, "Bold Orion on the Rise"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:01 PM

"Dinner Music for a Pack of Hungry Cannibals."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:22 PM

Somewhere, down in the catacombs, I have a Xeroxed little booklet of Pagan songs a friend gave me 25 years ago! **IF** I can find it, I'll scan it & post it.

No promises...I haven't looked for it in years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:42 PM

Loreena McKinnot's "All Soul's Night":

All Soul's Night
Loreena McKinnot

Bonfires dot the rolling hillside figures dance around & around
To drums that pulse out echoes of darkness moving to the pagan sound

Somewhere in a hidden memory images flash before my eyes
Of fragrant nights and straw bonfires & dancing to the next sunrise

chorus:
I can see the lights in the distance trembling in the dark cloak of night
Candles & lanterns are dancing, dancing; a waltz out on all soul's night

Figures of cornstalks bend in the shadows held up tall as the flames leap high
The green knight holds the holly bush to mark where the old year passes by

chorus:

Bonfires dot the rolling hillside figures dance around & around
To drums that pulse out echoes of darkness moving to the pagan sound

Standing on the bridge that crosses the river that flows out to the sea
The night is full of a thousand voices that pass by the bridge & me

chorus (x2):


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:30 AM

Burn a witch
See them twitch
Start at her snatch
To she her hatch
The Devil's own
Son of a Bitch


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:39 AM

If the audience are sufficiently credulous, you could do almost any folk song, on the basis that it is a concealed reference to the true religion.
Someone will believe it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

As a devout and practising Pagan (Wiccan) of over 37 years initiation, I'd like to say that there is more bullshit talked about our music and its purported links to Magick, than enough.

I have never hidden my admiration of, and for, Ewan McColl, but at MSG over 40 years ago he and Peggy sang a version of 'The Broomfield Hill' Ewan stated that the chorus was 'a breakdown of a Druidic chant'.

Oh, aye ?

I agree with Darowyn.

Perhaps - and it is IMABHO a bloody big 'perhaps' - this remnant might be pagan, in that it refers to shape-shifting, and the shape-shifter of these Islands, the Hare (Andrasta)

I shall go forth in the shape of a hare
With sorrow and dule and mighty care.
And I shall go in the Old One's name,
Aye, till I come back again.

But we shall go as hunting dogs
And hunt thee over hags and bogs.
And we shall go in the Lady's name,
Aye, to fetch thee back again.

Peter Bellamy (RIP) did a splendid job with Kipling's "Oak, Ash and Thorn", which I and my contemporaries sing as part of our Midsummer ceremonies.

No reason why anyone else might not do the same with materials from 'Rewards and Fairies', and 'Puck of Pook's Hill'.

I am afraid that when I hear a song described as 'pagan' in any way, shape or form, then unless I know for a fact that the singer is Pagan, my unspoken thought is "Bollocks".

I see we have another 'Guest' troll - post of 12.30, above . . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:07 AM

Sleepie Rosie - a druid I know called Damh the Bard writes and performs at numerous Pagan gatherings. some of his stuff is really excellent - especially the first album.

Try here www.paganmusic.co.uk   ..sorry, can't do clicky things!

good luck

Dáithí


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:43 AM

this remnant might be pagan,

Or not. There's a few of these in New Age / Pagan literature purporting to be in some way Traditional but are derived entirely from Robert Graves' poem The Allansford Pursuit (see footnote on page 402 of The White Goddess), itself an elaboration on a verse collected during the trial of Isobel Gowdie in 1662. Even a cursory glance at Bob Stewart's Where Is Saint George? Pagan Imagery in English Folk Song will reveal the subject to be another dead horse to be liberally flogged by the otherwise rootless lost for the want of scriptural or canonical provenance essential to their claims. See also the threads on the Green Man, another pagan archetype which isn't what it appears to be...

When it comes to truly pagan music, the dark heart of reverential wonder must resonate in the immediacy of the ceremonial moment; something of the Tertius Auris whereby ritual is the shamanic wounding essential to any true communion - something a bit like This perhaps.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM

When it comes to truly pagan music

Is anything truly pagan? Is such definitive language appropriate when we're talking about something that's not merely All Made Up (arguably true of all belief systems (Christianity, the law, money, etc)), but All Made Up Quite Recently and in some cases All Still In The Process Of Being Made Up? Would your last sentence work just as well with the nouns and adjectives shuffled into a different order ("whereby wonder is the reverential heart essential to any shamanic ritual")? And why, oh why, haven't I got any speakers on my work PC?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:43 AM

All Made Up Quite Recently (AMUQR) Amuq would do

and in some cases

All Still In The Process Of Being Made Up (ASITPOBMU)- Asitbobu can almost be spoken!

Chiz

L in C
With clearly nothing better to do


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:10 AM

Asitbobu would be a perfect pseudo-pagan entity to invoke during an Amuq ceremony!
Cheers
Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:25 AM

Circle the Moon by Pentangle?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

Have it whatever way you like - looking at it again I might go for wonder is the reverential whereby to any essential shamanic heart ritual. All of which reminds me of the letter I had published on page 97 of the double January/February 1991 number of Folk Roots (Nos. 91/92) in which not only did I get away with Hatched toothed blood hooks in bone rattles on shamans frozen drum in blind panic blizzard but also finger fuck foreplay. I don't think I was doing hyphens (or apostrophes) back then, but its still an achievement I'm proud of, especially as I made mention of Jim Eldon and Sun Ra in the same sentence! Plus ca change...

Pagan Songs? There's only ever been the one really.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PylJkN9FEoU&feature=related

Respect!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

Sone interesting thoughts here. And some helpful feedback. I'll follow up the leads offered and hopefully I'll discover some good evocative songs.

I suppose I hadn't even considered exactly what 'pagan song' is, except for the fact that they were described to me as such by the friend who sung them!

Insane Beard, you make some interesting comments. By 'truly pagan' you seem to be describing a more cthonic sound evoking perennial mythic themes? Loved Shibboleth BTW, though I'd have a hard time trying to sing it! The way I read you, it sounds like your saying something may be described as 'truly pagan', where 'pagan' is functioning more as a verb than a noun. The same might of course be argued of Robert Graves himself, an inspired poet, doing creatively what all good Druids are supposed to do..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM

BTW in particular to Bryn, if it's of any moment, the friend who sang me her 'pagan songs', is a long-time initiated Alexandrian Wiccan lady. I don't know if that makes the songs that she sings any more Pagan with a capital P than they might be if I were to sing them (as a formally un-intitiated but nonetheless essentially 'earth-mystic' type)? I'm not being contentious, merely interested. I also think using Puck of Pooks Hill, sounds a fabulous idea... If only I'd kept those childhood volumes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

At the risk of self promotion Mr Scarecrow and I have a number on our CD "the Scarecrow" There arealso one or to on Stolen KIsses, the CD I made before I married when I was Ann Mathews


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: vectis
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM

Down here in Sussex UK we have Maria Cunningham a born again pagan songwriter and next door in Kent there is Alan Austin also pagan singer songwriter.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

"Bad Moon" by Creedence Clearwater Revival

"Season of the Witch" by Super Session

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:43 AM

My family and I are well aware that our belief system might date only from the 1950s, put together by Gerald Brosseau Gardner. I knew Alex Sanders, and what a joker he could be - initiated by

his witch grandmother, my arse ! We are comfortable with this, and don't need any canonical or spiritual endorsement, written or other. It boils down to a Wiccan teaching, which could equally apply to any

other belief system :

" . . . if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou wilt never find it without thee . . . ".

To put the cat well and truly among the pigeons : "It depends on how you define 'pagan'", don't it ?

At risk of being boring, did I mention Pete Bellamy's "Oak, Ash and Thorn" ?

I've ordered 'The Scarecrow', and would be interested to hear of other 'pagan' writers, or writers of 'pagan' materials,

Wise and Blessed Be, all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

There used to be a bloke called Gordon Ridgewell - quite possibly still alive (check letters to English Dance and Song: the ones that end Wassail instead of Yours sincerely are from him!) He had a theory (some might say an obsession) that all the surviving traditional carols were originally pagan and that the church (overtly or covertly) forced people to Christianize them. So far so good as a theory - might even be true (in at least a few cases). The problem is that he then tried - on the basis of very little evidence as far as I can see - to reconstruct the originals. He used to sell Christmas cards with the words on. In my opinion they are unsingable, but who knows ... I'm afraid the few examples I had, having been kept since the 70s, finally got the order of the boot when I moved last year. But someone may still have some; and there was a book on the same subject, I think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

A young person of my acquaintance recently told me they were considering starting a Christian jazz band.I imagine the sort of thing they wouild be aiming at would correspond rather closely to such examples of Pagan Song as have come my way. ie Made Up by people not very good at Making Up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM

Ok to be a boring pedant where not really wanted, I guess the technical term is hypothesis rather than theory.

A theory is a perhaps an underlying collection of knowledge, understanding, concepts or whatever that helps to explain something. Their is a theory based in maths that helps to explain notes, octaves, 3rds and 5ths and so on.

George Ridgewell, along with lots of others, had a hypothesis ( I think this because of that)"all the surviving traditional carols were originally pagan and that the church (overtly or covertly) forced people to Christianize them which he attempted to test". If lots of evidence had been revealed it may have become a theory. The evidence has not really been found.

As Suffolk Miracle says "some might say an obsession" not uncommon amongst EFDSS /Morris Ring members of a certain age on a whole range of topics including the role of women in all sorts of things and the origins of Morris dancing.

Wassail

L in C


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

All discussion of this topic are bedevilled by the use of two opposite meaning of the word pagan often used in the same sentence.
1) Ancient beliefs eventually largely/totally replaced by the spread of Christianity in the the first millennium AD.
2) Load of cobblers invented in the 60's.
Trying to merge these two opposing concepts into a cohesive belief system is an achievement which has so far eluded our greatest thinkers, not to mention our songwriters.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOLLY AND THE IVY
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:44 AM

that all the surviving traditional carols were originally pagan

Actually, I'm guilty in this respect too, having once reset The Holly and the Ivy to the tune of Searching for Lambs and, if not paganised the words, then attempted a more ceremonial approach in terms of a certain understanding of folklore:

The Holly and the Ivy,
Now that they are full grown,
of all the trees that are in the wood,
The Holly bears the crown.

The rising of the winter sun,
the running of the dear,
The Holy seed of the mistletoe
in the dawning of the year

The holly bears a sharp prickle,
As sharp as any thorn,
And the wren's heard pierced
In the darkest night,
Is healed before the dawn.

In Winter time I danced alone,
And felt the growing cold
And lighting fires from fallen trees
I warmed my dying soul*

I saw the sun reborn again
Melt through the winter snow
And drank afresh from holy streams
swollen with the thaw.


I forget the rest, perhaps thankfully. Mind you, that was over twenty years back when such things appealed to my darkly rural sensibilities and pagan was my default state of mind.

* This verse features on the cover of the 2000 Psychedelic Pig American CD re-issue of the Masstishaddhu : Shekinah LP Mike Watson, Richard Rupenus & I recorded for United Dairies in 1988 - not a million miles from Shibboleth (& featuring the same hurdy-gurdy, though once again rather low in the mix!) it's one that no self-respecting pagan should be without...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:47 AM

..if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou wilt never find it without thee..

I've never understood why theein' and thouin' is essential if you're going to be a religion, but the quotation does seem to preclude taking on board any new information. I hope Pagans don't really think that. I've learnt a lot from other people and events, including changes of attitude. In particular, John Pilger's exposes of events in Cambodia in 1975-78 brought about a major change of the way I think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 07:02 AM

Excellent point Paul. Does this not cast some Pagans into the same place as other religious fundamentalists? It's all in the Book? But not all DIY or maps of France?

Chiz

L in C


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM

The problem with pagan poetry is that writing reached Western Europe along with Christianity. So, except for some mostly very terse texts written in runes, to the best of my knowledge all literature in Western Europe was written down after Christianity was well established. There may be the odd exception here and there, but certainly not many.

It seems clear that pre-Christian ideas, imagery, etc., survive in many songs, tales, etc., but it's very, very difficult to know what was real and what wasn't. In Iceland, where the conversion to Christianity was not by force, a great deal has survived, but written down later and filtered through a Christian perspective. Nonetheless, there is a good deal of poetry that goes back to pre-Christian times and is accepted by scholars as genuine. Not necessarily singable, though.

There's a kind of gap in between the medieval collections of songs, which outside of Iceland were a matter for the upper classes, and the beginnings of the collection of folksongs and ballads in the Romantic era. There are similarities between the two types of texts but no one really knows what happened in the centuries between. In addition, one should approach the surviving materials and especially the early collections with some skepticism, which has often not been done.

Very, very muddy waters indeed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:00 AM

"Nonetheless, there is a good deal of poetry that goes back to pre-Christian times and is accepted by scholars as genuine. Not necessarily singable, though."

I mean in Old Icelandic. In other places, and especially in Old English, there is hardly any, because it was suppressed.

Quite a bit survives in Celtic languages, e.g., _The Mabinogion_ in Welsh, but I've never studied this and can't say much about it, except that it is wonderful to read. (I have studied Old Icelandic and a few shreds of what I once knew survive in my memory.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:08 AM

Hiya again Sleepy Rosie. I have a couple of pseudo-pagan albums somewhere. I'll dig them out of you like and rip them to MP3. PM me if you want them.

Cheers

DeG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

The ref. to the Wiccan quote "find it within you" sounds rather more Gnostic (in terms of its self-revelatory nature) to me, than in any way typical of fundy religions.

By far the most interesting and inspiring Christian writings I've ever read have been penned by heretics, mystics and madmen 'making it up' and going against the orthodoxy by sourcing from within rather than from a ("The") book.

I guess modern neo-Paganism is very much a work in progress. The whole thing could probably do with a few more genius poets, madmen and rebels in the mix to spark my full-on interest though.

With regards to origonal pre-Christian pagan sung material, I have heard Norse rune chants ('skaldr' meaning 'croaking' I think?), and they can sound quite pokey, but they're not exactly 'songs' in the way we might think of them. And despite being fascinating sounding, I won't be memorising any for the next folk club evening!

DeG, I think your offered 'pseudo-pagan' MP3, sounds like it might both: a)fulfill my initial brief, and b) be suitably contention free. Many thanks, I'll PM you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM

Skaldic poetry was a form of alliterative poetry with complex rules. Quite a lot of it has survived, mostly embedded in stories about when this or that verse was spoken. Because of the complexity of the rules, one can reasonably certain that they are reasonably authentic; i.e., it would be hard to find alternative words that would obey the rules. On the other hand, the interpretation is quite difficult and a lot of the material one has to work with, such as the main editions, are sadly out-of-date.

One amazing thing about it is that typically they are supposed to have been spoken without days and days of preparation and understood by people who heard them, at least, after pondering upon them. They are _very_ cryptic, like the London Times' crossword puzzle or the questions in the "Round Britain Quiz".

Many refer to mythological subjects but if I recall correctly, most that have been preserved are post-Christian. Some may even have Christian subject matter. It's been a long time since I studied this and I never studied skaldic poetry very much.

There are later works called "ballads" preserved in Icelandic and Faeroese. They were sung or chanted and danced to, though I believe it was rather simple dancing with lots of stamping. I imagine it to be rather lugubrious and not so much like the dancing of Fred Astaire or Isadora Duncan, however someone who knows more may correct me.

The ballads are not as popular as some of the other genre's of Icelandic literature. The Eddic poetry and many of the sagas are genuinely enjoyable to read and the Eddic poetry in particular contains a great deal of mythological information about pre-Christian Skandinavian religion --- all of it written down by Christians, so it must be taken with a large grain of salt.

Of course, there's archaeological evidence from pre-Christian Europe, some information from Greek and Roman authors (and at least one Arabic one!) and comparative material from other Indo-European religions, but we really don't know an awful lot about pre-Christian religion in Western Europe and Britain and what we do know is often very uncertain. It's too bad, but that's the way it is, and one must be very cautious when drawing conclusions about what pre-Christian religion was in Britain or elsewhere in Western Europe. Unfortunately, not everyone is, but then not everyone is interested in the subject from a scholarly perspective.

Writings about pre-Christian religion have gotten a lot of attention from scholars since the beginnings of Germanic philology, but one should bear in mind that a great deal more material with Christian subject matter has survived. The emphasis on pre-Christian religion tends to skew our perception of what people were reading and writing. For example, where there is one manuscript of "Beowulf", there may be 20 manuscripts of a vita of the Virgin Mary.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:49 AM

"genre's"

Sorry, that apostrophe was surplus to requirements. I'll leave one out sometime to restore the balance of the universe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: GUEST,Drood
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

right then, we got all the theoretical stuff out the way,
now can we just all strip off and swing our wobbly bits about
and dance around in circles..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:37 AM

If you feel brave enough Drood, I'll happily indulge you wobbling - at a discreet distance of course.

If your wobblings fail to encourage our shy autumn sun out of his hibernation however, I might be inclined to pop your wobbly bits in one of those lovely warming Wicker Man style 'pagan bonfires' instead.

Pragmatic lot them pagans innit...?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

In the west end of Derby there lived a wicker man...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:04 AM

If you look around on the Interwebs you can find an MP3 copy of Hearken to the Witches' Rune by Dave and Toni Arthur for free download (it's long since deleted & hasn't been brought out again). If you're interested in paganism in religious terms it's absolutely no help to you at all - it's just a bunch of spooky folk songs and a few tunes, (plus this ghastly spoken-word bit by Dave about how his friend's brother-in-law's grandad once met the King of the Fairies or something). The atmosphere's brilliant, though.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM

I seem to remember that Toni was a Witch and Dave Swarbrick was involved at some level


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:42 PM

Could only find the one, Rosie - PM'd you on how to get it.

DeG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:56 AM

Toni and Dave were both witches - Alexandrian tradition .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM

Well I never. Did Brian Cant know about this?

Anyway, I maintain that the album is just a bunch of spooky songs!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pagan Songs
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM

Imbolc (Candlemass) coming up in a few weeks. So have been scanning around for possible seasonally relevent songs to learn.
Hopefully something to do with the return of the light, snowdrops, Brigit and other similar Imbolc/Candlemassy type stuff.

Gotta share this with people here. It err 'moved' me, but I'm not sure exactly how...

Imbolc Song


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 6 December 7:55 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.