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not bad for an englishman

The Sandman 14 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,beachcomber 14 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM
The Sandman 13 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Smokey 06 Oct 08 - 08:26 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 08 - 12:59 PM
Banjiman 06 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM
Teribus 06 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM
TheSnail 06 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 08 - 04:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 08 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 08 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Smokey 05 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Oct 08 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,Smokey 05 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM
Aeola 05 Oct 08 - 03:41 PM
ard mhacha 05 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,beachcomber 05 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 05 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM
ard mhacha 04 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM
ard mhacha 04 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM
Betsy 04 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM
Tradsinger 04 Oct 08 - 12:05 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM
Teribus 04 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM
Teribus 04 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM
ard mhacha 04 Oct 08 - 08:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Oct 08 - 05:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Oct 08 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 08 - 04:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Oct 08 - 06:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM
Banjiman 03 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 08 - 02:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM
Megan L 03 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM
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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM

no,of course not,
and as I stated earlier, the majority of Irish people are very friendly.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

Good man Captain Birdseye. That is exactly what that person was acting, and poss/prob with drink taken too?
It happens everywhere, doesn't it ?
You aren't going to "go away" though are you ? from the music scene or from Ireland , I hope, because of one "b-----ks ?


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

yes.but the woman[a Dubliner].does not do the booking.
she was just a dub,in west cork acting the bollocks.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:26 PM

Dick - did they book you back?


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 12:59 PM

I'm totally with Paul - I'm not, nor ever have been a 'Republican sympathyser', I have no idea of Ard Mhacha's political leanings so he can speak for himself.
I am interested what our politicians and military does in my name with the support of my taxes, and Ard Mhacha's described experience, and many more I know of (including a few of my own on visits to the North-East) go far beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned.
I am happy to discuss my views on Irish history with anybody off-line but please don't throw shit about.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM

Please can this thread be closed.

It has degenerated from an amusing (or not) friendlyish debate about minor abuse (or not) of a fine singer and musician into something really nasty, scary and thuggish.

Paul


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

"Teribus:
As you sidestepped offering an opinion on whether Ard Mhacha was a bomber"

Now you tell me Mr Carroll - exactly what part of this do you not understand:

"Jim, in no way have I stated any opinion as to whether Armagh planted bombs or not, I have no way of knowing that, perhaps you should direct that particular question to him."

But I do realise that you have a little trouble with simple comprehension - Armagh said that his little run in had happened "returning from my newsagent during the `troubles`," - You Mr. Carroll translate that to:

"For that matter, where were you when Teribus was justifying the thuggish behaviour of armed and uniformed thugs towards a member of this forum (repeated thousandsfold over the last forty years - this week) in the name of law and order?"

At least he walked away from it Jim, his fate would have been a damn sight less certain if it had been the un-uniformed thugs of PIRA that had reason to pull him up - classic example Mrs Jean McConville - in your diatribes about thuggery tell us about her Jim, what happened to her amounted to rather more than being spread-eagled against a wall, being shouted at and given a dig in the ribs - oh and of course she never walked home ever again did she, Jim??

Now let's see what would have happened had the Security Forces not been present in their role of aiding the civil power:

In the field of explosive ordnance disposal in the period 1972-1978, over 400 Wheelbarrows (remotely operated vehicles used to counter-mine bombs) were destroyed while dealing with terrorist devices. That's 400 bombs that did not go off, did not kill or maim anyone. I'll give you, Jim Carroll and your pal Armagh a little challenge - I've offered it before on this forum and up to date no republican sympathiser has ever been able to respond to it. Give me one example where a member of ANY paramilitary group, that operated during "The Troubles", sacrificed his own life to save a member of the public, a "civilian", in Northern Ireland. By the bye, bombers who died assembling or transporting their own bombs do not qualify.

Now I on the other hand can give you many, many, instances of members of the Security Forces, Police Force and emergency services who did just that. I can also give you many, many, instances where those you appear to support acted deliberately in such a way as to cause as much death and dismemberment of innocent civilians amongst the general population that they were telling the world they were trying to "protect". Both you and Armagh seem to have a very weird idea of what behaviour deserves condemnation - because I have never heard either of you condemn the excesses of the paramilitaries - and I mean all of them, republican as well as loyalist.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM

I lost patience with that one.

Did the nose flute with a union jack on it come anywhere in the top ten?


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM

Jim Carroll

where were you when...

They were over on the England's National Musical-Instrument? defending the UK folk scene against the serious threat to the UK folk scene posed by WalkAboutVerse's appalling poetry and championship of a mythical musical instrument.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:36 AM

The only persecuted minority on this thread are the musicians. Any attempt to addresss the basic proposition that its wrong and against the spirit of the folk club movement to undermine and not 'get behind ' the guest of your folk club is being firmly resisted.

One way to resist racism would be to create oases of tolerance and decency. The folk clubs used to be such places.

Racism is just part of the package of people who wish to give themselves a licence to be nasty, snotty, intolerant and generally full of shit. If you're not English enough for the English, not Irish enough for the Irish, not traditional enough for the traditionalists, not interesting enough for the ones who wish to be entertained....then its okay spew up bile, poison the waters.

Some people can't even bear to swim in the very waters they have themselves polluted. Damn right, the fault lines run through the movement like Blackpool through the rock.

Theres that parable about removing the plank from your own eye, whilst worrying about the speck in your neighbours.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:29 AM

Jim,

Dave... you are missing the point ...

You have sidestepped the point for so long, Jim, I am begining to wonder if you happen to be the world fencing champion!

You rally, rightly so, against John from Kensings racist views. Thanks for pointing them out, I apologise for missing them earlier. I suggest that if you want to know my views on this very subject ou go to this thread on 'British Criminality'. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT.

If you want to know my view about apologists you need go no further than this thread. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT.

But just in case I am not getting the message across again

1. Suggesting immigrants are troublemakers - WRONG
2. Beating up innocent Irishmen - WRONG
3. Blowing up innocent English people - WRONG
4. Making jokes based on nationalist stereotying - WRONG   

I said before and will say again - vastly differing degrees of wrong but wrong all the same. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT.

But, back to the point. Remember that, the point? What this thread is about? Yes?

A musician felt, rightly or wrongly, that he had been the subject of number 4, above. None of us were there. Only him and the antagonist in question.

A few people believed that he over reacted and said so, quite politely. Fair enough.

Other people, maybe due to some personal feud, decided to use it as an opportunity to abuse him further still.

Some saw it as an excuse to restart Anglo-Irish hostilities

Others used it as a platform for racism.

I have made my mind up which faction to support and make no excuse for backing Dick. I know him, trust him and have no reason to believe he would lie.

I suggest people just make their own minds up as to whih mast they nail their colours too.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:27 AM

"John from Kemsing"
As you quite rightly anticipated, I do believe your contribution to be deeply racist and has no place on this thread. Should you wish to open the topic in the non-musical section I would be happy to participate.
In the meantime, I would like to thank you sincerely for emphasising my point on endemic racism so well.
To all those who raised their skirts, leapt on the table in horror and shouted "race" when the Cap'n told us of his ordeal - where were you when John made his point? Where were the roars of protest at his 'immigration equals violent crime, prostitution, drug-dealing, people trafficking equals "go somewhere else"?
For that matter, where were you when Terribus was justifying the thuggish behaviour of armed and uniformed thugs towards a member of this forum (repeated thousandsfold over the last forty years - this week) in the name of law and order?
Have you all shouted yourself hoarse at the mauling our Cap'n received at the hands of that dreadful Virago?
THE SILENCE WAS DEAFENING.
Terribus:
As you sidestepped offering an opinion on whether Ard Mhacha was a bomber, perhaps you might offer one on how many lives might have been saved by the thuggish behaviour he described.
Dave:
By suggesting that racism is confined to Sun and Daily Mail readers, you are missing the point - you are equally likely to find it among Financial Times and Telegraph readers - the accent may well be different, but the end result is the same. Racisim goes through our society like Blackpool goes through rock I'm afraid.
I have an apology to make.
When this thread started I had the feeling that I had fallen down a rabbit hole and had partaken from a bottle marked "drink me" - I often do with some member's contributions. I couldn't for the life of me see where racism entered the equasion.
I was wrong - racism is present in abundance on this thread - I was looking in the wrong direction.
Would any of you like the use of a mirror?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM

"you are a umusicianly tuneless twat, and you could for bore at professional level for the small nations cup winners cup. are you by any chance in training for the 440 yards boring buggers olympic event?"

I didn't realise you knew my girlfriend.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:03 PM

well no - if she'd said - you are a umusicianly tuneless twat, and you could for bore at professional level for the small nations cup winners cup. are you by any chance in training for the 440 yards boring buggers olympic event? - that would require wit, sang froid, and a certain je ne sais quoi.

Not to say physical courage - for he might come up with a rejoinder like Bugger off! You sad git. No I won't sign your cd!

being a snotty snerchy superior sneering shitbag is just so typical, it precludes all that badinage!


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM

The phrase 'not a bad singer for an Englishman' says merely that there are Englishmen who are better at singing and there are those who are worse. That is a fact. Trying to make an issue of racism out of someone calling an Englishman an Englishman looks plain batty to me, or at worst, racist in itself. I'm quite sure if the lady had actually intended to be racist or insulting, she could have done a lot better than that.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Aeola
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:41 PM

Phew!! I sense some sort of resolution to the main thread and the many sub-threads. I think the main problem is that our views are coloured by our very individual experiences. Personally I must have been very fortunate through life for I have met so many people I would call friends and very few I wouldn't. It was some 40 years ago when I first visited Eire at the time the border guard's hut was blown up at Newry. On my travels I met all sorts of people in Dublin, Naas, Cork, Bantry, Galway, Dingle etc and everyone welcomed me. I have been back many times and still continue to make good friends. Funny thing is the same thing happens in Europe, Central America and Southern England, Wales & Scotland oh! and Yorkshire!!!!


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM

Dave with your permission is it ok if I close this version of , much ado about nothing.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

Hey! Didn't know I had that sort of power:-) Wonder if I can do the same with Gordon Brown???

It will never be won or lost, BC, but surely it's the journey that matters - not the destination.

Cheers

D.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

I go away, just to obey Dave, and ..they're still at it!
Does anyone imagine that the argument will be won , if it goes on long enough?


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM

yeh right, we're all such sensitive flowers.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

Ah well Al, I dare say anybody could take offence at anything that is said to them, their problem.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

surely its up to the person who's suffered rudeness to say whether he has or not.

as for ard, well they weren't carrying on like that in Margaret thatcher's constituency, were they/ you could argue a racial basis.

However people don't say shit like that to plumbers and dog walkers and ambulance men - whatever their nationality.

Its something that afflicts musician. that's what we're talking about.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

"Teribus you've had an umpteen threads to bang on about this" - WLD

"In response to Jim Carroll's post of 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM and his comments relating to my statement:"

"In response to" being the operative phrase.

"this is something I care about, which doesn't come up all that often. Namely the way some people think its alright to be rude to visiting musicians." - WLD

Eh, No Al. The thread is about people making what could be construed as "racist" comments. And I, for one, do not believe that the lady in question was being rude, or "racist" at all. In exactly the same way I do not believe that Armagh's experience, as described by him in this thread, unpleasant as it undoubtedly was for him had nothing to do with "racism".


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM

Jim,
      The following has nothing to do with the original innocent thread but reading your comments, I feel a response is in order.
         I hope, for the sake of everybody, our younger generations will be much more tolerant and integrate to the extent that differences are diluted as to be insignificant. But please spare a thought for those older Britons who have seen changes, over a very short period, in their land and citizenry that they find difficult to come to terms with.
       Areas, dominated by "communities", illegal immigration with agencies unable to impose effective redress, undoubtedly increases in violent crime(Especially the knife and gun. When Craig and Bentley were involved with shooting the policeman it occupied the press for ages. Today there are so many daily incidents it`s not worth reporting). The capital and other major cities being even more ridden than the 60`s with sleaze, prostitution, people traffiking, drug dealing, street fraud, mostly in the hands people coming to this land from abroad and the police apparently hamstrung to do a lot about it. Calls for changes in our laws, set by our parliament, to accomodate people whose beliefs are different from those of the indigenous population(nobody seems prepared to say "If you don`t like the way we do it, try elsewhere"). Groups of people flagrantly disregarding the rules and regulations necessary for a towns and cities to exist in harmony and comfort and the elected authorities whose job it is to enforce them, for the good of all, stymied by political pressure.
             This is only the tip of the iceberg. If you feel speaking out about the above is "racist" then well and good but could you possibly recognize also it could be a cry in the wilderness from folks who feel they have lost something that was dear to them. Naturally, no country is squeaky clean when it comes to crime,etc. and we are no exception, all the more we have no need to import it.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

Teribus you've had an umpteen threads to bang on about this. this is something I care about, which doesn't come up all that often. Namely the way some people think its alright to be rude to visiting musicians.

And its on the music half of the page, which I think underlines what the subject under discussion is, or should be.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

In response to Jim Carroll's post of 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM and his comments relating to my statement:

"I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher."


Please read this Jim and then tell me what the number of dead and injured would have been without the presence of the Security Forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Friday_(1972)

"The Nazis who decimated Lidice used a similar argument" according to Jim.

No they did not Jim, by the bye Lidice was not decimated by the Nazis as you stated it was completely destroyed you can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

Funny thing about the term "decimate" and how people use it. Decimation was a form of military discipline used by officers in the Roman Army to punish mutinous or cowardly soldiers. The word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth." i.e. it was a severe form of punishment that did not seriously destroy the fighting capability of the formation it was imposed on.

And no Jim, in no way have I stated any opinion as to whether Armagh planted bombs or not, I have no way of knowing that, perhaps you should direct that particular question to him.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM

Dick if I ever meet you in Ireland I will personally apologise for that nasty lady`s remark and buy you a pint.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

Perhaps the lady in question was simply being honest and expressing her opinion. She must have quite liked your singing to have even bothered to have stayed long enough to do that. Be grateful. Smile graciously and say 'thank you'. It's called professionalism.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Teribus and Dick, if only my old arthritic limbs had at that moment not been playing up , just think, a few more knife wielders would have been off the streets of England.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

Well, the bathroom's a lovely shade of blue. Along with bits of me, but that's life:-)

Nice to see you Ard Mhacha - What kept you:-)

No one at all is decrying the events you describe. On a scale of 1 to 1000, Dick's episode is about 0.5 and yours must be up in the millions, but it is all part of the same problem. Once you see different people as something lower than you, these things will happen. Whether it is snide remarks or the army boot - If it is meant to hurt someone because they are different then it is wrong. Vastly different degrees of wrong of course but both wrong all the same.

Betsy. If whingeing means believeing that no person should be subject to abuse, verbal or physical, because of their race, creed, nationality, colour, sex or anything else then sign me up. I would be more than happy to be a whingeing Pom if did something to stop the mistreatment of the indigenous Australian peoples.

Just to remind people and maybe put this back on thread - None of us were there. No one heard or saw what was said except Dick. We do not know the lady in question's intentions. If Dick said it was done maliciously then I know him well enough to believe him. I may treat the situation differently myself but Dick has every right to complain if he feels it was abusive. And he should be allowed to do so without getting further abuse from people who have no idea what really happened!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Betsy
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM

As an English person - through and through - but a great lover of Irish and Scottish songs and tunes - reading some of the posts may give credence to Aussies calling us whingeing Poms.
I cannot believe as I said earlier that this remark was nothing more than a bit of craic.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:05 PM

I saw a sign in an America store once saying 'Please patronize our staff'. I was tempted to go up to one of the employees and say 'You speak quite good English for an American'. But I didn't
:-)


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM

"I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher."
I seem to remember that the Nazis who decimated Lidice used a similar argument - or are you suggesting that Ard Mhacha was planting bombs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM

On the thread topic:

"I finished a gig last night,sat sep27,a woman approached me and said I was not a bad singer for an Englishman."

Unfortunately I do not know what material Dick was using that night. As a Scot if I was singing predominantly Irish songs to an Irish audience, and the same thing happened to me, I'd take it as a compliment, the lady after all did feel that the performance warranted praise but even I would not expect to sing "folk" or "street" songs as well of someone born in the place the song was written about. For example there are some very well known Dublin songs that should never, ever be sung by anyone who does not have a Dublin accent, they sound terrible.

I believe Dick that this lady did enjoy your performance and that it was a compliment - I have heard you sing and have enjoyed it immensely. Whatever the upshot don't let it put you off.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

In what way was it rascist Armagh??

What newspaper was it?

Now correct me if I am wrong but were those those troubles where a group of edjits with no mandate from anybody went around planting bombs designed to kill and terrorise the civilian population.

If memory serves me correctly they managed to kill about 2500 - 3000 of them and wound and maim about 30,000 of the very people that they were proclaiming they were "protecting".

I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:04 AM

What an amazing Thread, Dick consider this, returning from my newsagent during the `troubles`, I was spreadeagled up the wall of my house, my eardrums blasted by an English accented soldier who entertained his mates by suggesting that the newspaper I carried was for wiping my ass.
I was smashed in the ribs by one of these peace-keepers and staggered into my home, now that was racist.
Think about it, in your own street confronted by armed uniformed strangers, do you get the message, God help Dick he really suffered.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM

BTW - May not be able to answer for a while. Going back to my roots and painting the bathroom:-)

D.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:49 AM

Jim, I am a computer consultant and have worked with dozens of different people at all levels. I have always lived in Manchester and now live just outside 'inner city' Salford. My father immigrated here from Poland and worked in the mines and mills of Lancashire before marying my shop girl mother. He became a painter and decorator and I followed him into the building trade at first, becoming a clerk, then inspector for the local council building maintenance department. I am, and always will be, a working man.

I drink in the pubs around Salford and Swinton and, yes, there is some awful bigotry goes on in the vaults and bars, usualy from people with a Sun or Daily Mail under their arms. I myself was subjected to bigotry at a young age and my parents changed our surname from Polakow to help stop this. But conversley, in the folk clubs, where most of my good fiends come from, you would be hard pushed to find a bigot amongst them. I don't believe that situation is any different from anywhere else in the world. The point is, there is good and bad everywhere.

I am not looking though rose tinted glasses, nor am I 'cocooned' as you suggest. But neither do I view the majority of English people with the cynicism you do. I think we are both flogging a dead horse if we try to make a guess as to what the percentage of bigots would be - You may start at 90% and I may start at 10. I don't think we will ever meet. The point is you cannot say, whatever the percentage is, that the English are a nation of bigots. It is demonstrably not true and blatantly wrong to mark a whole nation with the traits of some of it's people.

And this is where we came in.

Using stereotyping to portray a whole nation as one type of person, whether it is to say they ae bigots, they cannot sing or they are thick, is neither true nor acceptable. I suspect I will never convince you otherwise but if, on occasions, someone stops to think what the consequences of calling someone a thick Paddy, tight Jock or racist George are then at least I will have done my bit.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:11 AM

I still don't see why that makes it allright to be rude to travelling musicians who come your folk club. theres no excuse. wherever they come from, or wherever you come from. theres simply no place for that sort of snide remark.

Its a major discourtesy to someone who has travelled to your club and tried to entertain you. You can sit at home and make nasty remarks to the TV screen, but in company we should try to be more civilised.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:34 AM

Dave,
I didn't say England was inhabited by 'racist thugs' - nor do I believe it to be the case. The racists I met were mainly 'ordinary decent people' - apart from the fact that they were racists.
Fortunately, the vast majority of people anywhere who hold views - about anything - never act on them - they just hold them - and tend to elect politicians who 'they believe' will carry them out.
Powell's downfall came because he became a political embarrassment and stepped over the line of diplomatic decency , not because thousands took to the streets in opposition to his filth. On the contrary, the majority of people I spoke to at the time (and later - and in some cases even now) agreed with him and many yearn for his like again - just try to think back to the open support he got from all quarters.
I have no idea where you live and what you do for a living; I am a manual worker and have lived in three of the major cities in the UK. Because the subject of racism is important to me I have always sought the views of those I worked and socialised with - the opinions I now hold are based on my own experiences, backed up by what I have read and discussed with others. In my opinion, Britain is a deeply racist society, largely passive, but capable of surfacing when the occasion arises.
In London, for over thirty years we chose to work with a persecuted minority - Irish Travellers. We witnessed and were a subject to discrimination and harassment, both institutionalised and general, on a regular basis. Perhaps you would like to hear about the proposed fire-bombing of a Gypsy site on Streatham Common which we helped to prevent (or the ones that we know took place), or the hundreds of pubs we couldn't get served in because of the 'No Travellers signs on the doors, or our being stopped regularly by the police in the vicinity of the sites because we might have been thieving, or the police in East London who took back-handers so they would leave the Travellers in peace, or the many unofficial evictions by private security firms (including the one that burned three Traveller children to death because of the reckless manner in which it was carried out), or the persecution of Traveller children who tried to attend school, or the rat infested sites Travellers were forced to stop on (often used by opportunist locals as a rubbish dump) because the councils refused to carry out their legally required duty to provide official stopping places - or perhaps all this might penetrate the cocoon you appear to have wrapped yourself in!
A suggestion - wherever you live, take a straw pole of those around you; many will almost certainly tell you they are not racist, then go on to prove that in fact they are. Ask them about asylum seekers, about immigrants, Gypsies, Muslims - and see what you come up with, and how much your findings confirm or contradict my own.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:30 PM

By all means tell me that in-built bigotry in Britain isn't your experience

OK - in-built bigotry in Britain isn't my experience. :-D

Can you say that just because it is yours that it is everyones? I think I have just proven that you cannot. So why say that, because it is your experience, it must be everyones?

I mentioned before. I had a strange experiece on Antigua, where I was called a 'white nigger' by a group of young black men. Does it mean that Antiguans are bigots? Does it hell. I have enough common sense to know that all Antiguans are not represented by the ones that took offence at my walking down their road. Because you had some bad experiences of bigotry you are now saying that all Englishmen are bigots? Well, maybe not but it is what you are implying and this thread is about implications based on stupid stereotypes.

For heavens sake, Jim. get a grip. The vast majority of ALL people are decent human beings who would not wish harm on anyone. The English are no exception. Oh - and I think you will find that not only the UK have anti-racism laws. See the post, above, by Martin Ryan, "Ireland has recently had its first case of a complaint of racist treatment of an English worker in the workplace, upheld."

I am also of an age to remember the 'rivers of blood' speech. I can also remember what it did to Mr Powells political career. Tell me, hand on heart, that you believe that England is inhabited by racist thugs and I think you will prove just who is the bigot after all.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

Statistically we're all better off than the poor sods born in the third world. what has dick being english got to do with it.

If someone was rude to Dick - no its not all right. when you travel round as a solo artist -   its not all right to be rude to anyone and try to discomfort them when they are a guest in your club.

Incidentally the last time I was Ireland I stayed with a lady of afro carribean background and she was getting out. She thought Dublin was a very racist place and all her family had been the subject racist attacks and abuse. She was from Manchester and she thought Dublin was more racist than Manchester or London.

round where I live in the Nottinghamshire pit villages (although there ain't no pits no more!) - the people are also insular and racist. Our newsagents children were the subject of a race attack.

Attitudes are changing but only very slowly, and probably not at all amongst the older and less educated people. The tory press wih its nasty stream of innuendo and smear is part of the problem. None of us can afford to be smug about this evil in our midst.

None of which changes the fact that, Dick doesn't deserve to have to put up with sneery snidey shit from obnoxious arseholes who should be kept in a kennel and away from the folk clubs where the grown ups play.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

I find myself in the unusual situation of agreeing with almost all that Jim Carroll has said on this thread.


....I still can't take the original question seriously. I just don't think that white males of Dick's obvious intelligence and talent can really be disadvataged by many "isms". He belongs to one of the historically and currently most privileged groups in the world. ....who should be big enough (and understand the other persons position enough) to laugh off the kind of comment made, however it was intended.

Then we can start to worry about those who really suffer oppression and disadvantage based on illogical prejudices.

Paul


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:40 PM

"Yet another bigoted stereotype, I'm afraid."
Dave,
By all means tell me that in-built bigotry in Britain isn't your experience, but please don't tell me it isn't mine.
I can only speak as I have experienced on both sides of the fence.
Over my last 20 years of living in London it got such a stage that, to my eternal shame I just avoided discussions on race because of the inevitable arguments. What upset me the most was that it was automatically assumed by the people I was talking to that I shared their racist views.
I'm just old enough to remember the "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" notices in the windows of boarding houses in Liverpool; my father worked in a building industry where many of the firms operated a strict 'No Irish Need Apply' policy.
I was educated in a system which had me flag-wagging on Empire Day and singing racist hymns about keeping foreigners hands "from error's chain".
I remember the Kings Cross Colour Bar Strike and the Notting Hill riots. A few months ago I watched a re-run of Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech and the East London dockers marching in support of his racist policies.
When I moved to London in the sixties and started phoning round for work I was invariably asked where I was from, and on at least three occasions I was asked what colour I was.
If I was working on a site and the topic of conversation turned to race I invariably found myself on my own.
In the course of our work with Travellers I was once unfortunate enough to end up in The Blade Bone pub in the East End where they had a Union Jack hanging up behind the counter and a picture of a lynching in the American South on the wall.
The London I lived and worked in was an extremely racist city - please don't try to tell me it wasn't.
Racism is so endemic a part of British life that it has been necessary to create laws to counteract it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

I don't think it matters, Pip. Even a small percentage of anti-anything bigotry is too much. BTW - I could be one of the few people on here that has been called a 'white nigger'! Happend on Antigua when a group of young men in a pickup truck drove by. Still not sure what it means!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

By this vey remark you are portraying the English as a nation of right wing racist thugs.

I think you're misreading Jim's argument. I think the point is that there just isn't that much anti-English bigotry around, precisely because historically (or even in the last 100 years) there's been a lot more oppression by people claiming to be English than oppression of people labelled as English.

I don't entirely agree with Jim about laughing this kind of thing off - I think it's wrong & shouldn't be condoned - but I do agree that anti-English bigotry just isn't a political problem in the world out there, in a way that (say) anti-black bigotry very definitely is. Think of it as a statement about statistical probability - if you take any random incident of national bigotry, anywhere in the North Atlantic Archipelago, how likely is it that the victim has been singled out for being English? Not very likely, I suspect.


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

I can assure everyone that I did not want to start the 'racist' argument. Apologies for mentioning it but I will restate my original post to make my intentions clear. If, as an Englishman, I had the temerity to poke fun at the Irish I would have been accused of racism within a dozen posts. I suspect the thread would be closed. As to the view than some Irish people hold for the English please just look back at some of the threads on mucat to see examples of anti-Englishness. BTW - There is only one race as far as I am concerned - The Human race. That out of the way let us then look at 'bigotry' as Jim calls it.

As things stand at present, the English are far more likely to be the perps rather than the victims of racism.

Yet another bigoted stereotype, I'm afraid. By this vey remark you are portraying the English as a nation of right wing racist thugs. Besides, even if this were true, would it not be better to stand up to the 'perps' rather than make snide comments?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM

PS Sminky/Terry:
Point taken - perhaps 'national bigotry' would be a better term.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

strange no one seems to have looked at the truth of the matter, the good lady had in fact seen a great many first class English singers and musicians and was merely stating a fact.

Meg *grabbing her coat and heading for the cellar


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Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

"You say it is unacceptable to make disparaging remarks about the talents of Black or Jewish people, yet conversely feel that the same remarks to an Englishman can be laughed off. Why is this?"
Your hypothetical examples would be totally ridiculous and dismissible on a level playing field - which in our case we have not got!!!
As things stand at present, the English are far more likely to be the perps rather than the victims of racism.
Whether it appeals to us as individuals or not, cross-nation, community, trade, gender, religious..... differences, whatever social group you care to to name, are a long established part of our culture and as such, have been the subjects of our theater, literature or entertainment - take a look at Shakespeare, Chaucer, Marlowe, (or our folk-songs) if you doubt this. It is only when it is intentionally vindictive and the political or social situation merits caution that this becomes a problem - if no actual conflict between the groups exist, it may not be to your (or my) taste, but it really doesn't matter. For those who seek it out, offence can be found in anything - do we really want to 'please all of the people all of the time' and reduce our lives to anodyne numbness?
Can anybody seriously believe (apart from the most 'precious' among us) that 'not bad for an Englishman' was intended as an insult?
Were the situation different and genuine antipathy by the Irish towards us Brits alive and kicking, the case would be different - as things stand a Brit is far more likely to refer to a "T'ick Paddy", than an Irishman to a "tight-arsed Englishman" (or even "a British Hun" - very popular pre-1922). When I was working as an electrician in London I can vividly remember being told by one of my customers - "We have an Irish family living a few doors away; we always check under our car before we drive away in the morning".
We get a large number of British visitors here throughout the year; for the music, the surfing, the beaches - or just for the friendliness and hospitality Ireland is renowned for. This sort of raillery goes on constantly - from all directions - without giving offence.
For crying out loud - don't make problems were there are none and please don't reduce racism to such trivia as this, it really merits far more seriousness.
Jim Carroll


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