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Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?

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Susanne (skw) 10 Feb 02 - 05:58 PM
johnross 10 Feb 02 - 07:05 PM
Abby Sale 11 Feb 02 - 12:07 AM
Abby Sale 11 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM
Susanne (skw) 12 Feb 02 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,johnross 12 Feb 02 - 10:16 PM
Bearheart 13 Feb 02 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Nerd 14 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Nerd 14 Feb 02 - 12:47 PM
Bearheart 14 Feb 02 - 05:24 PM
Guessed 14 Feb 02 - 08:15 PM
Phillip 15 Jun 02 - 10:54 AM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 02 - 11:19 AM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 02 - 11:24 AM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 02 - 11:26 AM
johnross 16 Jun 02 - 01:04 AM
GUEST,Ele 24 Sep 04 - 08:42 PM
Amos 24 Sep 04 - 09:30 PM
Nerd 25 Sep 04 - 03:44 AM
GUEST 26 Sep 04 - 07:50 PM
Nerd 27 Sep 04 - 12:48 AM
GUEST,Ele 29 Sep 04 - 06:36 PM
Matthew Edwards 17 Nov 04 - 06:18 PM
andymac 17 Nov 04 - 10:45 PM
Jess A 18 Nov 04 - 04:37 AM
Mary Humphreys 18 Nov 04 - 06:10 AM
Matthew Edwards 18 Nov 04 - 07:52 AM
Wolfgang 19 Nov 04 - 03:26 AM
Jess A 19 Nov 04 - 05:01 AM
Jess A 25 Nov 04 - 06:03 AM
Mary Humphreys 25 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM
Jess A 25 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM
John C. 25 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM
FolkPhile_WI 09 Mar 05 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Bill the Collie 10 Mar 05 - 02:24 AM
Jenny S 24 Sep 12 - 01:59 PM
Reinhard 24 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM
Bill D 24 Sep 12 - 03:58 PM
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Sandra in Sydney 20 Jan 21 - 05:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:58 PM

John, the Mudcat is sprinkled with outside links (only, we call them blickies ...) so PLEASE post your link even if it's easy to find elsewhere! Many thanks for the info, anyway.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: johnross
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:05 PM

Oh, okay. Here's a link to the compete Ewan MacColl Discography.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:07 AM

Hi, John. I've got something like 1/2 of all his records now and track lists for those that I have. There are 439 Child cuts but it will take me a day or so to figure out how many different ballads that means. Could easily be less than 100. My collection leans healily of traditional as opposed to his modern, composed songs so I could likely have nearly all he recorded. Some significant gaps.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM

Funny...I have exactly 100 discrete Child ballads sung by MacColl. For what that information may be worth to anyone. Obviously that means there are quite a few more of them on those same records sung by Peggy Seeger or AL Lloyd. Pretty good guess, John.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:37 PM

Must be a magic number! I have exactly 100 different Child ballads in my collection, and 259 different recordings. When my cry for help on how best to publish this on the Mudcat has been heard I'm hoping to add other recordings mentioned in this thread.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: GUEST,johnross
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:16 PM

I can find about 106 distinct Child ballads on the various MacColl ballad series on my shelf, and a few odd others. I'm still missing a few of The Long Harvests and one of the Riversides, so I'll increase my earlier estimate to about 115 - 120 separate items.

Drift: I suspect that I'm not the only one who has picked up a few duplicates along the way. Anybody interested in some trades? There's an e-mail listserv for collectors of MacColl material that might be a good channel for that. The address is in the discography linked a couple of messages back.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Bearheart
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 12:50 PM

Great to see this thread. I have a number of the original field recordings released by Caedmon, which my father bought as a grad student in the late 50s(?)/early 60's(?). Listening to them as a young teen was what got me started with the ballad tradition. The procedure was to pick a ballad, record a verse or three of a version, or in some cases several versions by different singers, usually an Irish a Scots and an English or Welsh version. Many of the well-known singers were featured (Jeannie Robertson for instance), but also some of the more obscure singers.

It's worth going to one of the better music libraries at a University with a good folklore department, and listening to, or better yet,recording directly from, the old first issues if you can. (Is it infringement of copyright if you are using the material for scholarly purposes?-- I guess one of those other companies holds it now?-- and if you're copying the old recordings is it the same?) Most of them have intact liner notes, and of course the library should have collections of Child.in the stacks so you can go look up more info.

Good hunting!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM

Thanks, Bearheart.

Just to reiterate, the Caedmon LPs are being reissued by Rounder in the Alan Lomax collection. Rounder owns the rights as far as I know. Three have appeared so far, the two Ballad releases and Songs of Seduction. One nice thing is that they provide full versions of some of the songs that were "snippeted" on the original LPs.

There are two prevailing opinions about the practice of releasing such snippets, by the way. Some think it's a good way to encourage comparison between versions (this is obviously why they did it in the first place). Others feel it's essentially a violation of the song and the singer's right to be fairly represented. What you all make of it is up to you!

Obviously, copying the entire albums is an infringement of copyright, just as going to the library and photocopying a whole book is. (In fact, Kinko's was sued over this and consequently is very strict about how much of a book they will include in course packs.) If you are using the recording for scholarly purposes, it is permissable to copy some of the album--I don't have an actual figure or percentage, though. If you are really doing something scholarly with a tape (like publishing a paper or a book in which you cite the album, or using them as examples in a classroom)then few companies would pursue you for copyright violation. If you just say that it's scholarly because you have a serious interest, but you don't actually produce scholarly work, that may be a different question.

Ethically, this is a different question than legally. Particulary with the volumes that have not yet been reissued, I doubt if anyone would blame you for copying the old LPs. It's not like the singers ever got any royalties anyway!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 12:47 PM

More on fair use (from the actual US code):

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1)

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2)

the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3)

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4)

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

What this means, I think, is that findings about fair use are made on a case by case basis, when issues of copyright infringement are raised by a copyright owner. All you can do is use common sense I remember trying to get a hard and fast definition of fair use some years ago and failing. All you can do is imagine whether what you're doing will harm the copyright owners. If you copy these tapes and listen to them many times for pleasure instead of buying a copy, that might be perceived as unfair. But you'd have to get sued for a finding to be made.

Fair use is a pretty fuzzy concept...


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Bearheart
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 05:24 PM

Thanks, Nerd, for clarifying all of this. Since my dad used his copies for teaching (English Lit survey classes, discussing the oral tradition) I mostly was aware of that angle of things (though I can safely say--since he's retired now!-- that he was probably less than proper all the time in regard to the law!). This is all a bit tricky of course when you love the old stuff and just want to learn it to sing it and preserve it. I understand the importance of things like copyright; esp when protecting the rights of musicians who are making a living... what's more difficult for me is the attempt by some to control what belongs to everyone. Sort of like this debate about patenting garden seeds so that farmers can't raise their own seed. But this is a matter of degrees and fine lines, and is probably thread creep anyway...

In any case thanks for the info on legal boundaries...


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Guessed
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:15 PM

Bearheart, take heart. Thread creep WAS much of Child's thesis. N'est Pas?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Phillip
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 10:54 AM

Coming only recently to this excellent community I know that my posting here is a bit after the horse has bolted, but still… And what follows just shows the fun you can have with spreadsheets!

The Riverside ballads set by Lloyd and MacColl does occasionally turn up for sale, but in the guise of the Washington re-issues, usually. The individual discs go for around $30. I last saw a complete set about two years ago. It was certainly an interesting and enterprising project. There were 69 Child ballads – Lloyd did 27, and MacColl 42. Of MacColl's 42 only six were unique to this collection. (I base this on having 90% of his vinyl albums, so I suspect it is correct as of the other 10% only two are likely to have any ballads on them. I may be wrong, of course. Perhaps other MacColl enthusiasts – Abby Sale, John Ross – could correct me.) But those six are certainly worth seeking out: Rob Roy McGregor, The Heir of Linne, The Earl of Aboyne, Hind Horn, The Jolly Beggar, My Son David. Bert Lloyd's 27 were a different kettle of fish! I have only found 5 of them on other albums.

So, with my spreadsheet suddenly whirring with COUNTIFs, I thought I would do a little survey of Who's Who in Recorded Balladry, mainly as it is represented in my collection, but with some speculation (Anyone who can reduce the speculation please let me know.) These are my Top Twelve English and Scottish ballad singers, pop pickers:

1. Ewan MacColl: 106 Child ballads recorded, in 136 variants. 2. Martin Carthy: 42, in 48 variants. (I think he did others with the Watersons, such as The Prickly Bush, so we could be generous and say 43!) 3. Bert Lloyd: 32, in 33 variants (Two versions of The Grey Cock). He may have done more, such as on the Collector EP "England and Her Folksongs".Anyone know?) 4. Jean Redpath: 25, and there may be others on her earliest recordings, such as The Scottish Ballad Book, which I don't have. 5. Shirley Collins: 24, I think, but I'm not sure. This is based on a count of the tracks listed on Rufus' website, www.sarcon.demon.co.uk/engfolk/21 6. Nic Jones: 18, again based on a count at Rufus's. People tend to look at me strangely when I say I have no Nic Jones records. Maybe I should correct that. (Can someone tell me what family of ballads Annachie Gordon belongs to?) 7. June Tabor: 12, plus others on her latest recordings? This includes an excellent Gypsum Davey recorded off the BBC, and I don't think available on disc. 8. Dick Gaughan: 12, and probably no higher as Dick has favoured different kinds of stories of late. 9. Tony Rose: 12, and maybe some on Bandoggs, dunno. 10. Roy Williamson: 10, but hacked about a bit more than is seemly. 11. Cyril Tawney: 10, I think, based on Rufus' discography. 12. Archie Fisher: 9

Number one with a bullet, or should that be a broadsword?, stateside is Peggy Seeger, with 62 Child ballads in 108 variants. Jean Ritchie's two albums might well put her into second place, but I had to sell them long ago!

I have a total of 142 ballads, in umptyplonk variants, and 519 separate recordings. Contra Bronson, Barbara Allen falls into the also-rans in the popularity stakes among Revival singers, with a mere seven recordings. Way out in front, and leading by a long neck (sic), is The Gypsy Laddie with twenty recordings, although seven of those are of the familiar Scottish version.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:19 AM

Anachie Gordon is Child 239, Lord Saltoun and Auchanachie. Gary Gillard has a list of Child Ballads recorded by Carthy and various Watersons at Child and Carthy/Waterson


https://mainlynorfolk.info/watersons/child.html


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:24 AM

I forgot to mention that the Max Hunter Folk Song Collection now has a page listing Child ballads in the collection; most of these can now be heard online. They are recordings from tradition; not so polished as Revival performers in some cases, but the real thing.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:26 AM

Heavens, now I forgot the link. Got up too early this morning...

Child Ballads in the Hunter Collection


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: johnross
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 01:04 AM

Ed McCurdy was another somewhat prolific singer of ballads on records--but his definition of "ballads" was a lot more broad than Child's. But two of his Riverside Lps do contain a lot of Child Ballads: "The Legend of Robin Hood" (RLP-12-801), with 11 of the Robin Hood ballads; and "The Ballad Record" (RLP 12-601) with nine Child Ballads plus some broadside ballads and a handful of purely American songs, like Springfield Mountan and John Henry.

It's possible that some of the songs on his "Lyrica Erotica" and "Dalliance" series might have their origins in the Child Ballad canon, but that's a stretch.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: GUEST,Ele
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:42 PM

What is Judas about?

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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:30 PM

I have just read this entire thread and want to add my thanks to all those whose clarity, scholarship, goodwill and wide-ranging curiosity are included herein. It is an example of the very finest that the Mudcat has to offer!!


A


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:44 AM

In Judas, Christ commands Judas to beg for money and buy the apostles food with it. He goes out collecting, but is led astray by his sister, an unbeliever, who tells him the food can wait, he should go have a nap. When he awakens, the money is missing. It was thirty pieces of silver. On returning to the town he encounters the rich Jew (!) Pilatus, who asks him what price he would sell Jesus out for. He insists on the thirty pieces that were stolen from him. The scene shifts to the Apostles at supper. Jesus knows he is betrayed, "sold for our meat." It is hard to tell if Judas confesses or denies, because part of a line is missing. Peter says he would fight for Jesus, Jesus says that Peter too will forsake him.

It's an odd little ballad, essentially a legend explaining the thirty pieces of silver...


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:50 PM

Is there a version of Judas in modern English available? I´m from Argentina and I´m writing a paper about ballads.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 12:48 AM

GUEST, there is no version of Child 23 that folklorists believe to be a genuine piece of oral tradition. However, John Jacob Niles did claim to have found some. His lyrics are in
this thread.

The version of Judas in the DT (just put "Judas" into the "lyrics and knowledge" search engine at the top of the page) has the original lines interspersed with modern English translations.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: GUEST,Ele
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 06:36 PM

Thanks a million!!! =-)))))


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:18 PM

I've just stumbled on this website which I haven't seen mentioned before The Child Ballads Project which lists recordings of individual ballads. It includes source singers and revival singers without any distinction. There is no discography attached though many of the recordings will be familiar. It doesn't say who has compiled the list of recordings - Sandy Paton is the only name given, along with the address of his Folk Legacy site, but Folkphile and requiem are also credited as contributors. There are almost inevitably some omissions, but on the whole the site seems farly comprehensive. It seems quite a useful source.

It looks like somebody has done a lot of hard work for which they deserve congratulations.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: andymac
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:45 PM

Fascinating thread and full of knowledge, insight and generosity. How is the project coming along? Has anyone included Jo Miller's wonderful recording of the Child Ballads collected from Mary McQueen?
I would also mention The Ballad Tree, recently recorded by Geordie McIntyre and Alison McMorland as another fine example of people still recording Child Ballads and variants thereof.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Jess A
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:37 AM

Thanks for that link Matthew - I'd not seen this before and am fascinated to see the uneven distribution of those that have recorded versions. I'd be intrigued to know who complied the list and whether they are interested in additions as I am aware of a few recordings that aren't listed on there. If anybody out there knows who I could contact about it, please let me know!! (I might try to get in touch with Sandy Paton for starters...)

Jess


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 06:10 AM

I tried emailing Sandy Paton about adding items to the Child Ballads Project page but got no reply. It may be that spam-trapping removed my email. If anyone has any idea how to add items to this page, please let us know.
Mary


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:52 AM

Mary, Sandy Paton pops up here on Mudcat from time to time so a PM might reach him. I wonder how active a part he may have played in this listing project - all the contributions credited to him seem to be from recordings issued by his excellent Folk Legacy label.

I have no idea who (or what?) "Folkphile" or "requiem" are, but it would be very helpful to have a contact to send additions and corrections.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:26 AM

Great link, Matthew, but even at the first glance (up to CHILD #10) several recordings are missing.

Understandably, all English language recordings issued in Germany are missing, but also the Irish sources are far from complete. No mention of Frank Harte, etc.

Like Mary, I could add entries but am still looking for an easy way. They should have an addendum form on that page. But having said that my main reaction is a big praise.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Jess A
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:01 AM

I've had a reply from Sandy Paton with a name and email address for the lady who he thinks complied the list, so I have mailed her with my additions and will post back here if/when I get a response from her. I gave her a link to this thread and also passed on Wolfgang's suggestion of an addendum form on the site. If anybody else wants her details in the meantime, PM me.

Jess


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Jess A
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:03 AM

wahey, I have had a reply from Liz who compiled the list on thechildballads.com.

she says "I'm glad you like our Child Ballad site, and I hope it will be of use to your group. The research was done mostly by me and Claire Huang (FolkPhile). Sandy Paton sent us a list of the CBs from the recordings in his catalogue, and I got some of the rarer ones from Sandy's friend John Mazza. I asked John if he wanted to be credited on the website, but he never responded.
Claire and I are not professionals in any capacity, either as musicians or otherwise, just amateur enthusiasts. So if anyone spots mistakes on the website, please let us know.
Certainly we are interested in additions to the list. I will add your group collectively as a contributor under 'Mudcat' if that's ok."


I have asked if she minds if I put her email address on here but shan't do so until she gives me the ok, until then if you want it then PM me. I've also suggested she might like to join Mudcat herself as it sounds like she'd not come across it, so we'll see what happens...


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM

A big 'thank you' to Jess for doing that research. I am sure that there will be lots more recordings added to the list from Mudcatters all over the world!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Jess A
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

cheers Mary.

well, I've heard back from Liz and she says she's happy for people to mail her directly - she says put 'child ballads' in the subject line and mention you're from Mudcat, and she'll add your contributions to the list. Her mail address is esa7777@cox.net

she also said that some of the things on her list are quite rare vinyl recordings but she has some of them as mp3s so if you want them, ask her nicely :) I'm not sure which ones they are though.

Jess


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: John C.
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM

Isn't it about time that 'The Long Harvest' was re-issued? I received several volumes for my 21st birthday and bought the rest myself - they were a revelation! The recordings of Ewan singing 'Sir Patrick Spens', 'Clerk Colven' or 'The Swan Swims sae Bonny' or Peggy singing 'the House Carpenter' or 'Pretty Polly' were both fascinating and inspiring - these are now an indissoluble part of my mental furniture - I can't imagine my life without them. People still say unkind things about Ewan but I can honestly say that he had a greater effect on me than any other artist has done before or since.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: FolkPhile_WI
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:39 AM

Interesting to read this thread and to see the name of yours truly pop up on it. I lost a few cookies through the years so have rejoined Mudcat. I'm happy to discuss the Child ballads either through a message thread or via PMs - feel free either way. My interests in folk music run the gamut from ultra traditional to contemporary singer-songwriters, but must confess that ballads are a main passion.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 02:24 AM

Thanks for this thread. Unfortunately don't have the time to read and savour it just now but will get to it soon


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Jenny S
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 01:59 PM

thechildballads.com seems to have been hijacked (in chinese?!) - anyone know if the content is available elsewhere?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Reinhard
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM

Try Halewijn Vandijk's Child Ballad Database
2021: https://www.childballadrecordings.com/


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 03:58 PM

And see the linked threads at the top for many long discussions of ballads in general and specific.

Jenny.. do you need something about specific ballads, or just to browse the lists?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:51 AM

Be sure to look at https://www.childballadrecordings.com/ - think that may be the new URL for the page Reinhard recommended.

Also Richie's Child Ballads research at http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-305-child-ballads.aspx


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: Anyone recorded the lot?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 05:35 AM

Australian Raymond Crooke has recorded all 305 Child Ballads. website - info about each ballad    Youtube - playlist


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