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How ethnically diverse are we?

katlaughing 03 Jun 99 - 01:14 AM
SingsIrish Songs 03 Jun 99 - 01:27 AM
campfire 03 Jun 99 - 01:36 AM
Mudjack 03 Jun 99 - 01:42 AM
Bonedaddy 03 Jun 99 - 01:46 AM
jets 03 Jun 99 - 02:01 AM
bseed(charleskratz) 03 Jun 99 - 02:23 AM
The Shambles 03 Jun 99 - 03:00 AM
Roger the zimmer 03 Jun 99 - 03:57 AM
KingBrilliant 03 Jun 99 - 05:06 AM
Roger in Baltimore 03 Jun 99 - 06:06 AM
Neil Lowe 03 Jun 99 - 06:56 AM
Philippa 03 Jun 99 - 08:41 AM
Bert 03 Jun 99 - 09:24 AM
annamill 03 Jun 99 - 09:44 AM
katlaughing 03 Jun 99 - 09:51 AM
Bert 03 Jun 99 - 10:23 AM
Neil Lowe 03 Jun 99 - 10:33 AM
Steve Latimer 03 Jun 99 - 10:37 AM
Fadac 03 Jun 99 - 10:57 AM
tomtom 03 Jun 99 - 11:04 AM
Margo 03 Jun 99 - 11:16 AM
Margo 03 Jun 99 - 11:31 AM
Rick Fielding 03 Jun 99 - 11:33 AM
Bert 03 Jun 99 - 11:35 AM
tomtom 03 Jun 99 - 11:44 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 03 Jun 99 - 11:57 AM
Neil Lowe 03 Jun 99 - 01:11 PM
catspaw49 03 Jun 99 - 01:22 PM
katlaughing 03 Jun 99 - 01:30 PM
katlaughing 03 Jun 99 - 01:33 PM
Fadac 03 Jun 99 - 01:39 PM
Neil Lowe 03 Jun 99 - 02:21 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Jun 99 - 02:24 PM
annamill 03 Jun 99 - 03:02 PM
Margo 03 Jun 99 - 04:05 PM
annamill 03 Jun 99 - 04:16 PM
Fadac 03 Jun 99 - 04:19 PM
Mike Billo 03 Jun 99 - 04:52 PM
annamill 03 Jun 99 - 05:02 PM
Mike Billo 03 Jun 99 - 05:11 PM
LEJ 03 Jun 99 - 05:19 PM
bbc 03 Jun 99 - 06:22 PM
katlaughing 03 Jun 99 - 06:32 PM
Fadac 03 Jun 99 - 06:33 PM
katlaughing 03 Jun 99 - 06:44 PM
Fadac 03 Jun 99 - 07:04 PM
John OSh 03 Jun 99 - 07:06 PM
MudGuard 03 Jun 99 - 07:07 PM
katlaughing 03 Jun 99 - 07:43 PM
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Subject: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:14 AM

I was talking to a friend the other day and wondering how much diversity we have among us, as far as ethnic background goes. I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable. I know we have many who have some Native American heritage. I am wondering what other backgrounds there might be among us.

For anonymity, one can change their cookie, and post just their ethnic background; or, be "out" about it if you are comfortable. Or, tell me it's a lot of BS and to P%#@ off! **Big grin**

I am from Scottish, Irish, English and Native American background, which I suspect will probably be the prevailing trend around here, No Offense Intended!

Thanks,

katlaughing, curiosity may kill the Kat, but it also keeps her coming back!


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:27 AM

Heh katlaughing!

I am your typical "American mutt", Right arm and brains are Irish, left arm German...seriously, Irish, German, Ukrainian, with some Dutch and English thrown in for extra flavour (so the story goes).

It would be interesting to see (especially with those from the "melting pot") if one's personal ethnicity affected the type of music each is interested in...I, at an early age, became interested with Irish music. Then German/Bavarian/Austrian...then in my college days when I took music more seriously, I dabbled into Ukrainian music (listening only) and other Celtic stuff...I suppose if I hear a song and I like it, I am willing to try more of the same. In the last few years, for instance, I've been to Greek festivals and have become enthralled with Greek dance. It is interesting to me that lots of tunes I have always loved (ie old standards) are of English origin.......

That should just about do it for me!

Mary who Sings Irish songs.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: campfire
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:36 AM

Kat, I doubt many of the non-US-'Catters have much Native American heritage - but then, I may be wrong.

I've always considered myself a "mutt" - a rather honogeneous blend of a similar mixture of bloodlines on both sides of the family. As it ends up I'm about 1/2 a mixture of English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish background, more than 1/4 "Scandanavian", mostly Norwegian but some Danish and possibly Finnish; and the little less than 1/4 is an unknown, but likely has Germanic influences, and yes, there is rumour of Native Americans back there somewhere, too.

My geneology is somewhat compromised by an adopted great grandfather, but, while he was still alive, his "real" sisters found him. But my grandmother would get confused when asked about the family, blending her father's birth family's with his adopted family's background.

My father's side is where the music comes from - can't say which "part".

campfire


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Mudjack
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:42 AM

1/2 Okie and 1/2 Missourian. That translates to about 2 parts indian, 2 parts scot, 2 parts welch, 2 parts irish and since I love Mexican food so well, 2 parts mexican.Since I was born in California I was once told I was CIO. California Improved Okie
Mj


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Bonedaddy
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:46 AM

Well, since you were kind enough to ask... I think from what I've been able to put together My family was primarily Dutch and English though I pretty much just claim to be a Floridian.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: jets
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 02:01 AM

100% Arcadian French but I play and love Finnish music


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 02:23 AM

German with a bit of Scotch-Irish on my father's side (and he was born in Oklahoma); Scotch-Irish on my mother's side: she was born beneath the Mountains of Mourne-- in Moneyderra (sp?), Analong, Belfast. Related to Chinese Gordon through my mother's mother. Ethnically white-bread but never eat the crap (except sourdough). Maybe about one 32nd American Indian on my Father's side--I believe I heard words to that effect in my youth. Married to a Japanese woman, have a happa son. Used to prefer brown rice, but now eat white almost exclusively. Musically diverse but Appalachian and African American greatest influences. Have ethnically diverse Labrador retrievers: one black, one reddish yellow. --seed


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 03:00 AM

Very.

I am of the opinion that we should refer to ourselves as MIXED RACE, for that is what we ALL are.

My grandfather was Polynesian and that is about the 'purest' blood that is in me, as the rest of my European make-up is very mixed-up and unclear.

Is it is not more important where we go, than where we come from?


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 03:57 AM

One Irish grandfather born in India, the rest English. educated partly in Wales, drink French wine and Greek brandy, confirmed Hellenophile.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 05:06 AM

Pretty much pure-bred Berkshire English - both parents from country families which didn't move around much. (Though there is a rumour of some 'noble' blood via a serving maid...) In contrast to the very conservative bloodline, I like pretty much any traditional music of whatever ethnic persuasion. My husband has German, Welsh, Romany & English blood in varying quantities - and has much the same musical taste.

- but it would be nice to think that the music we feel most 'connected to' touches some sort of ancestral race memory. So - Although I suspect that the grandfather who was 'found on the doorstep' was actually of very local origin, perhaps I'll choose to believe him an exotic & diverse mix (after all, my mum does have very high cheekbones for a Batts Green girl..)

- Kris


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:06 AM

On my father's side, I am fifth generation German immigrant. Balthasar and Cunnigunda fled Germany and arrived in Carroll County in 1850. On my mother's side, I am second generation Swedish.

I have no sense that these influence my music or any other behavior. Although my maternal grandparents were native Swedes, they seldom spoke Swedish and, aside from drinking, did not celebrate any obvious Swedish customs. And on my father's side, there were no hints of Germanic ancestry except for my last name.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:56 AM

From those in my family who are interested in these things, they say we are Melungeon.....the next time I respond to one of those forms that asks such things that is what I'm going to write down.....ought to spawn some curiosity.

I am also married to a Panamanian, so I guess that makes our kids PanAmericans....at least that's what I claim when I have to respond to questions about their ethnicity.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Philippa
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 08:41 AM

So what is a Melungeon?
I didn't know until a few weeks ago, when I was doing research on Tamazight (Berber/Amaghzien language of N Africa) and came across this article

See also: melungeon home page
The search even led me to the Lumbee history page where you can click to get some Musical History (lubee hymn singing etc)


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 09:24 AM

English mostly, which is really another term for mutt. One eighth Irish from Great Grandmother Mary Ann Cronin from County Cork.
Brown hair and grey eyes so most likely some Celtic ancestry. Red hair runs strongly in my Mother's family so I would like to think that she was descended from Boudicca. But that is just wishful thinking.
I tan very easily so it is likely that there is s touch of the 'tar brush' in there somewhere. Actually when slavery was abolished in England the whole black population disappeared in the space of about 100 years. They just intermarried and were absorbed into the whole population.

Regarding cultural influences outside of the British Isles. As a teenager I was very involved with American Square dancing. That, along with Lonnie Donnegan got me started on American Traditional music.
I also did a lot of International Folk Dancing, My preferences were French and Balkan.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 09:44 AM

Good morning,

I'm German, Irish, and Italian. My mom was from Greenville, SC and had the German, Irish extraction. My Dad was actually from Italy, but he was only 3 months when he got to our wonderful shores. He baked bread for a living. My Grandfather was a shoemaker, not repair man, a shoe maker. I always thought that was great. My mom says she can trace our ancestry back to the Virginia colony. My Mom and Dad met while he was in the Army and she was in the Navy during WWII.

annap


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 09:51 AM

Thank you everyone. Shambs, yes it is more important where we are going. My concern was to find out if we were mostly a "white bread" lot and if so, if there are any people of colour, if they feel welcome or sort of shut out.

My son-in-law, who is from Antigua, told me when I was going to be a grandmother, that they were going to have "zebra" children, 1/2 black 1/2 white; my daughter says, too, we are all of the humanrace.

I think the more the mix, the better. I live with a first generation American-French Canadian with some Native American thrown. And, you want to talk mixed races among the critters?! I've got just about every colour of cat ever thought of, a "zebra" border collie, etc.

The Story of English was on PBS years ago. It was fascinating for me as it traced the roots of my US Western heritage back through the Scots/Irish/English etc. settlers of America. In a similar was I believe the music I grew up hearing was influenced. But, we were NEVER limited to any one kind. I love music from many different cultures, as do my children.

Thanks, again.

kat


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 10:23 AM

Yep, We're a mixed up lot and proud of it!


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 10:33 AM

Philippa,

Your blue clicky thing "this article" was interesting, as was "So what is a Melungeon?" thanks. My uncle loaned me a book some years back by an author who had traced his Melungeon heritage- it might have been written by the selfsame Dr. Kennedy. The name sounds vaguely familiar as regards Melungeon themes.

Regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 10:37 AM

My Father emigrated from Dublin Ireland, my mother is from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and her family (McLean) had been there for as long as anyone could remember. Anyone familiar with Cape Breton will know that a lot of the Scottish bloodlines there are purer (for lack of a better word) than in Scotland. I believe that the Irish music that my grandfather passed down to my dad and my uncles combined with my mother's East Coast tastes gave me the love of traditional acoustic music.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Fadac
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 10:57 AM

My mothers side is from Switzerland, (sp?) However the name is very English/Scottish. So I claim membership in the MacFarlane Clan and wear that tarton at Scottish events. However there was an adopted GGGfather in there too. However we just assume that adoption is fine as far as the name goes. In the old clan system, they did a lot of adopting. Father side, well, he claimed to be 1/2 Inidan, however his mother would never register or even talk to the tribe. He would tell stories about these aunts that would come around and make him drink all these wierd tonics. He hated that and would go hide in the woods when they showed up. Now for the wierd part. The last name is Howard. That is a big name in England. (Mary Howard had her head chopped off by King Henery VIII.) Well, Mary wasn't the only Howard killd by that king. There was a Sheriff of London, named Howard, that objected to his relitive (Mary) getting the axe. So he got his head lopped off too. Now if you compair a picture of this Howard and my father side by side. They could be brothers. So I think the name stayed true. We don't know who was the first Howard to come over in this line, but we think he was more than likly a horse thief running from the law. That would fit in with what I know of that side of the family, Cops or Robbers. They seemed to swing from side to side.

So, If my father was 1/2 Indian, does that make me 1/4 or 1/8?


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: tomtom
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 11:04 AM

I'm not so sure about "the more mixed up the better." My father is Indian--from India, not Native American. And my mother is as WASP-y as a WASP can be. In fact, I have a direct relative that came over on the Mayflower. It's not such an easy thing to be the "product" (for lack of a better word) of two radically different cultures. I think it's difficult for racially mixed parents to raise children because there are so many cultural rubbing points. Maybe my case is a bit extreme since my father lived in India until he was 32, but I think inevitably there will be strain in a racially mixed household, even if it's not discussed out in the open. My parents have done a pretty remarkable job of keeping things together. Hell, they've been married for 32 years. But not without a lot of . . . compromise.

I also think there's something to be said for having some kind of cultural identity. I'm not white, which immediately makes me a bit of an outsider in the good ole USofA--though usually people think I'm Italian, Middle Eastern, Latin American, etc. And I'm, of course, not Indian. I've spent a few years of my life there, and feel a real affinity to the place, but I don't speak my father's South Indian dialect well, and I don't exactly look Indian. It's not so nice feeling slightly out of step everywhere you go.

Having said all that, I wouldn't change my situation for anything. I've grown to see it as a blessing, though it has taken a long time. Many very rascist people use the old "it's hard on the children" excuse to justify there rascist stance on interracial marriages. 99 out of 100 times, a person who says something like that doesn't give a damn about the children. In fact, usually, they're the ones who are most inclined to treat a racially mixed child as an outcast. I don't want to fuel their fire, but there is a kernal of truth in their uniformed opinion.

I'm not challenging Kat's love of and faith in cultural diversity at all. My existence depends on it. I just thought I'd be a grump and stir things up a bit.

tomtom


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Margo
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 11:16 AM

I'm not sure how to address this. My family on both sides is Jewish. My Father's side came out of Russia and spread all over Europe. My dad was born in Bulgaria as was his dad. My grandmother was born in Turkey. His parents were first cousins. His great grandfather was tailor to the sultan of Turkey. (a few stories there)

My mother's dad was born in Ukraine. They tell me that his wife, my grandma, was Pennsylvania Deutch but her maiden name was Swartz. My other Grandmother's maiden name was Swarz. My mom was born in Pittsburgh PA.

I suppose I'm Jewish mutt. But I consider myself Christian! (That should excite Jews for Jesus)

Margarita nee Margaret Eve Rosenstein


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Margo
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 11:31 AM

Tomtom, your post came in while I was writing mine. While I was single, I told God that I would marry whoever he sent me, whether he was black, yellow or whatever color. Bald or fuzzy, short or tall, fat or thin.

So I end up marrying Mr.White. He is white, as I am. But I hate calling myself "white" because as you can see above, my heritage is so varied. It irks me when I am lumped in the great catagory of "white people" which implies that I have some sort of attitude towards people of other color. It's a form of discrimination.

Has anyone experienced discrimination because of being "white"?

Margarita


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 11:33 AM

Well, I can't help remembering Tony Hancock's outrage at being asked about his blood type in the classic skit "The Blood Donor" "English, English! Twenty generations, with perhaps a touch of Viking thrown in!"
As much as I wish I could claim some more exotic roots, I'm 3rd generation Canadian, with English ancestors. Did a "roots check" a few years ago and found that I am definitely the under-achiever in the Fielding line. Long history of public servants, ie. mayors, councillors, and university grads.
The name, although it sounds common enough, was actually easy to trace, and we seem to have a couple of notables way back when. "Henry", of course wrote Tom Jones, and he was related to Dickens. Also there was a "hanging" judge back there in the 1600s.
Gotta figure that the best of the lot was "Bill", my dad though. From Coboconk Ont. He was a Jazz musician, pharmacist, WW11 overseas vet from '39 to 44, sales mgr. for Schering, and as I found out for years after his death, respected and liked by everyone he met.
Sorry to digress Kat, but this got me thinkin' about him.
rick


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 11:35 AM

Well tomtom, you're not an outsider here, you're one of us. But if things have been hard at times we'll let you be a bit of a grump now and then. Just don't take advantage of it.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: tomtom
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 11:44 AM

Margarita,

I didn't mean to imply that "whites are rascist." I'm not exactly sure what I said to make you think I was implying this gross generalization. But not being white in America has caused me a lot of hassles. I can't remember a time when I haven't gotten the old "shake-down" in customs coming back to the states.

I was just trying to present the other side of the coin with cultural diversity.

tomtom


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 11:57 AM

I saw a documentary last night (in the UK) about Black Power groups in NYC, with a slot on Khallid Muhammed - scared me sh*tless, I can tell you. Good luck to you all over there... Fadac, are you listening? I think you may be right after all...


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:11 PM

Margarita,

White, black, blue....doesn't matter. If you're male and have a pony tail half way down your back and walk into a working class bar on a payday Friday afternoon in August you're taking your life into your own hands for being either 'queer,' a blank blank 'hippie,' or both.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:22 PM

Unless you're wearing a sleeveless T-shirt and have arms that look like freakin' eggplants and a general appearance that's a cross between Joe Palooka and the Wandering Jew...............

Ethnically, my Dad was half German and half Italian, and my Mom was straight English on both sides with roots tracing back to the Isle of Wight and Cornwall. Not too entertaining...........

catspaw


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:30 PM

Rick, no need to apologise about digressing, esp. when it's about your da. This thread is about all of that and more and whatever else anyone wants to add in.

Tomtom, thank you for your postings. I suspect my grandsons will have similiar experiences, here, in America, although they live in CT, in an area where there is a lot of racial diversity. My daughter and son-in-law live in a four-plex. Besides themselves, there is a couple from Cuba; and an African American family. In the entire apt. complex there are many Puerto Rican families and more from the West Indies. They feel pretty comfortable there.

My mother was one of those people who said I hope they don't plan on chldren becaus eof the way they will be treated. She was NOT a racist, though, just very concerned. Nothing could have made her happier than to have twin grandsons born and she really enjoyed every minute of knowing about them before she passed away. My only regret is that she never actually got to hold them or see them in person.

I know what you mena baout customs, though. Even though they are comfortable, my son-in-law does notice not so subtle actions on the part of security guards and such. When he goes to WalMart, certain guards always put their hands on the guns when they see him, as he is BIG and A very deep colour of mahoganny. If the cops stop him when he is alone in the car, they ask him who owns it; when my white daughter drives it, they ask for the registration. A lot of assumptions are being made, probably wihtout too much thought.

Anyone here have ancestors in Pugwash County, Nova Scotia? Fountains, Crawfords, Ralstons, Sutherlands? My grandma was a Crawford. How about any Ewings in Scotland?

Maybe I should have named this the genealogy thread!

Thanks everyone. Let's keep stirring the pot!

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:33 PM

Sounds pretty entertaining to me, 'Spaw! Nice to see you on. How's the weather doing, now?

kat


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Fadac
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 01:39 PM

How come?

If you see a T shirt on a black guy that says "Soul" or "Black Power", we think "That's nice" No big deal.

If we see a woman with a T shirt that says "Fem Power" or has the female symbol on it, we think, "Oh, that's nice, I'm for women too."

However if you see a white guy with a T shirt that says "White power", we imeaditly think he is some sort of KKK raciest, evil person.

I this is called white guilt. Something about all the worlds problems layed at a white guys feet. Sorry folks but I don't feel that way. I have no guilt about my skin color. I also don't examin the skin color of my friends. I just don't think it's important. So my friends are many shades, however they have intrest similar to mine. That is why we are friends. No I don't have any iner city homless black friends. I don't go to the iner city, none of my sailing, motorcycling, flying, muisc, intrests are there. I also don't know many rich bankers or stock brokers either.

Before anyone jumps on me about the slavery thing. Remember ALL races have kept slaves. Like it or not, the white race stopped it. (wasn't easy, but it was done.) Now in the past 100 years, the world is mostly slave free. I can't speak for the Arab world or the Orient, I'm think there has been some reports of slavery there.

BTW, the English tried Irish and Scottish slaves in the new world about 100 years before bringing in the blacks. It was called "indentured servatude", however people were drafted into it, and then bought and sold, most never did get their freedom. I think one of my Scottish side ancesters was driven from their home and sent to Canada, becasue the landlord (Guess who?) needed the space for sheep. But that is a family legend I can't prove it.

So, what's the point? Don't worry about all the bad things your great grand parents did. Think of the good points too, and strive for today. We can't change our parents, or our history, however we can avoid the same mistakes.

Fadac


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 02:21 PM

"....cross between Joe Palooka and the Wandering Jew." Priceless mental image! :-D


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 02:24 PM

I recall the day that the late Dick Rosmini (a fine guitar picker) lost his job (in a Calypso band ) because he wasn't black and lost his girlfriend because he wasn't Jewish...


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 03:02 PM

I love Rosmini, Dick. I have one of his albums. Are we having a thread creep(?), I think that's what it's called anyway. I can only say times, they are a changin'. Thank goodness.

I remember a time when Rosmini would have hung or beat up for even wanting to play with black musicians. As for marriing a jewish woman, well...

My younger friends, here at work in a prominant NY bank, who consist of every race, color, and sex imaginable, ask me about the sixties. I tell them most of them sure wouldn't be working here if it weren't for that time.

Everyday is getting better, though some may see it as worse. Maybe this explains my faith in humanity.

Love, annap


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Margo
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 04:05 PM

Oh dear, FADAC! That's not my understanding of what an indentured servant was. As I understand it, an indentured servant voluntarily entered into the contract. The "owner" paid the servant's passage to the colonies, and the servant in turn was bound to serve for a set number of years. At the end of the servitude, the servant was given a sort of severance package of money or tools to get started in their own life as a free person.

Benjamin Franklin's mother had been an indentured servant, and in reading his auto biobraphy, I sensed no shame at the fact.

Margarita


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 04:16 PM

Margarita,

That was true in some cases, people who wanted to come here. In many cases though, criminals (and crime could be owing money) were given the choice of prison or coming here as a servant. Many times it was up to the person who bought you when your servitude was complete. Hence, slavery. In any case, from what I've read, abuse was the rule rather than the exception.

annap


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Fadac
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 04:19 PM

Margarita, Your correct, of course.

I was thinking of more in the 1500-1600 the very early days. I think they were called indentered servents, but they had to work 20 years for their freedom. Most folks only lived to about 30-35, so it wasn't a real hot deal. Somtimes the volunteer had a choice between that or jail. As I understand it never worked all that well. The Scotts and Irish would run away. There were several cases where they went to the Indians and asked to join the tribe. The Chief would tell them, "Ok, but here are our rules." The Indians gave them a better deal than the old masters, so they split. Then in the southern part of the country people died for all sorts of reasons. Real hot weather, long hard hours, these folks just died like flies. That is one of the reasons that they used Blacks. They could take the weather better. I could be wrong, the real early days of what went on here is still quite clouded. History dosn't seem to really start untill about 1700 or so. But there were people here from the middle 1500's, so there is about a 200 year gap. Perhaps some history buff will explain it.

BTW, even when most of the slaves in the US were Black, there was some white slaves too. Not a lot, but they were there. I believe a white could be sold into slavery for debt, for example. I think a lot of this has been covered up by the dust of time.

However my point was (is) we can't be held accountable for what our forfathers did. We have to live in our own times.

Happy Thursday....

Fadac


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Mike Billo
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 04:52 PM

I'm not making up any of the following. It's all true. The results of the 1980 census, were that the smallest ethnic minority in the USA were people of Ruthenian ancestry, whose family had been here less than two generations (under 2000 people). That's me!! In 1990 we were knocked out of first place by a nomadc Arab group that had settled in Michigan (I'd like to hear an anthropologist explain that one. It certainly can't be because the weather reminded them of home). So, I'm a first-generation American, of Ruthenian ancestry.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 05:02 PM

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but can you tell me where Ruthenians come from and can you tell me a little bit about that country.

annap


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Mike Billo
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 05:11 PM

We're a Russian-speaking sub-culture that claims to be a seperate ethnic group, and for reasons I'm unsure of, everybody has recognized us as a seperate ethnic group. My family comes from the area now known as Belarus. Reportedly, Ruthenians used to make flutes out of the bones of slain enemies. I'm happy to report, that custom is no longer practiced.


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: LEJ
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 05:19 PM

So Mike, where the heck IS Ruthenia anyway?

Fadac, if there is a family tradition of your ancestors being booted out of their homes to make room for sheep grazing, it may well be true: In the late 1700's , most of the Highlands were depopulated in order to break up the Clans and acquire grazing lands for the wealthy landowners. Many Highlands Scots went to Canada or Australia, others wound up in the mountains of Virginia and North Carolina- my Great-Great-Great Grandfather Jacob was one of them. He was awarded land in Kentucky for service in the Revolutionary War. He settled in a valley there alongside other veterans, most of them ex-patriate Scots and Welsh. Jacob's Grandson Stephen fought with the Confederate Army of Tennessee, was wounded, and returned home to marry a 19 year old Cherokee girl.

And so my Mom's family is an old one in Kentucky. My Dad's family were relative late-comers. His Grandpa was Swedish, his mother's family English and Irish. I say Long Live the Melting Pot... the more flavors, the better the stew.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: bbc
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:22 PM

I'm in the fairly common WASP category--some mix of English, Irish, German, & maybe a little Dutch. An Irish forebear (who kept a journal) came to America just before the American Revolution & fought on the American side, technically making me, I suppose, a Daughter of the American Revolution, although I have never followed up. A favorite family story involves my maternal German grandma, who chased her daughters (difficult, at best!) around the farmyard w/ a butcher knife. My temper is, generally, under better control.

Duane is a mix of English, Irish, & Lithuanian. Musically, he leans toward his Irish grandfather.

bbc


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:32 PM

As far as whites also being slaves, it has ever been thus for all women, until relatively recently, and of course still goes on in many subtle and not so subtle ways, from the high society "deb" who is expected, still, to marry into the "right" family regardless of how she feels, to the very young girls who are castrated and sewn shut in certain tribal societies.

Remember, we only gained the right to vote, in the US, this century; women were thrown in jail for marching for that right; we were used to get enough votes to make Wyoming a statehood (they didn't have enough men); we were used to replace the men in the factories of WWII; we are still used in low paying jobs and without very many voices of power to advocate equality; there are many religions, still, which promote/demand subjugation of woman as a lesser class of being, just as so much chattel, as in the "old days".

It seems to me young women and men need to be reminded of the advances we have accomplished and how they came about, so that they will cherish those freedoms, not take them for granted, and, hopefully, work for more change. I still hear way too many young women judging themselves in terms of how they appeal to men, to society in general, etc. never realising the most important person they have to answer to is themselves.

I don't know if we will ever have true equality, as I feel, in general, women will always be seen, first, as objects of sex, secondly, if we're lucky, as a human being. And, before some guy jumps in here and says men have become objects of sex appeal in commercials etc., let me say, it IS different! Men have the choice and have always had the choice, usually due to economics. They are not generally viewed solely as sex objects. There is also usually not the implicit danger for men that there is for women when viewed as sex objects.

Okay, I am off my podium (no soapboxes for this wimmin's libber!)**BG**

katlaughing and breaking the chains!


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Fadac
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:33 PM

LEJ, That sounds about right. My mom was the only one in her family that was born in the USA. The rest, Canada. So could be true. I lived on the Quilute Indian reservation for part of my early years. I worked on a fishing vessel that was based there. The Quilutes are relitives of the Maka Indians in Nea Bay. That's where the tree huggers are crying that the Indians are taking a whale. Me, I'm for the Indians, if it costs a couple of non endangered whales to give those folks a bit of pride in themselves, then so be it. Anyway, I knew a lot of those people. For them running water is a luxury. I mean these folks are poor. 99.9% are good people, when they are sober.

It's great to celabrate all the historys of other people, but remember, us white folks have a history too.

Minority? Heck, I'm the smallest minority, there is only one of me, and lots and lots of others. Like bunches of others.

How about this for a minority group, Big, Blond, Vet, Bearded, Squeeze box player. Gee there can't be more than a million of us...can there?

Only 8 more hours till FRIDAY!

Fadac


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:44 PM

Aren't 99.9% of almost allpeople mostly "good" when sober? I have a bugaboo about generalisations. When we talk of "those people" or "them" we are creating a difference of class; it usually winds up sounding like a put down or attitude of superiority, whether one means for it to or not.

I understand that some white males may feel a little beleagured; but please remember, you are still in the majority and positions of power in most instances, have been for about 2,000 years. Now it is the turn of the rest of us to discover the truths of our his/herstory. I know change can be difficult and confusing, but we are only finding our voices and that can only be good for the entire peoples and planet, as I believe it can help to bring about a "walking in balance" for all peoples and creatures of this great old "ball of clay", as my dad calls it.

kat


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: Fadac
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 07:04 PM

Kat, OK, I agree somewhat on your last. But who built the power base? Why wasn't the steamboat invented in India? Or the telephone in China? How come about 80% + of the major inventions came from people from Europe? I don't know.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I don't understand how bringing me down is going to build someone else up? In my trade (computers) the only thing that counts is computer knowlage. We have people of every color/race/sex/shoe size/culture, working here. Most are very well educated, I think we have at least 90-100 PHD's in the building. If you can do the work, you get the job. But it isn't easy work. Most spent many years learning their trade. Nobody here has a degree in basket weaving or political science. These guys have degrees in Physics, chemisty, etc. (Me, I'm the dumb one, no collage at all, just work and study at home for many years. But no degree. However at one time I could teach boluin Algabra and computer logic, I was told that I was at a Masters level, what ever that means. )

How ever, I am a racist, I think the human race is much better than the rat race, or the cow race, or the cat race, or the dog race. That's as far as I go with races.

(Oh, I didn't know that Gagus Kahn was white. He ruled a good part of the world for many years. )

Fadac


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: John OSh
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 07:06 PM

An intresting thing often happens when you travel from America to other countries... I am of Irish decent, mainly from the time of the troubles of 1916. When in America, people ask "What are you" I say Irish. But when travelling in Europe (esp. Ireland) I say I am American (and Proud of it!). I actually enjoyed this experience, as it shows the vast range of ethnicities and culture in America that we can enjoy yet still maintain a national identity.

John OSh


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: MudGuard
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 07:07 PM

I am not very diverse ethnically:
All my known ancestors came from Germany, though from various parts (Bavaria, Thuringia, Saxonia, Frankonia ...).
My father did some (lots of) research and was able to track some of my ancestors back to 780 (no, there is no 1 missing, he really found some family trees reaching back to the eighth century!!!), and all those ancestors came from some parts of Germany - so I might say I am a true German (but I am not proud of it, it is not my merit...).

Andreas


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Subject: RE: How ethnically diverse are we?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 07:43 PM

Most of our history has been written by white males. Sorry, guys, I guess if I am going to step in doodoo, it might as well be big doodoo: with limited time for research: inventions elsewhere: China-gunpowder, that ought to make some of you happy.

For extensive information on the ancient civilisations of Islam and what they contributed to the sciences, esp. medicine, please visit here

Here is an excerpt: So it is with justification that the title of "Europe's Professor' is given to the newly-arisen Islamic power, since it was through them that the treasures of ancient Greek and Roman science were rediscovered and enhanced and given back to Europe as she began to emerge from the Dark Ages."

It's really an interesting site.

Here's another on really ancient inventions of the Ukrainian region click here

And, here is one more which is a very interesting site about 4000 years of women in science click here

I will post more info on inventions of other civilisations as I get them.

katlaughing


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