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Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?

Mrrzy 27 Sep 16 - 09:49 AM
GUEST 26 Sep 16 - 10:09 AM
Mrrzy 26 Sep 16 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 26 Sep 16 - 04:36 AM
Mr Red 26 Sep 16 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 26 Sep 16 - 01:19 AM
Joe_F 25 Sep 16 - 06:56 PM
The Sandman 25 Sep 16 - 05:27 PM
Mr Red 25 Sep 16 - 04:17 PM
GUEST 25 Sep 16 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 24 Sep 16 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 24 Sep 16 - 10:56 PM
Jack Campin 24 Sep 16 - 08:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Sep 16 - 11:59 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 16 - 08:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Apr 13 - 01:38 PM
Jim Dixon 22 Apr 13 - 11:07 PM
Jim Dixon 22 Apr 13 - 10:40 PM
Jim Dixon 22 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM
Claire M 24 Mar 13 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 24 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 13 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM
bobad 24 Mar 13 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,mando-player-91 24 Mar 13 - 07:47 AM
Joe_F 23 Mar 13 - 05:16 PM
Claire M 23 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM
Joe_F 08 Mar 13 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,jeff 08 Mar 13 - 05:24 PM
Jack Campin 08 Mar 13 - 02:16 PM
Claire M 08 Mar 13 - 12:59 PM
Melani 17 Jul 00 - 03:44 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 00 - 09:46 PM
Rick Fielding 16 Jul 00 - 09:35 PM
InOBU 16 Jul 00 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Paul Siebel 15 Jul 00 - 11:03 PM
The Shambles 10 Jun 99 - 02:55 AM
The Shambles 10 Jun 99 - 02:52 AM
Peter T. 09 Jun 99 - 10:10 PM
katlaughing 09 Jun 99 - 09:26 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Jun 99 - 09:00 PM
Folksie Lady 09 Jun 99 - 08:32 PM
Susanne (skw) 09 Jun 99 - 07:06 PM
Charlie Baum 09 Jun 99 - 03:33 PM
The Shambles 09 Jun 99 - 03:07 PM
katlaughing 09 Jun 99 - 11:39 AM
Jeri 09 Jun 99 - 10:43 AM
Peter T. 09 Jun 99 - 08:59 AM
The Shambles 09 Jun 99 - 02:29 AM
Lonesome EJ 09 Jun 99 - 01:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 09:49 AM

Ha ha ha ha ha! Boy do I get a different visual on "Emma Jean" than on "Imogene" ha ha ha ha ha but anyway.

As a child I thought "two little boys" was about a couple. Seemed normal enough to me in my non-heteronormative upbringing...


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 10:09 AM

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/amazing+rhythm+aces/emma+jean_20654796.html
Emma Jean, not Imogene


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 09:57 AM

Imogene, won't you unlock your backdoor screen
And invite me in for some gin and lemonade
I'd really love to love you
My little half-tropical maid

something something about tangoing with Amanda and being two lovin' lesbian ladies, don't recall the rest, too lazy to look it up, also not sure it's old enough


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:36 AM

Is She Is Or Is She Ain't
The Charmer (Louis Walcott / Louis Farrakhan)

I am trying to find a solution
'bout a certain person.
Trying to find a solution
'bout a certain person
With this modern surgery,
They changed him from he to she;
But behind that lipstick, rouge and paint,
I got to know, is she is or is she ain't?

I wonder what gave him the idea and the spark
To leave the country bound for Denmark?
He tried to live the life of a man;
But that was not in accord with Nature's plan,
So he underwent this operation
And came back home to shock the nation;
But behind that lipstick, rouge and paint,
I got to know, is she is or is she ain't?

When he/she came back to this country,
They made her a popular celebrity;
Under public sentiment,
she got movie contract and plenty engagement.
People all came out of curiosity
To see this amazing freak of the century;
But behind that lipstick, rouge and paint,
I still wonder, is she is or is she ain't?

When that lady walk across the stage,
they call her the wonder of this modern age.
Now she making plenty money
Because of her moves and plastic surgery.
Drawing down twenty thousand a week,
and not one listening to this record could get a peek.

So behind that lipstick, rouge and paint,
What you think she is?
Boy, I know she ain't!

A 'modern' calypso about Christine Jorgensen (1926 – 1989) the first American trans woman of reknown.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 02:59 AM

Joe_F. I didn't imply Woody wrote it, nor even if he sang it. Just that he was fully aware of the implications of the original lyrics.

FWIW Wiki On BRCM has it as most likely a Folk song (anon) claimed by Harry McKlintock.

I got the right song though:
    And I'll be damned if I hike any more
    To be buggered sore like a hobo's whore
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains


I presume hike is a euphemism.
Burl Ives never sang those lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:19 AM

Given the drift at the top of this zombie I'll allow myself a pair of pop singers. Helen & Lucille Western were probably America's first child actors 'gone bad'.

Helen (1840-1868) was better known as her character Eva (Evangeline St. Clare) from Uncle Tom's Cabin much the same way today's generations grew up with Miley Cyrus as 'Hannah Montana'.

Both Western sisters starting butching it up on stage as soon as they got old enough to choose their own material. Helen went cavorting around town at all hours with the likes of John Wilkes Booth. Shocking! Parents were aghast but the soft porn cabinet cards just kept flying off the racks.

Of course the changes to cork-face after the 1863 New York draft riots prove American audiences have had a short attention span from the git-go. Neither sister died of old age.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Joe_F
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 06:56 PM

Mr Red: Not Woody Guthrie but Mac McClintock.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:27 PM

there is aversion of our captain cried all hands that goes "girls love one another", does it qualify? or is the suggestion girls should love one another because they will lose men in war more likely


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:17 PM

Now where did I read that "Big Rock Candy Maintain" was a reference to the kid of guys that Woody Guthrie had to avoid while traveling on trains and sleeping on them?
Or was it a different song involving "Mounting"? (cue double entendre)

I am pretty sure it was "Woody Guthrie: a Life" by Joe Kline.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 01:47 PM

I just started reading this thread from the top and thought "WTF decade are these guys living in?" and then realised that somebody had reopened a 17 year old thread.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:06 PM

Lola and Wild Side both came within a few years of the American 'Stonewall' riots. They were kind of twin anthems for the next generation.

Lola
The Kinks

I met her in a club down in old Soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like Coca-Cola/cherry-cola
C O L A cola
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her her name and in a dark brown voice she said Lola
L O L A Lola la-la-la-la Lola

Well I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola la-la-la-la Lola
Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walk like a woman but talk like a man
Oh my Lola la-la-la-la Lola la-la-la-la Lola

Well we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said little boy won't you come home with me
Well I'm not the world's most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes well I almost fell for my Lola
La-la-la-la Lola la-la-la-la Lola
Lola la-la-la-la Lola la-la-la-la Lola
I pushed her away
I walked to the door
I fell to the floor
I got down on my knees
Then I looked at her and she at me

Well that's the way that I want it to stay
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world except for Lola
La-la-la-la Lola

Well I left home just a week before
And I'd never ever kissed a woman before
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand
And said little boy I'm gonna make you a man

Well I'm not the world's most masculine man
But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man
And so is Lola
La-la-la-la Lola la-la-la-la Lola
Lola la-la-la-la Lola la-la-la-la Lola


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 10:56 PM

I opened this thread and few others back when the Shrewsbury Folk Festival mess was getting traced back to the Yanks. Pffft! Lucy Long was a drag queen. American minstrels offended like M.C. Escher drew.

Not folk but still, kind of surprised no mention of Lou Reed in the thread.

Walk on the Wild Side

Holly came from Miami, F-L-A
Hitch-hiked her way across the U-S-A
Plucked her eyebrows on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
She says, "Hey babe
Take a walk on the wild side"
She said, "Hey honey
Take a walk on the wild side"

Candy came from out on the Island
In the backroom she was everybody's darlin'
But she never lost her head
Even when she was giving head
She says, "Hey babe
Take a walk on the wild side"
Said, "Hey babe
Take a walk on the wild side"

And the colored girls go:
"Doo do doo do doo do do doo, ..."

Little Joe never once gave it away
Everybody had to pay and pay
A hustle here and a hustle there
New York City's the place where
They said, "Hey babe
Take a walk on the wild side"
I said, "Hey Joe
Take a walk on the wild side"

Sugar Plum Fairy came and hit the streets
Lookin' for soul food and a place to eat
Went to the Apollo
You should've seen 'em go, go, go
They said, "Hey sugar
Take a walk on the wild side"
I said, "Hey babe
Take a walk on the wild side"

Jackie is just speeding away
Thought she was James Dean for a day
Then I guess she had to crash
Valium would have helped that bash
She said, "Hey babe
Take a walk on the wild side"
I said, "Hey honey
Take a walk on the wild side"

And the colored girls say:
"Doo do doo do doo do do doo, ..."


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 08:43 PM

Look a bit beyond Anglo-American culture? "Femminielli" in southern Italy, a tradition going back to antiquity:

http://www.naplesldm.com/femm.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8EUlcSY_UM

Songs associated with them are variants of the "tammuriata".


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:59 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFX77g-H-Uo


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 08:33 AM

From Walter Pardon
The The Dandy Man


When I was twenty years of age a-courting I did go,
All with a dandy barber's clerk, he filled my heart with woe,
I never ceased to rue the day when I became his wife,
He can't do right by day nor night, 'tis true upon my life.

Young women all, take my advice and mark what I do say,
If ever you wed with a dandy man you'll ever rue the day.

And when he goes to bed at night like an elephant he lays,
He never takes his britches off, he sleeps in women's stays,
His mouth is like a turnpike gate, his nose a yard and a half,
And if you saw his dandy legs I'm sure they'd make you laugh.

Young women all……………….            

It was upon last Christmas day, as true as I'm a sinner,
And as he stayed at home that day he swore he'd cook the dinner,
He took out all the plums and flour and mixed them in his hat,
And in the pot upon the lot, the rogue he boiled some fat.

Young women all………………..         

It was last Sunday morning, all by his own desire,
My leghorn bonnet and my cap he took to light the fire,
He took the tea things off the shelf to clean off all the dirt,
He washed them in the chamber pot and wiped them on his shirt.

Young women all…………………         

One day, when I was very ill he went to buy a fowl,
He bought a pair, I don't know where, a magpie and an owl,
He put them in the pot to boil tied in a dirty cloth,
He boiled the lot, all feathers and guts and called it famous broth.

Young women all………………………            

As we were walking up the street, 'twas arm in arm together,
It very first began to snow, he said, what rainy weather,
And if he saw a hackney coach he'd swear it was a gig,
He cannot tell, I do declare, a donkey from a pig.

Young women all……………………..

Now you may talk of dandy wives, but tell me if you can,
Where there's a dandy woman who can match a dandy man,
He's a dirty rogue and a lazy fool, and how I bless the day,
If they would send my dandy man straight off to Botany Bay.

Young women all take my advice and mark what I do say,
If ever you wed with a dandy man you'll ever rue the day.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:38 PM

Ive always had me doubts about Dainty Davey. and just how wild was the Wild Rover?


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Subject: Lyr Add: FOOLISH MAN BLUES
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 11:07 PM

FOOLISH MAN BLUES
As sung by Bessie Smith, 1927.

Men sure is deceitful; they getting worse every day. (2x)
Actin' like a bunch o' women, they just gabbin', gabbin', gabbin' away.

There's two things got me puzzled; there's two things I can't understand. (2x)
That's a mannish-actin' woman and a skippin' twistin' woman-actin' man.

Lord, I used to love that man; he always made my poor heart ache.
Yes, I love my man; he makes my poor heart ache.
He's crooked as a corkscrew and even as a copperheaded snake.

I knew a certain man who spent years runnin' a poor gal down.
I knew a certain man who spent a year runnin' a poor gal down.
And when she let him kiss her, the fool blabbed it all over town.


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Subject: Lyr Add: PROVE IT ON ME BLUES (Ma Rainey)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:40 PM

PROVE IT ON ME BLUES
As sung by Ma Rainey, 1928.

Went out last night, had a great big fight; everything seemed to go all wrong.
I looked up, to my surprise, the gal I was with was gone.
Where she went, I don't know; I mean to follow everywhere she goes.
Folks said I'm crooked; I didn't know where she took it; I want the whole world to know.

They say I do it; ain't nobody caught me; sure got to prove it on me.
Went out last night with a crowd of my friends.
They must have been women 'cause I don't like no mens.
It's true I wear a collar and a tie,
Make the wind blow all the while,
But they say I do it; ain't nobody caught me; they sure got to prove it on me.

They say I do it; ain't nobody caught me; sure got to prove it on me.
I went out last night with a crowd of my friends.
It must have been women 'cause I don't like no mens.
Wear my clothes just like a fan,
Talk to the gals just like any old man,
'Cause they say I do it; ain't nobody caught me; sure got to prove it on me.


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Subject: Lyr Add: B. D. WOMAN'S BLUES (Lucille Bogan)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM

"B. D." here stands for "bull dyke" or "bull dagger" which are both old African-American slang for lesbian, especially of the "butch" type.


B. D. WOMAN'S BLUES
As sung by Lucille Bogan, using the name Bessie Jackson, 1935.

Comin' a time, B. D. women they ain't going to need no men, (2x)
'Cause the way they treat us is a lowdown and dirty sin.

B. D. women, you sure can't understand. (2x)
They got a head like a sweet(?) angel and they walk just like a natural man.

B. D. women, they all done learnt their plan. (2x)
They can lay their jive just like a natural man.

B. D. women, B. D. women, you know they sure is rough. (2x)
They all drink up plenty whiskey and they sure will strut their stuff.

B. D. women, you know they work and make their dough, (2x)
And when they get ready to spend it, they know they have to go.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Claire M
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:01 PM

Hiya,

Love that song. I was terrified of Dory Previn's songs as a kid & still am!
Frequently teased about luv for certain female musicians, photos put under the duvet etc. I think it started because I admired them already.   I don't keep in touch with said lookalike but that's a good thing I think.

The stories I write seem to mostly have whoever's in trouble – a disabled woman, as I am – rescued by a woman who is both a singer & a sorceress, a sort of older folkie hippy woman. They say if you write it should be about what you know.

& because I've got a daft sense of humour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0DYjbn7r9I


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Some people have put forward the idea that Cockney Music Hall singer Harry Champion's song "Any Old Iron" was about Gays/Sads/Queers/Poofs or whatever word you use. "Iron" being rhyming slang for Poof (Iron Hoof).Apparently too green ties were at the time were a symbol of sexual orientation. I can't remember where I read the article but it seemd to be quite convincing.

Has anybody so far mentined the old song where it starts out "Daisy, Daisy give me your answer do" and finishes "But you'd look sweet upon the seat of a bisexual built for two"?

Hoot


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:52 PM

Loads of cross-dressing songs in the tradition - don't know whether they are what you are looking for - never sure about 'My Husband's Got No Courage in Him.'.
Walter Pardon's Dandy Man might be of interest to you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM

from a great musician...who is history

GfS


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 08:45 AM

A little obscure maybe but Tim Buckley, on his 1973 album "Sefronia" did a version of "Sally Go 'Round the Roses" in which he changed the line: "Sally don't you go - don't you go downtown/ Because the saddest thing in the whole wide world is to see your baby with another girl," to: "Oh Sally don't you go down - Oh darlin' don't you go down/ Honey the saddest thing in the whole wide world/ Is to find your woman been with another girl"


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:47 AM

Gus Cannon's Walk Right In had a Bi-sexual reference


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:16 PM

Mention of "Frankie and Johnny" reminded me of Stripey and Blondie.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Claire M
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM

Hiya,

Apologies for daft song. It wasn't meant to be totally serious. Love the 'Sissy Man' one!

I think I might look at life from both sides -– a couple of years ago I was frequently mistaken for a man, (!) & my admiration for certain female musicians is well-known. I've "come over all unnecessary" hearing their voices.

I met a lookalike of one once. Despite knowing it wasn't the real thing, stupid me couldn't string a sentence together. She thought I was a bit weird, going red & stumbling over my words & melting away, but was unaware as to why.

I've crossed over too, & while I don't miss who it happened with because they were horrible, I do miss the experience itself – I'm glad it happened because I probably wouldn't get the opportunity now.   It was certainly physically easier than the other sort, although a bit embarrassing.

Maybe because I moved out late due to disability, feelings that I would've either come to terms with or boxed up & forgot about have come back again. So I may nearly be 30 but I still feel like a teen, although a lot of people say I seem older.
Ooh, me back!


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 06:29 PM

I own a compilation LP called "Straight and Gay" put out by Stash Records in 1979. It contains the following:

Toothache Blues (1928)
Anybody Here Want to Try My Cabbage (1924)
Take Your Hand Off It (1937)
I'm Gonna Keep My Hair Parted (1938)
I'm a Mighty Tight Woman (1926)
Gas Man Blues (1929)
Black Snake Blues (1926)
I Got What It Takes (1931)

Somebody's Been Using That Thing (1930)
Shave Em Dry (1925)
Sissy Man (1935)
Sissy Blues (1926)
Two Old Maids in a Folding Bed (1936)
Rollin' Mama Blues (1932)
Windy City Blues (1941)
Stew Meat Blues (1935)


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:24 PM

Read every post and there was no mention of the groudbreaking LP entitled 'Gay And Straight Together'. It was a compilation vinyl 33rpm recording on Ginny Clemons' 'Open Door' records. Was subsequently purchased by Folkways Records and was selected by The Smithsonian Institute as a historically significant recording. It 's available on CD. There are about 12-14 cuts on it as I recall. Many of which were recorded at Marge Summitt's club 'His 'n Hers". The recording was done by Rich Warren of WFMT-Chicago. It's very much worth a listen. Some of the cuts are a bit rough, but the overall spirit of the project far outweighed any technical or performance lack.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 02:16 PM

One I would like to know more about:

There's a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach
Alas, I cannot swim


which was apparently sung by British troops in Afghanistan in the 19th century, to the chorus of the tune known in pipe tune books as "The Pathan War March" aka "Zachmi Dil" ("The Wounded Heart"), and probably more familiar around here as "The Quartermaster's Store". It's quoted in Lewis Winstock's "Songs and Music of the Redcoats", and I've come across it elsewhere (maybe in a book by John Masters?). But I've never come across any other words, have no idea what the Pushtun text is, and know nothing further about its history.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Claire M
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 12:59 PM

Hiya,

It's like me going to a group where we're all disabled. We might get on, we might be best mates, or we might hate each other. Same as if we met. The good thing is those sort of groups introduce you to people you'd never have got to know otherwise.

I always wondered why some singers don't change the pronouns. I love the 'Frankie & Johnny' reference – I mentioned a recent trip to Frankie & Benny's (love the shakes) & dad started singing "Frankie & Benny were sweethearts'

Here's one:

***********************************************************
I went to a gig with me true love one night
my friends they made some comments, what if they were right ??
& where I was going, I didn't know where
Looked forward to it, as I sat in my chair

My colour was red, my face like a rose
My love, bored s***less, sat picking his nose
I heard the song she was singing, I felt sae sair
that her song wasn't for me, to her I wasn't there

My friend said you look queer, would you rather go
& what I was thinking, they never shall know
Oh, my love he looked at her, it's loud he did sigh
& under me breath so also did I

When the concert it finished "what a shame" I did say
I had no idea things would turn out this way
Since that night my eyes sparkle, friends they do tease
"play her that song she likes, she's bound to be pleased"
I ain't told my love yet, thank God he's good & kind
& he's pretty laid-back so I'm sure he won't mind

*****************************************************************


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Melani
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:44 AM

Re: Liam's Brother--Hannah Snell: A friend of mine has written a song about Mary Lacy, another woman who spent a number of years in the Royal Navy disguised as a man, in the late 1700's. In the autobiographical sketch she later wrote, she mentions being very popular with the ladies and having a number of girlfriends. It's obvious where her interests lay, but it's also hard to conceive that all those various lady friends had no idea she was a woman. With any luck, my friend will be recording it soon.

Anyone who's interested in that particular subject should check out a book called "Female Tars" by Suzanne Stark.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 09:46 PM

You are not one of his, I betcha.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 09:35 PM

Hi Paul. My info came from an obituary of the late Jack McGann. Several folk-oriented performers were mentioned in it. Sorry if it was inaccurate. You're still one of my favourite writers though.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:36 AM

Gee, Where was I when this thread came alone at first?
Richard Bridge - I am racking my brains, and at first try, I think you are right, I can't think of a traditional (and old) song about being gay, and to Jeri. - I don't think Dame Durdan is the one, as Humphry with his flail comes up as part of the list separate to the kissing verce. As to modern writiers in a traditional vien who write about Gay issues, a friend of mine from Belfast, Turloch, has written some extrodinaraly good songs, and I will try and get him to post a few. He sings one, your daughters and your sons, which he either wrote or reworked a bit, which is a very fine job.
Bulldog - if you are still there. I believe the reson for harsher sentencing is not to extend special rights, and anyone who thinks any minority other than the rich have special rights in Canada or the US or most other places, might want to have a cup of tea and a good think for awhile. The reason for harsher sentencing in hate crimes is to end the practice of jurys for giving token sentences for crimes against certain suspect classes for discrimination, such as is happening in the Chezh Repulic where the average sentence for killing Roma (Gypsies) is from about four to six months.
All the best all,
Larry


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: GUEST,Paul Siebel
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 11:03 PM

This discussion group has just been brought to my attention. I don't know this Rick Fielding guy is and I have no idea where he gets his information about who is gay and who is not or why he could possibly get his jollies by spreading lies about me. Maybe he's gay.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 02:55 AM

Thanks to Emily, the B/S continues HERE


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 02:52 AM

Thanks to Rick, the songs continue HERE


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 10:10 PM

Thanks, Charlie, I had forgotten about that amazing couple of scenes between Antonio and Sebastian, and how right you are. I guess my point was that Shakespeare pushes the well-known Italian convention to the breaking point and beyond. By the time you have worked out who is what, gender strictness loses its power over you somewhat, and is replaced by the mystery of attraction. There is also the barely suppressed love of the Duke for Viola as a boy/man, echoed by the Antonio/Sebastian relationship! What a play! (and now, back to the music).
yours, PeterT.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 09:26 PM

Don't know about old ones, but when we were in Massachusetts in the 1980's, "We Are Family" was very much THE song for the lesbigay community.

Hey, emily rain started a new thread, "Gay Community - 100% BS"

kat


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 09:00 PM

I have asked at a couple of clubs where there were well informed people. No-one yet has been able to come up with a gay traditional song. Nor has anyone on this thread. It looks as if the oldest anyone can find dates from about the 20s. (1920s)


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Folksie Lady
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 08:32 PM

I heartily concur with you, Susanne, about Judy Small's songwriting and singing abilities. I hadn't known she was lesbian, but her songs cover the entire spectrum of women's lives and I really appreciate that.

Also would want to recommend Carol McCombs, now recording on Kalaidescope Records. She was part of the mid-60s duo Kathy & Carol but is now soloing or part of other endeavors.

Folksie


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Subject: Lyr Add: NO TEARS FOR THE WIDOW^^ ONE VOICE IN..^^
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 07:06 PM

I'm sorry I've come late to this thread, due to being away and reading long threads offline in order to keep my telephone bill down. I just didn't expect such a lively, frank and personal discussion under this heading. Everything I might have said has been said already, I think - mainly by katlaughing, Rose and Big Mick, and most recently by Jeri.

Just one thing: I can only speak from personal experience, of course, but I can't agree with the view that the 'gay community' is exclusive. Despite being heterosexual, I (and my mother, and others) have accompanied my gay friends to many places: gay bars, gay gatherings, gay porn cinemas and parks, because I wanted to learn about this part of their world, and they and their friends seemed to feel comfortable with me around. They, in turn, have gone to folk concerts with me. They've told me about their love affairs as I've told them about mine. (No longer, to be honest, but that's more a matter of not having l.a.s to talk about any more ...)

Great song, Roger! Yes, the words are familiar to me. Martin Niemφller wrote them as leader of the tiny part of the German Protestant church speaking out against the Nazis, calling themselves the Confessional Church.

I'm surprised, though, that Judy Small hasn't been mentioned in this thread. I first saw her at Tonder Festival in Denmark, where she told the audience as a matter of fact that she and her partner, Sue, had spent the past week travelling round Denmark and how much they'd loved it. She has written some wonderful songs about women, but only one I know is openly about lesbians, and to my mind it highlights a very pertinent problem.

NO TEARS FOR THE WIDOW

I never saw my mother cry until the night my father died
Married nearly thirty years and the dying had been hard
I remember how the family came to share the grief the tears the pain
And how her friends all gathered round and all the black-rimmed cards

The funeral was a large affair, the civic fathers all were there
And mother held up stoically, she never shed a tear
But everyone there understood that she had entered widow-hood
And life would never be the same, her status now was clear

And there were tears for the widow, tears for the widow
For the woman who had lost her love and must carry on alone
And mother now writes 'widow' in the space on all the forms
It's part of her identity, like her grey hair and her name

My friend Amelia lost her love to cancer's slow and painful glove
The dying was no easier than my father's was back then
No black-rimmed cards came to her door, her grief and anguish all ignored
Except of course for closest friends who tried to understand

Her lover was described by all as a single woman living well
A tragic loss for family, taken well before her time
When Amy left the funeral home she travelled to their house alone
And sat among familiar things and wept into the night

And there were no tears for the widow, no tears for the widow
For the woman who had lost her love and must carry on alone
And Amy still writes 'single' in the space on all the forms
But she rages at the lie it tells and the loss that it ignores

And who can tell how many women live their lives in shadows
Unrecognised, unsympathised, unseen and disallowed
Who've lost not only lovers, but often hearth and home
For 'marriage' is a special word and only meant for some

And there are no tears for the widows, no tears for the widows
For the women who've lost lovers and must carry on alone
And life goes on but for them there is no space on any form
Yes 'marriage' is a special word and only meant for some

And while I'm at it, this is a song relevant, I feel, to this thread:

ONE VOICE IN THE CROWD

I've lived a life of privilege, I've never known what hunger is

I've never laboured with my hands except to play guitar
Middle class my middle name, life's been more or less a game
But in the end it's all the same, the buck stops where you are

And we are foolish people who do nothing
Because we know how little one person can do
Yes we are foolish people who do nothing
Because we know how little one can do

It's not my issue, not my scene, I've got to get my own house clean
I keep it neat and tidy just in case the Queen should call
Come back to me another day and gladly I'll join in, we say
And I'm just one voice anyway, just one brick in the wall

One brick in the wall you may be, one voice in the crowd
But without you we are weaker and our song may not be heard
One drop in the ocean, but each drop will swell the tide
So be your one brick in the wall, be one voice in the crowd

And we are foolish people who do nothing
Because we know how little one person can do
Yes we are foolish people who do nothing
Because we know how little one can do


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 03:33 PM

The gender confusion in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night alluded to by Peter T a couple of posts above might or might not be indicative of bisexuality--after all, boys playing women were a theatre convention of the time, and gender farces were another established tradition. BUT, in Twelfth Night, there is a relationship between Antonio and Seabstian that seems to me to be clearly a gay love (or at least lust on Antonio's part), and is rendered so poignantly and realistically that Shakespeare must have been, if not "screamingly" bisexual, at least able to understand and feel the [early 17th Century's equivalent of a] gay point of view. Of course, there's a sad ending to the affair, as Antonio is led away for piracy and Sebastian can't/won't come to his defense, but that's probably realistic given Elizabethan attitudes.

--Charlie Baum

(Returning you to folk music, after this brief lit-crit interrruption)


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 03:07 PM

This B/S appears to matter a lot to me so I will say it, whether you read it or not is up to you.

It is possible for anyone with imagination to understand perfectly well how someone else might feel, even if they have no first hand knowledge of that situation. Throughout history, the artists in all of the art forms have demonstrated this. Some would argue that this is the sole purpose of art.

It is also possible for white, males to be also members of many minority groups and therefore to understand exactly what that means. There are many minority groups that are not based only on race, gender and sexual preference and are we not all in a minority group of one?

The minority group I referred to earlier, those with disabilities, have struggled to shake off scorn, rejection and prejudice and though there is still a long way to go have largely succeeded in being accepted as the same as everyone else, by society. Which is clearly what they want and they have made they perfectly clear to society.

However if and when they have finally done this, unfortunately the individuals will still have their disabilities.

I contrast this with 'the gay society, scene, community sub-culture', which I have a problem with, not gay people, which I do not..

This grouping only exists as a reaction to society's inability to accept and support gay people. So gay people group together and support each other. I don't have a problem with that either, if it is a temporary position on the way to full integration.

Gay people are not disabled, they are not cursed and they are not blessed either. The actual difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals (and all points in between) is a very small one indeed. It is something that I think can get overlooked by all. The longer this present situation continues however the bigger that difference appears to be, the gap widens and that is what concerns me.

I honestly believe that society is generally pretty much ready now to accept gay people and couples. I do not think that it quite so ready to accept 'gay society', but then why should it, for 'gay society' excludes them?

From my own personal experience 'the gay community' is a very attractive place to be, for those that have never felt there belonged anywhere, this is quite understandable. It is safe and it appears to provide most if not quite all of the answers...... It is not however a faith or a religion or an end in itself.If society were ever to fully accept gay people there would be no need for such a grouping. Which I can understand seems to be a pretty scary proposition for some?

It is very important to decide what it is you want and to ensure that society is clear what that is.

I feel we have come to a cross-roads. When we come to the point where we are, or are proposing more legislation especially for and of behalf of the 'gay community' and for all the right reasons.

The important thing to note however is when objections and reservations are coming from those who have been in support and where you would expect to be supported. We have seen a few of them here and they are not from 'the usual suspects' but from people who care. It would be wise to listen to their concerns and resist the temptation to railroad them.

For it is the support of all the people, that is needed. It would be folly to alienate them/us.

If I have polarised things here, I am sorry, for it is that polarisation on all issues, everywhere that I am most against................. I just try my best..........If you cannot understand what I am trying to say because of the way I have expressed it, give me the benefit of the doubt and ask, please don't assume the worst. Judge me by what I say and not by what you think I am saying or because you suspect some sinister hidden motive.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 11:39 AM

Shambles: no pretence, no artifices; many people who know me will tell you, what you see, hear, read is what you get. I have no issues with control. (That's one thing I love about the Mudcat, it is so egalitarian.) If you choose to believe otherwise and read hidden agendas into everything I write that is your problem, not mine. Enough other people who've posted on here seem to have understood my genuine interest in the music.

When somebody brings up a subject that I feel strongly on, then I am bound to voice my opinion and/or experience. I am a person of strong convictions and have always been know to stand by them, no matter how painful or dangerous. For you to suggest otherwise is, I suspect, a bait you dangle, which I refuse to bite.

To bad you have apparently felt so uncomfortable about this discussion. It seems there are a lot of us who feel it is needed and has been intertesting.

You may want to understand, as you say, but to say the songs get in the way sounds facetious or sarcastic, esp. here on the Mudcat. We've recently had threads on how the BS got in the way of the songs. Now we have songs getting in the way of the BS???

Thanks, Jeri.

kat, flaming control freak!:-)


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 10:43 AM

Shambles, "pretence that this thread was ever entirely about songs!?"

I do believe when she asked about music, that's what she wanted to know. My perception is that the first person to mention "the gay community" and "alternative lifestyles" is the one who wanted to discuss them. It wasn't Kat - it was you. The evidence, yer honor

Her request might have looked like bait to you, but it looked like a request for songs to me. Your post, OTOH, was screaming "bite here." Perhaps you should have started/start the new thread.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 08:59 AM

LEJ,
well, maybe lyrically screaming. What interests me about Shakespeare's bisexuality was the way he latched on to the possibilities of the "boy actors playing girls" theme and does hundreds of variations on them. In Twelfth Night, for example, you have a boy actor playing a woman, disguised as a man, being chased by a boy actor playing a woman believing that the man she (he) is chasing is a woman, when he(she) is really a man (woman) (man)!!!
Keats referrred to Shakespeare's ability to empathise with different forms of life (and lifestyle) from his own as "negative capability". I suspect his bisexuality had a lot to do with it. Yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 02:29 AM

Kat

I have read Dons post and coments about your and Roses's thesis.

I have been trying in this thread to find out EXACTLY what that thesis is.

I think it would be better if you took the courage of your convictions and started a thread for that, rather than one where you could return to the cover of the pretence that this thread was ever entirely about songs, every time the subject matter theatens to slip from your control.

I do geniunely what to understand but here the songs are getting in the way.


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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 01:18 AM

I'm still reeling over the description of William Shakespeare as a screaming bi-sexual. Now I know old Will wasn't exactly a lumberjack, and I can deal with him being a run-of-the-mill Elizabethan Lothario working both sides of the fence while cranking out the greatest writing of all time, but a Screaming bisexual? Say it ain't so!

Regarding hate crimes legislation, I think there is a reasonable middle ground. Assault, harassment, blackmail etc. would be reasonable areas where sexual-orientation should be considered in the trial and sentencing of a crime, but I believe that the ultimate crime of murder is the most heinous act that can be committed by an individual, and I don't think that calling it a "hate crime" makes it a more grievous act. The facts in each case should be considered just as they are now, where mitigating factors or exceptional viciousness are considered in the severity of sentencing.

A hypothetical scenario: A straight man and a gay man are involved in a barroom brawl, in which the gay man is struck with a beer bottle and dies of his injuries. In traditional law this would be a fairly obvious case of manslaughter- might there not exist the possibility that, with the emplacement of Hate Crimes Legislation, pressure might be exerted publicly and legally to try and convict for murder and civil rights abridgement?

LEJ


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