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BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'

GUEST,suffering in Zimbabwe 18 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM
GUEST,suffering in Zimbabwe 18 Jun 08 - 07:43 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 18 Jun 08 - 08:10 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 18 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM
Teribus 19 Jun 08 - 02:06 AM
alanabit 19 Jun 08 - 03:02 AM
Zen 19 Jun 08 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,lox 19 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM
GUEST,lox 19 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,lox 19 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM
Mr Happy 19 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM
Leadfingers 19 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM
Teribus 19 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Cats 19 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM
Goose Gander 19 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM
alanabit 19 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM
Leadfingers 19 Jun 08 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,lox 19 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 19 Jun 08 - 10:35 PM
Rapparee 19 Jun 08 - 10:42 PM
Teribus 20 Jun 08 - 12:20 AM
Charley Noble 20 Jun 08 - 11:49 PM
George Papavgeris 21 Jun 08 - 07:09 AM
alanabit 21 Jun 08 - 08:15 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,lox 22 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM
alanabit 23 Jun 08 - 08:17 AM
Charley Noble 23 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM
Dave Hanson 24 Jun 08 - 01:52 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Jun 08 - 03:32 AM
GUEST,Hans 24 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM
alanabit 24 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Jun 08 - 09:00 AM
alanabit 24 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Hans 24 Jun 08 - 11:59 AM
Teribus 24 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Jun 08 - 12:40 PM
alanabit 24 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,lox 24 Jun 08 - 04:16 PM
Peace 24 Jun 08 - 04:19 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,lox 24 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,lox 24 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM
Teribus 24 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,lox 24 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM
Peace 25 Jun 08 - 01:07 AM
akenaton 25 Jun 08 - 04:12 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Jun 08 - 04:42 AM
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Subject: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,suffering in Zimbabwe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM

I'm intrigued to see so many threads here about Bush/Iraq/Iran/Arab/Israeli/..... issues (and many with legitimate arguements), yet not a single voice raised about the despicable situation in Zimbabwe.

So what ARE your views on the situation, given the crucial run up to the voting at the end of June?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,suffering in Zimbabwe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:43 PM

arguments


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:10 PM

GUEST--Which despicable situation do you refer to? The confiscation of farms with the catastrophic drop in food production? The economy breaking inflation? The lack of fair elections by the ruling powers or Mugabe's refusal to allow the winners to take office?

You said it. It is all despicable. And perhaps more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM

Sorry, I read your post but not the title...but my comments remain the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:06 AM

Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:02 AM

It is an appalling situation with another brutal, mad dictator. My view is that open resitance from good people will simply lead to more deaths of good people. Too many good lives have already been wasted. For the time being, those people must stay alive so that they can rebuild the country when Mugabe has gone. He is an old man and his tyranny can not last for many more years. There is a case for diplomatic and possibly economic action by other countries. However, I fear that any direct interference in Zimbabwe's affairs would result in even more tragedy for that unhappy country. Mugabe has announced that opponents may not vote for the opposition and he has every intention of enforcing that. He would not recognise an opposition victory, even if it were to win the election (which it won't). The regime will eventually collapse because eventually too few people will actively support it. That has happened in other countries and I believe it will happen in Zimbabwe. These are terrible days, but they will pass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Zen
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:16 AM

I agree with all that Alan said. It is a brutal regime and Tabo Mbeki's refusal to try and influence change is appalling as well.

These are terrible days, but they will pass.

Yes... probably and certainly I hope so. But unfortunately not in time for my friend Patience, a talented medical researcher and warm human being, who died there last year at only 39.

Zen


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM

"Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum."

Apart from all those links at the top ...

Desperate to score cheap points, Teribus yet again planted his foot firmly in his mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

here's one

here's another


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

and another


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

I had a quick peek here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwae to check out natural resources.

None mentioned, so I guess if there's no oil etc there, then there prob won't be a global outcry?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

Well as old Ebagum said in Rome that ALL the problems in Zimbawe are Great Britains fault , as a citizen of said Colonial Power I darent comment in case the bastard sends some of his thugs after me !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Eh What links on the top Guest Lox?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM

***This has to be actioned today***

Next Monday (23 June) Wellington Chibebe and Lovemore
Matombo of the Zimbabwean Congress of Trade Unions are due to stand
trial, having been arrested last month for supposedly 'spreading
falsehoods prejudicial to the state'.
Their arrest means that Mugabe has effectively succeeded in silencing
them for most of the re-run Presidential election campaign, as a
condition of their bail (which they were initially refused) has banned them from appearing in public or making public statements.
On the day of the trial, the TUC and ACTSA will be showing support for Wellington and Lovemore outside the Zimbabwean Embassy on the Strand by creating a giant mosaic of their faces, made up (we hope) of 2,000 tiny supporters' faces from around the world.
If Wellington and Lovemore are banned from appearing in public, we want thousands of people to show solidarity and help them 'appear' at the London demo and in other demos that will be happening around the world. The plan is to use the picture to get more attention on the demo and in the media.
But, and this is the difficult part, we only have three days to get hold of all the photos, and this is not going to be easy.
If you would like to feature as a tiny part of the big mosaic, send a photo of yourself, by email to zim@tuc.org.uk or MMS a cameraphone
snap to 07546 229055.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

"Your vote is your bullet"


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

I had already read that article. The fact is that the opposition is facing a two headed penny. If they win the election (which I think is unlikely given ZANU-PF's systematic cheating and intimidation) they will still not be allowed to assume power. If they "lose" it, it will be claimed by Mugabe as "legitimising" him. What the MDC has got is time. I don't think Mr.Mugabe has as much of that as he would like to think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:16 PM

And then 'Someone' has murdered the wife of the Mayor of Harare and burnt his house to the ground !

Some Hopes of a fair election!


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

A fair election has nothing to do with it.

It's about having nothing to lose.

Keep him - suffer ...

Vote against him - suffer ...

but hopefully start a slow avalanche.

Tsvangirai will probably die in this.

The west should step in before it happens.

But they will probably wait and use his death as the excuse, holding him up as a martyr.

And then stick in the next puppet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:35 PM

"Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum."

Wanna bet?

I would love to see the UN mount a full-scale invasion of Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen because Mr. Bush has committed every available US troop to his senseless personal vendetta run amok in Iraq, and a UN police action without US involvement is dead in the water.

Is that hammery enough for ya?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:42 PM

Ask China to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 12:20 AM

"I would love to see the UN mount a full-scale invasion of Zimbabwe" - Read the UN Charter for starters, then you would know that what you've said is impossible. Next review the active participant track record of the UN and you will see what you've said is impossible.

"that's not going to happen because Mr. Bush has committed every available US troop to his senseless personal vendetta run amok in Iraq," - For a start US troops are present in both Iraq and Afghanistan operating under UN Mandates. Secondly, the level of troops committed amounts to 17% of US total strength - Every available US troop indeed.

If you are going to come out with such Bee-dubya-ell - less emotive crap and more fact. Such as the US and UK has done more to raise the profile of what has happened, and what is happening, in Zimbabwe than most other countries, oh, and George W. Bush and his administration has tried harder than any other to get the UN to shift itself off its big soft lard-assed butt over Darfur than any other.

"a UN police action without US involvement is dead in the water"
Maybe it would have been better for the people of Zimbabwe and Darfur if the US & UK had acted unilaterally in both cases - Oh, but hang on you lot are against that when they've done it in the past.

As Rap says get China to do it, possibly with the assistance of France, Germany and Russia. At least with a couple of those participants captured weaponry could be used as it was them that supplied it in both cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:49 PM

We did have another long thread on Zimbabwe a month or so ago, after the initial election.

No sane person would expect a "fair and free" election in Zimbabwe this time around.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 07:09 AM

A major issue here, and I think one of the reasons why external force has not been contemplated, is the impact/influence/relationships with the rest of the Southern African countries, many of which until recently followed Mbeki's appeasement. There is a strong sense that any lasting solution must be an "African" solution, it must come from, and involve, Zimbambwe's neighbours. Yesterday for the first time Tanzania and the rest came out openly to criticise Mugabe, leaving Mbeki alone to bleat about giving his old pal more time.

It is important that Tsvangirai does not withdraw, as he is considering doing right now. We will know on Monday. But any force applied to the situation must be local, or we could be facing a UN presence there for 10 years or more, trying to sort out the aftermath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 08:15 AM

I disagree George. I think Tsvangirai must withdraw to save as many of the lives of his supporters as he possibly can. He has no chance of winning and being recognised as a winner. Mugabe has already announced that. Zimbabwe will not become a democracy until the post Mugabe era at the earliest. Tsvangirai must also face up to likely imprisonment until the end of Mugabe's reign. For the time being, he must do his best to keep both himself and as many of his supporters as possible alive. There have been quite enough heroic gestures already. Any more would be futile. Those people will be needed in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

Mugabe WINS again!
Per Reuters, owing to violence and thuggery associated with Mugabe's party, his runoff opponent has today dropped out of the Presidential election.

Comment: 'res ipsa loquitir.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

Mugabe gave him an implicit ultimatum:

Give up or I'll kill your supporters.

If Tsvangirai was the egomaniac that Mugabe is he might have carried on with his Glorious campaign.

But the difference between them is that Tsvangirai doesn't see other peoples lives as currency with which to make political gambles.

He had to withdraw.

The people have no food, let alone the resources to support any kind of uprising.

Mugabe has crushed them underfoot as revenge for embarrassing him at the last election.

Tsvagirai is right, it is a war between Mugabe and the Zimbabwean people, waged with economic sanctions and violence.

Mbeki is a spineless toad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 08:17 AM

It's a pretty hollow "victory", although I would say that Tsvangirai has made the only responsible choice. Committing suicide rarely helps a cause. Mugabe says "only God" can remove him. Perhaps a few of the more religious Mudcatters might prevail upon their Guvnor to expedite the process...


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Things will get worse before they get better.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:52 AM

Morgan Tsvangirai has taken refuge in the Dutch Embassy, wise decision, Mugabe would surely have had him killed, he still may.

eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:32 AM

Just as it was not legitimately the place of the USA to free the people of Iraq (and look where it got the people of Iraq when the USA did so!), it is not the position of countries other than Zimbabwe to rid the world of Mugabe.

Nonetheless, it might be legitimate to ask why anyone should, as they do, apparently seek to resist his removal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

It is their culture, their land and their choice. Let them get on with it. Just remember when as usual it all goes tits up and someone arrives on your tv screen with the begging bowl, it was their choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

Their choice? The Zimbabweans currently have the choice of either voting in Mugabe for another five years of cruelty and incompetence, or else waiting for the knock on the door in the night. Would you like that sort of "choice" where you live Hans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 09:00 AM

I think Hans may have been attempting sarcasm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

I hope so. Unfortunately I really have met people, who are that callous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:59 AM

Do you honestly understand their culture ? Please give me the name of one country in Africa that has either made a successful go at independence or is capable of democracy ?

Exactly, none.

We will be asked to put our hand in our pocket for the next one hundred years to feed these nations. Has Live Aid Helped ? has millions of pounds of overseas aid helped ? It hasn't even made a dent in the standard of living of those counties.

You can see from the newsreels their armies run the latest four wheel drives and weaponry, where does the money come from for that ?

At the end of the day it is the responsibly for the government of these counties to see to the needs of their people. Tribal leaders call the shots in the majority of them. We can never change centuries of tradition.

I may not agree with these tin pot dictators, but I know none of us will never change these countries. Leave them to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

"For the time being, those people must stay alive so that they can rebuild the country when Mugabe has gone. He is an old man and his tyranny can not last for many more years."

I believe that in this day and age what is written above is rather fanciful. The rule of ZANU-PF in Zimbabwe will continue until such time as it is overthrown by force. Mugabe has not the sole architect of Zimbabwe's demise, he has been ably assisted by ZANU-PF's upper echelons, who even if Mugabe were to die tomorrow would have a vested interest in keeping hold of the reins of power in that sad country. I dare say amongst the 150 named faithful, enthusiastic and loyal lieutenants there will be some that are even more extreme than Bob.

"There is a case for diplomatic and possibly economic action by other countries."

Damn right there is, after 27th June, no representative of this "governing cabal of thugs", their wives, or their children, should be recognised anywhere on this earth. The second any of them set foot outside Zimbabwe they should be turned straight round and sent back. Any overseas assets should not only be frozen but seized and placed in an internationally held fund and kept for the day they have gone. Not a single penny in aid to any country giving succour or any vestage of legitimacy to Mugabe's regime. SADC countries should be swamped with MDC refugees from Zimbabwe seeking political asylum. When they have that lot to feed, house and clothe, then maybe they just might be willing to consider some way of aiding them in getting rid of Marxist Mugabe and ZANU-PF for good.

I have found it interesting reading comments in the British press where people are clamouring for military intervention on the part of the US and the UK. The self same people who objected so vociferously when the same parties intervened in Afghanistan and Iraq to affect regime change. To them I would only say this, The Taliban and Saddam Hussein's reign of terror in Afghanistan and Iraq respectively, makes Mugabe's antics in Zimbabwe look like the efforts of a Boy Scout.

The UN of course will do what it does best - Nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

Well, when I think about just how messed up things are here in the USA with Bush all I have to do is think about how terribly things are messed up in Zimbabwe... I mean, seriously messed up...

If it hadn't been for Bush's insistence on pushing the UN into a corner on Iraq the UN and the US could use its power for situations like this but Iraq has kinda messed things up in that respect and folks are reluctant to act internationally not only in Zimbabwe but Sudan...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:40 PM

Gosh, it seems Hans does not do sarcasm. No, I can't think of a well-run African country either (offhand), but I'm not sure that justifies leaving millions to die - but on the other hand is there anything that justifies one country interfering in the solely internal affairs of another? What would the proponents of "international action" say if the situation were reversed, and the UN had wished to intervene after (hypothetical) electoral corruption in the USA, or the UK? What was done about electoral corruption in former USSR countries? Why is intervention only justified if the target country is African or Asian led?


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

I think it is rather fanciful to refer to Mugabe as a "Marxist", but we have done that one on another thread, without making much progress. Otherwise, I am in agreement with every word of of Teribus's arguments in favour of diplomatic and possibly economic action by other countries. That can be done and it must be done.

Whereas I take the point that Mugabe is not the only murderous thug in Zimbabwe, I have every confidence that the regime will duly collapse. I believe I will live to see it.

The situation is horrible, but like many other posters here, I believe it could actually be made worse by miltary intervention - especially by a Western country. Possibly the only way one could have made Iraq less safe was by attempting "regime change" the way we did in 2003. Interference in other countries' internal affairs is letting a genie out of a bottle, which you can't easily put back there. Getting rid of Mugabe in itself would not be difficult. Replacing him with a duly elected leader, who had a genuine mandate from the people, would be a different matter entirely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:16 PM

My dear Hans ...

I think you are right.

It would be great if these countries were left alone to do their own thing.

No really.

If They were allowed to ... say ... have ownership of their own resources ...

... diamonds ... oil ...

If children weren't exploited from egypt to south africa by western companies ...

if usefully corrupt governments weren't propped up by western interests and bribes in order to ensure a nice fatt flow of income from africa to europe and the US ... and now China ...

Africa is being rinsed out like an old cloth.

Political independance was an illusion for most of africa and it is that reality that monsters like Mugabe are able to distort to justify their crimes.

Yes. The west should leave africa alone to sort itself out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:19 PM

"Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum."

I also saw it didn't raise any objections from those who DO support Bush. That aside, my government is in receipt of an e-mail from me asking what Canada is doing. FYI!


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

"The rule of ZANU-PF in Zimbabwe will continue until such time as it is overthrown by force."

Dead right. I suspect that such force will eventually be found within Zimbabwe itself...that usually happens at some point in a country with a government as insane as this one is. (Although, in the case of the Khymer Rouge it took a Vietnamese invasion to bring them down.)

In the meantime I think that the international community should apply exactly the kind of financial and diplomatic pressure Teribus has suggested. If no one was willing to do business with that government, it would soon fall.

Burma (Myanmar) comes to mind as well in that respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

An interesting twist in the tale could be that the people, unaware that tsvangirai has pulled out, might take their courage in their hands and vote for tsvangirai anyway, in which case there may still be the possibility that he wins more votes anyway.

Unlikely I know, but possible nonetheless.

In which case Mugabes nose would be well and truly rubbed in the dirt.

After losing a rigged election, he could end up losing another rigged election in which he is the only candidate.

I would laugh and laugh and laugh ...

God help them!


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

"In the meantime I think that the international community should apply exactly the kind of financial and diplomatic pressure Teribus has suggested. If no one was willing to do business with that government, it would soon fall."

Sorry LH, but there is no sanction on earth that could worsen the ecomonic situation in Zimbabwe.

150,000% inflation?

It's already at a point far beyond that which sanctions could ever pretend to contrive.

And as I understand it there are already sanctions on Burma.

When you have all thhe guns and all the money the people don't stand much chance.

Force may be on the cards already. It seems like jaded MDC youths may be staring to turn to violence.

Sticks and stones are no match for guns though.

The ANC are speaking out in SA, the pressure on Mbeki is a key factor.

Te emphasis on his "consent" is too much, but it seems that it will be the thing that gives legitimacy to intervention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

The inflation simply hurts the ordinary people. I'm suggesting financial and diplomatic actions that would directly affect the ruling elite in that country and make things very tough for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

The measures to be taken are not sanctions aimed at Zimbabwe. The actions that should be taken are aimed at stripping Mugabe and his ZANU-PF cohorts of their ill-gotten gains, rob them of their wealth. The sanctions should also be levelled at any country giving Mugabe's regime any sort of legitimacy whatsoever, they then have a rather stark choice to make, prop up a thief and a murderer, or stand with the rest of the international community.

I heard a report that Australia has already withdrawn educational/school priveleges for children of Zimbabwe's ruling ZANU-PF elite and requested that they return home. I have seen no confirmation of this, but it sends home the right sort of signal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM

The point of sanctions is to put pressure on the government by creating economic discontent among the people.

Unhappy people put pressure on their government.

Seeing people in poverty puts pressure on governments.

Mugabe couldn't give two hoots about the people of Zimbabwe.

He and his military cronies are only concerned that whatever wealth does exist in Zimbabwe belongs to them.

And they'll make sure their nests are feathered at whatever cost to the people.

I agree that action needs to be taken against Mugabe, and I agree that Australia are right to do what they have done. Hopefully the African nations will follow suit.

The solution lies with Mbeki and he won't do anything until he's sure about not being seen to be a mouthpiece for white south africans sympathetic to white zimbabwean farmers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:07 AM

Their overseas bank accounts ought to be frozen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:12 AM

A lot of hypocrisy here by the same right wingers who condemned the anti apartheit demonstrators all those years ago!
The people who suported successive White South African regimes or Smith's UDI should be barred from this discussion.
Perhaps, looking long term, the Zimbabwian people have in Mugabe the lesser of two evils.

What will Western style "democracy" bring to the Zimbabwians? It will destroy their cultural freedom and turn then into economic slaves, just like their shackled forebearers and just like us!
Especially in the hands of Mr Tsvangirai, a man so inspired by the democratic process, that he was caught on camera some years ago plotting with Western interests the assasination of Mr Mugabe.

Who are we to lecture Mugabe while we cause the deaths of millions worldwide for our own very undemocratic interests?
Why the obsession with Mugabe when millions die of starvation in other parts of Africa?
I smell a rat...and it's not just Teribus...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:42 AM

I too have less than certainty in Morgan Tsvangirai, but a local assassination of Mugabe (who, obviously, is not a Marxist in action) seems a good idea. Democracy there is broken and means of democratic change are unavailable. It seems to me that regarding Mugabe as the lesser of two evils is to look at him through rose tinted spectacles.

Nonetheless what Ake says about the imposition of Western democracy has some validity - but to fail to distinguish between democracy as such and Western democracy as an example is to make the same error that many do when they point to the USSR as a communist regime.


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