mudcat.org: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Related threads:
The re-Imagined Village (946)
BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew (1193)
The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout (380)
The Weekly Walkabout (273) (closed)
Walkaboutsverse (989) (closed)


WalkaboutsVerse 02 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,leeneia 02 Aug 08 - 11:00 PM
Dave Hanson 03 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM
CarolC 03 Aug 08 - 02:25 AM
catspaw49 03 Aug 08 - 02:53 AM
CarolC 03 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM
Charley Noble 03 Aug 08 - 08:44 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Aug 08 - 10:27 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Aug 08 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Aug 08 - 06:27 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM
catspaw49 04 Aug 08 - 08:00 AM
Joseph P 04 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM
catspaw49 04 Aug 08 - 09:06 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Aug 08 - 09:30 AM
catspaw49 04 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM
katlaughing 04 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM
catspaw49 04 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Aug 08 - 12:01 AM
Amos 05 Aug 08 - 02:55 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Aug 08 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Aug 08 - 05:48 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Aug 08 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Aug 08 - 06:12 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Aug 08 - 06:13 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Aug 08 - 06:52 AM
mandotim 06 Aug 08 - 07:05 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Aug 08 - 07:13 AM
mandotim 06 Aug 08 - 07:40 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Aug 08 - 09:04 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Aug 08 - 10:12 AM
mandotim 06 Aug 08 - 11:21 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM
CarolC 06 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM
mandotim 06 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM
CarolC 06 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM
Amos 06 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM
lady penelope 06 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM
Jack Blandiver 06 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 06 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM
lady penelope 06 Aug 08 - 04:29 PM
CarolC 06 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM
Don Firth 06 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM
Don Firth 06 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM
Don Firth 07 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Aug 08 - 02:53 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Aug 08 - 07:01 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Aug 08 - 07:12 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Aug 08 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Aug 08 - 08:26 AM
The Fooles Troupe 07 Aug 08 - 08:33 AM
irishenglish 07 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM
SINSULL 07 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Ed 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM
irishenglish 07 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM
Don Firth 07 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 08 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:09 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM
Jack Blandiver 08 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM
Jack Blandiver 08 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM
irishenglish 08 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM
Jack Blandiver 08 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM
Jack Blandiver 08 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM
irishenglish 08 Aug 08 - 04:27 PM
Jack Blandiver 08 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM
irishenglish 08 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Aug 08 - 05:12 PM
irishenglish 08 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM
Phil Edwards 08 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM
Don Firth 08 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM
Don Firth 08 Aug 08 - 08:16 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Aug 08 - 04:24 AM
Phil Edwards 09 Aug 08 - 05:19 AM
lady penelope 09 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM
CarolC 09 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
The Sandman 09 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Aug 08 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM
lady penelope 09 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Aug 08 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Aug 08 - 04:40 AM
Dave (Bridge) 10 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM
irishenglish 10 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM
irishenglish 10 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Aug 08 - 01:56 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,stu 10 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM
Don Firth 10 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM
Don Firth 10 Aug 08 - 10:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Aug 08 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Ed 11 Aug 08 - 05:43 AM
Joseph P 11 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,stu 11 Aug 08 - 05:59 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM
Phil Edwards 11 Aug 08 - 10:41 AM
Joseph P 11 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM
The Sandman 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 11 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM
The Sandman 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM
catspaw49 11 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM
irishenglish 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM
Ruth Archer 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM
catspaw49 11 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM
irishenglish 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM
Don Firth 11 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM
Ruth Archer 11 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM
catspaw49 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM
Phil Edwards 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM
Don Firth 11 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM
Don Firth 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM
Phil Edwards 11 Aug 08 - 06:50 PM
Don Firth 11 Aug 08 - 07:10 PM
Ruth Archer 11 Aug 08 - 07:25 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM
RobbieWilson 11 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM
Don Firth 11 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Aug 08 - 01:35 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM
Joseph P 12 Aug 08 - 07:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM
catspaw49 12 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM
Joseph P 12 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM
catspaw49 12 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Aug 08 - 02:44 PM
Ruth Archer 12 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM
Don Firth 12 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM
Ruth Archer 12 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Aug 08 - 05:19 PM
Don Firth 12 Aug 08 - 08:10 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 11:37 PM
Joseph P 13 Aug 08 - 03:49 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM
Ruth Archer 13 Aug 08 - 05:00 AM
irishenglish 13 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Stu 13 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM
Ruth Archer 13 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM
Don Firth 13 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM
Ruth Archer 13 Aug 08 - 04:52 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM
KB in Iowa 13 Aug 08 - 05:18 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Aug 08 - 05:20 PM
catspaw49 13 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM
Don Firth 13 Aug 08 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 13 Aug 08 - 11:08 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 11:32 PM
catspaw49 14 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 02:20 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 02:26 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 03:00 AM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 03:16 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Aug 08 - 03:44 AM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 04:01 AM
catspaw49 14 Aug 08 - 04:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 05:45 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 06:16 AM
irishenglish 14 Aug 08 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM
catspaw49 14 Aug 08 - 07:56 AM
irishenglish 14 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 08:07 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Aug 08 - 08:24 AM
Joseph P 14 Aug 08 - 08:28 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 08:47 AM
Paul Burke 14 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 09:01 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM
Mr Happy 14 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM
Phil Edwards 14 Aug 08 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 10:32 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 10:38 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 10:55 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM
KB in Iowa 14 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM
Phil Edwards 14 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM
KB in Iowa 14 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM
Don Firth 14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM
KB in Iowa 14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM
Stu 14 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM
irishenglish 14 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM
Phil Edwards 14 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM
irishenglish 14 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 04:30 PM
Don Firth 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM
Phil Edwards 14 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM
Don Firth 14 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM
Don Firth 14 Aug 08 - 06:46 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 09:01 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 09:44 PM
Don Firth 15 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Aug 08 - 04:11 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 04:43 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 05:18 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Aug 08 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 06:02 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 06:43 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Aug 08 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 06:48 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Aug 08 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 07:04 AM
Stu 15 Aug 08 - 07:09 AM
irishenglish 15 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 07:56 AM
irishenglish 15 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 08:20 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM
Joseph P 15 Aug 08 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM
irishenglish 15 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM
Phil Edwards 15 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM
irishenglish 15 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM
irishenglish 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM
irishenglish 15 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM
KB in Iowa 15 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM
KB in Iowa 15 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM
Don Firth 15 Aug 08 - 07:43 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 09:07 PM
Stu 16 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Aug 08 - 10:35 AM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Aug 08 - 03:02 PM
Phil Edwards 16 Aug 08 - 04:56 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 08 - 07:12 PM
catspaw49 16 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 08:30 PM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 08 - 08:49 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 09:32 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 09:36 PM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 10:09 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 08 - 11:06 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 08 - 12:04 AM
catspaw49 17 Aug 08 - 01:15 AM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 01:31 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 17 Aug 08 - 01:41 AM
Peace 17 Aug 08 - 01:52 AM
catspaw49 17 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 17 Aug 08 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 17 Aug 08 - 02:49 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Aug 08 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,stu 17 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Stu 17 Aug 08 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 17 Aug 08 - 11:02 AM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 01:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 17 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM
The Sandman 17 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM
Peace 17 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM
Don Firth 17 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 02:54 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Aug 08 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 18 Aug 08 - 09:41 AM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM
KB in Iowa 18 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM
KB in Iowa 18 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM
KB in Iowa 18 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM
Little Hawk 18 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM
KB in Iowa 18 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM
Don Firth 18 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 18 Aug 08 - 01:57 PM
Little Hawk 18 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM
KB in Iowa 18 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM
Little Hawk 18 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM
KB in Iowa 18 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM
KB in Iowa 18 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Aug 08 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,stu 19 Aug 08 - 05:49 AM
Jack Blandiver 19 Aug 08 - 06:01 AM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 19 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM
The Fooles Troupe 19 Aug 08 - 06:43 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Aug 08 - 04:29 AM
Don Firth 20 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Aug 08 - 04:09 AM
Stu 21 Aug 08 - 04:25 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Aug 08 - 12:43 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM
SINSULL 21 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM
Don Firth 22 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Aug 08 - 06:28 AM
Jack Blandiver 23 Aug 08 - 07:07 AM
Don Firth 23 Aug 08 - 12:58 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM
Don Firth 23 Aug 08 - 04:44 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Aug 08 - 03:37 AM
catspaw49 24 Aug 08 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 24 Aug 08 - 08:51 AM
catspaw49 24 Aug 08 - 09:14 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Aug 08 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 24 Aug 08 - 10:12 AM
catspaw49 24 Aug 08 - 05:58 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Aug 08 - 04:41 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Aug 08 - 05:27 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Aug 08 - 08:36 AM
Little Hawk 25 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM
catspaw49 25 Aug 08 - 09:54 AM
Little Hawk 25 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM
catspaw49 25 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM
Little Hawk 25 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM
catspaw49 25 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM
Gene Burton 25 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM
Little Hawk 25 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Insane Beard 25 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM
Stu 25 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Insane Beard 25 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM
Les from Hull 25 Aug 08 - 03:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM
Don Firth 25 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Aug 08 - 04:12 AM
Jack Blandiver 26 Aug 08 - 04:26 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Aug 08 - 06:46 AM
Jack Blandiver 26 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 26 Aug 08 - 09:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM
The Sandman 26 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM
irishenglish 26 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM
catspaw49 26 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM
irishenglish 26 Aug 08 - 02:02 PM
Amos 26 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM
Don Firth 26 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM
Don Firth 26 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM
Little Hawk 26 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM
s&r 26 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM
catspaw49 26 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM
Don Firth 26 Aug 08 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 26 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM
Jack Blandiver 27 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Aug 08 - 06:02 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Aug 08 - 06:40 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Aug 08 - 07:40 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Aug 08 - 08:53 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Aug 08 - 09:02 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Aug 08 - 09:16 AM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 08 - 09:20 AM
s&r 27 Aug 08 - 09:55 AM
Master Baiter 27 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM
s&r 27 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Aug 08 - 10:22 AM
Joseph P 27 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM
Joseph P 27 Aug 08 - 10:47 AM
Master Baiter 27 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Aug 08 - 10:57 AM
Master Baiter 27 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM
Joseph P 27 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Aug 08 - 11:31 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM
catspaw49 27 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM
mandotim 27 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM
Don Firth 27 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM
irishenglish 27 Aug 08 - 02:14 PM
The Sandman 28 Aug 08 - 05:56 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM
Don Firth 28 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM
Stu 29 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM
Don Firth 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
catspaw49 29 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 08 - 12:05 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Aug 08 - 03:54 AM
catspaw49 30 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM
Joseph P 01 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM
Ruth Archer 01 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM
olddude 01 Sep 08 - 11:30 AM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM
Don Firth 01 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM
Don Firth 01 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM
Don Firth 01 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM
catspaw49 02 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM
Joseph P 02 Sep 08 - 04:31 AM
Stu 02 Sep 08 - 05:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Sep 08 - 05:47 AM
Joseph P 02 Sep 08 - 06:53 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Sep 08 - 07:20 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM
s&r 02 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM
s&r 02 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM
The Sandman 02 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM
olddude 02 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 08 - 03:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Sep 08 - 06:39 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Sep 08 - 10:18 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Sep 08 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop) 13 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Sep 08 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 17 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM
s&r 21 Sep 08 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Sep 08 - 06:51 AM
mandotim 21 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Sep 08 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM
mandotim 21 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM
GUEST 21 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Sep 08 - 02:19 PM
mandotim 21 Sep 08 - 03:32 PM
s&r 21 Sep 08 - 03:43 PM
Don Firth 21 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 08 - 06:46 AM
mandotim 22 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM
s&r 22 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Sep 08 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 23 Sep 08 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Sep 08 - 08:02 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Sep 08 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 23 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 23 Sep 08 - 05:34 PM
GUEST 24 Sep 08 - 04:24 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Sep 08 - 05:13 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Sep 08 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 25 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM
s&r 25 Sep 08 - 11:29 AM
s&r 25 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 25 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 25 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM
Stu 26 Sep 08 - 06:47 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Sep 08 - 09:15 AM
Stu 26 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 26 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM
catspaw49 27 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM
catspaw49 27 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 27 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM
s&r 27 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM
catspaw49 27 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM
s&r 27 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM
catspaw49 27 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Sep 08 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 28 Sep 08 - 04:52 AM
s&r 28 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM
catspaw49 28 Sep 08 - 03:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM
catspaw49 29 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM
SINSULL 29 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 30 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM
Joseph P 30 Sep 08 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Sep 08 - 12:58 PM
catspaw49 30 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM
Amos 30 Sep 08 - 01:38 PM
SINSULL 30 Sep 08 - 01:47 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM
SINSULL 30 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM
Ruth Archer 30 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 05:54 AM
catspaw49 01 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 09:49 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM
catspaw49 01 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM
catspaw49 01 Oct 08 - 08:14 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
catspaw49 02 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM
catspaw49 02 Oct 08 - 07:41 PM
s&r 03 Oct 08 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Joe P at work 03 Oct 08 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,We Subvert Koalas 03 Oct 08 - 05:07 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 06:26 AM
catspaw49 03 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 08:38 AM
catspaw49 03 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 12:16 PM
catspaw49 03 Oct 08 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 01:43 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Oct 08 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Joe P 03 Oct 08 - 06:22 PM
catspaw49 03 Oct 08 - 07:17 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 04:14 AM
s&r 04 Oct 08 - 05:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 06:00 AM
catspaw49 04 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM
catspaw49 04 Oct 08 - 09:33 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Oct 08 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Oct 08 - 05:54 AM
catspaw49 05 Oct 08 - 07:27 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Oct 08 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Oct 08 - 12:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM
s&r 05 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM
s&r 05 Oct 08 - 07:05 PM
s&r 05 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Oct 08 - 07:47 PM
s&r 06 Oct 08 - 02:31 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Oct 08 - 06:50 AM
s&r 06 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM
s&r 06 Oct 08 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 06 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Oct 08 - 02:45 PM
Ruth Archer 06 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM
KB in Iowa 06 Oct 08 - 03:27 PM
Ruth Archer 06 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM
KB in Iowa 06 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM
KB in Iowa 06 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM
Ruth Archer 06 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM
Little Hawk 06 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM
Ruth Archer 06 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Oct 08 - 04:53 AM
Ruth Archer 07 Oct 08 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM
catspaw49 07 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM
Ruth Archer 07 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM
s&r 07 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM
catspaw49 07 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM
Ruth Archer 07 Oct 08 - 03:24 PM
s&r 07 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM
s&r 07 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM
catspaw49 07 Oct 08 - 11:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Oct 08 - 06:12 AM
Jack Blandiver 08 Oct 08 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Oct 08 - 06:42 AM
Ruth Archer 08 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM
Ruth Archer 08 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM
catspaw49 08 Oct 08 - 07:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Oct 08 - 01:43 PM
s&r 08 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
Ruth Archer 08 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Oct 08 - 02:43 PM
Little Hawk 08 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM
Little Hawk 08 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM
s&r 08 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Oct 08 - 06:31 AM
catspaw49 09 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Oct 08 - 01:13 PM
Little Hawk 09 Oct 08 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM
Little Hawk 09 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM
s&r 09 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM
KB in Iowa 09 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM
Little Hawk 09 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM
catspaw49 10 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 10 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM
KB in Iowa 10 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM
Little Hawk 10 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM
s&r 10 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM
Little Hawk 10 Oct 08 - 07:20 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 08 - 09:17 PM
Little Hawk 10 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM
catspaw49 11 Oct 08 - 06:21 AM
s&r 11 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 11 Oct 08 - 11:47 AM
Little Hawk 11 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM
catspaw49 11 Oct 08 - 03:35 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM
Master Baiter 12 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 08 - 12:38 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 12 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Oct 08 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 12 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 12 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM
s&r 12 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 08 - 11:35 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM
Joseph P 13 Oct 08 - 08:20 AM
Ruth Archer 13 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM
s&r 13 Oct 08 - 09:25 AM
Paul Burke 13 Oct 08 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Oct 08 - 10:09 AM
catspaw49 13 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM
Ruth Archer 13 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM
Joseph P 13 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM
Stu 13 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM
Stu 13 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM
Joseph P 13 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM
Little Hawk 13 Oct 08 - 03:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 13 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM
Joseph P 14 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM
Joseph P 14 Oct 08 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 14 Oct 08 - 12:02 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM
Little Hawk 14 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM
Gervase 14 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,JosephP at home 14 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,JosephP at home 14 Oct 08 - 03:59 PM
Ruth Archer 14 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM
Stu 15 Oct 08 - 03:44 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Oct 08 - 04:43 AM
Joseph P 15 Oct 08 - 04:58 AM
Joseph P 15 Oct 08 - 05:06 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Oct 08 - 05:21 AM
Joseph P 15 Oct 08 - 05:28 AM
Gervase 15 Oct 08 - 06:00 AM
Joseph P 15 Oct 08 - 06:24 AM
Joseph P 15 Oct 08 - 06:31 AM
catspaw49 15 Oct 08 - 06:39 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 08 - 08:42 AM
Joseph P 15 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM
Stu 15 Oct 08 - 09:22 AM
catspaw49 15 Oct 08 - 09:28 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM
Little Hawk 15 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM
SINSULL 15 Oct 08 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Joseph P 15 Oct 08 - 03:32 PM
s&r 15 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM
Little Hawk 15 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 08 - 07:16 AM
s&r 16 Oct 08 - 07:17 PM
catspaw49 16 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM
Little Hawk 16 Oct 08 - 07:56 PM
Don Firth 16 Oct 08 - 09:27 PM
catspaw49 16 Oct 08 - 11:44 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 08 - 12:07 AM
Gervase 17 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM
Gervase 17 Oct 08 - 02:55 AM
Gervase 17 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 17 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 08 - 06:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM
Joseph P 17 Oct 08 - 10:26 AM
Don Firth 17 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 17 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM
s&r 18 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM
s&r 18 Oct 08 - 12:40 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM
s&r 18 Oct 08 - 07:34 PM
catspaw49 18 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM
s&r 19 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM
s&r 19 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM
Little Hawk 19 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM
peregrina 19 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM
Gervase 19 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM
s&r 19 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 08 - 03:10 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 08 - 04:19 PM
catspaw49 19 Oct 08 - 11:13 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Oct 08 - 06:06 AM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM
Gervase 20 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM
SINSULL 20 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM
catspaw49 20 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM
Jack Blandiver 20 Oct 08 - 12:33 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM
Gervase 20 Oct 08 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Oct 08 - 03:28 PM
Gervase 20 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM
Jack Blandiver 20 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM
Ruth Archer 21 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM
Jack Blandiver 21 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Oct 08 - 06:54 AM
irishenglish 21 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM
mandotim 21 Oct 08 - 01:12 PM
catspaw49 21 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM
GUEST 21 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM
SINSULL 21 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Ruth, who has lost her cookies. 21 Oct 08 - 03:29 PM
irishenglish 21 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM
Gervase 21 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM
Jack Blandiver 21 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM
Little Hawk 21 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 22 Oct 08 - 03:35 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Oct 08 - 06:12 AM
Joseph P 22 Oct 08 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 07:00 AM
catspaw49 22 Oct 08 - 07:53 AM
irishenglish 22 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM
catspaw49 22 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Ruth sans cookie 22 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Oct 08 - 12:18 PM
Donuel 22 Oct 08 - 12:33 PM
catspaw49 22 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM
Don Firth 22 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM
Gervase 22 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM
s&r 22 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 22 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM
Ruth Archer 22 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM
Don Firth 22 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM
Ruth Archer 22 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM
Little Hawk 22 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM
Jack Blandiver 22 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM
Jack Blandiver 22 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM
irishenglish 22 Oct 08 - 06:42 PM
Don Firth 22 Oct 08 - 09:56 PM
Don Firth 22 Oct 08 - 10:04 PM
catspaw49 22 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM
Gervase 23 Oct 08 - 02:49 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Oct 08 - 06:28 AM
irishenglish 23 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM
Ruth Archer 23 Oct 08 - 07:22 AM
Little Hawk 23 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM
Little Hawk 23 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM
Stu 23 Oct 08 - 01:38 PM
Don Firth 23 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM
Little Hawk 23 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,VOlgadon 23 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM
catspaw49 23 Oct 08 - 09:50 PM
Little Hawk 23 Oct 08 - 10:36 PM
catspaw49 23 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Oct 08 - 06:49 AM
irishenglish 24 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM
Little Hawk 24 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM
irishenglish 24 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM
Don Firth 24 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 24 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM
s&r 24 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM
Don Firth 24 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM
Little Hawk 24 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM
Little Hawk 24 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 25 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 25 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM
Don Firth 25 Oct 08 - 02:51 PM
Little Hawk 25 Oct 08 - 05:59 PM
Jack Blandiver 25 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 08 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Stu s c 26 Oct 08 - 05:46 AM
Stu 26 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM
Little Hawk 26 Oct 08 - 12:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Oct 08 - 01:13 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Stu s c 26 Oct 08 - 03:16 PM
GUEST 26 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM
Jack Blandiver 27 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM
Little Hawk 27 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Oct 08 - 12:52 PM
Little Hawk 27 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM
Little Hawk 27 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Oct 08 - 02:04 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Insane Beard 27 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 27 Oct 08 - 03:02 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM
Little Hawk 27 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 08 - 06:46 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Oct 08 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 28 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM
Paul Burke 28 Oct 08 - 08:35 AM
Little Hawk 28 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM
Little Hawk 28 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Stu sans cookie 28 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM
Don Firth 28 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Stu sans cookie 28 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM
Don Firth 28 Oct 08 - 02:46 PM
Don Firth 28 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM
Little Hawk 28 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM
Little Hawk 28 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM
Don Firth 28 Oct 08 - 08:24 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM
Jack Blandiver 29 Oct 08 - 08:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 29 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM
Paul Burke 29 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM
Jack Blandiver 29 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,Stu sans cookie 29 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM
Don Firth 29 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 29 Oct 08 - 05:16 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM
Little Hawk 30 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM
Don Firth 30 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM
Little Hawk 30 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 30 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM
Don Firth 30 Oct 08 - 08:59 PM
Don Firth 30 Oct 08 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Smokey 30 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM
catspaw49 30 Oct 08 - 11:05 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 31 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM
Don Firth 31 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Smokey 31 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM
Jack Blandiver 31 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Smokey 31 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM
s&r 31 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM
Don Firth 31 Oct 08 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Smokey 31 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM
s&r 01 Nov 08 - 04:11 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Nov 08 - 05:41 AM
Stu 01 Nov 08 - 06:35 AM
catspaw49 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM
Don Firth 01 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM
Little Hawk 01 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Nov 08 - 03:52 PM
Don Firth 01 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM
Little Hawk 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 PM
Don Firth 01 Nov 08 - 07:29 PM
Little Hawk 01 Nov 08 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM
Don Firth 01 Nov 08 - 09:26 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 01 Nov 08 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM
Little Hawk 01 Nov 08 - 10:21 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 01 Nov 08 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,Smokey 01 Nov 08 - 10:30 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Nov 08 - 05:31 AM
s&r 02 Nov 08 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Nov 08 - 06:04 AM
s&r 02 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM
catspaw49 02 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM
Gervase 02 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM
Little Hawk 02 Nov 08 - 11:04 AM
s&r 02 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM
Little Hawk 02 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Nov 08 - 03:03 PM
Nick 02 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM
Little Hawk 02 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Smokey 02 Nov 08 - 05:36 PM
Don Firth 02 Nov 08 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Smokey 02 Nov 08 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Smokey 02 Nov 08 - 10:33 PM
Don Firth 02 Nov 08 - 11:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 03 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Nov 08 - 06:08 AM
catspaw49 03 Nov 08 - 06:17 AM
s&r 03 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 12:25 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM
catspaw49 03 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM
Gervase 03 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM
Little Hawk 03 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM
Gervase 03 Nov 08 - 04:34 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 08 - 06:19 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Smokey 03 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM
Little Hawk 03 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM
catspaw49 03 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Smokey 03 Nov 08 - 11:25 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 12:25 AM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Nov 08 - 12:53 AM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 02:42 AM
catspaw49 04 Nov 08 - 03:38 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Nov 08 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Nov 08 - 07:42 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,His Brother's Brother 04 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Nov 08 - 02:27 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM
Gervase 04 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM
Jack Blandiver 04 Nov 08 - 03:28 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 03:59 PM
Gervase 04 Nov 08 - 04:27 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 05:43 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 08 - 06:54 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 08 - 07:04 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 08 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Nov 08 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Smokey 04 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Nov 08 - 05:26 AM
Stu 05 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Nov 08 - 02:35 PM
Gervase 05 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Nov 08 - 03:37 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Nov 08 - 05:18 AM
Stu 06 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM
Dave Hanson 06 Nov 08 - 08:18 AM
Gervase 06 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM
catspaw49 06 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM
s&r 06 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM
s&r 06 Nov 08 - 11:04 AM
s&r 06 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Nov 08 - 03:33 AM
s&r 08 Nov 08 - 04:19 AM
peregrina 08 Nov 08 - 04:54 AM
Phil Edwards 08 Nov 08 - 05:22 AM
Stu 08 Nov 08 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 08 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM
Will Fly 08 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM
Stu 08 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM
Little Hawk 08 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 03:28 PM
Little Hawk 08 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM
Don Firth 08 Nov 08 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Smokey 08 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 12:41 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Nov 08 - 04:07 AM
Stu 09 Nov 08 - 05:04 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM
Stu 09 Nov 08 - 08:56 AM
Gervase 09 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM
catspaw49 09 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM
Phil Edwards 09 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 02:42 PM
s&r 09 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 Nov 08 - 03:31 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM
Gervase 09 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Smokey 09 Nov 08 - 05:19 PM
Little Hawk 09 Nov 08 - 05:19 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 07:07 PM
Little Hawk 09 Nov 08 - 07:17 PM
Ruth Archer 09 Nov 08 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Smokey 09 Nov 08 - 07:37 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,Smokey 09 Nov 08 - 09:16 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 08 - 10:21 PM
catspaw49 09 Nov 08 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,Smokey 10 Nov 08 - 12:59 AM
Paul Burke 10 Nov 08 - 03:44 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Nov 08 - 03:50 AM
s&r 10 Nov 08 - 04:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 Nov 08 - 05:45 AM
s&r 10 Nov 08 - 06:00 AM
Ruth Archer 10 Nov 08 - 06:50 AM
Phil Edwards 10 Nov 08 - 08:21 AM
mandotim 10 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM
Little Hawk 10 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM
Don Firth 10 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM
Little Hawk 10 Nov 08 - 02:53 PM
Stu 10 Nov 08 - 03:08 PM
Little Hawk 10 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM
The Sandman 10 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM
Don Firth 10 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM
Little Hawk 10 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM
catspaw49 10 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM
Gervase 10 Nov 08 - 05:23 PM
Little Hawk 10 Nov 08 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Smokey 10 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM
Don Firth 10 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM
Don Firth 10 Nov 08 - 07:35 PM
Little Hawk 10 Nov 08 - 11:32 PM
Little Hawk 10 Nov 08 - 11:54 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Nov 08 - 01:40 AM
Little Hawk 11 Nov 08 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM
Little Hawk 11 Nov 08 - 05:26 PM
Little Hawk 11 Nov 08 - 05:31 PM
catspaw49 11 Nov 08 - 08:56 PM
Little Hawk 12 Nov 08 - 01:00 AM
Don Firth 12 Nov 08 - 01:04 AM
Gervase 12 Nov 08 - 03:08 AM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 03:21 AM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 03:22 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM
mandotim 12 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM
Phil Edwards 12 Nov 08 - 08:42 AM
mandotim 12 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM
Stu 12 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM
Ruth Archer 12 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM
Little Hawk 12 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM
catspaw49 12 Nov 08 - 12:24 PM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 12:31 PM
GUEST 12 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM
Little Hawk 12 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM
Little Hawk 12 Nov 08 - 12:38 PM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM
The Sandman 12 Nov 08 - 01:08 PM
Little Hawk 12 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM
Will Fly 12 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM
Don Firth 12 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM
Little Hawk 12 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM
Little Hawk 12 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM
Don Firth 12 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM
Ruth Archer 12 Nov 08 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Smokey 12 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM
The Sandman 12 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Smokey 12 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM
catspaw49 12 Nov 08 - 10:23 PM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Nov 08 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Nov 08 - 01:21 AM
Ruth Archer 13 Nov 08 - 03:48 AM
Will Fly 13 Nov 08 - 03:55 AM
Ruth Archer 13 Nov 08 - 09:40 AM
Will Fly 13 Nov 08 - 11:52 AM
Little Hawk 13 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM
s&r 13 Nov 08 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Nov 08 - 01:58 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Nov 08 - 02:06 PM
Will Fly 13 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM
Little Hawk 13 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM
Stu 13 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM
Will Fly 13 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM
catspaw49 13 Nov 08 - 03:22 PM
Gervase 13 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM
Little Hawk 13 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Smokey 13 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM
Little Hawk 13 Nov 08 - 06:05 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 08 - 08:00 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM
Little Hawk 13 Nov 08 - 11:34 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 08 - 01:10 AM
Gervase 14 Nov 08 - 03:25 AM
Stu 14 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM
Stu 14 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM
Stu 14 Nov 08 - 10:10 AM
catspaw49 14 Nov 08 - 01:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Nov 08 - 01:28 PM
Phil Edwards 14 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM
Jack Blandiver 14 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM
catspaw49 14 Nov 08 - 03:27 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 08 - 03:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Nov 08 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Nov 08 - 05:35 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM
s&r 15 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM
Gervase 15 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM
s&r 15 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM
Dave Hanson 15 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM
Will Fly 15 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 03:06 PM
Little Hawk 15 Nov 08 - 04:07 PM
Don Firth 15 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 04:40 PM
Gervase 15 Nov 08 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,Smokey 15 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM
catspaw49 15 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM
s&r 15 Nov 08 - 07:15 PM
olddude 15 Nov 08 - 07:25 PM
Dave Hanson 16 Nov 08 - 03:11 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Nov 08 - 09:32 AM
Will Fly 16 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM
s&r 16 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM
s&r 16 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM
Will Fly 16 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM
olddude 16 Nov 08 - 12:11 PM
Little Hawk 16 Nov 08 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Smokey 16 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,Smokey 16 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Smokey 16 Nov 08 - 07:20 PM
Don Firth 16 Nov 08 - 10:06 PM
catspaw49 16 Nov 08 - 10:27 PM
Will Fly 17 Nov 08 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 17 Nov 08 - 03:47 AM
Will Fly 17 Nov 08 - 03:53 AM
Stu 17 Nov 08 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 17 Nov 08 - 04:09 AM
Jack Blandiver 17 Nov 08 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 17 Nov 08 - 04:24 AM
Gervase 17 Nov 08 - 04:36 AM
Mooh 17 Nov 08 - 11:12 AM
catspaw49 17 Nov 08 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 17 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM
olddude 17 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM
Gervase 17 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM
Master Baiter 17 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM
Don Firth 17 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM
Little Hawk 17 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM
Will Fly 17 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM
Little Hawk 17 Nov 08 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Smokey 17 Nov 08 - 05:35 PM
Little Hawk 17 Nov 08 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Smokey 17 Nov 08 - 06:03 PM
Don Firth 17 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 17 Nov 08 - 07:24 PM
Don Firth 17 Nov 08 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Smokey 17 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM
Little Hawk 17 Nov 08 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Smokey 18 Nov 08 - 12:15 AM
Little Hawk 18 Nov 08 - 12:22 AM
Don Firth 18 Nov 08 - 12:39 AM
Little Hawk 18 Nov 08 - 01:36 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Nov 08 - 01:32 PM
Will Fly 18 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM
Little Hawk 18 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM
Will Fly 18 Nov 08 - 02:23 PM
Stu 18 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM
Little Hawk 18 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM
Don Firth 18 Nov 08 - 03:24 PM
olddude 18 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM
Little Hawk 18 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM
Don Firth 18 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM
Little Hawk 18 Nov 08 - 05:12 PM
Don Firth 18 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM
Gervase 18 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM
mandotim 18 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM
olddude 18 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM
Don Firth 18 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM
Ruth Archer 18 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,Smokey 18 Nov 08 - 07:54 PM
mandotim 19 Nov 08 - 04:14 AM
Paul Burke 19 Nov 08 - 05:44 AM
mandotim 19 Nov 08 - 12:00 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM
Stu 19 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM
mandotim 19 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM
Will Fly 19 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM
Will Fly 19 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM
Jack Blandiver 19 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM
Don Firth 19 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM
olddude 19 Nov 08 - 04:16 PM
s&r 19 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM
Will Fly 19 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM
olddude 19 Nov 08 - 05:13 PM
Will Fly 19 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM
olddude 19 Nov 08 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Smokey 19 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM
catspaw49 20 Nov 08 - 01:07 AM
peregrina 20 Nov 08 - 03:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 20 Nov 08 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,stigweard working out and about 20 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM
Dave Hanson 20 Nov 08 - 08:34 AM
Will Fly 20 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM
catspaw49 20 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM
peregrina 20 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM
Will Fly 20 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM
mandotim 20 Nov 08 - 11:21 AM
Paul Burke 20 Nov 08 - 11:25 AM
Will Fly 20 Nov 08 - 12:33 PM
The Sandman 20 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM
olddude 20 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Smokey 20 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Smokey 20 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM
Ruth Archer 20 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM
Phil Edwards 20 Nov 08 - 01:46 PM
olddude 20 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM
Ruth Archer 20 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM
s&r 20 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM
Gervase 20 Nov 08 - 03:23 PM
Don Firth 20 Nov 08 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Smokey 20 Nov 08 - 09:35 PM
Sleepy Rosie 21 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 21 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM
Sleepy Rosie 21 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM
peregrina 21 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM
Little Hawk 21 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM
Sleepy Rosie 21 Nov 08 - 01:37 PM
Little Hawk 21 Nov 08 - 01:46 PM
Sleepy Rosie 21 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 08:51 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 08:53 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 08:59 PM
Little Hawk 21 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM
Little Hawk 21 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM
Little Hawk 21 Nov 08 - 10:17 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Nov 08 - 10:23 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 10:37 PM
GUEST,Smokey 21 Nov 08 - 10:44 PM
Don Firth 21 Nov 08 - 10:56 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 10:57 PM
catspaw49 21 Nov 08 - 10:59 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 12:22 AM
catspaw49 22 Nov 08 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 01:31 AM
catspaw49 22 Nov 08 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 01:37 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Nov 08 - 06:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 22 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM
Phil Edwards 22 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Nov 08 - 11:58 AM
Will Fly 22 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM
Jack Blandiver 22 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 08 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 04:19 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM
peregrina 22 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 05:30 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Nov 08 - 05:31 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Nov 08 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM
peregrina 22 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 06:48 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 08 - 07:23 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 08 - 08:56 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 08 - 10:49 PM
catspaw49 22 Nov 08 - 11:07 PM
GUEST,Smokey 22 Nov 08 - 11:27 PM
Jack Blandiver 23 Nov 08 - 04:36 AM
Phil Edwards 23 Nov 08 - 05:03 AM
Will Fly 23 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM
Sleepy Rosie 23 Nov 08 - 06:29 AM
peregrina 23 Nov 08 - 01:19 PM
peregrina 23 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM
olddude 23 Nov 08 - 03:21 PM
Little Hawk 23 Nov 08 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Nov 08 - 01:05 AM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Nov 08 - 01:31 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Folklore: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM

(I've been told a mod. will look at why The Weekly Walkabout was closed and, meantime, to start this new temporary thread.)

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

(I wrote this just after repatriating 11 years ago.)

Poem 43 of 230: A BAYSWATER BED-SIT

Arrived in London,
    At Heathrow Airport -
With sixty kilos
    Of luggage I'd brought.

Found a paper, Loot,
    And called an agent;
Stored two heavy bags,
    Then to him I went.

For one week of rent,
    He'd ensure a bed
Within Bayswater -
    A bed-sit, he said.

It was eighty pounds
    Per week, nothing more,
With a lift arranged
    To the building's door.

Knackered and sleepless,
    I took the deal;
Checked-in quickly,
    Had a rushed meal.

Collected my bags
    (Tube there, shared-van back),
Then carried them up
    To my top-floor shack.

A penthouse - no need,
    It did me just fine;
A cook-top and fridge,
    A table to dine.

Seated, I could watch
    The clouds roll by -
Often from the west -
    Or jets cut the sky.

There were large plane-trees,
    A squirrel or two;
And pigeons dropped by -
    Foregrounding the view.

Plus, at dawn, the sun
    Shined in from the east -
Filling the small room
    As on egg I'd feast.

And contemplating,
    It occurs to me -
If all lived that well,
    How great it would be.

But a lot do sleep
    Outdoors many nights -
On sheets of cardboard,
    Without basic rights.

From walksaboutverse.741.com

    I allowed this thread in the music section because I thought it was mostly poetry. Since it's not, I think it should move back down to the non-music section. No offense intended - it just seems to be time for it to go below the line because it's more "insider" Mudcatter stuff than music-related.
    -Joe Offer-
    13 August 2008


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:00 PM

Thanks, W. Your poem arouses clear pictures in my mind.

When my husband and I went to Europe one year (I believe it was 2004), we got the wacky idea of photographing the surfaces we were walking on. There was a 'marble' floor in Heathrow airport with beautiful fossils which we photographed. I'm sure thousands of people walk over them and never notice them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM

I've just remembered who WAV reminds me of, Arnold Rimmer.

eric


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:25 AM

I don't think Arnold Rimmer wrote poetry.

I am reminded more of Stephen Leacock...

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/oh-mr-malthus/

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-social-plan/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:53 AM

You may comment on the poetry, and even critique it. But personal attacks are not allowed. Message deleted.

WAV doesn't write poetry either..........

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

What I can't understand is, if some people don't like what is written in these threads, why they even bother to open them, much less take the time to abuse the person who starts them. I'm guessing they like to get their jollies by bullying easy targets. Or maybe the only way they are able to feel good about themselves is by belittling others.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 08:44 PM

Walkabout-

Thanks for posting this again and becoming a member.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:27 PM

Spaw is doing a public service, providing balance. :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM

As for Arnold, Eric, sorry but I rarely, if ever, watch television plays. Thanks for the Leacock poems, Carol - before and during writing "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse" I was reading/studying quite a lot of poetry (despite what my old Spawing-partner said!), but it was nearly all from an English anthology, frankly, and I'd not read any of his poems (although I knew the name).
And thanks, Charley - I've just had another message from a moderator, and this thread may be moved up to the music section, where the "walkaboutsverse" now-dead-thread was originally.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:26 AM

How does studying one anthology qualify as quite a lot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:27 AM

I never knew Red Dwarf was a television play.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM

Well what kind of television series is it then, Volgadon? And I meant that I read quite a lot of Chaucer, Milton, Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Blake, and other "big names" in the English anthology of verse. I've also read a bit of American verse, as well as Australians such as Henry Lawson.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:00 AM

Gee.... I thought it was a critique of the poetry.

Actually I agree with moving this thread out of BS. It has a place as folklore above.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

I think Red Dwarf is, or at least certainly was a vital part of English / British culture. Indeed watching it is a shared tradition among my contemporaries. Hurrah!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM

What I can't understand is, if some people don't like what is written in these threads, why they even bother to open them, much less take the time to abuse the person who starts them. I'm guessing they like to get their jollies by bullying easy targets. Or maybe the only way they are able to feel good about themselves is by belittling others

If people set themselves up as something, relentlessly promoting themselves and their life's work, then they are openly inviting and actively encouraging criticism, often entirely negative. But it's not a matter of bullying easy targets, rather one of fighting a particular ideological corner that has been breached and otherwise affronted by ideas as odiously inhumane as we find expressed in many of these poems. The only truly offensive thing we find in these threads is the reactionary ideology of the poet coupled with his seemingly desperate need for a platform for a relentless self-promotion which in itself will be regarded with various degrees of suspicion by many here given our own involvements with creative work, on whatever level.

Apart from anything else, Mudcat is a place of recreation; a place to sit around and chat, with a little bit of self-promotion here and there, but for the most part we're just getting on with what we do in our creative / professional lives and coming here for a bit crack on topics that interest and amuse us. There are other places for self-promotion and publication - and, personally, I would dearly love to see an end of it on Mudcat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

"There are other places for self-promotion and publication - and, personally, I would dearly love to see an end of it on Mudcat."


The Fooles Troupe think deeply about this and then ignore it.


THE AUTHOR


:-P


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

...is that you playing a crumhorn, FT?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:06 AM

It also might be worth taking it another step further. If you have actually visited WAV's site it needs more coherency and organiztion not available in the webspace he's using.

His works are an important example of the emerging additions to the folklore of the world and need to be hosted elsewhere so they can be more readily seen. As he is a 'Catter perhaps Max could host it here. It would save a lot of the reposting WAV has to do and instead of long threads he could be aided in making his works available to all on disc as is done with the DT.   This might be done as an adjunct to the DT which might aid in also drawing more to Mudcat.

His verses could also be accessed by several different searches if it were hosted here. This too might aid both the DT and Mudcat in visitors.



Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:30 AM

When I first posted the "walkaboutsverse" thread, Spaw, folks said I should re-do my site, with one poem per page. I've left it as an E-scroll (similar to a mudcat thread), but I did transfer it from Word to FrontPage, which cut the KBs from about 900 to about 650.
I've also tried and failed to put the lot as a myspace blog - so, instead, I have just the same Weekly Walkabout as here.
This was done with a level 1, and a bit of level 2, computer certificate behind me, on a free put-up-with-ads site, and I accept there are many who could do it better. But, once on the site, it is very easy to navigate, I think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

I'm sure Max or Dick could help you a lot with a better way to search yourwritings to help find pertinent information. I could see it as a part of the DT in a way once Max agreed to host it.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

Spaw what are you smokin'? I don't even see any kitty litter needing to be cleaned up!:->


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM

I quit smoking everything as you know darlin'..............I'm just trying to give WAV a few options here.

I think Max and Dick will see the value and importance of his life's work and try to perhaps get him aboard here so he can more easily and broadly share. Making a more searchable and accessible version of his verse cannot but help and will also bring additional interest in both the Digitrad and Mudcat. At the very least it would be a wonderful complement and valuable adjunct to the DT.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM

"...is that you playing a crumhorn, FT?"

Nope - I've been eating beans again.


Oh, the site! Sorry!

No - I obtained the music midi files from someone on the net - who has now shifted, and I have lost track of where his new site is.



"folks said I should re-do my site,"

I would totally agree.

If you look at the way I did 'The Fooles Routines' pages, that is the sort of layout I would suggest, WAV - one poem/item per HTML page. I made a basic HTML file template, then plugged in each routine. As I wrote new ones, I just wrote them straight in to the template (remember to save a backup copy of the template somewhere!). As I added each new one, I just modified the HTML index pages. I have several indexes, some by date, some by theme. You can do as many manual indexes as you want. Really, for a 'small' collection, doing it by hand that way is far less hassle than setting up some sort of live search engine!

I would also suggest that doing the HTML 'by hand' as basic as possible, using all the HTML defaults, gives the smallest file sizes - faster downloads, and more files in the storage area allowed. Most of those programs you mention add so much pointless bloated crap that you can easily shrink down to about 1/4 or less the size of 'real' (essential***) HTML. If you really paid attention to those courses, and properly read the HTML (recommend staying with HTML Ver4) manual, you can easily work it out - then it's just practice!

***HTML was intentionally designed for simplicity (assuming that the viewer would be setting all the defaults, such as fonts, sizes, colours, etc), then the 'experts' turned it into just another "Pretty Print Text Layout" mess.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:01 AM

Is there a surgeon handy who can deal with such severe cases of the Mudcat lingua franca?

SRS

(AKA tongue-in-cheek disease)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:55 AM

Spaw done jumped the shark with a weiner in his mouth this time.


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:11 AM

That's what I thought, FT - FrontPage is more efficient than Word (above), but someone who knows html could (given quite a lot of time I'd imagine) cut the KBs down again considerably, with the exact same E-scroll format (which I do prefer to 1 page/poem). The CSV course I did here was just level 1, and we learnt web-design with Word. I taught myself FrontPage (there wasn't much extra to know) when folks on mudcat and elsewhere said it was more efficient; but, yes, I believe you that there's still lots of unnecessary html in there. However, when I find a spelling mistake or suchlike, FrontPage makes it quick and easy to fix, plus more-and-more have broadband and are used to heavier sites from using myspace, etc...also, there's the keyboard and recorder fingering to more than 50 tunes to learn and, ideally, get into my head!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

Well, as it shares very little in common with plays, I would call it a comedy series.

As for poetry, that isn't really what you said.

"Well what kind of television series is it then, Volgadon? And I meant that I read quite a lot of Chaucer, Milton, Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Blake, and other "big names" in the English anthology of verse. I've also read a bit of American verse, as well as Australians such as Henry Lawson."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Either way, Volgadon, I'd rather watch (sometimes while on the computer, sometimes while practising the more difficult keyboard and recorder fingering in my repertoire) documentaries, news, tennis, or listen, via satellite, to folk radio from different parts of these isles.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:48 PM

I was just wondering why you called it a play, when it shares little of the format or style of a play. Documentaries are great, news is pointless to watch for more than a couple of times a day, sports are alright if you enjoy them and music is wonderful, but so is watching comedy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

"someone who knows HTML [note correct capitals!] could (given quite a lot of time I'd imagine) cut the KBs down again considerably,"

Not as much time as you might think. Actually it would be easier with most of those programs to just start from the beginning with a clean slate - and a PLANNED [on paper] Layout.

"The CSV course I did here was just level 1, and we learnt web-design with Word."

AAAAAGGGGGHHHH! I'm disgusted people are paid money to brain damage others with that rubbish! :-) It's NOT 'HTML' it's just an error ridden "word porncessor"! I mean it F***s up the HTML...


"FrontPage ... there's still lots of unnecessary html in there."
"when I find a spelling mistake or suchlike, FrontPage makes it quick and easy to fix"

Ah! If you want to speak French fluently, you don't think in English and translate everything - you learn to THINK IN FRENCH! If you want to write good compact correct HTML, you WRITE GOOD CORRECT HTML DIRECT! If you want, you CAN write it with just notepad, but I used NotePad Plus (even PAID for it!) under Windoze - I am looking for something else to run under Linux. The program colour coded all the correct open & close HTML 'buckets' if the syntax was correct, or it just showed black text starting where there was a problem. It also could load templates for any programming language. It thus picked up any HTML syntax spelling error instantly, while typing.


"more-and-more have broadband and are used to heavier sites from using myspace"

Ah - but people still PAY for the VOLUME (with limits), so that argument is just as hopelessly weak as the one about 'big files just load slower on dialup' - the MacroCrap Argument... just ask John in Kansas about Microsoft .... :-) I HATE 'MyCrapSpace' - and I use all sort of tools to shut off most of the graphics to speed it up, unless it is something I really WANT to see... :-) When I save a 'file' from places like there, I also get umpty dozen files of pointless useless crap in css & js files as well, that usually just DUPLICATE all the 'standard HTML defaults' anyway! ... which means that 'the author' (or their manager) doesn't really know the theory of what they are doing...   KISS! There's also less to go wrong then...


"also, there's the keyboard and recorder fingering to more than 50 tunes to learn and, ideally, get into my head"

Hmmm, you REALLY need to think, if learning tunes always seems so difficult, are you really a 'muso'? :-(

50? 50 ?!! 50??!!!!! Only 50 !!!!? I play about a dozen different instruments, and never bother about learning things off by heart, after all I learnt by 'the classical method' where it is usually expected that you will have the dots as a mainly unlooked at 'security blanket' anyway. That said I can play thousands of tunes (different ones on each instrument) without music, but the hassle is remembering the way they start... :-) Of course I can also extemporise endlessly, as I used to do on Pipe Organ instead of playing from sheet music during the Walkout - wait on, I mean after the service finished! :-)

Of course, we all have to start somewhere, and the first few years are always the hardest...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:53 AM

Thanks, FT, and, yes, as the months go by, I am getting a bit quicker/better at learning a new tune from the score; memorising it (which is a folky thing, but, apparently, also the trend in classical music); and mimicking, on recorder/keys, my Chants from Walkabouts (I've about half of these simple tunes "worked out", I think?!).
Having read your info. on HTML, I opened the "walkaboutsverse" dead-thread, which closed just short of a 1000 posts, and, for comparison, did a right-click of my mouse for "properties" - it said about 1300KB, which made me think that maybe my FrontPage version is not that inefficient at about 650KB for 230 poems..?
I think others did that same level 1 course on web-design, at the CSV, on FrontPage, and I've heard others say we should not have been learning on Word. But, as I say, there was not much extra to learn when I did transfer to FrontPage.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:12 AM

The trend?????? Eh? Most musicians try to memorise the tunes they play, at least partways. Classical music tends to emphasize exactness, and is of considerable length, so naturally you use sheet music a lot.

"memorising it (which is a folky thing, but, apparently, also the trend in classical music);"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:13 AM

"memorising it (which is a folky thing, but, apparently, also the trend in classical music"

Actually the Prima Donna Soloists have always done it in Classical Music, but 'Session Musos' in all genres have always been good 'sight readers'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:52 AM

I was thinking of the BBCs young musician of the year competition, which is mostly classical and once involved a senior judge criticising a young classical musician for NOT sight reading. And, in the last one, the Beeb showed (perhaps too much) how the students prepared, with visualisation techiniques being popular. Thus, I stand by what I said regarding a trend toward playing-by-heart in the classical scene, more than in the past (which that judge also noted).
Would you both agree, FT and Volgadon, that the ideal "in all genres" is to be able to sight-read and play-by-ear well?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:05 AM

Regarding the need to read music, I'm reminded of the old story about the very famous country music bass player in Nashville, who was asked on arriving at a recording session 'Do you read music?'. The reply? 'Not enough to hurt my playing'.
As with so many things, a search for absolutes and 'ideal' situations seems futile. There are just too many variables; live or recording studio? Music genre? Structured or improvisation? Solo or ensemble? The good news is it seems to be possible to succeed in music with or without the ability to read music. The real determinants seem to be talent, motivation, dedication and a degree of originality.
Incidentally WAV; well done for not mentioning your website in your last post.
Tim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:13 AM

Also Tim,

In a 'restricted music genre' some musos only need to know the 'formula' to make their part fit in the ensemble,e.g. some parts need only the chord progression, not the melody as such.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:40 AM

Hi Foolestroupe! Agreed; in something like the blues, or country, or even traditional tunes, there is an underlying formula that tends to dictate the structure. The people I consider to be really talented seem to be able to play outside the patterns and switch readily between genres, and are able to be proficient in the new genre almost immediately. Gardner (see here) has a theory of mutiple intelligences, suggesting that our traditional idea of academic intelligence is too limited. One of his 'intelligences' is a musical intelligence. Perhaps this exists independently of the ablity to sight read?
Tim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:04 AM

"The real determinants seem to be talent, motivation, dedication and a degree of originality."...now that really IS idealistic, Mandotim...you don't see any taut-tushed mimers making a fortune from the music industry - I think there's heaps of hype...

"Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support" (from here).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:12 AM

Perhaps this exists independently of the ability to sight read?

Let's hope so! This is a particular bugbear with me as, try as I might, I cannot understand musical notation in any shape or form. I think there's a defective gene, or some sort of dyslexic thing going on in what I laughingly call my brain that has been a scourge and embarrassment for my entire life. If I hated music this wouldn't be a problem of course, much less if I wasn't a pretender to the cause in terms of experimental, medieval & folkish idioms, but I console myself with the thoughts that musical notation is a comparatively recent development in terms of western history anyway, emerging with regard to the medieval scholastic tradition and developing into the music we now think of as Classical, which by definition includes all Western derived Art Music of the last nine hundred years.

Meanwhile, the non-literate Non-Art Music existed by virtue of some other process, evolving out of the melismatic modal crooning of the Indo-European hunter-gatherers which somehow sang itself into existence like birdsong and of which we still find an echo in the Irish sean nos or the Sami joik, or in the Muezzin calling the faithful to prayer, which, in turn, works its way into the Revival of British Folk Song via Ewan McColl trying to get some of that into his own singing, and urging others to do likewise. This other thing we think of as the Oral Tradition is not simply a matter of playing by ear, rather being a part of a transfigurative process of dissemination by which the thing itself undergoes a vibrant renewal with each new birth, both individually, and collectively, which is the essence of the process we might think of as being Folk Music. Once we write it down it's dead on the page; it's a relic in a museum, but not without its own persuasive mediumistic potency should we be successful in raising the spectres of ages past in that most glorious of Seances we call The Singaround, or, for those of an instrumental bent, The Session.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:21 AM

WAV, I won't apologise for seeming idealistic :)! However, there is some pragmatism here as well; if you look at those performers who have sustained a career beyond the ephemeral world of the one or two hit wonder, there is generally a degree of real musical ability there, either in the performer themselves or in those who play/arrange/produce the music for them. I'm able to ignore (mostly) the taut tushed mimers, as you put it, and listen to what's actually going on in the music. A good example here is K T Tunstall, an English singer/songwriter. She could be viewed as a lightweight pop singer, but no; she is older than the norm, and has done the hard work of gigging with a band for some years before getting a break. 'Manufactured' boy/girl singing groups tend not to sustain, although they make a lot of money while they can. Those who do sustain tend to have talent; have you ever heard Westlife singing a capella with no amplification? I took my youngest daughter to see them some years ago. They stepped out from the mikes, and filled a large theatre with a really glorious sound.
There is a danger here though, and that's the pernicious practice of sampling the work of others and putting it out as your own; the recent offering from Kid Rock springs to mind, a blatant sample of Warren Zevon's Werewolves of London. Anyone with a mixer and a computer can do this now, thanks to digital technology, and it worries me that there is less incentive to develop original talent as a result.
Regarding the determinants; I forgot 'luck'!
Back to promoting your website I see. Sigh.
Tim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM

I agree in part, again, Tim - but the examples you give are people from these parts practising American culture instead of their own (as The Beatles were very good at). As a multiculturalist, I admire much more folks from around the world who are good at THEIR OWN culture.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM

For me, when the recorder was my main instrument, I practiced until the fingering became second nature and I never really had to think about it any more. And then, once that happened, all I had to do was know a melody in my head, and if I could whistle it, I could play it on the recorder. Which, I guess, is another way of saying I tended to play by ear. I could do this with any simple melody, but much longer classical pieces, I had difficulty with playing because I couldn't memorize them very well, and I never was able to read music for the recorder.

I can read music for the accordion, and I do (mostly for the basses, which I sometimes have difficulty memorizing), but I can play a melody on the keyboard side by ear (if I can whistle it, I can play it). I'm sure that's because I've been playing on keyboards since I was a child and the notes have become second nature on that instrument as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

It didn't take me long to teach myself, in my late 30s, to sight-read (only the top-line melody, mind) but I find playing-by-ear/mimicking my above-mentioned Chants much more difficult (I'd earlier simply found a way to sing/chant my verses without being able to read or write music). On the other hand, someone sat next to me at a folk-club, who can't sight-read, worked out the fingering for a folk-song literally within minutes of me singing it - I guess it's at least partly knowing the instrument very well, as you say, Carol.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM

WAV, I wish you would get off your one-note melody about Englishness; I'm trying to have a rational and friendly discussion here. KT Tunstall; have you ever heard her sing? Do you know what she sings about? Her songs are about her experience here, in England. Westlife are Irish, and I didn't name the song I used as an example. It was a traditional Irish air, sung unaccompanied, with words by an Irishman. How was that 'American culture'?
Are you saying that the whole of the Beatles canon was American? Have you ever been to Penny Lane? Do you know where Strawberry Fields is?
I'm going to leave this thread now, because I'm always bored by monomaniacs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

WAV, nearly every aspect of English cultutre has it's roots somewhere else in the world. Morriss dancing is a case in point, as is tennis. Your very recorder is another case in point, a foreign instrument used to play courtly music brought over from Europe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

Here's a couple of websites I designed and built using only some CSS I stole from other sites and HTML. I've not ever used any tools for building websites, and while mine are far from professional, it shows that someone with little or no training can build a workable website without using any tools (everything I know, I learned from a book on HTML, from studying other people's websites, and some basic stuff from the Mudcat). The first one uses a free service and as one can see, the ads aren't too intrusive, and they can even be hidden by the person viewing the page...

http://www.geocities.com/kevan_tolley/index.htm

http://www.alcdv.com/ArtFurniture.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

THose are very nice web pages, Carol!


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

I don't understand this 'written music versus learning by ear thing'. Nobody complains or argues about the written word, why this friction about writing music down, or being able to read it? And what's this absolute rubbish about written music being an anathema to the 'folk process'? You think 'cos some one writes a melody down it'll never be improvised upon, nor evolve in any way??? Puh-lease...

Really guys, get over the whole written music thing. It's a tool and like any other, works extremely well for those who learn to use it properly. If you don't wanna use it, fine, but don't turn not using written music into an idealistic 'folk banner' to march behind. Sheesh...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

THEIR OWN culture

Here's the universal cultural formula, WAV: Culture = What Folks Do.

Its the doing of it that makes it their own, rather than any nationalistic provenance which can always be proven to be at best spurious, at worst specious.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

I thought KT Tunstall and Westlife perform in the pop style, which is one of the American genres. This is not to say I've never enjoyed any American pop - Avril Lavigne, e.g., is a great American singer, in my opinion.
On my computer, I had trouble with your first site, Carol, but like your other one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

She's Canadian, when you obviously mean from the USA.
Here are some things supposedly traditionally English:
Morris dances- Of Spanish origin, possibly from North Africa too.
Tennis- Developement of a French game.
Recorders- The earliest examples were discovered along the Northern Seaboard and the Baltics, including Poland. The earliest image of one comes from the Balkans. Most of the innovations in it's developement were carried out by the French, most of the makers were German. Most of the music was italianate, even when composed by Englishmen!! They, obviously, were not practising their own culture.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:29 PM

Er, excuse me WAV. Why do you consider anything that could be classified as 'pop music' to be american and not a product of the culture in this (British Isles) country even if that's where the artists influences are from? It's vastly over simplistic to equate any one single country with genres this way. Are you going to attempt to say that there are no european influences in american folk music???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

What browser was being used then the Kevan Tolley site was opened?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

This particular rant would be appropriate on any one of a number of threads here on Mudcat, but since the subject has come up, this is as good a place as any.

< rant >

lady penelope is exactly right about the "written music versus learning by ear" thing. But, of course, it's not "versus," it's "plus." Any aspiring musician who either refuses or can't be bothered to learn to read music is intentionally handicapping himself or herself. You limit yourself to having to learn songs either from other people (often used as a justification by folkies because, "after all, folk music is supposed to be orally/aurally transmitted"—for urban-born singers who didn't grow up in the oral tradition, when did that become Holy Writ!??), or from recordings of other singers. It was this limitation that prompted me to learn to read music—because I had a whole book case full of song books (Sandburg, Lomax, Sharp, et al) that were useful to me only if I had heard the song before and already knew the tune. Learning to read music freed me from that narrow restriction and opened the whole field to me.

And the misconception that learning a song from written music means that you are limited to singing it only the way it is written is almost too dumb to bother refuting. But here goes:   listen to a number of actors, say Lawrence Olivier, John Gielgud, Derek Jacoby, do Hamlet's soliloquy (learned from a book or script). Same words, same content—but quite different in pace and emphasis. Or operatic tenors, say Placido Domingo, Ferrucio Tagliavini, Jussi Bjorling sing "Che Gelida Manina" from La Boheme (learned from an operatic score). Quite individual in style and approach. They all "dink around" with note-values, pace, and general approach. Each singer or actor puts his or her own individual stamp on the work.

I don't know how many folkies I've heard who, when they've learned a song from a Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez record, do their damnedest to sing it exactly the way Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez recorded it.

The written music is a starting point and a learning aid. It is not a set of handcuffs. Unless you make it so!

Learning to read music is not that difficult, once you get over your prejudices and misconceptions. And it is an extremely valuable tool for any musician.

####

And as to the matter of "Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane. . . ." and what follows, displays substantial ignorance about what it takes to be a performing musician.

Segovia was able to command some pretty high fees for his concerts. So, by the hour, his pay seems to be "ridiculous and inhumane" compared to the singer of folk songs who performs mainly as a hobby and picks up the occasional tenner for doing a gig. But Segovia practiced six hours a day. Every day. Year after year, for every year that he performed. And this was time that he didn't get paid for.

How many singers of folk songs do you know who practice six hours a day, every day?

Can you imagine the amount of money that Van Cliburn (or his parents) spent on piano lessons as he was growing up? He also put in many hours a day at the keyboard. Hours for which there was no pay.

If you total up the amount of money spent on lessons, often the tuition paid and time spend in music schools and conservatories, and the number of hours that these musicians put in to eventually get those "ridiculous and inhumane" fees—and then, divide that into what they earn—earn—you may be very surprised to find out how small their "hourly wage" is, after expenses!!

And I'm not talking about only classical musicians here. Bruce Springsteen and the band he works with start rehearsals—yes, rehearsals— regularly, at nine o'clock in the morning. The Greatful Dead? Same sort of "woodshed" time put in. Kenny Rogers and the First Edition? Almost all of the more successful, highly paid performers in most fields put in the time and the work.

". . . talent, motivation, and dedication. . . ."

So, unless you have the motivation and the dedication, and are willing to invest the time, the money, and the energy, then don't bitch about the "ridiculous and inhumane" pay that these artists get.

If you pick up the guitar (or whatever) three or four times a week and practice for forty-five minutes, and learn a new song (from a record) and practice it for an hour or two before you can sing it without goofing it up, just count yourself damned lucky if someone is willing to toss a couple of quarters into your hat to hear you sing it.

< /rant >

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM

Love your rant Don.

1) Agree with you about 'learning the dots' totally. I knew everything before I went to University...

2) Rate of Pay. One of the reasons I lost interest in going to folk clubs was the expressed lack of interest by others in getting together 'for rehearsal'. "Ya don't HAVE to think, Ya gotta just open up yer arse and let the music fall out".... :-P (and that's usually just the sort of result ya get!) :-)

And I have noticed that many 'self taught folkies' just don't get what 'rehearsal' IS. Perhaps I have been 'spoiled' by my Classical Music Upbringing (like only eating Beluga Caviare, perhaps!). In which case I thank my lucky stars that I WAS 'spoiled'!!!

'Rehearsal' is not just playng the notes over again and again without change in tempo or expression as fast as you can till the other musos run screaming from the room. (Hmmm, that also sounds like many 'sessions' I have been to!)

'Rehearsal' involves thought. If you don't understand that, I'm not going to bother wasting my time explaining that. And it involves fear, excitement, discovery, boredom, etc.

When I had been taking piano lessons for a couple of years, and still in single digits, I began to think that I was pretty hot shit. "Hey Dad, look how fast I can play" I said.

My Dad stopped what he was doing, said to Mum, "This is very important", got out his violin, tuned it (and without any other warmup) took his bow, placed it on a string at the frog, and pulled a VERY SLOW bow, in perfect tune, in perfect pitch, no waver or squawk, that took what seemed like AGES (several minutes)!

"Son", he said, "Any ignorant Fool can play loud and fast, but to play slow and soft and well takes talent, training and practice". I have never forgot that. Pity that most I stumble across who think they are 'hot shit musos' don't seem to have been 'spoiled' like me.


"I don't know how many folkies I've heard who, when they've learned a song from a Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez record, do their damnedest to sing it exactly the way Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez recorded it."

This is a substantial victory for the owners of 'The Recording Industry' - hollow but overwhelming.


"Almost all of the more successful, highly paid performers in most fields put in the time and the work."

Which sadly means that most of us are 'Just Amateurs'... :-)


"I used to be good once, but now I'm out of practice!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

I've been involved a couple of times with attempts to put "folk groups" together, and the stumbling block has always been an unwillingness for one or more (usually more) to rehearse sufficiently, if at all!

We'd manage to get through a song once without somebody screwing up (that's just the beginning of rehearsing), then a couple of people would start to pack up their instruments and say, "That sounded great! Okay, let's go grab a beer!" Or the attempt when one person, a fairly well-known singer in the area at the time, never bothered to show up for rehearsals. The implication was "You folks need the practice. But I'm a pro, and I don't." Or the times I showed up at a potential singing partner's apartment ready to practice, and her roommate tells me, "Oh, she's not here. She went skiing this afternoon."

That's why I work solo.

About the only times I've been able to work with someone else successfully was when our performances consisted mainly of swapping solos with a little banter between, interspersed with occasional duets. Because we were not always able to get together as often as we needed to, this sort of programming did seem to work pretty well.

I really have to hand it to groups that actually manage to get it off the ground. First, you have to want to get together, then you have to be able to get together, then when and if you do get together, you have to be willing to work until you get it to the point where you're all satisfied with what you've accomplished and people are willing to pay to hear you sing.

And when it comes to individual performances, if there is a lack of consistent practice, it really shows!

Don Firth

P. S. Of course, I'm talking performing professionally here. If I person just wants to sing and play for fun, then you have to decide how far you want to take it. Just sing in your own bedroom, sing for your family, sing at parties with a few friends, or post stuff on MySpace or YouTube? Great! But still, if you're going to ask that other folks listen to you, you want to do it well enough so they don't sit there writhing and flinching, right?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

You're Evil Don.... :-)

I like you.... :-P


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM

Thanks, Robin! It's nice to be appreciated.

Yeah, some folks find these reality sandwiches kind of bitter-tasting. . . .

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:53 AM

What, like cucumber sandwiches?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:01 AM

Here is an extract from a fun novel, an icon of Englishness, which, coincidentally, was written by a foreigner. D-d Hungarians.....

"It do seem more like April than September, don't it?" continued Mr. Hempseed, dolefully, as a shower of raindrops fell with a sizzle upon the fire.

"Aye! that it do," assented the worth host, "but then what can you `xpect, Mr. `Empseed, I says, with sich a government as we've got?"

Mr. Hempseed shook his head with an infinity of wisdom, tempered by deeply-rooted mistrust of the British climateand the British Government.

"I don't `xpect nothing, Mr. Jellyband," he said. "Pore folks like us is of no account up there in Lunnon, I knows that, and it's not often as I do complain. But when it comes to sich wet weather in September, and all me fruit a-rottin' and a-dying' like the `Guptian mother's first born, and doin' no more good than they did, pore dears, save a lot more Jews, pedlars and sich, with their oranges and sich like foreign ungodly fruit, which nobody'd buy if English apples and pears was nicely swelled. As the Scriptures say--"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:12 AM

Yeah, some folks find these reality sandwiches kind of bitter-tasting

With respect, Don, we don't all share your particular reality, which, judging from your rant, and the above statement, is a very different reality to my own. Your sandwiches are only bitter tasting in respect of the narrow-minded absolutism they embody; hard won no doubt, but I've always found that folk music is best served by non-musicians, certainly non-musos, for whom professionalism is a complete anathema.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:22 AM

Carol - Internet Explorer 6.
Don - I read all with interest and agree with some of what you said, but standby what I said: there are taut tushed mimers who have made a fortune, whilst many genuine musicians have struggled to make ends meet, from the music industry; and, accordingly (pardon the pun), if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. Have you read much John "business is glorified theft" Steinbeck? For a better way for humanity, I refer you to my snippet on REGULATIONISM above &/or my life's work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:26 AM

WAV, I looked at your life's work and was reminded by your poem on Moroccan tea about another bit of English culture that began elsewhere.
Tea drinking. A Muslim/Turkish tradition!!!!!! So, were all those tea-sippers not practising THEIR OWN CULTURE?
Oh well, back to oranges and such like foreign ungodly fruit, which nobody would buy if English apples and pears were nicely swelled.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:33 AM

Ah - what I was saying about websites - KISS...

From Plenty of bagging for grocery website

The new GROCERYchoice website keeps a Labor election promise to provide consumers with more information about grocery prices. But it has provoked a HEROC complaint from a disabled guy that he can't read it or otherwise access it - in contravention of the Govt guidleines about disability accessibility to Govt websites! :-)

It's bloated full of fancy tricks and cute graphics, and I even broke it looking up something simple - so I sent in a complaint direct to the ACCC too! :-)

KISS...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM

First off, a slight correction to mandotim-KT Tunstall is Scottish.

Ok, I'm going to say this again for WAV's benefit because when he says, "As a multiculturalist, I admire much more folks from around the world who are good at THEIR OWN culture," he gets me going, and not in a good way. On another thread of WAV's creation, I wrote this,

"On your website too I saw something about World Music-"World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other. You do realize that word, unfused is a real difficult one to use in context of music. West African music does not follow a colonialism rule. You can say someone is from Guinea-Bissau, or Mali, or Senegal, but the music itself comes from an ancient source that predates those names for countries we now know. Thus someone like Toumani Diabate's lineage of griots comes from the area we now know to be Mali, but was not Mali until 1960, before he was even born. The same can be said in Europe. Ever hear regional European music WAV? Do you realize that there has been so much polinization in European music that you can have someone from regions of France singing in Italian, or someone from Sardinia singing in Catalan? See? unfused doesn't work when you have music that by a map says it belongs in one country, while culturally, actually belongs in another. So your stated belief that different nationalities should present their own native, unfused music to each other, is in actuality, a deluded belief that music stops at border checkpoints, even the ones that didn't exist until the 20th century."

I have also asked you repeatedly, on several threads now, to clarify when you say you admire folks doing music from their own culture. Does that mean that the old English, Scots, and Irish ballads that are found, and sung to this day in places like Kentucky, or Newfoundland should be abandoned? Because following your rules, one can say that those folk who do sing those songs, are abandoning the native culture of their own country. That's not what I think, I find it fascinating that, as for example Richard Thompson saying that an old ballad, King Henry, was found pretty much intact in rural Kentucky. So you have Americans singing about a tribute due to the king of France, and tennis balls, and all sorts of strange things that are in the original variants of the song.

I will also say that, in its most simplest explanation, Rock is an American form. Again, I say simple, because we know its roots go far deeper than that, if one wants to go there. But will you deny the effect rock can have at this point on all cultures? Case in point is Runrig. Using an American form, they have energized and in some way, revitalized Scottish Gaelic, in their 30 + years. Will you honestly stand here and tell me that there is something wrong with that, because they are using an "american" form? Rory Macdonald, and at the time Donnie Munro (Bruce Guthro actually has a lilt, but its not quite the same) have not, nor ever will be considered Americans in their singing style, they are Scots through and through. So would you dismiss them, and all they have accomplished because they are singing songs about their own culture and history and language (including singing in that language)simply because they use an American form to express it by?

Ponder this if you will please WAV. Please don't answer with a link to your website. I HAVE been on it, I have read most of it. I seek to understand, and I seek to debate your points, not be redirected to the source of the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

Comment:
I despise mime but even I know that it takes years of study to become one of the few who "make Millions". I have the same difficulty with some blues, some jazz, and some classical music - doesn't make it bad. Doesn't mean that the artists haven't earned their keep nor does it mean that someone, whose craft I prefer, deserves it more than they do.

Or have I misunderstood?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

Some (and most who play at a live no-miming events like Glastonbury) in pop ARE genuine musicians, Sinsull, but anyone who has ever tuned into one of those pop-chart type shows would know that others are clearly not - yet they may have made a quick fortune while other genuine musicians have struggled.
I'd rather Runrig perform their Scottish lyrics that you mention, IE, in a Scottish, rather than American, form, frankly. And, if both can sound good, why not chose the form from one's own neck-of-the-woods and, thereby, help keep our world nice and multicultural. This is nothing new, of course - many reading this will know as well or better than I the perform-your-own policies of 50s and 60s folk-clubs here.
And, to Volgadon, fair-trade of fruit, etc., is very much a part of the WAV way. So, on that one, she's apples, as they may still say in Aus.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

WAV, what part of England are you originally from?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

It's in my opening blank verse poem, Volgadon, but, briefly, I was born in Manchester - actually the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

Volgadon,

WAV is originally from Manchester, I think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM

Yet again WAV, you seemingly will not, or cannot answer what are important questions or comments to your life's work. Do you believe that music has border checkpoints, that musical styles, and instrumentation, and subject matter are limited to the modern boundaries in which we now live? Do you believe that multiculturism is best achieved by imposing the harshest of limitations on something meant to be as universally enjoyed as music? Do you believe that, given the choice between the death of culture and language of this modern age versus the (in your view) notion of purity is really a good option? Do you believe that there has been no cross-pollinization in music up to now, that it is only this beast that we generically call "Rock" that has caused the fusion in music that you so dislike?

You also entirely missed my point about Runrig. What truely makes the Scottish form WAV? Highland or lowland? Bagpipes? Accordion? Jimmy Shand? Do you know Runrig WAV? Ok, I'm a fan, others may not be, but they are a good example for this discussion. They were certainly not the first to deliberately write songs in Scottish Gaelic (I believe that was Ossian?), but what they have helped to do is bring new life to a language that was struggling. You'd rather complain about how puristic notions make a nice multicultural world, rather than saying how awesome it is that a 15 year old kid is singing along to a Gaelic song, and maybe, just maybe-learning some of the language. Your notions of multiculturism are flawed because you impose your own sets of standards and limitations on things that I don't think you fully grasp. You can quote me all the countries you have visited, and all your Aboriginal and Native American friends on your myspace page, but that doesn't matter to me. What matters is that music and culture and language grow, day by day, year by year. Linguistically, I'm sure you have words in your vocabulary that literally did not exist as little as 10 years ago. Someone, somewhere makes up a word, it enters common usage, and next thing you know, it gets put in the dictionary as an accepted part of our language. Do you not think that happens with music WAV? Do you not think because music does not stand still, but rather, progresses, that there are bound to be changes and evolution in musical form, instrumentation, rhythm, recording, presentation and so on?
Multiculturism is alive and well, just not in the way that YOU PERSONALLY wish it to go. I think we'll get along fine though. I've got history on my side for that one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Then why do you sing songs that aren't from Manchester???

"Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national. Our forebears were loyal to this when

they formed the English Folk Dance and Song Society, as have been contemporary Scots

by forming a Degree in Scottish Traditional Music. Further, I'm told several of our earliest

folk-clubs strongly encouraged participants to select from their own culture"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM

"Narrow-minded absolutism!???" Well, that's pretty harsh! In what way is what I have posted "narrow-minded absolutism?" Please explain.

Insane Beard, apparently you skipped my footnote above where I said that I'm speaking specifically about those who aspire to be professional musicians. And that's regardless of whether they perform folk music, opera, classical, jazz, or whatever. If you sing strictly for your own enjoyment or the enjoyment of friends and family, with no interest in singing gigs (in other words, a "real folk singer"), that's a whole different thing.

If you are expecting people to come to hear you perform, and you are charging them money to do so, you owe it to them to give them their money's worth. Which means that you know your material and that you present it well. You may regard yourself as a "folk singer," but in this situation, you are an entertainer (AND if you can slip them a little education and authenticity at the same time, that's much to the good!).

As to whether folk music is best served by amateurs, and that professionalism is an anathema to it, is most debatable indeed. A professional, after all, is someone who receives sufficient payment for what he or she does to make a living at it. It is generally through professional singers of folk songs that interest in folk music is spread.

I know a fair number of people who were actually turned off to folk music when their introduction consisted of hearing some field recordings—or live performances or recordings by some of the more 'rough-and-ready" singers. But later, upon hearing some of the same songs sung by professional singers, or singers who, even if not pursuing singing careers, might be considered "professional quality," they became actively interested themselves. With this as an introduction, they later went on to listen to field records and rougher-edged singers with new ears.

The following are two quotes from singers of folk songs that I think might be enlightening and edifying:

One is from Rolf Cahn, a singer from whom, in just a few brief encounters, I learned a great deal back in the late 1950s.
The most ticklish question still results from that awful word "Folk Music", which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to "Western Pop" music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.

Most of us agree in feeling as to our general boundaries, but more and more we search for our own particular contributions as musicians within these variegated provinces. There doesn't seem to be much point in imitating-what, after all, is the point of doing Little Moses exactly like the Carter Family? Yet it seems vital to convey the massive, punching instrumentals and the tense driving, almost hypnotic voice of the Carter Family performances.

One the one hand, there is the danger of becoming a musical stamp collector; on the other, the equal danger of leaving behind the language, texture, and rhythm that made the music worthy of our devotion in the first place. So we have arrived at a point where in each case we try to determine those elements which make a particular piece of music meaningful to us, and to build the performance through these elements. By continuing to learn everything possible of the art form-techniques, textures, rhythms, cultural implications and conventions, we hope to mature constantly in our individual understanding and creativity in this music.
And the other is from Richard Dyer-Bennet (granted that the classically trained Dyer-Bennet is not everyone's cup of tea, nevertheless, what he says below is most certainly true).
The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect.
Amen.

By the way, there is a term that I've encountered here on Mudcat only within the past few months, and it seems to be used mostly by British or Australians. The term is "muso." I couldn't find it in any dictionary, so I tried to chase it down on the internet, the best I could come up with is "The term 'Muso' is slang commonly used in Australia and England. It refers to a young musician."

The way I see it used here on Mudcat, it seems to be used as a pejorative. What, exactly, do people mean when they use this term?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:15 AM

I'm a 'recycled muso' Don.
To Quote from my thread (oh dear, now he's at it too!)

"A Recycled Muso is a person who has already learnt to play one Musical Instrument, and is starting to learn another."

I never saw the word as pejorative, not sure that other Aussies intend it to be pejorative either. It's a fairly common sort of Aussie slang where we shorten words like 'musician' to muso'.

"If you are expecting people to come to hear you perform, and you are charging them money to do so, you owe it to them to give them their money's worth. Which means that you know your material and that you present it well."
"A professional, after all, is someone who receives sufficient payment for what he or she does to make a living at it"

Having spent some considerable time working in Amateur Theatre, I can assure you that many such unpaid people DO have a very "Professional" Attitude. That is, they 'owe it to their audience to give them their money's worth. Which means that they know their material and that they present it well.' If you want REAL AMATEURS in theatre, I suggest you look up Mr Green's "The Art of Coarse Acting" to gain an understanding of the difference. I have been so bold as to previously suggest that WAV is truly "A Coarse Folk Singer".

QUOTE
A coarse actor is "one who can remember his lines, but not the order in which they come. One who performs . . . amid lethal props. The Coarse Actor's aim is to upstage the rest of the cast. His hope is to be dead by Act Two so that he can spend the rest of his time in the bar. His problems? Everyone else connected with the production." (Michael Green)
UNQUOTE

You can make your own translation...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM

Do these sound anything but Russian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKdYLvt1wsY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcwcayA_PW0&feature=related
His influences are from all over, including India and even Richard Thompson and Steeleye!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:06 AM

Do these sound anything but Israeli?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0tnSgv-EE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbNj0DleE_I


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM

Do these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFlVBOPncmc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gwRmyEZxI

Sorry for the numerous posts, Mudcat isn't letting me put them all in one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

What about these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGdlP1xuy40&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4LUZPculgQ&feature=related


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

Here is a blatant example of an Israeli not practising his own culture, but having a go at multi-culturalism. The horrors! It's a stupendous track. His then-current girlfriend was Irish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnA6oKC6is

Here is one that has a few Irish pop-ish numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAfD0Jj6dwQ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:09 AM

Last one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yTQRlZTUTM&feature=related


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM

To FT - in agreement with what you say of amateur theatre, in Newcastle upon Tyne we have an amatear People's Theatre, whose quality is excellent, I think. However, call me a coarse folkie if you will, but I'm still scratching my head over your "coarse actors" definition..?!
To IE - as you may have noticed, in China they now have rap, rock and pop groups, which are becoming more-and-more popular among youngsters who may otherwise be performing their own culture; although, thankfully, at the opening ceremony, we did get a good taste of traditional Chinese culture - and I do hope and pray for plenty of our own culture in London; but, going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony, I do worry about this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

and I do hope and pray for plenty of our own culture in London

Out of genuine curiosity, Wav, what would you present by way of a taste of English culture?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

This question is open to all by the way - to compile your own Taste of English Culture...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

That's no answer WAV. You may be right about what gets presented at the 2012 opening ceremony, but once again, you have diverted my questions into another topic. My points had nothing to do with the Olympics. If you're so concerned why don't you join the organizing committee? I probably asked you about 10 perfectly reasonable questions yesterday, it would be nice if you could answer at least one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM

WAV, you do realise that Chinese opera superceded traditional music?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony

Manchester is a very pop city, WAV, giving us some of the finest & uniquely English popular music of all time; The Smiths, The Fall, Joy Division, New Order, Oasis, Freddy & the Dreamers, Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, The Hollies et al. See Here for a full list...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

Morris Dancing to an English concertina; an unaccompanied version of Country Life and/or the shanty Homeward Bound, to which everyone in the stadium would be given the words to the chorus/refrain; mass clog dancing to a penny whistle, a coalliery brass band playing English Country Gardens, whilst actors picnic in some kind of creation of a cottage garden, perhaps also containing a whopping Green Man; English actors reciting some of our many fine poets and playwrights; a mass of costumed folk forming a huge Constable - The Haywain, maybe...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

"going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony" (me).

Manchester is a very pop city, WAV, giving us some of the finest & uniquely English popular music of all time; The Smiths, The Fall, Joy Division, New Order, Oasis, Freddy & the Dreamers, Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, The Hollies et al. See Here for a full list...(IB)...frankly, as with Ewan MacColl, I, from Manchester way, would rather ramble; and pop derived from AMERICAN religious music - The Beatles even tried talking in American accents! God help us.
To IE: I listen to quite a lot of Scottish Gaelic radio, and it's mostly authentic unaccompanied singing but also with Scottish pipes, harps, etc. - the only thing I don't like is the Scottish Gaelic tradition of mimicking Amerindian/native American chants and drums.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

Why not Stubbs? I know who could play what part.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

Here's a Whopping Green Man as found in the Scarecrow Festival in the village of Wray, Lancashire, back in May. Methinks he's a very modern take on the traditional Green Man of British folk custom, but handsomely impressive nevertheless. I would have thought with you being of Mancunian origin you would have went for Lowry rather than Constable...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:27 PM

To IE: I listen to quite a lot of Scottish Gaelic radio, and it's mostly authentic unaccompanied singing but also with Scottish pipes, harps, etc. - the only thing I don't like is the Scottish Gaelic tradition of mimicking Amerindian/native American chants and drums.

Oh lord, where do I even start with this one?!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

The Beatles even tried talking in American accents

As does Eric Burdon but I still reckon he's one of the finest blues singers ever, and a credit to his native Tyneside.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

Can you give me a specific example of the Scottish Gaelic tradiion of mimicking Amerindian chants and drums?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

By far not my favourite band, but this track always seemed very Noel Coward-ish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMz-wi50ACU
It's probably worth pointing out that he (Coward) emulated or borrowed from American music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

One wonders what WAV would think of the Armenian Navy Band.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:12 PM

IE - the Gaels do mimick Amerindian chants and drums, I promise. It derives partly from an empathy over loss of lands, etc., but, still, I don't like it - however, as I say, most of what I hear on Gaelic radio, via satellite, is very enjoyable indeed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Well... as I have tried pointing out to him, how does he feel about music that comes from a wide diaspora of shared culture, not ethnicity? Sephardic and Ladino music for one. Virtually all throughout Europe you have tradition and language from the past that linger on hundreds of years later. Thus a singer like the wonderful Elena Ledda from Sardinia sings much material in Catalan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

Arto Tuncboyaciyan of the aforementioned Armenian Navy Band is an interesting case. An Armenian from Turkey, he plays in a wide variety of styles, from traditional, to Jazz, to Mediterranean, to rock, but he plays it as an Armenian. He isn't a slave to music, especially to a notion of this is folk music because this is supposedly how it was played since the days of blessed St Mesrop and time immemorial, but he makes whatever he plays Armenian. WAV, if you were to try and tell an Armenian that this music isn't real Armenian, but a borrowing of other cultures, they would laugh in your face.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM

Some glories of English music.

A couple of thoughts - well, three. First, the form of WAV's observations is unappealing; they seem to consist of an endless list of things people shouldn't do and people who should stop doing them. Word to the wise: if you don't like Runrig/the Beatles/the Fall, try not listening to them. More to the point, don't talk about them - talk about the musicians you do like, if there are any.

Second, the content of what WAV has to say isn't just peevish and negative; I think it's also profoundly unhistorical. I love the music that was made in England (and Scotland, and Ireland) a hundred and more years ago, but that country isn't there any more. As well as a land of ploughboys and milkmaids, England was the heart of vast trading network and a global empire. Those things can't be wished away, and nor can their consequences - which include a high degree of multicultural cross-pollination (see links above). To say that English culture in 2008 is clog-dancing and Constable isn't quaint or eccentric, it's just false.

Third, who cares what WAV thinks anyway? Why do we keep coming back to play whack-a-mole with him?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM

Having taken a few anthropology courses when I was in school, I am a bit confused as to just what "English culture" is.

What is generally regarded as the first piece of English literature is an epic poem, Beowulf, author unknown. Written in Old English, but the hero is a Dane and most of the action takes place in what is now Denmark and Sweden. I've heard the speculation that it may have been written originally in Danish (or Old Norse) and someone translated it into Old English. So the first work of English literature may not be English at all.

Considering that we--even WAV--can all be traced back (via mitochondrial DNA) to an African woman some 200,000 years ago, no matter how you slice it, Britain is a land of immigrants. Very little is known about the first peoples to populate the British Isles. Were these the builders of stone circles, or did they come later? Then came the Celts from the European continent. Then came the Angles. And the Saxons. The raids of the Norsemen on the coasts of England, and even the occasional community of Vikings quite probably led to a lot of Nordic genes seeding the English population of the time. Then, they came again, but this time the spoke French, having established themselves in the north of France:   the Normans.

Was it, perhaps, a bucolic scene of a shepherd and a milkmaid romping in verdant fields, complete with a string orchestra playing "Greensleeves" in the background, that constituted a local version of Garden of Eden, and pure English culture can be traced back to this event?

So—as a mere bumpkin who lives over here in the Colonies, I'm curious to know what constitutes pure, unadulterated English culture?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:16 PM

By the way, that was 100.

(Life is full of little triumphs!)

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:24 AM

To PR! - you have ignored HERITAGE in your rant - unlike, as I say, the Chinese yesterda, thank goodness.
And to Don - England is (or was until about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began) an olde olde blend of, mostly, European cultures - with a HERITAGE that we should be a lot more (Chinese-like) proud of.

Now, being Saturday and having questioned capitalism during the last week, time for...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 105 of 230: GLOBAL REGULATIONISM

No income-scale would be unjust -
    It's a matter of degree;
And, to have less inequality,
    Regulations are a must.

For, in Millennium's status quo,
    The pay-gaps for human work,
And what's gotten simply as a perk,
    ARE wrong - inhumanely so.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:19 AM

To PR! - you have ignored HERITAGE in your rant

With all respect, that wasn't a rant and it didn't ignore heritage. My second point was all about what our social and cultural heritage - in England, in 2008 - actually is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

WAV go look at the books again. Mass immigration to the British Isles started thousands of years ago. The 1950's were merely one of the later waves...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

About 50 years ago, LP, immigrants mad up less than half a percent of the population here, and I stand by what I said above -
"England is (or was until about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began) an olde olde blend of, mostly, European cultures - with a HERITAGE that we should be a lot more (Chinese-like) proud of."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM

And some of those European cultures were more foreign to each other than even, say, West Africans and Poles.
If you don't believe me, read up on the Hugeonots in England.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

I just tuned in to observe the latest developments, noted WAV's response to my query regarding the nature of English culture, and was rather astonished to learn from WAV that, until quite recently, the English came from nowhere else and have always sprung out of good English soil, spontaneously, not unlike mushrooms!

Amazing!!

And that "mass migrations" didn't occur until just fifty years ago!

Well, now. . . .

I note that lady penelope pounced on this well before me.

Really, WAV! I believe you claimed on some post awhile back, in an attempt to lend weight to some of your bizarre assertions, that you have diplomas, certificates, awards, knighthoods, and Nobel Prizes in anthropology.

Excuse me if I tend to have serious doubts about your claimed credentials.

It's patently obvious that your knowledge of anthropology--not to mention your knowledge of history, well known by any school child with sufficient alertness to stay awake in classes--is more than just a little deficient.

Either that, or you have a few wires seriously crossed!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM

To out-of-tune Don: it's as if you've read another thread before posting - how could you have so misunderstood my "olde olde blend of mostly European cultures"? That surely is a far cry from saying your "sprung out of good old English soil"!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

I fully understand what you are saying, WAV.

Yours is the veiled view of the person who dreams of some former but non-existent "Golden Age," in your case, perhaps the era of Jane Austen, Charles Dickens, et al.

I think the nature of your problem has more to do with all those Pakistanis. Dark skinned taxi drivers who speak with accents. The reek of curry around those take-out restaurants. All that vindaloo. . . .

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

About 50 years ago, LP, immigrants mad up less than half a percent of the population here, and I stand by what I said above -
"England is (or was until about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began) an olde olde blend of, mostly, European cultures - with a HERITAGE that we should be a lot more (Chinese-like) proud of."


These two statements are mutually contradictory.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

Does anyone dispute the existence of a French culture? Or a Scottish culture? Or a Hawaiian Culture? Are these cultures non-existent because they have been influenced by people and cultures that originated elsewhere at some point in the past?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

It definitely is like that on this island, Carol - it's at least acceptable to be a Welsh nationalist in Wales, or a Scottish nationalist in Scotland, but certainly NOT an English nationalist in England (the small percentage of nationalistic folks in England tend, rather, to support British Nationalism; which leads me back to Don and another misunderstanding - I hate the imperialism of the Victorian era, and that's why I like the idea of Nationalism with eco-tourism and fair-trade, via a stronger UN, rather than capitalist immigration and imperialism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

If it seems to you that I misunderstand you, WAV, then that might actually be the case. You keep emitting mixed messages, often contradicting things that you have posted before.

It's like trying to follow a butterfly with the hiccups

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Nothing wrong with being an English nationalist. It is the blinkered, twisted view of a pure ethnic history that we challenge. Just as I think that 'Celtic' cultures owe as much to England as they do to some sort of pan-celtism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

nationalism of any sort does not solve economic problems.
an understanding of the capitalist system,is important in trying to solve the inequalities of society.
The problem with nationalism,is that it has been used, in the past,and probably will be used again in the future,to distract people from the real causes of their economic problems,which is the system.
Being proud of a musical heritage is different,but one needs to understand the musical heritage,and understand that no man is an island unto himself,and that all musical heritages have had outside infleunces,there is no such thing as a pure English musical heritage,any more than there is a pure Irish musical heritage,[DonegalHighlands and Scottish influence spring to mind] the four nations are musically intertwined,and have influenced each other.http://www.dickmiles.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

THat little Scotch song Barbary Ellen!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM

"nationalism of any sort does not solve economic problems." (CB)...with fair-trade it would.
"THat little Scotch song Barbary Ellen!!!!!" (Volgadon)...the English version is among my among my repertoire.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:01 PM

I hate the imperialism of the Victorian era

Maybe you do, but it made the England you're living in now. You seem to imagine that by bellowing 'Authentic! Heritage! European!' loudly enough you can erase the last 200 years of history - it doesn't work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

So, you admit to singing a song of Scottish origins? WHERE IS YOUR CONSISTENCY?????????????????????????????????????

HOW would nationalism with fair-trade solve problems? Please expand, WITHOUT reffering to your websites.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

I'm sorry, I just don't understand where you are coming from WAV. You do a lot of shouting about English culture & heritage, but refuse to aknowledge how England came about in the first place. You seem to have this vision of England being a frozen bubble in time, made up of the bits you like, taken from history, some where vaguely between 1100 CE to 1930 CE.

I was born and brought up in London. I've spent all my life in England and I dearly love the place. But the England and the culture I grew up in appears wildly different to the english culture you keep harping on about. More to the point, you keep trying to tell me what is and what is not my culture.

Whilst I appreciate that you wish to promote parts of my culture that have dwindled, you do it in a blinkered and frankly offensive way. I see little difference between your denial of the evolution that brought England to it's path through history and that of what used to be called the National Front, who also seemed to think that at some point there was a race of Englishmen and a specific culture that is English and that nothing should be allowed to detract from or change this artificial construct.

Make no mistake, I am no apologist for being English, I do think that people should be proud to be English and I don't see why it should be the 'politically correct' bone of contention that it has become. But whilst I defend the right to be English with pride, I see no reason to allow someone with such a narrow viewpoint dictate to me what it means to be English.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 04:35 AM

I got the English version of Barbara Allen from Dig. Trad., Volgadon, which also says: "The English and Scottish both claim the original ballad in different versions"; and I like such DIFFERENCES, as I love our world being multicultural, and I wish for it to remain so.
It wasn't 1930, LP - as I say, in the 1950s less than half a percent of our population were immigrants, and, whether or not we like it, it's silly to deny the mass immigration and rapid changes since then.
And, as with Don, above, you're temporarily out-of-tune with your "frozen bubble in time" - that surely, also, is a far cry from my "olde olde blend of mostly European cultures" (above). But what I keep stressing is, given all the conquest and immigration that has occured around the world, the best FROM NOW ON is nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN - instead of yet more conquest and capitalist/economic immigration/emigration.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 04:40 AM

But the earliest refference is Pepys, who calls it a Scottish song. Does that mean that Englishmen who sang it weren't practising their own culture? Consistency, please. What is the difference between that and performing an American song?

What do you think about Noel Coward, is his music English?

PLEASE EXPLAIN in more detail what you mean by nationalism with fair-trade. Who knows, if it's a good idea, we might support it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Dave (Bridge)
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

Why do people keep falling into this trap and prolonging a senseless argument with someone who will not listen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

"Why do people keep falling into this trap and prolonging a senseless argument with someone who will not listen"...4 technical certificates, a BA degree in humanities (majoring in anthropology with distinctions), shoestring travel through about 40 countries, A-grade junior football and tennis, etc...how on earth could someone achieve that without listening to others, Dave?
I Just LISTENED to a heavily Americanised "Songs of Praise" (BBC) and was disgusted, frankly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

Listening to others means having discourse WAV, and answering questions, not endless touting of ones "academic" credentials. Have YOU ever seen anyone else on here mention their credentials? Think about it. Even bearing in mind your blessed credentials, you obviously didn't learn debate, and keeping the self promotion to a minimum.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

Yes, IE - others here have IN THEIR DEFENCE against false criticism such as "a senseless argument with someone who will not listen." (DB).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Sorry WAV, I thought someone with 4 technical certificates, a BA degree in humanities (majoring in anthropology with distinctions), shoestring travel through about 40 countries, A-grade junior football and tennis, would know how to spell defence and assylum properly. (defense and asylum)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

It's defenCe, IE, and for anyone who missed the American-spelling debate on an earlier thread...

Poem 149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

WAV, why didn't you answer my recent questions, such as outlining your plan for nationalism with free trade?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:56 PM

WAV, all the American spelling conventions can be traced to English sources.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

Fair, NOT "free", trade - via UN REGULATIONS, Volgadon..."Liberty, as sufeit, is the father of much fast," (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).
And, by the way, it's practiSe here and practiCe in the USA!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM

sorry, fair, but please do elaborate, and both both practiCe and practiSe appear in English records of the 18th century.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM

practice=noun; practise=verb


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

Maybe the UN can commission you to produce the Volgadon Standard English Dictionary; as well as replac(it's not S is it?!)ing the free global market economy with a regulated one, such that we humans still have the incentive of an economic-ladder to climb - but without the ridiculous inhumane inequality that capitalism produces.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

But where does nationalism fit in?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

". . . you're temporarily out-of-tune with your 'frozen bubble in time'. . . ."

As to lady penelope and me fitting that characterization, I think it's pretty obvious to all who it really fits.

WAV, I don't know what you mean by eco-travel (yes, I do know what eco-travel is) and fair-trade through whatever means. I have been a supporter of the United Nations from its very inception, and my support is not just lip-service. I've lent my talents and abilities to the United Nations on a number of occasions. But I also see the formation of the European Union as a step forward in attempting to civilize the Planet Earth. I, too, am opposed to the policies of some nations (particularly the United States, but with the support of England and other countries) regarding capitalistic, economic—and military— conquest. But I don't know what you mean when you say this. You certainly don't make yourself clear.

As to the matter of immigration/emigration, it has always occurred, and when people move from place to place, they bring parts of their culture with them. Their motivation for moving is often to seek a better life, but it is quite natural that they would want to bring the good aspects of what they left behind with them. They may become integrated into the culture to which they have moved, but some of the culture they bring with them is integrated along with the people themselves.

And this is a good thing. Otherwise, the host culture becomes static, and static cultures wither and die. Introduction of new elements into a culture, whether from the outside or from within are what keep it alive and growing. Multi-culturalism introduces people to new options. Both realistically and allegorically speaking, it increases the menu choices for everyone.

If you are as schooled in anthropology as you claim to be, you should know this—and accept it as a fact of life on this planet.

There is a line from a German play (often erroneously attributed to Hermann Goering, for some strange reason), regarding the touting of a particular culture. Because the person making the statement is aware of the dangers in culture-worship, he says:

"When I hear the word 'culture,' I reach for my pistol!"

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM

The "Free Trade Agreeement" between Aust & US is known here as 'The F*** The Aussies' con job...

"when people move from place to place, they bring parts of their culture with them. [snip] it is quite natural that they would want to bring the good aspects of what they left behind with them."

That's how Australia has become the Gourmet delight of the world - we got so many different cultural based food systems!

Went across the the park yesterday to the local 'multicultural festival' - such events are becoming very common in Australia now.

Snacked on a range of Indian/Thai/Dutch/French/German/Italian/Spanish/ ... (lost track) nibblies... (and there was no Sushi either!) Yum! Would I want to go back to the stodgy 'Traditional Aussie Food' of my youth (basically the worst of 'English Cusine')?

No way!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 10:08 PM

We're especially blessed here in Seattle. This is a major West Coast seaport city, and there are ethnic restaurants of all kinds here.

One of the local supermarkets has employed a Chinese chef in their deli department, and he makes the most outrageous Mongolian beef (strips of flank steak cooked in a savory—sorry, "savoury"—sauce and served over mixed vegetables or rice)! A gourmet delight!

But lest WAV assume that this puts me beyond the pale, since coffee (I used to drink gallons of the stuff) has started bothering my stomach, I've switched to tea. I'm particularly fond of English breakfast tea (purchasable at a local outlet), while occasionally preferring to start the day with a cup of Earl Gray.

I'm not sure. Is "Earl" the gentleman's first name, or is it his title?

A few years ago I watched a piece on television—pardon me, "the telly"—in which the Duchess of York explained in detail how to make "the perfect cup of tea." I tend to follow her quite detailed instructions, which, I find, produces quite satisfactory results.

Tea, regarded as the quintessential English beverage, originated in southeast Asia, specifically around the intersection of latitude 29°N and longitude 98°E, the point of confluence of the lands of northeast India, north Burma, southwest China and Tibet.

What would English culture—or any culture, for that matter—be without cross-culteral influences?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:33 AM

On the other hand Don, I - living in Newcastle upon Tyne, within walking distance of the (Charles) Grey's Monument - prefer mostly coffee and an occasional cup of tea. And I used to debate with my late-Godmother over whether the milk/soya (in my case) should go in first (her) or last (me - that way we can get the correct amount visually).
And I've also enjoyed those cuisines you and FT mention - DURING MY TRAVELLING - which was, in hindsight, the eco-travel/eco-tourism you questioned.
However, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the UN should agree to stop economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (including the American Green Card lottery system) FROM NOW ON. Further, it IS much more difficult for tourists to terrorize.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:43 AM

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems

I don't understand you. Could you please define what you mean by culture here? Many thanks,

Ed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM

Hoodie culture? Blame culture? Those are cultures I find it hard to live with!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:59 AM

Glad to see this bizarre thread back - did anyone else notice that it was closed an hour or two ago, or was I imagining?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM

"Could you please define what you mean by culture here?" (Ed)...wonts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:41 AM

Well, if you donts want to tell us, we cants make you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM

The usual going round in circles. Does culture = nationality? No.

Is there a single national culture or identity? No.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

no it wasnt.there were loads of irish,jews,and west indians.
in fact in notting hillgate in 1959,there were riots instigated by Oswald Mosley and Colin Jordan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

"On the other hand Don, I - living in Newcastle upon Tyne, within walking distance of the (Charles) Grey's Monument - prefer mostly coffee and an occasional cup of tea.
"
Coffee, a beverage originating in Ethiopia which was spread throughout the Ottoman Empire by Arabs, then spread to Europe by the Turks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM

The Notting Hill race riots were a series of racially-motivated riots which took place in the Notting Hill area of London, England over several nights in late August and early September 1958.
correction,The Notting Hill race riots of 1958 lasted for nearly a week and and were triggered by the activities of the British Union of Fascists led by Sir Oswald Mosley who encouraged direct action against Caribbean people in North Kensington.
I have no direct evidence linking Colin Jordan,to these riots.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

> Home <   |   > Print friendly <   |

Author: Steve Silver   |   Date: May 2006

Who killed my brother?
The murder of Kelso Cochrane on Saturday 17 May 1959 became one of the most significant moments in the history of racism in Britain. Stabbed to death by a gang of racist white youths, Cochrane was killed in a strikingly similar way to Stephen Lawrence in 1993. In both cases there was a conspiracy of silence that protected his murderers, but of course Stephen's name remains well known while Kelso's has largely faded from public memory.

That is why last month's BBC2 documentary Who Killed my Brother? was so welcome. The black and white footage of the Notting Hill area of west London was a grim reminder of some of the worst aspects of 1950s Britain, a far cry from the chic Notting Hill made famous by Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts nearly 40 years later in the 1999 film of that name.

Kelso Cochrane was an Antiguan who came to Britain in 1954 and settled in Notting Hill, where he worked as a carpenter. He was saving money so that he could eventually study law. Rejecting the opportunity to live in the USA when he was offered residency there, he made Britain his home.

While at work Kelso fractured his left thumb. Come the weekend, his arm in a sling, he found himself in severe pain. So, after a sunny Saturday spent at Portobello Road Market and Hyde Park with his fiancée, a nurse, that evening Kelso went to Paddington General Hospital to get his thumb looked at again and some pain relief. He was given pain killers and made his way home. Just a short distance from where he lived, he was attacked by five to seven white youths and stabbed in the heart. He died in hospital a short while later.

The Notting Hill area had become notorious following "race riots" eight months earlier in 1958. Because of this, Kelso's killing was to become national news and a hot political issue. Some 1,200 people, black and white, turned out for his funeral.

One man could not make the funeral. Back in Antigua, Kelso's brother Stanley, who had paid for Kelso's trip to England, did not have enough money to come himself. Who Killed my Brother? is the story of Stanley's journey to London this year in search of the truth about what happened the night his brother died.

Nobody has ever been tried for the murder. Stanley spoke to people close to Kelso at the time and with the TV researchers delved through archive material. He returned to Antigua with a better understanding of what happened but still a lot of missing pieces. Kelso's clothes had been destroyed in 1968 making advances in forensic technology that might have secured a conviction useless in this case. Searchlight cooperated with the police cold case murder reinvestigation team and the BBC researchers in tracking down potential witnesses.

In a pattern to be repeated all over Britain following other racist killings, the police at the time were quick to claim Kelso's murder was not racist. This was almost certainly a misguided attempt to ensure calm in the area. The reason behind this was a belief that the sentencing of white youths to four years' imprisonment for attacking black people had exacerbated tensions before the 1958 riots. In reality that was a rare conviction for what had been regular "nigger hunting expeditions". It has also been suggested that the police were worried about the repercussions as in those days a conviction for murder would have meant a hanging.

Union Movement

Of course, like moths to a light bulb, wherever there is a possibility of racial tensions, the fascists were active. Oswald Mosley's Union Movement targeted the Notting Hill area and many blamed it for whipping up racial hatred. There were no laws against inciting racial hatred at the time, which gave racists and fascists a free hand. Feeling the heat in the wake of the murder, Mosley issued this statement on the following Tuesday:

"On May 17 a negro was reported murdered in the Notting Hill district. The next day some daily papers suggested that this was due to racial tension and that I was responsible on account of my prospective candidature, although I had just circulated to every house in the area to settle the question by 'votes not violence' …"

Mosley said one thing and did another. He went on to hold a meeting on the very spot where Kelso was murdered. Who Killed my Brother? interviewed John Bean, a man once described as "the British Goebbels". Bean was one of the best known Union Movement activists at the time; he is currently editor of the British National Party magazine, Identity.

Most interesting of all was a key local Union Movement activist, Peter Dawson. A Notting Hill resident, Dawson joined the organisation in January 1959. While never a suspect in Kelso's murder, Dawson claimed to hold a vital piece of information.

On 24 September 1961 the Sunday People ran an exposé of Dawson under the headline "Britain's Biggest Bully Unmasked". Talking about Kelso's murder, Dawson told the reporter, Ken Gardner: "It was one of the Union mob … A great guy. Did it to teach the other nigs a lesson. But none of us in the movement would tell the police a thing."

Dawson was an unsavoury character even by fascist standards. The article described him as a "Housebreaker, thief, [and a] strong-arm man. Just the man for Mosley, who appointed him West London area organiser for the Union Movement."

Dawson played a leading role in Mosley's electioneering in Notting Hill. During the run-up to one election he was fined £10 for throwing a home-made smoke bomb into the window of a car. It was reported that he had "inflamed a crowd [at a meeting] against a group of white girls standing with their coloured boyfriends".

On 31 December 1959 Dawson allegedly daubed the slogan "Juden raus" (Jews out) three times on the wall of Notting Hill Gate synagogue with swastikas between the words. Then he slipped back to the office to make anonymous phone calls to the newspapers. The Association of Jewish Ex-Serviceman formed a group to guard synagogues, but in an attempt to discredit them Dawson placed a home-made bomb just outside the Union Movement headquarters. By its side he painted a Star of David.

In July 1960 Dawson was involved in a disturbance outside the Ritz Hotel where Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo, was staying. Dawson was sentenced to three months' imprisonment for using threatening behaviour whereby a breach of the peace might have been occasioned. According to the prosecution Dawson mistook the High Commissioner for Ghana for Lumumba and hit him in the face.

Dawson also sent fascist literature as a wedding present to Princess Margaret. Soon afterwards he organised a protest march outside the Pigalle Restaurant against the black American singer Sammy Davis Junior, who had recently married a Swedish woman, Mai Britt. He also boasted of putting a flaming cross on the railway bridge at Notting Hill Gate. "That put fear into the local blacks. They thought the Ku Klux Klan had arrived to burn them at the stake."

Dawson was for a time the circulation manager for Union Movement's Action newspaper. He was finally expelled from the organisation after an arson attack for which he was acquitted.

The programme makers tracked down Dawson in the hope of getting him to talk on camera but to no avail. If he does know who killed Kelso, to this day he will not say.

A prime suspect was a local young man who had been released from prison two weeks earlier. John "Shoggy" Breagan was notorious in the area for his violent racism towards black people which had led to his conviction. The trial judge referred to this hatred which combined with drink had led him to attack three black men with weapons including a knife. Breagan had attended the drinks party from where the men who attacked Kelso had come. Despite a lengthy police interview Breagan was never charged. Although Breagan agreed to meet Stanley, his front door remained firmly shut when Stanley turned up. In an angry phone call to the BBC he denied any knowledge of the murder.

White Defence League

Colin Jordan's White Defence League, which had its national headquarters in nearby Princedale Road, was also very active in the wake of Kelso's murder. Jordan prided himself that his organisation was even more nazi than the Union Movement. Less than a month after the murder he issued a pamphlet laden with conspiracy theory entitled Who Killed Kelso Cochrane? It said:

"The people behind the coloured invasion are getting desperate because of the growing white resistance in Notting Hill. Reds are forming strong-arm squads in support of the blacks. Jews have threatened to destroy the premises of the White Defence League. Now they are using the killing of a coloured man to:

"Smear the white folk of Notting Hill.


'Frame' white resistance organisations in the district.


Demand new laws to stifle and punish resistance.


Was Cochrane's killing arranged for this foul purpose?"

Interviewed on camera an ageing Jordan claimed with nostalgic bravado that his people operated unhindered from their Notting Hill premises. But Searchlight knows different. On one occasion three years after Kelso's murder, the building, which had by then become the headquarters of the National Socialist Movement and was only open at weekends, was attacked by anti-fascists and the furniture and contents turned upside down while members of the nazi "master race" cowered inside.
David Franks you really dont know what you are talking about


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

I didn't say there were no ethnic groups, or no ethnic conflict, in the 1950s, CB - I said: "Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

Okay Wavy, ya' gotta' point there. England in the 1950's was culturally a much more English place than the Bronx or Santa Fe. No two ways about that!!!

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

Hey catspaw-you making fun of the bronx? Look out man, my dad's from the bronx and thems fighting words!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

"Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place."

And the only logical question to arise from this statement, David, is whether you think that was a good thing? Do you think that this made England intrinsically "better" then than now?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

Nope IE......I love the Bronx! I thank the lord daily that its not English.......LOL

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

...and as Ruth already knows from other threads, but wants me to repeat, I genuinely prefer England "then than now" - although I do love our world being multicultural.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

Are you going to answer any of my points and questions, WAV?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

So you genuinely prefer an England "then" that you never existed in, because you were born too late? What are the reasons you prefer England then as opposed to now?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

"And I've also enjoyed those cuisines you and FT mention - DURING MY TRAVELLING - which was, in hindsight, the eco-travel/eco-tourism you questioned."

Well, how lovely for you, WAV!

Within walking distance or easy driving distance of where I live, there are a number of ethnic restaurants: three Chinese (not "chop suey" and "chow mein" joints, each serves authentic cuisine from a different part of China), Thai, Indian, two Mexican restaurants, two Italian, one Greek, restaurants that feature foods of other Mediterranean countries—a whole United Nations General Assembly of cuisines available to me and others who live where I do.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this world who cannot afford to go to Iran for luleh kebabs or Spain for paella or Turkey for babaganoush or Thailand for tom yum kung or Brazil for caruru do par. According to you, the right to enjoy the variety of the world's provender should be limited to those who can afford to indulge in eco-travel/eco-tourism. And everyone else (at least your fellow English) should stay home and dine on the legendary English "cuisine" of fifty years ago (which—I have been told—consisted of boiling the flavor out of everything)!

That is, at the very least, elitist!

"However, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the UN should agree to stop economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (including the American Green Card lottery system) FROM NOW ON. Further, it IS much more difficult for tourists to terrorize."

In addition to being blatantly inaccurate, the level of bigotry betrayed by this statement is shocking. This is the sort of stuff spouted by Southern rednecks and neo-Nazis.

And if you knew anything about the United Nations at all, you would know that what you would have them do regarding immigration/emigration just isn't ever going to appear on their agenda.

Incredible!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

you are a xenophobe, David.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

Hell Ruth, that's okay.......Why I tell ya' Bigass Amazon scares the crap outta' me too!!!

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

Are you going to answer any of my points and questions, WAV?

Is that a rhetorical question?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM

Xenophobia, Ruth, is a fear or hatred of aliens/strangers, which is a ridiculous thing to say of someone who DID enjoy travelling on a shoestring through about 40 countries and, in frank response to your earlier question, made a point of stressing a love of our world being multicultural. And, if you set up some kind of candid camera to see if I would help a tourist of any culture or race, you would once more be proven wrong. It's the act of economic/capitalist immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning.
Don: for similar reasons, I hate imperialism be it Nazi, Victorian, American, or any other.
Volgadon: I did answer your questions, equally frankly - the only extra detail I can give is that, if attitudes changed radically and I was some kind of leader, I'd delegate for experts in their field to flesh-out the details of my above REGULATIONISM; i.e., macro NOT micro management...and how's your standard English dictionary going?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Says something, then when questioned about it or called on it, he ducks it and says something else.

Like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall.

What exactly do you mean by "economic/capitalistic immigration/emigration?"

Some detail, please.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

By the way, WAV, it was imperialism (you have heard of "The British Empire," haven't you?) that made English culture during the period you're so fond of possible.

Just thought I'd point that out to you.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:50 PM

And of course it's that same imperialism that resulted in the arrival in England of those awful people with their objectionably brown skins
no, wait...
heathen religions
er...
funny cooking
how shall I put this...
foreign wonts. Because, let's face it, if there's one thing we can't be doing with here in tolerant liberal England, it's foreign wonts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:10 PM

In a debate in Parliament around 1945, one MP was heard to rant, "We've got to keep those wogs on their own side of the Channel!"

WAV, it would appear, echoes that sentiment.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:25 PM

"Xenophobia, Ruth, is a fear or hatred of aliens/strangers,"

it is equally xenophobic to say "foreigners are fine - I just don't want them in my street/neighbourhood/country. Let them stay where they come from/belong."

Just as it is homophobic to say "homosexuals are fine - I just don't want to have to see them."

Both are about artificially preserving an illusion of homogeneity and "safety" within a majority population. Both are equally deluded and prejudicial.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

It's too late to stop immigration of any kind, economic or otherwise (not that I would want to stop it, myself). That horse has left the barn. But it is possible to make it easier for people to stay in their own countries (because most people would prefer to live well in their own countries than to move to other countries for economic reasons), and this is what we should be doing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM

One thing that is fairly evident about the fifties is that culture in the UK was much narrower than nowadays; in that most of the culture accorded popular value here was American: Movies, music, food, drinks, clothes

I think this touches on a couple of the running sores (or discussions as they are sometimes described here. One is that people blithely talk about traditional music as if it was obvious or agreed what a tradition is. Most of the tales of traditional music described in this forum have no basis in tradition at all. Tradition is something continuous which you are brought up within and pass on. It is not about how old the music is. It certainly has nothing to do with how the rich and powerful divide us up at any given moment in time.

When you research and learn a song which was sung by people in a different context in a different era there is no element of tradition in this, whether the songs come from the place you were born or not. It may be a fascinating and interesting intelectual excercise but it has nothing to do with tradition, yet so many people in here get self-righteous about the authenticity of their keeping "The Tradition" alive..

My fathers family all worked in the Clyde Shipyards. I have no knowledge of any link to the Lords, Ladies, Kings, Queens, ploughmen, Shepherds, Sailors or Dragoons who inhabit the so called Traditional songs of whichever country you would care to assign me to ( Wilson is an English name, 2 of my grandparents were Irish) My daughters were both born in England. Which Tradition would you wish me to pass on to them?

My father taught me, among many other things, Tom Paxton songs which I have passed on to my daughters. I have learned Archie Fisher and Ewan McColl songs to keep alive the memory of socialist, working people; that is my history, even if some of it is set in Spain, Salford or Chile.

For the past 20 years I have been very interested in the history of old songs. I have even learned a few. I found that most of the songs which I think of as Traditional Scottish are nothing of the sort but were the popular mass entertainments of 2 generations before mine; pre tv music halls and theatres.   However I learned them singing at my Grandparents' houses where we would have big family get togethers at New Year; community singing. That was one of our traditions, shared by a lot of Scottish people. I was brought up with a love of music by my parents and their families. I was brought up in a tradition of getting together and singing or playing anything you could. We spent so long doing it that to find a song which no-one had yet sung different generations would have to sing things from their own era as well as the songs we all shared. Many of the songs I think of as American, or Irish, or English are in fact Scottish in origin but my singing them is not continuation of any Scottish tradition.   I recently relearned an old American folk song " Mr Froggy went a courting", passed on to me by my Dad from Burl Ives in the sixties but reinforced by Tom and Jerry in the seventies. It is only through Mudcat that I now know this song to be a very old Scottish song. The oldest song which I sing ( I think) is Lord Randall an ancient precursor of many songs down the centuries but I picked it up from Pete Morton, a young man from Leicester and one of the few people I have heard over the years who really can make the old multiverse ballads come to life.   

For centuries music has been used to undermine boundaries of politics and class. However there have always been people like WAV who try to use it in the opposite direction -Keep the poor people of the world in their place/country, pretend that this is the natural order of things. Music lasts as it moves round the world and down generations because it speaks universal truths. Borders and populations come and go to reflect the power politics of a moment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM

When a person is urban born, grows up listening to popular music on the radio (whatever the current fads happen to be), then becomes interested in folk music from going to a concert, hearing a recording, or through a friend—then developes that interest by learning to play a guitar, banjo, or whatever, and learning a bunch of songs from song books and records—I have always taken a dim view of calling such a person a "folk singer." Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always considered a folk singer to be someone who was born and raised in the tradition like, say, Jean Ritchie, Frank Proffitt, or Jeanne Robertson.

This is essentially how my interest developed way back, and I think this is also true for the vast majority if people here on Mudcat. Am I (are we) keeping "the Tradition" alive? And if so, what tradition is that?

Contrary to WAV, I sing songs from a whole variety of "traditions." English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, songs from all over the United States and Canada, and I manage to wrap my mouth around a bit of French, Serbo-Croatian, and Czech. In fact, the criterion I use for whether I learn a song or not is simply that I like the song and want to sing it. I sing folk songs, but I do not consider myself to be a "folk singer." A "singer of folk songs," perhaps. But not all of the songs I sing are folk songs.

Music—of all kinds—is a universal language. And songs are too, even when we may not understand the language in which a song is sung. It can still convey emotions and communicate. Placing limitations on what people should or should not sing is something I simply refuse to accept, and I will not be bound by any one tradition or culture.

Borders between countries are man-made and artificial. Astronauts have remarked that, from space, you can see no borders.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:35 AM

"the criterion I use for whether I learn a song or not is simply that I like the song and want to sing it. I sing folk songs, but I do not consider myself to be a "folk singer." A "singer of folk songs," perhaps. But not all of the songs I sing are folk songs."

Me too - I'm a muso - maybe a 'folkie', but definitely a muso - I even do 'Classical' stuff.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

"It's too late to stop immigration of any kind, economic or otherwise (not that I would want to stop it, myself). That horse has left the barn. But it is possible to make it easier for people to stay in their own countries (because most people would prefer to live well in their own countries than to move to other countries for economic reasons), and this is what we should be doing." (Carol)...yes and no: it would be great if the inequality between nations began to greatly reduce - but capitalist/economic immigration/emigration IS not going to aid this process. If politicians in London, e.g., talk about quality and skilled immigrants, then the gap between our nation and the poorer nations will increase. We need my above GLOBAL REGULATIONISM, via a stronger UN (NOT US - we've had heaps of next-US-leader coverage here in England, but got hardly any about the newish UN leader).
And I say capitalist/economic immigration/emigration, Don, to distinguish it from other kinds - such as couples falling in love on holiday, medical reasons, etc.
And a couple of other critical posts (Don, Ruth!) since my last ignored the fact that it IS the act of immigration/emigration itself that I repeatedly question - and NOT any particular culture/race. I really do love the world being multicultural and again see REGULATIONISM as the good peaceful solution to keep it so.
Anyway, at least I didn't log-in to "WAVe couldn't rule a straight line"!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:41 AM

You argue on the one hand to reduce immigration for economical reasons, but then that England was better in the 1950s due to it's cultural purity.

The two are completely separate issues, but arguments citing economical reasons are often made by people with a more sinister agenda, and more often than not, the arguments made are unfounded.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM

I'm sure, Joseph, that economic/capitalist/money immigration/emigration is not a good think for several reasons. I'm equally sure, though, that genuine asylum seekers should be helped, again via the UN, to their NEAREST safe nation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM

I am continuously amazed at the number of ways and the terminology used by Wavydoof to mask his bigotry and racism,

WAV......You are a bigot and a racist. This is not an attack upon you.......Its a fact.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

"I'm sure, Joseph, that economic/capitalist/money immigration/emigration is not a good think for several reasons."

Another unjustified comment, with no proof. Is it not a good thing for the individual, the area the individual has left or the area the individual has gone to? What are the pros and cons resulting from emigration for each of these? Balance these up, ideally with lots of supporting evidence and examples, then you can say whether it is a bad or good thing, then you can hold a justified opinion.

What is good anyway? Good for culture, the economy, happiness, infrastructure, environment? Its no black and white issue (or maybe it is :-p )


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Time and time again, some of you pro-immigrationists, in desperation, try and label anyone who dares to question immigration as a bigot or a racist - and time and time again I've tried to make it clear that there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being a racist. Why don't you at least admit that it is possible for someone who genuinely does like the world being multicultural to not like economic immigration - e.g., Joseph, because they feel that trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the on state law will always cause problems, or that the resulting loss of local culture will be bad for society, or that a given nation is already over-crowded, etc.
Go through all I've published on the web, and you'll only find repeated questioning of immigration - you will NOT, Spaw, find any racist or defamatory attacks on any given person or people ("IT'S a fact").
(And this is usually where the thread gets closed, but I hope not this time, as there are many other topics/Weekly Walkabouts I'd like post for discussion.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

You already have posted them on your own website. You've reposted them here in many cases repeatedly and linked your crap ad infinitum.

Nothing new and nothing related to any real folklore or the music now is there? Just one little man's opinions repeated in verse (and also prose) over and over. Note that we don't do that even for performing artists here. Why repost?

Yeah......I know I don't have to open it but then again you don't have to post it. You got your own site for all your crap, just link it one more time and call it a day.

BTW, this is definitely BS.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

"Volgadon: I did answer your questions,"

Then where have you explained in greater detail what you mean by nationalism with fair trade, where have you answered my Noel Coward question, where have you addressed why it is acceptable for you to sing a Scottish song, yet others shouldn't an American one?

My English Dictionary is going superbly. Do you want to read an extract from the foreword?

You might find my style a little too conversational, WAV, but I don't see why a dictionary has to be a dull doorstopper.


The English language is rich and varied. In England alone there are around sixty different dialects, as well as numerous regional varieties throughout the world. Most of those variances can be traced to different traditions in the British Isles before standardisation began in the 18th century. The peculiar nature of the English langue is, perhaps, best demonstrated by the following saying. English does not borrow from other languages- English follows other languages don dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
A people's history is often best told by their language. English is no exception.
Germanic in origin, it absorbed many of the idionsyncrancies of various Celtic languages, Norman French, Latin, Dutch, as well as Hindi, through a long, shared history.
Each encounter has enrichened our vocabulary and culture.
In this dictionary, as well as standard British forms, we have chosen, when appropriate, to present some variations which have or have had wide currency, as well as some historical oddities.

All that remains is to write the confounded thing!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

I think that the inclination for people to move to other countries will diminish if and when there is more economic equality between the various nations of the world. I also agree that the need for people to move to other countries because of economic need is unfortunate. I don't agree that mixing cultures within any given country is the cause of the problems that we see in those countries where such mixing occurs. I think the problems are the result of institutionalized discrimination in those countries.

As a for instance, here in the US, there is little or no friction between immigrants from Muslim countries and the rest of the population. That is because, until recently, this country didn't practice discrimination against Muslims, and because the Muslim immigrants to this country came from the higher social/economic strata of their countries of origin. In parts of Europe, they have come more from the middle and lower strata, and they have been very much discriminated against (as are most immigrants from lower levels of the social strata), causing unrest and friction between them and the rest of the population of their adopted country. Also, the lower levels of the social/economic strata are have less job security and when they have to compete with immigrants for jobs, there is friction.

The people in this country that one hears the most about with regard to friction are the immigrants from the countries of Latin America. This is because they are largely from the lower levels of the social/economic strata and they compete with the people here for jobs. They also experience more discrimination than immigrants from some countries.

This is not because different cultures cannot live side by side. It is because people are in the habit of sticking with the familiar. This is something that is changed over time with exposure to those who are different.

So from my perspective, the answer to the problem is greater economic equality and greater equality of opportunity everywhere. The solution to that is in large part the end of economic imperialism. We are in agreement on that. But we disagree about whether or not different cultures can live together in peace. My experience has been that they can, provided everyone has the same opportunities and receives the same treatment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

"Why don't you at least admit that it is possible for someone who genuinely does like the world being multicultural to not like economic immigration"

Becuase you like the WORLD to be multicultural only as long as it doesn't try and make it's way to your doorstep.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

Also, when I have lived in areas that were extremely homogeneous (where almost everyone was White and Protestant), the local culture had a greater tendency to give way to bland, corporate popular culture than areas that had a lot of different cultures living together. This is because in a culturally homogeneous area, the local culture is so taken for granted, it is quickly discarded in favor of the new. But where there is a variety of cultures all in the same place, everyone becomes more keenly aware of their own culture of origin, and they are much more likely to embrace it and preserve it. So I would say that mixing cultures in a particular geographic area is the best way to preserve the cultures of many localities.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM

People also don't feel like they are being forced into a particular culture, so are more liekly to choose their own than reject it as an act of rebellion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

But Carol and Volgadon - what about the law of the land matching the culture. Examples such as the following sometimes make the news here - a school with a strict no-jewellery policy (similar to all French schools now having a no-veil policy, I think) ends up in court because a student insists that a bracelet is very important to her culture and religion...and cases can, of course, get a lot more serious than this. Why doesn't everyone agree that, given all the economic immigration that has occurred around the world, it's definitely better overall if it is, from now on, slowed right down, via UN regulations.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being a racist

You've said this many times, but I don't think you've persuaded anyone yet. The problem is, WAV, that people who feel that trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the on state law will always cause problems, or that the resulting loss of local culture will be bad for society are racist - that's almost a definition of racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

WAV, nice job of ignoring my questions. Are you going to answer, do you have something to hide, or do you simply not know how to explain things beyond writing a sentance or two on your site?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

It's not possible to prevent such occurances even if immigration is not allowed. People often convert to other religions without ever leaving their locality of origin, so such problems will arise regardless of whether or not there is immigration.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:44 PM

Look up your dictionary, Pip, and you'll find it's something quite different from the questioning of immigration you just re-posted.
Volgadon - you say I don't when I do answer your questions, e.g., over "Barbara Allen," which may be one from my repertoiree that I choose to sing at a singaround tonight - the English version, i.e.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

"This is because in a culturally homogeneous area, the local culture is so taken for granted, it is quickly discarded in favor of the new. But where there is a variety of cultures all in the same place, everyone becomes more keenly aware of their own culture of origin, and they are much more likely to embrace it and preserve it."

That is an astute observation, Carol. I think that's exactly what we're observing in multi-cultural England right now, in both a positive and a negative way.

"Examples such as the following sometimes make the news here - a school with a strict no-jewellery policy (similar to all French schools now having a no-veil policy, I think) ends up in court because a student insists that a bracelet is very important to her culture and religion"

what about those cases where the religion being defended is Christianity? There have been several. So does that mean that Christianity is in conflict with the law of the land?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

That's a good point. I should have said that a lot of people convert from one religion to another, or to no religion at all without ever leaving their area of origin. And this does cause conflicts between the various groups without immigration being a part of the equation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM

The OED says:

"prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being"

I stand by what I said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

Excellent posts, Carol!

Regarding discrimination against immigrants from Latin America, you say, "This is because they are largely from the lower levels of the social/economic strata and they compete with the people here for jobs."

I would add that, for the most part, this discrimination is unfounded, because most of the jobs they take are the menial, low-paying jobs that most Americans, even those in fairly desperate straits, simple will not take. Most Americans would find wearing a paper hat and asking "Do you want fries with that?" is acceptable, but swabbing out toilets in public rest rooms is not, even though the two jobs might pay the same. Or the classic, farm labor, down and dirty, all day long in the blazing sun. You'll find a whole lot more Gomezes and Moraleses out in the fields and orchards than you will Smiths and Joneses.

And WAV,

". . . what about the law of the land matching the culture. Examples such as the following sometimes make the news here - a school with a strict no-jewellery policy (similar to all French schools now having a no-veil policy, I think) ends up in court because a student insists that a bracelet is very important to her culture and religion. . . ."

First of all, such things as the French school regulations are, as I understand it, not the law of the land, they are regulations of the schools themselves, and they tend to be arbitrary and draconian. Even if they were the law of the land, they would still be arbitrary and draconian, and since it can be construed as a form of religious oppression (forbidding the wearing of jewelry, such as a necklace with a cross, or items such as a yarmulke or a headscarf), that is what needs to be addressed.

I would object to a tax-supported educational institution promoting or suppressing any expression of a student's religious belief as long as that expression was passive, such as the wearing of a headscarf. Proselytizing, either by the student or by the school, would be another matter. But how does a student wearing a yarmulke in class affect any other student—unless that student it bothers harbors the seeds of religious bigotry?

And WAV, the idea you have that the United Nations should regulate immigration/emigration, especially for economic reasons (the individual or family seeking a better life than what is possible for them in their country of origin) shows that you have little or no understanding of what the UN is all about.

I would like to see a world in which such things as passports, border guards, check points, and barbed wire fences are simply eliminated and people can come and go anywhere they want, anytime they want.

I don't anticipate this happening in my lifetime, but being (for some bizarre and unfounded reason) optimistic about the future of humankind, I think that time will come.

After all, science has found the missing link between early primates and Civilized Man.

It is us.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

I'm glad someone likes my posts. I hope people can see that it is possible to discuss these issues and even disagree about them without attacking or even discussing the originator of the thread. In my opinion, it's a lot more productive to discuss the issues rather than discussing the people who are discussing the issues.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM

Don, one thing to remember is that a lot of state schools in Europe (including the UK) have uniforms, and therefore a uniforms policy. When these cases arise, they usually result from a violation of the uniform policy - extending a privelege to those of a religious persuasion which isn't enjoyed by the rest of the school body. If certain forms of self-expression are denied to the rest of the kids, one could argue, why are some forms allowed to others?

Whether you think freedom of religious expression is sufficiently important to warrant the relaxation of the school rules for some pupils is probably a separate issue, but I personally support the basic principle of school uniforms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:19 PM

Don - the French law relates to the non-religious character of the state, which they take a bit further than the similar US idea - the idea is that when you're on state property you shouldn't assert any religious allegiance (so no crucifixes in school, and no hijabs). More background here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:10 PM

A most interesting and informative article, Pip. Thank you.

There is much in it that I need to absorb yet, but obviously the problem is considerably more complex than I was aware of. However, with a measure of good will on both sides (a commodity hard come by these days), it would seem that the problem could be solved with some serious negotiation. But then, so could most of the world's problems!

I do not see, however, that these difficulties justify closing international borders to immigration. The advantages far outweigh the occasional problem that manifests itself.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 11:37 PM

By the way, on the subject of immigrants to the US from Latin America, they are definitely competing for jobs with people born in the US in the area where I live, where they comprise most of the workforce in the building and flooring trades, and other carpentry related trades. There is a lot of resentment towards these immigrants from people who feel that they are unable to get good jobs in these trades because people are coming here from other countries and working for less than what people in this country can afford to work for.

This is what's wrong with economic imperialism. The US undercuts the ability of people in Latin America to make a living by flooding the markets there with subsidized corn and other things, and the workers there are forced to seek employment in the US, which forces the workers in this country to have to work for less than a living wage. In this respect, I am in complete agreement with the sentiments of the thread originator.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:49 AM

CarolC, your point against economic migration is completely different in sentiment and content to the originator of this thread (WAV). Your point there shows a specific example where certain unfavourable conditions have led to migration, in turn creating further problems for all. What WAV is arguing is that economic migration is bad because cultures cannot and should not mix. The two sentiments are very different.

I am not pro-immigration as such, but when I see what I see as racist motivations behind an anti immigration policy or argument, I have to point it out for what it is!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM

I've given several reasons here (non of them "racist", Joseph), and others elsewhere, why the world would be a better safer place if the UN agreed on the kind of Global Regualtionism I mention above - inluding economic immigration/emigration being illegalised. Yes, a lot of us are where we are in the world now due to the fact that it has been legal (if restricted) for many years - but that should NOT mean that we just have to continue to support it. Slave immigration/emigration was, of course, legal for a long time - it still goes on, e.g., for prostitution, but most are now heavily against it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:00 AM

"on the subject of immigrants to the US from Latin America, they are definitely competing for jobs with people born in the US in the area where I live, where they comprise most of the workforce in the building and flooring trades, and other carpentry related trades. There is a lot of resentment towards these immigrants from people who feel that they are unable to get good jobs in these trades because people are coming here from other countries and working for less than what people in this country can afford to work for."

That's interesting Carol, because it reminded me of America in the late 80s, before I emigrated to the UK (definitely NOT for economic reasons!). Before I left, when the Celtic Tiger had yet to roar, many of the people I knew doing the sorts of jobs you mention, as well as restaurant and bar work, in New York, New Jersey and even LA, were illegal Irish immigrants. Actually, "immigrants" probably isn't the right word, because most of them didn't intend to stay forever - like many of the young Poles currently living in the UK, they were there for a few years, making money, and intended eventually to return home. Most did - unless they happened to meet an American girl and settle in the US. But there were so many of them in America that the Morrison Visa lottery system was introduced.

In any case, the thing that's interesting is that there was no sense of resentment in the communities where they lived, even though the jobs they were doing could undoubtedly have been done by unemployed locals. I even knew illegal Irish who owned their own businesses and employed scores of illegal Irish labour - police turning a blind eye, by any chance?

My point is that, because the local communities felt a cultural affinity to the immigrants in question, they were welcomed into the community with open arms. The resentment you speak of, I think, is at least partly rooted in the sense of "otherness" which comes from people with different language and cultural practices. It's that sense of an alien invasion of sorts which makes people resentful - it's not just economics.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

There is a broader scope for all of this, as Carol and others have mentioned, regarding, in my case, immigration and employment in the US that speaks to national policy. But one must not forget that for some jobs, although immigrants may be taking skilled jobs away from citizens, for others, they are tolling away in the lowest paid,most physically demanding, and most soul sucking jobs available in our workforce. In other words, they are taking a lot of the jobs, and hours that most of us would have no desire to take all for the most meager salary, with no benefits, and with long, gruelling hours. The guilt, I have always felt belongs in part to the employers who sustain that aspect of our workforce, as well as to the mentality that I have heard many times, even from some people I know, to "hire some Mexicans, they'll do anything for the money." Like professionals in the Olympics, there are too many loopholes existent that are punishing the wrong people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM

WAV, my question about Barabara Allen is why is it acceptable for you to sing an English variant of a Scottish song, but for an Englishman to sing something like House of the Rising Sun would be an abomination?

You haven't answered it.

Now, without ignoring that one, on to my other questions.

1) What do you think of Noel Coward, is his music not English?
2) explain in greater detail what you mean by nationalism with fair trade. Then again, maybe you have cause for retinence, hmmmm.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM

I've given several reasons here (non of them "racist", Joseph)

WAV: you said your concerns are that

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the on state law will always cause problems

and that
the resulting loss of local culture will be bad for society

You think it would have been better for England if many of the people of other cultures who have come here in the last 50 years had not done so. Correct?

The OED defines racism as "prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being"

You are a racist. If you're unhappy about being called a racist, it's you who needs to change.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Perhaps WAV is on to something. You see, this being the 21st century, Dr. Fu Manchu, ever striving to strike at the heart of everything English and decent, has had to refine his modus operandi somewhat, putting aside his posion cats and green mists for something a lot more dangerous: MASS IMMIGRATION. You see, apart from helping to plan the opening ceremonies at the olympics, and introducing chords and harmony to folk music (English trad, naturally, Gaels and renegade Amerindian chanters should keep to their own corner of the Isles), the insidous dr has been encouraging furriners to leave that poor, benighted corners of the world (tho very pretty to eco-travel in) and move to England's fair and pleasent green, where different cultures cannot, must not, live under one roof. Thus the good, wholesome English lifestyle, of tennis on the village green on Sunday afternoons (after a rousing, yet entirely composed and dignified High Anglican service) cucumber sandwiches washed down with mead and morris dancers with bells merrily jingling (accompanied by top-line melody tunes played on recorder) will become a thing of the past. Other outrages of the nefarious evil genius, the greatest genius ever to set his mind to crime in the furtherance of his foul goals, are introducing spicy vindaloos, by which he hopes to seduce good, honest Englishmen everywhere away from wholesome, traditional stodgy foods. Yes, he has introduced flavour, which will soon make a mindless slave out of decent folk everywhere. He has also corrupted footie by passionate foreigners, spread tolerance, and, yes, horror of horrors, danced at E-ceilidhs instead of at an English Country Dance.
Will the roving commision of the UN, under the intrepid Nayland Smith and Dr. Petrie be able to stop mass immigration and the insidous Dr. Fu Manchu in time??????????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM

"Racism: belief in superiority of particular race,; antagonism towards members of a different race based upon this" (Collins Dictionary)...I hate imperialism/"superiority of particular race" and I have only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT any "differnet race" Pip. However, it's not just on Mudcat that pro-immigrationist keep trying to equate racism with the questioning of immigration, so it's not surprising that dictionary definitions have moved that way. But, just recently, there has been a movement back toward the understanding that, in a democracy, it IS acceptable to question immigration, and NOT acceptable to brand someone as a racist for doing so. So your criticism IS false and defamatory.
Volgadon - I cited Dig. Trad. above over "Barbara Allen"...there is an English and a Scottish version, and dispute over which came first.
I don't know a lot about Noel Coward, frankly - I'm mainly into English folk and hymns.
Nationalism with fair-trade - a UN regulated (NOT free) global economy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Stu
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

Aren't immigrants people of different race from the target country? So if you're anti immigration, you're anti (some race or other). Or are immigrants ex-pats. Frankly I find your reasoning lacking in coherence.

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

"it IS acceptable to question immigration, and NOT acceptable to brand someone as a racist for doing so. So your criticism IS false and defamatory."

It depends on what your grounds for questioning immigration are. If it's because immigrants are "felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being", then it constitutes racism.

You can't simply dismiss the OED's definition because you don't agree with it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Stu - if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist; but questioning the act of immigration itself is certainly NOT.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

But how does nationalism fit into fair trade? That is what you haven't explained.

The earliest reference to Barbara Allen calls it a Scottish song.

Well, do a little reading and listening up on Noel Coward, then tell me if you think he sounds English or American.

BTW, what happens if the UN decides to listen to you, meets together and decrees that immigration should be increased threefold, with half of it being directed at your current place of residence?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

In the area of the country where I live, what I wrote above is true. The construction trades have fairly strong unions, and these unions are supported by other unions, so a construction worker working for less than union wages is pretty rare.

On the other hand, I am aware of a number of janitorial and housecleaning services that pay minimum wage, and most of them hire immigrants, almost totally Hispanic. Eastern Washington is farm country, and both legal and illegal immigrants do get this far North, following the crops. In addition to various kinds of produce, Eastern Washington is wine country (good volcanic soil), and Washington apples are world famous. Without immigrant workers working for very low wages, these jobs simply wouldn't get done because most Americans, no matter how hard up, just simply don't want to do them. Hard work, dirty work, long hours.

Of course, this doesn't stop people from saying that "these illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from American workers."

Computer companies tend to hire a lot of programmers and technicians from India, not because they can pay them cheaper wages, but because they are just darn good at what they do. Better educated, better qualified.

Closing the borders is one way to avoid facing certain bitter truths.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:52 PM

"Closing the borders is one way to avoid facing certain bitter truths."

Indeedio. But what happens when they close the borders and you STILL can't find a job? Who do you blame then?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

WAV, 12th August:

"Look up your dictionary, Pip, and you'll find it's something quite different from the questioning of immigration you just re-posted."

WAV, 13th August:

"pro-immigrationist keep trying to equate racism with the questioning of immigration, so it's not surprising that dictionary definitions have moved that way."

So the dictionary definition supports you - except where it doesn't, in which case the dictionary is wrong.

But set that aside. Please, let's stop talking about 'questioning immigration'. You don't question immigration, do you? You're opposed to immigration, specifically on the grounds that you think there shouldn't be multiple cultures in one country - you've said this many times. Which means, in the English context, you don't think that West Indian and South Asian and Irish cultures should have been brought here. Which means you're antagonistic to, or prejudiced against, those cultures and the people who brought them here.

A straight question: do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited? A simple Yes or No will suffice.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:18 PM

But what happens when they close the borders and you STILL can't find a job? Who do you blame then?

Bush


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:20 PM

if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist

But that's exactly what you're saying! You're saying that immigrants of any ethnicity other than English are all alien to English culture and a potential threat to it. You're a racist even by your own arbitrarily limited definition, I'm afraid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

Good job there Pip!

Now that its been factually and logically decided and determined that Wavyboy is obviously a racist, how about we look up "Dipstick" and/or "Brokedick Jadrool" so that these terms might also be used freely?

That's not an attack. I'm simply hoping and trying to define terms...........

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:33 PM

Well, lemme see. "Dipstick" was a cartoon duck in a short-lived comic strip by a local cartoonist in one of the Seattle papers. Dipstick wasn't like Donald Duck. He wore a jacket and what looked like a derby hat, spent most of his time sitting on the end of a dock on the waterfront and commenting on the news of the day. He appeared on the editorial page rather than the regular comic page. He had a sort of semi-human appearing buddy named Cecil Addle (Get it? C. Addle.)

I think he got his name from coming out second best in too many encounters with oil-spills.

Anybody have a good definition for the word "dork?"

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:08 PM

walkabout
>>>No, Stu - if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist; but questioning the act of immigration itself is certainly NOT.

Pip
>>>if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist

But that's exactly what you're saying! You're saying that immigrants of any ethnicity other than English are all alien to English culture and a potential threat to it. You're a racist even by your own arbitrarily limited definition, I'm afraid.<<<

He certainly is not from this quote. What he is saying is that they are not a part of English culture. Which is true. True but not racist.

I find keeping people out to protect English culture a bit daft at this point because modern English culture certainly includes such things as south Asian curry shops. But that alone would qualify as proof as racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:32 PM

I don't think it's racism either. The desire is to preserve English culture in England. An appreciation for other cultures has been expressed by the one articulating this desire numerous times. The difference is that the thread originator is concerned that English culture will die out (not that other cultures are not as valid as English culture), and the belief is that stopping some kinds of immigration will prevent this from happening. I don't happen to agree with this idea myself, but it's not racist.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM

I am sure its 220!

220 is right
At this time of night
Later you'll see
Its all about ME!!!

The OCness of Boredom


Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:20 AM

Its plain to see that what the devil will do with idle hands.

For the sake of peace and harmony on the Mudcat I just wish that more threads were closer to one hundred.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:26 AM

"The difference is that the thread originator is concerned that English culture will die out (not that other cultures are not as valid as English culture), and the belief is that stopping some kinds of immigration will prevent this from happening. I don't happen to agree with this idea myself, but it's not racist."

The politics of seige have been used in many places to justify bigotry. The "our culture is under threat" chestnut is a favourite of the BNP.

"I love our world being multi-cultural", but not wanting to see any of that multiculturalism in England, is one of the most fundamental tenets of xenophobia: "I don't mind them, as long as they're not over here."

I'm afraid I disagree with you, Carol. I think these views are not only racist, but they are of a particularly nasty variety, as they try and couch themselves under a veneer of acceptability.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:00 AM

The BNP supporting a position does not automatically make it racist.

Wanting to preserve one's culture certainly is not. Though racist politicians may use that argument when less palatable ones prove unpopular.

On the other hand, isn't all the talk about racism here an attempt to stop the poetry? Racist talk is banned on the Mudcat. If WalkaboutsVerse says something blatantly racist on this forum, y'all can ask the moderators to delete it. On the other hand, the harmless descriptions of geographical English blandness, seem to be drawing a very high level on hostility. They also seem to be drawing a high number of personal attacks from at least one esteemed member. Its making us all look a little childish.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM

I agree that racists definitely couch their racism in that kind of terminology. But racists have universal contempt for people and cultures other than their own. The person who started this thread has expressed appreciation and admiration for many cultures other than his own, many of which are non-white cultures, which are the most hated by racists. For pete sake, just look at his myspace friends...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=167864750


As I said before, I don't agree with the methods proposed, but wishing to preserve one's own culture is not racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:16 AM

By the way, I notice that someone with moderator powers has altered the contents of the link in the opening post in this thread.
    Noted and repaired.
    -Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:44 AM

racists have universal contempt for people and cultures other than their own

Some racists may do, but most don't. Racists divide the world into their own race/ethnicity/culture and other races/ethnicities/cultures, and see other cultures as a threat to their own. Even the white South African government used to proclaim its respect and admiration for black culture - they just thought it was best if black and white cultures were kept separate (which is the meaning of the 'apart' in Apartheid).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:01 AM

They did a lot more than keep Blacks and Whites separate. They completely subjugated the indigenous Black population and rendered them effectively captive in their own lands. That's an entirely different kettle of fish than someone saying they'd like to preserve their own culture in the location from which it sprang.

Another thing racists don't do is seek out people of cultures other than their own (because they consider them inferior), unlike the person who started this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:16 AM

Esteemed member? Me? Surely not. Although at one point early on I was enjoying a few shots at Walky, I have since even had posts deleted and have not posted anything attack-like since. Saying he's a racist and a bigot is not an attack. Ruth and Pip and others are not attacking the lad either. Simply stating an opinion that one considers true in even tones is not an attack. Walky says he believes his stuff and I don't feel he's attacking me by saying I am not telling the truth. Its his opinion.

And it was Walky himself who long ago made the subject matter of his poetry the topic of these threads.

228, now ain't that great
I couldn't wait til 228
Later you'll see
Its all about me.

The OCness of Boredom

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:55 AM

"a few shots at Walky" (Spaw)..well this has become something of a tennis/ping-pong thread...BS, Music, BS...(but I've had an email saying it's back down due to lack of verse, sorry Spaw - the next Weekly Walkabout will not be posted until Saturday...I wonder if we'll wander back up again?!).
As for the "shots" regarding racism, from Pip, Ruth, Spaw, etc., I will always respond as I know myself, and my genuine enjoyment of travelling and being in-among other cultures for a time. However, what Carol just said of me/answered for me is accurate, and I'll leave it at that on this occasion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:34 AM

>>>Simply stating an opinion that one considers true in even tones is not an attack.

So if I were to observe that Walkabout's calm responses to your constant, yammering, and teasing is making you look like a desperate, screaming, playground bully, you would not perceive that as an attack? Because of course I would never voice such an opinion, even though I hold it, except as an illustration. Because such an attack, if I did voice it, would not hurt you so much as it would the harmony of this forum. I do not have the relish for making extra work for the moderators that some have demonstrated.

Though Spaw, you are not identifiable as the worst upsetter of this little apple-cart we lovingly call the 'Cat. That honor should be held for the "moderator" who abused his (not likely her) position to vandalize this thread. I don't care to speculate on who that might be.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:45 AM

Pip Radish
Ruth Archer

You are both making excellent points. I also think that Walkabouts has said some unfortunate things which open him up to your accusations. I don't see what you two are doing as attacks, because they clearly are not meant that way. You are rightfully offended by his words. I don't think it is likely that you will get him to admit to racism though, I don't think he believes that he is racist, which may be understandable, because I am not completely convinced that he is racist. For the purpose of peace and harmony, I would like to respectfully suggest that now might be the time for you two to drop the subject of racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:16 AM

You're probably right, Jack. I know how pointless these threads are - I keep returning to them in the way you keep prodding a sore tooth with your tongue...

I know that the sensible thing to do is to walk away, because WAV won't ever change his opinions on any of these topics, no matter how many very clever people (I'm not including myself, but referring to some of our esteemed colleagues) present evidence that there is no cultural or historical foundation for many of the beliefs which inform his world view. My instinct is always to confront bigotry, and bigotry is what I see in WAV's views - and while he insists on repeating those views ad infinitum, it is very hard not to challenge them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:16 AM

I prefer to challenge WAV on some of his more outrageous claims of musical issues. He can have all the aboriginal and Native American friends on myspace he wants, but he somehow (because he has never answered this point to me)believes that music has border checkpoints, that there is no cross pollinization, something which I believe Don Firth also pointed out. WAV has what he feels should be the strictest of all rules for English traditional music, yet he ignores the wise advice given to him by professional musicians who have countered his assertions. Again to WAV I quote Dave Swarbrick-you can do anything you want with music, it doesn't mind. That's the policy I stick with when I here such rigidity from the mind of WAV. Enjoy the music, promote it, share it with others. But to govern it WAV? Sorry, but I don't think it needs your type of governance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM

Also a valid point Irishenglish, but one I've read a number of times and not just from you. Maybe he just is not interested in your opinion.

He has shared his opinions you all have shared yours with him. I'm not an expert myself, but I'm fairly confident that his musical ability is not such that droves of young musicians will be emulating him and following him like some pied piper of musical values. So maybe its time to let that subject drop as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:56 AM

My last post to any of your threads for any reason at any time.

WAV, I believe you are exactly what I have said and you cloak it in the aura of something else. You say otherwise but I don't believe it.

I'm off your self aggrandizing threads for good.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

No offense Jack, but its not up to you to tell me to drop the subject. I'll keep trying to prod answers out of WAV, and whether you seek to read the process is up to you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:07 AM

No offense taken by be no offense meant to you. I'm just asking nicely, make your point once, or ten thousand times, its up to you. You are doing nothing wrong. It just seems tedious to me, and pointless, thats all. It looks like talking to a wall.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM

Ruth - as I've said before, you're someone who doesn't like immigration being questioned, so you try and label anyone who does as a bigot or a racist. And, when they give genuine non-racist reasons for doing so, you talk about what's underlying. Further, if you scroll back, this topic came up again when I frankly answered a question on it again, and my responses are somewhat repetative because the questions/accusations are.
Perhaps everyone who has posted here AGREES on liking our world being multicultural - the dispute is over whether trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law is a good idea, and whether immigration should be more restricted/regulated (I've said via a stronger UN). My concerns are certainly not just over England, by the way, I genuinely don't like moneyed English, Germans, etc. pricing young Spanish couples out of the Spanish property market - and, if I VISIT Spain again as a respectful TOURIST, I'd like another taste of SPANISH culture whilst there, frankly.
"believes that music has border checkpoints"...I believe, IE, there is more-and-more blending of cultures, globalisation, Americanisation; and, as I do like our world being multicultural, I'm at least trying to do something about it - as 50s and 60s folk-club organisers here did when they encouraged/insisted on folks performing music from their own culture.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:24 AM

The reason I haven't given up on WAV (yet) is that I don't believe he's a lost cause. It seems obvious to me that he holds views that are grounded in racism; I'm hoping that something that one of us says will make him realise this and reflect on it, rather than taking his usual approach of redefining 'racist' so that it won't apply to him.

I've also got a personal interest, as my wife's parents were both born a long way away & grew up speaking languages other than English. WAV seems to be saying that it would have been better for English culture if my wife's parents had never come here, in which case she would have been born somewhere else and I'd never have met her. Now, I love English culture, but I also love my wife, and I'm personally affronted by the idea that she's alien to it - she's part of it, just as much as I am.

I'm sure WAV will say that he's not thinking of people like my wife, but I can't see on what basis. If you want fewer foreigners to come here, that must mean you think it was a bad thing that so many foreigners have come here. People like my wife's parents.

So, WAV, a simple question, which you can answer in one word. Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:28 AM

I will say this for the last time, forgetting the race issue, forgetting the migration issue, Culture does not equal nationality. This is a fact.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM

"Ruth - as I've said before, you're someone who doesn't like immigration being questioned, so you try and label anyone who does as a bigot or a racist."

I am happy for real dialogue to take place, WAV, but you are not interested in real dialogue. You repeat the same points endlessly; you try to ringfence music and culture; whenever anyone points out the mistakes you've made in your reasoning, or the factual inaccuracies inherent in your attempt to invent a culturally pure version of Englishness, you ignore them or post yet another link to your website.

You do not approve of immigration to the UK because you feel economically threatened by it, and because you are afraid of English culture being damaged or diluted by the presence of other cultures. Read the OED definition again, WAV. Regardless of my own feelings on immigration, the dictionary defines this position as a racist one. Your response is to dismiss the OED definition.

There's only one person who's in denial here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:47 AM

Yes, Pip - but the particular country of origin does NOT matter to me (no need for you to list that few), except to say that genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their NEAREST safe country. And not just "cuturally" but socially as well - I believe the cliche of elders that they used to be able to leave their house-doors open. However, the most important thing is, given all the immigration that has occurred world-wide, what's best from now on - which brings us back to my last Weekly Walkabout, among others, "Global Regulationism."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM

Perhaps everyone who has posted here AGREES on liking our world being multicultural

I really don't think there is any realistic prospect of the world becoming monocultural.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:01 AM

"You do not approve of immigration to the UK" (Ruth)...I don't approve of the UK (as mentioned in the "No Football Olympics" below): the UK, The Commonwealth, The EU, etc. should all be dissolved - apart from some local government within nations, all we all need is our own nation and the United Nations. And England should continue to accept it's share of genuine asylum seekers, in line with my last post, and some immigration (medical, love/marriage, etc.) but NOT economic/capitalist immigration.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM

Yes, Pip - but the particular country of origin does NOT matter to me (no need for you to list that few)

Thanks for answering the question. I listed the countries and regions from which most immigrants have come to England, since about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began in your words.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM

One thing needs to be done in the world, and it would permanently solve the problems that arise from economically-inspired immigration (the movement of vast numbers of people from impoverished areas of he world to richer areas of the world).

That one thing would be to provide a decent standard of living and equally good employment opportunities and equally good social justice to people in every part of the world.

That would be the real solution. That would be the enlightened solution.

It hasn't been attempted, however, because humanity is presently disunited, divided against one another, and ruled by various elites of oligarchs, captains of industry and commerce...robber barons who prefer things just the way they are now...so they can get even richer.

And there is your problem, in a nutshell. We need world liberation from the forces presently running the show.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM

Nicely avoided, WAV. The POINT of my message was that "You do not approve of immigration to the UK because you feel economically threatened by it, and because you are afraid of English culture being damaged or diluted by the presence of other cultures."

By this criteria, using the OED definition, you are a racist. It is not your "questioning of immigration" which makes you so, it is the grounds upon which that questioning is based.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

.............hmmmnnnnnnnn, that's the trouble with having holidays abroad, there's far too many foreigners there!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM

Actually, Ruth, people are economically threatened when very large numbers of immigrants from impoverished societies come into a wealthier society and are willing to work jobs at a wretchedly low levels of pay and under wretchedly bad conditions.

That kind of thing has always caused great social stress in any society where it occurred, not just in the UK, but everywhere, and it hurts many people (both locals and immigrants)...but it plays into the hands of the employers and industrialists, because:

1. they want to keep wages down
2. they want cheap labour who will put up with bad working conditions
3. they want to keep a certain number of people unemployed at all times, because that puts the public at their mercy, so to speak, and people will then accept marginal employment, low wages, and bad conditions, because they have no choice.

To oppose that sort of thing is natural, and it has nothing to do with racism (although it often results in a racist reaction setting in amongst some local people who aren't very deep thinkers). It has to do with general human rights and workers rights all over the world.

I think you are just becoming emotionally wedded to your own past arguments on this thread to the extent now that you have to prove it to yourself that WAV is a "racist", otherwise your past argument would be "wrong"! And that would trouble your ego, wouldn't it?

On the other hand, maybe WAV is a diabolically clever closet racist who has deliberately set this entire discussion up just so that Ruth and Little Hawk and various other forum members can disagree over it and end up hating each other! ;-) (and now the paranoia REALLY sets in...OUCH!)

Yeah, well, anything's possible, isn't it? I haven't read enough of this thread to be sure about it one way or another, but I don't think it's wise or judicious to label other people as "racists". I really don't. Not unless you are 100 % sure, and maybe not even then.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:15 AM

To oppose that sort of thing is natural, and it has nothing to do with racism

I entirely agree. You're describing opposition to immigration on economic grounds - which isn't racist. WAV is expressing opposition to immigration on cultural grounds - which is.

I don't think it's wise or judicious to label other people as "racists"

If someone expresses what I think are Christian or Marxist or Tory views, I'm quite likely to comment that I think they're a Christian or a Marxist or a Tory. WAV has expressed what I think are racist views.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM

An equal opportunity bigot. Doesn't care WHICH country of origin they come from. Some people target specific groups, you see.

Anyway, WAV, are you or aren't you going to answer my questions?

I just thought of another point. YOu say that immigration is ok in instances such as falling in love on holiday. Ok, I agree, but would the grand UN council you want look at cases in such depth?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:32 AM

Little Hawk, let me make myself even clearer: WAV has always denied being a racist becuase, as he says, "Racism is when you say they are all like this or that." Which is a rather peurile and superficial understanding of the concept from someome who claims anthropological qualifications.

Someone recently posted the OED definition of racism, and because he disagreed with it, WAV dismissed it out of hand. My recent attempts to pin WAV down were based on this definition, not on my own views, as you'll see if you examine my posts more closely. Why? Because I think he needs to examine his own views a bit more deeply, and to realise that racism is more subtle and more nuanced than he really understands.

My ego is irrelevant to this particular argument. I don't think anyone has said anything to prove that WAV is not at least xenophobic, and I believe his cultural insularity and paranoia translate to racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM

Objection to immigration on cultural grounds may or may not be racist, depending on to what extent and in what specific regards you are concerned about cultural issues.

Every population in the world has become annoyed or fearful at one time or another over various troubling cultural issues that arose out of immigration. So what? That happens. It happens everywhere. It happens both ways (in the breasts of both locals and immigrants). It doesn't necessarily indicate that people are "racists", it indicates that they are uncomfortable with customs and behaviours that are unfamiliar to them.

For instance, in Canada the following issue has arisen:

Should Sikh police officers in Canada be allowed to wear a turban instead of the standard police headgear while on duty? (I say "yes, sure, if they want to". Many people say "No, because if they want that job they should be willing to wear the normal uniform.")

That's not a "racist" issue, no matter how you stand on it. It's a cultural issue of what people think is right and proper normal behaviour while on the job. To a traditional Sikh, it's improper not to wear his turban. To the average traditional Canadian non-Sikh, it's improper not to wear the normal police headgear.

Neither one is being racist, but they are both clinging to cultural habits that mean something to them.

I simply don't give a damn one way or the other, so my inclination would be to let Sikhs wear turbans while on duty if they want to. I don't see why it matters...but I am more flexible on traditions than most people are.

You see, it's not that I'm necessarily less racist than they are...it's that I cling less rigidly to established tradition, that's all. To cling to traditions and rules and to expect others to do that also does not equate to being a racist...it simply equates to being somewhat inflexible in an emotional and behavioural sense...and most people are like that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:38 AM

yes, but what you AREN'T saying, Little Hawk, is that the Sikh police officer shouldn't even be there in the first place because his very presence undermines the indigenous culture.

This , unless I am very much mistaken, is WAV's position.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:55 AM

Okay, well, I don't know if that's his position or not, Ruth.

Maybe we should ask him?

I think it's always wise to keep immigration to a country limited to a certain extent...because too much immigration destabilizes a society...the question is to what extent do you limit it? And that's where people always disagree. Imagine what would happen in the USA, for example, if all of Latin American were simply allowed free access? A civil war, that's what would happen. Millions of people would be at each others' throats, and it would become utter chaos.

I think WAV simply feels that there has been too much immigration into the UK in the last few decades. He may be quite right about that. To feel that there has been too much of something does not equate to being against all of it on principle.

You can have too much of anything. (even dachshunds)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

Because WAV refuses to be too specific about his beliefs (referring us instead to his website), there is bound to be some speculation here, LittleHawk. But my interpretation, after many months, is:

- England was better before immigration because it was "more English".

- Ideally, the immigration to England, largely by groups of Asian and Caribbean people, would not have happened

- Cultures should not be encouraged to mix, because the indigenous culture becomes "diluted" and loses its identity.


These views, to me, constitute racism. Especially as nearly 86% of the population, even today, is still White British - hardly a case of the indigenous culture being "swamped" by foreigners.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:11 AM

by the way, once you add in other "white" categories such as Irish, the percentage goes up to 92%.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

Ruth,

If he was talking only about the influx of Irish and Welsh and Scots, would it be racist then?

I think not. I think it might be some sort of cultural chauvinism, but not racism. And since he is talking about keeping the "nations" of the UK separate, then can you really clearly say that it is purely racism.

By the way this is the definition of racism I use. The issues of wage competition seem tangental to it.

racism


Main Entry:
rac·ism
Pronunciation:
\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
— rac·ist \-sist also -shist\ noun or adjective


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Cultural chauvinism is pretty much universal, isn't it? When it passes a certain extreme point, though, then people may characterize it as "racism"...and sometimes that label is appropriate...but more often, it is not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

Da ting about newfies is dat haldough dey don't want dere culture polluted dey don't worry cause da weder keeps da himmigunts haway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

"One thing needs to be done in the world, and it would permanently solve the problems that arise from economically-inspired immigration (the movement of vast numbers of people from impoverished areas of he world to richer areas of the world).

That one thing would be to provide a decent standard of living and equally good employment opportunities and equally good social justice to people in every part of the world.

That would be the real solution. That would be the enlightened solution.

It hasn't been attempted, however, because humanity is presently disunited, divided against one another, and ruled by various elites of oligarchs, captains of industry and commerce...robber barons who prefer things just the way they are now...so they can get even richer.

And there is your problem, in a nutshell. We need world liberation from the forces presently running the show."...I agree LH - except we need regualtionism NOT liberalism to reduce the inequality within and between nations.

"and I believe his cultural insularity and paranoia translate to racism." ("Ruth")...I've travelled through about 40 countries - on a shoestring, staying among the people and NOT in Hiltons like many so-called "world leaders".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

Better believe it. Lard t'underin' Jaysus, hit gets cold and damp over dere in Newfieland!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

I was thinking the same think JtS. French and German are not races but VAV does not want them in England either. I think he has built himself a very small box and thinks the rest of us should live in small boxes as well but I don't think he is necessarily racist.

I do have a question for WAV. I live in the middle of the USA. My ancestors came here from England, Scotland and Germany anywhere from 150 to 350 (or so) years ago. What songs do you think I should sing?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

If he was talking only about the influx of Irish and Welsh and Scots, would it be racist then?

Yes. He's saying that only one national/ethnic/cultural group belongs in England, and that the presence of other groups is detrimental to English culture. In other words, he's dividing people into racial groups and saying that those racial groups should stay separate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

I have called him xenophobic as well...use that term if you prefer. It's not any nicer than racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

No Pip Radish, those are not separate races those are slightly different cultures at most. Though the attitude he expresses does seem extreme. Would an economic refugee from Newcastle be forced to settle in York or Sheffield or would they be allowed all the way to London. And if so, would they not dilute the culture of whatever part of London they settled in?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

"small box"!? just after I mentioned my (much enjoyed) travels. And, if I were you, KB in Iowa, I'd probably be into performing Country or Rock music. However, I only listen to those American genres, as well as the chants and drums of Amerindians, because I'm an Englishman.
And Pip, can't you at least accept that I am NOT against any ethnic group - I'm questioning the act of immigration itself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

I meant that you live in a small box. You have demonstrated a willingness to visit other boxes but you want the contents to stay put.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

Upthread a bit, WAV says

"I believe the cliche of elders that they used to be able to leave their house-doors open."

When WAV attributes this to immigration, as to his racism and bigotry, what more does anyone need?

I've heard this exact same reason given for "red-lining" neighborhoods!

If WAV does not consider himself to be a racist (and most racists do not), perhaps a large dose of self-examination is in order.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

And, if I were you, KB in Iowa, I'd probably be into performing Country or Rock music. Would this apply to anyone from the US who is not of Amerindian ancestry?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM

...what music fills your Iowa "box", KB?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

"What songs do you think I should sing?"

I keep asking him the same thing seeing as I have a Welsh mum and English dad.

As is the way with this sort of thing though, why let reality get in the way of a poor argument?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

As someone born in Newfoundland the traditional music I grew up with came from the eight corners of the globe so to speak. Our sailors and workers venturing forth and returning home and other sailors visiting our ports brought and spread our music all over the world. My box was the world and modern broadcast media made it even more so.

That's a good thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM

I don't know WAV. Country derives from bluegrass, which derives from the balladry of English and Irish music originally, so I guess that simply won't do. Rock derives from blues and country, the blues part of that derives from African music, so I guess that simply won't do either. Wait, jazz-no, that comes from a similar source to blues. Cajun, no that derives from Acadia, so thats out. I've got it! The only musical form us Americans, (and this goes for my Canadian friends as well!) can properly play is Native American music. Oh, but wait a sec. I'm not native american. My ancestry comes from Ireland. Oh crap! I can't play music here because following what WAV said , " many reading this will know as well or better than I the perform-your-own policies of 50s and 60s folk-clubs here" then ANY attempt at my singing anything will be tantamount to neglection of the one, truest form of American indigenous music, that being Native American. So WAV, thanks for clearing that up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

You like me, Stigweard, should perform E. trads plus hymns and, perhaps, have a go at the works of some of our classical composers; further, if you ever visit Beijing, you may, again like me, wish to try Peking duck - apparently some of the Oympic swimmers have done very well on it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

those are not separate races those are slightly different cultures at most

Racism isn't based on biologically real 'races' (not least because there aren't any). There's no Irish 'race', but "dis tick Paddy" jokes are still racist.

can't you at least accept that I am NOT against any ethnic group

That's exactly what I can't accept - because if it were true you wouldn't have the views that you do. If my neighbour told me they wished I'd never moved to their street, I'd conclude that they disliked me - even if they tried to tell me otherwise. If someone says they try to avoid working with Jews, I conclude that they're prejudiced against Jews - even if they say they're not. And if someone says they wish non-English people hadn't come to England, I conclude that they're prejudiced against people with a non-English background *in* England.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

Don makes an excellent point:

'Upthread a bit, WAV says

"I believe the cliche of elders that they used to be able to leave their house-doors open."

When WAV attributes this to immigration, as to his racism and bigotry, what more does anyone need?'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

I keep stessing Pip - given all the immigration that has occurred all around the world, what is best FROM NOW ON?; and I'm sure it should be restricted, by the UN, much more than the status quo - including making FUTURE economic/capitalist immigration/emigration illegal. (And the USA could set a good example toward this by ending the Green Card lottery scheme.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

WAV, on the one hand you believe,

" And England should continue to accept it's share of genuine asylum seekers, in line with my last post, and some immigration (medical, love/marriage, etc.) but NOT economic/capitalist immigration."

And on the other you believe,

" that genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their NEAREST safe country. And not just "cuturally" but socially as well."

That's a contradiction. So which is it, and what do you mean by the nearest safe country? Haitians should be returned to what, the Dominican Republic? Western Saharans should be returned to...Spa...I mean Moro...oh no, Mauritania, yes thats it. So if I was to venture a guess, I would say you are saying that asylum seekers who have been persecuted for political, religous, or sexual grounds, rather than economic grounds are acceptable. Except when, for some reason (and here's the contradiction) they are not, in which case they should be helped to their nearest safe country, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Keep in mind, I'm only discussing your notions of genuine asylum seekers here, not immigration. You made the distinction, so keep it confined to that. Please, tell me on what possible basis and precedent do you have for thinking the "nearest safe country" is a viable option? Give me an example. It does not seem grounded in any sense of reality. Its a nice notion perhaps, but its not at all likely. What if what you propose as the "nearest safe country" doesn't want asylum seekers. What if the UN deemed that the UK would be the nearest safe country for all the South Ossetians and Georgians left homeless, right now as we speak? What if unspeakable human rights violations were happening in a Commonwealth nation. Wouldn't that make Britain the de facto nearest safe nation?

Also regarding what you said about immigration, what you label economic/capitalist immigration. I'll not even discuss that one, but I find your use of economic/capitalist interesting. Call me crazy, but I've never heard of an immigrant from lets say, Guatemala, consider their act of immigration capitalist. For economic reasons, of course, but capitalist? I can't make a living here in Guatemala, so I'm going to the US for capitalist reasons. Doesn't scan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:30 PM

"I have called him xenophobic as well...use that term if you prefer. It's not any nicer than racism."

True, Ruth, but you have not called him apoplectic, tandependentious or nihilistic yet, and I, for one, am relieved about that.

Would anyone mind if I attempt to bring dachshunds into the discussion at some point? (anyone except Spaw, that is, but I gather he's boycotting this thread now anyway, so never mind)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

When you hear someone say, "I'm not a racist, but—," you know bloody well that they are a racist.

At the university I met exchange students from all over the world, some of whom stayed here after completing their schooling. I got the Arab slant on the Arab-Israeli conflict from a young Egyptian. I first heard sitar music played by Nazir Jairazbhoy one afternoon and saw a sitar for the first time. He later did a record for Ethnic-Folkways. Nazir didn't stay in the U. S. He wanted to work on his musical skills, so he went to where he felt the best sitar teachers were to be found:   London. Deb Das, also from India, had one of the most brilliant minds I've ever encountered. We spent hours talking politics and philosophy. And there were others.

Good friends of my wife's and mine are Hieu, his wife Tang, and their son Long. They're from Vietnam. Hieu is a chef. Brilliant. When he lays out a meal, in addition to being an exquisite adventure in flavors, it is a work of art. We also have a couple of friends from Bali.

In the building in which we live, there are two Chinese (one a doctor, the other a student), a young Belgian woman, and Simon, upstairs, who is from South Africa.

A tiny sampling of the immigrants to this country who have greatly enriched my life.

In fact, I went to broadcasting school with a young man from England. He was working hard to get rid of his English accent and sound like an American announcer. I encouraged him to keep his English accent because it would set him apart and could be a sort of trademark for him.

Almost forgot. I also went to university with a lovely young English girl named Phyllis Brooks. Absolutely charming!

Seattle is a real "melting-pot" of different nationalities and cultures. I feel privileged to live in such a city.

I have traveled, but I have a lot of it right here. I don't have to go "Walkabout."

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

Don, how many times have I pointed out on this forum that virtually everyone has some racist tendencies?

(That's a rhetorical question.)

Now, how do we decide who is to be called a racist and who is not to be? I'll tell you how. We decide, in our inveterate self-righteousness that WE ourselves are above such criticism...ah, yes, lily-white and spotless in our idealism...but someone else is not...and we call him a "racist".

Let (s)he who is without "sin" cast the first stone. No one here qualifies to do that to another person here in that fashion. That's why I object to it. It's like calling someone a "witch" in Salem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

I dunno, LittleHawk...when someone repeatedly and dogmatically presents their blueprint for a new world order, constantly drawing attention to their writings on the subject and endlessly starting threads so that these very views can be expressed (English instruments, English folk awards, English music etc), they are inviting others to engage with and judge those views. If others find those views dubious, and see within them an inherent racism, why should they not respond accordingly?

That's not the same as crying "racist" every time someone expresses an opinion you don't agree with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM

given all the immigration that has occurred all around the world, what is best FROM NOW ON?; and I'm sure it should be restricted

You've conceded that you believe less immigration would have been better, so it's not just about FROM NOW ON. I'm sure you don't bear any malice towards actual English people of immigrant stock, but your starting-point is still "you're OK, but I wish you hadn't come here" - or, at the very least,"you're OK, but we don't want any more of your kind here".

You believe immigration should be restricted so that different cultures don't mix. You believe that native cultures shouldn't mix with immigrant cultures, and that native cultures will suffer if they do, and that people's freedom of movement should be restricted so as to stop this happening. You've spelt all this out many times.

What you've never explained is how this viewpoint is compatible with not being a racist. Here's that OED definition, in full this time:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

LH: I'm well aware that I have racist views; I grew up in the 1970s, when a certain level of racism was taken for granted, and you never entirely leave the attitudes you grow up with behind. For that reason, if someone does call me out on a turn of phrase or a way of thinking which they think is racist, I take it seriously and think hard about it. That's all I'm asking WAV to do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

". . . virtually everyone has some racist tendencies. . . ."

That is a opinion and a generalization on your part, Little Hawk. But even if true, there are those who do not act on it, nor do they base their political beliefs and social actions and activities on whatever residual racism they may hold. And when and if they do find it in themselves, it becomes a matter for some heavy soul-searching.

There are othes, however, who would have us all act on their racist views.

Even the United Nations!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:46 PM

And that sort of thing demands a response.

I don't know who said it, but it's true. "All it takes for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing."

'Scuse me for getting my dander up, but them's my sediments!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:01 PM

I understand what you're saying, Don, Ruth, and Pip...

I guess I haven't read enough of WAV's stuff to be sure of what all he is saying. Haven't got time to, actually. Well, maybe in a bit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:44 PM

I would find it interesting, by the way, to just discuss immigration in a general sense, and see what people think about it.

As things are now in the world, immigration already IS quite restricted. It's not easy in the least to get into most countries as a permanent immigrant. You have to satisfy numerous conditions.

One thing does make it easy, though. If you're rich enough, almost anyone will take you as an immigrant. ;-)

And that is unjust. But it's pragmatic, of course.

Now, here's the basic problem in the world: gross economic inequality. That is the engine that drives millions of people to seek to emigrate. Secondarily, many people wish to emigrate because their countries are dangerous, and their lives are insecure.

THAT is the essential problem.

A real solution to the world's dilemmas does not lie in tinkering with immigration laws, it lies in establishing peace in the international community, and achieving social and economic justice.

The USA today spends over half of the entire world's arms expenditures? To do what? To fight wars on the soil of unfortunate nations, that's what. The UK, Canada, France, Russia, and many other countries also are major participants in arms production and directly or indirectly contributing to maintaining a world at war.

That is the great issue of our time, not our troubles with immigration.

It is the moral bankruptcy of those WITH the most money and power which is destabilizing the whole world, because they are making no serious attempt to achieve either peace or economic and social justice in the world.

Now...if we had peace in the world, and if we had a reasonably good standard of living all over the world, then that in itself would solve the problem of immigration. People would not need to emigrate to secure a safe and prosperous existence, and most would be happy to remain on the land they were born on under that circumstance.

But no nation is seriously addressing that. And therein lies the hypocrisy of our times.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Amen to that, Little Hawk!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:11 AM

Everything you've said is spot on, LittleHawk. Sometimes governments stir up immigration (and other) paranoia as a smokescreen to hide the real issues, which are vast.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:43 AM

To IE - genuine asylum seekers should be helped, via the UN, to their NEAREST (particularly in terms of CULTURE) safe country. And the way the world is now, with almost global capitalism, one can say either capitalist or economic immigration/emigration.
To Don - via TV, I've seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA; and, on my travels, I've also had some friendship from most of those ethnic groups you mention. I'll say it until I'm hoarse - there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being racist.
And, to Pip, I think within a nation there should be assimilation or "blending" as you put it - without losing respect for indigenous cultures.
And the last couple of posts bring us back to capitalism and my last Weekly Walkabout - "Global Regulationism" instead of capitalism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM

To avoid polluting the Ian Campbell thread, I'm moving this down here:

From Les in Chorlton:
"As Ruth alludes Ian's sons were singers / guitarist in the mighty UB40 one of the most important bands ever to come out of anywhere. Named after Unemployment Benefit form 40 they wrote and performed music that recorded and damned the Thatcherite policies of the 1980s that condemned millions of people to a life of poverty without work. UB40 are a collection of African-Caribbean and white brummy musicians who more or less created a new musical genre. Although a very long way from TICFG they created music that was exciting and said what needed to be said about the lives of us all and so had a link to the traditional music of this country.



Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:03 AM

Les: just for the record, he has two other sons who weren't in UB40 as well...both have recorded with him.

I knew Ian and Lorna for a while in the early 90s in Birmingham. I didn't know he had moved to Ireland, either.

I remember going to Ian's album launch in Digbeth in around 1992, and their mum, who I think had come down from Scotland specially, singing A Bunch of Thyme. Lovely.


Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM

Like Ewan MacColl, I think Ian has a great gritty folk voice; but it's a shame if his sons have indeed gone into American pop rather than English folk.

Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:01 AM

" it's a shame if his sons have indeed gone into American pop rather than English folk."

UB40 were an English Reggae band. as the band itself was mixed race, there was no better expression of the musical and cultural values of Birmingham in the 1980s, and they went on to be one of the biggest-selling bands in the world. And they made some brilliant songs.

Only you, WAV, could find this unfortunate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:18 AM

I respect, rather, Ruth, musicians who are good at their own culture's music (including the late Bob Marley); The Beatles, by the way, even tried talking with American accents.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 AM

Well, maybe you could explain to me what their "own culture" was in respect of UB40: they grew up in Balsall Heath in Birmingham, in a very culturally diverse neighbourhood. Their father is a Scot who was living in England. So what was their culture - the one they saw all around them (made up of African Caribbean music, food cultures etc), the folk music their father played, which he wrote while living in England, or the music of his native Scotland, which formed part of their heritage?

See, when you're dealing with real life, WAV, it's not so eay to fit people into little boxes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:44 AM

I'll say it until I'm hoarse - there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being racist.

WAV, nobody here denies that. However, there is no difference between questioning immigration on racist grounds and being racist. I believe the grounds on which you oppose immigration are racist, and I've tried to explain to you why I think that. You seem to be unable to see your arguments as others see them.

I think within a nation there should be assimilation or "blending" as you put it - without losing respect for indigenous cultures.

I didn't use the word 'blending'! One more time:

You believe immigration should be restricted so that different cultures don't mix. You believe that native cultures shouldn't mix with immigrant cultures, and that native cultures will suffer if they do, and that people's freedom of movement should be restricted so as to stop this happening. You've spelt all this out many times.

What you've never explained is how this viewpoint is compatible with not being a racist. Here's that OED definition, in full this time:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

Please quote what I actually write the next time - it'll make it much easier to see what you agree or disagree with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:02 AM

>>You seem to be unable to see your arguments as others see them.

Pip could that charge be leveled at you? I don't see the racism in his arguments. I see misguided (in my opinion) cultural chauvinism certainly, but not racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

I dunno, Jack - if you go back over the numerous threads started by WAV which eventually end up being about his cultural isolationism, you'll find that many Mudcatters in recent months have perceived WAV's views exactly as Pip doe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:43 AM

Is there no room for miscommunication here? It that the Merriam-Webster or the OED definition of racist?





;-D
Will that be the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:47 AM

Whatever. I know what I think, and it's based purely on the views that he has repeatedly expressed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:48 AM

300 !!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:58 AM

Pip could that charge be leveled at you?

No, absolutely not. I see every side of all my arguments, including the sides that other people see and I don't. Except that I do see them, because I see every side of my arguments, as I said to begin with.

Seriously, I take your point! I may be seeing racism where it's not there. On the other hand, I know that it's possible not to see racism when it is there - particularly in one's own views.

The way it works with WAV, I think, is that he doesn't see the implications of the views he proclaims. WAV hasn't said that he'd like to make my wife take an Englishness test and deport her if she fails - in fact I'm sure he'd recoil from the idea - but it's the logical implication of his views. If you believe 'mass immigration' was bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here. If you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

If, on the other hand, all you're saying is that indigenous cultures (including English cultures) should be respected, then (a) I agree with you 100% and (b what you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with immigration, which you can therefore shut up about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:04 AM

I donno Pip, you seem to be reading a lot into his words that he did not intend. That seems like miscommunication to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:09 AM

"You like me, Stigweard, should perform E. trads plus hymns and, perhaps, have a go at the works of some of our classical composers;"

Well, I did ask for it, and at least you've replied WAV, so thanks.

But why should I perform English trad? I don't mind it, and I love the singing of the Watersons, Coppers et al, but it doesn't float my boat like the Irish stuff does.

What about my Welsh heritage? Should I abandon that completely? Although born and brought up in England the Welsh side of my family had a deep formative influence. In fact, that sense of being Welsh was a tangible part of our upbringing and although many Welsh people might disagree with me in my soul I feel as Welsh as I do English.

As for the hymns, forget it. I enjoy singing hymns for their own sake but to me monotheism is an anathema and I don't see why I should worship a God who has contributed to the suffering of so many of my ancestors and people in the world today.

I'll stick with 'Fathom the Bowl' and 'Follow me up to Carlow'.

Twll dy din de!

stigweard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM

Once again WAV,

To IE - genuine asylum seekers should be helped, via the UN, to their NEAREST (particularly in terms of CULTURE) safe country. And the way the world is now, with almost global capitalism, one can say either capitalist or economic immigration/emigration

This is nothing resembling an answer to what I wrote. I asked you to give me an example, you have none forthcoming-I think because you honestly do not have an actual answer. That's why you quote verbatim again and again. You who espouse so much, cannot give me an answer. I also caught you with a contradiction. Your own words. Two different statements regarding what you call genuine asylum seekers. You're not even going to defend that, or explain that?

Myself, and LH, and Ruth, Pip, Don, and all the others can reflect and answer direct questions in a thorough and thought provoking manner. YOUR ANSWER TO MY QUESTION WAS THE SUBJECT OF MY QUESTION! Sorry for the caps, but that is a cop-out.
Answer please for me, the sensible questions asked of you by myself and others without resorting to a cut and paste job.

By the way Jack, that was never 5 minutes!
I told you, I can't argue with you unless you've paid!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

IE, that's not argument, it's just contradiction. :)

Is Fathom the Bowl Irish...?

Off to Whitby now. I hope Louis Killen sings some Irish songs. Play nicely...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:56 AM

Sorry Pip - you said "mix" not "blend" and I - and even, to a lesser extent, New (Scottish) Labour, after a decade of pro-immigrationism/celebrating the diverse state - say assimilation and greater restriction/regulation of immigration: for several (NOT one, as you just suggested) reasons (above and here).
"cultural chauvinism" (Jack!)...that's NOT me either - I love the world being multiculatural and cetainly don't want what some Victorians may have - a world full of English-like men and women.
"cultural isolationism" (Ruth)...that's NOT me either - I'm saying fair-trade and eco-travel between nations (such as my 40 countries).
Stigweard - you clearly see yourself as Bittish and I as English. By the way, another reason for RESTRICTING myself to an English (or thereabouts) repertoire is because there is just so much good folk music out there, and I have only so much time and ability; however, my main one is that I think nationalism WITHOUT imperialism (e.g., English NOT Brittish) is good for humanity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

What's wrong WAV-no answer for me?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:20 AM

How is reggae American, or is that your shorthand for 'music I don't like', WAV?

Has anyone seen the French film The Adventures of Rabbi Jacob?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:48 AM

"What's wrong WAV-no answer for me?" (IE)...there was no contradiction and I DID explain what I meant by "nearest"...then you went on about "returning" which I hadn't said anything about.
And, Ruth, I never said reggae was American, either - but it's from the Caribbean, which is part of the Americas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM

What was nearest for a Jew in the 1930s?

Sounds like one of two possibilities. One, either you have no idea what UB40 plays and thus spoke out of ignorance, or two, you were saying that reggae is American.

"Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM

Like Ewan MacColl, I think Ian has a great gritty folk voice; but it's a shame if his sons have indeed gone into American pop rather than English folk."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM

Volgadon...I seem to recall someone had mentioned 2 sons in a pop band, and pop is one of the American genres of music. "What was nearest for a Jew in the 1930s?"...That would depend, and I think you would know more about that than me, frankly, but do you agree that, after the war, the Jewish people probably should have been given their own nation within Europe?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:31 AM

"but do you agree that, after the war, the Jewish people probably should have been given their own nation within Europe? "

What the f***? There were Jewish Germans, Jewish Poles, Jewish etc etc, not just Jews.

And what country does 'folk' belong to? Oh, sorry, none of them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

So, you admit to not even knowing what the sons were playing. Various forms of American music are only part of the influences hat made up pop. I would go so far as to say that pop owes just as much to Britain as it does to the USA.
To my ears, this really doesn't sound very American at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQAR-nx4w88
Or this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J3gX47rHGg&feature=related

So, if the Jews were given their own nation within Europe, where does that leave the Jews of Morroco, Algiera, Kurdistan and Yemen, to name but a few?
And no, I don't agree that they should have been given a nation within Europe.
Anyway, what would it depend on?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

That's pedantic bullshit WAV. Helped-Returned. Either way you are saying that genuine asylum seekers should be brought to another place nearest to where they are from-correct? There absolutely IS contradiction in the two statements you made that I quoted. England should continue to accept its share of genuine asylum seekers AND genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their nearest safe country. CONTRADICTION. Examples? Where have you explained what you mean by nearest? I asked for a specific example-you offered me none. You answered my question with the question itself. THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER. How about this then. I'll answer the question. You can't answer my questions because you don't know the answers. Theories are fine, I have my own. But if you cannot, or are unwilling to back them up with precedent, then you will not convince me of anything. I repeat-ANYTHING.

And Volgadon and Joseph are spot on regarding a post war European Jewish nation WAV. Maybe the Gypsy's should have been given a European nation too WAV. Lets see, you have Gypsies from Romania, Hungary, Spain, France....oh yeah, that makes complete sense. After all, they are all Gypsy's right? They all should be placed together.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM

I ... say assimilation and greater restriction/regulation of immigration

And around we go again. Some way up thread, I asked you "Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?" You answered "Yes".

Now, if you believe 'mass immigration' has been bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here: there's no other way to limit immigration. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

What am I missing? How am I misinterpreting you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

Volgadon, I seem to recall, now lives in Israel, having left Europe and this, along with other things posted, tells me that she (I think?) probably does know more about this than me, as said; but a lot of people from Europe (from many lands as you say, Joseph) who practice the Jewish religion left to settle in Israel, where there has sadly been a lot of ethnic conflict, over land, since.
You're missing the "given that all that immigration has occurred, WHAT'S BEST FROM NOW ON" part, Pip.
IE - I said, repeatedly, culture is the most important aspect when considering the nearest safe country for an asylum seeker.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

If this thread had legs it would be in the Olympics...long distance runners' division. ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

So again, I say, give me a hypothetical here WAV. An asylum seeker from Cuba trying to enter the US should be helped to what nearest safe country? Again I ask, what if said nation does not seek, nor want asylum seekers? Again I ask when, since you contradicted yourself, you determine what factors constitute allowable genuine asylum? You are the one who said it, I'm trying to fill in the many blanks you have left. You are saying within your certain rules, in your case England, should allow asylum seekers, but in other cases, a deliberate choice would be made to send an asylum seeker elsewhere. SOmewhere with a similar culture, since you feel that is the most important thing. What if THAT culture exists only within the country someone is fleeing from? Then what? And, like the chicken and the egg, or what is folk, how do YOU propose to define what that culture is? Is it language only? Ancient culture? Music? Cinema? Architecture? Fashion?

Keep digging that hole WAV.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM

B-Zing! B-Zing! B-Zing! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! B-Zing!

(sound of hamster running furiously on inner mental exercise wheel inside next poster's brain...)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

IE - an Honours in Humanities must be easier than trying to answer your serial questioning...you make some of my BA tutors seem soporific.
1. the nearest Spanish-speaking nation I suppose - I think Fidel himself was in Mexico for a while before his brave successful return.
2. Well it's not the nearest safe country then, is it?
3. the standard factors - threat due to beliefs etc.
4. The UN should take control and determine who and which is the nearest safe country for them.
5. I said nearest NOT the exact same culture!!!
6. It's all those things - WONTS.
7. If I were to "keep digging", I'd hope NOT to end up in your backyard, with all due respect, IE.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

P.S: no cigars, and I don't even know if it got there, but I did send a copy of "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse" to the main library in Havana.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

You're missing the "given that all that immigration has occurred, WHAT'S BEST FROM NOW ON" part, Pip.

You're missing a question you've already answered, WAV. Some way upthread, I asked you "Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?" You answered "Yes".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Yes I said "yes", Pip, and yes I said immigration/emigration regulation/restrictions should increase - the world over, via a stronger UN.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Sorry, but I live in the city. I don't have a backyard, unless Central Park counts. Fidel's brave successful return is not something a lot of Cubans would call it WAV.

Ok, well thanks all the same, because at least that was some clarification. Before you accuse me of being soporific, I would suggest atempting to answer some of the questions put to you, respectfully. What you suggest would also entail a rather large UN infastructure in place, in virtually every nation on earth dedicated solely to this problem. I'm not exaggerating when I say that either. If you want the UN to make these determinations, then there would have to be employees in place to determine who is a viable candidate for asylum-ie, those seeking refuge for their political, religous, and sexual grounds (by this I mean sexual orientation, as well as sexual crime against women). That would have to be a massive infastructure, and it would have to coexist with the border controls already in place in each nation.

Of course, there are people who make that determination now, who do not work for the UN, my aunt is one of them-in her case in Ireland. It's a tough call. I don't know if it has changed, but I know that in Ceuta, there were hundreds of Africans housed in a complex, overseen by the Spanish, who were waiting to get into a EU country. So on top of its own border operations, you had the costs of running this facility as well. I'm all for ideas WAV, and I believe that there is a need for a different approach, but I don't believe your ideas are possible. Nice though they may be, but there is a lot of reality out there that isn't so nice.

I mentioned previously the rather sad plight of the Saharawis, living in camps in Algeria for 30 or so years. I have always hoped for a stronger UN WAV. Despite it all, all the diatrabe that goes on here at Mudcat, including from myself, despite all that, I wish the UN could come up with solutions for situations like that. Sadly, its not the case. What can I do? I can petition for human rights, I can make people aware of political and social strife. I can share my thoughts and feelings and educate, and be educated. The one thing I can't do is profess that I have the answers. No one person does.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

pop is one of the American genres of music

Given the truly international input into pop music and its deep roots in African & European cultures, how on earth can you say that it's one of the American genres?

Where's Spleen when you need him? Pop, like Folk, is not a genre, it is a process that has yielded a plethora of distinctive musics - certainly as distinctive & culturally significant as Folk, if not more so. Here's a few names for you to Google: Magma, Soft Machine, Gong, Univers Zero, Sigur Ros, David Bowie, Roxy Music, Third Ear band, The Man Band, Henry Cow, Jabula, etc. etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

No - I didn't say you were soporific, IE; I lightheartedly suggested you can be quite demanding. I have been to New York and, as well as Central Park, I made a visit to the UN; one thing I remember liking is the idea of one nation/one vote (which, I think you'll agree, both your nation and mine have sadly overridden). And, if it does become stronger/better respected, there will surely be less suffering in our world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Yes I said "yes", Pip.

OK. So, explain something to me. If you believe 'mass immigration' has been bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here: there's no other way to limit immigration. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

Am I right? If not, how am I misinterpreting you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:12 PM

Yes, Pip - but with some qualifications that I made above, regarding the different kinds of immigration/reasons for emigrating. There are some immigrants in England, e.g., who also think that, FROM NOW ON, restrictions should increase/numbers decrease.
And it's surely silly to say that because something has gone on for so long, it must continue. Slave immigration sadly went on legally for a long time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

Volgadon is a he, not from Europe, born and bred in Israel, who spent a few years in Russia just recently. His parents are American, one half of the family isn't Jewish, but of very old Anglo-Scottish extraction, sprinkled with a few Norwegians and Danes. The other half, the Jewish half, mainly came from Czernowitz, an Ukrainian town under Austro-Hungarian rule, next door to Bessarabia. Also to fit into the mix are Pomeranians, Rumanians, Poles, Galicianers, and non-Jewish Danes.
He grew up in a town mainly populated by immigrants from North Africa and Iran, with a fair amount of Yemenites, Kurds and Iraqis and Indians, next door to both an old Jewish Rumanian town, a kibbutz of English and Yiddish speakers, and a Bedouin village. His grandparents lived on a farming community mainly consisting of Moroccans. His sister's babysitter was Persian and she spoke Farsi (long since forgotten) just as soon as she spoke in English and Hebrew. His early childhood coincided with the break-up of the Soviet Union and massive immigration from the USSR. He later moved closer to the Sea of Galilee, an area dotted with churches as well as mosques and synagogues. Not too far are several Jewish settlements, a Bedouin village and an Arab town of Muslims, Christians and Druze. In his area council there is also a Circassian village. The Circassians are from the Caucasus and were resettled here by the Ottomans. In his childhood he grew up with people listening to French and Spanish music, as well as American, British and ethnic things like Yemenite, Greek, Turkish, Persian and Arab music. That, as well as Israeli folksongs. The first song he recalls hearing was Old Maid in the Garrett, being played on the radio. Especially vivid is a childhood visit to the Armenian Quarter in Jerusalem. His parents were friends with a lot of people serving in the UN peacekeeping forces, espcially Austrians and Polynesians.
In the army he served with Caucasians, Georgians and Ethiopians.
Not to blow his own trumpet, but he has met and associated with people from nearly every corner in the world.   
There, a potted culturo-ethnical biography.


So, where was the nearest country, culturally, for a German Jew of Polish extraction, in the 1930s? Intersting question, isn't that?

Out of pure curiosity, why the library in Havanah?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

Wow Volgadon-fascinating background! It wasn't until just a few years ago as I got into world music more that I started putting the connections between places and people better. It was through the music that I understood the history better actually. Suddenly everything became linked, and I had a reference point to understand what Andalusian actually is, or Calabrian, or Armenian. That's purely on a musical basis, culture cannot be defined by what are the artificial borders we use now. It has a much broader geographical range, a point I have tried to get WAV to understand.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM

Support, Volgadon - just in case anyone there might like to have a read; as I've made clear, I much prefer a regulated market to a free one, and would agree with Fidel, etc., on quite a lot, for what it's worth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

Really? Most of Fidel's policies were destructive, both economically AND culturally. Yes, he could get things done, but doesn't mean that he knew what he was doing!

I should also mention that in the local library were several Asterix books, as well as Tove Jansson, and many other writers from around the world. On TV we would get Blinky Bill and Boes,a mong other things. Far from damaging my own culture, it gave me a lot of common ground around Belgians and Ozzies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

And once again I forgot to emntion that most of the shows on TV back then were British.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

..and I almost forgot that I'll be at the Durham Gathering tomorrow, so here's the next Weekly Walkabout, a tad early...

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

A software protocol has now been set up so that each succeeding post to this thread will register as a vote for Chongo Chimp and the APP in November's presidential election.

Post frequently and succinctly! The future of our nation rides on the outcome.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

Not just "our nation", Little Hawk!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

So LH, do this have this thing rigged so non-Canuck votes count? I hope so, vote early and often.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

Absolutely! Anyone can vote in this manner. It's time that the world had its collective voice represented this way, I think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM

One more from me. I'm hoping Chongo can institute a one-world government. Maybe then he can put WAVs ideas into practice.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM

it's surely silly to say that because something has gone on for so long, it must continue. Slave immigration sadly went on legally for a long time.

True - and it would have been better if it had never happened at all. That's precisely the point that I've been trying to get you to acknowledge - that you're opposed, in principle, to the immigration that has already happened.

To recapitulate: you believe that, in order for English culture to flourish, many individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here now.

If someone says "I would rather Mr Jones didn't live next door", it's a safe bet they don't like Mr Jones.

If someone says "I would rather there were fewer hotdog vendors in town", chances are they dislike hotdog vendors.

And if they say "I wish there were fewer people of non-English cultures in this country", it seems to me that they're expressing prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:43 PM

"I've seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA."

I don't deny, and never did, that there have been ethnic conflicts in the USA. But for the most part, those ethnic conflicts have been initiated by small coteries of racists, and within recent years, those who endeavor to start them often find themselves confronted by members of their own ethnic group, who prevent the conflict from developing further.

WAV, you say you have seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA. Will you kindly enumerate when and where you saw these conflicts? And which particular ethnic groups they were between?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:07 PM

Vote APP in November!

You know you want to. Just do it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

"Is Fathom the Bowl Irish...?"

Not as far as I am aware. I should have written this clearer; for me the English have the songs and the Irish have the tunes (although that's a pretty loose interpretation).

"Stigweard - you clearly see yourself as Bittish and I as English"

I certainly bloody don't see myself as British at all. In fact, I would go as far as to say I reject the artifice of 'Britishness' utterly, in the same way I reject the Union Jack as being my flag and I reject those sponging gits in Buck Pal as having any right to rule over me or me any obligation to loyalty to them, or their useless political onanists in Westminster as representing me in any way, shape or form.

During the last ice age, a group of people crossed the land bridge from the continent and decided to settle in the green and pleasant land they found. After the ice melted they realised they lived on a fine set of islands with cool green forests, high mountains and deep blue lakes. There were no borders, countries or accents, and everyone got on just fine. They loved the land, the animals and above all the music they heard around them - the melodys played by the running of the streams and becks, the vast sweeping cadences of the winds caressing the hills, fells and mountains and the rhythm of the rooks wing beating home to the roost as the day draws to a close.

These people, who went on to populate all the many islands of the archipeligo were the ancestors of stigweard, who still delights in the music and stories of these Isles he calls home, whose diverse traditions are the musical heritage his ancestors have handed him.

So nadgers to nationalism and petty prejudices - they're to be thundered against wherever they crop up; all they do is demonstrate the small-mindedness and myopic view of the worst sort of parochialism . People have been coming here for over 14,000 years contributing to our individual and shared cultures - long may they continue to do so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:35 AM

I'm hoping Chongo can institute a one-word government.


Ook!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

He's working on that. Just wait till you hear the APP cheering section at football games.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:02 PM

I just got back from the Folkworks Durham Gathering and, as usual, I have no problem with the quality but am disappointed by the selection - of tutors and tunes. I thought, as I caught the train home, that when something similar is held in Scotland there's no way it would have such an amount of English culture (and I agree with them). Accordingly, if you'll pardon the pun, I agree with Stigweard on monarchism itself, at least.
Don - I think you'll agree that normally I'm quite frank, but the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary; but you agree that, whilst respecting land rights, as above, it's good for Americans to see themselves as Americans - it's Americanisation/globalisation that I'm against, as part of my multicultural world argument.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 04:56 PM

the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary

I think that's for Don to decide.

Word to the wise, David. You're not coming across as principled and aloof - just shifty and evasive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM

WAV, you seem to be incapable of answering a direct question.

I do not agree that "the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary." You made an assertion. Now back it up.

And lest you think otherwise, I most definitely do not agree that "it's good for Americans to see themselves as Americans." Nationalistic claptrap of all flavors is one of the major causes of strife in this world, and the sooner we get rid of it, the better chance the people of this planet will have to survive into the 22nd century and possibly even beyond.

I echo the general sentiments expressed by stigweard just above.

I am a human, and an inhabitant of the Planet Earth. When and if other intelligences are found in the Cosmos, I shall broaden even that categorization. Nationalism, racism, and, for that matter, even speciesism can be carried much too far, with sometimes disastrous results—as we keep seeing!

Constantly saying "I'm proud to be an American" or "I'm proud to be English," or "I'm proud to be (whatever)," implies that you may not have much else to be proud of.

A rather pathetic state of affairs, really. Have your ever read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

Okay - the event that made the news several nights in a row, in Aus., before I repatriated, was the ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s, I think. I was there later that decade when, thankfully, it had calmed down, and, for what it's worth, I got okay with people there, on my visit.
Also, nationalism with conquest IS BAD, but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN, is good for humanity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM

". . . ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s. . . ."

I recall about that time a small neo-Nazi group wanting to hold a parade in a town in the state of Idaho, but this was opposed by other citizens of the town. So where in California was this ethnic conflict? And between which ethnic groups? And what was the nature of the conflict?

I agree that nationalism with conquest is bad. But oftentimes free-floating nationalism carries an implication of "We're better than they are," and this, in turn, can eventually lead to attempted conquest. "We (being better people) deserve their resources more than they do!"

Yes, eco-travel and fair trade are to be encouraged. But why via the United Nations?

The U. N. is not a tourist bureau. And regulating the movements of people, whether individually or in groups, is not the function of the U. N., nor should it be.

The U. N. has fallen short of what it was originally intended to be, largely because of the selfish nationalistic interests of some of its member states. The disputes the U. N. often tries to deal with the most generally occur over matters of human rights, frequently the way some nations treat their own people, especially ethnic minorities who have as much of a historical right to be there than the majority of the country's population.

The U. N. already has plenty on its plate to deal with. It has more important things to do than play tourist agent for eco-travelers.

WAV, learn something about the United Nations.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:12 PM

Don, I get the strong impression that you're looking for more things to disagree with WAV about, just because you've already been disagreeing with him for quite awhile now.

I see a lot of that on Mudcat threads. It becomes like a dog barking at his own echo after awhile.

How about taking a little break? There must be something you two could agree on as well, surely?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

Just a quick note to one and all on this thread.

If you want to read some real thoughts, beautifully written, intelligent, and image laden......thoughts that may make you think but are not laced with the willy-nilly bullshit and racist bigotry of this trash (my sincere opinion and not an attack), I suggest you try out Peter T. who has decided to return his classic "Thought for the Day" threads that were once a daily fixture of the 'Cat.

Unlike this junk they are topical and not posted elsewhere. If you want to read Wavygravy crap go to the Wavygravy crap site but if you are looking for something far better Click Here

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM

I appreciate your sentiments as a peacemaker, Little Hawk, but I believe I've already adequately explained myself (quoting Edmind Burke in the process). By the way, why single out me? You will note that I am not the only one who is opposed to WAV's continued efforts to persuade others to his narrow views. And I have already agreed with a few things he has said (re: eco-tourism and free trade).

Something to contemplate:   I believe it was the poet Dante who, in his Inferno, said that the lowest rung in Hell is reserved for those who, in time of disagreement over a moral issue, maintain an aloof "colorless neutrality."

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:30 PM

By the way, the nature of the "ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s."

CLICKY.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:49 PM

It's not that I'm singling you out particularly, Don, yours was just the latest post devoted to arguing with WAV when I happened to take a look today. Nothing more to it than that.

I am not engaging in colorless neutrality here. I am observing something which I think is rather obsessive-compulsive and which goes on here on Mudcat all the time: people endlessly wrangling with other people over various things which are never going to be resolved, because their resolution would require someone submitting himself finally to the will of another and admitting that he is "wrong", in effect surrendering unconditionally...and most people simply are not willing to do that (for obvious psychological reasons).

Nor are countries...unless forced to by violence.

This is not a war, however, it's a conversation. Nothing is at stake here except some illusory sense of triumph for someone's ego because they just managed to argue someone else into submission (or so they think).

To note this is not to strike a pose of "neutrality" in the argument. It is to observe and comment upon the frailties of the human ego.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:32 PM

Little Hawk, I don't think taking a position on a moral issue is merely "some illusory sense of triumph for someone's ego because they just managed to argue someone else into submission (or so they think)."

My ego is perfectly intact, thank you. Were I in need of an ego-boost, there are far more reliable ways for me to acquire it than what I am attempting here. You see, I have no hope of changing David Franks' mind. I think he's too far gone. But I would urge those who might be persuaded by him to think very carefully.

I'm sure there were people who got tired of Pastor Martin Niemoller's sermons ("First, they came. . . ."), but if more people had needed what he was saying, it might have made a great deal of difference in the history of the modern world.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:36 PM

And, there is considerably more "at stake" here than merely winning an argument.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

Don, I think that your sermons to WAV are not going to make any difference in the history of the modern world.

And neither are his responses to you. And neither are my comments either. We are all just keeping our restless little minds busy here for a few more minutes, because the human mind is like a dog chewing on a bone...it can't resist...and I know it.

Therefore I do not take it terribly seriously, but I am perennially interested anyway in people's minds, hearts, and souls...the working of their inner psychology, because I fine that interesting in its own right. Period. And that's why I comment upon it.

Not because my comment is important. Not because I think it will change anything or anyone. Just because I find the subject interesting. That's good enough.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:09 PM

I admire your ability to remain above it all.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:06 PM

Sorry, Little Hawk. That was a bit snide.

However, when you go into this mode, you do have a tendency to act like a scientist commenting on the behavior of bacteria in a Petri dish.

Rather off-putting in its air of superiority, really.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:04 AM

Well....I don't actually feel superior, Don. I'm just saying in all honesty how I truly see it (these lengthy personal arguments here), that's all. I think we're all just keeping our restless minds busy here, and I say that in all humility. I'm no better than you or WAV or anyone else.

I don't know you well enough to have any reason to feel superior to you. I don't know anyone here well enough to have any reason to feel superior to them. Honestly. I do know that some people here are crueler than me or harder than me or stronger than me in some way (and others not), but there are probably reasons why in every case, reasons that I'll never know.

I think the only people I've ever seriously felt superior to or been tempted to are some I've known for many years face to face...mostly close relatives or perhaps a lover or two. (and that's a case of that old demon "familiarity breeds contempt" in action).

I'm not really superior to them either. I'm just different in some way, and our rough edges have bugged the hell out of each other over the years because life brought us together closely, and we couldn't avoid it.

The only thing that I think actually matters is love. We hunger for it all our lives. We grow bitter over love denied, love withheld, love reached for but not grasped. We cling to what little love we have actualized.

I figure at the end of my life that none of the debates and arguments will matter. They'll fade into nothing. Only what love I was able to give and receive will count for anything in the end.

It troubles me to see endless arguments fester between people, because I feel that someone is getting hurt. That's mainly why I don't like it. It's not that I'm observing it like I was looking at germs in a petrie dish. It's not detachment. It's that I think people are getting hurt, and probably unnecessarily.

In other words, I empathize with anyone who is in pain. I always did. The people I get truly angry with are those who delight in causing another's pain. Mercy is a mighty thing. So is compassion. So is forgiveness. Revenge is a simply dreadful thing.

I'm not officially a Christian, not officially of any religion, but I profoundly believe what Jesus taught about mercy, compassion, and not judging others. I try to live that way as best I can. I fall somewhat short, of course, like most people, but I try. ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:15 AM

Let me try this again......Just a quick note to one and all on this thread.



If you want to read some real thoughts, beautifully written, intelligent, and image laden......thoughts that may make you think but are not laced with the willy-nilly bullshit and racist bigotry of this trash (my sincere opinion and not an attack), I suggest you try out Peter T. who has decided to return his classic "Thought for the Day" threads that were once a daily fixture of the 'Cat.



Unlike this junk they are topical and not posted elsewhere. If you want to read Wavygravy crap go to the Wavygravy crap site but if you are looking for something far better Click Here



Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:31 AM

Thought for the day


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:41 AM

Catspaw49,

About the only people currently posting to this thread who are not arguing with Walkabout are You, me, Carol and Walkabout. Are you inviting these people to go argue with PeterT? Why are you so concerned with breaking up a 370 post argument? Is it a Monty Python thing?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:52 AM

So, uh, what's this thread about? In ten words or less--(I know that it's fewer, but really I just don't care). I want to sleep before my 62 birthday and I'm 60 now, so I don't have time to read it all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM

Its about 365+ posts of complete crappola Peace. If you're looking for good thoughts, try Peter T.'s return of his Thought For The Day threads.

This thread is similar in idea and concept but comparing Peter's writings to WalksaboutVerse's bigoted ramblings and rationalizations is the difference between sipping tea at twilight in a Japanese garden or staring at a dozen turds floating in a punchbowl.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:45 AM

Supposed to be the guy's poetry, loosely rhymed and metered. But its mostly arguing and personal attacks upon him. At one point his posts were apparently being vandalized and his links changed buy another member of some sort of hacker. He may have the thickest skin I have ever seen on this forum. He ought to get some sort of recognition for that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:49 AM

Oh, Peace, did I forget to mention Catspaw's neurotic and frantic complaining?

(Not an attack, just an opinion ;-) )


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:32 AM

I took a tour of the UN when I was in New York, Don - but, as said above, in England we get a lot more news of US affairs. However, I seem to recall something about the UN helping set up eco-tourism, and, as for global fair-trade, which is NOT going to happen freely!, who better than the UN? And I agree that we've agreed on somethings.
To LH - I agree with what you said on love, and another argument of mine is a related idea of "coupleism"...there's too much of this "every man and woman for him- or herself" and "anyone's fair game" now, which led me to include this in my collection...

Poem 88 of 230: FROM 20TH-CENTURY SEXUALITY

From One Lover to Free Lover to Fee Lover,
    For children's sakes, let's fashion back to One Lover:
In public-life there are - guess what - women and men;
    Thus, upbringing's best by a woman and a man -
Not by one or two men, or one or two women,
    And not in a tug-of-war of women and men.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM

Come on WAV, admit to it - you're just trolling

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM

No, Stu - responding, discussing, etc. - sometimes with what I've already published elsewhere, in verse and prose.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:11 AM

Then where do you think this poem will lead - perhaps it will seem homophobic to some people? Could it be that a troll might use a similar approach to posting- think of something that will cause people t argue, then sit back and watch the fun?

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:02 AM

If you truly are discussing, would you expalin in more detail how nationalism with fair trade is good, or works? I honestly haven't the foggiest what you mean by it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

The problem with thinking the UN can enforce the kinds of things that are being suggested is that the UN is only made up of its member nations. If the member nations don't want any particular policy to be agreed upon, they won't agree on it. And worse, the UN is not a democracy. The UN has a few very powerful players who essentially call all the shots while most of the countries don't really have any say. It's not possible for the UN to do anything other than enforce the will of the most powerful nations. And even if it were a democracy, and all of the member nations had the same amount of say, there's no way the member nations would ever agree to the sort of thing that is being proposed in this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM

It looks to me like nationalism with free trade means that all countries in the world would pay their workers a fair and living wage so that nobody would need to (or feel the need to) leave their country of origin and go to another country to live because they don't feel they can have a good standard of living in their own country. Personally, I think it would be excellent if this were the reality, and I think most of the people who are currently having to leave their own countries for economic reasons would agree with this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:20 PM

Correction - nationalism with fair trade.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

There are different kinds and degrees of nationalism, Volgadon, as I, and Don, have noted above - I'm stressing with fair-trade rather than imperialism/conquest; I couldn't imagine modern Scottish nationalists aiming to conquer other lands, could you?
To Stu - I'm NOT against same sex partnerships but I am against them being allowed to bring up a child: the latter being a very new New Labour attitude here. In 1950s England, I may have been radical in some aspects, but no-where near as much as I am now; many would have agreed with me on many things; and society, overall, was better then.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

Yes, but how does it work with fair trade?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

Yes, Carol, I thought that was a temporary mistake when I read it - the Tory, e.g., idea that allowing a free market will result in everyone prospering is a load of rich rubbish: without REGULATIONS, there will always be rotten inhumane inequality in the world. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one nation/one vote at least an ideal of the UN (if much abused by the more powerful nations, as you noted). I'm sure I read, or heard a guide say that on my 1997 visit there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM

Walkabout verse,have you thought of teaming up with Tone Deaf Leopard.
It could be an interesting version of cross english pollenation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Have you actually looked at the so-called Free Trade Agreement between Canada, Us and Mexico?

It's a load of horseshit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

I think giving the five strongest nations veto power was one of the major blunders in setting up the U. N. That's been the stumbling-block that has rendered it relatively ineffective all these years.

". . . but I am against them being allowed to bring up a child. . . ."

Not arguing with you, David, this is just for your information and something you might want to take into consideration.

I know a same-sex couple (who, incidentally have been married in a church ceremony, even though this state doesn't recognize same-sex marriages—yet), two prominent attorneys in this area, who have adopted two children from Chinese orphanages. I've watched with some interest and curiosity (I, too, initially had my doubts) as these youngsters grew. They are bright, well-adjusted, and happy, and although they are aware that some people regard their family situation is unusual, this does not seem to matter to them. They call one of their fathers "Daddy" and the other "Papa." As far as feminine contact is concerned, they have a couple of aunts who spend considerable time with them.

I submit that these two youngsters are now having, and will continue to have, a far better life with Steve and Dave as their parents than they would had they grown up in an orphanage, where the Chinese policy of "one child" meant that they would never have been adopted, nor experience any kind of family life.

Apart from their sexual orientation, Steve and Dave are as straight-arrow as any two guys around. Pedophilia is no more of a concern here than it would be with heterosexual parents, if that's what worries you.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I won't be in anybody's hair for the rest of the day. The writers' group I belong to will be arriving within half an hour, and after that, I'm making music with friends.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

The U.N. is, as Carol said, not democratic at all. It's controlled by a few powerful nations through the Security Council. It was set up that way by the winners of the last world war in order to perpetuate their own hold on power. They were all technically allies at the time, but a falling out between Russia and the West was just around the corner.

The USA, the UK, France, China and Russia set up the U.N. in January 1946 to be their tool for continuing world dominance. The victors, in other words, intended to take the spoils. To pretend that this was an attempt to establish genuine international freedom, justice, and equality is laughable.

From Wickipedia:

"The Council seated five permanent members who were originally drawn from the victorious powers after World War II:

The French Republic
The Republic of China
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
The United States of America
Two of the original members, the Republic of China and the Soviet Union, were later replaced by recognized successor states, even though Article 23 of the Charter of the United Nations has not been accordingly amended:

The People's Republic of China
The Russian Federation "


What does it all amount to? Power politics and sheer pragmatism. The U.N. is a compliant tool of a few major powers. The situation has been made more complex since 1946, however, by the fact that those powers do not necessarily see eye to eye on a number of international issues.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:54 PM

Technically each country may have one vote, but only the five permanent members of the security council have the power to veto. Which in essence means they are the only ones who really have a vote.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

Correct. The others are there for window dressing.


Japan and Germany are certainly nations who ought to have a major voice in world affairs via the United Nations...but they (along with Italy) had just been defeated in WWII, so naturally they got basically no voice at all at the time. There is no rational reason why they should not both now be members of a world Security Council if there is to be one at all.

We are living in an old world order that was cobbled together over 60 years ago out of the wreckage of a world war. It does not properly serve present realities.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM

"Have you actually looked at the so-called Free Trade Agreement between Canada, Us and Mexico?"

The FTA with Australia is here called "The F*** the Aussies" arrangement...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:00 AM

One positive, then, is that people here, from those powerful/veto nations, are saying that the UN should be a lot more democratic and, thereby, stronger...the ocean is made of many drops...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:41 AM

The UN is a forum. Its a place where nations can meet and discuss their challenges and their differences. The members of the security council have vetoes to prevent a great power shooting war. So far, in that regard at least, the system has worked.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

I don't know. We have seen from recent history that the US, at least, isn't too concerned with whether or not the UN approves when it decides it wants to commit acts of aggression against other countries. I don't think UN disapproval would prevent the US from lobbing a few nukes at Iran.

I'm definitely on the side of making the UN more democratic. Or for the rest of the world to form their own, democratic, UN equivalent.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

I'm definitely on the side of making the UN more democratic. Or for the rest of the world to form their own, democratic, UN equivalent.

Sounds good to me but there are a number of countries that would, by there very nature, be disinclined to participate in a democratic UN.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM

Yeah, that's true. The current Security Council members, for instance (most likely). But they can be made irrelevant.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

Them obviously, but I was also thinking about countries that lack any sort of democratic tradition within their own borders.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

I don't know.. even if the leaders of such countries don't want democracy for their own citizens, I'd be willing to bet they'd like to have some of it for themselves in relation to the other nations of the world. Right now, they're at a distinct disadvantage.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

Hard to say. Some dictator types might go for something like that, others probably wouldn't.

For a system like WAV advocates to really work all countries would have to buy in. If just one country creates ethnic or economic refugees then the rest would have to deal with them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

I agree. I don't believe it would be possible to get enough countries to agree with such an arrangement for any of them to be able to make it happen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM

It makes no difference, KB, whether or not a smaller country has democracy within its own borders...it would still want an equal voice and an equal vote alongside other countries in an organization like the U.N. if it could get them.

No one wants his OWN freedom and voice to be restricted, regardless of how he treats his underlings/citizenry/etc. ;-) Leaders just like others' freedoms to be restricted if it gets in the way of something they want done (or not done).

In fact, I would argue that those MOST likely to restrict their own citizens' freedom are those MOST likely to intensely desire total freedom of action for themselves and their government. It is the very definition of a dictator to be like that.

****

The USA, for instance, wants total freedom to attack anyone in the world that it decides to, any time it decides to, and assumes that it has the absolute right to, regardless of U.N. approval or not...but it accords no one else such rights, except Israel.

Interesting. One has to wonder why? Is it sheer blind hubris or is it a carefully ordered plan of action? Or is it both?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

It makes no difference, KB, whether or not a smaller country has democracy within its own borders...it would still want an equal voice and an equal vote alongside other countries in an organization like the U.N. if it could get them.

I don't think it's that simple. Some of your basic dictator types don't want to have to do anything in any way differently than what they want. Participating in as a true partner in a democratic UN would not be easy for some folks of that stripe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

Both.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:57 PM

No, being a true partner means that you use your vote the way it is meant to be used. Dictators would still want a vote, to make sure nobody can push them around.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

Dictators love getting a chance to sound off and vote in any forum like the U.N. They enjoy it. They just don't feel inclined to be bound by the results of such a vote if it doesn't go their way... ;-)

Like Bush when he failed to get the U.N. Security Council's approval to invade Iraq in 2003.

I say Bush because Bush is a temporary semi-Constitutional dictator. (unless he declares martial law and stops the next election from happening...in that case he would become a fullblown all-out dictator)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM

They just don't feel inclined to be bound by the results of such a vote if it doesn't go their way... ;-)

Exactly, which is one reason it wouldn't work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

I'm not saying it would work. ;-) I'm saying they would enjoy participating in the excercise.

Bodies like the U.N. can only work if they have the collective authority (and the military muscle) to enforce their decisions...and if their decisions are wise ones in a general sense.

The victors at the end of WWII created the U.N. to represent their own selfish interests, NOT to free the world. They set up the Security Council with that idea in mind. Then they had a falling out amongst themselves, and that led to the Cold War.

It has all been an exercise in grandiose self-interest on the part of a few powerful nations, and at the expense of the rest.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

OK, now that we have cleared that up.

WAV, what makes you think the UN would be able to enforce the provisions you have outlined in your ideas about how the world ought to be?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

For the record, WAV, some of your ideas sound just fine to me, some others fail to enthuse me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:55 AM

Well, as said, KB, the UN would have to become stronger/more democratic, such that individual nations did not over-ride it's decisions. And further to "Like Bush when he failed to get the U.N. Security Council's approval to invade Iraq in 2003."..(LH)...when that chap (perhaps Iraq's Minister for Defence?) nicknamed "Comic Ali" kept answering "no" regarding weapons that could reach other nations, he WAS saying the truth (whilst joking about other things, such as his side's chances). And that was given by the US and UK as a major reason for invasion. (Does anyone know what became of him, by the way?). And still further...

Poem 41 of 230: EVEN AFTER LINCOLN, STEINBECK, AND KING

Written at a public toilet by the
    Statue of Liberty:
"What of Equality, Fraternity;
    And Democracy!?"

The U.S.A. has aided dictators -
    Right-Wing leaders, of course;
So some's bestowal of democracy
    Is hypocrisy.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:49 AM

Ali Hassan al-Majid ("Chemical Ali"), ex-Baath leader in northern Iraq, was sentenced to death for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity

stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:01 AM

Comical Ali was the Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf - see Here for more.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:25 AM

That information minister was great.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Come on, no anser for me? If it is a good idea, shouldn't we know more about it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:43 PM

"Dictators love getting a chance to sound off and vote in any forum like the U.N. They enjoy it. They just don't feel inclined to be bound by the results of such a vote if it doesn't go their way... ;-)"

Fiji refused to attend the latest 'big hats of the South Pacific' boozeup - Fiji had a coup and had promised they would have elections by now, which they haven't...

Point proved.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 04:29 AM

Frankly, I didn't know about the latest, 2006, coup in Fiji, FT - but the reasoning seems to be the same as the earlier ones. Indian Fijians have now outnumbered Melanesian Fijians and, via democracy, achieved postitions of power (voting for their own), which leads to coups, via Melanesians in the military, and the continued ill-feeling/ethnic conflict that I noticed during my visit in the 90s.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

IMHO, trying to solve strife in the world by isolating each individual ethnic group into its own restricted compound (ghetto) is neither possible nor desirable.

As it is, people are just going to have to bloody-well learn how to get along.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:09 AM

But, if ideally the law of the land and the culture of the land are closely linked, what would you do, Don?..have different laws for different cultures living within the same land? I know there is for Aboriginal Australians, e.g., which I agree with - but I still maintain that, learning from the past, immigration controls should now be increased the world over.

Further, as it's nearly time to reflect on the Olympics...

Poem 143 of 230: OLYMPICS OR GLOBALISATION?

Largely, I'd say, an Olympic Games is
    One nation's way v. other nations
During fairly-fought sport competitions -
    "Citius, altius, fortius."

So if all states become multicultural
    Or humans become culturally one -
Through settlement and globalisation -
    Holding Olympics would then be null.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:25 AM

"but I still maintain that, learning from the past, immigration controls should now be increased the world over"

What examples from the past would you use to illustrate this point? Please be specific or your argument is invalid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

Without being flippant, Stigweard, please see above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:43 PM

"So if all states become multicultural
    Or humans become culturally one -
Through settlement and globalisation -
    Holding Olympics would then be null."

I dunno, the ancient Greeks got along alright. The olympics are about sports, not about nationalism and are meant to celebrate the fact that athletics know no nationality.

What about an answer to my nationalism with fair trade queston?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

". . . if ideally" [??] "the law of the land and the culture of the land are closely linked. . . ."

The only places in the world where this is the case is in autocratic theocracies such as Afghanistan under the Taliban.

"Ideally?"

Absolutely not! You may as well have a nation of robots.* A society dominated by conformity, restriction, prohibition, and oppression.

Don Firth

*Robot    Etymology: Czech, from robota, compulsory labor; slave.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

No, I amend that. Another example of this kind of society is the Soviet Union, in which authors could be censured and persecuted for writing something the authorities didn't approve of (Boris Pasternak, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn) or composers could be reprimanded and denied performance for writing "the wrong kind of music" (the Zhdanov decree in 1948, condemning Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Khachaturian, and other Soviet composers as "formalist" and "antipopular.").

What you are advocating, WAV, gets pretty close to this: wanting to discourage or prevent people from singing "the wrong kind of songs."

If you want to go a little further into history for examples, there was a time when one could be burned at the stake, not for what one did outwardly, but for not having the "correct" beliefs.

No. That's not the way the world should go; not the way any country should go. That's a big step backwards on the road to civilization.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

Does this cultural isolation apply to foods as well? No pasta outside of China, for instance? I am confused...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM

Add to that list Mikhail Bulgakov, who could hardly get any of his things published or produced, even his play about Stalin's early years, which Joe himself admitted was exactly how things were, but the people needed a myth. Another fine example is the poet Osip Mandelstam, who lost his life because of a verse poking fun at Stalin.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM

Those USSR examples are more to do with (lack of) freedom of speech/political matters, rather than questioning/supporting the multicultural state, Don and Volgadon. In muslim nations, BOTH the law of the land and the Koran say a man can take up to four wives...should it be that way for muslims in the USA and England? As on my myspace header, I like the idea of "a multicultural WORLD".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

Meaning tidy little departments of seperate culture which don't mix. Oh, you can open and admire each, as long as you put them back just as soon as you are done, don't stay too long and NEVER mix them.

Are you not going to answer me?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

"Those USSR examples are more to do with (lack of) freedom of speech/political matters, rather than questioning/supporting the multicultural state, Don and Volgadon. In muslim nations, BOTH the law of the land and the Koran say a man can take up to four wives...should it be that way for muslims in the USA and England?"

####

WAV, you have the cart before the horse.

The lack of freedom in the USSR and other totalitarian states comes as a result of the state not allowing the populace to question or criticize it. Anything that doesn't conform to the arbitrary ideas of the state's dictatorial leaders, including their concepts of cultural imperatives, they suppress. And it is this that is the cause of lack of freedom (freedom of speech, freedom of dissent, etc.), not the other way around.

As to the matter of polygamy, the Koran says the following:
Marry such women as seem good to you, two, or three, or four. But if you fear that you will not do justice, then marry only one (4:3).
And a commentary by a Muslim scholar goes on to say:
Thus the Koran appears to clearly sanction polygamy, up to four wives. However, it also states that the man must deal justly, both materially and emotionally, with all four. A separate Koranic verse states this is humanly impossible: "And you cannot do justice between wives, even though you wish it." (4:129)
Tunisia recently banned polygamy on these grounds. Turkey, under Kemal Ataturk, banned polygamy decades ago. So the "four wives" cultural imperative is not an imperative at all.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

And, in certain cases, you can have more, like Muhammad or Muslim rulers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

"WAV, you have the cart before the horse."

Not again?!!! Good lord, this seems to be happening all the time in our society. People are constantly putting the cart before the horse. I put it down to the overuse of automobiles, the underuse of horses (and carts) these days, and the fact that the horse and cart does not normally come with a simple illutrated instruction manual that even a total idiot can understand.

step 1: place horse directly in front of cart
step 2: fasten harness to horse
step 3: mount cart, facing forward
step 4: grasp reins firmly in left hand and take whip in right hand
step 5: snap whip and yell "Hiyo, Sugarfoot!" (substitute your horse's name here in place of "Sugarfoot")
step 6: hang on! You have now successfully launched your horse and cart. Good luck.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:28 AM

(As suggested in poem #146, e.g., I don't like horses being used in such ways, LH, and, thus, am pleased that the horses-and-carts tradition in England has largely died out - love seeing heavy-horses run wild in a field, mind.)

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 36 of 230: WALKABOUT MEXICO

In late December,
    1996,
I can remember
    Being in a fix -
For time and pesos -
    And, thus, unable
To see Mexico's
    Sights commendable.

So, in Tijuana,
    I enjoyed the show
At a miniature
    Rep. of Mexico.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:07 AM

I don't like horses being used in such ways, LH, and, thus, am pleased that the horses-and-carts tradition in England has largely died out

And with it goes so much of the traditional & folkloric life, the ecology of the countryside, and the continuance of culture & craftsmanship, which defined the whole nature of the England we know & love today. "During a single 10-year period (1984-1993), more than one-third of all hedgerows in the United Kingdom were lost -- a whopping 121,875 miles of destruction..." And of course now they've banned hunting the rest of it will no doubt go down the pan too...

Oh - that Poor Old Horse Song (Owld Grye) is up on the new Venereum Arvum myspace page - see Here - which was collected at the Appleby Horse Fair. Do stop by and have a listen...

Meanwhile, I'm off the start a new thread about horse songs in the English-speaking tradition...

Saddle your horses; your saddles prepare; we'll away to some cover to seek for a hare!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:58 PM

It used to be "I Ride an Old Paint," but now I ride a 1999 Toyota Corolla.

But that doesn't scan nearly as well.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM

Good to hear you and yours, again, IB. Generally, I do support traditions, of course, but I'm happy tractors have taken over from horse-power; and, as for horse racing, I'm with Cromwell - here's that poem/sonnet...

Poem 146 of 230   HORSES FOR COURSES?

To some, in income-anticipation,
    Horse-balking at gates is a small debase;
To me, it seems a memory/fear case
    Over the coming whip-castigation.
To some, the winning jockey's elation
    Is the highlight of an ended horserace;
To me, the horse's bulged veins and scared face
    Undermine the winners' celebration.
I can't condone a punter's desire
    To gamble rather than earn a living,
    But can acknowledge a jockey's courage;
I can't see and think as a raced sire,
    Nor feel the scrapes hedges are giving,
    But find horses choiceless in their bondage.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

So you only want Eng culture you aprove of?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:44 PM

I was always under the impression that horse racing, steeplechase, etc, was an old English tradition; an inntegral part of English culture.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:37 AM

That's true, Don, although Cromwell stopped suchlike for a while; but, yes Volgadon, although I'm a tradie, I don't support every single tradition in England or other nations of the world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:47 AM

I have it on good authority that Wavygravy once moved to the country but found himself with a neighbor who was an Englishman and plowed with a horse. On the other side was a Pakistani who used a tractor. Wav didn't know whether to shit or wipe........whether to evacuate his bladder or wind his watch. In the end he found himself sitting in a pile of shit, pissing on himself, and wondering what time it was.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:51 AM

Call him a racist if you will, but this thread is proving that Walkabout is a very calm and tolerant man.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 09:14 AM

I think he's having a good time like some of us are as well.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:03 AM

Catspaw - get back to your kittie litter and wash your mouth out with some soap, please.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:12 AM

LOL

Catspaw and the Clumping Kitty Litter!

A novel of profanity!

LOL!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:58 PM

Do YOU use soap Wavydude? Are you sure its English in origin? What a friggin' catsasstrophe for you!!!!! Better check.

Katlaughing has been cleaning up the litter for me for years except when I'm cleaning up litter for her as you know JtS.....But I must argue here! There's certainly nothing novel in profanity(:<))

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 04:41 AM

Re: Sparing Spaw's spawnings
Perhaps the mods have been enjoying the Olympics - they didn't bother "cleaning up"/deleting your droppings/posts this time, Spaw.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:27 AM

WAV - the real filth here is your vile racist opinions; no amount of soap & water can ever wash the blood off those ideas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 08:36 AM

That's false and defamatory, IB - in person and on the web, you have only known me to question THE ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITESELF, and to keep pushing for English culture in England: quite different from criticizing and particular race or culture. I think you once mentioned trying some college/uni formal study - I suggest you try again, and reconsider making such ill-informed remarks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

Oh, come on, Insane Beard. You look forward to him saying more things that outrage and offend you. Just admit it. ;-) You log in every day just hoping he'll give you another opportunity to comment on how wrongheaded and terrible he is. (And you're not alone in that...)

You need him like Bush needs Osama (or the rumour of Osama, at any rate).

As for Catspaw, the poor bastard can't even get off anymore without his daily WAV fix, but he's just too proud to admit it. (hee! hee!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:54 AM

Ah Hawkster, I admit it! Wavy gets his jollies acting indignant over facts and I think the Insane one enjoys pointing out the flaws in the "logic".................and YOU get off coming along and pointing it all out......LOL......We be a sick bunch Man....hahahahaha.............

I made a crack somewhere about this but I want to thank Wavy for the laugh on this one! I was researching his silly usage of "English Flute" (a term almost never used since before 1900) instead of Recorder.................and I found THIS hilarious video. Only Walky would give us the benefit of his recorder technique in a SILENT MOVIE!!! And btw, what's with all the mouth malling?

Seriously Wav, I want to thank you for one of the best laughs I've had lately. Seriously! Thanks!!!!!

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM

That's it in a nutshell, Spaw. ;-D Boy, talk about having too much time on one's hands, eh? Who'd have guessed when we were young, hungry, and roaming the world in search of love and enlightenment that it would come down to this! Wasting our days with idle inanities on an Internet forum. Oh well, I guess it beats workin' for George Bush, anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM

Firstly, Spaw: my inexpensive digital camera does not allow audio recording; and, secondly, as I said in the About me section, folks can, if they wish, give this video a viewing while they listen to my tracks, above it.
And, yes, I do move the recorder/English flute around in my mouth quite a bit - as I at least try for a good timbre, and to match recorder and voice (play like I sing/sing like I play).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM

No need to explain it Wavy! Like I said, thanks for the chuckle!!!

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

You know, Spaw, I fear that we may end up as depraved and generally useless as that jerk, Cheech Wizard before we're done. What an awful fate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

I live for the day when "Da' Hat" shall adorn my melon. I'm gonna' go straight for the Orphan Girl and tell her I be god......but unlike Cheech, I will do a trick for her.....heheheheheheheheehehe................

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM

That's false and defamatory, IB

Everything you say comes down to your twisted obsessions with culture & ethnicity; every warped piece of WAV logic is based on the same irrational sentiments concerning cultural purity. So tell me, how is that not racist?

If can't live & be happy with the cultural & ethnic realities of life in Great Britain in 2008 without scapegoating those same realities for society's ills - then what else are but a racist?

It's you who needs an education, WAV - you need to get yourself back to fucking kindergarten and relearn the basics of human decency; the basics of right and wrong that stand as self-evident truths when dealing with human realities rather than the twisted fantasy you persist in so relentlessly promoting.

False and defamatory? You defame yourself, WAV, not only in believing such bullshit - which is your right & priviledge - but in publishing and promoting it at every available oppotunity. These ideas are evil, and the sooner you realise that the better.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gene Burton
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM

Is it actually possible for a person to defame themself?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM

My goodness, such passion! I begin to think the man may be serious.

Everybody's into cultural purity, aren't they? What I mean is, everyone just naturally promotes their own culture, is in favor of it, instills it into their children, celebrates it, goes on and on about it how wonderful it is, defends it against any perceived threat of any sort whatsoever... This is also true of people who bitch all the time about racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Forgive me those who've heard it all before but, in my defence, I went a tad beyond "kindergarten" (IB) and achieved 4 technical certificates in manufacturing and a BA in humanities.
Let me ask you a question, IB - do you at least accept that someone who questions immigration, and likes their own culture, may OR MAY NOT be a racist?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Let me ask you a question, IB - do you at least accept that someone who questions immigration, and likes their own culture, may OR MAY NOT be a racist?

The real question is one of reality, WAV. Anyone who questions immigration does so without stopping to think of the effect of such witless grunting on actual immigrants, such as my dear friend, Rajinda, who came to live in England when she was eight months old & has lived here for the last forty-five years, her family likewise. Needless to say Rajinda, a Pakistani Moslem, thinks of herself as English; I think of her as English, as does her husband, likewise Pakistani, and her children, who are also English Moslem, born on English soil, living all their 21 years on English soil.

How are these people expected to feel when someone, such as yourself, starts gibbering on about immigration & repatriation?

So, in answer to your question, anything that causes racial offence is racist by default; such as your ideas, hatched in moral & human vacuum without ever once stopping to thing how offensive this thinking is likely to be to other people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

Words in someone's mouth, again, Volgadon. And saying that future immigration can't be questioned due to fear of offending those here due to past immigration is, frankly, ridiculous.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

"So, in answer to your question, anything that causes racial offence is racist by default; such as your ideas, hatched in moral & human vacuum without ever once stopping to thing how offensive this thinking is likely to be to other people."

Yeah - and he doesn't like girls playing sport in case they squash their norks (see other thread).

Another "ism" to the list?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

WAV, your whole philosophy is founded on ethnic & cultural purity and the facile belief that England was a better place before immigration - God knows you've made no secret of that. Opposing future immigration on any grounds whatsoever is (frankly) ridiculous, let alone when you are so open about your passions for Our Own Good Culture as it (supposedly) existed before the immigrations of the last 50 years, exclusive of any of the other cultural aspects & attributes of the Multi-Cultural UK as we know today. So it is not future immigration that bothers you, it is immigration period.

I was born into a multi-ethnic & multi-cultural Northumbria; I grew up with Moslems, Hindus, West Indian Blacks, Chileans, Chinese and Yemenites. No bother, WAV - and no rivers of blood. Ethnic diversity & cultural harmony, and unity, in diversity.

Why oppose immigration, future or otherwise, if you're not a racist? Where is your argument? If you weren't a racist, you'd be getting on with your life; living & letting live; happy with the cultural diversity we can enjoy in many parts of the UK, to a greater or lesser extent. Obviously you're not happy with this state of affairs, ergo, you are a racist.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:08 PM

I'm not going to go back though all this twaddle, but if you oppose immigration on the the grounds that it affects the culture of this country, surely you must oppose emigration - even foreign holidays on the same basis. So all you white-skinned Americans, Canadians, Australians etc - get yourselves back to Europe!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

A non-racist could have lots of reasons for questioning immigration/emigration, such as population density, land rights, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law, caring for young Spanish couples who are being priced-out of the property market by wealthy English and Germans - not content to just visit as respectful tourists, etc.

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM

"Racist? No, of course I'm not a racist! I resent the implication! As far as I'm concerned, those people are perfectly fine!

"It's just that I don't want them living next door to me!"

O-o-o-o-h, yeah!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:12 AM

You posted that 2 hours after my last, Don - but it's as if we'd posted at the same time and you hadn't read it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:26 AM

A non-racist could have lots of reasons for questioning immigration/emigration, such as population density, land rights, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law, caring for young Spanish couples who are being priced-out of the property market by wealthy English and Germans - not content to just visit as respectful tourists, etc.

A truly non-racist would see these things as in the light of the economic realities of 21st century capitalism which really have fuck all to do with immigration. Only a racist would attempt to use them as scapegoats to justify their anti-immigration cause.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:46 AM

I thought that's one of the things we do agree on, IB - a dislike of free-market capitalism? And, if so, why support future economic/capitalist immigration/emigration. This is where the likes of the Socialist Workers Party get confused - they, too, are against capitalism but they end up supporting those who emigrate to get rich...

"Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support."(from here)...
And accepting eco-travl and fair-trade between nations, via the UN - rather than yet more conquest and capitalist immigration/emigration.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM

Yet another smokescreen to obfuscate the real issues here.

For a start, being a free-market capitalist I have no dislike of free-market capitalism; it is an organic necessity of the world, as it is today, and always has been, & any attempts to over control it invariably result the horrors of totalitarianism. Secondly, we're not talking about supporting those who emigrate to get rich, rather those of diverse ethnicities who have immigrated into this country simply to make a living, and those who have been born to those families, into their second, third & forth generations. It is against these people that you direct your Own Good English Culture claptrap, constantly banging on about how much better things were before they came, using the immigrant population as a scapegoat for 50 years of political mismanagement - just as any self-respecting racist does.

This is not a personal attack, WAV, but a serious questioning of your published ideology. Whatever personal feelings that lie behind you so-called conclusions you are entitled to, much as any other flawed human being, but once you publish it, then it becomes something else altogether - it becomes a manifesto, a potential rallying point for those who would seize on such ideas as a justification for the racial hatred you claim not to espouse, but which seeps as a rancid bile between your every word.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

Some recalcitrance and inconsistency here? I'm not sure where on mudcat...but I am sure I've read, and agreed with, critical remarks re. capitalism and the rotten inequality it produces from you, IB.
I've also recall you knocking television one day, and then talking about your enjoyment of, e.g, the Early Music programme (which I too enjoyed) just a few days later..?
And, it's getting rarer, but I have heard the media question immigrants as to the reason, with "to get rich" being a common and accepted reply - as most here have not learnt to question capitalism, of course.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:16 AM

I love & hate television in equal measures; capitalism likewise. Not a matter of recalcitrance or yet even inconsistency, but my personal (and, indeed, unpublished - unless posting here counts as publication) dialogue with respect to most aspects of life. For example, I love singing folk music, but rarely, if ever, do I listen to it by way of recreation; I also love attending Roman Catholic Mass but in no way shape or form do I believe in God. Life, I fear, can never never so simple as to be 100% consistent, WAV - and if it is, chances are there's something missing.

Unlike you, I have no strong opinions nor yet have I reached any conclusions; nor do I believe that I have stumbled upon the best way forward for humanity. I just make observations along the way that are subject to change, as such things do, the more one experiences & the more one learns. One thing remains fundamental however, is the belief that whatever one does, one must do it quietly, & happily, & in the hope that it in no way inhibits others from doing likewise. Any sort of bullshit that gets in the way of this - such as the ill-informed racist propaganda you insist on promoting at every available opportunity - I will, quite naturally, oppose.

So - stick to the facts, WAV; you make any more personal remarks like that and I'll be having a word with the mods.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

Was your tongue in your cheek as you typed that last line, IB?!...things had gone quite light-hearted with some good humour on a couple of these threads, before you came back on and brought up the R-word yet again, possibly hoping that others will follow suit (as often occurs). I won't complain to the moderators if you do it yet again, but will, yet again, try and make clear to you the difference between questioning immigration and being racist.
Now, back to the thread, any opinion on my above "Land Rights" verses?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

you still have the influence of Mcgonagle,.
your last line,has too many beats.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

Discuss it. Oh I'll discuss it. Most people learned not to conquer lands so much since World War II? Where in the hell is your precedent for that one WAV? Honestly. That has no basis in reality. One wonders, other than waxing poetical about this WAV, what do you do to support injustice, human rights, discrimination, hunger, and as someone once wrote-"all the ills of mankind"? Do you belong to any organizations? Do you attend rallies or protests against injustice? Do you just sit back and think how we should have a nice multicultural world, while at the same time waxing poetical about all things English, or do you actually do something? Words are fine, action is better.

I guess your poem on Land Rights does not refer to South Ossetia. Or East Timor. Or Darfur. Or Iraq. Or Western Sahara. Or Tibet. Yes....I guess your poem is spot on when looks at all of those places, and the countless others. Spot on WAV. Way to remember those history lessons.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

I said "MOST peoples learnt", above, IE, as part of a collection that I have gifted to 10s of libraries and made free on the web. And, in so far as I keep participating in the local folk and poetry scene. I do still "do something", and have in the past taken to the streets politically.
And, to CB, I just re-read it aloud and it sounded okay to me...maybe you could do likewise...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

ROTFLMAO..........Gifted to libraries?..........oygawdam.........................LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.............aw geeziz, what a hoot..................***gasp***pant***choke...........I can't catch my breath..............................hahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahaahhahahahaahahhahahaahhaahhahha......................gifted to libraries..........................Doncha' just know how overjoyed they were?......................okay now......breathe in----breathe out..................................................***chuckle*****.....woooo........Man, that was a good one........gifted to libraries..................................


Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:02 PM

And I say "MOST" is not valid when you consider what happened post war. Separation of Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Korea, et al were, if anything, a result of the war.Since 1945 I'm sure you could find countless instances of conquest for every year since then. I don't see how you can say that WAV. For real. Who you gifted your prose to has no bearing on the point, its just more self promotion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Amos
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

It's not so much the number of the beats, but the signal they carry.


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

I did read your post, WAV, including ". . . not content to just visit as respectful tourists . . ." and that's what prompted my post.

You are perfectly willing for people from other cultures, other nations, to come as "respectful tourists" and spend money. But you object to those who are not wealthy enough to spend what little they have on tourism, but who will spend it to emigrate on the chance that they can make a better life for themselves in another country, such as England or the United States. You also seem oblivious to the fact that many people emigrate from their home countries because of political oppression.

No, WAV, I know exactly what you're saying. I think I've been on this planet for a few more trips around the sun than you have, and I've seen it / heard it all before.

I might point out that linking to something you have said on your own website in an attempt to supporting what you say here is both pompous and silly. And almost embarrassingly feeble.

And ". . . and have in the past taken to the streets politically."

For what causes?

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, my wife is a librarian. There are people who walk into the library all the time with books they've self-published or material they have written, and generously contribute their great, immortal works to the library for the enlightenment and edification of the multitudes.

It amounts to great heaps and piles. Do you have any idea of what's done with this stuff?

"Thank you very much," says the librarian. Then, when the person is out of sight, "THUNK!" into the round file.

Otherwise, libraries would have to maintain warehouses full of aspiring writers' and poets' unpublished material. And there is generally a very good reason that it's unpublished.

And posting it on a web site, other than getting you ideas out in front of others, does not really count as "published" in the sense that it doesn't have to pass the scrutiny of an editor.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

WAV, have you ever printed your poems and other writings out in correct manuscript form, put them into a Manila envelop, and sent them to a book or magazine publisher? Have you ever subjected your material to the eyes of an editor?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

Hey, Spaw, you have no idea. The library in Blind River, Ontario has been a proud and grateful recipient of a whole set of WAV's collected works.

Unfortunately, though, most of that stuff got destroyed in that rampage that Shane went on there when he got arrested awhile back after Rapaire had driven him into a frenzy with some insensitive things he said to Shane online. It wasn't really Shane's fault, though. It was the cops who overreacted and brought in a lot of high tech weaponry and escalated the situation beyond reason so that the library got half-wrecked before Shane was hauled out to the paddy wagons screaming obscenities.

I think that almost all of WAV's work on display there got damaged beyond repair. Blind River has taken a real cultural blow over this, and so has Shane. The "liberry" has banned him for life over it! He has been driven to begging the use of his brother Don's girlfriend's computer. It's sad how the innocent are always made to pay for the heavy-handed behaviour of bureaucrats and law enforcement personnel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM

But please say that McGonegal's work was undamaged...

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM

Wow Hawkster.....What a tragedy. I had no idea .............................. I'm sure Wav's work was a prize for Blind River to have and now to have it lost is simply terrible, a major blow (much like Shane himself...or Wavy).

Are there plans for renewing it?   I hate to think of the folks in Blind River without such a valuable resource and cultural guide at their disposal. I'm sure that poor Shane has been so angry he's seeing double..............wait....uh, check that.......Seeing QUADRUPLE. Shane already sees double on most days.

Fortunately, as I understand it, the statue in the town square of Cheech Wizard was saved and the locals have been going there nightly for their usual evening vespers and candlelight worship of his greatness.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM

If several words have already been typed in somewhere on the web, why not do, as many have done, and give a link to it, rather than retyping; hence, Don, I refer you here for some of the places I've been published post-self-publication. (And I haven't checked with every library, but know that 1 or 2 have indeed ditched it - while others still have it either on the shelf or at least in the system.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:26 PM

Okay, WAV, I checked the link you gave and I don't see anywhere where it says you've been published. Other than self-publshed.

I'm talking about publication that has been read and accepted for publication by an editor, and then printed in a book or in magazines.

And, for that matter, for which you have been paid.

So. Where exactly does it say?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

Hi WAV
I remembered this bit of poetry from the early 1970s. I'd welcome your learned critique:

Take a pinch of white man
Wrap him up in black skin
Add a touch of blue blood
And a little bitty-bit of red indian boy..

Curly, black and kinky
Oriental sexy
If you lump it all together
Well, youve got a recipe for a get-along scene
Oh what a beautiful dream
If it could only come true
You know, you know..

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough to take the world and all its got
Keep it stiring for a hundred years or more
Turning out coffee-colored people by the score


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

before you came back on and brought up the R-word yet again, possibly hoping that others will follow suit (as often occurs). I won't complain to the moderators if you do it yet again, but will, yet again, try and make clear to you the difference between questioning immigration and being racist.

I bring up the R-word - racism - because it's such an intrinsic part of your entire self-published philosophy; it's there in your narrow exclusive concerns over English culture, which would be bad enough on their own but when you couple this to your views on immigration and repatriation, then I'm afraid there is no question about it, WAV - you are a racist, and what's more, you've published this fact for all the world to see. If you weren't a racist, you wouldn't publish such potentially inflammatory racist jargon; and if your concerns were truly with the English Folk Culture & Folklore you supposedly love, then you'd spend your time immersed in the study of it rather than relentlessly promoting your bizarre ideas which, alas, only demonstrate how little you know and understand of the subject.

I await your clarification on the difference between questioning immigration and being racist - only, please don't quote from your published rhetoric.

Meanwhile, think on this: The human & cultural history of these British Isles (of which England is a part) is one of tens of thousands of years of invasion, immigration, assimilation and diversification; the resulting cultural flux being a process of ongoing change and redefinition whereby not only might the country redefine itself with every overlapping generation, i.e. every three years, but remain entirely different things to any one of its 60 million citizens, native, immigrant, or otherwise. The experience of the individual citizen defines the overall character, and culture, of the nation.

Further - what percentage of England's 50 million citizens would agree that Morris Dancing, English Concertinas & the Unaccompanied Singing of Traditional Folk Songs in any way represented Their Own Good Culture? Also, in the England of 2008, there are more people Morris Dancing, playing English Concertinas & Singing Unaccompanied Traditional Folk Songs than have ever done so in the last 10,000 years. The same (with respect of their own Folk Cultures, albeit in the non-exclusive and cultural absolutist sense in which you might understand the term) could be said of the 5 million residents of Scotland, the 2 million residents of Northern Ireland, and the 3 million residents of Wales. The outlook is better than ever.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:02 AM

Sorry Don - genuine mistake: my myspace About Me was deleted a while back, and I've re-done it without mention of other publications. They are here, though. And I don't mind answering that everything I've done so far, in folk and poetry, has been as an amateur - just a few mini-free-drinks/entry-type gigs and a free journal or two. It probably is standard procedure, but I have got thankyou letters from the secretary of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the EFDSS, e.g., for the paperbacks I've gifted, and one borrower wrote asking (C) permission for my poems on her birthday and Christmas cards; you at least agree that such matters are subjective, yes? I'm unemployed at the moment, but have earned a living, rather, in manufacturing (e.g., production manager).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:40 AM

And to IB, again!, moreso under New (Scottish) Labour, pro-immigrationsists have tried to equate the questioning of immigration with racism - and you are a rather extreme example of this. WITH SOME QUALIFICATIONS, you could fairly call me an anti-immigrationist but NOT a racist. If you can't fathom that, you really should have another go at formal study - preferably in humanities. I have a degree in humanities, and, in my collection, I have at least tried to support the land rights, etc., of people who are clearly not of my race - I'd be one of the least racist people in the world, and I do question immigration, and won't let the misled likes of you stop me from doing so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:40 AM

Once more, you side step all the points I've made by throwing up yet another smokescreen - drawing us once again to your fucking collection. You call this the best way forward for humanity; I call it a fair indication that you have a long way to go in understanding just what the needs & requirements of humanity are, irrespective of your so-called academic training.

Your love of a Nice Multicultural World and constant banging on about land rights is another smokescreen for your bitter hatred of the realities of a Nice Multicultural UK. In this alone you simply cannot separate your anti-immigration stance from your racism. By promoting such a blinkered & unrealistic view of English folk culture coupled with your anti-immigrationist bigotry you are, in effect, actively promoting racism; by listing English dances & instruments which purposefully exclude those of immigrant & ethnic minorities who are such an important aspect of the English cultural landscape you are, in effect, actively promoting racism. If you can't fathom that out, WAV, it's you who needs to return to formal education - but not university, as I say, rather the kindergarten to get back to the basics of human decency.

I say again:

The human & cultural history of these British Isles (of which England is a part) is one of tens of thousands of years of invasion, immigration, assimilation and diversification; the resulting cultural flux being a process of ongoing change and redefinition whereby not only might the country redefine itself with every overlapping generation, i.e. every three years, but remain entirely different things to any one of its 60 million citizens, native, immigrant, or otherwise. The experience of the individual citizen defines the overall character, and culture, of the nation.

Given that, WAV - what possible non-racist reason can you have to justify your anti-immigrationist stance?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM

I think most are probably tired of our "fencing" IB, so I'll just deny your remarks, and say a simple - see above.
No - one more attempt. If I can accept that some who question immigration may be racist; can you accept that others who question immigration may NOT be racist (the latter is how I see myself)?


Post - Top - Home - <