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BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'

GUEST,lox 15 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM
Teribus 15 Jul 08 - 01:05 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 08 - 03:52 AM
Teribus 14 Jul 08 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,lox 13 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM
akenaton 13 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM
akenaton 13 Jul 08 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jul 08 - 09:16 PM
Emma B 12 Jul 08 - 09:00 PM
Teribus 12 Jul 08 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jul 08 - 07:56 PM
akenaton 12 Jul 08 - 05:55 PM
akenaton 12 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM
Emma B 12 Jul 08 - 01:02 PM
alanabit 12 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM
Teribus 12 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM
Emma B 12 Jul 08 - 05:30 AM
akenaton 12 Jul 08 - 04:03 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 11 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM
alanabit 11 Jul 08 - 06:41 PM
Teribus 11 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jul 08 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,lox 02 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Sawzaw 02 Jul 08 - 05:22 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jul 08 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,lox 02 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM
Charley Noble 01 Jul 08 - 10:09 PM
GUEST,Hans 01 Jul 08 - 07:39 PM
akenaton 01 Jul 08 - 06:04 PM
Teribus 01 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM
Charley Noble 01 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM
Lox 01 Jul 08 - 03:15 PM
pdq 01 Jul 08 - 10:14 AM
Charley Noble 01 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM
George Papavgeris 01 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM
pdq 01 Jul 08 - 09:53 AM
George Papavgeris 01 Jul 08 - 09:45 AM
Teribus 01 Jul 08 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,lox 30 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM
Donuel 30 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM
Donuel 30 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM
Lox 30 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Hans 30 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM
Charley Noble 30 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM
Lox 30 Jun 08 - 06:53 AM
alanabit 30 Jun 08 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Hans 30 Jun 08 - 03:51 AM
Charley Noble 29 Jun 08 - 09:38 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM

politics ... politics ...

That's what it comes down to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 01:05 AM

"Do the States of today not "prey upon one another," only on a thousand times bigger and more vicious scale?" - asks Akenaton

The answer is of course they do not, there is greater interdependence between states these days than at any other time in history, war and conflict goes against that.

"Nothing I have read suggests huge loss of life in "primitive tribal disputes" on the scale of modern warfare, with new super weapons being developed to facilitate the slaughter." - states Akenaton

Good point depending upon what populations actually were. I take it from what you have written there Akenaton that you have not read about the rampage that lasted for four years and the tens of thousands killed by Shaka Zulu in his grief after losing his favourite wife?

"Observations of "primitive dispute" have shown that,as in the animal kingdom, posturing and ritual plays a huge part." - States Akenaton.

You have not read about the invention of the Asegi then Akenaton or the development of tactics occasioned by that invention.

"I have also read that these tribes usually have a very good form of "local govt"....committee's of tribal elders etc, which can stop territorial disputes from getting out of hand." - Akenaton

Very true, did you also read how these councils decided how many members of the tribe had to be sold into slavery.

"It is only when we start re-organising tribalism in our own distorted image that things start to go wrong." - Akenaton

Well I took a look at that Akenaton and found that in the UK things became a damn sight better when we re-organised tribalism. Same goes for Europe. How many wars have there been in Africa between "nation" states? Very, very few Akenaton, Ethiopia and Eritrea being the most notable. Hundreds of examples of inter-tribal conflicts within countries though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:52 AM

Do the States of today not "prey upon one another," only on a thousand times bigger and more vicious scale?

Nothing I have read suggests huge loss of life in "primitive tribal disputes" on the scale of modern warfare, with new super weapons being developed to facilitate the slaughter.

Observations of "primitive dispute" have shown that,as in the animal kingdom, posturing and ritual plays a huge part.
I have also read that these tribes usually have a very good form of "local govt"....committee's of tribal elders etc, which can stop territorial disputes from getting out of hand.

It is only when we start re-organising tribalism in our own distorted image that things start to go wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 12:55 AM

"The tribes co-existed well enough for thousands of years" - Akenaton

Now that Akenaton displays an amazing lack of knowledge on the history of African tribes. I say amazing because you come from, or live in Scotland, in the highlands.

Trouble with tribal cultures Akenaton, particularly where hunter-gatherers and herders are involved, is that they prey upon one another - "co-existed well enough" - ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM

By the way, I happen to trust the news I have heard and I trust the BBC.

I have no doubt that Mugabe is every inch the monster that he is made out to be and I thin Russia and China should have agreed to effective measures to put pressure on Mugabes government to start listening.

I think Russia and China are capitalizing on the situation to strengthen their diplomatic position globally.

Zimbabwe do need help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

Sorry missed out the link toSimon Jenkin's article


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 05:35 PM

Another excellent piece from       in today's Times.

"Sanctions are a war waged by cowards"

For some time now I have been talking about "sanctions" as a form of terrorism practiced by the powerful nations against the weak.
Simon Jenkins, details the inefficacy, stupidity and cruelty in the course of action promoted by Teribus and others.

No matter how "smart sanctions" are targeted they can easily be circumvented and the victims are always the sick the poor, the very young and the elderly

As I said earlier leave the Zimbabwaen problem to the Zimbabwaens.
Stop interfering and stop the sanctions.

It is simplistic to blame the strife on "Tribalism"..The tribes co-existed well enough for thousands of years....before the political ingredient was added to the mix.
This is true for almost every country in Africa, "tribalism" distorted and abused by the pwer brokers....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

But then I suppose that was just another hard sell too ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

The superpowers have evolved since world war one from glamorous heroes to sleazy salesmen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:16 PM

The main reason the UK and USA need to hear Mbeki speak out against Mugabe is that we need to be reassured that he isn't planning similar expulsions and "restructuring".

He of course is fully aware of this fear and is no doubt using it to his advantage.

And for those who are interested MATHABA


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:00 PM

I am no supporter of Mugabe but this is the sort of disinformation which really doesn't help.

'Opponents of the UN resolution argued that sanctions would undermine the mediation efforts of the AU and the SADC and endanger the negotiation process between the Zimbabwean government and the opposition.

With the help of the AU and SADC, the Zimbawean government and opposition officials met for the first time in South Africa on Thursday* to try to find a way out of their country's political crisis'

The above is how the situation is reported from a Chinese viewpoint which argues that sanctions would only undercut South Africa's mediation efforts.

*The meeting in the South African capital, Tshwane (formerly Pretoria), was aimed at pursuing a power-sharing agreement.


Time reports that -

'Although the international community has vociferously denounced Mugabe's regime as illegitimate — and this week the G-8 agreed on a sanctions package to present to the UN Security Council (although Russia appeared later to backpedal) — only Zimbabwe's neighbours are in a position to apply direct pressure on the regime.

And while support for Mugabe is waning within the Southern African Development Community and the African Union, the latter body still insists that the solution to the crisis is a government of national unity, rather than a transitional government to prepare for fresh elections. And that leaves Mugabe plenty of wiggle room.
Sanctions, meanwhile, are more likely to hurt ordinary Zimbabweans than the regime, analysts say, and make them even more dependent on the state.
The leadership would, however, feel the pain if their access to foreign exchange was cut.'

Unlike some posters, I don't profess to know what the solution to this humanitrian crisis is but maybe, despite their failure so far, the African Union should be positively encouraged to persue their negotiations with the full support of the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 08:22 PM

Ah Akenaton you don't admire Russian or Chinese Communism. Well that at least is a step in the right direction. A question, have you ever thought about criticising their contribution to the untold misery that they have inflicted on this world in their attempts to fool the world into believing that their political philosophy had any merit? Because it didn't did it? They never once succeeded in making, or convincing, all those stalwart workers into producing enough to feed themselves. They have never been renown for aiding the poor from the security of their workers paradise.

No Akenaton my little heilan' anarchist you wouldn't do any of that. You basically do not have one single constructive, or positive bone in your entire being. A review of your postings below the line here on Mudcat and you will find an endless catalogue of knock, knock, knock, moan, moan, moan. Just as well that you have lived and enjoyed all the benefits of a political system that has been sustained by capitalism, otherwise old son you'd have starved years ago.

EmmaB thanks for explaining your post. I would hate to think that any sane and rational person would ever try to depict Mugabe as the legitimate ruler of Zimbabwe. As for some South African rag, well all I can say is good luck to them, and advise them to take a good look across the border at Zimbabwe because that is going to be you in about ten years time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:56 PM

"The whole affair is being hyped to divert attentioin from what is about to happen in UK/US."

My first thought is one of indignation. I've seen the footage, heard the interviews and therefore know to my own satisfaction that the situation in Zimbabwe does not need to be hyped ... right? ...

Then the "fair" side of my patronizing overview kicks in and points out that there are no British and American journalists allowed in zimbabwe ... apparently ...

And that I have been trusting the word of Tsvangirai - the Galant hero - implicitly, while I have accepted that Mugabe and the Zimbabwean press are one sided and deliberately misinformative.

I wonder to myself briefly if these are grounds for a conspiracy theory that we are in fact the ones on the receiving end of the propaganda and Mugabe really is a hero resisting western interference.

I doubt it, but I indulge my muse ...

I allow myself to consider the perceived idea that China and Russia are siding with Mugabe (the bad guy) and taking money from his people that they can't afford in exchange for weapons to kill them, and Russia and China by proxy are therefore also the bad guys.

I reflect that the KGB are (reportedly) back in power and that russia is (apparently) more powerful than ever, while China has been murdering more Tibetans.

I consider images which seem to portray a new streamlined, market wise, form of communism emerging.

I speculate about the possibility that China and Russia might be sending a message ... "sorry, Zimbabwe isn't yours any more" ...

I remind myself of the recent Burmese purge ... and how it was worsened by a natural disaster ... and how the junta there wouldn't even allow aid agencies to interfere if it meant saving the dying.

And how "even" China pleaded with the Junta there to allow aid in.

And China worked unstintingly to save her own earthquake victims - and welcomed Japanese help - resulting in unprecedented warm relations with Japan, later opening flights to and from Taiwan -Americas other "friend" in south east Asia.

I consider that America and Britain aren't as popular or trusted as they used to be as a result of the shenanigans over Iraq and note the timing of China and Russias apparent displays of strength and independance on the one hand and apparent amiable congeniality on the other.

I am told that there are UN observers at the Zimbabwe elections who can hopefully be trusted to return accurate findings, and there are apparently millions of refugees escaping into south Africa ... another country who are being recast as the bad guys again after their miracle of democracy failed to deliver the instant rewards the world anticipated, nor the unconditional alliance that we had hoped for.

I see Britain desperately hanging on to europe by its finger tips and America saying " ... aw shucks ... "

And Britain putting on a brave face despite wanting to cry with shame.

And Bush softening his Image, partially obscured by the hullabaloo surrounding the competition for power between a Woman and a Black man.

I turn to the TV on my wall and descend illiterately into an intoxicating intricate orwellian abstract ......


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:55 PM

And BTW Teribus you are a very mixed up person regarding political philosophies.

You call me a "Heilan Anarchist" and in the next sentence, accuse me of being an admirer of Chinese or Russian Communism.

A bit of reading required Teribus?

Now about the meltdown...Perhaps a bit of Russian style Communism could save us; by using taxpayers hard earned money to prop up the pirates of the banking system.
You must be the only erso left who thinks all is well with the Capitalist world.

The coming recession will be unlike anything we have seen before.
We have no where left to run.
We can't "work our way out of this one" as we no longer make anything.
The credits are all being called in....we're fucked.

Go and order your Chairman Mao hat...Im sure you'll wear it with pride


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

Sorry about the drift, but does anyone else find Teribus's use of the word "little" to describe ones stature or ones opinion, pathetic.

I've noticed he uses it often to try to diminish any argument he doesn't agree with.

I don't mind in the least being called a "Heilan Anarchist"...there is a bit of truth in that, but one needs to be of decent build to humph 50kilo rolls of lead up onto a 40ft roof; as I have been doing all day.

Sorry T, you're not often right, but you're wrong again.
Get your "facts" right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 01:02 PM

'but I am sure that you EmmaB know much better.'

I merely quoted a pan African perspective on the situation without personal comment or anaysis Teribus.

However, I feel that they also have a valid view of the situation on their own continent and that the 'West's' actions can frequently be perceived to be tainted by its colonial past and the threat of another 'regime change' policy used by the Zimbawe leadership to their own advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

Teribus, I can't help it if thugs and thieves choose to wear the clothes of fake socialists. Neither can any other decent socialist. The term "decent socialist" will inevitably seem like an oxymoron to you. It puzzles me, because you are in no more danger from me than you are from your milkman. Most of us make judgements on what people do rather than what they say.
I have a good friend, who says things, which do not reflect the way he behaves in the slightest. He is one of the kindest men I know. It seems to be an article of faith with you that any socialist, communist etc will become a rapacious tyrant. I am not stupid enough to believe that anything could change your mind.
I am not a Christian. I believe that Christian churches (indeed those of most religions) have carried out horrible crimes in their names. Believe me, that will never cause me to label Christians as thieves and murderers. You like to identify bad systems with socialism. You seem happy in this belief, and nothing anyone says will ever change your mind. Who am I to challenge a belief, which you are happy with?
I despise the tyrant Mugabe as much as you do. I abhor the hypocrisy of China and the corruption of Russia. A tyrannous system is abhorrent whatever clothes it wears. And by the way, I agree with you that the "socialist credentials" of these tyrants is "all complete and utter cant and hypocrisy".


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

But according to all reports EmmaB the sanctions weren't against Zimbabwe were they? The sanctions were targeted against and would only affect Robert Mugabe personally and the leaders of ZANU-PF. I shall remember your ringing endorsement of this great and newly elected "Marxist Socialist" Leader - a view not shared by the people of Zimbabwe, but I am sure that you EmmaB know much better.

"Left alone, and I mean without Western sanctions and Western iterference, the situation will sort itself out." - Akenaton

Yes my little heilan' anarchist the situation will no doubt indeed sort itself out, just as it did in Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo and just as it is in the process of "sorting itself out" in Darfur and in Burma. But remember this Akenaton and all the other fellow travelers, particularly alanabit, take a good look at whose hands are involved and who stands to gain most from this shoddy trail of human suffering - Each and every one with their rock solid "socialist/communist/left-wing" credentials pushed to the fore, all complete and utter cant and hypocrisy of course but that is what it always is, that is what "socialism" always has been - One big massive con. While studying the areas of abject suffering in the world today, take a good look at how often Russia and China crop up in the mix - Then take a damn good look at what their international aid contributions are, then remember that for every 60 people on this planet there is one AK-47 courtesy of those "communist" regimes Akenaton and others so much admire.

When Dianavan, and others on this Forum, go off into their little pet rants about "big bad western oil companies" and all of Bush's supposed "oil-friends" - Lump them all together and they control less than 7% of the global oil industry, all the rest is owned nationally. Now tell me who is it that benefits from maintaining a high price of crude oil per barrel again?

"The whole Western economic system in meltdown" - Really Akenaton? I somehow doubt it, but your dire prediction? Take a good look back through time Akenaton, how many times has that been predicted before? We've had booms before and we've had recessions, everything on this earth cyclical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:30 AM

'South Africa welcomed the decision of the United Nations Security Council not to impose sanctions against Zimbabwe, foreign affairs said today.
Spokesman Ronnie Mamoepa said SA voted against the draft resolution yesterday, in accordance with the African Union (AU) Summit of head of states
The AU summit in Egypt had appealed to states and all parties concern to refrain from any action that could negatively impact on the climate for dialogue.'

from todays S.A.Times


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 04:03 AM

The whole Western economic system in meltdown and you're still whininng about Mugabe!
Left alone, and I mean without Western sanctions and Western iterference, the situation will sort itself out.

The whole affair is being hyped to divert attentioin from what is about to happen in UK/US.

Nationalise the banks and mortgage companies??......Well well Teribus, looks like we're going to be the "New Commies"....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM

That organization is as irrelevent as (you know what) on Boar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:41 PM

I do not think anyone will be surprised to see Russia and China unwilling to condemn the thug Mugabe. Mind you, who are we to condemn China when politicians of all political colours have toadied up so disgustingly to the butchers of Tiannemen Square? As long as Mugabe at least mouths "left wing" slogans, he will be safe from any condemnation by China. Of course, there could be business interests too... very "left wing"...

I wonder if the US and Britain might suddenly become interested in the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia if they were suddenly to have a "left wing" revolution? Just food for thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

Well so much for the UN

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7502965.stm

Although I must admit, I didn't really expect anything else from this useless talking shop, lets here it for the UN, Russia and China, you certainly won't hear any vocal comdemnation of them on this Forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:17 PM

Oh, there are always potential solutions to endemic problems in any country. The question is, are the people in positions of power there willing to employ those solutions and initiate positive changes...or would they rather just continue doing what they are already accustomed to doing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM

Hans,

just twigged that you're in the uk ...

"It simply doesn't work like that out there"

That is exactly what the brits used to say about the Irish.



It is a political problem with a political solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:22 PM

Has Mugabe signed the impeach GWB petition?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:57 PM

I think that Teribus and Hans are both being quite realistic about the situation over there.

I know a number of white South Africans who regretfully finally left the land of their birth which they loved dearly and moved to Canada, simply because life got way too dangerous in South Africa. After having survived violent incidents and nearly losing their lives, they decided they had to get out.

If I was in their place, I'd have done the same...though I would certainly hate to have to flee my own country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM

Funny, but i found myself agreeing with much of what teribus had to say in both his last posts.

And I have also found myself listening to what hans has to say.

Both have identified problems that need to be overcome.

I am istening now because both are engaging with the isssue rather than just casting aspersions about political stereotypes on the one hand or racial stereotypes on the other.

I think if hans had a chance to step outside the perspective he is wrapped up in he might see that the siege mentality amongst South African Whites, both "British" and "Afrikaans" is not just a matter of attitude or a practical approach to security, but derives from inherited misperceptions of Africans in the first place.

But more relevantly, on the point of investment and initiative, South African business is deeply conservative.

I am informed that in south africa broadband is so expensive that it is cheaper to fly to Hong Kong and download software in an internet cafe than it is to download it using a personal broadband connection.

I am curious to know if Hans is on broasband or dial up ...

The wealthy parts of South Africa are technologically advanced enough for this not to be the case, yet if you check out a website for your average SA business you find that e.commerce is woefully underdeveloped.

The reason for this is a stubborn self preserving change resisting mindset.

Black involvement in commerce in south africa is increasing at a snails pace as there are big incentives for businesses who are prepared to work with black partners or do business with black traders.

But generally white businesses are very suspicious of involving or doing business with blacks as a direct result of the view that blacks aren't capable of "organizing a piss up in a brewery" to use a british colloquialism.

The money is in the white areas, and so are the international contacts. There are areas of praetoria and other cities where you can walk around and not see hide nor hair a black person.

If you do, it is instantly assumed that they are there to steal something.

Sadly, because Whites have made sure there is no other possible reason why they could be there, it is often true.


what is my point ... ahh yes ...

Imagination ...

Innovation ...

Thinking outside the box ...



If white south africans wish to have a future in Africa, they need to break the siege mentality for their own sake. You cannot just put the wagons in a ring and ride the storm.

It's the ring of wagns that will be their downfall.

They have to look for opportunities and learn to move with the times.

And learn to work with each other trustfully (British and Afrikaans as well as blacks asians and coloureds.)

interesting to note that the chinese have recently managed to have themselves categorized as blacks as it gives them advantages in business. If white south africans had the same sense of adventure as the chinese they might just be able to assist in the creating a more positive future for themselves and their multicoloured brethren.

Let me guess hans, british south africans just can't handle meat the way you afrikaaners can eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:09 PM

I do agree with Terribus that Angola and Mozambique show positive signs of emerging from their uncivil wars. Both countries have rich mineral resources that could fuel economic growth and their recent elections demonstrated respect for the democratic process.

Of course, South Africa under its previous administration played a key role in prolonging the civil wars in both countries, and the Soviet Union, China, as well as the United States were all actively involved in supporting the three opposing factions in Angola.

I'm encouraged that both countries have managed achieve so much in recent years.

I do wonder if the UN aid programs are as poorly administered as Terribus and Hans suggest. I don't know and it's all too easy to critique major international programs because of examples of local corruption. I'm more interested in the general pattern.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:39 PM

There are some people don't seem to like the comments Teribus and I have made on this thread. I am not going to knock any of you for it, but I fully agree with the comments Teribus has contributed to the thread. He has proven to be a realist.

Does overseas aid make it to those who need it? the simple answer is No. There is more frustration among relief workers in South Africa than anywhere else. I met two(here in England)not while in SA.

They said most of the aid is channelled through government departments and the militias are fed from it first. They hold vase stockpiles of everything, including clothing, bedding and medical supplies. Only a fraction reaches it's intended target and that goes to those who support the government. If your hungry, you soon change your allegiance. They said it was rumoured that considerable quantities of aid was actually sold by the militias to neighbouring countries.

Not exactly what any of you that contributed expected.

Slam the ass of me if you wish, but nothing will ever change in Zimbabwe. Mugabe has his followers (not all of them live in fear). If he was whacked in the morning there would be another one to take his place.

I understand so many of you live in hope and speak in a logical sense with reference to Ireland and other countries that took the course of democracy instead of the use of the gun. It simply doesn't work like that out there. I know some of the unconventional parties in Ireland may have nudged the odd postal vote their direction, but they didn't visit areas the weeks leading up to the elections and hack their point across with machetes.

Tribal influence is strong in SA. You will never see an overseas government become involved in their politics at ground level. They would get nowhere and never get out.

Say what you wish about my dim view of the situation, but it's how it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:04 PM

Excuse me MrT, but exactly what do you mean by...."fully realise their potential".....or have you just lapsed into "politicianspeak" again?....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM

All well and good if the money given by individual charitable donation or by Governments in the form of overseas development aid actually ever gets through to those who actually need it.

I would venture to guess that very little of it ever does. So whether donations are curtailed, which remains to be seen, it will make very little difference on the ground as it were.

One thing of course should happen with any aid package in the future, and that is that from now on they come with strings firmly attached, they are to be administered by the donor country, not one penny is placed where any of these robbing thugs can get their hands on it, and the programmes dispensing this aid come with full publicity that:

"This aid is brought to you by the government and people of ...........(Insert name of donor country)"

I feel that Zimbabwe is beyond help, Mugabe and his cohorts will tear it apart just as Pol Pot attempted to tear apart Cambodia in order to rebuild it in whatever image is required.

South Africa will go the same way, the process is already a great deal further down the track than many think. The two countries in that region that may well fully realise their potential are Angola (potentially the richest country in the world) and Mozambique, both of which have already gone through the birth pains quite some time ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

Lox-

Oh, I don't know. I might even make a song up with what you've provided.

"When you starve with a closet shark, the closet shark starves last!"

You may quote me!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:15 PM

George,

"but I see a rising tide of opinion that looks ugly."

I share this view.

Let us not be hasty in jumping to conclusions, but I harbour a fear that the current economic climate, combined with the current political swing in the UK away from the left, may result in some of the uglier right wingers who have kept their heads below the surface so to speak, coming out of their closets and espousing all sorts of crass perspectives on issues like this.

(Excuse my mixing of metaphors there - unless you like the image of the sea being full of drifting closets each containing a partially submerged right winger all about to wash up on the shore ... I thought not ...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:14 AM

"Wouldn't it be better to direct some criticism at the wealthy nations who_________"

There is no shortage of such criticism, belive me. I am trying for some balance. Just think of the good Kofi Anan could have done if he were a man of high principle. Instead, he diverted 3 billion dollars from the mis-named Oil For Food program and gave most to his African friends. Lots to himself too, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM

Pdq-

"The UN is best at gathering huge amounts of money and giving it to themselves and their friends"

You may be correct but you may also just be repeating the kind of cynical nonsense that undercuts the efforts of a lot of very dedicated and well-trained staff. Wouldn't it be better to direct some criticism at the wealthy nations who pledge hundreds of millions of dollars and then don't follow through on their pledges? I think a better case could be made for doing that.

Charley Noble, more cynical than you could ever imagine


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Call me idealist, pdq; but the EU and the UN have at least been more vocal in their condemnation (than the African Union). I think they were right to stand back and give the AU a chance, which the latter has squandered, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:53 AM

"I expect better of the UN and the EU..."

Why? Their track record is dismal when it comes to anything important. The UN is best at gathering huge amounts of money and giving it to themselves and their friends. No need for such leaders to upset such a good thing by attacking tyrants.That could get a bit messy, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:45 AM

I expect better of the UN and the EU, Teribus. But there's something else that worries me: On a number of newspaper websites (which is where I get my news these days) the "readers' comments" that follow each article show a great number of people taking the attitude "if the Africans can't sort out their own business, then I will think twice before donating/volunteering etc next time there is a call for help from them"...

It's totally the wrong attitude of course, as it is likely to penalise the poorest for the inadequacies of their leaders, but I see a rising tide of opinion that looks ugly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:24 AM

Well so much for the African Union, they really showed him, in all probability the reaction will be the same from the EU and from the UN, and life will go on, or not in the case that you live in Zimbabwe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

Well then lets hope they have the bottle to be seen doing the right thing despite any minor political damage it might cause them personally.

The benefits must surely outweigh the drawbacks - even in terms of reputation.

I think everyone overestimates his power including himself and they should refuse as a block to be blackmailed.

They should be less worried about dirty fingers and more about dirty noses!


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

Today at the African Union conference Mugabe quicklu announced that he would be taken careful not of any dirty fingers that are pointed at him.


in other words, many of the leaders there are in office because of very undemocratic methods. he will rat them out if they rat him out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

16 Tons

Go to the polls
and what do you get
another armed soldier
who beats you to death

Tell St Peter
that I can't go
I owe my soul to
Mugabe's state store.

This election
takes after George Bush
yet without elect tronics
the election is crushed

Tell the whole world
that Mugabe's lost
but he won't leave office
were all double crossed


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

But they all have one thing in common - they don't want to see their friends and family murdered, tortured, starving etc.

Paranoia is the demon to exorcise. Noone trusts anyone else.

Noone trusts seemingly empty asurances that seem ultimately to bear no fruit.

Blacks are saying "we thought life was supposed to get better for us when apartheid was removed. We thought we would become enfranchised and our quality of life would be improved"

Whites are sayin "see - just look at them - we told you this is how it would be - they're savages"

The thing for you hans is to find initiatives that are going on and critically learn about them and if you fnd one that is explained to your satisfaction, get behind it.

The emphasis has to be on leadership and initiative and working hard to give people real practical reasons to feel that it isn't stupid or naive to be optimistic.

community projects encouraging enterprise - not just in wealthy white areas but in the more challenging areas.

Investment in projects and enterprises that can help the commuinty regain a sense of self esteem and encourage peoples hopes and aspirations.

Lobbying to encourage a crackdown on corruption in government and public services.

In India the Caste system was outlawed with varying levels of success and with varying measures of consequence, but it still serves as evidence of how it is possible to tackle deep seated cultural prejudice.

A clear strategy to deal with the short term threats posed by the gangs - bearing in mind that this kind of stuff is a symptom of disenfranchisement and poverty.

what else ... I dunno - I typed that at 100 miles an hour - the point is that you have to start somewhere and you have to start with belief.

You have to set realistic goals and work step by step towards a better future.

It may take 25 years in SA or 15 in Zimbabwe, but it CAN happen!


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM

We are dealing with so many factions here it will be very difficult to get all to agree with any solution put on the table. It is centuries old, believe me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

Some of my historical perceptions of the Boar wars in South Africa were revised by transcribing the jingoistic youthful poetry of Cicely Fox Smith who followed the last campaign avidly, commemorating each battle with a poem while never acknowledging that there might be more than a British side to the issue of truth and justice. Her war poems in World War 1 were similarly one-sided, characterizing the Germans as ruthless subhumans.

War is inherently ruthless, and civil war is inherently uncivil! To understand it's root causes, one really needs to know more about the political leadership of the warring countries or factions, the economy they are operating in, and their history.

Lox-

I've been thinking about re-visiting Ethiopia, where I taught in the Peace Corps in the early 1960's. Whether I go or not will involve a careful weighing of what the political situation appears to be. I have no interest in endangering the lives of former students (those who have survived), no interest in becoming a hostage or being murdered in some dark alley or rural road. The window for such a re-visit opens and closes very rapidly, but it may be reopening for a period this fall. It's much safer by far to gaze at the landscape via Google-Earth, and just wonder!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 06:53 AM

Hey Hans,

Something else that john hume of Northern Ireland used to say when arguing the need for a political solution ...

"What is the alternative?"

Beware of self fulfilling prophecies.

As for strong groups of friends - if you walk in to the wrong part of johannesburg with a large group of friends you'll just be presenting richer pickings.

There was a BBC interview recently with a gang in a township - I've forgotten which one - the investigative journalist asking the questions was John Simpson.

The film crew left after about 5 minutes because the gang had started discussing how much they could get for the cameras.

They're armed to the teeth and if there are more of you it'll just result in more people getting killed.

It's a terribly sad reality but it can be changed for the better.

I think it needs a more decisive leader than Mbeki though. He mkes Gordon Brown look passionate and dynamic by comparison.


"Jungle Bunnies"

Yes I remember that term of abuse too. A british one in my experience. There are very few British left who would use that term unless in the most ironic way.

It's so dated that its impact as a term of abuse is laughable, conjuring up images of sad witless BNP supporters instead.

... *sigh* ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:05 AM

I don't think anyone expects a perfect solution Hans. I believe that imperfect people (black and white) will work towards an imperfect solution, which will at any rate be an improvement on the current situation.
If you bear in mind the bitterness in Ireland and the Balkans over the past thirty years, it is enormous progress that they currently have a little stability. We like to think that peace agreements and nogotiated settlements solve the problems forever. In fact they are just steps on the way to whatever else is emerging. I don't think I want to see the process stop though. We have lived to see the end of the Viet Nam War, the Cold War, the Ireland conflict and the Iran/Iraq war. New monsters have inevitably raised their heads, but that is no reason to give up on progress now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:51 AM

Charley, there is truth in what you say, I cannot disagree with you,it really is a mess and there will never be a solution in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 09:38 PM

Mugabe's days are numbered small. It won't be long before some of his military people decide to take him out so they can appease international opinion and continue to feather their own nest. Whether they are swept away in the unrest that follows is open to question.

Hans-

I'm willing to assume that you know more about the Black on Black violence in South Africa than I do, and I'm sure there are neighborhoods even in Cape Town where it would not be safe for you or I to go without a strong group of friends. As an outsider I do find reason for optimism that the official policy of the South African Government is reconciliation, however imperfect the results may be. The alternative, continued apartheid, seems indefensible to me and I would have expected greater bloodbath if apartheid had continued to be the rule. Do you disagree? I wish you well but I also wish you would acknowledge the injustice that was done for centuries against the Black peoples of South Africa. Most of us in the States are willing to acknowledge our role in subjugating Black Africans within a slave economy. And our goal should be to work ourselves toward a more free and just nation for all.

Charley Noble


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